You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
NEW: The cost of the govt’s Rwanda scheme has *doubled* before a single migrant has been sent there. Home Office admits tonight it has handed over another £100m this year, on top of the original £140m cost - with a further £50m to follow next year
I hadn’t quite appreciated the numbers involved in the Ukraine drone war.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/12/07/inside-ukraines-campaign-to-crush-russia-with-combat-drones/?sw345d … Ukraine buys 60% of the total production volume of Chinese Mavic drones, excluding other UAV purchases, Prime Minister of Ukraine Denys Shmyhal stated during the Kyiv International Economic Forum. The minister most likely referred to both state and volunteer-purchased drones, according to the data of the customs service.
“This year, we have allocated an additional UAH 40 billion to purchase drones. These are drones of Ukrainian and foreign production. Ukraine buys 60% of the entire world production of Mavic,” Shmyhal said…
The west needs to take a good look at how much China dominates world production. Soon.
I was reading a sci-fi novel this week which postulated a near future with the two dominant powers being China and...Japan, with the USA coming up in a distant third.
I assumed it must have been published a long time ago, but no, 2011, making it seem a little less plausible.
Oh, which one was that, please?
Through Struggle, the Stars, by John Lumpkin. Pretty decent, definitely more of a character and political focused story as a cold war turns hot in space, than more fantastical fare.
Mm, thanks: Obviously a riff on the RAF motto. Will look up.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
There is, of course, the small point about actually *starting* in academia. If I were a professor I'd be pretty pissed off at the way in which recruitment was so brutally being amputated at the starting levels. And being a good professor means having good people all the way down the scale.
No, just excessive foreign researchers are being restricted.
Whereas you want to prevent lots of British phd students from being able to get research posts in academia after qualification by giving half those posts to foreign immigrants!
Try getting your ceiling plastered in December!
I don't count the number of PhD students - British or foreign - as an unequivocal index of economic wellbeing.
Even ChatGPT can't plaster my ceiling.
British plastering jobs for British plasterers too!
I hadn’t quite appreciated the numbers involved in the Ukraine drone war.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/12/07/inside-ukraines-campaign-to-crush-russia-with-combat-drones/?sw345d … Ukraine buys 60% of the total production volume of Chinese Mavic drones, excluding other UAV purchases, Prime Minister of Ukraine Denys Shmyhal stated during the Kyiv International Economic Forum. The minister most likely referred to both state and volunteer-purchased drones, according to the data of the customs service.
“This year, we have allocated an additional UAH 40 billion to purchase drones. These are drones of Ukrainian and foreign production. Ukraine buys 60% of the entire world production of Mavic,” Shmyhal said…
The west needs to take a good look at how much China dominates world production. Soon.
I hadn’t quite appreciated the numbers involved in the Ukraine drone war.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/12/07/inside-ukraines-campaign-to-crush-russia-with-combat-drones/?sw345d … Ukraine buys 60% of the total production volume of Chinese Mavic drones, excluding other UAV purchases, Prime Minister of Ukraine Denys Shmyhal stated during the Kyiv International Economic Forum. The minister most likely referred to both state and volunteer-purchased drones, according to the data of the customs service.
“This year, we have allocated an additional UAH 40 billion to purchase drones. These are drones of Ukrainian and foreign production. Ukraine buys 60% of the entire world production of Mavic,” Shmyhal said…
The west needs to take a good look at how much China dominates world production. Soon.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
Also, much of research is now effectively teamwork (some always was, vide Cuvier and his school in Paris in the early C19 for instance). HYUFD is insane if he thinks not allowing the top grade without allowing the lower grades is going to work. Of course, it would be the courteous thing to assume he is sane and deliberately wants to run British universities into the ground just because.
When I worked in NZ 3 decades ago, the Medical Director of the Hospital had come up with a brilliant wheeze. First year trainee anaesthetists were essentially supernumerary as needing constant supervision, so he decided to only employ 2nd year and higher trainees to save a few bucks.
Within a couple of years there was an anaesthetic staffing crisis cancelling operating lists.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
There is, of course, the small point about actually *starting* in academia. If I were a professor I'd be pretty pissed off at the way in which recruitment was so brutally being amputated at the starting levels. And being a good professor means having good people all the way down the scale.
Indeed, appointing key lieutenants is an essential part of a successful professorial career.
I know precious little about medicine, thankfully, but as a faculty husband I've long since come to the conclusion that UK universities are a Ponzi scheme that would have imploded years ago if we hadn't been able to sell our initial investment to foreigners. I can't deny they are all very clever - in some cases cleverer than I - but I doubt if cooking up ever more ingenious social theories is a good use of their brains. The problem being that the doctrine of academic freedom means they can (and will) study anything and everything that interests them, regardless of utility.
I think there is a fundamental clash of ideas of what university is for.
Is it the utilitarian idea of preparing people for a life time of work?
Is it to push the boundaries of knowledge and ideas?
Is it to innovate and research?
Is it a social finishing school for those who wish to join the British middle classes?
Is it a product to sell to overseas students as an income earner for the country?
We really haven't decided, and these objectives do have quite fundamental clashes.
For me it was a way to leave home and escape my barren northern town for London. That's what it did for me. I suppose that's closest to your 'finishing school for joining the middle class' but it isn't quite.
@LeeAndersonMP_ For too long these namby pamby, hand-wringing, pearl clutching, Britain bashing, EU fanatics, and illegal migrants encouraged by lefty lawyers with no moral compass haved used our courts to frustrate democracy. Parliament is sovereign and we must stop the boats. We must deliver on behalf of the Great British public.
Do you ever wonder how others would conduct themselves if born in a different time or country? i.e. Netanyahu grew up on the other side of the wall or Putin's now the son of a Home Counties head teacher etc etc.
Is it only circumstance that means Lee isn't pushing people out of helicopters or helping to disappear protestors?
i guess this is what the UNHCR advertisers were getting at
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
There is, of course, the small point about actually *starting* in academia. If I were a professor I'd be pretty pissed off at the way in which recruitment was so brutally being amputated at the starting levels. And being a good professor means having good people all the way down the scale.
Indeed, appointing key lieutenants is an essential part of a successful professorial career.
I know precious little about medicine, thankfully, but as a faculty husband I've long since come to the conclusion that UK universities are a Ponzi scheme that would have imploded years ago if we hadn't been able to sell our initial investment to foreigners. I can't deny they are all very clever - in some cases cleverer than I - but I doubt if cooking up ever more ingenious social theories is a good use of their brains. The problem being that the doctrine of academic freedom means they can (and will) study anything and everything that interests them, regardless of utility.
I think there is a fundamental clash of ideas of what university is for.
Is it the utilitarian idea of preparing people for a life time of work?
Is it to push the boundaries of knowledge and ideas?
Is it to innovate and research?
Is it a social finishing school for those who wish to join the British middle classes?
Is it a product to sell to overseas students as an income earner for the country?
We really haven't decided, and these objectives do have quite fundamental clashes.
For me it was a way to leave home and escape my barren northern town for London. That's what it did for me. I suppose that's closest to your 'finishing school for joining the middle class' but it isn't quite.
