Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Why I now think an early election is likely – politicalbetting.com

1356

Comments

  • RobD said:

    Icarus said:

    The immigration numbers are made up. There may be a chance of recording inward immigration -though am not sure how they differentiate between tourists and immigrants. However emigrants are only recorded by asking people in airports to fill in a survey. Both my children have emigrated -to Australia and Spain, my late brother lived in Budapest but was "resident" in the UK despite not having visited for 5 years. None are recorded as leaving the UK.

    Think of it like an opinion poll. Sample enough people and you get a reasonable idea what fraction of people are going on holiday vs emigrating. You don’t need to ask everyone.
    Yes it's a survey not a census.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Friend's uncle died recently. Sepsis. Had been bedridden for ages, in and out of hospital. It was missed by all the doctors in hospital. The only surprise would be if anyone was surprised that you can go into an NHS hospital with a reasonable chance of never getting out of it.

    What was that Times front page the other day about the NHS being "toxic". It was literally toxic in the case of my mate's uncle. And many thousands of other cases also.

    The Sun has just published this surprisingly detailed account of Sepsis research.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/health/24832896/sepsis-death-are-you-at-risk/
    How can people with learning disabilities be more at risk, physiologically? In terms of not being able to communicate symptoms I get it but how otherwise?
    You might need to ask Foxy or possibly Turbotubbs. My guess would be that people with learning disabilities are less likely to be able to follow complicated treatment instructions, or are more likely to have comorbidities (other health problems) but that is only guesswork.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    ICUMI, from the Guardian on the obvious topic of playing the piano for the benefit of elephants:

    Their breathing actually slows down when you play, which tells me they are relaxed and happy. There was one elephant that would walk away if I played Schubert, but stayed for hours for Beethoven

    showing that elephants are much brighter than UK teenagers but that there is still room for improvement. I knew a cat, now gone to his rest, for whom happiness was an electric radiator and Schubert's B flat sonata.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Icarus said:

    RobD said:

    Icarus said:

    The immigration numbers are made up. There may be a chance of recording inward immigration -though am not sure how they differentiate between tourists and immigrants. However emigrants are only recorded by asking people in airports to fill in a survey. Both my children have emigrated -to Australia and Spain, my late brother lived in Budapest but was "resident" in the UK despite not having visited for 5 years. None are recorded as leaving the UK.

    Think of it like an opinion poll. Sample enough people and you get a reasonable idea what fraction of people are going on holiday vs emigrating. You don’t need to ask everyone.
    My son didn't know that he was emigrating when he went to Australia!! Had he been asked would have said going on holiday.
    I took a six-month assignment abroad, 17 years ago. Only been back to the UK for about 18 months since then.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Today's Post Office inquiry proceedings have just started.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKnRyb4_qYk
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Either you mention race, or you don’t. Either it is significant, or it isn’t

    This paper twisted the news - deliberately - so that the hero’s race was deemed important - Brazilian, yay! - and yet the villain’s race - Algerian, yikes - had to be hidden

    Just report the damn news
    It's no scandal (indeed it's the opposite of one) for a media outlet to be sensitive to provoking racial violence in their output. There's no such thing as THE news let alone the 'damn' news. Every story in every medium is influenced by decisions taken as to what to include, exclude, highlight, not highlight. You know this.
    Oh do shut up
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    Icarus said:

    RobD said:

    Icarus said:

    The immigration numbers are made up. There may be a chance of recording inward immigration -though am not sure how they differentiate between tourists and immigrants. However emigrants are only recorded by asking people in airports to fill in a survey. Both my children have emigrated -to Australia and Spain, my late brother lived in Budapest but was "resident" in the UK despite not having visited for 5 years. None are recorded as leaving the UK.

    Think of it like an opinion poll. Sample enough people and you get a reasonable idea what fraction of people are going on holiday vs emigrating. You don’t need to ask everyone.
    My son didn't know that he was emigrating when he went to Australia!! Had he been asked would have said going on holiday.
    That one anecdote doesn’t invalidate all immigration statistics. The majority of people know whether they are leaving for a holiday or an extended period of time.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems - Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    If "he is a “naturalised Irish citizen" then he's Irish, surely? Crime reports rarely state the ethnic group of the suspect if the identity is known and they have been detained - that's ony given in the case that the suspect is unknown/at large, to help with capture. Otherwise most crime reports in the UK would state "the white man..."

    I'd also point out that Algerian is a nationality, not an ethnic group (or race). Whether he is still Algerian, if he ever was, depends on his own preferences anc both country's dual-nationality laws, presumably.

    If you're going to go in this direction, then it at least makes more sense to go after the possible religious aspect, as more relevant than ethnic group or nationality. You're not normally averse to Islam-bashing.

    In this case - and others, I'd be inclined to await news on all this and the presumed motive from people with the knowledge to judge, rather than speculate.

    ETA: An early BBC report stated that it wasn't thought to be terror related, but - again - I'd wait for the facts to come out.
  • HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    On the other hand: events, dear boy

    Looking at the violence in Dublin last night, and the “election” of Wilders, it’s hard not to think Europe is heading for some major crisis centred on migration and culture wars and terror and all that jazz

    It’s very cynical, but the Tories might calculate that the longer they wait the greater the chance some catastrophic black swan will break the arm of history - and give them a fighting chance

    Yes, the Tories should run an election on their record on immigration...

    @EdConwaySky
    Hard to put into words just how enormous the recent flows of migration into UK are, so this chart 👇 is prob a better place to start.
    This country has NEVER seen net migration as high as this.
    Look at the population-adjusted figures going back to 1850.
    It’s totally unprecedented.




    @PickardJE
    it is objectively quite funny that the biggest surge in immigration in British history came *after* Brexit
    I am not desperate to go down this road once again but does it ever cross your mind that with freedom of movement we simply had no idea how many people were coming here, not even to the nearest million, and what we are now seeing is the underlying picture being exposed with slightly better statistics?
    As the three countries of origin which dominate the list for the most recent figures are India, Nigeria and China, it does not.
    But the millions of east Europeans that came here during freedom of movement has slowed markedly creating demand for other sources.
    There is only one reliable way of cutting immigration, and that is to raise the retirement age. An ever increasing number of non-working pensioners with high disposable incomes demanding labour intensive services creates an insatiable demand for working age labour. High immigration and high numbers of pensioners are two sides of the same coin.
    Tax wealth not work.
    Part of the solution, but in the next 20 years we are going to see the number of over 65s rise from 13mn to 18mn. Immigration is only going one way. There really are only two solutions - immigration or more over 65s working. If you have an ever increasing % of your population out of the labour force, you are going to create ever stronger pressure on the labour force to grow from some other source. It's not rocket science.
    Given that both life expectancy and healthy life expectancy have increased significantly post war, I see no
    reason why we should not be expecting people to work
    longer in old age. The
    retirement age in Norway has been 67 for decades.
    Life expectancy growth in the UK is slowing

    "UK life expectancy growing at slower rate than rest of G7, research shows | Life expectancy | The Guardian" https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/16/life-expectancy-in-uk-growing-at-slower-rate-to-comparable-g7-countries
    The point being that when the modern retirement age was introduced at 60/65 just after the war, life expectancy was around 65. It is now 81 and it is only in the last few years we have started to do anything about retirement age.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    edited November 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Note to DuraAce.

    The Lucid Air Sapphire Does 0 To 150 To 0 Four Seconds Quicker Than A 911 Turbo S
    https://www.motor1.com/news/697499/lucid-air-sapphire-acceleration-braking/

    The Tesla Model S Plaid is half a second slower, but also trashes the Porsche.

    That many modern electric cars are much much better at 0-60 than pretty much any ICE is a long established fact. As well as a number of other acceleration tests, in a straight line. It is an artefact of a power train with the capacity for significant regenerative braking, among other things.

    In fact it was a major selling point of the original Tesla Roadster - a sub 4 second car for *only* that much.

    The van drivers in London have discovered this - they love "launching" their electric vans.
  • OT the second world war in just half an hour.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUDYd8LAvD8
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Nigelb said:

    Note to DuraAce.

