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Is this the strategy Sunak should follow to win the election? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,615
edited November 2023 in General
Is this the strategy Sunak should follow to win the election? – politicalbetting.com

Did cognitive ability matter in the UK’s Brexit vote?Research from our academics suggests cognitive ability was strongly linked to voting to Remain in the 2016 referendum ??https://t.co/78IzvGAL8k pic.twitter.com/8DnBNtSWAa

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,158
    Test.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,354
    edited November 2023
    First, like our tax rate

    Edit: Second best, like me
  • isamisam Posts: 42,292
    What is cognitive ability?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,181
    Brains and clean undies: a winning coalition?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,181
    isam said:

    What is cognitive ability?

    Cognitive ability is what Leon has more of than the rest of us, as he has made clear on the last few threads.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,560
    edited November 2023
    How about a No Leavers rule for this thread so we can have a nice elevated conversation?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    How was age controlled for in this study?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,082
    isam said:

    What is cognitive ability?

    You don't have to be thick to vote Leave, but it helps.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,641
    All those really clever people, beaten by the dregs of society. Maybe all that private schooling and university education was a waste of money?
    Look, Brexit is probably shit, but calling 52% of the people who voted thickos might make you feel better, but not much use now.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,694
    I have pointed out before that the Tories can't just assume people are as stupid as they think they are. They and their friends have weaponised ignorance and stupidity, and that delivered Brexit.

    But this is different. You can't make people ignore their own senses and feelings. You can't persuade the people who have just seen their mortgage and energy bills shoot up that they are better off. You can't pretend that the places you call a shithole are not a shithole because of "levelling up" money you have promised but never delivered.

    The reason why the Red Wall is going back to red is that the people who knew nothing about Europe have now realised that their original views on the Tories were actually correct...
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,354
    Will people believe Sunak if he goes down this strategy? Brexit was supposed to lead to lower immigration after all, and that hasn't exactly worked out.


  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,756
    The BBC seem to think that “Nella Rose challenges Nigel Farage over immigration” is the fifth most important story in the world right now.

    I am not familiar with the work of Ms Rose but am always happy for people to challenge Mr Farage. I’m not sure I find it particularly newsworthy though.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    The tax cuts in the Autumn Statement will be paid for by the biggest real-terms cut to government spending since austerity, think tanks have warned.

    BBC News - Austerity warning for public services after tax cuts
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67505811

    Just like there was no austerity, there is no tax cut. Its low growth, high inflation that means high taxes don't cover the cost of public services.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    All those really clever people, beaten by the dregs of society. Maybe all that private schooling and university education was a waste of money?
    Look, Brexit is probably shit, but calling 52% of the people who voted thickos might make you feel better, but not much use now.

    Its also a bit of a slippery slope....should we look at every election through this lens?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,223
    Maybe if those in charge of the Remain campaign had greater cognitive abilities then they might have won.

    "If we leave wages will rise"

    "We don't spunk away £350m a week - it is only £260m a week"

    You have to be near the left hand side of the bell curve to think that those were messages that would have voters flocking to the Remain cause.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,719
    Oh great, let's talk about Brexit again.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,253
    kinabalu said:

    How about a No Leavers rule for this thread so we can have a nice elevated conversation?

    Or, characterised differently, a losing-to-a-bus thread?
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,641
    numbertwelve said:

    The BBC seem to think that “Nella Rose challenges Nigel Farage over immigration” is the fifth most important story in the world right now.

    I am not familiar with the work of Ms Rose but am always happy for people to challenge Mr Farage. I’m not sure I find it particularly newsworthy though.

    When Farage is the most well known person on a celebrity show, you're definition of celebrity has a low bar.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,033
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Brains and clean undies: a winning coalition?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X689J5ormFI
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,694
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    All those really clever people, beaten by the dregs of society. Maybe all that private schooling and university education was a waste of money?
    Look, Brexit is probably shit, but calling 52% of the people who voted thickos might make you feel better, but not much use now.

    We are all ignorant about things we don't know about. I am a knowledgeable chap but I know nothing about surgery or engineering or market trading or a long list of specialisms.

    Pointing out that people were ignorant when they voted in the Brexit referendum is not calling them thickos. But it is accurate - and the same is true with so many of the remain voters.

    There was an interview with Tony Blair where he recanted a conversation during the Brexit campaign. Bloke on the street says "you talk like you know more about this than we do" and Blair responded "well I do" and recants all of the things he has done in and with the EU. He then compared it to football fans thinking they know more about coaching and training than the manager of their team - if they had never actually watched football.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,677
    edited November 2023
    Well given a higher proportion of the Leave voters that have passed on, I am mildly surprised that the University of Bath isn´t focussing on the greater propensity to be dead amongst our more Brexity friends.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,470
    As we are talking about a referendum that happened seven years ago, perhaps I can be forgiven for a review of television serial first transmitted thirty-five years ago. As part of the sixtieth anniversary of Dr Who, the YouTuber Linkara is reviewing the 1988 serial "Remembrance of the Daleks" in his usual inimitable style.

