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You can’t handle the truth – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited December 2023 in General
You can’t handle the truth – politicalbetting.com

With Boris Johnson to appear before the Covid Inquiry tomorrow, 71% of Britons say they do not consider him trustworthy when it comes to what happened during the pandemicOnly 16% consider him generally trustworthyhttps://t.co/6A6hvC6WIs pic.twitter.com/fCYEGSNQMg

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    First
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    edited December 2023
    16% of the population being very gullible seems plausible tbh.

    Those people are to be sympathised with rather than pilloried,; they generally can't help it, and they struggle in today's complex technology society.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    People didn't vote for Boris as he was honest and trustworthy, otherwise they would have stuck with May
  • HYUFD said:

    People didn't vote for Boris as he was honest and trustworthy, otherwise they would have stuck with May

    So the MPs voted for a liar?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,059
    That 16% did fall for scammers. They voted for Brexit.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Don't the police have a whole department dedicated to the Nigeria 419 scam letters.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    Ugh. Bangkok traffic
  • Presumably the 16% contain quite a few suffering from a sunk-cost dilemma. Having trusted him on Brexit and plenty else, to admit he was (and is) wrong now would mean having to admit they were duped - or worse, actually wrong by themselves - which is something they're not yet prepared to do. So they stick with their alternative reality because it's more comforting.

    Of course, there are others within it who are genuinely dupes, idiots and emotionally-aligned malevolents.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Leon said:

    Ugh. Bangkok traffic

    Ugh. The sun rises in the East.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    I try not to be condescending but are 16% of the country gullible idiots?

    Yes, and most of them seem to be Tory voters.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    FPT@cyclefree. Mass rape is a terror tactic, which goes beyond men seeing the women of the enemy as one of the spoils of war. It’s really a form of torture.
  • HYUFD said:

    People didn't vote for Boris as he was honest and trustworthy, otherwise they would have stuck with May

    So the MPs voted for a liar?
    The MPs voted for someone they thought (rightly, as it turned out) could win an election. They were prepared to accept a fraud and a cad as the price necessary to save their party and keep Corbyn out. Which doesn't say much for the alternatives or for the mess they'd got themselves into.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    edited December 2023
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Ugh. Bangkok traffic

    Ugh. The sun rises in the East.
    I’ve avoided it entirely for ten days. But I’ve made the idiotic decision to try a new hotel for a change. What was I thinking?? I know it’s like this

    Never again
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,954
    Leon said:

    Ugh. Bangkok traffic

    :(


  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    Are the 16% gullible, or are they cynical? They might argue that you can trust Boris Johnson to say whatever he thinks is most helpful to him at any one moment, regardless of any relation that has to the truth or anything he has said in the past.

    That's a bit more consistent than with normal people, where it's a bit harder to work out at any one particular time that they might be fibbing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    Oh Joy


  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    I'd never call Johnson 'generally trustworthy'. But neither would I call him 'generally untrustworthy'.

    I'd also not blindly 'trust' anyone else giving evidence to this inquiry. This whole thing is turning into a massive CYA exercise where many try to shift blame onto others. Good on the few people who do actually admit they made mistakes...
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    edited December 2023

    I'd never call Johnson 'generally trustworthy'. But neither would I call him 'generally untrustworthy'.

    I'd also not blindly 'trust' anyone else giving evidence to this inquiry. This whole thing is turning into a massive CYA exercise where many try to shift blame onto others. Good on the few people who do actually admit they made mistakes...

    Johnson has an entire adulthood (at least) of proving himself generally untrustworthy, from his journalism to his private life to his attitude to parliament to his (and his staff) abiding by his own regulations.

    Johnson has and will always say whatever he thinks will get the approval of the audience in front of him. If this proves to be unreliable, he will then later deny, accuse or - if absolutely necessary - attempt a puppy-dog apology.

    His only reliability is in the Errol Flynn sense.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    I have made a disastrous hotel move
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832

    A friend who reads PB has informed me he is suing me for the injury he received when he fell off his chair when reading I wrote ‘ I try not to be condescending’.

    Sunak is of course the present master of Con descending.

    Truss is still the best ever practitioner of Con rapidly descending.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    Nigelb said:

    I try not to be condescending but are 16% of the country gullible idiots?

    Yes, and most of them seem to be Tory voters.

    Which raises the question of how you explain the rest of the current Tory vote, beyond the gullible idiots.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    Help
  • Fishing said:

    Contrasting Johnson and Starmer shows the difference between two types of trustworthiness. Boris is clearly not trustworthy personally. Only a fool would believe him on day-to-day matters. He says what he thinks his audience wants to hear.

    On the other hand, he was broadly true to his pro-Brexit, big government Conservatism throughout his time in office. I don't agree with much of it, but he delivered what broadly what he said he would do when elected, as far as he could given the pandemic. The main exception was raising national insurance, which he did in order to try to meet another pledge on care homes.