    The Lucid Air Sapphire Does 0 To 150 To 0 Four Seconds Quicker Than A 911 Turbo S
    https://www.motor1.com/news/697499/lucid-air-sapphire-acceleration-braking/

    The Tesla Model S Plaid is half a second slower, but also trashes the Porsche.

    Acceleration (0 to 60) is a fairly meaningless metrics for a road car; likewise, any top speed above 100 MPH. ;)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited November 2023
    "Lord Blunkett: Immigration system is ‘out of control’

    Blunkett, the former Labour home secretary, said the immigration system was “out of control” as he responded to the new record high in net migration. He said the UK was now in a “different ball park altogether” to the Tories’ original pledge of reducing net migration to the tens of thousands. "

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-suella-migration-farage-jeremy-hunt/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems - Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    If "he is a “naturalised Irish citizen" then he's Irish, surely? Crime reports rarely state the ethnic group of the suspect if the identity is known and they have been detained - that's ony given in the case that the suspect is unknown/at large, to help with capture. Otherwise most crime reports in the UK would state "the white man..."

    I'd also point out that Algerian is a nationality, not an ethnic group (or race). Whether he is still Algerian, if he ever was, depends on his own preferences anc both country's dual-nationality laws, presumably.

    If you're going to go in this direction, then it at least makes more sense to go after the possible religious aspect, as more relevant than ethnic group or nationality. You're not normally averse to Islam-bashing.

    In this case - and others, I'd be inclined to await news on all this and the presumed motive from people with the knowledge to judge, rather than speculate.

    ETA: An early BBC report stated that it wasn't thought to be terror related, but - again - I'd wait for the facts to come out.
    Then why mention the race of the hero? Brazilian?

    That’s my point. Either race is relevant to the story or it isn’t. Either mention it or don’t. Both positions are defensible

    What is not defensible is hiding some awkward ethnic facts and highlighting others to push a painfully obvious agenda - it’s not just wrong it is counter productive
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130
    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    It makes things worse. Can't you see that.
    I don't think racism is fuelled by oversensitive reporting, no. I think it's fuelled by the opposite type of reporting - the sort which plays up to and further incites fear of incomers, eg a million or so Mail and Express stories over the years.

    This here, what the Irish Times has supposedly done, is just not a big problem. Anybody who thinks it is probably has one imo.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    oooooh what’s happening on the Tonle Sap?!?!



    AN ALIEN BOAT HAS LANDED. AND ITS GAY
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    OT the second world war in just half an hour.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUDYd8LAvD8

    I remember when they said WW3 was going to take much less than that. Bob Dylan no less estimated 15 minutes in one of his songs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Its the denial and cover up which leads to distrust in the system.
    Or more prosaically it's racists looking for an excuse to 'race'.
    Possibly.

    But if there's less to 'race' then that reduces the problem to begin with.

    There also happens to have been a newsworthy murder trial involving an immigrant recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/jozef-puska-found-guilty-murdering-ashling-murphy-primary-school-teacher-ireland
    Yes, I saw that case. Is there a point?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited November 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Note to DuraAce.

    The Lucid Air Sapphire Does 0 To 150 To 0 Four Seconds Quicker Than A 911 Turbo S
    https://www.motor1.com/news/697499/lucid-air-sapphire-acceleration-braking/

    The Tesla Model S Plaid is half a second slower, but also trashes the Porsche.

    Acceleration (0 to 60) is a fairly meaningless metrics for a road car; likewise, any top speed above 100 MPH. ;)
    The Lucid also costs nearly £300k, it’s an engineering exercise as much as anything else. But yes, the acceleration is insane, the 911 Turbo has been a staple winner of 0-100-0 challenges for decades, and this thing is way quicker.

    Rich Americans who like drag racing will be buying a few though.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,886
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems - Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    If "he is a “naturalised Irish citizen" then he's Irish, surely? Crime reports rarely state the ethnic group of the suspect if the identity is known and they have been detained - that's ony given in the case that the suspect is unknown/at large, to help with capture. Otherwise most crime reports in the UK would state "the white man..."

    I'd also point out that Algerian is a nationality, not an ethnic group (or race). Whether he is still Algerian, if he ever was, depends on his own preferences anc both country's dual-nationality laws, presumably.

    If you're going to go in this direction, then it at least makes more sense to go after the possible religious aspect, as more relevant than ethnic group or nationality. You're not normally averse to Islam-bashing.

    In this case - and others, I'd be inclined to await news on all this and the presumed motive from people with the knowledge to judge, rather than speculate.

    ETA: An early BBC report stated that it wasn't thought to be terror related, but - again - I'd wait for the facts to come out.
    Then why mention the race of the hero? Brazilian?

    That’s my point. Either race is relevant to the story or it isn’t. Either mention it or don’t. Both positions are defensible

    What is not defensible is hiding some awkward ethnic facts and highlighting others to push a painfully obvious agenda - it’s not just wrong it is counter productive
    Except that Brazilian isn't an ethnicity either.

    Interesting place, with a mix of European, African and Native American heritage.
  • Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems - Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    If "he is a “naturalised Irish citizen" then he's Irish, surely? Crime reports rarely state the ethnic group of the suspect if the identity is known and they have been detained - that's ony given in the case that the suspect is unknown/at large, to help with capture. Otherwise most crime reports in the UK would state "the white man..."

    I'd also point out that Algerian is a nationality, not an ethnic group (or race). Whether he is still Algerian, if he ever was, depends on his own preferences anc both country's dual-nationality laws, presumably.

    If you're going to go in this direction, then it at least makes more sense to go after the possible religious aspect, as more relevant than ethnic group or nationality. You're not normally averse to Islam-bashing.

    In this case - and others, I'd be inclined to await news on all this and the presumed motive from people with the knowledge to judge, rather than speculate.

    ETA: An early BBC report stated that it wasn't thought to be terror related, but - again - I'd wait for the facts to come out.
    Then why mention the race of the hero? Brazilian?

    That’s my point. Either race is relevant to the story or it isn’t. Either mention it or don’t. Both positions are defensible

    What is not defensible is hiding some awkward ethnic facts and highlighting others to push a painfully obvious agenda - it’s not just wrong it is counter productive
    Except that Brazilian isn't an ethnicity either.

    Interesting place, with a mix of European, African and Native American heritage.
    Plenty of Japanese too, largest number outside Japan.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Its the denial and cover up which leads to distrust in the system.
    Or more prosaically it's racists looking for an excuse to 'race'.
    Possibly.

    But if there's less to 'race' then that reduces the problem to begin with.

    There also happens to have been a newsworthy murder trial involving an immigrant recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/jozef-puska-found-guilty-murdering-ashling-murphy-primary-school-teacher-ireland
    Yes, I saw that case. Is there a point?
    I don't think playing stupid on PB is a rewarding or useful tactic.

    The whole wot me I don't get it schtick is wasted on us.

    The narrative, as well you know, is that the old "coming over here taking our jobs" is morphing into "coming over here killing our children". Both toxic and wrong but it is what it is.

    Now, of course, bien pensant, liberal, right-thinking types such as you and me see through the whole thing instantly but sadly not everyone on the planet is as bright as we are.

    Hence the topic for debate.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Andy_JS said:

    "Lord Blunkett: Immigration system is ‘out of control’

    Blunkett, the former Labour home secretary, said the immigration system was “out of control” as he responded to the new record high in net migration. He said the UK was now in a “different ball park altogether” to the Tories’ original pledge of reducing net migration to the tens of thousands. "

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/24/rishi-sunak-latest-news-suella-migration-farage-jeremy-hunt/

    I think asking Lord "Bring Me My Machinegun" Blunkett for advice is a poor choice.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    But your complaint seems to be that they failed to describe an Irish citizen as Algerian. Which it sounds like he isn't.
  • Hamas started firing rockets against Israel
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    edited November 2023

    HYUFD said:

    A 25% voteshare, 5% below the 1997 total, is not a springboard for a May general election.