    "Doctor Who: Remembrance of the Daleks - Atop the Fourth Wall", Linkara, YouTube, Nov 23, 2023, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Adbbi8kNqw

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,158
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    Oh great, let's talk about Brexit again.

    I can unpublish this thread and publish a thread about Scottish independence.

    (Actually I cannot as I am a bit busy at work, but just for you, I'll do a piece on Scottish independence over the next few days.)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    Is thickos can't be trusted to vote, i think we also need to ensure thickos can't become MPs.....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,158
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Is thickos can't be trusted to vote, i think we also need to ensure thickos can't become MPs.....

    It would have stopped Nadine Dorries and Jared O'Mara, so I am all for it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    Thirteen hostages taken by Hamas will be released on Friday, Majid al-Ansari a spokesman for the Qatari foreign ministry has said. He said Qatar's aim is for this deal is to end with a lasting truce.

    Has anybody told BiBi this?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    Is Cognitive Ability another way of saying IQ? If so, it's all a load of old bollocks.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,694
    SandyRentool said:

    Maybe if those in charge of the Remain campaign had greater cognitive abilities then they might have won.

    "If we leave wages will rise"

    "We don't spunk away £350m a week - it is only £260m a week"

    You have to be near the left hand side of the bell curve to think that those were messages that would have voters flocking to the Remain cause.

    What was missing was simple - positive vision. Both campaigns gave the pros and cons about whether we should leave. The remain campaign rarely spoke about why we should stay.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,292
    edited November 2023
    I wonder what the split for this metric was in the 1980 Rhodesian Election. Should that decision and its consequences should be viewed through the prism of not letting the less well educated people vote?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    "In a statement they say a "terror tunnel network" under the hospital "exploited electricity and resources taken from the hospital" - a claim the Israeli military made in a video it shared on X yesterday, which shows toilets, a kitchen area, cables and an air conditioning unit, in tunnels they say are below the hospital"

    This "they say" nonsense is really dangerous....western journalists have been, there are drone shots starting from the hospital descending into the tunnels, etc. But BBC still reporting as if they could be lying.

    If you want to, you could criticise and say what is shown isn't evidence of a command and control centre. The Israeli claim they have found it, but its booby trapped and they are currently in process of clearing it.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,354
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The tax cuts in the Autumn Statement will be paid for by the biggest real-terms cut to government spending since austerity, think tanks have warned.

    BBC News - Austerity warning for public services after tax cuts
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67505811

    Just like there was no austerity, there is no tax cut. Its low growth, high inflation that means high taxes don't cover the cost of public services.

    I'd argue that there very much was austerity, and that it was a large part of the reason Leave won the referendum.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,770
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    Oh great, let's talk about Brexit again.

    I can unpublish this thread and publish a thread about Scottish independence.

    (Actually I cannot as I am a bit busy at work, but just for you, I'll do a piece on Scottish independence over the next few days.)
    Time for a sharp exit. Time for a cool, sharp Harp.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,470
    Cicero said:

    Well given a higher proportion of the Leave voters that have passed on, I am mildly surprised that the University of Bath isn´t focussing on the greater propensity to be dead amongst our more Brexity friends.

    (Narrator: the oldest voters in the referendum were the Greatest and Silent Generations, who were solidly Remain. The solid Leavers were Boomers, who will be here for a while yet)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,181
    Mugging is ‘dying industry’ because fewer people carry cash
    Street theft is being replaced with digital methods involving AI
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/23/mugging-dying-industry-people-dont-carry-cash-virgin-money/ (£££)

    The cashless society!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,746
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    "In a statement they say a "terror tunnel network" under the hospital "exploited electricity and resources taken from the hospital" - a claim the Israeli military made in a video it shared on X yesterday, which shows toilets, a kitchen area, cables and an air conditioning unit, in tunnels they say are below the hospital"

    This "they say" nonsense is really dangerous....western journalists have been, there are drone shots starting from the hospital descending into the tunnels, etc. But BBC still reporting as if they could be lying.

    You could criticise and say what is shown isn't evidence of a command and control centre. The Israeli claim they have found it, but its booby trapped and they are currently in process of clearing it.