    On the other hand, Starmer, though doubtless honourable in personal matters, is completely inconsistent, obfuscates when you try and pin him down and has had so many different political positions, from campaigning for Jeremy Corbyn and running a Trotskyite rag to praising Margaret Thatcher the other day, that there is absolutely no telling what he would do.

    Not an appetising choice.

    Johnson was so consistent about Brexit he didn't know which side he would back at the beginning of 2016. He also shafted the N Ireland Unionists as soon as they became inconvenient. He has few set political principles, and none which do not personally benefit him.
  • I'd never call Johnson 'generally trustworthy'. But neither would I call him 'generally untrustworthy'.

    I'd also not blindly 'trust' anyone else giving evidence to this inquiry. This whole thing is turning into a massive CYA exercise where many try to shift blame onto others. Good on the few people who do actually admit they made mistakes...

    If you don't consider Johnson "generally untrustworthy" you've really not been paying attention. He's probably the most untrustworthy person in public life for the last several decades.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,076
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    I try not to be condescending but are 16% of the country gullible idiots?

    Yes, and most of them seem to be Tory voters.

    Which raises the question of how you explain the rest of the current Tory vote, beyond the gullible idiots.
    Simple: people who don't trust Labour.

    My view is that the Tory vote is almost entirely dependent on how scary people find Labour. Clearly Starmer is much less scary than Corbyn, but not entirely lacking in scariness.
  • Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    I try not to be condescending but are 16% of the country gullible idiots?

    Yes, and most of them seem to be Tory voters.

    Which raises the question of how you explain the rest of the current Tory vote, beyond the gullible idiots.
    Simple: people who don't trust Labour.

    My view is that the Tory vote is almost entirely dependent on how scary people find Labour. Clearly Starmer is much less scary than Corbyn, but not entirely lacking in scariness.
    If the Labour party didn't scare some people it wouldn't be doing its job.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    'This foreign A++ lister is tanking in the polls. Don’t be surprised if he steps down after the holidays. He will say it is to spend more time with his family.'
    https://www.crazydaysandnights.net/2023/12/blind-item-4_5.html
  • Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    I try not to be condescending but are 16% of the country gullible idiots?

    Yes, and most of them seem to be Tory voters.

    Which raises the question of how you explain the rest of the current Tory vote, beyond the gullible idiots.
    Simple: people who don't trust Labour.

    My view is that the Tory vote is almost entirely dependent on how scary people find Labour. Clearly Starmer is much less scary than Corbyn, but not entirely lacking in scariness.
    Also, (1) values, (2) habit, (3) not wanting Labour to have too big a majority. In a few cases, also (4) local MP.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    Leon said:

    Help

    Happened to me in Korea when we ended up in a seriously dodgy hotel about 30 miles from where we thought it should be.
    Spent the evening finding a last minute AirBnb place, and ended up staying in a traditional hanok house (which we otherwise wouldn't have done).
    Surely you can do something similar ?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    I try not to be condescending but are 16% of the country gullible idiots?

    Yes, and most of them seem to be Tory voters.

    Which raises the question of how you explain the rest of the current Tory vote, beyond the gullible idiots.
    Simple: people who don't trust Labour.

    My view is that the Tory vote is almost entirely dependent on how scary people find Labour. Clearly Starmer is much less scary than Corbyn, but not entirely lacking in scariness.
    Starmer is a void. He's hoping that people will project their hopes onto him, but some will inevitably project their fears instead.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    Interesting list of books. Might order Beijing Rules.
    https://www.diplomaticourier.com/posts/13-best-reads-2023
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Help

    Happened to me in Korea when we ended up in a seriously dodgy hotel about 30 miles from where we thought it should be.
    Spent the evening finding a last minute AirBnb place, and ended up staying in a traditional hanok house (which we otherwise wouldn't have done).
    Surely you can do something similar ?
    Aren't there two "Mandarin" hotels in Bangkok, one of them manifestly not "the" Mandarin Oriental. Is that Bangkok? I made that mistake once.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,904
    Good morning everyone.

    It will be interesting to see what my MP Lee Anderson says on the Boris COVID Sessions. He was defending him just before he was defenestrated.

    Meanwhile, more dogs and bollards.

    https://twitter.com/WorldBollard/status/1731800303782023632
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    edited December 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Help

    Happened to me in Korea when we ended up in a seriously dodgy hotel about 30 miles from where we thought it should be.
    Spent the evening finding a last minute AirBnb place, and ended up staying in a traditional hanok house (which we otherwise wouldn't have done).
    Surely you can do something similar ?
    I’ve already moved out and am hunting an alternative

    UGH


    An expensive error but fuck it. I’d have killed myself in there. A friend swore to me it was a good choice - “a lovely apartment” - yeah, maybe, if you’re comparing it to a HAMAS HOSTAGE TUNNEL

    I might leave that as a review
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    Korea could disappear from map if it doesn't welcome more immigrants: justice minister
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=364581
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,920

    HYUFD said:

    People didn't vote for Boris as he was honest and trustworthy, otherwise they would have stuck with May

    So the MPs voted for a liar?
    The MPs voted for someone they thought (rightly, as it turned out) could win an election. They were prepared to accept a fraud and a cad as the price necessary to save their party and keep Corbyn out. Which doesn't say much for the alternatives or for the mess they'd got themselves into.
    In other words, they voted for somebody who would "win the election" for them on the basis of lies. And so we ended up with a government we could really trust..... or not so much.. Thank you, Tories.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,670
    edited December 2023
    HYUFD said:

    People didn't vote for Boris as he was honest and trustworthy, otherwise they would have stuck with May

    My sense is that isn't entirely correct.

