Wow, that’s horrible to read. So sad for the guy, but he really can’t carry on. Time for the cabinet to call the 25th amendment on him, and then work out how to deal with the Kamala problem?
Post #54223 predicting the political death of Joe Biden.
I'd expected this forum to be full of betting posts given Biden is still heavily odds on to be the Democratic candidate. I've done some, but in truth amazed he has not completely collapsed.
Post #54224
Unless he actually dies he's going nowhere.
That's possibly true.
He's run a pretty successful administration despite one of the least cooperative Congresses in history. And there's no obvious way of replacing him.
On the other hand, Robert Hur has successfully Comey-ed him. With (as with Hillary Clinton) the enthusiastic co-operation of the "liberal media".
It's not easy to predict how this plays out.
There is a relatively easy way of replacing him with Harris, but that is likely worse electorally.
Yeah if he is going to be replaced, it'll be Harris. It's the leap people make (Some of them seemingly on Betfair) to Gavin Newsom and Michelle Obama that's utterly hilarious.
Obama is different as well. If she wanted the job and Biden and Harris don't, then I think everyone else stands aside for her in a way that doesn't apply to anyone else.
But Biden wants it. Harris wants it. And Obama doesn't. So the acca of those three all reversing is a very big price.
OT. Yesterday I recommended the brilliant documentary '20 days in Mariupol' which I described as 'the likely Oscar winner but a difficult watch' ..........
Well the morning after I'd amend that to 'a documentary that you might want to think twice about watching'.
It's pretty unbearable in parts and certain scenes are difficult to get out of your head
Our most recent poll, carried out on the 7th and 8th of February 2024, indicates minor changes in the political landscape. The Labour Party’s support has seen a slight decrease, while the Conservative Party has experienced a small uptick. The Liberal Democrats, Reform Party, Greens, SNP, and other parties have maintained their levels of support since our last poll.
The current figures, set against the previous poll from the 2nd February 2024, are as follows:
Our most recent poll, carried out on the 7th and 8th of February 2024, indicates minor changes in the political landscape. The Labour Party’s support has seen a slight decrease, while the Conservative Party has experienced a small uptick. The Liberal Democrats, Reform Party, Greens, SNP, and other parties have maintained their levels of support since our last poll.
The current figures, set against the previous poll from the 2nd February 2024, are as follows:
Biden to make surprise address Joe Biden will deliver a speech at 7.45pm (12:45am GMT), the White House has announced, in a last-minute addition to his schedule for the day.
And it's a catastrophe. Biden shouting at reporters saying he's not senile.... then immediately confuses Mexico with Egypt
He's fucked. Biden is finished. That's it
The Dems have a stark choice, proceed with Biden and face a very probable defeat to Trump - or, indeed, anyone - or move very quick and replace him with Not Kamala Harris
You keep doing this. Nobody who's concern is "Biden is senile" is then going to decide to vote for Trump - who is senile and demented.
Everything you say about Biden *is also true* about Trump. You point to the huge problem with the dem candidate saying nothing about how the gop candidate has the same problem.
If you are a Trump supporter like luckyguy just say so. Stop dancing round your handbag.
Oh FFS. This piffling drivel is why I am close to quitting PB
In this fucking thread I say Trump is a "crazed weirdo", and I also say he is a "seriously poor candidate, with his own cognitive issues, and a ton of legal shit hanging around", I also say that GPT4 could be a better president than him, and much else. Look, it's there, right there, just below this
That's all in the last hour. If you can't be bothered to read threads then don't fucking comment on them
So, Biden is preferable to Trump, right?
I was about to give you a long thoughtful answer repeating my polar bear on the ice floe analogy but you know what, fuck it, why should I bother
PB you really have to up your game, this is desperate now
No, its a genuine question. However bad Biden is - and he is increasingly disastrous - if the choice is him or Trump what do you say?
The insanity of this is that in a few months we are likely to genuinely have Biden or Trump. Mad and Madder. What a choice! But in that very likely scenario, you have to back one of them. Right?
So which is it?
This is just garbage.
The current offer is to chose the lesser of two Evils.
What happens if you dont want to vote Evil in the first place ?
If you feel that strongly about it, you locate/join/create a Not Evil Party and support/campaign for/stand for that.
It probably won't work (Change UK, anyone?), and might lead to the Greater Evil winning by not uniting behind Lesser Evil.
But otherwise, choosing Lesser Evil is all we can do. It's what made 2019 so dismal for many.
Bottom line is that political parties don't owe the rest of us anything. Odd when you think about it. Mass democracy probably depends on them, but they exist at the whim of unrepresentative obsessives.
What if you dont feel strongly about it ? What if you think I'll sit it out until they come to their senses ?
I didnt vote in 2019 because the choice was shit. I probably wont this time either. \But at some point the worm will turn because in the UK what we have voted for since the mid 90s hasnt worked.
Not voting a) is expressing a preference; and b) disqualifies you from complaining about the resultant administration.
LOL
where did this law come from ? Voters are perfectly at liberty to complain about what they want. If you voted conservative in 2019 does that mean you cant complain that they are a mediocre administration ?
It's not a law it's a statement of the bleedin' obvious. It is infantile. Like those students who wear t-shirts saying: "don't vote it only encourages them".
No its not bleedin obvious, it simply means there isnt a party worth voting for and Im well within my rights to say what I would vote for. Who did you vote for in 2019 ? Boris ?
If @Alanbrooke doesn't vote it doesn't mean that politics ups and completely transforms to a structure that he likes. It means that the person who gets most votes wins and your vote was not part of that so you have had no input into the democratic process. Which means you have opted out and hence are disqualified from comment on the outcome.
You not voting is a tacit endorsement of the winner.
Since I live in one of the safest conservative seats in the country my vote is irrelevant on a pure de facto basis. As for disqualifiction what total garbage, the point of a democracy is voters can say what they want any time they want to.
I also note you still have avoided the who did you vote for in 2019 question.
Every vote is important. It is the foundation of our democracy. By opting out you opt out of any right to criticise or say anything about politics ever. I'm almost minded to exclude you from PB but you do post the occasional interesting thing.
Well youre just having an early morning troll now. Thats the problem with you Boris voters you just cant stick with anything for that long.
Personally, I think it's a bit of a Morton's Fork if there are two unpalatable choices.
- If you don't vote, you've passively acquiesced to whoever wins and refused any chance of stopping them - If you do vote, you've actively endorsed someone you dislike and disapprove of, and your vote is taken as a mandate for them.
The only solution would seem to be to change things to increase the width of options to hopefully give more chance of providing at least one that's not too unpleasant. That, though, is far easier said than done.
Everyone saying Biden is a safer bet than Trump because senility trumps (lol) insanity seems to have forgotten all the wars that have broken out in the last few years, versus general improvements to world stability that we saw under Trump.
Maybe the US can't take four more years of Trump (although I can't see what he'd try that he hasn't already), but I don't think the world can handle four more years of Biden.
I hope neither Ms. Cyclefree nor Mr. Royale have left permanently.
Has @Cyclefree left? I hope not,. As far as I can see her last comments to and from her were not particularly heated. Unless some comments have been deleted?
She appears to be a pretty busy person with a disturbing number of interests outside of PB.
She has changed her profile picture to "GONE" so I guess she’s probably left.
Seems obvious to me that he was pushed on stage last night with a glass of whisky in one hand and revolver in the other. His spokeslady seemed pretty defeated in the clip I saw of her.
If it’s going to be Kamala then logically she’ll take over soon, so she has the poll boost of incumbency and “can you imagine X as president”. If senior party figures concede she’d likely lose to trump, then it’s a West Wing style convention, with Biden holding on in office until next Jan.
I’d lean towards option a) being more likely, because the people making the decision are the same idiots that thought a puppet Biden regime was a good idea to begin with.
The problem the Democrats have is the power of the presidency rests in the hands of one man, and only he can make the decision to go. If he decides to stay, he stays, until his term ends or he is impeached and convicted. It is also much harder to get him to acknowledge this fact now that names are all on the ballots for the primaries: the time to announce he wasn’t standing would have been in mid 2023, not now.
The other thing about Biden is that many observers note his strong belief that only he can beat Trump. This seems to hold him in place, and it may be very hard to change his mind on it.
So yes there is a scenario where the men in grey suits step forward and tell him to go, but it’ll be a wrenching experience and not one I see him easily accepting.
A final thought, I agree that the best way to introduce Kamala would be to allow her to become President before the election rather than just as a candidate, but bear in mind that only one person has resigned the Presidency before, and it was a traumatic national experience. As a result, I expect that like British monarchs have an unease with the idea of abdication, there is a stigma connected to quitting the office mid-term.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
Local by election results from yesterday: Plaid Cymru gain in Criccieth, Conservative gain in Crewe Central, Lib Dem gain in East Hunsbury and Shelfleys (south Northampton).
OT. Yesterday I recommended the brilliant documentary '20 days in Mariupol' which I described as 'the likely Oscar winner but a difficult watch' ..........
Well the morning after I'd amend that to 'a documentary that you might want to think twice about watching'.
It's pretty unbearable in parts and certain scenes are difficult to get out of your head
What's it on.
If that's a joke it made me laugh! Otherwise Netflix
The problem the Democrats have is the power of the presidency rests in the hands of one man, and only he can make the decision to go.
The Veep and the Cabinet can 25th Amendment him out if they judge he is incapable of performing the duties of the office. Which doesn't look like a stretch on current evidence.
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
I think that is projection. There will be plenty of people willing to work with POTUS. Some good some not so good. He will have a team.
Kamala gets no love on here but if she passed the Ukraine Purity Test then the pb.com 6Music Centrist Dads would soon be on board.
She's just a standard American hegemonist and defender of Capital. She would provide a starker contrast with DJT through dint not being a gaga old white man enslaved by his own vanity, which both Biden and Trump are.
I'm a centrist dad and I endorse this message.
(But I don't listen to 6 music, so what do I know? Also I endorse any message on support of just about anyone who isn't Trump)
I am a centrist dad. My wife keeps changing the car radio to 6 Music when she is driving and I have to change it back to Magic. Does this make me a Magic Centrist Dad?
In a few years (decades?) you can be Magic Grandpa
Biden to make surprise address Joe Biden will deliver a speech at 7.45pm (12:45am GMT), the White House has announced, in a last-minute addition to his schedule for the day.
And it's a catastrophe. Biden shouting at reporters saying he's not senile.... then immediately confuses Mexico with Egypt
He's fucked. Biden is finished. That's it
The Dems have a stark choice, proceed with Biden and face a very probable defeat to Trump - or, indeed, anyone - or move very quick and replace him with Not Kamala Harris
You keep doing this. Nobody who's concern is "Biden is senile" is then going to decide to vote for Trump - who is senile and demented.
