Wouldn't see the Son of a Toolmaker (TM) hammering like that.
Just possible they don't want to use the hardened head [edit] of the hammer on the die/punch (for risk of chips in the eye)? But if so, then the lady ought to be provided with an appropriate tool such as a wooden, plastic or otherwise suitable metal hammer.
Isn't this just our media effwits being their usual gormless, brain-dead, idiotic, plank-like presumptive selves?
AFAICS that is a repousse ("chasing") hammer, which has a wide, slightly domed end for forming metal sheets or wire without creating edges.
And a narrow domed end for creating a hammered texture.
So when they want to use a narrow die, they use the flat side. Using the domed face for that would wreck the tool.
I suspect an Indian Gent from a fairly wealthy family knows more about jewellery than a collection of UK tabloid press median morons ever will, since gold is how they traditionally store much wealth.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
Wouldn't see the Son of a Toolmaker (TM) hammering like that.
I am eagerly awaiting the Labour PPB with the cover of the Dusty Springfield hit as the backing music.
The only boy who could ever fool me
Specially for BJO:
Sir Keir was a toolmaker's son And when magic grandpa fell, he come along Blairites gathered 'round and started talkin' That's when his promises went a-walkin' Out from left to right they went walkin' Then he'd look into my eyes Lord knows, to my surprise The only one who could ever fool me Was the son of a toolmaker The only boy who could ever fool me Was the son of a toolmaker Yes, he was, he was, ooh, yes, he was
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Do we know why she told him to use the side of the hammer? Perhaps she decided he was going to miss if he tried to use the hammer face.
Clearly an operative of the KGB* trying to sow divison and diminish the status of our great leader.
* Or Mossad/Hamas/Q/AI/Aliens/Wokerati/Anti-Wokerati as preferred
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
He won in that his 24% is higher than any other party's vote share. However, 24% is also about what the Conservatives are currently polling at here and we don't see that as winning!
The parties of the right and centre right won a clear majority, and I think the Dutch would be rightly pissed if another rainbow coalition were to be formed with the losers - and would give more votes to the PVV next time.
Including the PVV in a right wing coalition would not give them anything close to a majority, but would tie them into government decisions.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
I reckon someone wanted him to look like a normal working class guy eating a bacon sarnie.
Maybe they thought it would make him look less Jewish?
Who cares about about a politician being Jewish (or from a Jewish background)? Possibly some Muslims, but then eating a bacon sarnie might not be a great way to go about it.
No, I think it was about not wanting to appear like a middle-class North Londoner. Same with the kitchenette debacle.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
Wouldn't see the Son of a Toolmaker (TM) hammering like that.
I am eagerly awaiting the Labour PPB with the cover of the Dusty Springfield hit as the backing music.
The only boy who could ever fool me
Specially for BJO:
Sir Keir was a toolmaker's son And when magic grandpa fell, he come along Blairites gathered 'round and started talkin' That's when his promises went a-walkin' Out from left to right they went walkin' Then he'd look into my eyes Lord knows, to my surprise The only one who could ever fool me Was the son of a toolmaker The only boy who could ever fool me Was the son of a toolmaker Yes, he was, he was, ooh, yes, he was
Nice try but it scans about as well as this government governs.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
He won in that his 24% is higher than any other party's vote share. However, 24% is also about what the Conservatives are currently polling at here and we don't see that as winning!
The parties of the right and centre right won a clear majority, and I think the Dutch would be rightly pissed if another rainbow coalition were to be formed - and would give more votes to the PVV next time.
Including the PVV in a right wing coalition would not give them anything close to a majority, but would tie them into government decisions.
Including the far right in a coalition government famously never caused problems in previous European history.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
I reckon someone wanted him to look like a normal working class guy eating a bacon sarnie.
Maybe they thought it would make him look less Jewish?
Who cares about about a politician being Jewish (or from a Jewish background)? Possibly some Muslims, but then eating a bacon sarnie might not be a great way to go about it.
No, I think it was about not wanting to appear like a middle-class North Londoner. Same with the kitchenette debacle.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
Most people look nice nibbling an olive. Eg I think both Sunak and Starmer probably would. But I'd still counsel against it in a general election year.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
Most people look nice nibbling an olive. Eg I think both Sunak and Starmer probably would. But I'd still counsel against it in a general election year.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
He won in that his 24% is higher than any other party's vote share. However, 24% is also about what the Conservatives are currently polling at here and we don't see that as winning!
The parties of the right and centre right won a clear majority, and I think the Dutch would be rightly pissed if another rainbow coalition were to be formed with the losers - and would give more votes to the PVV next time.
Including the PVV in a right wing coalition would not give them anything close to a majority, but would tie them into government decisions.
Some Dutch parties ruled out entering a coalition with the PVV, so parties who voted for them would presumably be pissed if they then did that. However, the bigger parties on the right, the VVD and NSC, were more circumspect. NSC ummed and ahhed a bit, but did eventually come down to opposing the idea of any coalition with the PVV. The VVD notably didn't rule out the idea, but weren't keen. The VVD leader said she wouldn't want to be in a cabinet in which the PVV was the biggest party.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
iirc Ed's advisers told him not to eat it but he was hungry and thought the photo op was over.
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
What?
If you are, say, a disaffected young black man from Lewisham - aggrieved at the perceived injustice of white society - then you will look for a belief system that empowers and embodies your anger. That role used to be fulfilled by radical left wing thought - eg the Black Panthers
However, left wing thought has largely collapsed as a coherent ideology, or it has folded itself into the worldwide creed of Islam. This is an ancient global religion which is seen as opposed to the West, as powerful in itself, and- not least- gives young men a self respect and a sense of deep superiority over women and non believers = Kaffirs
Suddenly you are not the abject descendant of slaves you are a member of the chosen, A devout Muslim.
I can absolutely see why this appeals to angry black men - and indeed angry white men. And all else being equal I would say good luck to them, Islam is a noble religion, at its best, and surely offers a happier, more meaningful life than base materialism on the lower rungs of capitalist society. Cf Muhammad Ali
The trouble is many are attracted to the more extreme forms of Islam which require violent attack on westerners and the West
A takeaway from the BBC documentary Hometown (which is about Huddersfield and I linked to it earlier) was that the presenter, himself a British Muslim from the town, found that the warped interpretation of Islam that the those he investigated held was that they retained their religiosity, despite dealing drugs (and carrying knives), if their customers were non-Muslims. Extend this to the grooming gangs.
Sunak may not be stupid enough that he doesn't know how to use a hammer - but he obviously is stupid enough not to realise that doing this will result in millions of memes that make it look like he doesn't know how to use a hammer. And the latter stupidity is, I submit, worse for a prime minister.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
iirc Ed's advisers told him not to eat it but he was hungry and thought the photo op was over.
I wonder what would happen if we tried electing leaders who could manage to get through a day without needing a gang of twentysomething posh advisers to tell them whether and how to eat.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
iirc Ed's advisers told him not to eat it but he was hungry and thought the photo op was over.
I wonder what would happen if we tried electing leaders who could manage to get through a day without needing a gang of twentysomething posh advisers to tell them whether and how to eat.
Sounds like he didn't listen to the twentysomething posh advisors and as a result wasn't elected.
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
Why mention the Caribbean?
Because Anthony Small's parents came from Jamaica IIRC.
What?
You said this, when talking about the 7/7 bombers et al:
"They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate"
I said that Anthony Small was likewise a descendant of immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited, coming as they did from Jamaica, but this doesn't correlate with those descendants' ability to assimilate, nor with their radicalisation. They are Brits and have been radicalised.
As for Powell's (and your?) point about descendants of immigrants struggling to assimilate I would disagree with that very strongly. Just look around you. Unless you base it on the colour of their skin only.
Sorry, is what your point that, because not all of the 1960s immigrants and their descendants turned out to be perpetrators of terrorism or industrial scale rapes motivated by religion/sectarianism, it’s not worth worrying about? Or that these crimes would have been committed anyway by white British people?
I’d say the Islamic immigrants have struggled to assimilate, and that BLM shows that black immigration has had its problems too, else there’d be no BLM
But you can segment society any way you want. People from single parent families (to avoid the eg those with red hair), those whose household income is X, those who were bullied at school.