    Sure, they didn't vote on the basis of "honest and trustworthy" but there were far more people who thought he was back then.

    Sadly, the YouGov tracking poll (https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/is-boris-johnson-trustworthy) only goes from 2019-2022; but he starts out with 36% there, which falls calamitously to 11% in August 2022.

    I think the view of many was that he was essentially a jovial, competent leader (even 40%+ of Labour voters thought he was a competent mayor of London); there was a solid body of 40-50% who never trusted him, but it is the "trust" number we are looking at.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,002
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Help

    Happened to me in Korea when we ended up in a seriously dodgy hotel about 30 miles from where we thought it should be.
    Spent the evening finding a last minute AirBnb place, and ended up staying in a traditional hanok house (which we otherwise wouldn't have done).
    Surely you can do something similar ?
    Aren't there two "Mandarin" hotels in Bangkok, one of them manifestly not "the" Mandarin Oriental. Is that Bangkok? I made that mistake once.
    I’ve made that mistake in Singapore, think it was the Singapore Intercontinental Hotel, which definitely wasn’t the Intercontinental Singapore.

    International chains are surprisingly bad at aggressively defending their IP in Asian countries, as they would in Europe or the US.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Anyway, in a couple of hours I am doing - with others - a webinar on "Investigations: What Can Go Wrong and How to Fix This". We have an hour. Will it be enough time?

    So must stop hanging round here and get ready.
  • Dealing with 31/01/24 Brexit changes. Whilst I'm reasonably confident the manufacturer in question has it wrong, how have the government managed to get us into this absurd mess?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    Found a beautiful five star in a perfect location that’s been open a week and is therefore selling rooms half price

    DUHHHHHH
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited December 2023

    Dealing with 31/01/24 Brexit changes. Whilst I'm reasonably confident the manufacturer in question has it wrong, how have the government managed to get us into this absurd mess?

    Wait till you get to the contract where you were acting as a middleman for your non EU parent company within the EU shipping from EU country A to EU country B for a 1% administration fee and the contract concluded post VAT changes.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,854
    HYUFD said:

    'This foreign A++ lister is tanking in the polls. Don’t be surprised if he steps down after the holidays. He will say it is to spend more time with his family.'
    https://www.crazydaysandnights.net/2023/12/blind-item-4_5.html

    Trudeau also fits this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,893
    edited December 2023
    carnforth said:

    HYUFD said:

    'This foreign A++ lister is tanking in the polls. Don’t be surprised if he steps down after the holidays. He will say it is to spend more time with his family.'
    https://www.crazydaysandnights.net/2023/12/blind-item-4_5.html

    Trudeau also fits this.
    Yes, I think it is more likely to be Trudeau (he has been Canadian PM for 8 years now after all while Rishi has only been UK PM for a year). His Finance Minister, Chrystia Freeland, would be likely successor.

    If you believe Crazy Days and Nights of course
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Leon, but do they have splendid chocolate cake as a dessert in the restaurant?
  • ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    People didn't vote for Boris as he was honest and trustworthy, otherwise they would have stuck with May

    So the MPs voted for a liar?
    The MPs voted for someone they thought (rightly, as it turned out) could win an election. They were prepared to accept a fraud and a cad as the price necessary to save their party and keep Corbyn out. Which doesn't say much for the alternatives or for the mess they'd got themselves into.
    In other words, they voted for somebody who would "win the election" for them on the basis of lies. And so we ended up with a government we could really trust..... or not so much.. Thank you, Tories.
    Indeed. Also, thank you Labour and Lib Dems for not providing an alternative.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Leon said:

    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



    Bit of an early days W vibe going on.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2023
    HYUFD said:

    People didn't vote for Boris as he was honest and trustworthy, otherwise they would have stuck with May

    Exactly

    I suppose we are to trust Sir Keir, who was happy for us to be locked down for longer on the back of the non existent ‘Johnson Variant’, the deaths from which he hoped to associate the PM with. How disappointed he must have been when we opened up and there wasn’t a surge of covid deaths .

    Mind you, he didn’t think the virus enough of a threat not to have a piss up with friends indoors if a technicality could get him off the hook. Whilst the rest of us were locked up



  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,002
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, in a couple of hours I am doing - with others - a webinar on "Investigations: What Can Go Wrong and How to Fix This". We have an hour. Will it be enough time?

    So must stop hanging round here and get ready.