    Sunak will want more time to narrow the gap and even if he doesn't is unlikely to want to cut 6 months from his premiership unnecessarily

    Until the Autumn Statement I would have agreed with you. But the starting gun has been fired, and we're hearing that the ScotCon election machine is already being resourced.

    The cat is out of the bag, and you can expect the media now to push a May election as the plan. Should Rishi turn frit again and bottle it, you won't get a better result in the autumn, it will be worse.

    The lesson from so many past elections is that an early election is almost always better than a late election...
    The only time a governing party has won a general election after more than 10 consecutive years in power since universal suffrage in 1918 (as Rishi would have to do next year) was 1992.

    Then Major waited for almost the full 5 years after the June 1987 election, only calling the next general election in April 1992
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,783
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Either you mention race, or you don’t. Either it is significant, or it isn’t

    This paper twisted the news - deliberately - so that the hero’s race was deemed important - Brazilian, yay! - and yet the villain’s race - Algerian, yikes - had to be hidden

    Just report the damn news
    It's no scandal (indeed it's the opposite of one) for a media outlet to be sensitive to provoking racial violence in their output. There's no such thing as THE news let alone the 'damn' news. Every story in every medium is influenced by decisions taken as to what to include, exclude, highlight, not highlight. You know this.
    Oh do shut up
    Lol
  • Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Ever heard of Respect? Or the Islamic Party of Great Britain? There is a market out there - especially when Muslims are feeling ignored and watching grim scenes on the TV - but don't get over excited.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Galloway came close to doing this in 2005 with Respect. They won Bethnal Green and got big shares in East Ham, West Ham, B'ham Sparkbrook.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    But your complaint seems to be that they failed to describe an Irish citizen as Algerian. Which it sounds like he isn't.
    Some people struggle with nationality being different to race. Others pretend to....
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Its the denial and cover up which leads to distrust in the system.
    Or more prosaically it's racists looking for an excuse to 'race'.
    Possibly.

    But if there's less to 'race' then that reduces the problem to begin with.

    There also happens to have been a newsworthy murder trial involving an immigrant recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/jozef-puska-found-guilty-murdering-ashling-murphy-primary-school-teacher-ireland
    Yes, I saw that case. Is there a point?
    See Leon's response.

    But here's a question which governments would answer if they're honest.

    How many murders / stabbings / crime generally / social problems / economic dislocation are deemed acceptable for a level of immigration ?
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Its the denial and cover up which leads to distrust in the system.
    Or more prosaically it's racists looking for an excuse to 'race'.
    Possibly.

    But if there's less to 'race' then that reduces the problem to begin with.

    There also happens to have been a newsworthy murder trial involving an immigrant recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/jozef-puska-found-guilty-murdering-ashling-murphy-primary-school-teacher-ireland
    Yes, I saw that case. Is there a point?
    See Leon's response.

    But here's a question which governments would answer if they're honest.

    How many murders / stabbings / crime generally / social problems / economic dislocation are deemed acceptable for a level of immigration ?
    Yes, what we really need is more government spending on answering silly questions. I am a bit unsure why they have cancelled the ministry of silly walks as well.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Have we done this one yet? Apologies if yes.

    Election Maps UK
    @ElectionMapsUK
    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 46% (=)
    CON: 21% (-1)
    LDM: 12% (+1)
    GRN: 7% (=)
    RFM: 8% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @techneUK
    , 22-23 Nov.
    Changes w/ 15-16 Nov.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    O/T

    The latest trick from phone scammers is to give the impression that their calls are coming from another person's phone number. What this means is that blameless people are getting angry phone calls from people accusing them of being responsible for the scam calls.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    edited November 2023

    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Ever heard of Respect? Or the Islamic Party of Great Britain? There is a market out there - especially when Muslims are feeling ignored and watching grim scenes on the TV - but don't get over excited.
    But they never really took off, did they? One was dominated too much by the eccentric Galloway the other was too weird

    That’s why I said “serious” Muslim party. As the Muslim population grows it is quite possible to see a more impactful party forming - something more like Plaid Cymru - who actually win constituencies, regularly, and are influential at lower levels of governance
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Its the denial and cover up which leads to distrust in the system.
    Or more prosaically it's racists looking for an excuse to 'race'.
    Possibly.

    But if there's less to 'race' then that reduces the problem to begin with.

    There also happens to have been a newsworthy murder trial involving an immigrant recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/jozef-puska-found-guilty-murdering-ashling-murphy-primary-school-teacher-ireland
    Yes, I saw that case. Is there a point?
    See Leon's response.

    But here's a question which governments would answer if they're honest.

    How many murders / stabbings / crime generally / social problems / economic dislocation are deemed acceptable for a level of immigration ?
    Immigration is not associated with increased crime, so the question is moot. https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/immigration-and-crime-evidence-for-the-uk-and-other-countries/ has figures.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130

    a

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    What they are doing plays to the "far right rancids" - who use the obfustication as Proof of The Conspiracy.

    Time to get in front of the problem.
    In a country where we have the tabloid press and Home Secretaries forever whipping up anti-immigrant sentiment this thing here counts as a big problem? Really?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    DougSeal said:

    Have we done this one yet? Apologies if yes.

    Election Maps UK
    @ElectionMapsUK
    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 46% (=)
    CON: 21% (-1)
    LDM: 12% (+1)
    GRN: 7% (=)
    RFM: 8% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @techneUK
    , 22-23 Nov.
    Changes w/ 15-16 Nov.

    Tories averaging around 23%. 10% lower than what they got in 1997.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems - Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    If "he is a “naturalised Irish citizen" then he's Irish, surely? Crime reports rarely state the ethnic group of the suspect if the identity is known and they have been detained - that's ony given in the case that the suspect is unknown/at large, to help with capture. Otherwise most crime reports in the UK would state "the white man..."

    I'd also point out that Algerian is a nationality, not an ethnic group (or race). Whether he is still Algerian, if he ever was, depends on his own preferences anc both country's dual-nationality laws, presumably.

    If you're going to go in this direction, then it at least makes more sense to go after the possible religious aspect, as more relevant than ethnic group or nationality. You're not normally averse to Islam-bashing.

    In this case - and others, I'd be inclined to await news on all this and the presumed motive from people with the knowledge to judge, rather than speculate.

    ETA: An early BBC report stated that it wasn't thought to be terror related, but - again - I'd wait for the facts to come out.
    Then why mention the race of the hero? Brazilian?

    That’s my point. Either race is relevant to the story or it isn’t. Either mention it or don’t. Both positions are defensible

    What is not defensible is hiding some awkward ethnic facts and highlighting others to push a painfully obvious agenda - it’s not just wrong it is counter productive
    Yes, fair point on that. It's not hugely relevant there either.

    But the reporters are - as pointed out - on firmer ground with someone happy to be interviewed an give their background than on someone they believe to have been detained.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    On the other hand: events, dear boy

    Looking at the violence in Dublin last night, and the “election” of Wilders, it’s hard not to think Europe is heading for some major crisis centred on migration and culture wars and terror and all that jazz

    It’s very cynical, but the Tories might calculate that the longer they wait the greater the chance some catastrophic black swan will break the arm of history - and give them a fighting chance

    Yes, the Tories should run an election on their record on immigration...

    @EdConwaySky
    Hard to put into words just how enormous the recent flows of migration into UK are, so this chart 👇 is prob a better place to start.
    This country has NEVER seen net migration as high as this.
    Look at the population-adjusted figures going back to 1850.
    It’s totally unprecedented.