Everything you say about Biden *is also true* about Trump. You point to the huge problem with the dem candidate saying nothing about how the gop candidate has the same problem.
If you are a Trump supporter like luckyguy just say so. Stop dancing round your handbag.
Oh FFS. This piffling drivel is why I am close to quitting PB
In this fucking thread I say Trump is a "crazed weirdo", and I also say he is a "seriously poor candidate, with his own cognitive issues, and a ton of legal shit hanging around", I also say that GPT4 could be a better president than him, and much else. Look, it's there, right there, just below this
That's all in the last hour. If you can't be bothered to read threads then don't fucking comment on them
So, Biden is preferable to Trump, right?
I mean - not to defend Leon here - but I do think the DNC are throwing away this election. Trump is a seriously unpopular candidate mired in legal troubles and with his own mental and temperamental deficiencies to be president. The problem is that Biden's age, and the impact it has on his ability to be POTUS, is demonstrably an issue to American voters - Democratic or otherwise. Sure, Biden and the DNC didn't want to essentially announce Biden's lame duckhood right at the beginning of his presidency, and they wanted to avoid a messy primary battle which would create ideological splits in the party and could possibly see more progressive candidates win or be able to leverage for policy wins - but the alternative is Trump.
And we need to stop buying in to the argument that voters owe their politicians anything - politicians are their to convince voters to vote for them, and if they fail at that that's on them, not the electorate.
Again, as disquieting as it is, I agree with Leon. Biden is likely not going to beat Trump. The Democratic base are unhappy with him about Gaza, the youth vote that in part helped him overperform is leaving in droves, and he is even losing some of the typical Democratic base of African Americans. The main things going for him are independents really don't like Trump and older white people like Biden more than the average Dem. But I don't know if that's enough to win - although there has been some speculation that Biden may be able to lose the popular vote and still win with the EC given where his popularity has risen and fallen.
Either way - the DNC could do the right thing and take Biden's age off the board as an issue very easily. but they won't - because this is their modus operandi. They did it with Feinstein, they did it with Harry Reid (and, tbf the GOP seem to be doing it now with Mitch McConnell) - keep the old and infirm in their seats and let the staffers do all the hard work in an attempt to prevent ideological eruptions happening when the person inevitably has to be replaced. It isn't like Biden has a rabid base just for him, like Trump does. The DNC could replace him and most of the base would shrug and go "yeah, that makes sense" rather than scream "deep state trying to bring down the messiah".
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
The main problem is that the US Republicans have now become a party that is actively hostile towards Western security interests. They're as bad as the Tankies were.
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
I think that is projection. There will be plenty of people willing to work with POTUS. Some good some not so good. He will have a team.
The first 3 paragraphs are not a projection, they are his track record. And its abysmal.
Seems obvious to me that he was pushed on stage last night with a glass of whisky in one hand and revolver in the other. His spokeslady seemed pretty defeated in the clip I saw of her.
If it’s going to be Kamala then logically she’ll take over soon, so she has the poll boost of incumbency and “can you imagine X as president”. If senior party figures concede she’d likely lose to trump, then it’s a West Wing style convention, with Biden holding on in office until next Jan.
I’d lean towards option a) being more likely, because the people making the decision are the same idiots that thought a puppet Biden regime was a good idea to begin with.
The problem the Democrats have is the power of the presidency rests in the hands of one man, and only he can make the decision to go. If he decides to stay, he stays, until his term ends or he is impeached and convicted. It is also much harder to get him to acknowledge this fact now that names are all on the ballots for the primaries: the time to announce he wasn’t standing would have been in mid 2023, not now.
The other thing about Biden is that many observers note his strong belief that only he can beat Trump. This seems to hold him in place, and it may be very hard to change his mind on it.
So yes there is a scenario where the men in grey suits step forward and tell him to go, but it’ll be a wrenching experience and not one I see him easily accepting.
Biden is a party man. If the party came to him (and had Jill at their side) and said "Joe, you beat Trump, we needed you for that, time to walk off into the sunset" he'd... look around confused about what year it is for a bit, but he'd go. The thing is that instead the DNC are covering for him.
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
The main problem is that the US Republicans have now become a party that is actively hostile towards Western security interests. They're as bad as the Tankies were.
That's undoubtedly the main problem for us. We simply cannot rely on this man. The problems for the US itself are much, much broader.
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
I think that is projection. There will be plenty of people willing to work with POTUS. Some good some not so good. He will have a team.
The first 3 paragraphs are not a projection, they are his track record. And its abysmal.
Not the point. The point, for the umpteenth time this morning, is that one can either say vote for Biden because although he is gaga his team will be running the show; or one can say get rid of Biden because POTUS is very much a one-man show.
But the same applies to Trump. People are saying that you can vote for Biden knowing that his team will be running the show, while at the same time saying that voting for Trump would be voting for Trump and Trump alone.
I think I have made my point now so will allow PB to work it all out.
Everyone saying Biden is a safer bet than Trump because senility trumps (lol) insanity seems to have forgotten all the wars that have broken out in the last few years, versus general improvements to world stability that we saw under Trump.
Maybe the US can't take four more years of Trump (although I can't see what he'd try that he hasn't already), but I don't think the world can handle four more years of Biden.
This is simply hogwash. You don't think Trump emboldened Russia? Or that Trump inflamed tensions with Iran? And the Afghanistan withdrawal was Trump's plan, which Biden foolishly followed.
When he chose Harris as VP for right-on reasons I thought it was quite a hostage to fortune being a heartbeat away etc. Now, though it is hardly a prospect much to be desired, it seems a less dismal outcome than the geriatric option of whichever party.
Mr. Ghedebrav, sorry for the slow reply, was doing a spot of work. I'm homebrewing my own thing, though the setting's fairly straightforward, a mix of classic fantasy and Norse Scandinavia.
Edited extra bit: while my first campaign, I've watched a lot of lore videos and related stuff so luckily I had a running start which has made things a little easier than they might be.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
Trump is more of a malicious clown.
Of late Trump has - to my eyes - shown signs of senility. Really weird errors, not just his normal blustering gibberish - however they are less conspicuous, BECAUSE of that Trumpite gibberish, it gets lost in the mix
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced Biden must go and probably will go
Why? Because watching him is now so painful, seeing someone decline fast is a horrible spectacle, even in a close domestic setting. My mum has diagnosed dementia, it is not nice to see, to put it very very mildly
Who wants an extra load of that in their life, in the form of the US President, leader of the free world, mentally crumbling into nothing, over four agonising years, on TV, and everyone in his team pretending he is fine? No one. It is hideous. Not gonna happen
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
Thing is, the solution is clear. Not Harris, she's too unpopular. Not Obama (M), she's too sane to take it. Not Gavin Bloody Newsom.
Too much has been invested. Logos made. Step forward, Hunter Biden.
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
I think that is projection. There will be plenty of people willing to work with POTUS. Some good some not so good. He will have a team.
The first 3 paragraphs are not a projection, they are his track record. And its abysmal.
Not the point. The point, for the umpteenth time this morning, is that one can either say vote for Biden because although he is gaga his team will be running the show; or one can say get rid of Biden because POTUS is very much a one-man show.
But the same applies to Trump. People are saying that you can vote for Biden knowing that his team will be running the show, while at the same time saying that voting for Trump would be voting for Trump and Trump alone.
I think I have made my point now so will allow PB to work it all out.
The difference is that one (Biden) is willing to be guided by his team and one (Trump) is not. And we can see that clearly from their respective track records. Neither of these are anywhere near ideal but they are not the same.
Everyone saying Biden is a safer bet than Trump because senility trumps (lol) insanity seems to have forgotten all the wars that have broken out in the last few years, versus general improvements to world stability that we saw under Trump.
Maybe the US can't take four more years of Trump (although I can't see what he'd try that he hasn't already), but I don't think the world can handle four more years of Biden.
This is simply hogwash. You don't think Trump emboldened Russia? Or that Trump inflamed tensions with Iran? And the Afghanistan withdrawal was Trump's plan, which Biden foolishly followed.
No, I don't. Russia invaded Ukraine on Biden's watch, not Trump's. Trump bombed Russian interests in Syria after they started using chemical weapons - Obama threatened to do the same but then didn't follow through. And "inflaming tensions with Iran" is a nonsense - Iran is clearly spoiling for a fight, and Obama's policy of appeasement - reversed by Trump, then re-reversed by Biden - towards Iran is what's emboldened them.
Afghanistan is an irrelevancy in the broader geopolitical context since there's never been any evidence the Taliban care much about anything beyond their own borders. They have hopefully learned their lesson about sheltering and aiding people who do.
Biden to make surprise address Joe Biden will deliver a speech at 7.45pm (12:45am GMT), the White House has announced, in a last-minute addition to his schedule for the day.
And it's a catastrophe. Biden shouting at reporters saying he's not senile.... then immediately confuses Mexico with Egypt
He's fucked. Biden is finished. That's it
The Dems have a stark choice, proceed with Biden and face a very probable defeat to Trump - or, indeed, anyone - or move very quick and replace him with Not Kamala Harris
You keep doing this. Nobody who's concern is "Biden is senile" is then going to decide to vote for Trump - who is senile and demented.
Everything you say about Biden *is also true* about Trump. You point to the huge problem with the dem candidate saying nothing about how the gop candidate has the same problem.
If you are a Trump supporter like luckyguy just say so. Stop dancing round your handbag.
Oh FFS. This piffling drivel is why I am close to quitting PB
In this fucking thread I say Trump is a "crazed weirdo", and I also say he is a "seriously poor candidate, with his own cognitive issues, and a ton of legal shit hanging around", I also say that GPT4 could be a better president than him, and much else. Look, it's there, right there, just below this
That's all in the last hour. If you can't be bothered to read threads then don't fucking comment on them
So, Biden is preferable to Trump, right?
I mean - not to defend Leon here - but I do think the DNC are throwing away this election. Trump is a seriously unpopular candidate mired in legal troubles and with his own mental and temperamental deficiencies to be president. The problem is that Biden's age, and the impact it has on his ability to be POTUS, is demonstrably an issue to American voters - Democratic or otherwise. Sure, Biden and the DNC didn't want to essentially announce Biden's lame duckhood right at the beginning of his presidency, and they wanted to avoid a messy primary battle which would create ideological splits in the party and could possibly see more progressive candidates win or be able to leverage for policy wins - but the alternative is Trump.
And we need to stop buying in to the argument that voters owe their politicians anything - politicians are their to convince voters to vote for them, and if they fail at that that's on them, not the electorate.