    The BBC can't even get as far as calling Hamas, a group who raped and murdered well over a thousand people on 7th October, terrorists.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,158
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Mugging is ‘dying industry’ because fewer people carry cash
    Street theft is being replaced with digital methods involving AI
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/23/mugging-dying-industry-people-dont-carry-cash-virgin-money/ (£££)

    The cashless society!

    I've pointed on here one of the major factors on companies going cashless is that their insurance costs go through the roof if they keep cash on the premises, particularly overnight.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    CatMan said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    The tax cuts in the Autumn Statement will be paid for by the biggest real-terms cut to government spending since austerity, think tanks have warned.

    BBC News - Austerity warning for public services after tax cuts
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67505811

    Just like there was no austerity, there is no tax cut. Its low growth, high inflation that means high taxes don't cover the cost of public services.

    I'd argue that there very much was austerity, and that it was a large part of the reason Leave won the referendum.
    There wasn't austerity by the economic definition of it. Most of Osbornes cuts were actually freezes or reductions to planned increases in spending i.e. fiscal drag.

    As for reason for Brexit, I am always struck by the voxpops they did in Stoke, its shit round here, its always been shit since the pottery and mines went, local council don't do shit, f##k em all.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Mugging is ‘dying industry’ because fewer people carry cash
    Street theft is being replaced with digital methods involving AI
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/23/mugging-dying-industry-people-dont-carry-cash-virgin-money/ (£££)

    The cashless society!

    Huh....i thought phone and watch robberies are through the roof? Thats still mugging.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,033
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    All those really clever people, beaten by the dregs of society. Maybe all that private schooling and university education was a waste of money?
    Look, Brexit is probably shit, but calling 52% of the people who voted thickos might make you feel better, but not much use now.

    What is the split by private schools? Is that particularly remainy? I would imagine quite a few liked the JRM Singapore on Thames fantasy.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,158
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Mugging is ‘dying industry’ because fewer people carry cash
    Street theft is being replaced with digital methods involving AI
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/23/mugging-dying-industry-people-dont-carry-cash-virgin-money/ (£££)

    The cashless society!

    Huh....phone and watch robberies are through the roof are they not?
    I thought phone robberies were dropping because with smartphones the owners can turn them into bricks moments after being stolen.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Mugging is ‘dying industry’ because fewer people carry cash
    Street theft is being replaced with digital methods involving AI
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/23/mugging-dying-industry-people-dont-carry-cash-virgin-money/ (£££)

    The cashless society!

    Huh....phone and watch robberies are through the roof are they not?
    I thought phone robberies were dropping because with smartphones the owners can turn them into bricks moments after being stolen.
    I believe that it is easy to get around that and they are just shipped to Asia and Africa. In fact huge numbers to China where they are restored to new.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,984
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    isam said:

    What is cognitive ability?

    Cognitive ability is what Leon has more of than the rest of us, as he has made clear on the last few threads.
    Liver functional capacity then ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,431
    turbotubbs said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    "In a statement they say a "terror tunnel network" under the hospital "exploited electricity and resources taken from the hospital" - a claim the Israeli military made in a video it shared on X yesterday, which shows toilets, a kitchen area, cables and an air conditioning unit, in tunnels they say are below the hospital"

    This "they say" nonsense is really dangerous....western journalists have been, there are drone shots starting from the hospital descending into the tunnels, etc. But BBC still reporting as if they could be lying.

    You could criticise and say what is shown isn't evidence of a command and control centre. The Israeli claim they have found it, but its booby trapped and they are currently in process of clearing it.

    The BBC can't even get as far as calling Hamas, a group who raped and murdered well over a thousand people on 7th October, terrorists.
    Test:

  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,770
    On a totally less contentious topic: Russian influence in elections.

    It is certainly highly convenient for Putin that Wilders, a man who has repeatedly expressed sympathy for Russia, opposed sanctions and opposes any military aid for Ukraine, has just defied opinion polls and come first in the election.

    Is he simply very lucky? What with this, and the recent Slovakian election which was also a surprise vs polling, and the convenient timing of the 7th October attacks. Or is it remotely possibly that his people might have been up to no good?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,984
    Is this the strategy Sunak should follow to win the election?

    No, it's the strategy the Tories have followed for some years now.
    And they are going to lose anyway.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640
    Of course the Tories will go for the moron vote. They’ll fill their heads with any old shite they can think of to get that cross in the box. Obvs immigration. Culture war bollocks. Backsliding on Brexit.

    The calculation is with the votes of clever, selfish amoral bastards who are happy to fuck the country as long as they think they’ll make (more) money from it and the morons who’ll be seduced by the bollocks the client media churn out - along with a few million, often southern but not exclusively, useful fucking idiots who aren’t especially rich or stupid and get shafted along with the rest of us but actually seem to believe the Tory shite despite the stark evidence of the last 13 years - will be just enough to win.