Yes, education has always been an escape from the mundane prospect of a job in the hometown. It was a large part of why I went.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
There is, of course, the small point about actually *starting* in academia. If I were a professor I'd be pretty pissed off at the way in which recruitment was so brutally being amputated at the starting levels. And being a good professor means having good people all the way down the scale.
Indeed, appointing key lieutenants is an essential part of a successful professorial career.
I know precious little about medicine, thankfully, but as a faculty husband I've long since come to the conclusion that UK universities are a Ponzi scheme that would have imploded years ago if we hadn't been able to sell our initial investment to foreigners. I can't deny they are all very clever - in some cases cleverer than I - but I doubt if cooking up ever more ingenious social theories is a good use of their brains. The problem being that the doctrine of academic freedom means they can (and will) study anything and everything that interests them, regardless of utility.
I think there is a fundamental clash of ideas of what university is for.
Is it the utilitarian idea of preparing people for a life time of work?
Is it to push the boundaries of knowledge and ideas?
Is it to innovate and research?
Is it a social finishing school for those who wish to join the British middle classes?
Is it a product to sell to overseas students as an income earner for the country?
We really haven't decided, and these objectives do have quite fundamental clashes.
A university is all of those things. The tension is in the balance.
And they are living communities. To a certain extent they are what those who work there want them to be but also to an increasing extent what government or 'the market' tells them to be.
As an example, there was relatively little interest within universities (old skool not the polys) with working with industry until 1990s and in particular Mandelson ideas about knowledge economy.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
@LeeAndersonMP_ For too long these namby pamby, hand-wringing, pearl clutching, Britain bashing, EU fanatics, and illegal migrants encouraged by lefty lawyers with no moral compass haved used our courts to frustrate democracy. Parliament is sovereign and we must stop the boats. We must deliver on behalf of the Great British public.
Do you ever wonder how others would conduct themselves if born in a different time or country? i.e. Netanyahu grew up on the other side of the wall or Putin's now the son of a Home Counties head teacher etc etc.
Is it only circumstance that means Lee isn't pushing people out of helicopters or helping to disappear protestors?
Possibly, though my more charitable impression is that he's just a bit try hard. Perhaps due to being a latecomer to the Tories he often comes across like he has a desperate need to prove his credentials in as loud and stereotypical a way as possible.
I'm sure he still believes what he says, but he has one eye on his brand, for sure.
Doesn't his brand now need to be Mr 40p, come to think of it? Inflation, innit, especially food.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
I'd guess that Oxford Research Fellows are the seed corn for Oxford University's success / reputation from 2030-2050.
Short-Term Rishi burning down something else to try and save his butt.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
@LeeAndersonMP_ For too long these namby pamby, hand-wringing, pearl clutching, Britain bashing, EU fanatics, and illegal migrants encouraged by lefty lawyers with no moral compass haved used our courts to frustrate democracy. Parliament is sovereign and we must stop the boats. We must deliver on behalf of the Great British public.
Do you ever wonder how others would conduct themselves if born in a different time or country? i.e. Netanyahu grew up on the other side of the wall or Putin's now the son of a Home Counties head teacher etc etc.
Is it only circumstance that means Lee isn't pushing people out of helicopters or helping to disappear protestors?
i guess this is what the UNHCR advertisers were getting at
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
Also, much of research is now effectively teamwork (some always was, vide Cuvier and his school in Paris in the early C19 for instance). HYUFD is insane if he thinks not allowing the top grade without allowing the lower grades is going to work. Of course, it would be the courteous thing to assume he is sane and deliberately wants to run British universities into the ground just because.
I would imagine he only wants public school students to attend Oxford and Cambridge, and only grammar school students to attend other universities.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
Also, much of research is now effectively teamwork (some always was, vide Cuvier and his school in Paris in the early C19 for instance). HYUFD is insane if he thinks not allowing the top grade without allowing the lower grades is going to work. Of course, it would be the courteous thing to assume he is sane and deliberately wants to run British universities into the ground just because.
I would imagine he only wants public school students to attend Oxford and Cambridge, and only grammar school students to attend other universities.
The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, The Lord made them high or lowly And ordered their estate.
NEW: The cost of the govt’s Rwanda scheme has *doubled* before a single migrant has been sent there. Home Office admits tonight it has handed over another £100m this year, on top of the original £140m cost - with a further £50m to follow next year
Seattle Times ($) - ‘Escape liberal hell’: Republicans really are fleeing WA
Danny Westneat - At first, the ads seemed like a pandemic-era curiosity, a niche political pitch playing on the red state, blue state divide.
“Escape liberal hell,” counseled one sales video from a Boise, Idaho, real estate agent. “Here are seven reasons conservatives flock to Idaho.” . . .
The idea that people would pick up and move solely for politics has seemed like a stretch. Moving for a job, schools, space, a rural lifestyle, yes. People relocate for all sorts of reasons — nearly 250,000 moved here from another U.S. state last year, with 258,000 going the other way, the Census Bureau says.
But now, there’s solid evidence that some people really are migrating over partisanship.
This past week, Idaho released a database of voters who have moved into that state, along with where they came from and what political party they signed up for when they got there. . . .
The political makeup of who has moved to Idaho is eye-opening. It is, as the Idaho Capital Sun news site called it, a “Republican fever dream.”
Of about 119,000 voters who relocated to Idaho in recent years, 65% signed up as Republican. That’s significantly higher than the partisan makeup of the state already, which is 58% GOP.
Only 12% of the newcomers registered as Democrats. About 21% picked “unaffiliated” and 2% chose a third party such as Libertarian.
The data explodes the myth that liberals, untethered due to remote work, might be moving to Idaho or other red states from San Francisco and Seattle and potentially turning the interior more purple. The exact opposite is happening — people are segregating into like-minded, polarized, geographical camps.
Sixty-two percent of Washingtonians who moved to Idaho registered as Republicans, the data shows. Only 12% were Democrats. Ours is a 60-40 blue state, roughly, so this means Republicans are preferentially sorting themselves out of Washington state at high rates. . . .
From Seattle, the data shows 34% who relocated to Idaho were GOPers. (Seattle tends to vote only about 10% Republican.) . . . .
It is a fever dream for Idaho Republicans to turn that state into a fortress against liberalism — an American redoubt, some of them call it.
But red migration like this to the interior is a nightmare for the Washington state GOP. Its own customers are fleeing.
You can now even choose your real estate agent by their politics. The company GOP Agent “is here to help you connect with a Real Estate Agent who shares your Republican ideals and values,” their website says.
“One of our realtors held an info session in Seattle (about moving to a red State), and had over 150 attendees,” according to the Conservative Move Facebook page. “The interest in moving to red states is not slowing down.”
I hope they warned them that Idaho has a state income tax. [Washington State does NOT.] Could be a sticker shock upon arrival.
There was an excellent Vox video a couple of years ago about how - in America - people are increasingly ghettoized. Democrats only know Democrats. Republicans only know Republicans.
And this is incredibly unhealthy. And, candidly, toxic for democracy. We need to know and understand why people have different views to us.
Even here inner cities are increasingly left liberal and rural areas conservative.
Suburbs and commuter towns do still have more of a mix of political views and thus determine elections too
The “rural areas conservative” rule which by and large applies in most of the country will be tested in the next election in a few areas, notably the Lib Dem targets in the SW.