    @PickardJE
    it is objectively quite funny that the biggest surge in immigration in British history came *after* Brexit
    I am not desperate to go down this road once again but does it ever cross your mind that with freedom of movement we simply had no idea how many people were coming here, not even to the nearest million, and what we are now seeing is the underlying picture being exposed with slightly better statistics?
    As the three countries of origin which dominate the list for the most recent figures are India, Nigeria and China, it does not.
    But the millions of east Europeans that came here during freedom of movement has slowed markedly creating demand for other sources.
    They know soft marks when they see them David, not so long ago it was 20K, something far far wrong with system. Blair started it and the Tories have accelerated it, anybody and their dog can just arrive here and never need to leave. Big changes needed on our local wasters who get more money for lying in their scratchers than they do working and then the clowns running teh country should implement a real immigration system , maybe similar to what normal countries do. At least then you would know why people are here, mainly doing the jobs that lazy local barstewards will not do as benefits pay better, and not pander to the morons who blame their sloth and uselessness on "them foreignerrs".
    That's a dreadful way to talk about early retirees.
    Lazy gits
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    10 million followers is more than the population of Ireland so a lot of those must be his UFC fans in America and elsewhere, but yes.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    In a few seats, maybe. Something like 6 or 7% of the total UK population is Muslim, and I'd bet that a majority are not likely to shift their vote from the mainstream parties. There will be cases like Bethnal Green or Bradford West where there is a significant enough base who are willing to vote contrary (as with Respect) but in general FPTP makes it difficult to be a significant electoral force.

    I'd also venture that most Muslims in the UK don't particularly define their politics through the lens of their religion.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    A

    Eabhal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    On the other hand: events, dear boy

    Looking at the violence in Dublin last night, and the “election” of Wilders, it’s hard not to think Europe is heading for some major crisis centred on migration and culture wars and terror and all that jazz

    It’s very cynical, but the Tories might calculate that the longer they wait the greater the chance some catastrophic black swan will break the arm of history - and give them a fighting chance

    Yes, the Tories should run an election on their record on immigration...

    @EdConwaySky
    Hard to put into words just how enormous the recent flows of migration into UK are, so this chart 👇 is prob a better place to start.
    This country has NEVER seen net migration as high as this.
    Look at the population-adjusted figures going back to 1850.
    It’s totally unprecedented.




    @PickardJE
    it is objectively quite funny that the biggest surge in immigration in British history came *after* Brexit
    I wonder if the Norman invasion was over 1%?
    I've heard 1-5% of the then population, over a period of years - the initial invasion was 10K or so, but then families and retainers were brought over.
    I remember doing some research on this. The Huguenots were quite large, as was the Windward generation. Meaningful statistics are not available for the Viking or Angels/Jutes invasions but they were presumably significant. But I don't think we have ever seen anything like this.
    The worst was when the bloody Saxons came over. The place has been going to the dogs ever since.
    Be interesting to see what the % figures were for 1914 when 250,000 Belgians turned up in just a few months. I suppose it depends on whther we count all those British troops going the other way as emigrating :)
    Some did, permanently (by government policy in both senses).
    Sadly yes. :(
    Quite. Very early on in the war, they decided not to bring the bodies home but leave them in theatre. I don't recall if this was for logistic or political reasons or simply because they couldn't provide identified bodies in rather too many instances, with the obvious morale effect.
    I haven’t done the Glasgow Central Station tour but a friend who has says the most affecting part was seeing the vault used to store the bodies of the war dead where families would come to identify and/or collect their loved ones. Apart from the poignancy better not to think of the state of bodies transported unrefrigerated for several days. No wonder the government thought better of it,
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Its the denial and cover up which leads to distrust in the system.
    Or more prosaically it's racists looking for an excuse to 'race'.
    Possibly.

    But if there's less to 'race' then that reduces the problem to begin with.

    There also happens to have been a newsworthy murder trial involving an immigrant recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/jozef-puska-found-guilty-murdering-ashling-murphy-primary-school-teacher-ireland
    Yes, I saw that case. Is there a point?
    See Leon's response.

    But here's a question which governments would answer if they're honest.

    How many murders / stabbings / crime generally / social problems / economic dislocation are deemed acceptable for a level of immigration ?
    Immigration is not associated with increased crime, so the question is moot. https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/immigration-and-crime-evidence-for-the-uk-and-other-countries/ has figures.
    Tsk we don't like facts here.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    Just looked at his twitter. He seems to be a bit of an @sshat.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems - Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    If "he is a “naturalised Irish citizen" then he's Irish, surely? Crime reports rarely state the ethnic group of the suspect if the identity is known and they have been detained - that's ony given in the case that the suspect is unknown/at large, to help with capture. Otherwise most crime reports in the UK would state "the white man..."

    I'd also point out that Algerian is a nationality, not an ethnic group (or race). Whether he is still Algerian, if he ever was, depends on his own preferences anc both country's dual-nationality laws, presumably.

    If you're going to go in this direction, then it at least makes more sense to go after the possible religious aspect, as more relevant than ethnic group or nationality. You're not normally averse to Islam-bashing.

    In this case - and others, I'd be inclined to await news on all this and the presumed motive from people with the knowledge to judge, rather than speculate.

    ETA: An early BBC report stated that it wasn't thought to be terror related, but - again - I'd wait for the facts to come out.
    Then why mention the race of the hero? Brazilian?

    That’s my point. Either race is relevant to the story or it isn’t. Either mention it or don’t. Both positions are defensible

    What is not defensible is hiding some awkward ethnic facts and highlighting others to push a painfully obvious agenda - it’s not just wrong it is counter productive
    Yes, fair point on that. It's not hugely relevant there either.

    But the reporters are - as pointed out - on firmer ground with someone happy to be interviewed an give their background than on someone they believe to have been detained.
    The stabber has Irish citizenship. The Deliveroo driver (it appears) has Brazilian citizenship. So, one is Irish and one is Brazilian, and the reporting described the Irish person as Irish and the Brazilian person as Brazilian.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,886
    edited November 2023

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    10 million followers is more than the population of Ireland so a lot of those must be his UFC fans in America and elsewhere, but yes.

    Thinking back, you probably have heard of Conor McGregor but forgotten. He was the loser of that massively-hyped pay-per-view boxing match with Floyd Mayweather five or six years ago. We must have discussed it on PB at the time.
  • TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    "I confess" in Leonspeak = "I am winding you up here"
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    In a few seats, maybe. Something like 6 or 7% of the total UK population is Muslim, and I'd bet that a majority are not likely to shift their vote from the mainstream parties. There will be cases like Bethnal Green or Bradford West where there is a significant enough base who are willing to vote contrary (as with Respect) but in general FPTP makes it difficult to be a significant electoral force.

    I'd also venture that most Muslims in the UK don't particularly define their politics through the lens of their religion.
    The interesting thing about Islam, however, is that it is not just a religion. It is a religion and a political system and a political belief also.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,953
    edited November 2023
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Getting a bit of a race riot envy vibe from some quarters.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Either you mention race, or you don’t. Either it is significant, or it isn’t

    This paper twisted the news - deliberately - so that the hero’s race was deemed important - Brazilian, yay! - and yet the villain’s race - Algerian, yikes - had to be hidden

    Just report the damn news
    It's no scandal (indeed it's the opposite of one) for a media outlet to be sensitive to provoking racial violence in their output. There's no such thing as THE news let alone the 'damn' news. Every story in every medium is influenced by decisions taken as to what to include, exclude, highlight, not highlight. You know this.
    Oh do shut up
    What's bugging you? You want a safe space to chat about race?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    Yes, I am aware the failing is mine!

    I have no interest in or understanding of the UFC world. No more than I do in video gaming and e-sports

    I accept both are massive around the world - but hey, life is short
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    Is he the guy with the garden in Peter Rabbit?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    "I confess" in Leonspeak = "I am winding you up here"
    Yeah probably. My bad.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    Is he the guy with the garden in Peter Rabbit?
    Yep that's him.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    In a few seats, maybe. Something like 6 or 7% of the total UK population is Muslim, and I'd bet that a majority are not likely to shift their vote from the mainstream parties. There will be cases like Bethnal Green or Bradford West where there is a significant enough base who are willing to vote contrary (as with Respect) but in general FPTP makes it difficult to be a significant electoral force.

    I'd also venture that most Muslims in the UK don't particularly define their politics through the lens of their religion.
    Most Muslims in the UK don't particularly define their politics through the lens of their religion, but that won't stop some on PB forever defining them through the lens of their religion.

    https://savanta.com/knowledge-centre/published-polls/muslims-poll-savanta-16-november-2023/ is recent polling on Muslims' voting intentions: Lab 64%, Con 16%, LD 9%, Green 5%, SNP 1%, Reform UK 1%, other 1%.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    Yes, I am aware the failing is mine!