    And sadly, they might be right. It worked for Trump once, and may well do again.

    Did I see someone earlier saying they’ve sneaked through a massive increase in the cap on election spending? If so, there you go. Prepare for an avalanche of utter, utter shite to corral the mouth breathers. They’ll simply use massive funding from shady billionaires to attempt to lie their way to victory. Just like they did with Brexit.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,769
    Cicero said:

    Well given a higher proportion of the Leave voters that have passed on, I am mildly surprised that the University of Bath isn´t focussing on the greater propensity to be dead amongst our more Brexity friends.

    Obvious problem there. Unless they have an ouija board?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,984
    TimS said:

    On a totally less contentious topic: Russian influence in elections.

    It is certainly highly convenient for Putin that Wilders, a man who has repeatedly expressed sympathy for Russia, opposed sanctions and opposes any military aid for Ukraine, has just defied opinion polls and come first in the election.

    Is he simply very lucky? What with this, and the recent Slovakian election which was also a surprise vs polling, and the convenient timing of the 7th October attacks. Or is it remotely possibly that his people might have been up to no good?

    Have they ever not been up to no good ?

    While they no doubt interfere with elections to the best of their ability, I think we have to take responsibility for our own votes.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,310
    northern_monkey said:

    Of course the Tories will go for the moron vote. They’ll fill their heads with any old shite they can think of to get that cross in the box. Obvs immigration. Culture war bollocks. Backsliding on Brexit.

    The calculation is with the votes of clever, selfish amoral bastards who are happy to fuck the country as long as they think they’ll make (more) money from it and the morons who’ll be seduced by the bollocks the client media churn out - along with a few million, often southern but not exclusively, useful fucking idiots who aren’t especially rich or stupid and get shafted along with the rest of us but actually seem to believe the Tory shite despite the stark evidence of the last 13 years - will be just enough to win.

    And sadly, they might be right. It worked for Trump once, and may well do again.

    Did I see someone earlier saying they’ve sneaked through a massive increase in the cap on election spending? If so, there you go. Prepare for an avalanche of utter, utter shite to corral the mouth breathers. They’ll simply use massive funding from shady billionaires to attempt to lie their way to victory. Just like they did with Brexit.

    And, if you can't out-argue the "mouth breathers", what does it say about you?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,769
    viewcode said:

    As we are talking about a referendum that happened seven years ago, perhaps I can be forgiven for a review of television serial first transmitted thirty-five years ago. As part of the sixtieth anniversary of Dr Who, the YouTuber Linkara is reviewing the 1988 serial "Remembrance of the Daleks" in his usual inimitable style.

    "Doctor Who: Remembrance of the Daleks - Atop the Fourth Wall", Linkara, YouTube, Nov 23, 2023, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Adbbi8kNqw

    Will you be having a behind-the-sofa discussion afterwards?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,181
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Mugging is ‘dying industry’ because fewer people carry cash
    Street theft is being replaced with digital methods involving AI
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/23/mugging-dying-industry-people-dont-carry-cash-virgin-money/ (£££)

    The cashless society!

    Huh....i thought phone and watch robberies are through the roof? Thats still mugging.
    Aiui posh watch robbers are prolific but limited to certain areas because ordinary people do not wear Patek Philippe or Rolex, but violence or the threat of violence plays a large part, whereas phone robberies are more about snatching them than mugging.

    Coincidentally, I'm just about to watch a video claiming 92 per cent of phones end up in the same street in China, which sounds unlikely but...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYGYsFSruNo
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,441
    edited November 2023
    Fishing said:

    On topic

    Grapes still oozing sourness after seven and a half years ...

    Nearly eight years. That's almost half a generation. Time for another once in a generation EU Referendum. Promise that, and Rishi Rich gets re-elected, or so the survey says.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    TimS said:

    On a totally less contentious topic: Russian influence in elections.

    It is certainly highly convenient for Putin that Wilders, a man who has repeatedly expressed sympathy for Russia, opposed sanctions and opposes any military aid for Ukraine, has just defied opinion polls and come first in the election.

    Is he simply very lucky? What with this, and the recent Slovakian election which was also a surprise vs polling, and the convenient timing of the 7th October attacks. Or is it remotely possibly that his people might have been up to no good?

    Either you trust people with the vote or you don't. If you think elections are so easy for hostile actors to swing, then you need to come up with an alternative system.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,746
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    turbotubbs said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    "In a statement they say a "terror tunnel network" under the hospital "exploited electricity and resources taken from the hospital" - a claim the Israeli military made in a video it shared on X yesterday, which shows toilets, a kitchen area, cables and an air conditioning unit, in tunnels they say are below the hospital"

    This "they say" nonsense is really dangerous....western journalists have been, there are drone shots starting from the hospital descending into the tunnels, etc. But BBC still reporting as if they could be lying.