    Good luck with your webinar. I have another meeting this afternoon, otherwise might have signed up!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    HYUFD said:

    carnforth said:

    HYUFD said:

    'This foreign A++ lister is tanking in the polls. Don’t be surprised if he steps down after the holidays. He will say it is to spend more time with his family.'
    https://www.crazydaysandnights.net/2023/12/blind-item-4_5.html

    Trudeau also fits this.
    Yes, I think it is more likely to be Trudeau (he has been Canadian PM for 8 years now after all while Rishi has only been UK PM for a year). His Finance Minister, Chrystia Freeland, would be likely successor.

    If you believe Crazy Days and Nights of course
    Rishi isn't A++ anyway.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



    Bit of an early days W vibe going on.
    Sadly not anything as good as a W

    The rooms have a posh premier inn vibe; they spent all the money on the marble lobby

    No way it’s a five star and if they try to charge 5 star Bangkok prices it will go bust

    It is, nonetheless, 1200% better than the Airbnb Hamas Hostage Tunnel

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193
    Leon said:

    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



    Looks grim.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,773
    Leon said:

    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



    Very constrained reception area for tomorrow morning's walk of shame with Ting Tong.
  • I got this ad from booking.com the other day. I feel I would not be entirely worry-free.

  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,226
    mwadams said:

    HYUFD said:

    People didn't vote for Boris as he was honest and trustworthy, otherwise they would have stuck with May

    My sense is that isn't entirely correct.

    Sure, they didn't vote on the basis of "honest and trustworthy" but there were far more people who thought he was back then.

    Sadly, the YouGov tracking poll (https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/is-boris-johnson-trustworthy) only goes from 2019-2022; but he starts out with 36% there, which falls calamitously to 11% in August 2022.

    I think the view of many was that he was essentially a jovial, competent leader (even 40%+ of Labour voters thought he was a competent mayor of London); there was a solid body of 40-50% who never trusted him, but it is the "trust" number we are looking at.
    I think there were a lot of people (I'm one of them), who thought they'd trust him about as far as they could throw him however 1)this is true of most politicans, and 2)our interests (e.g. Brexit) at least temporarily aligned. So we voted for him.

    I thought he was a lying toad when I voted for him - I still think he's a lying toad now. But I also think he was a better over covid than KS would have been - not because Boris was particularly good, but because KS's instincts were all wrong; he always wanted more and harder lockdowns - all the available evidence suggests if anything we had too much.
  • Am also engaged with legal faff over a web store. This is the third such webstore I have created. With policies etc taken as legally approved boilerplate and then legally approved with amendments by previous clients.

    This client decided after a few months that another legal review was needed. Not that there is anything wrong with the current policies which requires the store to be taken off-line. So an invitation to their lawyers to come up with the same thing in a format they are happy with.

    New lawyers understand gift week and produce reams of unnecessary additions which need to be taken off one by one. Now there are "we must do x to comply with remote selling laws" despite already having a clear "no quibbles refund" policy posted and in effect.

    Group legal and contracted lawyers now arguing with each other about various clauses. The bill keeps increasing. And now they are asking me to referee!

    Can I refer you back to the start where the existing policies are already legally compliant? No wonder TSE can afford such outrageous shoes... :D
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2023
    It is quite astonishing that Boris was brought down because he let other people have a drink after work, but that work (running the country) didn’t have a loophole that allowed it, whilst Sir Keir did exactly the same and was let off, with no one considering him dodgy, for doing exactly the same thing, but after doing a job that a loophole did allow staff to drink inside afterwards.

    All while we were meant to be terrified of socialising near family and friends, and reprimanded as being thoughtless and selfish, because the virus was so contagious and deadly
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



    Looks grim.
    It’s freaking weird is what it is. Utterly deserted. A whole spa complex and fitness room and business centre and everything - and I walk alone

    I feel like an orientalised Patrick McGoohan
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,904
    Cyclefree said:

    I have said often enough - because it is true - that conflicts of interest are at the heart of most scandals. Yesterday's evidence at the Post Office Inquiry provides yet another example. Two in fact.

    The investigators were given bonuses based on how much money they recovered from subpostmasters. So of course they had no incentive to find out the cause of the discrepancies and every incentive to pursue them for money. No wonder they did no proper investigations.

    Added to that the Post Office had to pay money to Fujitsu to get the necessary information to find out what was happening so they had an extra incentive not to to investigate and not to disclose.

    Christ knows who signed off on such an egregiously bad policy. The senior lawyers probably. I have no polite words for those responsible, whoever they are.

    The Minister?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



    Very constrained reception area for tomorrow morning's walk of shame with Ting Tong.
    Short time, my friend, short time

    Also no one in Thailand is called “ting tong” - it means “crazy”

    “You ting tong farang!” Etc
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,452
    edited December 2023
    Leon thinks he's got problems? Our neighbours have nearly gone under.
    We're at the highest point of the island, but the river is about 2 inches below our patio. Our Shack is on 2 foot pillars, so we should be OK....