    I have no interest in or understanding of the UFC world. No more than I do in video gaming and e-sports

    I accept both are massive around the world - but hey, life is short
    Conor McGregor, love him or hate him, has transcended the UFC world. His is a very interesting story and there is a good Netflix doc about him.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    TOPPING said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    In a few seats, maybe. Something like 6 or 7% of the total UK population is Muslim, and I'd bet that a majority are not likely to shift their vote from the mainstream parties. There will be cases like Bethnal Green or Bradford West where there is a significant enough base who are willing to vote contrary (as with Respect) but in general FPTP makes it difficult to be a significant electoral force.

    I'd also venture that most Muslims in the UK don't particularly define their politics through the lens of their religion.
    The interesting thing about Islam, however, is that it is not just a religion. It is a religion and a political system and a political belief also.
    Any more or less than any other religion? All religions are internally diverse in beliefs and practices. Beliefs about ultimate truths and how one should live one's life can obviously be expected to impact on one's politics, but how much will vary.
  • Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems - Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    If "he is a “naturalised Irish citizen" then he's Irish, surely? Crime reports rarely state the ethnic group of the suspect if the identity is known and they have been detained - that's ony given in the case that the suspect is unknown/at large, to help with capture. Otherwise most crime reports in the UK would state "the white man..."

    I'd also point out that Algerian is a nationality, not an ethnic group (or race). Whether he is still Algerian, if he ever was, depends on his own preferences anc both country's dual-nationality laws, presumably.

    If you're going to go in this direction, then it at least makes more sense to go after the possible religious aspect, as more relevant than ethnic group or nationality. You're not normally averse to Islam-bashing.

    In this case - and others, I'd be inclined to await news on all this and the presumed motive from people with the knowledge to judge, rather than speculate.

    ETA: An early BBC report stated that it wasn't thought to be terror related, but - again - I'd wait for the facts to come out.
    Then why mention the race of the hero? Brazilian?

    That’s my point. Either race is relevant to the story or it isn’t. Either mention it or don’t. Both positions are defensible

    What is not defensible is hiding some awkward ethnic facts and highlighting others to push a painfully obvious agenda - it’s not just wrong it is counter productive
    Yes, fair point on that. It's not hugely relevant there either.

    But the reporters are - as pointed out - on firmer ground with someone happy to be interviewed an give their background than on someone they believe to have been detained.
    The stabber has Irish citizenship. The Deliveroo driver (it appears) has Brazilian citizenship. So, one is Irish and one is Brazilian, and the reporting described the Irish person as Irish and the Brazilian person as Brazilian.
    To be fair they should really have fast tracked some DNA ancestry tests, to keep the race obsessed happy, rather than just use nationality.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Either you mention race, or you don’t. Either it is significant, or it isn’t

    This paper twisted the news - deliberately - so that the hero’s race was deemed important - Brazilian, yay! - and yet the villain’s race - Algerian, yikes - had to be hidden

    Just report the damn news
    It's no scandal (indeed it's the opposite of one) for a media outlet to be sensitive to provoking racial violence in their output. There's no such thing as THE news let alone the 'damn' news. Every story in every medium is influenced by decisions taken as to what to include, exclude, highlight, not highlight. You know this.
    Oh do shut up
    What's bugging you? You want a safe space to chat about race?
    It’s your utter boringness. Sorry

    You have always been quite boring but you leavened that with the occasional wise remark or even a hint of dry wit

    That seems to have gone and we are left with the residue: scrotum-gratingly predictable Woke pabulum

    Maybe some people appreciate it; and fair enough if so. From now on I shall politely ignore you
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    TOPPING said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    In a few seats, maybe. Something like 6 or 7% of the total UK population is Muslim, and I'd bet that a majority are not likely to shift their vote from the mainstream parties. There will be cases like Bethnal Green or Bradford West where there is a significant enough base who are willing to vote contrary (as with Respect) but in general FPTP makes it difficult to be a significant electoral force.

    I'd also venture that most Muslims in the UK don't particularly define their politics through the lens of their religion.
    The interesting thing about Islam, however, is that it is not just a religion. It is a religion and a political system and a political belief also.
    Any more or less than any other religion? All religions are internally diverse in beliefs and practices. Beliefs about ultimate truths and how one should live one's life can obviously be expected to impact on one's politics, but how much will vary.
    Yes moreso. You are right but Islam is a political system unlike Christianity.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,783
    edited November 2023
    kjh said:

    On a far more important topic I am teaching my dog the 3 card trick using kibble under one of 3 cups which I move around. After two sessions I have got him to tap one cup with his paw to get the treat and have just introduced a second cup with nothing under it. Not moving anything yet.

    This is my priority for today.

    So continuing with the more important topic of the day. Training session 3 for the dog has stalled on 2 cups. He always picks the first cup regardless of where I put the kibble. It appears (according to that survey the other day) he may only have the intelligence of a Brexit voter.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited November 2023
    Sinn Fein has a big lead in the Irish opinion polls atm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Irish_general_election#Opinion_polls
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Its the denial and cover up which leads to distrust in the system.
    Or more prosaically it's racists looking for an excuse to 'race'.
    Possibly.

    But if there's less to 'race' then that reduces the problem to begin with.

    There also happens to have been a newsworthy murder trial involving an immigrant recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/jozef-puska-found-guilty-murdering-ashling-murphy-primary-school-teacher-ireland
    Yes, I saw that case. Is there a point?
    See Leon's response.

    But here's a question which governments would answer if they're honest.

    How many murders / stabbings / crime generally / social problems / economic dislocation are deemed acceptable for a level of immigration ?
    I don't tend to go to Leon's posts for a point. As for your suggested 'question', it's jaundiced and a bit silly with it.

    "We will take 500,000 immigrants next year and with this we expect and have planned for an extra 150 murders, 2,000 rapes, 5,000 stabbings, and 30,000 instances of racial microaggressions."

    C'mon, Richard. Please.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    DougSeal said:

    Have we done this one yet? Apologies if yes.

    Election Maps UK
    @ElectionMapsUK
    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 46% (=)
    CON: 21% (-1)
    LDM: 12% (+1)
    GRN: 7% (=)
    RFM: 8% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @techneUK
    , 22-23 Nov.
    Changes w/ 15-16 Nov.

    Cameron bounce!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    Yes, I am aware the failing is mine!

    I have no interest in or understanding of the UFC world. No more than I do in video gaming and e-sports

    I accept both are massive around the world - but hey, life is short
    Conor McGregor, love him or hate him, has transcended the UFC world. His is a very interesting story and there is a good Netflix doc about him.
    Well I just watched a video of him beating the absolute quintessence of shit out of some opponent, so he can certainty fight. In an entertaining way
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    kinabalu said:

    a

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    What they are doing plays to the "far right rancids" - who use the obfustication as Proof of The Conspiracy.

    Time to get in front of the problem.
    In a country where we have the tabloid press and Home Secretaries forever whipping up anti-immigrant sentiment this thing here counts as a big problem? Really?
    Yes. Alternatively, we can continue we the same strategy that is increasingly a problem, not a solution.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    Just looked at his twitter. He seems to be a bit of an @sshat.
    Good at the fighting mind you
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited November 2023

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Friend's uncle died recently. Sepsis. Had been bedridden for ages, in and out of hospital. It was missed by all the doctors in hospital. The only surprise would be if anyone was surprised that you can go into an NHS hospital with a reasonable chance of never getting out of it.

    What was that Times front page the other day about the NHS being "toxic". It was literally toxic in the case of my mate's uncle. And many thousands of other cases also.