There are plenty of reasons why people turn to crime. You are saying that peoples' race or religion is one such factor. I am not so sure. You also say that "black immigration has had its problems too". Damn right it has. There has since the outset been the most shocking degree of racism directed at black people and frankly if there is an overshoot (I think BLM are a bunch of tossers but am quite content to see footballers demonstrate that they are against racism) then so what.
What I am not clear is what sort of Britain you want to live in. Is it one without crime but with all flavours of the globe living here; is it one whereby all children of Ghanaian parents go to Eton and speak proper; is it one where there is just as much crime as there is now but it is committed by (presumably white) British people?
And where would you draw the line of who gets in and who doesn't? Before or after Huguenots? Jews? Ugandan Asians? Windrush?
What sort of Britain are people supposed to assimilate into?
Possibly one where a Political Party representing a religious group with wildly different views to the rest of society isn’t on the cards
"On the cards". Maybe it is but it doesn't exist today and we are supposed to be swimming in rivers of blood.
Plus you haven't answered my question(s).
I’ve had this argument so many times on here that I can’t be bothered now really. I end up becoming a board on to which people can project their wilful misunderstandings & virtue signalling
I'm sorry you feel that. To me your position is illogical. You haven't explained what people are assimilating into but that's cool we can go back to STV/AV vs FPTP.
Enoch Powell said that if immigration wasn’t stopped, white British people would be minorities in big cities, and that has happened. It was unthinkable when he said it, and people said he was exaggerating, but it is unarguable that it’s happened
He said that the immigrant community wouldn’t be evenly spread from Penzance to Aberdeen, but there’d be clusters where practically only immigrants and their descendants lived, and that’s true too
He extrapolated that there would be acts of violence that could only be described as civil war, and 7/7, Lee Rigby & the Rotherham rapes seem to be examples of that to me. Not that immigrants are predisposed to be criminals, but that these crimes only took place because of the inevitable clash of cultures enabled by mass immigration
I really didn’t think I’d need to say this, as PB seems quite an intelligent place, but the fact I see those three things as true doesn’t mean i dislike immigrants, or people who have different colour skin from me; far from it. I take it as an inevitable part of the modern world, but it doesn’t mean I have to pretend that what was said by Enoch Powell, (before my time, & I only read it in 2011) doesn’t ring true.
The lesson of the Hammer is surely that it's perfectly believable Sunak can't use one and never has, because has people to do that sort of thing for him.
The lesson of the Hammer is surely that it's perfectly believable Sunak can't use one and never has, because has people to do that sort of thing for him.
People who say things like this really have no right to complain about populism.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
Most people look nice nibbling an olive. Eg I think both Sunak and Starmer probably would. But I'd still counsel against it in a general election year.
Olives wouldn't be a good look - far too Waitrose. Bag of chips at the Seaside feels fairly safe - no fish though, too much risk of dropping, and certainly no saveloy.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
iirc Ed's advisers told him not to eat it but he was hungry and thought the photo op was over.
I wonder what would happen if we tried electing leaders who could manage to get through a day without needing a gang of twentysomething posh advisers to tell them whether and how to eat.
I wonder if we could run an election without any photo-op stunts.
Given there is no serious opponent to President Biden in the Democratic primaries now Robert Kennedy Jnr has gone Independent it won't make a huge difference. The focus will be on Iowa and the GOP caucuses and whether Trump wins comfortably or a challenger gets close or even beats him
And, yet, I still feel nervous betting on him.
Guy could fall over at any minute.
I think the election will be decided by the debates and one that is most cogent/less doddery wins.
I thought Trump has already said he will not take part in Presidential debates.
Which could be a mistake as he'll lose the chance of looking fitter and more alert than Biden.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
Wouldn't see the Son of a Toolmaker (TM) hammering like that.
I am eagerly awaiting the Labour PPB with the cover of the Dusty Springfield hit as the backing music.
The only boy who could ever fool me
Specially for BJO:
Sir Keir was a toolmaker's son And when magic grandpa fell, he come along Blairites gathered 'round and started talkin' That's when his promises went a-walkin' Out from left to right they went walkin' Then he'd look into my eyes Lord knows, to my surprise The only one who could ever fool me Was the son of a toolmaker The only boy who could ever fool me Was the son of a toolmaker Yes, he was, he was, ooh, yes, he was
Nice try but it scans about as well as this government governs.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
He won in that his 24% is higher than any other party's vote share. However, 24% is also about what the Conservatives are currently polling at here and we don't see that as winning!
The parties of the right and centre right won a clear majority, and I think the Dutch would be rightly pissed if another rainbow coalition were to be formed with the losers - and would give more votes to the PVV next time.
Including the PVV in a right wing coalition would not give them anything close to a majority, but would tie them into government decisions.
Some Dutch parties ruled out entering a coalition with the PVV, so parties who voted for them would presumably be pissed if they then did that. However, the bigger parties on the right, the VVD and NSC, were more circumspect. NSC ummed and ahhed a bit, but did eventually come down to opposing the idea of any coalition with the PVV. The VVD notably didn't rule out the idea, but weren't keen. The VVD leader said she wouldn't want to be in a cabinet in which the PVV was the biggest party.
So is it better that the real decisions on the next government are made among the politicians after the election, or that the broad coalitions are decided beforehand, and manifestos presented by parties to the electorate, with a good chance that one will win a majority and take over the next day?
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
Given there is no serious opponent to President Biden in the Democratic primaries now Robert Kennedy Jnr has gone Independent it won't make a huge difference. The focus will be on Iowa and the GOP caucuses and whether Trump wins comfortably or a challenger gets close or even beats him
And, yet, I still feel nervous betting on him.
Guy could fall over at any minute.
I think the election will be decided by the debates and one that is most cogent/less doddery wins.
I thought Trump has already said he will not take part in Presidential debates.
Which could be a mistake as he'll lose the chance of looking fitter and more alert than Biden.
Maybe. Tbh I thought it was only the Republican debates he was avoiding but it is not just Biden who is getting old. Trump has had a few "senior moments" of his own recently.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
Why mention the Caribbean?
Because Anthony Small's parents came from Jamaica IIRC.
What?
You said this, when talking about the 7/7 bombers et al:
"They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate"
I said that Anthony Small was likewise a descendant of immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited, coming as they did from Jamaica, but this doesn't correlate with those descendants' ability to assimilate, nor with their radicalisation. They are Brits and have been radicalised.
As for Powell's (and your?) point about descendants of immigrants struggling to assimilate I would disagree with that very strongly. Just look around you. Unless you base it on the colour of their skin only.
Sorry, is what your point that, because not all of the 1960s immigrants and their descendants turned out to be perpetrators of terrorism or industrial scale rapes motivated by religion/sectarianism, it’s not worth worrying about? Or that these crimes would have been committed anyway by white British people?
I’d say the Islamic immigrants have struggled to assimilate, and that BLM shows that black immigration has had its problems too, else there’d be no BLM
But you can segment society any way you want. People from single parent families (to avoid the eg those with red hair), those whose household income is X, those who were bullied at school.
There are plenty of reasons why people turn to crime. You are saying that peoples' race or religion is one such factor. I am not so sure. You also say that "black immigration has had its problems too". Damn right it has. There has since the outset been the most shocking degree of racism directed at black people and frankly if there is an overshoot (I think BLM are a bunch of tossers but am quite content to see footballers demonstrate that they are against racism) then so what.
What I am not clear is what sort of Britain you want to live in. Is it one without crime but with all flavours of the globe living here; is it one whereby all children of Ghanaian parents go to Eton and speak proper; is it one where there is just as much crime as there is now but it is committed by (presumably white) British people?
And where would you draw the line of who gets in and who doesn't? Before or after Huguenots? Jews? Ugandan Asians? Windrush?
What sort of Britain are people supposed to assimilate into?
Possibly one where a Political Party representing a religious group with wildly different views to the rest of society isn’t on the cards
"On the cards". Maybe it is but it doesn't exist today and we are supposed to be swimming in rivers of blood.
Plus you haven't answered my question(s).
I’ve had this argument so many times on here that I can’t be bothered now really. I end up becoming a board on to which people can project their wilful misunderstandings & virtue signalling
We are swimming in rivers of shit as an alternative
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Do we know why she told him to use the side of the hammer? Perhaps she decided he was going to miss if he tried to use the hammer face.