Even there there are fewer LD rural target seats than in the 1990s.
Of the top 50 LD target seats most are in the Home counties or southern Remain seats.
This reflects Lib Dem blue wall thinking, which I think is potentially misplaced - overestimating their chances in the stockbroker belt and underestimating their chances in deep rural parts of the West. Certainly local election results (and a couple of by-elections) seem to bear this out.
Even in the local elections in May the Tories held councils in pro Brexit SW areas like Torbay the LDs won in 1997 while the LDs took control of lots of councils in Remain stockbroker belt Surrey and Oxfordshire where the Tories held seats in 1997.
And of course even in the by elections the LDs won a bigger majority in stockbroker belt Chesham and Amersham than say rural SW Tiverton and Honiton
I don’t expect them to return to 1997 levels but the point is this is a region the Tories have pretty much taken as read for nearly a decade now. Everyone knows about the trends in the blue wall but they’ve largely forgotten the blue hedgerow. Any gains there would have much greater shock factor than gains in Surrey.
Tiverton and Honiton and North Shropshire saw huge swings - 34 and 29%. I think the West will be an interesting region to watch,
In by elections on protest vote, in the local elections the LDs won no more councils in Devon than they did in Surrey.
On national swing indeed only 2 of the top 50 LD target seats are in Devon compared to 6 of the top 50 in Surrey. And no, Tory losses in Surrey would be far more of a shock than in Devon which has elected Liberal MPs on a regular basis as far back as Thorpe and beyond. True Blue Surrey would be demographically similar to the wealthy Teal seats traditionally Liberal which went Teal Independent in the Australian elections last year
You’re arguing against yourself there. “In the local elections the LDs won no more councils in Devon than they did in Surrey”: put another way, the LDs won as many councils in forgotten, recently written off Devon as in blue wall heartland where Tory MPs are quaking in their boots Surrey.
“True blue Surrey would be demographically similar to the wealthy Teal seats traditionally Liberal which went Teal Independent”: exactly, everyone has their eyes pinned on the blue wall. They saw what happened in Australia, and in the period after Brexit vote. They expect - rightly or wrongly - big LD advances there. They are ignoring the old Liberal heartland, and wider Wessex and Marches.
I expect a larger than national swing in the West, partly because it swung so far against the Lib Dems in 2015 and 2017.
The Yellow Wall!
No, That is Richmond Park, Kingston Upon Thames, Twickenham, Bath and West Oxford now
Two of which do actually have yellow walls as they’re build from oolitic limestone.
The political map of Macron support in France is an interesting analogue for areas of Lib Dem strength. Large swathes of rural Western France in areas that never industrialised. Plus the posher riverine suburbs of Paris and the limestone ridges of Eastern France (which tend to be the viticultural areas).
Vineyards are also an interesting divining rod for Lib Dem strength. The only areas they do well in councils in Kent for example are in the Eastern downs near Canterbury, and the high Weald around and South of Tunbridge Wells. Both clusters of vineyards. And in Essex they run Chelmsford which is the viticulture capital of the Crouch Valley.
And Spa Towns from Bath to Tunbridge Wells, Cheltenham to Harrogate
Is there something in the water?
Place generally still too posh to vote Labour but now too liberal for the post Brexit Conservatives
Does anyone have a list of Councils heavily dominated by Lib Dems?
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
Her status is not at risk thank goodness. She has a British passport now having been at Cambridge from undergraduate to now which is a period of 10 years, the same as my son. However I made the post to point out hyufd was wrong about young up and coming leading academic salaries. These people will be lost, unless universities increase the starting pay, which I guess may happen to keep them.
Yet - he strikes me as a bit of a Major type who will soldier on to the end "just in case something turns up".
Trump win in November will turn the world wargame board up on its end and we may well all be debating how NATO is coming to an end and the threat of Putin and so on. We may all be focused on stuff we are not now.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
There is, of course, the small point about actually *starting* in academia. If I were a professor I'd be pretty pissed off at the way in which recruitment was so brutally being amputated at the starting levels. And being a good professor means having good people all the way down the scale.
Indeed, appointing key lieutenants is an essential part of a successful professorial career.
I know precious little about medicine, thankfully, but as a faculty husband I've long since come to the conclusion that UK universities are a Ponzi scheme that would have imploded years ago if we hadn't been able to sell our initial investment to foreigners. I can't deny they are all very clever - in some cases cleverer than I - but I doubt if cooking up ever more ingenious social theories is a good use of their brains. The problem being that the doctrine of academic freedom means they can (and will) study anything and everything that interests them, regardless of utility.
I think there is a fundamental clash of ideas of what university is for.
Is it the utilitarian idea of preparing people for a life time of work?
Is it to push the boundaries of knowledge and ideas?
Is it to innovate and research?
Is it a social finishing school for those who wish to join the British middle classes?
Is it a product to sell to overseas students as an income earner for the country?
We really haven't decided, and these objectives do have quite fundamental clashes.
For me it was a way to leave home and escape my barren northern town for London. That's what it did for me. I suppose that's closest to your 'finishing school for joining the middle class' but it isn't quite.
Try as I might I can't forget that I'm just one generation removed from hard graft and grinding poverty. I can never rise above the assumption that wealth must be grown, manufactured or dug out of the ground. Arbitrary advancement has been personally convenient but hasn't done much for the world at large.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
Free accommodation is a big plus. A Mon-Fri rent in Oxford would be about £500pcm.
Yet - he strikes me as a bit of a Major type who will soldier on to the end "just in case something turns up".
Trump win in November will turn the world wargame board up on its end and we may well all be debating how NATO is coming to an end and the threat of Putin and so on. We may all be focused on stuff we are not now.
I like wildcard bets.
He did look very stressed out in the press conference.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
Also, much of research is now effectively teamwork (some always was, vide Cuvier and his school in Paris in the early C19 for instance). HYUFD is insane if he thinks not allowing the top grade without allowing the lower grades is going to work. Of course, it would be the courteous thing to assume he is sane and deliberately wants to run British universities into the ground just because.
When I worked in NZ 3 decades ago, the Medical Director of the Hospital had come up with a brilliant wheeze. First year trainee anaesthetists were essentially supernumerary as needing constant supervision, so he decided to only employ 2nd year and higher trainees to save a few bucks.
Within a couple of years there was an anaesthetic staffing crisis cancelling operating lists.
Yet - he strikes me as a bit of a Major type who will soldier on to the end "just in case something turns up".
Trump win in November will turn the world wargame board up on its end and we may well all be debating how NATO is coming to an end and the threat of Putin and so on. We may all be focused on stuff we are not now.
I like wildcard bets.
He did look very stressed out in the press conference.
It's just not happening as his spreadsheet said it would.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
I think, if you think about it hard enough, you will find that you are wrong and HY is right. For he has read The Mail. And The Word Was Good.
Yet - he strikes me as a bit of a Major type who will soldier on to the end "just in case something turns up".
Trump win in November will turn the world wargame board up on its end and we may well all be debating how NATO is coming to an end and the threat of Putin and so on. We may all be focused on stuff we are not now.
I like wildcard bets.
He did look very stressed out in the press conference.
It's just not happening as his spreadsheet said it would.
Yet - he strikes me as a bit of a Major type who will soldier on to the end "just in case something turns up".