    You could criticise and say what is shown isn't evidence of a command and control centre. The Israeli claim they have found it, but its booby trapped and they are currently in process of clearing it.

    The BBC can't even get as far as calling Hamas, a group who raped and murdered well over a thousand people on 7th October, terrorists.
    Test:

    If your point is that Israel is a terrorist group too have the balls to say that.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,181
    Several children injured in stabbing outside a school in Dublin
    https://news.sky.com/story/serious-incident-in-dublin-city-centre-as-children-injured-after-suspected-stabbing-13014383
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,582
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    turbotubbs said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    "In a statement they say a "terror tunnel network" under the hospital "exploited electricity and resources taken from the hospital" - a claim the Israeli military made in a video it shared on X yesterday, which shows toilets, a kitchen area, cables and an air conditioning unit, in tunnels they say are below the hospital"

    This "they say" nonsense is really dangerous....western journalists have been, there are drone shots starting from the hospital descending into the tunnels, etc. But BBC still reporting as if they could be lying.

    You could criticise and say what is shown isn't evidence of a command and control centre. The Israeli claim they have found it, but its booby trapped and they are currently in process of clearing it.

    The BBC can't even get as far as calling Hamas, a group who raped and murdered well over a thousand people on 7th October, terrorists.
    Test:

    Deaths laid at the door of Hamas: all of them.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,582
    northern_monkey said:

    Of course the Tories will go for the moron vote. They’ll fill their heads with any old shite they can think of to get that cross in the box. Obvs immigration. Culture war bollocks. Backsliding on Brexit.

    The calculation is with the votes of clever, selfish amoral bastards who are happy to fuck the country as long as they think they’ll make (more) money from it and the morons who’ll be seduced by the bollocks the client media churn out - along with a few million, often southern but not exclusively, useful fucking idiots who aren’t especially rich or stupid and get shafted along with the rest of us but actually seem to believe the Tory shite despite the stark evidence of the last 13 years - will be just enough to win.

    And sadly, they might be right. It worked for Trump once, and may well do again.

    Did I see someone earlier saying they’ve sneaked through a massive increase in the cap on election spending? If so, there you go. Prepare for an avalanche of utter, utter shite to corral the mouth breathers. They’ll simply use massive funding from shady billionaires to attempt to lie their way to victory. Just like they did with Brexit.

    You're just pissed that, after numerous decades, the moron vote saw through Labour.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,470
    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    As we are talking about a referendum that happened seven years ago, perhaps I can be forgiven for a review of television serial first transmitted thirty-five years ago. As part of the sixtieth anniversary of Dr Who, the YouTuber Linkara is reviewing the 1988 serial "Remembrance of the Daleks" in his usual inimitable style.

    "Doctor Who: Remembrance of the Daleks - Atop the Fourth Wall", Linkara, YouTube, Nov 23, 2023, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Adbbi8kNqw

    Will you be having a behind-the-sofa discussion afterwards?
    I'm in the office today, so no sofa unfortunately. It will have to be behind the break-out table. Not quite the same thing... :(
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Several children injured in stabbing outside a school in Dublin
    https://news.sky.com/story/serious-incident-in-dublin-city-centre-as-children-injured-after-suspected-stabbing-13014383

    That mass stabbing at village fete in France got memory holed quickly.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,582
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Mugging is ‘dying industry’ because fewer people carry cash
    Street theft is being replaced with digital methods involving AI
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/23/mugging-dying-industry-people-dont-carry-cash-virgin-money/ (£££)

    The cashless society!

    Two Romanian youths locally were robbing people at cashpoints. When you know you have somebody carrying cash...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,431
    edited November 2023
    MarqueeMark said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    turbotubbs said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    "In a statement they say a "terror tunnel network" under the hospital "exploited electricity and resources taken from the hospital" - a claim the Israeli military made in a video it shared on X yesterday, which shows toilets, a kitchen area, cables and an air conditioning unit, in tunnels they say are below the hospital"

    This "they say" nonsense is really dangerous....western journalists have been, there are drone shots starting from the hospital descending into the tunnels, etc. But BBC still reporting as if they could be lying.

    You could criticise and say what is shown isn't evidence of a command and control centre. The Israeli claim they have found it, but its booby trapped and they are currently in process of clearing it.

    The BBC can't even get as far as calling Hamas, a group who raped and murdered well over a thousand people on 7th October, terrorists.
    Test:

    Deaths laid at the door of Hamas: all of them.
    Test(s):




  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,773
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Is thickos can't be trusted to vote, i think we also need to ensure thickos can't become MPs.....