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



    Very constrained reception area for tomorrow morning's walk of shame with Ting Tong.
    Are those kind of racial stereotypes are ok to fling about now? Or do you have to have a PB Jeremy Clarkson style ‘edgy pass’?
  • MattW said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I have said often enough - because it is true - that conflicts of interest are at the heart of most scandals. Yesterday's evidence at the Post Office Inquiry provides yet another example. Two in fact.

    The investigators were given bonuses based on how much money they recovered from subpostmasters. So of course they had no incentive to find out the cause of the discrepancies and every incentive to pursue them for money. No wonder they did no proper investigations.

    Added to that the Post Office had to pay money to Fujitsu to get the necessary information to find out what was happening so they had an extra incentive not to to investigate and not to disclose.

    Christ knows who signed off on such an egregiously bad policy. The senior lawyers probably. I have no polite words for those responsible, whoever they are.

    The Minister?
    Kemi Badenoch would be the latest of a long and undistinguished bunch.

    Still, at least she didn't appoint Paula Vennels. That privilege went to Vince Cable.
  • isam said:

    It is quite astonishing that Boris was brought down because he let other people have a drink after work, but that work (running the country) didn’t have a loophole that allowed it, whilst Sir Keir did exactly the same and was let off, with no one considering him dodgy, for doing exactly the same thing, but after doing a job that a loophole did allow staff to drink inside afterwards.

    All while we were meant to be terrified of socialising near family and friends, and reprimanded as being thoughtless and selfish, because the virus was so contagious and deadly

    He wasn’t brought down over a drink.

    He was brought down over lying about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority and then getting cabinet ministers to repeat that lie.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,670
    theProle said:

    mwadams said:

    HYUFD said:

    People didn't vote for Boris as he was honest and trustworthy, otherwise they would have stuck with May

    My sense is that isn't entirely correct.

    Sure, they didn't vote on the basis of "honest and trustworthy" but there were far more people who thought he was back then.

    Sadly, the YouGov tracking poll (https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/is-boris-johnson-trustworthy) only goes from 2019-2022; but he starts out with 36% there, which falls calamitously to 11% in August 2022.

    I think the view of many was that he was essentially a jovial, competent leader (even 40%+ of Labour voters thought he was a competent mayor of London); there was a solid body of 40-50% who never trusted him, but it is the "trust" number we are looking at.
    I think there were a lot of people (I'm one of them), who thought they'd trust him about as far as they could throw him however 1)this is true of most politicans, and 2)our interests (e.g. Brexit) at least temporarily aligned. So we voted for him.

    I thought he was a lying toad when I voted for him - I still think he's a lying toad now. But I also think he was a better over covid than KS would have been - not because Boris was particularly good, but because KS's instincts were all wrong; he always wanted more and harder lockdowns - all the available evidence suggests if anything we had too much.
    Yes- 40-50% of people fell into that category, including many that voted for him! (I was in the lying toad/didn't vote for him category myself.)
  • But it is easy on the eye.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,002
    theProle said:

    mwadams said:

    HYUFD said:

    People didn't vote for Boris as he was honest and trustworthy, otherwise they would have stuck with May

    My sense is that isn't entirely correct.

    Sure, they didn't vote on the basis of "honest and trustworthy" but there were far more people who thought he was back then.

    Sadly, the YouGov tracking poll (https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/is-boris-johnson-trustworthy) only goes from 2019-2022; but he starts out with 36% there, which falls calamitously to 11% in August 2022.

    I think the view of many was that he was essentially a jovial, competent leader (even 40%+ of Labour voters thought he was a competent mayor of London); there was a solid body of 40-50% who never trusted him, but it is the "trust" number we are looking at.
    I think there were a lot of people (I'm one of them), who thought they'd trust him about as far as they could throw him however 1)this is true of most politicans, and 2)our interests (e.g. Brexit) at least temporarily aligned. So we voted for him.

    I thought he was a lying toad when I voted for him - I still think he's a lying toad now. But I also think he was a better over covid than KS would have been - not because Boris was particularly good, but because KS's instincts were all wrong; he always wanted more and harder lockdowns - all the available evidence suggests if anything we had too much.
    There’s also the context of when Johnson was elected, as the majority of MPs in Parliament were trying to undermine the referendum and blantantly lying about it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,133

    Fishing said:

    Contrasting Johnson and Starmer shows the difference between two types of trustworthiness. Boris is clearly not trustworthy personally. Only a fool would believe him on day-to-day matters. He says what he thinks his audience wants to hear.

    On the other hand, he was broadly true to his pro-Brexit, big government Conservatism throughout his time in office. I don't agree with much of it, but he delivered what broadly what he said he would do when elected, as far as he could given the pandemic. The main exception was raising national insurance, which he did in order to try to meet another pledge on care homes.

    On the other hand, Starmer, though doubtless honourable in personal matters, is completely inconsistent, obfuscates when you try and pin him down and has had so many different political positions, from campaigning for Jeremy Corbyn and running a Trotskyite rag to praising Margaret Thatcher the other day, that there is absolutely no telling what he would do.

    Not an appetising choice.