I've commented on that.
It is a chasing hammer - one end is a wide dome for flattening metal sheets and wire without hammer-edge marks. The other end is a narrow dome for texturing.
So when you want to hammer *something* - like a die - and don't want to swap hammers, you use the flat side.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
Most people look nice nibbling an olive. Eg I think both Sunak and Starmer probably would. But I'd still counsel against it in a general election year.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Do we know why she told him to use the side of the hammer? Perhaps she decided he was going to miss if he tried to use the hammer face.
I've commented on that.
It is a chasing hammer - one end is a wide dome for flattening metal sheets and wire without hammer-edge marks. The other end is a narrow dome for texturing.
So when you want to hammer *something* - like a die - and don't want to swap hammers, you use the flat side.
The people ‘hammering’ him for it seem to be the type of people who also never use a hammer.
Wouldn't see the Son of a Toolmaker (TM) hammering like that.
I am eagerly awaiting the Labour PPB with the cover of the Dusty Springfield hit as the backing music.
The only boy who could ever fool me
Specially for BJO:
Sir Keir was a toolmaker's son And when magic grandpa fell, he come along Blairites gathered 'round and started talkin' That's when his promises went a-walkin' Out from left to right they went walkin' Then he'd look into my eyes Lord knows, to my surprise The only one who could ever fool me Was the son of a toolmaker The only boy who could ever fool me Was the son of a toolmaker Yes, he was, he was, ooh, yes, he was
Nice try but it scans about as well as this government governs.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Hang on, didn't Ed Miliband invite the press to photograph him eating a bacon sandwich?
Maybe.* But the press never showed the woman from Greggs instructing him on how to eat it in a non-conventional way.
*Did he?! It's believable, unfortunately. He had some very bad advisers, I think. No one ever looks good eating things.
Most people look nice nibbling an olive. Eg I think both Sunak and Starmer probably would. But I'd still counsel against it in a general election year.
Still, he'll need that training over the next few weeks, I guess.
If Farage and Co had put a bit more effort into that By Election, it’s likely UKIP would have won it; instead they had hundreds of people in Clacton making sure Carswell retained his seat, which was a gimme anyway… and I was on H&M at big prices
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
I've not followed this - is this guy anti-EU? I recall around the time of the referendum that Netherlands were possible candidates to follow us out.
Yes, in theory he wants to take Holland out of the EU.
Won't happen though, any more than Le Pen will take France out. Wilders doesn't have the clear majority he'd need and they're in the Euro which makes it ten times more difficult and expensive.
Given there is no serious opponent to President Biden in the Democratic primaries now Robert Kennedy Jnr has gone Independent it won't make a huge difference. The focus will be on Iowa and the GOP caucuses and whether Trump wins comfortably or a challenger gets close or even beats him
And, yet, I still feel nervous betting on him.
Guy could fall over at any minute.
I think the election will be decided by the debates and one that is most cogent/less doddery wins.
I thought Trump has already said he will not take part in Presidential debates.
Which could be a mistake as he'll lose the chance of looking fitter and more alert than Biden.
Trump can't 'debate' though. He just chunters away in his own world.
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
If you **** up, apologise properly. Like a grown up. Especially if you want to run the country...
Do you mean like Sunak's non-apology over Eat Out to Help Out?
I missed that, what was it?
But yes, apologies can be hard to make appear sincere. As I've shown on here once or twice...
Sorry*, I misread your original point. Johnson's non-apology over Partygate or Pincher would have been better examples; Sunak's has been a literal non-apology.
(*Or should that be 'sorry if you have been upset by my reply'? ;-))
Even the bloke who doesn't know how to use contactless payments or fill his car up says what the side of the hammer, are you sure...to which the response is, yes.
Shock horror tw@tter spreading BS. But I bet HIGNFY will show it out of context.
As a clip, it works well. Far more people will see it than the full version with the explanation of why he's doing that. Unfair, of course, but so was baconsandwichgate and many others (I do think it sucks that we're at this level).
The only danger for Lab is that the woman who instructed him to do it that way takes it up and it turns into a Lab dissing her story, particularly if it's a Lab metropolitan liberal elite tweeter sticking it to a hard working salt of the earth type from the red wall and/or can be spun that way.
Do we know why she told him to use the side of the hammer? Perhaps she decided he was going to miss if he tried to use the hammer face.
I've commented on that.
It is a chasing hammer - one end is a wide dome for flattening metal sheets and wire without hammer-edge marks. The other end is a narrow dome for texturing.
So when you want to hammer *something* - like a die - and don't want to swap hammers, you use the flat side.
The people ‘hammering’ him for it seem to be the type of people who also never use a hammer.
I have the advantage that one grandad was a Director of a toolmakers in Sheffield.
Given there is no serious opponent to President Biden in the Democratic primaries now Robert Kennedy Jnr has gone Independent it won't make a huge difference. The focus will be on Iowa and the GOP caucuses and whether Trump wins comfortably or a challenger gets close or even beats him
And, yet, I still feel nervous betting on him.
Guy could fall over at any minute.
I think the election will be decided by the debates and one that is most cogent/less doddery wins.
I thought Trump has already said he will not take part in Presidential debates.
Which could be a mistake as he'll lose the chance of looking fitter and more alert than Biden.
Maybe. Tbh I thought it was only the Republican debates he was avoiding but it is not just Biden who is getting old. Trump has had a few "senior moments" of his own recently.
Yes he’s sitting out the preliminary Republican debates. He’ll turn up once the primary season actually starts.
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
Why mention the Caribbean?
Because Anthony Small's parents came from Jamaica IIRC.
What?
You said this, when talking about the 7/7 bombers et al:
"They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate"
I said that Anthony Small was likewise a descendant of immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited, coming as they did from Jamaica, but this doesn't correlate with those descendants' ability to assimilate, nor with their radicalisation. They are Brits and have been radicalised.
As for Powell's (and your?) point about descendants of immigrants struggling to assimilate I would disagree with that very strongly. Just look around you. Unless you base it on the colour of their skin only.
Sorry, is what your point that, because not all of the 1960s immigrants and their descendants turned out to be perpetrators of terrorism or industrial scale rapes motivated by religion/sectarianism, it’s not worth worrying about? Or that these crimes would have been committed anyway by white British people?
I’d say the Islamic immigrants have struggled to assimilate, and that BLM shows that black immigration has had its problems too, else there’d be no BLM
But you can segment society any way you want. People from single parent families (to avoid the eg those with red hair), those whose household income is X, those who were bullied at school.
There are plenty of reasons why people turn to crime. You are saying that peoples' race or religion is one such factor. I am not so sure. You also say that "black immigration has had its problems too". Damn right it has. There has since the outset been the most shocking degree of racism directed at black people and frankly if there is an overshoot (I think BLM are a bunch of tossers but am quite content to see footballers demonstrate that they are against racism) then so what.
What I am not clear is what sort of Britain you want to live in. Is it one without crime but with all flavours of the globe living here; is it one whereby all children of Ghanaian parents go to Eton and speak proper; is it one where there is just as much crime as there is now but it is committed by (presumably white) British people?
And where would you draw the line of who gets in and who doesn't? Before or after Huguenots? Jews? Ugandan Asians? Windrush?
What sort of Britain are people supposed to assimilate into?
Possibly one where a Political Party representing a religious group with wildly different views to the rest of society isn’t on the cards
"On the cards". Maybe it is but it doesn't exist today and we are supposed to be swimming in rivers of blood.
Plus you haven't answered my question(s).
I’ve had this argument so many times on here that I can’t be bothered now really. I end up becoming a board on to which people can project their wilful misunderstandings & virtue signalling
I'm sorry you feel that. To me your position is illogical. You haven't explained what people are assimilating into but that's cool we can go back to STV/AV vs FPTP.