Trump win in November will turn the world wargame board up on its end and we may well all be debating how NATO is coming to an end and the threat of Putin and so on. We may all be focused on stuff we are not now.
I like wildcard bets.
He did look very stressed out in the press conference.
It's just not happening as his spreadsheet said it would.
Sunak's strategy:
1) Swing to right to secure core vote 2) Reform vote share increases 3) ?????? 4) "Stop the boats" to secure parliamentary party 5) Jenrick and Braverman resign 6) ??????
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
Free accommodation is a big plus. A Mon-Fri rent in Oxford would be about £500pcm.
It is an interesting house. A 3 storey converted 600 year old bakery. 2 rooms on each floor so small you couldn't swing a Manx cat. Stairs really steep with a rope bannister.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
There is, of course, the small point about actually *starting* in academia. If I were a professor I'd be pretty pissed off at the way in which recruitment was so brutally being amputated at the starting levels. And being a good professor means having good people all the way down the scale.
Indeed, appointing key lieutenants is an essential part of a successful professorial career.
I know precious little about medicine, thankfully, but as a faculty husband I've long since come to the conclusion that UK universities are a Ponzi scheme that would have imploded years ago if we hadn't been able to sell our initial investment to foreigners. I can't deny they are all very clever - in some cases cleverer than I - but I doubt if cooking up ever more ingenious social theories is a good use of their brains. The problem being that the doctrine of academic freedom means they can (and will) study anything and everything that interests them, regardless of utility.
I think there is a fundamental clash of ideas of what university is for.
Is it the utilitarian idea of preparing people for a life time of work?
Is it to push the boundaries of knowledge and ideas?
Is it to innovate and research?
Is it a social finishing school for those who wish to join the British middle classes?
Is it a product to sell to overseas students as an income earner for the country?
We really haven't decided, and these objectives do have quite fundamental clashes.
A university is all of those things. The tension is in the balance.
And they are living communities. To a certain extent they are what those who work there want them to be but also to an increasing extent what government or 'the market' tells them to be.
As an example, there was relatively little interest within universities (old skool not the polys) with working with industry until 1990s and in particular Mandelson ideas about knowledge economy.
I still think the conversion of poly's to uni's was one of the worst educational mistakes we've (well, "we") made.
Alongside never really valuing 'the trades' vs. 'the professions'. See also the way 'just' college qualifications are treated versus a 'proper' university one.
Seattle Times ($) - ‘Escape liberal hell’: Republicans really are fleeing WA
Danny Westneat - At first, the ads seemed like a pandemic-era curiosity, a niche political pitch playing on the red state, blue state divide.
“Escape liberal hell,” counseled one sales video from a Boise, Idaho, real estate agent. “Here are seven reasons conservatives flock to Idaho.” . . .
The idea that people would pick up and move solely for politics has seemed like a stretch. Moving for a job, schools, space, a rural lifestyle, yes. People relocate for all sorts of reasons — nearly 250,000 moved here from another U.S. state last year, with 258,000 going the other way, the Census Bureau says.
But now, there’s solid evidence that some people really are migrating over partisanship.
This past week, Idaho released a database of voters who have moved into that state, along with where they came from and what political party they signed up for when they got there. . . .
The political makeup of who has moved to Idaho is eye-opening. It is, as the Idaho Capital Sun news site called it, a “Republican fever dream.”
Of about 119,000 voters who relocated to Idaho in recent years, 65% signed up as Republican. That’s significantly higher than the partisan makeup of the state already, which is 58% GOP.
Only 12% of the newcomers registered as Democrats. About 21% picked “unaffiliated” and 2% chose a third party such as Libertarian.
The data explodes the myth that liberals, untethered due to remote work, might be moving to Idaho or other red states from San Francisco and Seattle and potentially turning the interior more purple. The exact opposite is happening — people are segregating into like-minded, polarized, geographical camps.
Sixty-two percent of Washingtonians who moved to Idaho registered as Republicans, the data shows. Only 12% were Democrats. Ours is a 60-40 blue state, roughly, so this means Republicans are preferentially sorting themselves out of Washington state at high rates. . . .
From Seattle, the data shows 34% who relocated to Idaho were GOPers. (Seattle tends to vote only about 10% Republican.) . . . .
It is a fever dream for Idaho Republicans to turn that state into a fortress against liberalism — an American redoubt, some of them call it.
But red migration like this to the interior is a nightmare for the Washington state GOP. Its own customers are fleeing.
You can now even choose your real estate agent by their politics. The company GOP Agent “is here to help you connect with a Real Estate Agent who shares your Republican ideals and values,” their website says.
“One of our realtors held an info session in Seattle (about moving to a red State), and had over 150 attendees,” according to the Conservative Move Facebook page. “The interest in moving to red states is not slowing down.”
I hope they warned them that Idaho has a state income tax. [Washington State does NOT.] Could be a sticker shock upon arrival.
There was an excellent Vox video a couple of years ago about how - in America - people are increasingly ghettoized. Democrats only know Democrats. Republicans only know Republicans.
And this is incredibly unhealthy. And, candidly, toxic for democracy. We need to know and understand why people have different views to us.
Even here inner cities are increasingly left liberal and rural areas conservative.
Suburbs and commuter towns do still have more of a mix of political views and thus determine elections too
The “rural areas conservative” rule which by and large applies in most of the country will be tested in the next election in a few areas, notably the Lib Dem targets in the SW.
Even there there are fewer LD rural target seats than in the 1990s.
Of the top 50 LD target seats most are in the Home counties or southern Remain seats.
This reflects Lib Dem blue wall thinking, which I think is potentially misplaced - overestimating their chances in the stockbroker belt and underestimating their chances in deep rural parts of the West. Certainly local election results (and a couple of by-elections) seem to bear this out.
Even in the local elections in May the Tories held councils in pro Brexit SW areas like Torbay the LDs won in 1997 while the LDs took control of lots of councils in Remain stockbroker belt Surrey and Oxfordshire where the Tories held seats in 1997.
And of course even in the by elections the LDs won a bigger majority in stockbroker belt Chesham and Amersham than say rural SW Tiverton and Honiton
I don’t expect them to return to 1997 levels but the point is this is a region the Tories have pretty much taken as read for nearly a decade now. Everyone knows about the trends in the blue wall but they’ve largely forgotten the blue hedgerow. Any gains there would have much greater shock factor than gains in Surrey.
Tiverton and Honiton and North Shropshire saw huge swings - 34 and 29%. I think the West will be an interesting region to watch,
In by elections on protest vote, in the local elections the LDs won no more councils in Devon than they did in Surrey.
On national swing indeed only 2 of the top 50 LD target seats are in Devon compared to 6 of the top 50 in Surrey. And no, Tory losses in Surrey would be far more of a shock than in Devon which has elected Liberal MPs on a regular basis as far back as Thorpe and beyond. True Blue Surrey would be demographically similar to the wealthy Teal seats traditionally Liberal which went Teal Independent in the Australian elections last year
You’re arguing against yourself there. “In the local elections the LDs won no more councils in Devon than they did in Surrey”: put another way, the LDs won as many councils in forgotten, recently written off Devon as in blue wall heartland where Tory MPs are quaking in their boots Surrey.