    Johnson was so consistent about Brexit he didn't know which side he would back at the beginning of 2016.
    There's nothing inconsistent in not having made your mind up yet. I think he was still weighing the options then. The important thing was that once he decided, he stuck to his guns, unlike, say, Starmer, whose position is still completely baffling and has gone through at least four phases, from being an ardent Remainer and describing the result as catastrophic to sort-of but not really proposing a second referendum under Corbyn and supporting free movement to then abandoning free movement to saying he accepts it but wants to rewrite it. Of course, we all know the truth - he would love to reverse it but desperately needs the votes of the 52%, and he is so slippery he won't admit that.


    He also shafted the N Ireland Unionists as soon as they became inconvenient.

    He did it when they were inconsistent with his main goal, and that on which he had been elected, to deliver Brexit. In the real world, when two goals conflict, you have to choose one or the other, as in care homes vs NI increase. That's not being inconsistent, that's just governing.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 718
    Leon said:

    I have made a disastrous hotel move

    Did you slide up to the sexiest girl at the bar...use your best patter....and she says 'you can call me Dave'.

    We have all done it.....
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    It is quite astonishing that Boris was brought down because he let other people have a drink after work, but that work (running the country) didn’t have a loophole that allowed it, whilst Sir Keir did exactly the same and was let off, with no one considering him dodgy, for doing exactly the same thing, but after doing a job that a loophole did allow staff to drink inside afterwards.

    All while we were meant to be terrified of socialising near family and friends, and reprimanded as being thoughtless and selfish, because the virus was so contagious and deadly

    He wasn’t brought down over a drink.

    He was brought down over lying about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority and then getting cabinet ministers to repeat that lie.
    That wouldn’t have brought him down without partygate
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    But it is easy on the eye.

    Where is this
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    It is quite astonishing that Boris was brought down because he let other people have a drink after work, but that work (running the country) didn’t have a loophole that allowed it, whilst Sir Keir did exactly the same and was let off, with no one considering him dodgy, for doing exactly the same thing, but after doing a job that a loophole did allow staff to drink inside afterwards.

    All while we were meant to be terrified of socialising near family and friends, and reprimanded as being thoughtless and selfish, because the virus was so contagious and deadly

    He wasn’t brought down over a drink.

    He was brought down over lying about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority and then getting cabinet ministers to repeat that lie.
    That wouldn’t have brought him down without partygate
    He survived the vote on Partygate.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599
    It’s just got a lovely buzzy welcoming vibe




  • Pulpstar said:

    But it is easy on the eye.

    Where is this
    Just outside Loughborough.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,599

    But it is easy on the eye.

    Weirdly, that is strikingly reminiscent of my new hotel pool. Which is about the nicest bit of this otherwise mega-sterile hotel


  • .
    Leon said:

    It’s just got a lovely buzzy welcoming vibe




    New batteries in the rabbit?
  • Leon said:

    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



    Perhaps an elaborate harvesting operation? You’ll be de-organed, made into tasty snacks & your bumhole out for hire afore you know it (probably not in that order).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    It is quite astonishing that Boris was brought down because he let other people have a drink after work, but that work (running the country) didn’t have a loophole that allowed it, whilst Sir Keir did exactly the same and was let off, with no one considering him dodgy, for doing exactly the same thing, but after doing a job that a loophole did allow staff to drink inside afterwards.

    All while we were meant to be terrified of socialising near family and friends, and reprimanded as being thoughtless and selfish, because the virus was so contagious and deadly

    He wasn’t brought down over a drink.

    He was brought down over lying about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority and then getting cabinet ministers to repeat that lie.
    That wouldn’t have brought him down without partygate
    He survived the vote on Partygate.
    He sure did but had it not happened, he wouldn’t have been brought down by Pincher gate
  • isam said:

    It is quite astonishing that Boris was brought down because he let other people have a drink after work, but that work (running the country) didn’t have a loophole that allowed it, whilst Sir Keir did exactly the same and was let off, with no one considering him dodgy, for doing exactly the same thing, but after doing a job that a loophole did allow staff to drink inside afterwards.

    All while we were meant to be terrified of socialising near family and friends, and reprimanded as being thoughtless and selfish, because the virus was so contagious and deadly

    He lost his job mostly because he blatantly and repeatedly lied taking everyone for fools and expecting us to ignore it because he is Boris, World King.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,710
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Contrasting Johnson and Starmer shows the difference between two types of trustworthiness. Boris is clearly not trustworthy personally. Only a fool would believe him on day-to-day matters. He says what he thinks his audience wants to hear.

    On the other hand, he was broadly true to his pro-Brexit, big government Conservatism throughout his time in office. I don't agree with much of it, but he delivered what broadly what he said he would do when elected, as far as he could given the pandemic. The main exception was raising national insurance, which he did in order to try to meet another pledge on care homes.

    On the other hand, Starmer, though doubtless honourable in personal matters, is completely inconsistent, obfuscates when you try and pin him down and has had so many different political positions, from campaigning for Jeremy Corbyn and running a Trotskyite rag to praising Margaret Thatcher the other day, that there is absolutely no telling what he would do.