Enoch Powell said that if immigration wasn’t stopped, white British people would be minorities in big cities, and that has happened. It was unthinkable when he said it, and people said he was exaggerating, but it is unarguable that it’s happened
He said that the immigrant community wouldn’t be evenly spread from Penzance to Aberdeen, but there’d be clusters where practically only immigrants and their descendants lived, and that’s true too
He extrapolated that there would be acts of violence that could only be described as civil war, and 7/7, Lee Rigby & the Rotherham rapes seem to be examples of that to me. Not that immigrants are predisposed to be criminals, but that these crimes only took place because of the inevitable clash of cultures enabled by mass immigration
I really didn’t think I’d need to say this, as PB seems quite an intelligent place, but the fact I see those three things as true doesn’t mean i dislike immigrants, or people who have different colour skin from me; far from it. I take it as an inevitable part of the modern world, but it doesn’t mean I have to pretend that what was said by Enoch Powell, (before my time, & I only read it in 2011) doesn’t ring true.
Powell was both right and wrong. He underestimated how long mass immigration could last without widespread massive social problems but we could be moving into an era where he is partially proved right.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
He won in that his 24% is higher than any other party's vote share. However, 24% is also about what the Conservatives are currently polling at here and we don't see that as winning!
The parties of the right and centre right won a clear majority, and I think the Dutch would be rightly pissed if another rainbow coalition were to be formed - and would give more votes to the PVV next time.
Including the PVV in a right wing coalition would not give them anything close to a majority, but would tie them into government decisions.
Including the far right in a coalition government famously never caused problems in previous European history.
The circumstances in Holland today are completely different to those in Germany in 1933. In the case of the latter, two thirds voted for parties opposed to democracy, and Hitler was granted powers to rule by decree.
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
What?
If you are, say, a disaffected young black man from Lewisham - aggrieved at the perceived injustice of white society - then you will look for a belief system that empowers and embodies your anger. That role used to be fulfilled by radical left wing thought - eg the Black Panthers
However, left wing thought has largely collapsed as a coherent ideology, or it has folded itself into the worldwide creed of Islam. This is an ancient global religion which is seen as opposed to the West, as powerful in itself, and- not least- gives young men a self respect and a sense of deep superiority over women and non believers = Kaffirs
Suddenly you are not the abject descendant of slaves you are a member of the chosen, A devout Muslim.
I can absolutely see why this appeals to angry black men - and indeed angry white men. And all else being equal I would say good luck to them, Islam is a noble religion, at its best, and surely offers a happier, more meaningful life than base materialism on the lower rungs of capitalist society. Cf Muhammad Ali
The trouble is many are attracted to the more extreme forms of Islam which require violent attack on westerners and the West
A takeaway from the BBC documentary Hometown (which is about Huddersfield and I linked to it earlier) was that the presenter, himself a British Muslim from the town, found that the warped interpretation of Islam that the those he investigated held was that they retained their religiosity, despite dealing drugs (and carrying knives), if their customers were non-Muslims. Extend this to the grooming gangs.
A noteable thing about Islam is how it has changed in many countries due, for instance, to the influence of Saudi-backed wahhabism. There's no reason Islam can't accommodate itself to local cultures, and indeed does, but there is huge pressure being placed on it by Islamists. Traditionally there is, or was, a strong contrast between the way Islam is observed in, say, Malaysia, as opposed to the Arab states.
V S Naipaul was quick off the mark to spot these developments. See "Among the Believers" (1981) and "Beyond Belief" (1998). It's been a long time coming.
Given there is no serious opponent to President Biden in the Democratic primaries now Robert Kennedy Jnr has gone Independent it won't make a huge difference. The focus will be on Iowa and the GOP caucuses and whether Trump wins comfortably or a challenger gets close or even beats him
And, yet, I still feel nervous betting on him.
Guy could fall over at any minute.
I think the election will be decided by the debates and one that is most cogent/less doddery wins.
I thought Trump has already said he will not take part in Presidential debates.
Which could be a mistake as he'll lose the chance of looking fitter and more alert than Biden.
Maybe. Tbh I thought it was only the Republican debates he was avoiding but it is not just Biden who is getting old. Trump has had a few "senior moments" of his own recently.
Yes he’s sitting out the preliminary Republican debates. He’ll turn up once the primary season actually starts.
As for white british people becoming a minority in big cities it becomes a big problem when you start to deal with local councils which in many cases have been taken over by muslims.
Given there is no serious opponent to President Biden in the Democratic primaries now Robert Kennedy Jnr has gone Independent it won't make a huge difference. The focus will be on Iowa and the GOP caucuses and whether Trump wins comfortably or a challenger gets close or even beats him
And, yet, I still feel nervous betting on him.
Guy could fall over at any minute.
I think the election will be decided by the debates and one that is most cogent/less doddery wins.
I thought Trump has already said he will not take part in Presidential debates.
Which could be a mistake as he'll lose the chance of looking fitter and more alert than Biden.
Trump can't 'debate' though. He just chunters away in his own world.
Trump is up sh*t creek, and going ever further up it as more legal actions come his way.
He still hasn't had a criminal indictment for fraud in New York for example - it is currently a civil case.
But the charges laid all have criminal equivalents (I am told), so if the evidence is strong enough to win on the balance of probabilities (and we already have summary 'proven' findings on just findings of fact for two of the charges) the DA can come back later (if the Governor gives permission) with similar criminal charges for the stronger beyond reasonable doubt standard. I have not checked but I expect these could carry jail time.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
I've not followed this - is this guy anti-EU? I recall around the time of the referendum that Netherlands were possible candidates to follow us out.
Yes, in theory he wants to take Holland out of the EU.
Won't happen though, any more than Le Pen will take France out. Wilders doesn't have the clear majority he'd need and they're in the Euro which makes it ten times more difficult and expensive.
He'd need to persuade the public first. They aren't up for leaving the EU atm. Course that could change if the country goes all 'Holland first, make the Dutch great again'.
Given there is no serious opponent to President Biden in the Democratic primaries now Robert Kennedy Jnr has gone Independent it won't make a huge difference. The focus will be on Iowa and the GOP caucuses and whether Trump wins comfortably or a challenger gets close or even beats him
I'm interested in whether Biden persuades Michelle Obama to stand as Democrat nominee and steps down in her place. If she agrees, she'd surely get the nomination and beat Trump.
I’m intrigued where this perennial Michelle Obama thing comes from.
She’s been as adamant as anyone can be on these things that she will never, ever, run for elected office. Full stop.
I think it comes from her (a) being popular and (b) being connected to politics. It is a very silly suggestion based on wish-fulfilment.
Bit like the reflexive “Bring me a live Kennedy”
Which reached a peak when Teddy keeled over - the random member of the Kennedy clan they tried first, actually bowed out. Because *she* said that she wasn’t up to it.
Given there is no serious opponent to President Biden in the Democratic primaries now Robert Kennedy Jnr has gone Independent it won't make a huge difference. The focus will be on Iowa and the GOP caucuses and whether Trump wins comfortably or a challenger gets close or even beats him
And, yet, I still feel nervous betting on him.
Guy could fall over at any minute.
I think the election will be decided by the debates and one that is most cogent/less doddery wins.
I thought Trump has already said he will not take part in Presidential debates.
Which could be a mistake as he'll lose the chance of looking fitter and more alert than Biden.
Trump can't 'debate' though. He just chunters away in his own world.
Trump is up sh*t creek, and going ever further up it as more legal actions come his way.
He still hasn't had a criminal indictment for fraud in New York for example - it is currently a civil case.
But the charges laid all have criminal equivalents (I am told), so if the evidence is strong enough to win on the balance of probabilities (and we already have summary 'proven' findings on just findings of fact for two of the charges) the DA can come back later (if the Governor gives permission) with similar criminal charges for the stronger beyond reasonable doubt standard. I have not checked but I expect these could carry jail time.
I think he is, yes. I'm just waiting for the shoes to drop.
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
Why mention the Caribbean?
Because Anthony Small's parents came from Jamaica IIRC.
What?
You said this, when talking about the 7/7 bombers et al:
"They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate"
I said that Anthony Small was likewise a descendant of immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited, coming as they did from Jamaica, but this doesn't correlate with those descendants' ability to assimilate, nor with their radicalisation. They are Brits and have been radicalised.
As for Powell's (and your?) point about descendants of immigrants struggling to assimilate I would disagree with that very strongly. Just look around you. Unless you base it on the colour of their skin only.
Sorry, is what your point that, because not all of the 1960s immigrants and their descendants turned out to be perpetrators of terrorism or industrial scale rapes motivated by religion/sectarianism, it’s not worth worrying about? Or that these crimes would have been committed anyway by white British people?