“True blue Surrey would be demographically similar to the wealthy Teal seats traditionally Liberal which went Teal Independent”: exactly, everyone has their eyes pinned on the blue wall. They saw what happened in Australia, and in the period after Brexit vote. They expect - rightly or wrongly - big LD advances there. They are ignoring the old Liberal heartland, and wider Wessex and Marches.
I expect a larger than national swing in the West, partly because it swung so far against the Lib Dems in 2015 and 2017.
The Yellow Wall!
No, That is Richmond Park, Kingston Upon Thames, Twickenham, Bath and West Oxford now
Two of which do actually have yellow walls as they’re build from oolitic limestone.
The political map of Macron support in France is an interesting analogue for areas of Lib Dem strength. Large swathes of rural Western France in areas that never industrialised. Plus the posher riverine suburbs of Paris and the limestone ridges of Eastern France (which tend to be the viticultural areas).
Vineyards are also an interesting divining rod for Lib Dem strength. The only areas they do well in councils in Kent for example are in the Eastern downs near Canterbury, and the high Weald around and South of Tunbridge Wells. Both clusters of vineyards. And in Essex they run Chelmsford which is the viticulture capital of the Crouch Valley.
And Spa Towns from Bath to Tunbridge Wells, Cheltenham to Harrogate
Is there something in the water?
Place generally still too posh to vote Labour but now too liberal for the post Brexit Conservatives
Does anyone have a list of Councils heavily dominated by Lib Dems?
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
There is, of course, the small point about actually *starting* in academia. If I were a professor I'd be pretty pissed off at the way in which recruitment was so brutally being amputated at the starting levels. And being a good professor means having good people all the way down the scale.
Indeed, appointing key lieutenants is an essential part of a successful professorial career.
I know precious little about medicine, thankfully, but as a faculty husband I've long since come to the conclusion that UK universities are a Ponzi scheme that would have imploded years ago if we hadn't been able to sell our initial investment to foreigners. I can't deny they are all very clever - in some cases cleverer than I - but I doubt if cooking up ever more ingenious social theories is a good use of their brains. The problem being that the doctrine of academic freedom means they can (and will) study anything and everything that interests them, regardless of utility.
I think there is a fundamental clash of ideas of what university is for.
Is it the utilitarian idea of preparing people for a life time of work?
Is it to push the boundaries of knowledge and ideas?
Is it to innovate and research?
Is it a social finishing school for those who wish to join the British middle classes?
Is it a product to sell to overseas students as an income earner for the country?
We really haven't decided, and these objectives do have quite fundamental clashes.
A university is all of those things. The tension is in the balance.
And they are living communities. To a certain extent they are what those who work there want them to be but also to an increasing extent what government or 'the market' tells them to be.
As an example, there was relatively little interest within universities (old skool not the polys) with working with industry until 1990s and in particular Mandelson ideas about knowledge economy.
That's not really fair.
There have been these things called "Sandwich Courses" since at least I think th e 1960s.
I did a fully integrated one, with sponsorship and 18 months of industrial placements, in the 1980s.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
There is, of course, the small point about actually *starting* in academia. If I were a professor I'd be pretty pissed off at the way in which recruitment was so brutally being amputated at the starting levels. And being a good professor means having good people all the way down the scale.
Indeed, appointing key lieutenants is an essential part of a successful professorial career.
I know precious little about medicine, thankfully, but as a faculty husband I've long since come to the conclusion that UK universities are a Ponzi scheme that would have imploded years ago if we hadn't been able to sell our initial investment to foreigners. I can't deny they are all very clever - in some cases cleverer than I - but I doubt if cooking up ever more ingenious social theories is a good use of their brains. The problem being that the doctrine of academic freedom means they can (and will) study anything and everything that interests them, regardless of utility.
I think there is a fundamental clash of ideas of what university is for.
Is it the utilitarian idea of preparing people for a life time of work?
Is it to push the boundaries of knowledge and ideas?
Is it to innovate and research?
Is it a social finishing school for those who wish to join the British middle classes?
Is it a product to sell to overseas students as an income earner for the country?
We really haven't decided, and these objectives do have quite fundamental clashes.
A university is all of those things. The tension is in the balance.
And they are living communities. To a certain extent they are what those who work there want them to be but also to an increasing extent what government or 'the market' tells them to be.
As an example, there was relatively little interest within universities (old skool not the polys) with working with industry until 1990s and in particular Mandelson ideas about knowledge economy.
I still think the conversion of poly's to uni's was one of the worst educational mistakes we've (well, "we") made.
Alongside never really valuing 'the trades' vs. 'the professions'. See also the way 'just' college qualifications are treated versus a 'proper' university one.
"conversion of poly's to uni's was one of the worst educational mistakes"
Yes. 100x this.
I worked in a post-1992 poly just after the change.
Huge mistake.
Good stuff with local industry and training and access for non-standard students like back-to-work mum and so on was being lost in the chase to be yet another research-led uni. Ridiculous attempts to make non-research profile people professors and set up teams of post-docs.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
And increasing the pressure on the poor bloody minimum wage workers in care and education.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
There is, of course, the small point about actually *starting* in academia. If I were a professor I'd be pretty pissed off at the way in which recruitment was so brutally being amputated at the starting levels. And being a good professor means having good people all the way down the scale.
Indeed, appointing key lieutenants is an essential part of a successful professorial career.
I know precious little about medicine, thankfully, but as a faculty husband I've long since come to the conclusion that UK universities are a Ponzi scheme that would have imploded years ago if we hadn't been able to sell our initial investment to foreigners. I can't deny they are all very clever - in some cases cleverer than I - but I doubt if cooking up ever more ingenious social theories is a good use of their brains. The problem being that the doctrine of academic freedom means they can (and will) study anything and everything that interests them, regardless of utility.
I think there is a fundamental clash of ideas of what university is for.
Is it the utilitarian idea of preparing people for a life time of work?
Is it to push the boundaries of knowledge and ideas?
Is it to innovate and research?
Is it a social finishing school for those who wish to join the British middle classes?
Is it a product to sell to overseas students as an income earner for the country?
We really haven't decided, and these objectives do have quite fundamental clashes.
A university is all of those things. The tension is in the balance.
And they are living communities. To a certain extent they are what those who work there want them to be but also to an increasing extent what government or 'the market' tells them to be.
As an example, there was relatively little interest within universities (old skool not the polys) with working with industry until 1990s and in particular Mandelson ideas about knowledge economy.
I still think the conversion of poly's to uni's was one of the worst educational mistakes we've (well, "we") made.
Alongside never really valuing 'the trades' vs. 'the professions'. See also the way 'just' college qualifications are treated versus a 'proper' university one.
That’s been the case since WWII, at the very least. The tripartite system for secondary education was only ever really bipartite.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
But the point about World Class Academics is that many of them could command huge salaries elsewhere, but they choose not to. Because they value other stuff. Not necessarily honourable stuff- they're not saints and the life of a JRF has huge privileges. They just don't show up in their bank accounts at the end of each month.
(The same is probably true for clergy- are vicars from abroad going to be chucked out as well?)
It's not all about the money. Conservatives used to understand this sort of thing, however reluctantly. That understanding has been fading for a while. Has it finally been snuffed out?