    Not an appetising choice.

    Johnson was so consistent about Brexit he didn't know which side he would back at the beginning of 2016.
    There's nothing inconsistent in not having made your mind up yet. I think he was still weighing the options then. The important thing was that once he decided, he stuck to his guns, unlike, say, Starmer, whose position is still completely baffling and has gone through at least four phases, from being an ardent Remainer and describing the result as catastrophic to sort-of but not really proposing a second referendum under Corbyn and supporting free movement to then abandoning free movement to saying he accepts it but wants to rewrite it. Of course, we all know the truth - he would love to reverse it but desperately needs the votes of the 52%, and he is so slippery he won't admit that.


    He also shafted the N Ireland Unionists as soon as they became inconvenient.

    He did it when they were inconsistent with his main goal, and that on which he had been elected, to deliver Brexit. In the real world, when two goals conflict, you have to choose one or the other, as in care homes vs NI increase. That's not being inconsistent, that's just governing.
    I think that’s fair; while I was one of the 40% who never trusted Johnson, and, as his government and election campaign went on, trusted him even less, I wish Starmer would be a bit more consistent. As I’ve posted before, while I will vote tactically, my preference is swinging back to the LibDems.
    And that’s after feeling incredibly let down by Clegg.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    It is quite astonishing that Boris was brought down because he let other people have a drink after work, but that work (running the country) didn’t have a loophole that allowed it, whilst Sir Keir did exactly the same and was let off, with no one considering him dodgy, for doing exactly the same thing, but after doing a job that a loophole did allow staff to drink inside afterwards.

    All while we were meant to be terrified of socialising near family and friends, and reprimanded as being thoughtless and selfish, because the virus was so contagious and deadly

    He wasn’t brought down over a drink.

    He was brought down over lying about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority and then getting cabinet ministers to repeat that lie.
    That wouldn’t have brought him down without partygate
    He survived the vote on Partygate.
    He sure did but had it not happened, he wouldn’t have been brought down by Pincher gate
    He wasn't particularly nasty, and he probably wanted to do the right thing - but I've never EVER seen any politician so completely addicted to fibbing both mundane and profound as old Boris was. 2017-19, Starmer, Trump, Pol Pot, Stalin and everyone else included.

    He'd have been brought down by something or other sooner or later.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    It is quite astonishing that Boris was brought down because he let other people have a drink after work, but that work (running the country) didn’t have a loophole that allowed it, whilst Sir Keir did exactly the same and was let off, with no one considering him dodgy, for doing exactly the same thing, but after doing a job that a loophole did allow staff to drink inside afterwards.

    All while we were meant to be terrified of socialising near family and friends, and reprimanded as being thoughtless and selfish, because the virus was so contagious and deadly

    He wasn’t brought down over a drink.

    He was brought down over lying about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority and then getting cabinet ministers to repeat that lie.
    That wouldn’t have brought him down without partygate
    He survived the vote on Partygate.
    He sure did but had it not happened, he wouldn’t have been brought down by Pincher gate
    We have to disagree, lying about sexual assaults is a career ender.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,773
    isam said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



    Very constrained reception area for tomorrow morning's walk of shame with Ting Tong.
    Are those kind of racial stereotypes are ok to fling about now? Or do you have to have a PB Jeremy Clarkson style ‘edgy pass’?
    It's completely fine now Elon owns Twitter. We're all free speech absolutists.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342

    Pulpstar said:

    But it is easy on the eye.

    Where is this
    Just outside Loughborough.
    Ooh, nice. The Soar?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,391
    Penddu2 said:

    Leon said:

    I have made a disastrous hotel move

    Did you slide up to the sexiest girl at the bar...use your best patter....and she says 'you can call me Dave'.

    We have all done it.....
    Indeed. Chevy Chase once said that he would call you Betty. And Betty, when you call him, you can call him Al. It was the Eighties. A strange time.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    It is quite astonishing that Boris was brought down because he let other people have a drink after work, but that work (running the country) didn’t have a loophole that allowed it, whilst Sir Keir did exactly the same and was let off, with no one considering him dodgy, for doing exactly the same thing, but after doing a job that a loophole did allow staff to drink inside afterwards.

    All while we were meant to be terrified of socialising near family and friends, and reprimanded as being thoughtless and selfish, because the virus was so contagious and deadly

    He wasn’t brought down over a drink.

    He was brought down over lying about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority and then getting cabinet ministers to repeat that lie.
    That wouldn’t have brought him down without partygate
    He survived the vote on Partygate.
    He sure did but had it not happened, he wouldn’t have been brought down by Pincher gate
    We have to disagree, lying about sexual assaults is a career ender.
    It probably isn't, sadly. But it is when it proves the last straw (and it is a pretty hefty straw, rightly).