I’d say the Islamic immigrants have struggled to assimilate, and that BLM shows that black immigration has had its problems too, else there’d be no BLM
But you can segment society any way you want. People from single parent families (to avoid the eg those with red hair), those whose household income is X, those who were bullied at school.
There are plenty of reasons why people turn to crime. You are saying that peoples' race or religion is one such factor. I am not so sure. You also say that "black immigration has had its problems too". Damn right it has. There has since the outset been the most shocking degree of racism directed at black people and frankly if there is an overshoot (I think BLM are a bunch of tossers but am quite content to see footballers demonstrate that they are against racism) then so what.
What I am not clear is what sort of Britain you want to live in. Is it one without crime but with all flavours of the globe living here; is it one whereby all children of Ghanaian parents go to Eton and speak proper; is it one where there is just as much crime as there is now but it is committed by (presumably white) British people?
And where would you draw the line of who gets in and who doesn't? Before or after Huguenots? Jews? Ugandan Asians? Windrush?
What sort of Britain are people supposed to assimilate into?
Possibly one where a Political Party representing a religious group with wildly different views to the rest of society isn’t on the cards
"On the cards". Maybe it is but it doesn't exist today and we are supposed to be swimming in rivers of blood.
Plus you haven't answered my question(s).
I’ve had this argument so many times on here that I can’t be bothered now really. I end up becoming a board on to which people can project their wilful misunderstandings & virtue signalling
I'm sorry you feel that. To me your position is illogical. You haven't explained what people are assimilating into but that's cool we can go back to STV/AV vs FPTP.
Enoch Powell said that if immigration wasn’t stopped, white British people would be minorities in big cities, and that has happened. It was unthinkable when he said it, and people said he was exaggerating, but it is unarguable that it’s happened
He said that the immigrant community wouldn’t be evenly spread from Penzance to Aberdeen, but there’d be clusters where practically only immigrants and their descendants lived, and that’s true too
He extrapolated that there would be acts of violence that could only be described as civil war, and 7/7, Lee Rigby & the Rotherham rapes seem to be examples of that to me. Not that immigrants are predisposed to be criminals, but that these crimes only took place because of the inevitable clash of cultures enabled by mass immigration
I really didn’t think I’d need to say this, as PB seems quite an intelligent place, but the fact I see those three things as true doesn’t mean i dislike immigrants, or people who have different colour skin from me; far from it. I take it as an inevitable part of the modern world, but it doesn’t mean I have to pretend that what was said by Enoch Powell, (before my time, & I only read it in 2011) doesn’t ring true.
Powell was both right and wrong. He underestimated how long mass immigration could last without widespread massive social problems but we could be moving into an era where he is partially proved right.
Public concern around immigration is at historic lows in the UK.
Given there is no serious opponent to President Biden in the Democratic primaries now Robert Kennedy Jnr has gone Independent it won't make a huge difference. The focus will be on Iowa and the GOP caucuses and whether Trump wins comfortably or a challenger gets close or even beats him
And, yet, I still feel nervous betting on him.
Guy could fall over at any minute.
I think the election will be decided by the debates and one that is most cogent/less doddery wins.
I thought Trump has already said he will not take part in Presidential debates.
Which could be a mistake as he'll lose the chance of looking fitter and more alert than Biden.
Trump can't 'debate' though. He just chunters away in his own world.
Trump is up sh*t creek, and going ever further up it as more legal actions come his way.
He still hasn't had a criminal indictment for fraud in New York for example - it is currently a civil case.
But the charges laid all have criminal equivalents (I am told), so if the evidence is strong enough to win on the balance of probabilities (and we already have summary 'proven' findings on just findings of fact for two of the charges) the DA can come back later (if the Governor gives permission) with similar criminal charges for the stronger beyond reasonable doubt standard. I have not checked but I expect these could carry jail time.
Apparently if Trump gets in again he plans to fire 100000 govt employees straight off the bat.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
He won in that his 24% is higher than any other party's vote share. However, 24% is also about what the Conservatives are currently polling at here and we don't see that as winning!
The parties of the right and centre right won a clear majority, and I think the Dutch would be rightly pissed if another rainbow coalition were to be formed - and would give more votes to the PVV next time.
Including the PVV in a right wing coalition would not give them anything close to a majority, but would tie them into government decisions.
Including the far right in a coalition government famously never caused problems in previous European history.
The circumstances in Holland today are completely different to those in Germany in 1933. In the case of the latter, two thirds voted for parties opposed to democracy, and Hitler was granted powers to rule by decree.
No one is going to shut down Dutch democracy.
After Trump and others, I would take the threat of democratic backsliding seriously.
For the first time since the war began, the Islamist group Hizb-Ut-Tahrir has given the police notice of a separate protest at the Israeli Embassy in Kensington.
Hizb ut-Tahrir's status has been a subject of political controversy for decades.
Former prime ministers Tony Blair and David Cameron both promised to ban the group, whose stated aim is the re-establishment of an Islamic caliphate, before abandoning the proposals https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67517410
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
What?
If you are, say, a disaffected young black man from Lewisham - aggrieved at the perceived injustice of white society - then you will look for a belief system that empowers and embodies your anger. That role used to be fulfilled by radical left wing thought - eg the Black Panthers
However, left wing thought has largely collapsed as a coherent ideology, or it has folded itself into the worldwide creed of Islam. This is an ancient global religion which is seen as opposed to the West, as powerful in itself, and- not least- gives young men a self respect and a sense of deep superiority over women and non believers = Kaffirs
Suddenly you are not the abject descendant of slaves you are a member of the chosen, A devout Muslim.
I can absolutely see why this appeals to angry black men - and indeed angry white men. And all else being equal I would say good luck to them, Islam is a noble religion, at its best, and surely offers a happier, more meaningful life than base materialism on the lower rungs of capitalist society. Cf Muhammad Ali
The trouble is many are attracted to the more extreme forms of Islam which require violent attack on westerners and the West
A takeaway from the BBC documentary Hometown (which is about Huddersfield and I linked to it earlier) was that the presenter, himself a British Muslim from the town, found that the warped interpretation of Islam that the those he investigated held was that they retained their religiosity, despite dealing drugs (and carrying knives), if their customers were non-Muslims. Extend this to the grooming gangs.
A noteable thing about Islam is how it has changed in many countries due, for instance, to the influence of Saudi-backed wahhabism. There's no reason Islam can't accommodate itself to local cultures, and indeed does, but there is huge pressure being placed on it by Islamists. Traditionally there is, or was, a strong contrast between the way Islam is observed in, say, Malaysia, as opposed to the Arab states.
V S Naipaul was quick off the mark to spot these developments. See "Among the Believers" (1981) and "Beyond Belief" (1998). It's been a long time coming.
Strangely, if you invest billions preaching hate over decades. You get a lot of hate.
Why the actual fuck we allow this stuff in British Prisons is beyond me.
As for white british people becoming a minority in big cities it becomes a big problem when you start to deal with local councils which in many cases have been taken over by muslims.
Ok Moray, here's a hint: you're going to have to master capitalising the words correctly if you want us to believe you are not a Russian troll. Just trying to help there.
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
What?
If you are, say, a disaffected young black man from Lewisham - aggrieved at the perceived injustice of white society - then you will look for a belief system that empowers and embodies your anger. That role used to be fulfilled by radical left wing thought - eg the Black Panthers
However, left wing thought has largely collapsed as a coherent ideology, or it has folded itself into the worldwide creed of Islam. This is an ancient global religion which is seen as opposed to the West, as powerful in itself, and- not least- gives young men a self respect and a sense of deep superiority over women and non believers = Kaffirs
Suddenly you are not the abject descendant of slaves you are a member of the chosen, A devout Muslim.
I can absolutely see why this appeals to angry black men - and indeed angry white men. And all else being equal I would say good luck to them, Islam is a noble religion, at its best, and surely offers a happier, more meaningful life than base materialism on the lower rungs of capitalist society. Cf Muhammad Ali
The trouble is many are attracted to the more extreme forms of Islam which require violent attack on westerners and the West
A takeaway from the BBC documentary Hometown (which is about Huddersfield and I linked to it earlier) was that the presenter, himself a British Muslim from the town, found that the warped interpretation of Islam that the those he investigated held was that they retained their religiosity, despite dealing drugs (and carrying knives), if their customers were non-Muslims. Extend this to the grooming gangs.