    The Sun has just published this surprisingly detailed account of Sepsis research.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/health/24832896/sepsis-death-are-you-at-risk/
    How can people with learning disabilities be more at risk, physiologically? In terms of not being able to communicate symptoms I get it but how otherwise?
    You might need to ask Foxy or possibly Turbotubbs. My guess would be that people with learning disabilities are less likely to be able to follow complicated treatment instructions, or are more likely to have comorbidities (other health problems) but that is only guesswork.
    Many learning disabilities are associated with other conditions that increase vulnerability - I've not found the original study to check whether they controlled for this, either for comorbidities or sepsis risk controlling for baseline risk of infections in general.

    My research is mostly on people with severe long term conditions and e.g. many neurological conditions are also associated with increased susceptibility to a range of infections. Cerebral palsy, for example, comes - particularly at the more severe ends - with increased likelihood of respiratory illnesses. Many others are similar. It's often an infection that leads to death, rather than the underlying condition directly.

    ETA: And also, likely, your points about communicating symptoms (and some symptoms such as alertness etc being easier missed in those patients) and perhaps also some bias in those treating, even if it's as simple as less interaction between clinicians and patients with learning difficulties making deterioration less obvious.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,138
    edited November 2023
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly

    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    In a few seats, maybe. Something like 6 or 7% of the total UK population is Muslim, and I'd bet that a majority are not likely to shift their vote from the mainstream parties. There will be cases like Bethnal Green or Bradford West where there is a significant enough base who are willing to vote contrary (as with Respect) but in general FPTP makes it difficult to be a significant electoral force.

    I'd also venture that most Muslims in the UK don't particularly define their politics through the lens of their religion.
    I think in general that last statement is true. Perhaps with the exception of certain issues - Palestine perhaps being one, some morality / conscience questions also such as abortion, perhaps stretching to others such as the place of women especially for older generations.

    There's also that hostility probably also drives people back to core values as a kind of refuge, which for parts of the Islamic-background communities will for some be traditional values. I'd say that is the same process as Jewish people looking to Israel.

    It's also notable that Islam does evolve, albeit with imo more difficulty than Christianity or Judaism due to differences (less flexibility) in beliefs around the nature of the Quran vs the Old/New Testaments vs the Old Testament respectively.

    For example there are a number of Islamic Conference (now Islamic Cooperation) countries which no longer embrace the death penalty (ie Sharia evolves as well) and no Islamic Country now imposes the Jizya tax on Jews or Christians. The only places that embrace that practice are those controlled by ISIS and certain Taliban.

    And of course certain political movements / individuals use driving people to extremes as a means of their own self-promotion. No names for OGH's sake.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    Is he the guy with the garden in Peter Rabbit?
    Yep that's him.
    Stars in - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6-YPiqOh_w
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    In a few seats, maybe. Something like 6 or 7% of the total UK population is Muslim, and I'd bet that a majority are not likely to shift their vote from the mainstream parties. There will be cases like Bethnal Green or Bradford West where there is a significant enough base who are willing to vote contrary (as with Respect) but in general FPTP makes it difficult to be a significant electoral force.

    I'd also venture that most Muslims in the UK don't particularly define their politics through the lens of their religion.
    The interesting thing about Islam, however, is that it is not just a religion. It is a religion and a political system and a political belief also.
    Any more or less than any other religion? All religions are internally diverse in beliefs and practices. Beliefs about ultimate truths and how one should live one's life can obviously be expected to impact on one's politics, but how much will vary.
    Yes moreso. You are right but Islam is a political system unlike Christianity.
    Islam and Christianity are different religions, with different political implications, but I don't think that makes your claim correct. Plenty of Christians, from liberation theologians to anti-abortion activists, would disagree that Christianity is not a political system. Certainly, more people in the UK vote based on their Christianity than based on their Muslim beliefs.
  • .
    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    On the other hand: events, dear boy

    Looking at the violence in Dublin last night, and the “election” of Wilders, it’s hard not to think Europe is heading for some major crisis centred on migration and culture wars and terror and all that jazz

    It’s very cynical, but the Tories might calculate that the longer they wait the greater the chance some catastrophic black swan will break the arm of history - and give them a fighting chance

    Yes, the Tories should run an election on their record on immigration...

    @EdConwaySky
    Hard to put into words just how enormous the recent flows of migration into UK are, so this chart 👇 is prob a better place to start.
    This country has NEVER seen net migration as high as this.
    Look at the population-adjusted figures going back to 1850.
    It’s totally unprecedented.




    @PickardJE
    it is objectively quite funny that the biggest surge in immigration in British history came *after* Brexit
    I am not desperate to go down this road once again but does it ever cross your mind that with freedom of movement we simply had no idea how many people were coming here, not even to the nearest million, and what we are now seeing is the underlying picture being exposed with slightly better statistics?
    As the three countries of origin which dominate the list for the most recent figures are India, Nigeria and China, it does not.
    But the millions of east Europeans that came here during freedom of movement has slowed markedly creating demand for other sources.
    They know soft marks when they see them David, not so long ago it was 20K, something far far wrong with system. Blair started it and the Tories have accelerated it, anybody and their dog can just arrive here and never need to leave. Big changes needed on our local wasters who get more money for lying in their scratchers than they do working and then the clowns running teh country should implement a real immigration system , maybe similar to what normal countries do. At least then you would know why people are here, mainly doing the jobs that lazy local barstewards will not do as benefits pay better, and not pander to the morons who blame their sloth and uselessness on "them foreignerrs".
    That's a dreadful way to talk about early retirees.
    Lazy gits
    Oi!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    On a far more important topic I am teaching my dog the 3 card trick using kibble under one of 3 cups which I move around. After two sessions I have got him to tap one cup with his paw to get the treat and have just introduced a second cup with nothing under it. Not moving anything yet.

    This is my priority for today.

    So continuing with the more important topic of the day. Training session 3 for the dog has stalled on 2 cups. He always picks the first cup regardless of where I put the kibble. It appears (according to that survey the other day) he may only have the intelligence of a Brexit voter.
    Harsh. I bet he’s not that dim really.

    He’d win that three cup trick every time if you let him sniff the cups.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,818
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    All of those are good policies individually.

    But the problem is that the Government is still massively increasing taxes by fiscal drag.

    Giving small tax cuts funded by much bigger tax rises, isn't anything to be proud of.

    Still, for the longer term rebalancing of the economy and taxes, I would be OK with another five years of fiscal drag if the next five years saw a further 2% per year cut in National Insurance - though Employers National Insurance needs dealing with too.

    Yes, agree with this. Using fiscal drag to reduce NI is a good policy as it shifts the burden of tax from working people to non-working people. I'd like to see another 2% cut in NI next autumn and to continue until Employees NI is abolished. The fact that income from work attracts a higher rate of tax than income from idleness shows just how awful the nations priorities have been for the past 50 years. This move only addresses a small portion of it.
    Absolutely not, we should be ringfencing NI to fund the JSA, state pension and some healthcare as it was created to do
    On that logic, we should be going back to 1920s policies in all sorts of other ways.
  • ..

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    10 million followers is more than the population of Ireland so a lot of those must be his UFC fans in America and elsewhere, but yes.
    He’s yet another denizen of the AndrewTate-iverse. Should be ignored primarily on matters of taste, he dropped £2.2m on this monstrosity.


  • Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    All of those are good policies individually.

    But the problem is that the Government is still massively increasing taxes by fiscal drag.

    Giving small tax cuts funded by much bigger tax rises, isn't anything to be proud of.

    Still, for the longer term rebalancing of the economy and taxes, I would be OK with another five years of fiscal drag if the next five years saw a further 2% per year cut in National Insurance - though Employers National Insurance needs dealing with too.

    Yes, agree with this. Using fiscal drag to reduce NI is a good policy as it shifts the burden of tax from working people to non-working people. I'd like to see another 2% cut in NI next autumn and to continue until Employees NI is abolished. The fact that income from work attracts a higher rate of tax than income from idleness shows just how awful the nations priorities have been for the past 50 years. This move only addresses a small portion of it.
    Absolutely not, we should be ringfencing NI to fund the JSA, state pension and some healthcare as it was created to do
    On that logic, we should be going back to 1920s policies in all sorts of other ways.
    You think he would disapprove?
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    In a few seats, maybe. Something like 6 or 7% of the total UK population is Muslim, and I'd bet that a majority are not likely to shift their vote from the mainstream parties. There will be cases like Bethnal Green or Bradford West where there is a significant enough base who are willing to vote contrary (as with Respect) but in general FPTP makes it difficult to be a significant electoral force.