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
But the point about World Class Academics is that many of them could command huge salaries elsewhere, but they choose not to. Because they value other stuff. Not necessarily honourable stuff- they're not saints and the life of a JRF has huge privileges. They just don't show up in their bank accounts at the end of each month.
(The same is probably true for clergy- are vicars from abroad going to be chucked out as well?)
It's not all about the money. Conservatives used to understand this sort of thing, however reluctantly. That understanding has been fading for a while. Has it finally been snuffed out?
With any luck they’ll get a long period in opposition to relearn it.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
But the point about World Class Academics is that many of them could command huge salaries elsewhere, but they choose not to. Because they value other stuff. Not necessarily honourable stuff- they're not saints and the life of a JRF has huge privileges. They just don't show up in their bank accounts at the end of each month.
(The same is probably true for clergy- are vicars from abroad going to be chucked out as well?)
It's not all about the money. Conservatives used to understand this sort of thing, however reluctantly. That understanding has been fading for a while. Has it finally been snuffed out?
Looks increasingly like it has.
"But now I only hear Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar, Retreating"
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true, these posts will go to the 2nd best. The Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
But the point about World Class Academics is that many of them could command huge salaries elsewhere, but they choose not to. Because they value other stuff. Not necessarily honourable stuff- they're not saints and the life of a JRF has huge privileges. They just don't show up in their bank accounts at the end of each month.
(The same is probably true for clergy- are vicars from abroad going to be chucked out as well?)
It's not all about the money. Conservatives used to understand this sort of thing, however reluctantly. That understanding has been fading for a while. Has it finally been snuffed out?
Immigrant Vicars who don't earn more than £38k ie not Bishop quality or at least Arch Deacon or Dean quality would also not be admitted no.
The whole point of these measures is that jobs below £38k a year should be done primarily by British workers unless there is a severe shortage of skills in that area amongst the domestic population. That will in turn reduce downward pressure on the average British worker's wages and reduce demand for housing and public services
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true, these posts will go to the 2nd best. The Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
They won't be as they will still be able to attract world leading academics from outside the UK who they will pay far more than £38k a year for Professorships and Senior Fellowships.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true and that is because the Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
To make it explicit for those at the back. One of the things that makes Oxford and Cambridge attractive places to study and do research is the eclectic mix of clever people from around the world. This policy, if it ever happens, is going to make that mix less interesting. And that will put people we want to attract to this country off.
Let's be honest about the civil war in the Tory Party: it's mostly a class thing.
Really?
Braverman is a Cambridge and Sorbonne educated lawyer, Jenrick a Cambridge educated lawyer. Both went to fee paying schools.
Or are you saying the working class are on the other side, with Sunak?
Neither went to Eton or Harrow or even Winchester or Charterhouse like Rishi and Hunt.
There are a few exceptions like Boris or Jacob Rees Mogg and Damian Green but generally the One Nation Tory group went to major private schools and the great public schools or at least Oxbridge and the ERG and Conservative right went to state schools or minor public schools and are more likely to be non Oxbridge
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true, these posts will go to the 2nd best. The Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
They won't be as they will still be able to attract world leading academics from outside the UK who they will pay far more than £38k a year for Professorships and Senior Fellowships.
Goodness this is going around in circles. The bread and butter for these places is nurturing the best undergraduates from whom you cream off the best to become PhD students from whom you cream off the best to become fellows. The new fellows and to a lesser extent the PhD students are part of the process. They teach, they tutor, they mark in addition to the research they do.
Hundreds of the best ones from around the world gone. But hey we can appoint a couple of professors from overseas. Several of which wont want to come if the students, postgraduates and junior fellows are substandard.
Tory MP Rachel Maclean, one of several deputy chairs of the party, tells GB News the Rwanda vote *will* be a confidence issue. “Of course it's about confidence in the government and what it delivers."
Reading that, it would appear to me that Rwanda's statements on not agreeing to the scheme if it contravenes international law have come from No. 10. If you're Rwanda and you have concerns, why bite the hand that's writing you the cheques? You'd express them privately. Public statements indicate that Sunak has asked them to weigh in to prove to would-be rebel MPs that the Braverman/Jenrick proposals wouldn't work. Which (if true) is just exceedingly stupid.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true, these posts will go to the 2nd best. The Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
They won't be as they will still be able to attract world leading academics from outside the UK who they will pay far more than £38k a year for Professorships and Senior Fellowships.
Goodness this is going around in circles. The bread and butter for these places is nurturing the best undergraduates from whom you cream off the best to become PhD students from whom you cream off the best to become fellows. The new fellows and to a lesser extent the PhD students are part of the process. They teach, they tutor, they mark in addition to the research they do.
Hundreds of the best ones from around the world gone. But hey we can appoint a couple of professors from overseas. Several of which wont want to come if the students, postgraduates and junior fellows are substandard.
Well that was a if not the key point of Brexit and why Leave won the referendum and Boris led the Conservatives to victory in 2019.
British workers didn't want to have to compete with the rest of the world for paid jobs from plumbing to construction to academia to electricians to waiters and cooks to receptionists to lorry drivers to middle managers etc. They don't want any more downward pressure on their wages and they don't want to have to compete for housing either.
Yes we will still have top foreign Premiership footballers, bankers, Professors, actors etc here but no longer will the average worker in their field have to face as much competition from immigrant labour for jobs
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true, these posts will go to the 2nd best. The Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
They won't be as they will still be able to attract world leading academics from outside the UK who they will pay far more than £38k a year for Professorships and Senior Fellowships.
Goodness this is going around in circles. The bread and butter for these places is nurturing the best undergraduates from whom you cream off the best to become PhD students from whom you cream off the best to become fellows. The new fellows and to a lesser extent the PhD students are part of the process. They teach, they tutor, they mark in addition to the research they do.
Hundreds of the best ones from around the world gone. But hey we can appoint a couple of professors from overseas. Several of which wont want to come if the students, postgraduates and junior fellows are substandard.
Having spent a little time in that world... Outside of the true genius, pure maths lecturer at 25 etc etc Who is the best and who isn't in academia plays more than not to subjectivity. Are some people's research and potential better than others, for sure. But are some luckier in respect to picking the right advisor/institution/topic at the right time, also yes. I've known clearly brighter, more creative postgrads stumble in the race to become junior academics and others I'd consider less able, bound away. And in academe success tends to beget success.
So IMO is HYUFD being obtuse, more than likely. But there is a grain of truth in that supporting more of the UK's postgraduates in their early careers might not be as detrimental to research as you are making out.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true, these posts will go to the 2nd best. The Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
They won't be as they will still be able to attract world leading academics from outside the UK who they will pay far more than £38k a year for Professorships and Senior Fellowships.
Goodness this is going around in circles. The bread and butter for these places is nurturing the best undergraduates from whom you cream off the best to become PhD students from whom you cream off the best to become fellows. The new fellows and to a lesser extent the PhD students are part of the process. They teach, they tutor, they mark in addition to the research they do.
Hundreds of the best ones from around the world gone. But hey we can appoint a couple of professors from overseas. Several of which wont want to come if the students, postgraduates and junior fellows are substandard.
Well that was a if not the key point of Brexit and why Leave won the referendum and Boris led the Conservatives to victory in 2019.