A noteable thing about Islam is how it has changed in many countries due, for instance, to the influence of Saudi-backed wahhabism. There's no reason Islam can't accommodate itself to local cultures, and indeed does, but there is huge pressure being placed on it by Islamists. Traditionally there is, or was, a strong contrast between the way Islam is observed in, say, Malaysia, as opposed to the Arab states.
V S Naipaul was quick off the mark to spot these developments. See "Among the Believers" (1981) and "Beyond Belief" (1998). It's been a long time coming.
Also mamy countries like Iran have gone backwards in terms of muslim extremism the last 30 to 40 years.
As for white british people becoming a minority in big cities it becomes a big problem when you start to deal with local councils which in many cases have been taken over by muslims.
Ok Moray, here's a hint: you're going to have to master capitalising the words correctly if you want us to believe you are not a Russian troll. Just trying to help there.
Mass migration has been a calculated Cult plan playing out across the world from Europe to the US southern border. It is about demographic and cultural change to unravel western society and to trigger conflict on the streets as we are seeing in Dublin tonight. The outrage at the children is understandable, but burning your own city will change nothing. Jailing the politicians and funders responsible for systematically opening the gates across Europe and the US and throwing away the key would be far more productive with those in Sweden at the front of the queue. Happy now, Mr Soros? Got want you wanted? Thought so.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
I've not followed this - is this guy anti-EU? I recall around the time of the referendum that Netherlands were possible candidates to follow us out.
Yes, in theory he wants to take Holland out of the EU.
Won't happen though, any more than Le Pen will take France out. Wilders doesn't have the clear majority he'd need and they're in the Euro which makes it ten times more difficult and expensive.
He'd need to persuade the public first. They aren't up for leaving the EU atm. Course that could change if the country goes all 'Holland first, make the Dutch great again'.
The last Netherlands poll was a few years back, but 75% Remain, 25% leave.
PVV did get the largest vote share, but only 23.5%, so hardly a majority.
PVV polling nearly doubled over the last 6 weeks, a reaction to pro-Palestine protests perhaps.
Mass migration has been a calculated Cult plan playing out across the world from Europe to the US southern border. It is about demographic and cultural change to unravel western society and to trigger conflict on the streets as we are seeing in Dublin tonight. The outrage at the children is understandable, but burning your own city will change nothing. Jailing the politicians and funders responsible for systematically opening the gates across Europe and the US and throwing away the key would be far more productive with those in Sweden at the front of the queue. Happy now, Mr Soros? Got want you wanted? Thought so.
Mass migration has been a calculated Cult plan playing out across the world from Europe to the US southern border. It is about demographic and cultural change to unravel western society and to trigger conflict on the streets as we are seeing in Dublin tonight. The outrage at the children is understandable, but burning your own city will change nothing. Jailing the politicians and funders responsible for systematically opening the gates across Europe and the US and throwing away the key would be far more productive with those in Sweden at the front of the queue. Happy now, Mr Soros? Got want you wanted? Thought so.
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
What?
If you are, say, a disaffected young black man from Lewisham - aggrieved at the perceived injustice of white society - then you will look for a belief system that empowers and embodies your anger. That role used to be fulfilled by radical left wing thought - eg the Black Panthers
However, left wing thought has largely collapsed as a coherent ideology, or it has folded itself into the worldwide creed of Islam. This is an ancient global religion which is seen as opposed to the West, as powerful in itself, and- not least- gives young men a self respect and a sense of deep superiority over women and non believers = Kaffirs
Suddenly you are not the abject descendant of slaves you are a member of the chosen, A devout Muslim.
I can absolutely see why this appeals to angry black men - and indeed angry white men. And all else being equal I would say good luck to them, Islam is a noble religion, at its best, and surely offers a happier, more meaningful life than base materialism on the lower rungs of capitalist society. Cf Muhammad Ali
The trouble is many are attracted to the more extreme forms of Islam which require violent attack on westerners and the West
A takeaway from the BBC documentary Hometown (which is about Huddersfield and I linked to it earlier) was that the presenter, himself a British Muslim from the town, found that the warped interpretation of Islam that the those he investigated held was that they retained their religiosity, despite dealing drugs (and carrying knives), if their customers were non-Muslims. Extend this to the grooming gangs.
A noteable thing about Islam is how it has changed in many countries due, for instance, to the influence of Saudi-backed wahhabism. There's no reason Islam can't accommodate itself to local cultures, and indeed does, but there is huge pressure being placed on it by Islamists. Traditionally there is, or was, a strong contrast between the way Islam is observed in, say, Malaysia, as opposed to the Arab states.
V S Naipaul was quick off the mark to spot these developments. See "Among the Believers" (1981) and "Beyond Belief" (1998). It's been a long time coming.
It’s working both ways in the Arab states, as many of them know that they need to bring in tourists before the oil runs out.
I’m currently sitting in a restaurant on a beach, with a glass of wine and admiring the view.
Mass migration has been a calculated Cult plan playing out across the world from Europe to the US southern border. It is about demographic and cultural change to unravel western society and to trigger conflict on the streets as we are seeing in Dublin tonight. The outrage at the children is understandable, but burning your own city will change nothing. Jailing the politicians and funders responsible for systematically opening the gates across Europe and the US and throwing away the key would be far more productive with those in Sweden at the front of the queue. Happy now, Mr Soros? Got want you wanted? Thought so.
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
Why mention the Caribbean?
Because Anthony Small's parents came from Jamaica IIRC.
What?
You said this, when talking about the 7/7 bombers et al:
"They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate"
I said that Anthony Small was likewise a descendant of immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited, coming as they did from Jamaica, but this doesn't correlate with those descendants' ability to assimilate, nor with their radicalisation. They are Brits and have been radicalised.
As for Powell's (and your?) point about descendants of immigrants struggling to assimilate I would disagree with that very strongly. Just look around you. Unless you base it on the colour of their skin only.
Sorry, is what your point that, because not all of the 1960s immigrants and their descendants turned out to be perpetrators of terrorism or industrial scale rapes motivated by religion/sectarianism, it’s not worth worrying about? Or that these crimes would have been committed anyway by white British people?
I’d say the Islamic immigrants have struggled to assimilate, and that BLM shows that black immigration has had its problems too, else there’d be no BLM
This really is like talking each brick in a massive wall
Would 7/7, the murder of Lee Rigby or the mass rape of northern girls by Asian taxi drivers in the North have happened without mass immigration and the lack of assimilation that followed?
The answer is no
The question is, ‘Is it a price worth paying?’, most people on here seem to think ‘Yes’
My brother in law is an immigrant and a neonatal paediatrician who goes to work to save the lives of tiny babies every day. So you can put that in the plus column.
Think of all the great leaders immigration has brought us too: Rishi Sunak, Humza Yousaf, Suella Braverman, Boris Johnson, King Charles... hmmm, maybe I need to work on this line of argument. Let's go back to your brother-in-law.
Don’t forget me!
Cognisant of your legendary modesty, we wanted to spare your blushes.
As for white british people becoming a minority in big cities it becomes a big problem when you start to deal with local councils which in many cases have been taken over by muslims.
1) If a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic Of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
BREAKING: Zelensky of Ukraine is believed to have photographs of Hunter Biden that could bring down the Democratic Party in the US & has been using them to blackmail Biden who is completely compromised. Source: Rudy Giuliani
""Happy Thanksgiving to ALL, including the Racist & Incompetent Attorney General of New York State, Letitia 'Peekaboo' James, who has let Murder & Violent Crime FLOURISH, & Businesses FLEE; the Radical Left Trump Hating Judge, a 'Psycho,' Arthur Engoron, who Criminally Defrauded the State of New York, & ME, by purposely Valuing my Assets at a 'tiny' Fraction of what they are really worth in order to convict me of Fraud before even a Trial, or seeing any PROOF, & used his Politically Biased & Corrupt Campaign Finance Violator, Chief Clerk Alison Greenfield, to sit by his side on the 'Bench' & tell him what to do; & Crooked Joe Biden, who has WEAPONIZED his Department of Injustice against his Political Opponent, & allowed our Country to go to HELL; & all of the other Radical Left Lunatics, Communists, Fascists, Marxists, Democrats, & RINOS, who are seriously looking to DESTROY OUR COUNTRY. Have no fear, however, we will WIN the Presidential Election of 2024, & MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!"