    Johnson was already damaged by Partygate and his general unsuitedness to being PM was increasingly coming to show. Public services were struggling, the economy had taken a big hit and airy and pithy wordsmithery wasn't enough. In that context, being asked to cover up (yet) another inappropriate Johnson appointment was one ask too far for too many MPs. However, had he still been 10 points ahead in the polls, they'd have swallowed it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,904
    Leon said:

    It’s just got a lovely buzzy welcoming vibe




    Aha.

    So that's who got the banking hall from BCCI.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Quite bizarre. I might be the only guest. I am surrounded by staff. And bland, shiny new marble



    Very constrained reception area for tomorrow morning's walk of shame with Ting Tong.
    Short time, my friend, short time

    Also no one in Thailand is called “ting tong” - it means “crazy”

    “You ting tong farang!” Etc
    When is the dentist appointment ?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,904
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    But it is easy on the eye.

    Where is this
    Just outside Loughborough.
    Ooh, nice. The Soar?
    It's quite strange; I'm within a few feet of the highest point in Notts, and I still get flood warnings.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    Cyclefree said:

    I have said often enough - because it is true - that conflicts of interest are at the heart of most scandals. Yesterday's evidence at the Post Office Inquiry provides yet another example. Two in fact.

    The investigators were given bonuses based on how much money they recovered from subpostmasters. So of course they had no incentive to find out the cause of the discrepancies and every incentive to pursue them for money. No wonder they did no proper investigations.

    Added to that the Post Office had to pay money to Fujitsu to get the necessary information to find out what was happening so they had an extra incentive not to to investigate and not to disclose.

    Christ knows who signed off on such an egregiously bad policy. The senior lawyers probably. I have no polite words for those responsible, whoever they are.

    For some reason I am reminded of the law in Pre Civil War US.

    The magistrate presiding over an enquiry into whether someone caught by slave catchers was actually a slave got a fee.

    One amount for if he found the captured person not to be a slave. Something like 50% extra if he found that the person *was* a slave.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT@cyclefree. Mass rape is a terror tactic, which goes beyond men seeing the women of the enemy as one of the spoils of war. It’s really a form of torture.

    And then denying that it's happened is another layer of torture for the victims.

    "There is an old Jewish saying: the antisemite does not accuse the Jew of stealing because he thinks he stole something. He does it because he enjoys watching the Jew turn out his pockets to prove his innocence.

    The rape deniers know women were raped, mutilated and tortured. They just don’t care. And they are enjoying seeing our wounded and violated people have to turn out our pockets to prove we’re not liars.
    "
    No one who denies the Holocaust truly disbelieves it. They enjoy trolling the descendants of the victims. I expect that's also the motivation of people who assert that slaves in the Southern US States were well-treated, and supported the Confederacy .
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT@cyclefree. Mass rape is a terror tactic, which goes beyond men seeing the women of the enemy as one of the spoils of war. It’s really a form of torture.

    And then denying that it's happened is another layer of torture for the victims.

    "There is an old Jewish saying: the antisemite does not accuse the Jew of stealing because he thinks he stole something. He does it because he enjoys watching the Jew turn out his pockets to prove his innocence.

    The rape deniers know women were raped, mutilated and tortured. They just don’t care. And they are enjoying seeing our wounded and violated people have to turn out our pockets to prove we’re not liars.
    "
    No one who denies the Holocaust truly disbelieves it. They enjoy trolling the descendants of the victims. I expect that's also the motivation of people who assert that slaves in the Southern US States were well-treated, and supported the Confederacy .

    Doublethink is a process of indoctrination in which subjects are expected to simultaneously accept two conflicting beliefs as truth, often at odds with their own memory or sense of reality.


    1984 was Orwell naming existing things he observed.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    It is quite astonishing that Boris was brought down because he let other people have a drink after work, but that work (running the country) didn’t have a loophole that allowed it, whilst Sir Keir did exactly the same and was let off, with no one considering him dodgy, for doing exactly the same thing, but after doing a job that a loophole did allow staff to drink inside afterwards.

    All while we were meant to be terrified of socialising near family and friends, and reprimanded as being thoughtless and selfish, because the virus was so contagious and deadly

    He wasn’t brought down over a drink.

    He was brought down over lying about putting a known sexual predator in a position of authority and then getting cabinet ministers to repeat that lie.
    That wouldn’t have brought him down without partygate
    He survived the vote on Partygate.
    He sure did but had it not happened, he wouldn’t have been brought down by Pincher gate
    We have to disagree, lying about sexual assaults is a career ender.
    It probably isn't, sadly. But it is when it proves the last straw (and it is a pretty hefty straw, rightly).

    Johnson was already damaged by Partygate and his general unsuitedness to being PM was increasingly coming to show. Public services were struggling, the economy had taken a big hit and airy and pithy wordsmithery wasn't enough. In that context, being asked to cover up (yet) another inappropriate Johnson appointment was one ask too far for too many MPs. However, had he still been 10 points ahead in the polls, they'd have swallowed it.
    Exactly, it was the last straw. If partygate hadn’t happened, he’d probably still have been clear in the polls and survived it easily
This discussion has been closed.