    I'd also venture that most Muslims in the UK don't particularly define their politics through the lens of their religion.
    The interesting thing about Islam, however, is that it is not just a religion. It is a religion and a political system and a political belief also.
    Any more or less than any other religion? All religions are internally diverse in beliefs and practices. Beliefs about ultimate truths and how one should live one's life can obviously be expected to impact on one's politics, but how much will vary.
    Yes moreso. You are right but Islam is a political system unlike Christianity.
    Islam and Christianity are different religions, with different political implications, but I don't think that makes your claim correct. Plenty of Christians, from liberation theologians to anti-abortion activists, would disagree that Christianity is not a political system. Certainly, more people in the UK vote based on their Christianity than based on their Muslim beliefs.
    The new speaker of the House in the US sees Christianity as central to the US Constitution.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    Yes, I am aware the failing is mine!

    I have no interest in or understanding of the UFC world. No more than I do in video gaming and e-sports

    I accept both are massive around the world - but hey, life is short
    Conor McGregor, love him or hate him, has transcended the UFC world. His is a very interesting story and there is a good Netflix doc about him.
    Well I just watched a video of him beating the absolute quintessence of shit out of some opponent, so he can certainty fight. In an entertaining way
    The fighting is the least interesting part of him and of late it hasn't gone too well. His "journey" is, meanwhile, very interesting. Modest background, extremely focused on what he wanted from an early age, achieved phenomenal success at one point in fighting, businessman who sold the drinks business he founded for $600m...

    Google any UFC pre-fight press conference to understand why he is showbiz.

    As for this minute, however, he is having a bit of a moment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Nigelb said:

    Note to DuraAce.

    The Lucid Air Sapphire Does 0 To 150 To 0 Four Seconds Quicker Than A 911 Turbo S
    https://www.motor1.com/news/697499/lucid-air-sapphire-acceleration-braking/

    The Tesla Model S Plaid is half a second slower, but also trashes the Porsche.

    Acceleration (0 to 60) is a fairly meaningless metrics for a road car; likewise, any top speed above 100 MPH. ;)
    For most of us, yes.
  • ..

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    10 million followers is more than the population of Ireland so a lot of those must be his UFC fans in America and elsewhere, but yes.
    He’s yet another denizen of the AndrewTate-iverse. Should be ignored primarily on matters of taste, he dropped £2.2m on this monstrosity.


    Thats a nice shirt, but you can get similar in Next for £35.
  • On topic, I think if there is any sign of recovery, however slight, in the coming weeks, sustained into Feb, the government will go for May.

    One little considered factor here is that maybe Sunak wants it over with. I know that doesn’t hugely chime with our impression of politicians as wanting to cling onto office, but consider. Sunak was potentially going to retire when Truss won the contest last year. It was her spectacularly imploding that caused him to step into the breach. He must know now that chances are he’s out of a job in a few months anyway. What is he practically going to do with the extra 5 months?

    I think he already has one eye on his post-premiership, and the interview with Musk was telling. I think he wants to go back to California, and take up a high profile job in the tech world. If that is his plan, is another 5 months of being unpopular in the UK really worth it? He’s done the job, it’s on his CV.
  • Japanese car giant Nissan will build three electric vehicle models at its Sunderland factory as part of a £2bn investment in net zero.

    An electric version of its Qashqai, Britain’s best-selling car last year, and a battery-powered Juke will join the electric Leaf in being built in the North East, the company said.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,263
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    Yes, I am aware the failing is mine!

    I have no interest in or understanding of the UFC world. No more than I do in video gaming and e-sports

    I accept both are massive around the world - but hey, life is short
    Conor McGregor, love him or hate him, has transcended the UFC world. His is a very interesting story and there is a good Netflix doc about him.
    Well I just watched a video of him beating the absolute quintessence of shit out of some opponent, so he can certainty fight. In an entertaining way
    The fighting is the least interesting part of him and of late it hasn't gone too well. His "journey" is, meanwhile, very interesting. Modest background, extremely focused on what he wanted from an early age, achieved phenomenal success at one point in fighting, businessman who sold the drinks business he founded for $600m...

    Google any UFC pre-fight press conference to understand why he is showbiz.

    As for this minute, however, he is having a bit of a moment.
    Wow. That is indeed a heck of a journey

    I shall google…
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,130
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Its the denial and cover up which leads to distrust in the system.
    Or more prosaically it's racists looking for an excuse to 'race'.
    Possibly.

    But if there's less to 'race' then that reduces the problem to begin with.

    There also happens to have been a newsworthy murder trial involving an immigrant recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/jozef-puska-found-guilty-murdering-ashling-murphy-primary-school-teacher-ireland
    Yes, I saw that case. Is there a point?
    I don't think playing stupid on PB is a rewarding or useful tactic.

    The whole wot me I don't get it schtick is wasted on us.

    The narrative, as well you know, is that the old "coming over here taking our jobs" is morphing into "coming over here killing our children". Both toxic and wrong but it is what it is.

    Now, of course, bien pensant, liberal, right-thinking types such as you and me see through the whole thing instantly but sadly not everyone on the planet is as bright as we are.

    Hence the topic for debate.
    Ok. But I wasn't actually doing that. I prefer it when people who are making a point to me make the point to me. I'm not keen on the nudge nudge elliptical style. Life's too short.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,818
    edited November 2023
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Friend's uncle died recently. Sepsis. Had been bedridden for ages, in and out of hospital. It was missed by all the doctors in hospital. The only surprise would be if anyone was surprised that you can go into an NHS hospital with a reasonable chance of never getting out of it.

    What was that Times front page the other day about the NHS being "toxic". It was literally toxic in the case of my mate's uncle. And many thousands of other cases also.

    The Sun has just published this surprisingly detailed account of Sepsis research.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/health/24832896/sepsis-death-are-you-at-risk/
    How can people with learning disabilities be more at risk, physiologically? In terms of not being able to communicate symptoms I get it but how otherwise?
    You might need to ask Foxy or possibly Turbotubbs. My guess would be that people with learning disabilities are less likely to be able to follow complicated treatment instructions, or are more likely to have comorbidities (other health problems) but that is only guesswork.
    Many learning disabilities are associated with other conditions that increase vulnerability - I've not found the original study to check whether they controlled for this, either for comorbidities or sepsis risk controlling for baseline risk of infections in general.

    My research is mostly on people with severe long term conditions and e.g. many neurological conditions are also associated with increased susceptibility to a range of infections. Cerebral palsy, for example, comes - particularly at the more severe ends - with increased likelihood of respiratory illnesses. Many others are similar. It's often an infection that leads to death, rather than the underlying condition directly.

    ETA: And also, likely, your points about communicating symptoms (and some symptoms such as alertness etc being easier missed in those patients) and perhaps also some bias in those treating, even if it's as simple as less interaction between clinicians and patients with learning difficulties making deterioration less obvious.
    I recall many years ago, c. 1985, a study which showed that people in homes for the LD were particularly at risk of hepatitis. The reason I recall it is that it (rseported in my copy of New Sci) considerably interested a chap with whom I was sharing a house as he was a social worker working in just such a home. He took it into work to discuss the possibility of the relevant immunizations, for staff as well as residents. Can't remember if it was over and above the norm for residential homes generally, though presumably it was to be reported in that way.

    But, in any case, I can well believe that many such conditions have multiple effects of which the headline one is only one. Trisomy-21 isn't just about mental ability but about much else. Even the ones that aren't genetic could be similar - one thinks of foetal alcohol syndrome or premature birth with what it might do to the development of the immune system, I expect.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    Yes, I am aware the failing is mine!