"British complacency over defence has to end: The army is remote to most of us and investing in security is deemed unethical — but we need to wise up to new threats", William Hague, 20Nov2023, The Times, see https://archive.is/fZiNV
""Happy Thanksgiving to ALL, including the Racist & Incompetent Attorney General of New York State, Letitia 'Peekaboo' James, who has let Murder & Violent Crime FLOURISH, & Businesses FLEE; the Radical Left Trump Hating Judge, a 'Psycho,' Arthur Engoron, who Criminally Defrauded the State of New York, & ME, by purposely Valuing my Assets at a 'tiny' Fraction of what they are really worth in order to convict me of Fraud before even a Trial, or seeing any PROOF, & used his Politically Biased & Corrupt Campaign Finance Violator, Chief Clerk Alison Greenfield, to sit by his side on the 'Bench' & tell him what to do; & Crooked Joe Biden, who has WEAPONIZED his Department of Injustice against his Political Opponent, & allowed our Country to go to HELL; & all of the other Radical Left Lunatics, Communists, Fascists, Marxists, Democrats, & RINOS, who are seriously looking to DESTROY OUR COUNTRY. Have no fear, however, we will WIN the Presidential Election of 2024, & MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!"
BREAKING: Zelensky of Ukraine is believed to have photographs of Hunter Biden that could bring down the Democratic Party in the US & has been using them to blackmail Biden who is completely compromised. Source: Rudy Giuliani
Could last less than an hour this one.
Pathetic attempt. Surely PB warrants better than that?
BREAKING: Zelensky of Ukraine is believed to have photographs of Hunter Biden that could bring down the Democratic Party in the US & has been using them to blackmail Biden who is completely compromised. Source: Rudy Giuliani
Ah yes, that beacon of truth that is Rudy Giuliani.
BREAKING: Zelensky of Ukraine is believed to have photographs of Hunter Biden that could bring down the Democratic Party in the US & has been using them to blackmail Biden who is completely compromised. Source: Rudy Giuliani
That was quite inspired until the last sentence. Giuliani is not a valid source for anything I'm afraid. Good try though.
"Geert Wilders @geertwilderspvv So it’s news that we won the Dutch elections. Get used to it. Many more European countries will follow. Freedom and patriotism - our own nations and people first - is the new political reality. "
I've not followed this - is this guy anti-EU? I recall around the time of the referendum that Netherlands were possible candidates to follow us out.
Yes, in theory he wants to take Holland out of the EU.
Won't happen though, any more than Le Pen will take France out. Wilders doesn't have the clear majority he'd need and they're in the Euro which makes it ten times more difficult and expensive.
He'd need to persuade the public first. They aren't up for leaving the EU atm. Course that could change if the country goes all 'Holland first, make the Dutch great again'.
The last Netherlands poll was a few years back, but 75% Remain, 25% leave.
PVV did get the largest vote share, but only 23.5%, so hardly a majority.
PVV polling nearly doubled over the last 6 weeks, a reaction to pro-Palestine protests perhaps.
Yes, the Palestine demos pissing people off, I heard that theory also from Leon, who says isn't talking to me anymore
Protesters will be told to "bin any placard or sign that might break these rules".
I wonder if I went around London with a die hard with a vengeance style sandwich board if the police would just politely ask me to bin it?
And they also appear to have deemed calls for Jihad and Interfada to not fall foul of the above categorisations.
If you read the article, chants of "jihad" are mentioned as a no-no. I did not want to paste the whole thing.
"though he also said context was important."
They are still giving themselves wiggle room.
The police have said for some time that the government needs to strengthen the law. See also my other post about Hizb-Ut-Tahrir which both Labour and Conservative governments pledged to ban but never quite got round to it.
It’s not about being “far right”, these latest numbers are an astonishing number for any western democracy outside wartime.
I think the argument is still stuck inside the prison of ten or twenty years ago.
But these figures suggest very profound societal change within only a few years.
While the public has also experienced the biggest drop in living standards.
I believe the projection is that these numbers will fall. But my cursory sweep of Twitter is that both left and right are just rehashing stale arguments pro and anti immigration in the abstract.
Well this is the thing that happened with Enoch Powell; he predicted profound societal change was inevitable due to a large increase in immigration, and that change/those numbers happened. But people who rubbished him at the time over the numbers and their effects changed the argument rather than admit he was correct.
That’s what will happen in the future you envisage; People won’t focus on the numbers, but say that the profound societal change is a benefit.
What profound societal change have we witnessed since Enoch made his dire prophecy? I'm genuinely interested to hear views on this.
White British people being a minority in London seems a good place to start. Unthinkable in the 1960s
Tell people in Delhi that brown skinned Indians will be a minority in 50 years time and see if they think of that as a profound societal change or not
I don't think it is.
Powell was predicting violence, rivers of blood etc - instead we've had a peaceful transition from one irrelevant characteristic to another irrelevant characteristic.
Someone's skin colour means no more than their hair colour or anything else. Is going from a town of gingers to a town of brunettes a profound societal change?
We’ve had 100,000+ underage white girls raped, trafficked and tortured by “Asian grooming gangs”
Does that count as violence or not?
7/7 Lee Rigby London Bridge
The 7/7 bombers were British, weren't they? Same Lee Rigby and probably the same London Bridge. They were in each instance criminals and, I'd say, terrorists, as defined by seeking to effect political change via acts of violence towards the "civilian" population.
I used to go to a boxing gym in SE London which a lot of West Indian Muslim converts went to. Including, for example, Anthony Small - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Small. Anthony was born in Lewisham. He could as easily have perpetrated any of the incidents you described.
It is the criminals that are the issue (same with the "Asian" grooming gangs). People can be criminal whether they come from Lewisham, Lewes, or Lesotho. There are hundreds of thousands of people from Lewisham, as an example, who are not criminals or violent extremists. Should we somehow ban those people from taking the tube to Oxford Circus?
It is the fact that people are criminals that is the issue not where they are from. Being from Lewisham or Lahore doesn't inherently mean you are a criminal. Oh but there is a culture in eg Pakistan wrt girls. No there isn't there is a culture within criminals of such things.
The issue arises if people come from a culture, a violent repressive state, say an Islamic theocracy, who want to continue the behaviours of that state. In that case we have to rely on the rule of law here to prevent them from indulging in those behaviours. I think you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say ok no more immigration from those countries.
They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate
But why would someone whose parents are, say, from the Caribbean be taken with Salafism. There is nothing inherent in anyone from the Caribbean such that they would want to convert to Islam. Nor blow up the tube.
Why mention the Caribbean?
Because Anthony Small's parents came from Jamaica IIRC.
What?
You said this, when talking about the 7/7 bombers et al:
"They were the descendants of the immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited. Powell’s argument was almost completely centred on the fact that the dependents of the immigrants would struggle to assimilate"
I said that Anthony Small was likewise a descendant of immigrants whose numbers Powell wanted to be limited, coming as they did from Jamaica, but this doesn't correlate with those descendants' ability to assimilate, nor with their radicalisation. They are Brits and have been radicalised.
As for Powell's (and your?) point about descendants of immigrants struggling to assimilate I would disagree with that very strongly. Just look around you. Unless you base it on the colour of their skin only.
Sorry, is what your point that, because not all of the 1960s immigrants and their descendants turned out to be perpetrators of terrorism or industrial scale rapes motivated by religion/sectarianism, it’s not worth worrying about? Or that these crimes would have been committed anyway by white British people?
I’d say the Islamic immigrants have struggled to assimilate, and that BLM shows that black immigration has had its problems too, else there’d be no BLM
This really is like talking each brick in a massive wall
Would 7/7, the murder of Lee Rigby or the mass rape of northern girls by Asian taxi drivers in the North have happened without mass immigration and the lack of assimilation that followed?
The answer is no
The question is, ‘Is it a price worth paying?’, most people on here seem to think ‘Yes’
My brother in law is an immigrant and a neonatal paediatrician who goes to work to save the lives of tiny babies every day. So you can put that in the plus column.
Think of all the great leaders immigration has brought us too: Rishi Sunak, Humza Yousaf, Suella Braverman, Boris Johnson, King Charles... hmmm, maybe I need to work on this line of argument. Let's go back to your brother-in-law.