Again, as disquieting as it is, I agree with Leon. Biden is likely not going to beat Trump. The Democratic base are unhappy with him about Gaza, the youth vote that in part helped him overperform is leaving in droves, and he is even losing some of the typical Democratic base of African Americans. The main things going for him are independents really don't like Trump and older white people like Biden more than the average Dem. But I don't know if that's enough to win - although there has been some speculation that Biden may be able to lose the popular vote and still win with the EC given where his popularity has risen and fallen.
Either way - the DNC could do the right thing and take Biden's age off the board as an issue very easily. but they won't - because this is their modus operandi. They did it with Feinstein, they did it with Harry Reid (and, tbf the GOP seem to be doing it now with Mitch McConnell) - keep the old and infirm in their seats and let the staffers do all the hard work in an attempt to prevent ideological eruptions happening when the person inevitably has to be replaced. It isn't like Biden has a rabid base just for him, like Trump does. The DNC could replace him and most of the base would shrug and go "yeah, that makes sense" rather than scream "deep state trying to bring down the messiah".
By what mechanism?
Harris - straightforward, but all evidence says she is more likely to lose than Biden, so why? Obama - could be negotiated if Harris and Biden both are willing to step aside, and they can convince someone who is adamant she doesn't want it. She would win the election too, but she won't stand.
Anyone else - too late for primary season so some kind of mass bunfight exposing deep divisions within the party, pulling it further away from the centre and no guarantee of finding a candidate more electable than Biden.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
I agree with you Nigel, and I'm only in my fifties.....
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
The tragedy (comedy?) of the DNC is that they don't have anyone else lined up. Harris is veep but that was the consolation prize to bury her in. Buttigeig is too crap and too gay/woke. The others are too who?
So they need left field. Tom Hanks. Boris Johnson. The Olsen Twins. Michelle 'No, I'm Not Running As A Proxy For My Husband' Obama. Someone who can come in, have a smile and a knowing look in the eye, and call out Trumpism for what it is.
Last time out the left field candidate turned out to be the 167 year old former veep. But he can't pull the same trick this time. Trump has also gone doolally, but when you lead a neo-fascist movement that isn't seen as a vote loser.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
"My heart sank as he floundered his way through his responses, fumbling with his notes, uncharacteristically lost for words. He looked tired and bewildered,"
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
When he chose Harris as VP for right-on reasons I thought it was quite a hostage to fortune being a heartbeat away etc. Now, though it is hardly a prospect much to be desired, it seems a less dismal outcome than the geriatric option of whichever party.
She may do OK. She’s not been used very well as VP. There is a talented politician in there somewhere, she was considered by many to be impressive as a Senator.
She has gone backwards presentationally as VP though which is really weird.
There are parallels between her and H Clinton. I could imagine her enthusing the same type of voters as she did, yet really put off others.
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
I think that is projection. There will be plenty of people willing to work with POTUS. Some good some not so good. He will have a team.
The first 3 paragraphs are not a projection, they are his track record. And its abysmal.
Not the point. The point, for the umpteenth time this morning, is that one can either say vote for Biden because although he is gaga his team will be running the show; or one can say get rid of Biden because POTUS is very much a one-man show.
But the same applies to Trump. People are saying that you can vote for Biden knowing that his team will be running the show, while at the same time saying that voting for Trump would be voting for Trump and Trump alone.
I think I have made my point now so will allow PB to work it all out.
The difference is that one (Biden) is willing to be guided by his team and one (Trump) is not. And we can see that clearly from their respective track records. Neither of these are anywhere near ideal but they are not the same.
Relatedly if Biden did appear to be unable to do his job then his cabinet wouldn't hesitate to take him behind the barn and deliver a swift blow with the 25th Amendment, whereas Trump will pick a bunch of toadies who will defend anything he does, no matter how deranged.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
Thing is, the solution is clear. Not Harris, she's too unpopular. Not Obama (M), she's too sane to take it. Not Gavin Bloody Newsom.
Too much has been invested. Logos made. Step forward, Hunter Biden.
How about Ivanka Trump? 1. she is seriously hot 2. she is a smart scheming broad who could do something like that, turning on her own father, 3. it would be the best plot twist in revent American history
Biden to make surprise address Joe Biden will deliver a speech at 7.45pm (12:45am GMT), the White House has announced, in a last-minute addition to his schedule for the day.
And it's a catastrophe. Biden shouting at reporters saying he's not senile.... then immediately confuses Mexico with Egypt
He's fucked. Biden is finished. That's it
The Dems have a stark choice, proceed with Biden and face a very probable defeat to Trump - or, indeed, anyone - or move very quick and replace him with Not Kamala Harris
You keep doing this. Nobody who's concern is "Biden is senile" is then going to decide to vote for Trump - who is senile and demented.
Everything you say about Biden *is also true* about Trump. You point to the huge problem with the dem candidate saying nothing about how the gop candidate has the same problem.
If you are a Trump supporter like luckyguy just say so. Stop dancing round your handbag.
Oh FFS. This piffling drivel is why I am close to quitting PB
In this fucking thread I say Trump is a "crazed weirdo", and I also say he is a "seriously poor candidate, with his own cognitive issues, and a ton of legal shit hanging around", I also say that GPT4 could be a better president than him, and much else. Look, it's there, right there, just below this
That's all in the last hour. If you can't be bothered to read threads then don't fucking comment on them
So, Biden is preferable to Trump, right?
I mean - not to defend Leon here - but I do think the DNC are throwing away this election. Trump is a seriously unpopular candidate mired in legal troubles and with his own mental and temperamental deficiencies to be president. The problem is that Biden's age, and the impact it has on his ability to be POTUS, is demonstrably an issue to American voters - Democratic or otherwise. Sure, Biden and the DNC didn't want to essentially announce Biden's lame duckhood right at the beginning of his presidency, and they wanted to avoid a messy primary battle which would create ideological splits in the party and could possibly see more progressive candidates win or be able to leverage for policy wins - but the alternative is Trump.
And we need to stop buying in to the argument that voters owe their politicians anything - politicians are their to convince voters to vote for them, and if they fail at that that's on them, not the electorate.
Again, as disquieting as it is, I agree with Leon. Biden is likely not going to beat Trump. The Democratic base are unhappy with him about Gaza, the youth vote that in part helped him overperform is leaving in droves, and he is even losing some of the typical Democratic base of African Americans. The main things going for him are independents really don't like Trump and older white people like Biden more than the average Dem. But I don't know if that's enough to win - although there has been some speculation that Biden may be able to lose the popular vote and still win with the EC given where his popularity has risen and fallen.
Either way - the DNC could do the right thing and take Biden's age off the board as an issue very easily. but they won't - because this is their modus operandi. They did it with Feinstein, they did it with Harry Reid (and, tbf the GOP seem to be doing it now with Mitch McConnell) - keep the old and infirm in their seats and let the staffers do all the hard work in an attempt to prevent ideological eruptions happening when the person inevitably has to be replaced. It isn't like Biden has a rabid base just for him, like Trump does. The DNC could replace him and most of the base would shrug and go "yeah, that makes sense" rather than scream "deep state trying to bring down the messiah".
By what mechanism?
Harris - straightforward, but all evidence says she is more likely to lose than Biden, so why? Obama - could be negotiated if Harris and Biden both are willing to step aside, and they can convince someone who is adamant she doesn't want it. She would win the election too, but she won't stand.
Anyone else - too late for primary season so some kind of mass bunfight exposing deep divisions within the party, pulling it further away from the centre and no guarantee of finding a candidate more electable than Biden.
It is far from easy.
While given Biden is the only Democrat who has proved he can beat Trump in the Electoral College and still leads Trump in some polls, why take the risk? https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3889
Biden to make surprise address Joe Biden will deliver a speech at 7.45pm (12:45am GMT), the White House has announced, in a last-minute addition to his schedule for the day.
And it's a catastrophe. Biden shouting at reporters saying he's not senile.... then immediately confuses Mexico with Egypt
He's fucked. Biden is finished. That's it
The Dems have a stark choice, proceed with Biden and face a very probable defeat to Trump - or, indeed, anyone - or move very quick and replace him with Not Kamala Harris
You keep doing this. Nobody who's concern is "Biden is senile" is then going to decide to vote for Trump - who is senile and demented.
Everything you say about Biden *is also true* about Trump. You point to the huge problem with the dem candidate saying nothing about how the gop candidate has the same problem.
If you are a Trump supporter like luckyguy just say so. Stop dancing round your handbag.
Oh FFS. This piffling drivel is why I am close to quitting PB
In this fucking thread I say Trump is a "crazed weirdo", and I also say he is a "seriously poor candidate, with his own cognitive issues, and a ton of legal shit hanging around", I also say that GPT4 could be a better president than him, and much else. Look, it's there, right there, just below this
That's all in the last hour. If you can't be bothered to read threads then don't fucking comment on them
Post Brexit and Covid I would observe that the comments website are characterised by what I would describe as a 'woke consensus', ie agreement with prevailing cultural trends. The main differences seem to be on economics, or just hair splitting over things like the electric cars, the value of ofsted, planning reform, etc. Someone needs to provide the antithesis to the 'woke consensus' - be this on Trump, Ukraine, net zero, immigration, trans issues, etc. Unlike in past years (the fierce brexit wars, etc), there is an an increasing sense of sleepy agreement on issues. This sleepy agreement is reinforced by debating techniques of the 'woke left' that are well documented, creating broad and expansive definitions of concepts like 'racism' to try and shut out debate and challenge.
Not sure. On Trump, the consensus is among those who argue from constitutional positions; on the whole in rational respects Trump is indefensible; lots of people try to comprehend why irrationality has broken out, but Trump supporters are very unkeen to take on rational clothing in debate.
On Ukraine views will differ about prospects and outcomes, but it is not easy to defend the invasion of a sovereign state.
On net zero, many commentators are aware that the science is uncertain and that if it is correct we are stuffed, come what may. But it may all be wrong.
There is no consensus whatever on migration, views varying from Zero to Freedom of movement.
On trans, I am too old to remember what this is about, but it is something to do with norms and exceptions and language. The debate rages SFAICS, and JK Rowling is something to do with it, as is Cyclefree.
All non woke positions that are arguable (and some that are not) are regularly aired in the Speccie, DTel, Mail, GB News, LBC, and here.
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
The main problem is that the US Republicans have now become a party that is actively hostile towards Western security interests. They're as bad as the Tankies were.
Not all, Haley is arguably more pro Zelensky and pro Israel than Biden. However at the moment she and her wing only represent about a quarter to a third of GOP voters
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
"My heart sank as he floundered his way through his responses, fumbling with his notes, uncharacteristically lost for words. He looked tired and bewildered,"
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
A fair point. However I do not ever recall Reagan making as many appalling gaffes or doing weird frozen demented things as Biden does
Also, the world is a crueller place, and politicians must stand in the harsh light of 24/7 social media, where the tiniest error goes viral
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
I've always struggled with names, but not as bad as a manager I had, who found it hard to remember anyone's name. Even his wife's, he used to joke. When we had a telelconference he would ask everyone to introduce themselves, and write the names down on a piece of paper. But he was an excellent manager, despite that.