British workers didn't want to have to compete with the rest of the world for paid jobs from plumbing to construction to academia to electricians to waiters and cooks to receptionists to lorry drivers to middle managers etc. They don't want any more downward pressure on their wages and they don't want to have to compete for housing either.
Yes we will still have top foreign Premiership footballers, bankers, Professors, actors etc here but no longer will the average worker in their field have to face as much competition from immigrant labour for jobs
Well they will. But they will be from India rather than Poland.
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true, these posts will go to the 2nd best. The Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
They won't be as they will still be able to attract world leading academics from outside the UK who they will pay far more than £38k a year for Professorships and Senior Fellowships.
Goodness this is going around in circles. The bread and butter for these places is nurturing the best undergraduates from whom you cream off the best to become PhD students from whom you cream off the best to become fellows. The new fellows and to a lesser extent the PhD students are part of the process. They teach, they tutor, they mark in addition to the research they do.
Hundreds of the best ones from around the world gone. But hey we can appoint a couple of professors from overseas. Several of which wont want to come if the students, postgraduates and junior fellows are substandard.
Well that was a if not the key point of Brexit and why Leave won the referendum and Boris led the Conservatives to victory in 2019.
British workers didn't want to have to compete with the rest of the world for paid jobs from plumbing to construction to academia to electricians to waiters and cooks to receptionists to lorry drivers to middle managers etc. They don't want any more downward pressure on their wages and they don't want to have to compete for housing either.
Yes we will still have top foreign Premiership footballers, bankers, Professors, actors etc here but no longer will the average worker in their field have to face as much competition from immigrant labour for jobs
Well they will. But they will be from India rather than Poland.
Only if they get a job paying over £38k a year now actually whether from India or Poland.
Otherwise unless they are in an area like social care they won't be able to get a visa to come and work here
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true, these posts will go to the 2nd best. The Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
They won't be as they will still be able to attract world leading academics from outside the UK who they will pay far more than £38k a year for Professorships and Senior Fellowships.
Goodness this is going around in circles. The bread and butter for these places is nurturing the best undergraduates from whom you cream off the best to become PhD students from whom you cream off the best to become fellows. The new fellows and to a lesser extent the PhD students are part of the process. They teach, they tutor, they mark in addition to the research they do.
Hundreds of the best ones from around the world gone. But hey we can appoint a couple of professors from overseas. Several of which wont want to come if the students, postgraduates and junior fellows are substandard.
Well that was a if not the key point of Brexit and why Leave won the referendum and Boris led the Conservatives to victory in 2019.
British workers didn't want to have to compete with the rest of the world for paid jobs from plumbing to construction to academia to electricians to waiters and cooks to receptionists to lorry drivers to middle managers etc. They don't want any more downward pressure on their wages and they don't want to have to compete for housing either.
Yes we will still have top foreign Premiership footballers, bankers, Professors, actors etc here but no longer will the average worker in their field have to face as much competition from immigrant labour for jobs
Didn’t British workers generally vote to remain? It was retired people that voted Brexit.
Let's be honest about the civil war in the Tory Party: it's mostly a class thing.
Really?
Braverman is a Cambridge and Sorbonne educated lawyer, Jenrick a Cambridge educated lawyer. Both went to fee paying schools.
Or are you saying the working class are on the other side, with Sunak?
The Tory Party seems destined to fight over anything.... its a light relief from Europe but immigration perhaps the bitterest issue in UK politics at present. I cant fathom why RS took to the podium yesterday, managing to pixx off a good chunk of his backbenchers and I suspect a fair few of his front bench. Surely his advisors (who are they?) could see this is a lose-lose. I cant see how this rather inexperienced thin skinned PM comes out of it.... California must surely be a calling
Absolutely compelling viewing – I can’t believe I’ve just watched all four sessions of Jarnail Singh’s “testimony” but it was worth every minute. What Jason Beer so skilfully brings out is the sheer laziness of Mr Singh and his persistent unwillingness to take any responsibility… which in turn appears to reflect Post Office culture generally. Also, “the progress I’ve made isn’t as swift as I’d hoped for one reason or another” (end of session 3) – how does Jason Beer keep such a poker face!"
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true, these posts will go to the 2nd best. The Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
They won't be as they will still be able to attract world leading academics from outside the UK who they will pay far more than £38k a year for Professorships and Senior Fellowships.
Goodness this is going around in circles. The bread and butter for these places is nurturing the best undergraduates from whom you cream off the best to become PhD students from whom you cream off the best to become fellows. The new fellows and to a lesser extent the PhD students are part of the process. They teach, they tutor, they mark in addition to the research they do.
Hundreds of the best ones from around the world gone. But hey we can appoint a couple of professors from overseas. Several of which wont want to come if the students, postgraduates and junior fellows are substandard.
Well that was a if not the key point of Brexit and why Leave won the referendum and Boris led the Conservatives to victory in 2019.
British workers didn't want to have to compete with the rest of the world for paid jobs from plumbing to construction to academia to electricians to waiters and cooks to receptionists to lorry drivers to middle managers etc. They don't want any more downward pressure on their wages and they don't want to have to compete for housing either.
Yes we will still have top foreign Premiership footballers, bankers, Professors, actors etc here but no longer will the average worker in their field have to face as much competition from immigrant labour for jobs
Didn’t British workers generally vote to remain? It was retired people that voted Brexit.
No Leave won non graduate workers and every age group over 45
You do know that Research Fellows are not the same as Professors, don't you?
Yes, they are less senior researchers than Professors.
Top academics, foreign or not will still be able to stay here.
Middle income and low income migrants who don't meet the salary threshold however will not be able to come here now unless in a shortage area like social care. Which is exactly what middle income and low income Brexit voters voted for when they won the referendum to reduce pressure on their wages and housing.
Plenty of room for more British Research Fellows now too to get those posts without the competition of Fellows imported from abroad
Universities - one of the last sectors where Britain still has world class institutions.
Tory Party - hold my beer.
If you are a foreigner and a world class academic you will earn more than the £38k a year you need to stay in the UK on any definition
I'm adding universities to the long list of things you have no clue about, then.
Nobody can be a 'world class academic' on any definition if they earn less than £38k a year, indeed to be a 'world class academic' most would be able to command 6 figure salaries at any university or college they wished to go to
Depends how you look at it.
Firstly, what is an academic?
If this class includes basic post-docs then the world class might apply as the recruitment net is world-wide (subject to visa etc).
I worked for years in universities and the PhD/Post-doc/ junior research fellow segment was often non-UK.
And will now be more UK with more posts for UK researchers.
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
My son's girlfriend is a new fellow at Peterhouse, Cambridge. She is an extraordinary chemist and was part of the winning Romanian Olympiad team. She is currently on secondment to the Max Planck Institute. Her salary is less than £30k, although she does get free accommodation.
And once she has reached £38k plus equivalent in Munich she can then get a full time job in the UK
Her job is at Peterhouse, Cambridge. Honestly! You need to read the post. New fellows get a lot less than £38k contrary to your post. You will lose all these great scientists. In her case not, as she has a British passport now, but lots of others will be lost. They do great work that benefits the UK. Poof, all gone.
You do know what secondment means?