    I have no interest in or understanding of the UFC world. No more than I do in video gaming and e-sports

    I accept both are massive around the world - but hey, life is short
    Conor McGregor, love him or hate him, has transcended the UFC world. His is a very interesting story and there is a good Netflix doc about him.
    Well I just watched a video of him beating the absolute quintessence of shit out of some opponent, so he can certainty fight. In an entertaining way
    The fighting is the least interesting part of him and of late it hasn't gone too well. His "journey" is, meanwhile, very interesting. Modest background, extremely focused on what he wanted from an early age, achieved phenomenal success at one point in fighting, businessman who sold the drinks business he founded for $600m...

    Google any UFC pre-fight press conference to understand why he is showbiz.

    As for this minute, however, he is having a bit of a moment.
    He isn't having a bit of a moment...he has a long history of saying and doing nasty stuff (and not just the usual fighting talk nonsense), has close associations with gangsters, and really just a scummy human being....

    he was also massively overrated in UFC, he was useful for them to explode their brand, so they carefully promoted this massaged version, but really he was never best of the best. Powerful left hand, but sub par on the ground, which once exposed as soon as he fought the very best.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    Yeah that's really terrible, being alert to what might trigger far right rancids to whip up race hate.
    Its the denial and cover up which leads to distrust in the system.
    Or more prosaically it's racists looking for an excuse to 'race'.
    Possibly.

    But if there's less to 'race' then that reduces the problem to begin with.

    There also happens to have been a newsworthy murder trial involving an immigrant recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/jozef-puska-found-guilty-murdering-ashling-murphy-primary-school-teacher-ireland
    Yes, I saw that case. Is there a point?
    See Leon's response.

    But here's a question which governments would answer if they're honest.

    How many murders / stabbings / crime generally / social problems / economic dislocation are deemed acceptable for a level of immigration ?
    I don't tend to go to Leon's posts for a point. As for your suggested 'question', it's jaundiced and a bit silly with it.

    "We will take 500,000 immigrants next year and with this we expect and have planned for an extra 150 murders, 2,000 rapes, 5,000 stabbings, and 30,000 instances of racial microaggressions."

    C'mon, Richard. Please.
    Why is it silly ?

    There are positives and negatives from immigration and these vary depending on how many and who the immigrants are.

    And just like any other policy the relative positives and negatives involved need to be estimated to decide whether the policy is worthwhile or not.

    Otherwise you have immigration without any planning on how it will affect demand for housing and public services for instance.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    You've seriously never heard of Conor McGregor? Wow.
    Yes, I am aware the failing is mine!

    I have no interest in or understanding of the UFC world. No more than I do in video gaming and e-sports

    I accept both are massive around the world - but hey, life is short
    Conor McGregor, love him or hate him, has transcended the UFC world. His is a very interesting story and there is a good Netflix doc about him.
    Well I just watched a video of him beating the absolute quintessence of shit out of some opponent, so he can certainty fight. In an entertaining way
    The fighting is the least interesting part of him and of late it hasn't gone too well. His "journey" is, meanwhile, very interesting. Modest background, extremely focused on what he wanted from an early age, achieved phenomenal success at one point in fighting, businessman who sold the drinks business he founded for $600m...

    Google any UFC pre-fight press conference to understand why he is showbiz.

    As for this minute, however, he is having a bit of a moment.
    Wow. That is indeed a heck of a journey

    I shall google…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RcdynucS-I
  • ..

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    We really should be talking about Dublin

    I think that’s the biggest anti migrant race riot Europe has seen in many decades. And it was in Ireland, of all places

    Ironically enough, the stabbing chap was stopped by a more recent immigrant, a Brazilian Deliveroo rider.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/motorcyclist-hero-stops-school-stabbing-6231383-Nov2023/
    I note that the Irish Times was super keen to racially identify the Brazilian hero who whacked the knife man (and, indeed, well done him) yet in the very same article it refused to racially identify the actual knife man - merely saying he is a “naturalised Irish citizen who has been in Ireland for 20 years”. No mention that he is - it seems -Algerian

    Its these lies and double standards which drive people nuts and make everything worse
    It is perfectly simple if you think about it journalistically. The newspaper was able to interview the Brazilian chap but not the murderer who was in custody. Until the Garda confirmed the perpetrator's ethnicity and immigration status, all the papers had were rumours that the guy looked a bit foreign. Blame the police, not the press. Even then, unless the chap had all his papers on him, it would have taken some time for the police to confirm who he was by which time the riot was in full swing.
    That’s bollocks. If they knew he was a “naturalised Irish citizen of 20 years standing” then the paper obviously knew his non Irish and Algerian ancestry

    I’m not defending the hooligan rioters. A bunch of them ended up looting shops. Way to show you’re a mob of morons

    However Ireland really DOES have a problem with Woke media trying to hide awkward facts and smearing anyone with anxieties as racist. Possibly even worse than the UK
    Again, the newspaper was presumably reporting whatever information the police released. It is not as if reporters could ask the chap himself as he was already in a police cell. Of course, the absence of information allowed rumours to spread in the streets and on social media but you can't blame the papers for not reporting what they did not know.
    I confess I’d never heard of this Conor mcgregor character before

    A UFC fighter it seems. He has become the figurehead of the antiWoke Irish

    He has 10 MILLION followers on Twitter. So a really huge influencer
    10 million followers is more than the population of Ireland so a lot of those must be his UFC fans in America and elsewhere, but yes.
    He’s yet another denizen of the AndrewTate-iverse. Should be ignored primarily on matters of taste, he dropped £2.2m on this monstrosity.


    Thats a nice shirt, but you can get similar in Next for £35.
    I've never understood the fashion for monogrammed shirt cuffs. It's rarely done well and looks like stray fluff from a distance.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,818

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    All of those are good policies individually.

    But the problem is that the Government is still massively increasing taxes by fiscal drag.

    Giving small tax cuts funded by much bigger tax rises, isn't anything to be proud of.

    Still, for the longer term rebalancing of the economy and taxes, I would be OK with another five years of fiscal drag if the next five years saw a further 2% per year cut in National Insurance - though Employers National Insurance needs dealing with too.

    Yes, agree with this. Using fiscal drag to reduce NI is a good policy as it shifts the burden of tax from working people to non-working people. I'd like to see another 2% cut in NI next autumn and to continue until Employees NI is abolished. The fact that income from work attracts a higher rate of tax than income from idleness shows just how awful the nations priorities have been for the past 50 years. This move only addresses a small portion of it.
    Absolutely not, we should be ringfencing NI to fund the JSA, state pension and some healthcare as it was created to do
    On that logic, we should be going back to 1920s policies in all sorts of other ways.
    You think he would disapprove?
    Yes. Too new-fangled.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    If a serious Muslim party party is ever formed in the UK Labour could suffer quite badly


    Plaistow North (Newham) Council By-Election Result:

    🙋 IND (Naqvi): 46.3% (New)
    🌹 LAB: 27.4% (-39.1)
    🙋 IND (Khan): 10.0% (New)
    🌳 CON: 9.4% (-6.8)
    🌍 GRN: 4.1% (-13.2)
    🔶 LDM: 2.7% (New)

    Independent GAIN from Labour.
    Changes w/ 2022.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1727852237584482589?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    In a few seats, maybe. Something like 6 or 7% of the total UK population is Muslim, and I'd bet that a majority are not likely to shift their vote from the mainstream parties. There will be cases like Bethnal Green or Bradford West where there is a significant enough base who are willing to vote contrary (as with Respect) but in general FPTP makes it difficult to be a significant electoral force.

    I'd also venture that most Muslims in the UK don't particularly define their politics through the lens of their religion.
    The interesting thing about Islam, however, is that it is not just a religion. It is a religion and a political system and a political belief also.
    Any more or less than any other religion? All religions are internally diverse in beliefs and practices. Beliefs about ultimate truths and how one should live one's life can obviously be expected to impact on one's politics, but how much will vary.
    Yes moreso. You are right but Islam is a political system unlike Christianity.
    The UK is a Christian theocracy headed by a man anointed by God to oversee the government, whose history for several centuries has been one Christian denomination fighting another for supremacy and where the major Christian religious dates are enforced public holidays.

This discussion has been closed.