About nine years ago I get meningitis, which totally mucked up my memory, and particularly my short-term memory. The worst effects lasted about nine months (standing at the burglar alarm crying because I couldn't remember a code I'd entered hundreds of times before, making Mrs J a cup of tea, taking it to her study, then going downstairs and making another cup). It's got better, but I've no idea if it's back to where it was.
And I think that's an issue with gradual decline: what's the baseline? How do you metricise memory? There must be ways that will allow you to monitor gradual decline.
Wow, that’s horrible to read. So sad for the guy, but he really can’t carry on. Time for the cabinet to call the 25th amendment on him, and then work out how to deal with the Kamala problem?
Post #54223 predicting the political death of Joe Biden.
I'd expected this forum to be full of betting posts given Biden is still heavily odds on to be the Democratic candidate. I've done some, but in truth amazed he has not completely collapsed.
Post #54224
Unless he actually dies he's going nowhere.
That's possibly true.
He's run a pretty successful administration despite one of the least cooperative Congresses in history. And there's no obvious way of replacing him.
On the other hand, Robert Hur has successfully Comey-ed him. With (as with Hillary Clinton) the enthusiastic co-operation of the "liberal media".
It's not easy to predict how this plays out.
There is a relatively easy way of replacing him with Harris, but that is likely worse electorally.
If Harris was Democrat candidate Trump would probably win the biggest GOP landslide since 1988.
Newsom might win the popular vote but would be no more popular in the rustbelt than Hillary was
Wow, that’s horrible to read. So sad for the guy, but he really can’t carry on. Time for the cabinet to call the 25th amendment on him, and then work out how to deal with the Kamala problem?
Post #54223 predicting the political death of Joe Biden.
I'd expected this forum to be full of betting posts given Biden is still heavily odds on to be the Democratic candidate. I've done some, but in truth amazed he has not completely collapsed.
Post #54224
Unless he actually dies he's going nowhere.
That's possibly true.
He's run a pretty successful administration despite one of the least cooperative Congresses in history. And there's no obvious way of replacing him.
On the other hand, Robert Hur has successfully Comey-ed him. With (as with Hillary Clinton) the enthusiastic co-operation of the "liberal media".
It's not easy to predict how this plays out.
There is a relatively easy way of replacing him with Harris, but that is likely worse electorally.
If Harris was Democrat candidate Trump would probably win the biggest GOP landslide since 1988
Whatever else Biden is, he's an experienced politician, and I'm sure her utter charmlessness and uselessness is the reason (apart from the token thing) why he chose her in the first place.
Wow, that’s horrible to read. So sad for the guy, but he really can’t carry on. Time for the cabinet to call the 25th amendment on him, and then work out how to deal with the Kamala problem?
Post #54223 predicting the political death of Joe Biden.
I'd expected this forum to be full of betting posts given Biden is still heavily odds on to be the Democratic candidate. I've done some, but in truth amazed he has not completely collapsed.
Post #54224
Unless he actually dies he's going nowhere.
That's possibly true.
He's run a pretty successful administration despite one of the least cooperative Congresses in history. And there's no obvious way of replacing him.
On the other hand, Robert Hur has successfully Comey-ed him. With (as with Hillary Clinton) the enthusiastic co-operation of the "liberal media".
It's not easy to predict how this plays out.
There is a relatively easy way of replacing him with Harris, but that is likely worse electorally.
If Harris was Democrat candidate Trump would probably win the biggest GOP landslide since 1988.
Newsom might win the popular vote but would be no more popular in the rustbelt than Hillary was
Would that also be the first Republican landslide since 1988......I concur by the way.
Wow, that’s horrible to read. So sad for the guy, but he really can’t carry on. Time for the cabinet to call the 25th amendment on him, and then work out how to deal with the Kamala problem?
Post #54223 predicting the political death of Joe Biden.
I'd expected this forum to be full of betting posts given Biden is still heavily odds on to be the Democratic candidate. I've done some, but in truth amazed he has not completely collapsed.
Post #54224
Unless he actually dies he's going nowhere.
That's possibly true.
He's run a pretty successful administration despite one of the least cooperative Congresses in history. And there's no obvious way of replacing him.
On the other hand, Robert Hur has successfully Comey-ed him. With (as with Hillary Clinton) the enthusiastic co-operation of the "liberal media".
It's not easy to predict how this plays out.
There is a relatively easy way of replacing him with Harris, but that is likely worse electorally.
If Harris was Democrat candidate Trump would probably win the biggest GOP landslide since 1988.
Newsom might win the popular vote but would be no more popular in the rustbelt than Hillary was
That is true - and probably part of why people don't want Biden to not run. But that has just left Newsom running this weird shadow campaign meaning that if something were to happen... he's there. It would have been better for Joe to stand aside and let a real primary happen - at least Kamala would have been tested out properly. If she didn't win again, she'd still be VP.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Biden was 81 last November. I'm 81 this April and I too have difficulty in remembering names and words so I sympathise. I've started keeping a journal to remember what I did last week and slow down time.
However I'm fully capable of making decisions, persuading people, leading a team of political activists and a local charity.
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
The main problem is that the US Republicans have now become a party that is actively hostile towards Western security interests. They're as bad as the Tankies were.
Not all, Haley is arguably more pro Zelensky and pro Israel than Biden. However at the moment she and her wing only represent about a quarter to a third of GOP voters
They should have got Trump banned in his 2021 impeachment. That was possibly the only time they could have stopped him. They were close to getting there for about a week and then nearly all got frit.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
"My heart sank as he floundered his way through his responses, fumbling with his notes, uncharacteristically lost for words. He looked tired and bewildered,"
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
A fair point. However I do not ever recall Reagan making as many appalling gaffes or doing weird frozen demented things as Biden does
Also, the world is a crueller place, and politicians must stand in the harsh light of 24/7 social media, where the tiniest error goes viral
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
"My heart sank as he floundered his way through his responses, fumbling with his notes, uncharacteristically lost for words. He looked tired and bewildered,"
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
I mean the world didn't implode, but Reagan was an awful president ideologically anyway. It wasn't like presenile Reagan was really calling the shots - he was the face of movement conservatism and a good actor who could deliver his lines. Biden can't even do that.
Mr Hur's report says that it would be difficult to convict Mr Biden of improper handling because "at trial, Mr Biden would likely present himself to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory".
That really holes Biden below the waterline in terms of re-election.
It is a very polite way of calling him too senile to face trial.
Well, it would. If his opponent wasn't Trump. Who is manifestly far more senile.
Again, if the Republicans wanted to win they'd select Haley. But they're so far gone they won't even vote for her when the orangutan isn't on the ballot.
This is objectively wrong. Trump is not manifestly far more senile and he is ahead in the polls against Biden.
Confusing Haley and Pelosi? Constantly confusing Biden and Obama!
I don't think that misspeaking about contemporary political opponents is quite in the same category as having conversations with ghosts, but even if you disagree, you can't really argue that Trump is "far more" senile.
I think misspeaking, getting someone’s name wrong once, is less significant than a lengthy rant based on your confusion. I also think Macron/Mitterrand, two people in the same role with names beginning with ‘M’, is a smaller mistake than confusing Pelosi and Haley, who are in opposing parties and different roles. I think not knowing who you are running against (Biden/Obama) is massively more significant.
Trump is a shell of what he was. What he was was odious, but Trump now is a pale facade around this hollow myth his devotees have constructed.
Perhaps you haven't seen the news, but on a separate night, Biden described meeting Helmut Kohl at an event in 2021.
Trump mistook a photo of Jean Carroll for his second wife.
He thought he saw an Elephant, That practised on a fife: He looked again, and found it was A letter from his wife. 'At length I realise,' he said, The bitterness of Life!'
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Biden was 81 last November. I'm 81 this April and I too have difficulty in remembering names and words so I sympathise. I've started keeping a journal to remember what I did last week and slow down time.
However I'm fully capable of making decisions, persuading people, leading a team of political activists and a local charity.
Now what was the point I was trying to make?
My nan is 84, again starting to rolodex through grandkids names before getting the right one, etc.
But she doesn't have the weight of the world on her shoulders. 10 years ago she would cook for the family (her kids, grandkids and sister plus partners, so anywhere between a dozen and 15 of us) every week, no problem. Now she finds the idea horrific - the anxiety, the fatigue, just the idea of that many people in the house, etc. And that is nowhere near the kind of pressure the POTUS is under!
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
"My heart sank as he floundered his way through his responses, fumbling with his notes, uncharacteristically lost for words. He looked tired and bewildered,"
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
A fair point. However I do not ever recall Reagan making as many appalling gaffes or doing weird frozen demented things as Biden does
Also, the world is a crueller place, and politicians must stand in the harsh light of 24/7 social media, where the tiniest error goes viral
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
Trump is more of a malicious clown.
Of late Trump has - to my eyes - shown signs of senility. Really weird errors, not just his normal blustering gibberish - however they are less conspicuous, BECAUSE of that Trumpite gibberish, it gets lost in the mix
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced Biden must go and probably will go
Why? Because watching him is now so painful, seeing someone decline fast is a horrible spectacle, even in a close domestic setting. My mum has diagnosed dementia, it is not nice to see, to put it very very mildly
Who wants an extra load of that in their life, in the form of the US President, leader of the free world, mentally crumbling into nothing, over four agonising years, on TV, and everyone in his team pretending he is fine? No one. It is hideous. Not gonna happen
He has to go
Exactly. With all the challenges from the likes of Putin we need a president on top form. And Trump doesnt really fit the bill either.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
"My heart sank as he floundered his way through his responses, fumbling with his notes, uncharacteristically lost for words. He looked tired and bewildered,"
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
I mean the world didn't implode, but Reagan was an awful president ideologically anyway. It wasn't like presenile Reagan was really calling the shots - he was the face of movement conservatism and a good actor who could deliver his lines. Biden can't even do that.
What percentage of US presidents fall into your awful ideologically category? Guessing closer to 100% than even 70%?
He is not my cup of tea either, but his ideology isn't particularly relevant to Biden comparisons. The ability of the institution of the Presidency to survive an old candidate with significant memory problems is however proven.
The ability of the the Presidency to survive a wannabee dictator was tested to its limits last time and will fail if Trump is elected this time.
Biden to make surprise address Joe Biden will deliver a speech at 7.45pm (12:45am GMT), the White House has announced, in a last-minute addition to his schedule for the day.