No we won't, British post docs will take their places. Many British phd students find it very difficult to get academic research posts after completing their studies.
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
Yes that is true, these posts will go to the 2nd best. The Universities want the very best. That is why she got it and the others didn't. If you lose the best to Universities in other countries and give these posts to the 2nd best then our Universities will no longer be the leading Universities attracting the best talent. However if you want Oxford and Cambridge to become 2nd rate in 10 years time then go ahead.
They won't be as they will still be able to attract world leading academics from outside the UK who they will pay far more than £38k a year for Professorships and Senior Fellowships.
Goodness this is going around in circles. The bread and butter for these places is nurturing the best undergraduates from whom you cream off the best to become PhD students from whom you cream off the best to become fellows. The new fellows and to a lesser extent the PhD students are part of the process. They teach, they tutor, they mark in addition to the research they do.
Hundreds of the best ones from around the world gone. But hey we can appoint a couple of professors from overseas. Several of which wont want to come if the students, postgraduates and junior fellows are substandard.
Well that was a if not the key point of Brexit and why Leave won the referendum and Boris led the Conservatives to victory in 2019.
British workers didn't want to have to compete with the rest of the world for paid jobs from plumbing to construction to academia to electricians to waiters and cooks to receptionists to lorry drivers to middle managers etc. They don't want any more downward pressure on their wages and they don't want to have to compete for housing either.
Yes we will still have top foreign Premiership footballers, bankers, Professors, actors etc here but no longer will the average worker in their field have to face as much competition from immigrant labour for jobs
Didn’t British workers generally vote to remain? It was retired people that voted Brexit.
No Leave won non graduate workers and every age group over 45
Comments
British research fellowships for British post docs!
(By the time any academic of any nationality had world class global recognition they could easily command over £38k)
That's about £41 per expected Tory voter at GE 2024/5
Don't worry, we can trade for them.
sarcasm off
Within a couple of years there was an anaesthetic staffing crisis cancelling operating lists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5n0DLYbYqc
And they are living communities. To a certain extent they are what those who work there want them to be but also to an increasing extent what government or 'the market' tells them to be.
As an example, there was relatively little interest within universities (old skool not the polys) with working with industry until 1990s and in particular Mandelson ideas about knowledge economy.
Short-Term Rishi burning down something else to try and save his butt.
The French will love him !
I'm honestly not sure whether he believes that stuff, or if he is playing to what he thinks will appeal to the moron wing of the Tories.
The poor man at his gate,
The Lord made them high or lowly
And ordered their estate.
Example: Richmond.
Chaos everywhere for Sunak.
Yet - he strikes me as a bit of a Major type who will soldier on to the end "just in case something turns up".
Trump win in November will turn the world wargame board up on its end and we may well all be debating how NATO is coming to an end and the threat of Putin and so on. We may all be focused on stuff we are not now.
I like wildcard bets.
D'Oha.
You do know what secondment means?
"No, as they have already lost" says Peter Hitchens.
Made me laugh.
Tearing into Tory failure.
1) Swing to right to secure core vote
2) Reform vote share increases
3) ??????
4) "Stop the boats" to secure parliamentary party
5) Jenrick and Braverman resign
6) ??????
I almost feel sorry for him.
@mikegalsworthy
·
1h
George Monbiot absolutely shredding this govt and their sadistic, pure distraction, Rwanda policy.
Met that again this summer when having blood transfusions.
Apparently I am the blood group that means I can have transfusions from everyone, but can't give them to anyone.
Alongside never really valuing 'the trades' vs. 'the professions'. See also the way 'just' college qualifications are treated versus a 'proper' university one.
But LOL
https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:750/format:webp/0*oAPfXX6NmWvUJd6c.png
We have a byelection today in Sandridge and Wheathampstead.
https://medium.com/britainelects/previewing-the-five-council-by-elections-of-7th-december-2023-29b531881a34
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/07/uk-ee-vodafone-three-o2-face-3bn-class-action-lawsuit-over-loyalty-penalties
The whole point of these proposals is exactly what Brown promised over a decade ago ie more 'British jobs for British workers.'
Where there is a genuine shortage immigrants can still come regardless of salary and the most skilled and high paid immigrants who produce most value added can come too.
Numbers of immigrants outside that however will be cut, also reducing pressure on housing and on public services
There have been these things called "Sandwich Courses" since at least I think th e 1960s.
I did a fully integrated one, with sponsorship and 18 months of industrial placements, in the 1980s.
Yes. 100x this.
I worked in a post-1992 poly just after the change.
Huge mistake.
Good stuff with local industry and training and access for non-standard students like back-to-work mum and so on was being lost in the chase to be yet another research-led uni. Ridiculous attempts to make non-research profile people professors and set up teams of post-docs.
The tripartite system for secondary education was only ever really bipartite.
(The same is probably true for clergy- are vicars from abroad going to be chucked out as well?)
It's not all about the money. Conservatives used to understand this sort of thing, however reluctantly. That understanding has been fading for a while. Has it finally been snuffed out?
"But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
Retreating"
The whole point of these measures is that jobs below £38k a year should be done primarily by British workers unless there is a severe shortage of skills in that area amongst the domestic population. That will in turn reduce downward pressure on the average British worker's wages and reduce demand for housing and public services
Goodnight PB.
Starmer is an entryist? He's a trot who has joined a Stalin like communist party??
I am missing something...
Braverman is a Cambridge and Sorbonne educated lawyer, Jenrick a Cambridge educated lawyer. Both went to fee paying schools.
Or are you saying the working class are on the other side, with Sunak?
There are a few exceptions like Boris or Jacob Rees Mogg and Damian Green but generally the One Nation Tory group went to major private schools and the great public schools or at least Oxbridge and the ERG and Conservative right went to state schools or minor public schools and are more likely to be non Oxbridge
Hundreds of the best ones from around the world gone. But hey we can appoint a couple of professors from overseas. Several of which wont want to come if the students, postgraduates and junior fellows are substandard.
British workers didn't want to have to compete with the rest of the world for paid jobs from plumbing to construction to academia to electricians to waiters and cooks to receptionists to lorry drivers to middle managers etc. They don't want any more downward pressure on their wages and they don't want to have to compete for housing either.
Yes we will still have top foreign Premiership footballers, bankers, Professors, actors etc here but no longer will the average worker in their field have to face as much competition from immigrant labour for jobs
So IMO is HYUFD being obtuse, more than likely. But there is a grain of truth in that supporting more of the UK's postgraduates in their early careers might not be as detrimental to research as you are making out.
Otherwise unless they are in an area like social care they won't be able to get a visa to come and work here
December 3, 2023 at 12:19 pm
Absolutely compelling viewing – I can’t believe I’ve just watched all four sessions of Jarnail Singh’s “testimony” but it was worth every minute. What Jason Beer so skilfully brings out is the sheer laziness of Mr Singh and his persistent unwillingness to take any responsibility… which in turn appears to reflect Post Office culture generally. Also, “the progress I’ve made isn’t as swift as I’d hoped for one reason or another” (end of session 3) – how does Jason Beer keep such a poker face!"
https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/more-singhd-against-than-singh-ing
https://x.com/ehunterchristie/status/1732858719082303699
“We're on the verge of being check-mated by just one man, namely Vladimir Putin.”