    It would have stopped Nadine Dorries and Jared O'Mara, so I am all for it.
    Why stop at MPs? Apply to SPADs and civil servants (including real world civil servants working for quangos).

    No more Cummings. Or Case. Or Acland-Hood. Or Vennells.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,582
    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    All those really clever people, beaten by the dregs of society. Maybe all that private schooling and university education was a waste of money?
    Look, Brexit is probably shit, but calling 52% of the people who voted thickos might make you feel better, but not much use now.

    It's all they have to hang on to.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    On topic, Bush also said this:

    "There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again."

    Or in Brexit terms, just because you conned enough people in 2016 and 2019*, that doesn't mean it'll work again in 2024.

    * Although other factors in play then too.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,033
    williamglenn said:

    TimS said:

    On a totally less contentious topic: Russian influence in elections.

    It is certainly highly convenient for Putin that Wilders, a man who has repeatedly expressed sympathy for Russia, opposed sanctions and opposes any military aid for Ukraine, has just defied opinion polls and come first in the election.

    Is he simply very lucky? What with this, and the recent Slovakian election which was also a surprise vs polling, and the convenient timing of the 7th October attacks. Or is it remotely possibly that his people might have been up to no good?

    Either you trust people with the vote or you don't. If you think elections are so easy for hostile actors to swing, then you need to come up with an alternative system.
    Or you could limit million pound donations that regardless of source don't benefit society perhaps?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    People arriving on study-related visas accounted for the largest proportion (39%) of long-term immigration of non-EU nationals to the UK last year, at 378,000 people, up slightly from 320,000 in the previous 12 months.

    Me thinks there is a loophole being exploited here....400k non-eu foreign students per year....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,181
    edited November 2023
    MarqueeMark said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Mugging is ‘dying industry’ because fewer people carry cash
    Street theft is being replaced with digital methods involving AI
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/23/mugging-dying-industry-people-dont-carry-cash-virgin-money/ (£££)

    The cashless society!

    Two Romanian youths locally were robbing people at cashpoints. When you know you have somebody carrying cash...
    Makes sense. (eta though they were probably on Candid Camera.) A friend of mine fell victim to some card sleight of hand at a cashpoint recently, and come to think of it, his wife had her card snatched shortly afterwards.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    What is a "cashpoint" ????

    I genuinely don't think i have used an ATM since before COVID.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,181
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What is a "cashpoint" ????

    What you Americans call ATMs.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,495
    Hat tip to me for posting about this on the last thread!

    Anyway, this is a nice Twitter thread on what G Wilders' policies actually are: https://twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1727608887916818612
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,565
    Cicero said:

    Well given a higher proportion of the Leave voters that have passed on, I am mildly surprised that the University of Bath isn´t focussing on the greater propensity to be dead amongst our more Brexity friends.

    This was the missing element in project fear (mk2) - stats analysis showing that intending to vote for Leave was associated with a significantly higher actuarial risk of death (and hospitalisation, cognitive decline, impotence etc) within the next 10 years compared to intending to vote for Remain. :wink:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    bondegezou said:

    Hat tip to me for posting about this on the last thread!

    Anyway, this is a nice Twitter thread on what G Wilders' policies actually are: https://twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1727608887916818612

    Another one of these far right libertarians?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What is a "cashpoint" ????

    Sometimes it's better to adopt the American terms than invent neologisms for the sake of being different. There's nothing wrong with "cash machine", but ATM is better than "cashpoint".
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,565
    SandyRentool said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    Mugging is ‘dying industry’ because fewer people carry cash
    Street theft is being replaced with digital methods involving AI
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/23/mugging-dying-industry-people-dont-carry-cash-virgin-money/ (£££)

    The cashless society!

    Huh....i thought phone and watch robberies are through the roof? Thats still mugging.
    Aiui posh watch robbers are prolific but limited to certain areas because ordinary people do not wear Patek Philippe or Rolex, but violence or the threat of violence plays a large part, whereas phone robberies are more about snatching them than mugging.

    Coincidentally, I'm just about to watch a video claiming 92 per cent of phones end up in the same street in China, which sounds unlikely but...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYGYsFSruNo
    If some villain is foolish enough to rob me of my Fitbit watch I hope he has to run from the police so that I get credited with the exercise.
    Could be a double personal best - first in trying to escape the robber, then recorded by the robber while he/she makes an escape :smiley:
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,091
    Yes - if the Tories want to win the next election they should definitely try to reduce the average cognitive ability of the population.

    Unfortunately for them, the straightforward method advocated by Tarquin the Proud isn't feasible.