And it's a catastrophe. Biden shouting at reporters saying he's not senile.... then immediately confuses Mexico with Egypt
He's fucked. Biden is finished. That's it
The Dems have a stark choice, proceed with Biden and face a very probable defeat to Trump - or, indeed, anyone - or move very quick and replace him with Not Kamala Harris
You keep doing this. Nobody who's concern is "Biden is senile" is then going to decide to vote for Trump - who is senile and demented.
Everything you say about Biden *is also true* about Trump. You point to the huge problem with the dem candidate saying nothing about how the gop candidate has the same problem.
If you are a Trump supporter like luckyguy just say so. Stop dancing round your handbag.
Oh FFS. This piffling drivel is why I am close to quitting PB
In this fucking thread I say Trump is a "crazed weirdo", and I also say he is a "seriously poor candidate, with his own cognitive issues, and a ton of legal shit hanging around", I also say that GPT4 could be a better president than him, and much else. Look, it's there, right there, just below this
That's all in the last hour. If you can't be bothered to read threads then don't fucking comment on them
So, Biden is preferable to Trump, right?
I mean - not to defend Leon here - but I do think the DNC are throwing away this election. Trump is a seriously unpopular candidate mired in legal troubles and with his own mental and temperamental deficiencies to be president. The problem is that Biden's age, and the impact it has on his ability to be POTUS, is demonstrably an issue to American voters - Democratic or otherwise. Sure, Biden and the DNC didn't want to essentially announce Biden's lame duckhood right at the beginning of his presidency, and they wanted to avoid a messy primary battle which would create ideological splits in the party and could possibly see more progressive candidates win or be able to leverage for policy wins - but the alternative is Trump.
And we need to stop buying in to the argument that voters owe their politicians anything - politicians are their to convince voters to vote for them, and if they fail at that that's on them, not the electorate.
Again, as disquieting as it is, I agree with Leon. Biden is likely not going to beat Trump. The Democratic base are unhappy with him about Gaza, the youth vote that in part helped him overperform is leaving in droves, and he is even losing some of the typical Democratic base of African Americans. The main things going for him are independents really don't like Trump and older white people like Biden more than the average Dem. But I don't know if that's enough to win - although there has been some speculation that Biden may be able to lose the popular vote and still win with the EC given where his popularity has risen and fallen.
Either way - the DNC could do the right thing and take Biden's age off the board as an issue very easily. but they won't - because this is their modus operandi. They did it with Feinstein, they did it with Harry Reid (and, tbf the GOP seem to be doing it now with Mitch McConnell) - keep the old and infirm in their seats and let the staffers do all the hard work in an attempt to prevent ideological eruptions happening when the person inevitably has to be replaced. It isn't like Biden has a rabid base just for him, like Trump does. The DNC could replace him and most of the base would shrug and go "yeah, that makes sense" rather than scream "deep state trying to bring down the messiah".
By what mechanism?
Harris - straightforward, but all evidence says she is more likely to lose than Biden, so why? Obama - could be negotiated if Harris and Biden both are willing to step aside, and they can convince someone who is adamant she doesn't want it. She would win the election too, but she won't stand.
Anyone else - too late for primary season so some kind of mass bunfight exposing deep divisions within the party, pulling it further away from the centre and no guarantee of finding a candidate more electable than Biden.
It is far from easy.
They should have allowed a real primary to happen - this isn't a new issue, it's just that more and more evidence is coming out to bolster it as an issue; Biden's age has basically been one of the biggest drains on his support after the midterms.
I think the mechanism will have to be a really chaotic convention. Jill wheels Joe out onto a stage, says "look, he can't do this, I'm sorry" and then the DNC descends into utter madness as many of the candidates in waiting start trying to schmooze a load of delegates who suddenly can vote for whoever they want.
The other option would be to remove Harris as VP for the GE. You're right that Harris is also unpopular - so if you've got a POTUS that looks like he could fall down dead at any moment you need a VP that people trust. Swap her out for someone better liked, and people may hold their nose and go "well, at least if Biden does go over the edge, the next person in line is someone who can do the job".
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
Thing is, the solution is clear. Not Harris, she's too unpopular. Not Obama (M), she's too sane to take it. Not Gavin Bloody Newsom.
Too much has been invested. Logos made. Step forward, Hunter Biden.
How about Ivanka Trump? 1. she is seriously hot 2. she is a smart scheming broad who could do something like that, turning on her own father, 3. it would be the best plot twist in revent American history
Ivanka Trump is "smart" yet Kamala Harris is "dumb as all fuck" eh? The crazy crazy world of MAGA.
The problem the Democrats have is the power of the presidency rests in the hands of one man, and only he can make the decision to go.
The Veep and the Cabinet can 25th Amendment him out if they judge he is incapable of performing the duties of the office. Which doesn't look like a stretch on current evidence.
But they have no incentive to do that, because it would torpedo his / Harris' reelection chances. So partisanship is stopping them doing their constitutional duty.
When he chose Harris as VP for right-on reasons I thought it was quite a hostage to fortune being a heartbeat away etc. Now, though it is hardly a prospect much to be desired, it seems a less dismal outcome than the geriatric option of whichever party.
She may do OK. She’s not been used very well as VP. There is a talented politician in there somewhere, she was considered by many to be impressive as a Senator.
She has gone backwards presentationally as VP though which is really weird.
There are parallels between her and H Clinton. I could imagine her enthusing the same type of voters as she did, yet really put off others.
Harris has had to spend a lot of her time in the Senate, in case her casting vote was needed, instead of doing the usual VP glad-handing stuff.
Biden to make surprise address Joe Biden will deliver a speech at 7.45pm (12:45am GMT), the White House has announced, in a last-minute addition to his schedule for the day.
And it's a catastrophe. Biden shouting at reporters saying he's not senile.... then immediately confuses Mexico with Egypt
He's fucked. Biden is finished. That's it
The Dems have a stark choice, proceed with Biden and face a very probable defeat to Trump - or, indeed, anyone - or move very quick and replace him with Not Kamala Harris
You keep doing this. Nobody who's concern is "Biden is senile" is then going to decide to vote for Trump - who is senile and demented.
Everything you say about Biden *is also true* about Trump. You point to the huge problem with the dem candidate saying nothing about how the gop candidate has the same problem.
If you are a Trump supporter like luckyguy just say so. Stop dancing round your handbag.
Oh FFS. This piffling drivel is why I am close to quitting PB
In this fucking thread I say Trump is a "crazed weirdo", and I also say he is a "seriously poor candidate, with his own cognitive issues, and a ton of legal shit hanging around", I also say that GPT4 could be a better president than him, and much else. Look, it's there, right there, just below this
That's all in the last hour. If you can't be bothered to read threads then don't fucking comment on them
So, Biden is preferable to Trump, right?
I mean - not to defend Leon here - but I do think the DNC are throwing away this election. Trump is a seriously unpopular candidate mired in legal troubles and with his own mental and temperamental deficiencies to be president. The problem is that Biden's age, and the impact it has on his ability to be POTUS, is demonstrably an issue to American voters - Democratic or otherwise. Sure, Biden and the DNC didn't want to essentially announce Biden's lame duckhood right at the beginning of his presidency, and they wanted to avoid a messy primary battle which would create ideological splits in the party and could possibly see more progressive candidates win or be able to leverage for policy wins - but the alternative is Trump.
And we need to stop buying in to the argument that voters owe their politicians anything - politicians are their to convince voters to vote for them, and if they fail at that that's on them, not the electorate.
Again, as disquieting as it is, I agree with Leon. Biden is likely not going to beat Trump. The Democratic base are unhappy with him about Gaza, the youth vote that in part helped him overperform is leaving in droves, and he is even losing some of the typical Democratic base of African Americans. The main things going for him are independents really don't like Trump and older white people like Biden more than the average Dem. But I don't know if that's enough to win - although there has been some speculation that Biden may be able to lose the popular vote and still win with the EC given where his popularity has risen and fallen.
Either way - the DNC could do the right thing and take Biden's age off the board as an issue very easily. but they won't - because this is their modus operandi. They did it with Feinstein, they did it with Harry Reid (and, tbf the GOP seem to be doing it now with Mitch McConnell) - keep the old and infirm in their seats and let the staffers do all the hard work in an attempt to prevent ideological eruptions happening when the person inevitably has to be replaced. It isn't like Biden has a rabid base just for him, like Trump does. The DNC could replace him and most of the base would shrug and go "yeah, that makes sense" rather than scream "deep state trying to bring down the messiah".
By what mechanism?
Harris - straightforward, but all evidence says she is more likely to lose than Biden, so why? Obama - could be negotiated if Harris and Biden both are willing to step aside, and they can convince someone who is adamant she doesn't want it. She would win the election too, but she won't stand.
Anyone else - too late for primary season so some kind of mass bunfight exposing deep divisions within the party, pulling it further away from the centre and no guarantee of finding a candidate more electable than Biden.
It is far from easy.
They should have allowed a real primary to happen - this isn't a new issue, it's just that more and more evidence is coming out to bolster it as an issue; Biden's age has basically been one of the biggest drains on his support after the midterms.
I think the mechanism will have to be a really chaotic convention. Jill wheels Joe out onto a stage, says "look, he can't do this, I'm sorry" and then the DNC descends into utter madness as many of the candidates in waiting start trying to schmooze a load of delegates who suddenly can vote for whoever they want.
The other option would be to remove Harris as VP for the GE. You're right that Harris is also unpopular - so if you've got a POTUS that looks like he could fall down dead at any moment you need a VP that people trust. Swap her out for someone better liked, and people may hold their nose and go "well, at least if Biden does go over the edge, the next person in line is someone who can do the job".
A convention bunfight and/or openly ditching a black female VP are pretty much guaranteed ways to lose the election.
Wow, that’s horrible to read. So sad for the guy, but he really can’t carry on. Time for the cabinet to call the 25th amendment on him, and then work out how to deal with the Kamala problem?
Post #54223 predicting the political death of Joe Biden.
I'd expected this forum to be full of betting posts given Biden is still heavily odds on to be the Democratic candidate. I've done some, but in truth amazed he has not completely collapsed.
Post #54224
Unless he actually dies he's going nowhere.
That's possibly true.
He's run a pretty successful administration despite one of the least cooperative Congresses in history. And there's no obvious way of replacing him.
On the other hand, Robert Hur has successfully Comey-ed him. With (as with Hillary Clinton) the enthusiastic co-operation of the "liberal media".
It's not easy to predict how this plays out.
There is a relatively easy way of replacing him with Harris, but that is likely worse electorally.
If Harris was Democrat candidate Trump would probably win the biggest GOP landslide since 1988
Whatever else Biden is, he's an experienced politician, and I'm sure her utter charmlessness and uselessness is the reason (apart from the token thing) why he chose her in the first place.
Any more stuff you don't have a clue about that you're sure of?