Don’t forget me!
Cognisant of your legendary modesty, we wanted to spare your blushes.
I think it's disappointing that British industry hasn't come up with a way to capture the energy given off by such a radiant source. Fuelled by endless pineapple pizzas and insulated from the ground by elaborate shoes, the energy available is amazing!
As for white british people becoming a minority in big cities it becomes a big problem when you start to deal with local councils which in many cases have been taken over by muslims.
Ok Moray, here's a hint: you're going to have to master capitalising the words correctly if you want us to believe you are not a Russian troll. Just trying to help there.
Paranoia is never a good trait to have.
It depends - I used to work with a chap who was convinced that he had spent years of his life as a potential victim to a large, well organised gang of killers.
Comments
AFAICS that is a repousse ("chasing") hammer, which has a wide, slightly domed end for forming metal sheets or wire without creating edges.
And a narrow domed end for creating a hammered texture.
So when they want to use a narrow die, they use the flat side. Using the domed face for that would wreck the tool.
I suspect an Indian Gent from a fairly wealthy family knows more about jewellery than a collection of UK tabloid press median morons ever will, since gold is how they traditionally store much wealth.
They could have checked 30s of video:
https://youtu.be/SH8D4d9naGg?t=9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Miliband_bacon_sandwich_photograph
I reckon someone wanted him to look like a normal working class guy eating a bacon sarnie.
Sir Keir was a toolmaker's son
And when magic grandpa fell, he come along
Blairites gathered 'round and started talkin'
That's when his promises went a-walkin'
Out from left to right they went walkin'
Then he'd look into my eyes
Lord knows, to my surprise
The only one who could ever fool me
Was the son of a toolmaker
The only boy who could ever fool me
Was the son of a toolmaker
Yes, he was, he was, ooh, yes, he was
The words of the great Alexei Sayle seem apposite here:
"Anybody that uses the word "workshop" who isn't involved in light engineering is a c**t..."
* Or Mossad/Hamas/Q/AI/Aliens/Wokerati/Anti-Wokerati as preferred
Including the PVV in a right wing coalition would not give them anything close to a majority, but would tie them into government decisions.
No, I think it was about not wanting to appear like a middle-class North Londoner. Same with the kitchenette debacle.
Is Wilders coalitionable, bearing in mind his shilling for Putin?
No question however, Europe is in a very bad place.
https://x.com/labourpress/status/1728089153110208917?s=20
If you **** up, apologise properly. Like a grown up. Especially if you want to run the country...
He said that the immigrant community wouldn’t be evenly spread from Penzance to Aberdeen, but there’d be clusters where practically only immigrants and their descendants lived, and that’s true too
He extrapolated that there would be acts of
violence that could only be described as civil war,
and 7/7, Lee Rigby & the Rotherham rapes seem to be examples of that to me. Not that immigrants are predisposed to be criminals, but that these crimes only took place because of the inevitable clash of cultures enabled by mass immigration
I really didn’t think I’d need to say this, as PB seems quite an intelligent place, but the fact I see those three things as true doesn’t mean i dislike immigrants, or people who have different colour skin from me; far from it. I take it as an inevitable part of the modern world, but it doesn’t mean I have to pretend that what was said by Enoch Powell, (before my time, & I only read it in 2011) doesn’t ring true.
See also using a contactless card: https://metro.co.uk/2022/08/10/rishi-sunak-was-taught-how-to-use-a-contactless-card-17159690/
Which could be a mistake as he'll lose the chance of looking fitter and more alert than Biden.
But yes, apologies can be hard to make appear sincere. As I've shown on here once or twice...
Were you, by any chance, an academic?
It is a chasing hammer - one end is a wide dome for flattening metal sheets and wire without hammer-edge marks. The other end is a narrow dome for texturing.
So when you want to hammer *something* - like a die - and don't want to swap hammers, you use the flat side.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/02/nigel-farage-shows-ed-miliband-how-to-eat-a-bacon-sandwich
What a man!
Still, he'll need that training over the next few weeks, I guess.
Won't happen though, any more than Le Pen will take France out. Wilders doesn't have the clear majority he'd need and they're in the Euro which makes it ten times more difficult and expensive.
(*Or should that be 'sorry if you have been upset by my reply'? ;-))
And I know a couple of jewellers.
There is a special kind of beauty at play here. To be this absent from the real world is a special gift.
https://x.com/spajw/status/1728066022433853816?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
Double use of ‘special’ too. Nasty
No one is going to shut down Dutch democracy.
V S Naipaul was quick off the mark to spot these developments. See "Among the Believers" (1981) and "Beyond Belief" (1998). It's been a long time coming.
He still hasn't had a criminal indictment for fraud in New York for example - it is currently a civil case.
But the charges laid all have criminal equivalents (I am told), so if the evidence is strong enough to win on the balance of probabilities (and we already have summary 'proven' findings on just findings of fact for two of the charges) the DA can come back later (if the Governor gives permission) with similar criminal charges for the stronger beyond reasonable doubt standard. I have not checked but I expect these could carry jail time.
Which reached a peak when Teddy keeled over - the random member of the Kennedy clan they tried first, actually bowed out. Because *she* said that she wasn’t up to it.
Hizb ut-Tahrir's status has been a subject of political controversy for decades.
Former prime ministers Tony Blair and David Cameron both promised to ban the group, whose stated aim is the re-establishment of an Islamic caliphate, before abandoning the proposals
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67517410
Why the actual fuck we allow this stuff in British Prisons is beyond me.
The leaflets warn protestors not to use words of images:
- that are racist or incite hatred against any faith
- that support Hamas or any other banned organisation, it is illegal under UK law to support such terrorist organisations
- that celebrate or promote acts of terrorism - such as the killing or kidnap of innocent people
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67517410I wonder if I went around London with a die hard with a vengeance style sandwich board if the police would just politely ask me to bin it?
And they also appear to have deemed calls for Jihad and Interfada to not fall foul of the above categorisations.
Mass migration has been a calculated Cult plan playing out across the world from Europe to the US southern border. It is about demographic and cultural change to unravel western society and to trigger conflict on the streets as we are seeing in Dublin tonight. The outrage at the children is understandable, but burning your own city will change nothing. Jailing the politicians and funders responsible for systematically opening the gates across Europe and the US and throwing away the key would be far more productive with those in Sweden at the front of the queue. Happy now, Mr Soros? Got want you wanted? Thought so.
https://x.com/davidicke/status/1727798932208525680?s=20
PVV did get the largest vote share, but only 23.5%, so hardly a majority.
PVV polling nearly doubled over the last 6 weeks, a reaction to pro-Palestine protests perhaps.
I’m currently sitting in a restaurant on a beach, with a glass of wine and admiring the view.
Morning Joe admits Ukraine has lost the war against Russia. Public humiliation is here now. Public surrender is getting close.
https://x.com/ShadowofEzra/status/1726622797118804153?s=20
They are still giving themselves wiggle room.
""Happy Thanksgiving to ALL, including the Racist & Incompetent Attorney General of New York State, Letitia 'Peekaboo' James, who has let Murder & Violent Crime FLOURISH, & Businesses FLEE; the Radical Left Trump Hating Judge, a 'Psycho,' Arthur Engoron, who Criminally Defrauded the State of New York, & ME, by purposely Valuing my Assets at a 'tiny' Fraction of what they are really worth in order to convict me of Fraud before even a Trial, or seeing any PROOF, & used his Politically Biased & Corrupt Campaign Finance Violator, Chief Clerk Alison Greenfield, to sit by his side on the 'Bench' & tell him what to do; & Crooked Joe Biden, who has WEAPONIZED his Department of Injustice against his Political Opponent, & allowed our Country to go to HELL; & all of the other Radical Left Lunatics, Communists, Fascists, Marxists, Democrats, & RINOS, who are seriously looking to DESTROY OUR COUNTRY. Have no fear, however, we will WIN the Presidential Election of 2024, & MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!"
The man is a caricature of himself.
Is it some initiation routine, get the newbie to try their BS on PB and they all laugh at them when they get their arse handed to them?
Pathetic attempt. Surely PB warrants better than that?
He’d served in the Army in Northern Ireland.
Maybe not you, Prime Minister.