    Deporting to Rwanda people with higher than average cognitive ability might achieve the same aim, but I don't see much prospect of their doing that either.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    MarqueeMark said:

    twistedfirestopper3 said:

    All those really clever people, beaten by the dregs of society. Maybe all that private schooling and university education was a waste of money?
    Look, Brexit is probably shit, but calling 52% of the people who voted thickos might make you feel better, but not much use now.

    It's all they have to hang on to.
    Making a stupid decision does not automatically make the person who made it stupid overall. Of course there will be a correlation between a population en masse making a dumb decision as there will be a larger quantity of the genuinely gullible amongst them.

    Many people who voted Brexit are not necessarily stupid even though it was a dumb decision based on a naïve and forlorn hope that it would make our lives somehow better.

    There are many people who plan to vote Labour who are not necessarily stupid, even though there are many who vote this way who clearly are. This decision will also be based on a a naïve forlorn hope that it will make our lives somehow better. It is an equally dumb delusion.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,565
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What is a "cashpoint" ????

    An argument put forward by anyone opposing Anabobazina? :wink:
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,181
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    People arriving on study-related visas accounted for the largest proportion (39%) of long-term immigration of non-EU nationals to the UK last year, at 378,000 people, up slightly from 320,000 in the previous 12 months.

    Me thinks there is a loophole being exploited here....400k non-eu foreign students per year....

    There are a lot of iffy higher education providers but in this case, I'd wonder about the definition of long-term compared with a 3 or 4 year course plus up to 3 years (is that right?) after graduation.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,770
    noneoftheabove said:

    williamglenn said:

    TimS said:

    On a totally less contentious topic: Russian influence in elections.

    It is certainly highly convenient for Putin that Wilders, a man who has repeatedly expressed sympathy for Russia, opposed sanctions and opposes any military aid for Ukraine, has just defied opinion polls and come first in the election.

    Is he simply very lucky? What with this, and the recent Slovakian election which was also a surprise vs polling, and the convenient timing of the 7th October attacks. Or is it remotely possibly that his people might have been up to no good?

    Either you trust people with the vote or you don't. If you think elections are so easy for hostile actors to swing, then you need to come up with an alternative system.
    Or you could limit million pound donations that regardless of source don't benefit society perhaps?
    There are quite a few ways Western democracies could better protect against known foreign influence operations. Britain does fortunately seem to have better immunity to Russia than most but I think that’s partly the political context. Since Corbyn left there has not been a pro-Putin party leadership in any of the main parties, so no simple route for influence.

    China though…not so sure. There’s rather a lot of evidence of influence across multiple levels. Whether that yet extends to elections I don’t know.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,181
    TimS said:

    noneoftheabove said:

    williamglenn said:

    TimS said:

    On a totally less contentious topic: Russian influence in elections.

    It is certainly highly convenient for Putin that Wilders, a man who has repeatedly expressed sympathy for Russia, opposed sanctions and opposes any military aid for Ukraine, has just defied opinion polls and come first in the election.

    Is he simply very lucky? What with this, and the recent Slovakian election which was also a surprise vs polling, and the convenient timing of the 7th October attacks. Or is it remotely possibly that his people might have been up to no good?

    Either you trust people with the vote or you don't. If you think elections are so easy for hostile actors to swing, then you need to come up with an alternative system.
    Or you could limit million pound donations that regardless of source don't benefit society perhaps?
    There are quite a few ways Western democracies could better protect against known foreign influence operations. Britain does fortunately seem to have better immunity to Russia than most but I think that’s partly the political context. Since Corbyn left there has not been a pro-Putin party leadership in any of the main parties, so no simple route for influence.

    China though…not so sure. There’s rather a lot of evidence of influence across multiple levels. Whether that yet extends to elections I don’t know.
    You mean since Boris left. He was the one visiting KGB spies and putting their sons in the Lords.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,495
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    bondegezou said:

    Hat tip to me for posting about this on the last thread!

    Anyway, this is a nice Twitter thread on what G Wilders' policies actually are: https://twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1727608887916818612

    Another one of these far right libertarians?
    I think you can drop "libertarian".
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,770
    edited November 2023
    bondegezou said:

    Hat tip to me for posting about this on the last thread!

    Anyway, this is a nice Twitter thread on what G Wilders' policies actually are: https://twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1727608887916818612

    Amongst all the schoolboy Bannon nonsense there is one policy in there that really matters for the world: withdraw all military aid from Ukraine. That makes Wilders a hostile actor.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,769
    Selebian said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What is a "cashpoint" ????