Biden to make surprise address Joe Biden will deliver a speech at 7.45pm (12:45am GMT), the White House has announced, in a last-minute addition to his schedule for the day.
And it's a catastrophe. Biden shouting at reporters saying he's not senile.... then immediately confuses Mexico with Egypt
He's fucked. Biden is finished. That's it
The Dems have a stark choice, proceed with Biden and face a very probable defeat to Trump - or, indeed, anyone - or move very quick and replace him with Not Kamala Harris
You keep doing this. Nobody who's concern is "Biden is senile" is then going to decide to vote for Trump - who is senile and demented.
Everything you say about Biden *is also true* about Trump. You point to the huge problem with the dem candidate saying nothing about how the gop candidate has the same problem.
If you are a Trump supporter like luckyguy just say so. Stop dancing round your handbag.
Oh FFS. This piffling drivel is why I am close to quitting PB
In this fucking thread I say Trump is a "crazed weirdo", and I also say he is a "seriously poor candidate, with his own cognitive issues, and a ton of legal shit hanging around", I also say that GPT4 could be a better president than him, and much else. Look, it's there, right there, just below this
That's all in the last hour. If you can't be bothered to read threads then don't fucking comment on them
So, Biden is preferable to Trump, right?
I mean - not to defend Leon here - but I do think the DNC are throwing away this election. Trump is a seriously unpopular candidate mired in legal troubles and with his own mental and temperamental deficiencies to be president. The problem is that Biden's age, and the impact it has on his ability to be POTUS, is demonstrably an issue to American voters - Democratic or otherwise. Sure, Biden and the DNC didn't want to essentially announce Biden's lame duckhood right at the beginning of his presidency, and they wanted to avoid a messy primary battle which would create ideological splits in the party and could possibly see more progressive candidates win or be able to leverage for policy wins - but the alternative is Trump.
And we need to stop buying in to the argument that voters owe their politicians anything - politicians are their to convince voters to vote for them, and if they fail at that that's on them, not the electorate.
Again, as disquieting as it is, I agree with Leon. Biden is likely not going to beat Trump. The Democratic base are unhappy with him about Gaza, the youth vote that in part helped him overperform is leaving in droves, and he is even losing some of the typical Democratic base of African Americans. The main things going for him are independents really don't like Trump and older white people like Biden more than the average Dem. But I don't know if that's enough to win - although there has been some speculation that Biden may be able to lose the popular vote and still win with the EC given where his popularity has risen and fallen.
Either way - the DNC could do the right thing and take Biden's age off the board as an issue very easily. but they won't - because this is their modus operandi. They did it with Feinstein, they did it with Harry Reid (and, tbf the GOP seem to be doing it now with Mitch McConnell) - keep the old and infirm in their seats and let the staffers do all the hard work in an attempt to prevent ideological eruptions happening when the person inevitably has to be replaced. It isn't like Biden has a rabid base just for him, like Trump does. The DNC could replace him and most of the base would shrug and go "yeah, that makes sense" rather than scream "deep state trying to bring down the messiah".
By what mechanism?
Harris - straightforward, but all evidence says she is more likely to lose than Biden, so why? Obama - could be negotiated if Harris and Biden both are willing to step aside, and they can convince someone who is adamant she doesn't want it. She would win the election too, but she won't stand.
Anyone else - too late for primary season so some kind of mass bunfight exposing deep divisions within the party, pulling it further away from the centre and no guarantee of finding a candidate more electable than Biden.
It is far from easy.
They should have allowed a real primary to happen - this isn't a new issue, it's just that more and more evidence is coming out to bolster it as an issue; Biden's age has basically been one of the biggest drains on his support after the midterms.
I think the mechanism will have to be a really chaotic convention. Jill wheels Joe out onto a stage, says "look, he can't do this, I'm sorry" and then the DNC descends into utter madness as many of the candidates in waiting start trying to schmooze a load of delegates who suddenly can vote for whoever they want.
The other option would be to remove Harris as VP for the GE. You're right that Harris is also unpopular - so if you've got a POTUS that looks like he could fall down dead at any moment you need a VP that people trust. Swap her out for someone better liked, and people may hold their nose and go "well, at least if Biden does go over the edge, the next person in line is someone who can do the job".
Anybody voting for Abu Hunter at this point must know that, even if he wins, the chances are very high they are going to get President Harris at some stage and probably quite soon.
Everyone saying Biden is a safer bet than Trump because senility trumps (lol) insanity seems to have forgotten all the wars that have broken out in the last few years, versus general improvements to world stability that we saw under Trump.
Maybe the US can't take four more years of Trump (although I can't see what he'd try that he hasn't already), but I don't think the world can handle four more years of Biden.
You carry on with that there "thinking". You might get the hang of it one day.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
"My heart sank as he floundered his way through his responses, fumbling with his notes, uncharacteristically lost for words. He looked tired and bewildered,"
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
A fair point. However I do not ever recall Reagan making as many appalling gaffes or doing weird frozen demented things as Biden does
Also, the world is a crueller place, and politicians must stand in the harsh light of 24/7 social media, where the tiniest error goes viral
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
"My heart sank as he floundered his way through his responses, fumbling with his notes, uncharacteristically lost for words. He looked tired and bewildered,"
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
I mean the world didn't implode, but Reagan was an awful president ideologically anyway. It wasn't like presenile Reagan was really calling the shots - he was the face of movement conservatism and a good actor who could deliver his lines. Biden can't even do that.
What percentage of US presidents fall into your awful ideologically category? Guessing closer to 100% than even 70%?
He is not my cup of tea either, but his ideology isn't particularly relevant to Biden comparisons. The ability of the institution of the Presidency to survive an old candidate with significant memory problems is however proven.
The ability of the the Presidency to survive a wannabee dictator was tested to its limits last time and will fail if Trump is elected this time.
True - they are / were all terrible. But of the modern era (which arguably starts with Reagan) Reagan is arguably the worst, if not only because his administration is what set the foundation of all to come after it. Then Trump, Bush Jr, and then I'd say Bush Sr, Clinton and Obama are all equally bad in different ways (maybe that's unfair, but Obama did waste a political moment where he could have got a lot more done, and didn't, and he also created the entire drone warfare infrastructure and then handed that to Trump). I mean, outside of Israel and the border, Biden has probably been the best POTUS in terms of what he has got done but a) that's damning with faint praise and b) still not good enough to save him.
Also - I agree, it is super important that Trump does not win this election (as it was super important he didn't win his first one). So people should be blaming the DNC, the party apparatus of hundreds and thousands of people, who let a) Hillary Clinton, one of the least popular politicians ever, run against him the first time and b) now let a very unpopular and clearly unwell POTUS run against him a second time after only barely beating him the first time.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
"My heart sank as he floundered his way through his responses, fumbling with his notes, uncharacteristically lost for words. He looked tired and bewildered,"
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
A fair point. However I do not ever recall Reagan making as many appalling gaffes or doing weird frozen demented things as Biden does
Also, the world is a crueller place, and politicians must stand in the harsh light of 24/7 social media, where the tiniest error goes viral
Reagan feels like a titan compared to Biden or Trump
This would have been well after he was shot too. He was shot on 30th March 1981.
I checked. It's 1987, halfway through his SECOND term (so much for him being gaga then). Also a few weeks after major surgery consequent on his 1981 shooting. Deeply impressive
That is what a sane, smart, capable president looks like and sounds like; we have forgotten after eight years of Trump, then Biden
Biden to make surprise address Joe Biden will deliver a speech at 7.45pm (12:45am GMT), the White House has announced, in a last-minute addition to his schedule for the day.
And it's a catastrophe. Biden shouting at reporters saying he's not senile.... then immediately confuses Mexico with Egypt
He's fucked. Biden is finished. That's it
The Dems have a stark choice, proceed with Biden and face a very probable defeat to Trump - or, indeed, anyone - or move very quick and replace him with Not Kamala Harris
You keep doing this. Nobody who's concern is "Biden is senile" is then going to decide to vote for Trump - who is senile and demented.
Everything you say about Biden *is also true* about Trump. You point to the huge problem with the dem candidate saying nothing about how the gop candidate has the same problem.
If you are a Trump supporter like luckyguy just say so. Stop dancing round your handbag.
Oh FFS. This piffling drivel is why I am close to quitting PB
In this fucking thread I say Trump is a "crazed weirdo", and I also say he is a "seriously poor candidate, with his own cognitive issues, and a ton of legal shit hanging around", I also say that GPT4 could be a better president than him, and much else. Look, it's there, right there, just below this
That's all in the last hour. If you can't be bothered to read threads then don't fucking comment on them
So, Biden is preferable to Trump, right?
I mean - not to defend Leon here - but I do think the DNC are throwing away this election. Trump is a seriously unpopular candidate mired in legal troubles and with his own mental and temperamental deficiencies to be president. The problem is that Biden's age, and the impact it has on his ability to be POTUS, is demonstrably an issue to American voters - Democratic or otherwise. Sure, Biden and the DNC didn't want to essentially announce Biden's lame duckhood right at the beginning of his presidency, and they wanted to avoid a messy primary battle which would create ideological splits in the party and could possibly see more progressive candidates win or be able to leverage for policy wins - but the alternative is Trump.
And we need to stop buying in to the argument that voters owe their politicians anything - politicians are their to convince voters to vote for them, and if they fail at that that's on them, not the electorate.
Again, as disquieting as it is, I agree with Leon. Biden is likely not going to beat Trump. The Democratic base are unhappy with him about Gaza, the youth vote that in part helped him overperform is leaving in droves, and he is even losing some of the typical Democratic base of African Americans. The main things going for him are independents really don't like Trump and older white people like Biden more than the average Dem. But I don't know if that's enough to win - although there has been some speculation that Biden may be able to lose the popular vote and still win with the EC given where his popularity has risen and fallen.
Either way - the DNC could do the right thing and take Biden's age off the board as an issue very easily. but they won't - because this is their modus operandi. They did it with Feinstein, they did it with Harry Reid (and, tbf the GOP seem to be doing it now with Mitch McConnell) - keep the old and infirm in their seats and let the staffers do all the hard work in an attempt to prevent ideological eruptions happening when the person inevitably has to be replaced. It isn't like Biden has a rabid base just for him, like Trump does. The DNC could replace him and most of the base would shrug and go "yeah, that makes sense" rather than scream "deep state trying to bring down the messiah".
By what mechanism?
Harris - straightforward, but all evidence says she is more likely to lose than Biden, so why? Obama - could be negotiated if Harris and Biden both are willing to step aside, and they can convince someone who is adamant she doesn't want it. She would win the election too, but she won't stand.
Anyone else - too late for primary season so some kind of mass bunfight exposing deep divisions within the party, pulling it further away from the centre and no guarantee of finding a candidate more electable than Biden.
It is far from easy.
They should have allowed a real primary to happen - this isn't a new issue, it's just that more and more evidence is coming out to bolster it as an issue; Biden's age has basically been one of the biggest drains on his support after the midterms.
I think the mechanism will have to be a really chaotic convention. Jill wheels Joe out onto a stage, says "look, he can't do this, I'm sorry" and then the DNC descends into utter madness as many of the candidates in waiting start trying to schmooze a load of delegates who suddenly can vote for whoever they want.
The other option would be to remove Harris as VP for the GE. You're right that Harris is also unpopular - so if you've got a POTUS that looks like he could fall down dead at any moment you need a VP that people trust. Swap her out for someone better liked, and people may hold their nose and go "well, at least if Biden does go over the edge, the next person in line is someone who can do the job".
A convention bunfight and/or openly ditching a black female VP are pretty much guaranteed ways to lose the election.
No one, including Democratic African American voters, wanted Kamala Harris to be POTUS. If anything I would assume a big sigh of relief from much of the centre-left and left base of the party if Harris' was taken off. She isn't a very good politician.
Biden to make surprise address Joe Biden will deliver a speech at 7.45pm (12:45am GMT), the White House has announced, in a last-minute addition to his schedule for the day.
And it's a catastrophe. Biden shouting at reporters saying he's not senile.... then immediately confuses Mexico with Egypt
He's fucked. Biden is finished. That's it
The Dems have a stark choice, proceed with Biden and face a very probable defeat to Trump - or, indeed, anyone - or move very quick and replace him with Not Kamala Harris
You keep doing this. Nobody who's concern is "Biden is senile" is then going to decide to vote for Trump - who is senile and demented.
Everything you say about Biden *is also true* about Trump. You point to the huge problem with the dem candidate saying nothing about how the gop candidate has the same problem.
If you are a Trump supporter like luckyguy just say so. Stop dancing round your handbag.
Oh FFS. This piffling drivel is why I am close to quitting PB
In this fucking thread I say Trump is a "crazed weirdo", and I also say he is a "seriously poor candidate, with his own cognitive issues, and a ton of legal shit hanging around", I also say that GPT4 could be a better president than him, and much else. Look, it's there, right there, just below this
That's all in the last hour. If you can't be bothered to read threads then don't fucking comment on them
So, Biden is preferable to Trump, right?
I mean - not to defend Leon here - but I do think the DNC are throwing away this election. Trump is a seriously unpopular candidate mired in legal troubles and with his own mental and temperamental deficiencies to be president. The problem is that Biden's age, and the impact it has on his ability to be POTUS, is demonstrably an issue to American voters - Democratic or otherwise. Sure, Biden and the DNC didn't want to essentially announce Biden's lame duckhood right at the beginning of his presidency, and they wanted to avoid a messy primary battle which would create ideological splits in the party and could possibly see more progressive candidates win or be able to leverage for policy wins - but the alternative is Trump.
And we need to stop buying in to the argument that voters owe their politicians anything - politicians are their to convince voters to vote for them, and if they fail at that that's on them, not the electorate.
Again, as disquieting as it is, I agree with Leon. Biden is likely not going to beat Trump. The Democratic base are unhappy with him about Gaza, the youth vote that in part helped him overperform is leaving in droves, and he is even losing some of the typical Democratic base of African Americans. The main things going for him are independents really don't like Trump and older white people like Biden more than the average Dem. But I don't know if that's enough to win - although there has been some speculation that Biden may be able to lose the popular vote and still win with the EC given where his popularity has risen and fallen.
Either way - the DNC could do the right thing and take Biden's age off the board as an issue very easily. but they won't - because this is their modus operandi. They did it with Feinstein, they did it with Harry Reid (and, tbf the GOP seem to be doing it now with Mitch McConnell) - keep the old and infirm in their seats and let the staffers do all the hard work in an attempt to prevent ideological eruptions happening when the person inevitably has to be replaced. It isn't like Biden has a rabid base just for him, like Trump does. The DNC could replace him and most of the base would shrug and go "yeah, that makes sense" rather than scream "deep state trying to bring down the messiah".
By what mechanism?
Harris - straightforward, but all evidence says she is more likely to lose than Biden, so why? Obama - could be negotiated if Harris and Biden both are willing to step aside, and they can convince someone who is adamant she doesn't want it. She would win the election too, but she won't stand.
Anyone else - too late for primary season so some kind of mass bunfight exposing deep divisions within the party, pulling it further away from the centre and no guarantee of finding a candidate more electable than Biden.
It is far from easy.
They should have allowed a real primary to happen - this isn't a new issue, it's just that more and more evidence is coming out to bolster it as an issue; Biden's age has basically been one of the biggest drains on his support after the midterms.
I think the mechanism will have to be a really chaotic convention. Jill wheels Joe out onto a stage, says "look, he can't do this, I'm sorry" and then the DNC descends into utter madness as many of the candidates in waiting start trying to schmooze a load of delegates who suddenly can vote for whoever they want.
The other option would be to remove Harris as VP for the GE. You're right that Harris is also unpopular - so if you've got a POTUS that looks like he could fall down dead at any moment you need a VP that people trust. Swap her out for someone better liked, and people may hold their nose and go "well, at least if Biden does go over the edge, the next person in line is someone who can do the job".
Anybody voting for Abu Hunter at this point must know that, even if he wins, the chances are very high they are going to get President Harris at some stage and probably quite soon.
I think that is probably true. The same was true of those who voted for FDR in 1944, of course, they were likely to get Truman, and they did. But how widely that was known at the time is not clear to me. Obviously the media were nothing like as intrusive then and there was a war on.
I think reservations about VP Harris will be a drag on the ticket but god knows what loon Trump is going to come up with.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
"My heart sank as he floundered his way through his responses, fumbling with his notes, uncharacteristically lost for words. He looked tired and bewildered,"
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
A fair point. However I do not ever recall Reagan making as many appalling gaffes or doing weird frozen demented things as Biden does
Also, the world is a crueller place, and politicians must stand in the harsh light of 24/7 social media, where the tiniest error goes viral
Reagan feels like a titan compared to Biden or Trump
This would have been well after he was shot too. He was shot on 30th March 1981.
I checked. It's 1987, halfway through his SECOND term (so much for him being gaga then). Also a few weeks after major surgery consequent on his 1981 shooting. Deeply impressive
That is what a sane, smart, capable president looks like and sounds like; we have forgotten after eight years of Trump, then Biden
I suppose the counterargument is that we don't need to go back that far. Obama was an extremely articulate and intelligent President. He was just pretty poor at the job.
Saying "I don't recall if I was Vice President" doesn't fall into the same category as saying "I don't recall if I was in that bank on January 25th holding a gun pointing at the cashiers".
Trump as is or Biden as is? Tough call. If Biden runs and wins his team will be running the show, which is fair enough but an acknowledged sham is not how American politics usually works. You vote for the guy and I would perfectly understand people who would choose to vote for Trump in such a situation.
I mean if you are saying that it's nothing to do with the President and all about his team then why doesn't that apply to Trump also...
Because we have empirical evidence that it doesn't. Who are the members of this 'Trump team' in which you hypothetically place such faith ?
You seem to be saying Trump is a demon and we shouldn't vote for him because he, personally, is likely to do mad things, while it's fine to vote in a senile Biden because his team will run the show. If you think the Rep team is as dreadful as Trump why the demonisation of Trump.
Because he's a narcissistic asshole who doesn't have a 'team'.
If you can't tell the difference between someone clearly capable of delegating, and someone who clearly isn't, than we don't have much to talk about.
You are always borderline not worth talking to but you seem in this instance to be missing the point.
You are saying Trump doesn't have a team. I disagree. I think he does have a team. He makes senior appointments and has a team around him and that's his team. If you genuinely think he has no one around him, like @Alanbrooke in the UK you disqualify yourself from being able to comment on US politics.
Either it is a team effort in which case it doesn't matter if Biden is gaga or you think Trump is a madman or it is a one-man band in which case it does matter in both instances.
Yours is a logic fail.
What is clear that his previous team, almost to a man or woman, are now described as morons, idiots, having very small brains, overrated, etc by the man himself despite him nominating them.
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
I think that is projection. There will be plenty of people willing to work with POTUS. Some good some not so good. He will have a team.
The first 3 paragraphs are not a projection, they are his track record. And its abysmal.
Not the point. The point, for the umpteenth time this morning, is that one can either say vote for Biden because although he is gaga his team will be running the show; or one can say get rid of Biden because POTUS is very much a one-man show.
But the same applies to Trump. People are saying that you can vote for Biden knowing that his team will be running the show, while at the same time saying that voting for Trump would be voting for Trump and Trump alone.
I think I have made my point now so will allow PB to work it all out.
Biden is collegiate, Trump acts capriciously. I'd say that's the key difference. So with Trump there's more risk around the person.
Watching Biden is excruciating and he seems to be getting worse
I am really sorry for him and his rapid decline, and hope he gets the correct advice to stand down and the care only a loving family can provide him
I also recognise his decline in some of our friends and it is very upsetting
However, he is the POTUS and the Democrats just have to replace him with someone who can beat Trump
At least with Biden you can sympathise, but with Trump you recoil in horror at the thought of his second coming
Yes, that's astute
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
I've seen dementia at close hand, and it is mostly about memory, rather than judgment. Biden's defenders - and I'm one, on the whole - say that yes, he can forget the name of a foreign leader and get dates mixed up, but he's been a pretty effective President in making the right calls at the right time. Trump, by contrast, consistently makes bad calls with indifference if he reckons they will benefit him.
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Your loyalty is admirable, but you are ignoring one key thing. The report into Biden's possibly-illegal hoarding of sensitive documents
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
Looks like the Dems will have to call on Taylor Swift
Wow, that’s horrible to read. So sad for the guy, but he really can’t carry on. Time for the cabinet to call the 25th amendment on him, and then work out how to deal with the Kamala problem?
Post #54223 predicting the political death of Joe Biden.
I'd expected this forum to be full of betting posts given Biden is still heavily odds on to be the Democratic candidate. I've done some, but in truth amazed he has not completely collapsed.
Post #54224
Unless he actually dies he's going nowhere.
The worry is that you’re right.
But this court judgement is a whole lot worse than any of Trump’s, they’re actually saying that the sitting president has totally lost his mind.
Trump’s going to start running ads tomorrow in swing states saying that Biden’s mentally unwell.
Wow, that’s horrible to read. So sad for the guy, but he really can’t carry on. Time for the cabinet to call the 25th amendment on him, and then work out how to deal with the Kamala problem?
Post #54223 predicting the political death of Joe Biden.
I'd expected this forum to be full of betting posts given Biden is still heavily odds on to be the Democratic candidate. I've done some, but in truth amazed he has not completely collapsed.
Post #54224
Unless he actually dies he's going nowhere.
The worry is that you’re right.
But this court judgement is a whole lot worse than any of Trump’s, they’re actually saying that the sitting president has totally lost his mind.
Trump’s going to start running ads tomorrow in swing states saying that Biden’s mentally unwell.
Comments
But Biden wants it. Harris wants it. And Obama doesn't. So the acca of those three all reversing is a very big price.
Can't we get it over with now?
- If you don't vote, you've passively acquiesced to whoever wins and refused any chance of stopping them
- If you do vote, you've actively endorsed someone you dislike and disapprove of, and your vote is taken as a mandate for them.
The only solution would seem to be to change things to increase the width of options to hopefully give more chance of providing at least one that's not too unpleasant. That, though, is far easier said than done.
Maybe the US can't take four more years of Trump (although I can't see what he'd try that he hasn't already), but I don't think the world can handle four more years of Biden.
The other thing about Biden is that many observers note his strong belief that only he can beat Trump. This seems to hold him in place, and it may be very hard to change his mind on it.
So yes there is a scenario where the men in grey suits step forward and tell him to go, but it’ll be a wrenching experience and not one I see him easily accepting.
The thing about dementia is that so many of us have witnessed it, often multiple times (tragically). It is absolutely obvious that Biden has some form of this, his forgetfulness is now on an epic scale, thinking he talked to Mitterand or Kohl, he can barely string a sentence without stumbling. The Dems can no longer pretend "he has a stutter". Just look at him and listen to him for five minutes, he will remind you of some good friend or family member in their decline.
It is sad. It is distressing to watch. And, as we all know, it will get worse and worse, and then he dies. And Americans are not going to vote for four more years of watching their 85 year old president turn into a drooling blob, and then expire
And yet, still people deny he is senile. @SouthamObserver does it below. What is the point? That prolongs the agony
Far better to admit it, yank the old guy off stage, do it ASAFP
And, yes, @RochdalePioneers much of this applies to Trump he's just not as far gone as Biden (which actually makes Trump more dangerous, he is still capable of getting things done)
And then you look at his lawyers starting with Giuliani, now bankrupt, and many more who have been disbarred and fined for putting forward his misrepresentations. Even his current lawyers seem determined to piss off a Judge who is about to impose massive penalties on him for his dishonest way of doing business. And his former CFO of his business is negotiating a perjury plea.
And then you look what he has done to the GOP in both the Senate and the Congress and the complete asses they have made of themselves voting down their own bill and failing to pass an impeachment motion because someone turns up from hospital. All because they are following his instructions.
The idea that anyone even vaguely competent is going to take the risks of working with or even being associated with this man is very far fetched. The idea that he would listen to them if they felt some sort of public duty to take up the post is even more preposterous.
Ebbw Vale South counting today.
And we need to stop buying in to the argument that voters owe their politicians anything - politicians are their to convince voters to vote for them, and if they fail at that that's on them, not the electorate.
Again, as disquieting as it is, I agree with Leon. Biden is likely not going to beat Trump. The Democratic base are unhappy with him about Gaza, the youth vote that in part helped him overperform is leaving in droves, and he is even losing some of the typical Democratic base of African Americans. The main things going for him are independents really don't like Trump and older white people like Biden more than the average Dem. But I don't know if that's enough to win - although there has been some speculation that Biden may be able to lose the popular vote and still win with the EC given where his popularity has risen and fallen.
Either way - the DNC could do the right thing and take Biden's age off the board as an issue very easily. but they won't - because this is their modus operandi. They did it with Feinstein, they did it with Harry Reid (and, tbf the GOP seem to be doing it now with Mitch McConnell) - keep the old and infirm in their seats and let the staffers do all the hard work in an attempt to prevent ideological eruptions happening when the person inevitably has to be replaced. It isn't like Biden has a rabid base just for him, like Trump does. The DNC could replace him and most of the base would shrug and go "yeah, that makes sense" rather than scream "deep state trying to bring down the messiah".
But the same applies to Trump. People are saying that you can vote for Biden knowing that his team will be running the show, while at the same time saying that voting for Trump would be voting for Trump and Trump alone.
I think I have made my point now so will allow PB to work it all out.
Edited extra bit: while my first campaign, I've watched a lot of lore videos and related stuff so luckily I had a running start which has made things a little easier than they might be.
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced Biden must go and probably will go
Why? Because watching him is now so painful, seeing someone decline fast is a horrible spectacle, even in a close domestic setting. My mum has diagnosed dementia, it is not nice to see, to put it very very mildly
Who wants an extra load of that in their life, in the form of the US President, leader of the free world, mentally crumbling into nothing, over four agonising years, on TV, and everyone in his team pretending he is fine? No one. It is hideous. Not gonna happen
He has to go
Elderly people do struggle with names and dates - I do myself sometimes, and I've only just turned 74 - but that's not a fatal flaw in most jobs (I'm still doing three at once). Would Harris be a better President than Biden? Maybe, and quite possibly we'll find out sometime in the next 4 years. She'd certainly be better than Trump.
So it comes down to who the Dems have got who would actually do better at beating Trump, after a divisive row to unseat Biden. Nobody.
Too much has been invested. Logos made. Step forward, Hunter Biden.
Afghanistan is an irrelevancy in the broader geopolitical context since there's never been any evidence the Taliban care much about anything beyond their own borders. They have hopefully learned their lesson about sheltering and aiding people who do.
Harris - straightforward, but all evidence says she is more likely to lose than Biden, so why?
Obama - could be negotiated if Harris and Biden both are willing to step aside, and they can convince someone who is adamant she doesn't want it. She would win the election too, but she won't stand.
Anyone else - too late for primary season so some kind of mass bunfight exposing deep divisions within the party, pulling it further away from the centre and no guarantee of finding a candidate more electable than Biden.
It is far from easy.
The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the investigator decided that no jury would convict Biden, because his lawyers woulds successfully blame his senility and forgetfulness
From the NYT
"The investigation into Mr. Biden’s handling of the documents after being vice president concluded that he was a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” and had “diminished faculties in advancing age” — such startling assertions that they prompted a fiery and emotional attempt at political damage control from the president within hours."
"In the report, Mr. Hur said the memory of the then-80-year-old president was so hazy during five hours of interviews over two days that it would be difficult to convince jurors that Mr. Biden knew his handling of the documents was wrong. Mr. Hur predicted in the report that if the president were charged, his lawyers “would emphasize these limitations in his recall.”
In the report, Mr. Hur wrote that in a 2017 recorded conversation between Mr. Biden and the ghostwriter for his book, Mr. Biden struggled to “remember events” and was “straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries.” Mr. Hur said that the interviews in 2023 with investigators were even worse.
“He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being vice president?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still vice president?’),” the report said. “He did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.”
This man cannot serve another 4 years as POTUS
Reagan's son about his dad in 1984. Another 4 years served without the world imploding.
She has gone backwards presentationally as VP though which is really weird.
There are parallels between her and H Clinton. I could imagine her enthusing the same type of voters as she did, yet really put off others.
https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3889
On Ukraine views will differ about prospects and outcomes, but it is not easy to defend the invasion of a sovereign state.
On net zero, many commentators are aware that the science is uncertain and that if it is correct we are stuffed, come what may. But it may all be wrong.
There is no consensus whatever on migration, views varying from Zero to Freedom of movement.
On trans, I am too old to remember what this is about, but it is something to do with norms and exceptions and language. The debate rages SFAICS, and JK Rowling is something to do with it, as is Cyclefree.
All non woke positions that are arguable (and some that are not) are regularly aired in the Speccie, DTel, Mail, GB News, LBC, and here.
Also, the world is a crueller place, and politicians must stand in the harsh light of 24/7 social media, where the tiniest error goes viral
About nine years ago I get meningitis, which totally mucked up my memory, and particularly my short-term memory. The worst effects lasted about nine months (standing at the burglar alarm crying because I couldn't remember a code I'd entered hundreds of times before, making Mrs J a cup of tea, taking it to her study, then going downstairs and making another cup). It's got better, but I've no idea if it's back to where it was.
And I think that's an issue with gradual decline: what's the baseline? How do you metricise memory? There must be ways that will allow you to monitor gradual decline.
Newsom might win the popular vote but would be no more popular in the rustbelt than Hillary was
However I'm fully capable of making decisions, persuading people, leading a team of political activists and a local charity.
Now what was the point I was trying to make?
Bob Monkhouse recalling the Sunday Mirror attack on his disabled son, himself & his family in 1993.
https://x.com/johnnypapa64/status/1755814271215100282?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UowNDaxRqU
That practised on a fife:
He looked again, and found it was
A letter from his wife.
'At length I realise,' he said,
The bitterness of Life!'
But she doesn't have the weight of the world on her shoulders. 10 years ago she would cook for the family (her kids, grandkids and sister plus partners, so anywhere between a dozen and 15 of us) every week, no problem. Now she finds the idea horrific - the anxiety, the fatigue, just the idea of that many people in the house, etc. And that is nowhere near the kind of pressure the POTUS is under!
Thankyou for that
Reagan feels like a titan compared to Biden or Trump
He is not my cup of tea either, but his ideology isn't particularly relevant to Biden comparisons. The ability of the institution of the Presidency to survive an old candidate with significant memory problems is however proven.
The ability of the the Presidency to survive a wannabee dictator was tested to its limits last time and will fail if Trump is elected this time.
I think the mechanism will have to be a really chaotic convention. Jill wheels Joe out onto a stage, says "look, he can't do this, I'm sorry" and then the DNC descends into utter madness as many of the candidates in waiting start trying to schmooze a load of delegates who suddenly can vote for whoever they want.
The other option would be to remove Harris as VP for the GE. You're right that Harris is also unpopular - so if you've got a POTUS that looks like he could fall down dead at any moment you need a VP that people trust. Swap her out for someone better liked, and people may hold their nose and go "well, at least if Biden does go over the edge, the next person in line is someone who can do the job".
Also - I agree, it is super important that Trump does not win this election (as it was super important he didn't win his first one). So people should be blaming the DNC, the party apparatus of hundreds and thousands of people, who let a) Hillary Clinton, one of the least popular politicians ever, run against him the first time and b) now let a very unpopular and clearly unwell POTUS run against him a second time after only barely beating him the first time.
That is what a sane, smart, capable president looks like and sounds like; we have forgotten after eight years of Trump, then Biden
I think reservations about VP Harris will be a drag on the ticket but god knows what loon Trump is going to come up with.
But this court judgement is a whole lot worse than any of Trump’s, they’re actually saying that the sitting president has totally lost his mind.
Trump’s going to start running ads tomorrow in swing states saying that Biden’s mentally unwell.