    An argument put forward by anyone opposing Anabobazina? :wink:
    I look forward to Viz chronicling the adventures of Anabob the Anti-Bob and his encounters with (a) the ATM at the corner shop, (b) the Scouts' Bob-a-Job Week, (c) Christmas dinner.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    bondegezou said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    bondegezou said:

    Hat tip to me for posting about this on the last thread!

    Anyway, this is a nice Twitter thread on what G Wilders' policies actually are: https://twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1727608887916818612

    Another one of these far right libertarians?
    I think you can drop "libertarian".
    Lower taxes on everything, higher speed limits, getting rid of government departments, thats all pretty libetarian....i mean echo'ing the idiots on tiktok over letter to America, if we ignore the Jew Muslim bashing.

    Sounds pie in the sky stuff, but quarter of the dutch just voted for it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,181
    williamglenn said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What is a "cashpoint" ????

    Sometimes it's better to adopt the American terms than invent neologisms for the sake of being different. There's nothing wrong with "cash machine", but ATM is better than "cashpoint".
    tbh I cannot remember what we called them but even as late as the 1980s, the card was literally that, cardboard with holes, that would be kept by the machine and then posted back to you.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,560
    williamglenn said:

    TimS said:

    On a totally less contentious topic: Russian influence in elections.

    It is certainly highly convenient for Putin that Wilders, a man who has repeatedly expressed sympathy for Russia, opposed sanctions and opposes any military aid for Ukraine, has just defied opinion polls and come first in the election.

    Is he simply very lucky? What with this, and the recent Slovakian election which was also a surprise vs polling, and the convenient timing of the 7th October attacks. Or is it remotely possibly that his people might have been up to no good?

    Either you trust people with the vote or you don't. If you think elections are so easy for hostile actors to swing, then you need to come up with an alternative system.
    You can try and prevent or counter disinformation. I think that comes before ditching elections.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TimS said:

    noneoftheabove said:

    williamglenn said:

    TimS said:

    On a totally less contentious topic: Russian influence in elections.

    It is certainly highly convenient for Putin that Wilders, a man who has repeatedly expressed sympathy for Russia, opposed sanctions and opposes any military aid for Ukraine, has just defied opinion polls and come first in the election.

    Is he simply very lucky? What with this, and the recent Slovakian election which was also a surprise vs polling, and the convenient timing of the 7th October attacks. Or is it remotely possibly that his people might have been up to no good?

    Either you trust people with the vote or you don't. If you think elections are so easy for hostile actors to swing, then you need to come up with an alternative system.
    Or you could limit million pound donations that regardless of source don't benefit society perhaps?
    There are quite a few ways Western democracies could better protect against known foreign influence operations. Britain does fortunately seem to have better immunity to Russia than most but I think that’s partly the political context. Since Corbyn left there has not been a pro-Putin party leadership in any of the main parties, so no simple route for influence.

    China though…not so sure. There’s rather a lot of evidence of influence across multiple levels. Whether that yet extends to elections I don’t know.
    You mean since Boris left. He was the one visiting KGB spies and putting their sons in the Lords.
    Also Farage, though not a party leader any more, is tied into the same mob.

    But yes, there are no significant primary Putin-allied actors in UK politics at the moment. Via social and legacy media though, loads of secondary ones with a lot of influence.

    And Britain is not an island. Musk is absolutely in the Kremlin-aligned crew and Twitter / X is more powerful *within the UK* than any domestic news channel.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,770
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    bondegezou said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    bondegezou said:

    Hat tip to me for posting about this on the last thread!

    Anyway, this is a nice Twitter thread on what G Wilders' policies actually are: https://twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1727608887916818612

    Another one of these far right libertarians?
    I think you can drop "libertarian".
    Lower taxes on everything, higher speed limits, getting rid of government departments, thats all pretty libetarian....i mean echo'ing the idiots on tiktok over letter to America, if we ignore the Jew Muslim bashing.
    It reads to me like some sort of 8chan teenage boy wishlist.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    TimS said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    bondegezou said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    bondegezou said:

    Hat tip to me for posting about this on the last thread!

    Anyway, this is a nice Twitter thread on what G Wilders' policies actually are: https://twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1727608887916818612

    Another one of these far right libertarians?
    I think you can drop "libertarian".
    Lower taxes on everything, higher speed limits, getting rid of government departments, thats all pretty libetarian....i mean echo'ing the idiots on tiktok over letter to America, if we ignore the Jew Muslim bashing.
    It reads to me like some sort of 8chan teenage boy wishlist.
    It absolutely batshit. Is this a problem with having 27,000 political parties under PR, you promise crazy shit knowing you always have the get out of saying well we can't do free owls for all as i have to go into partnership with 5 other parties.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,743
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What is a "cashpoint" ????

    I genuinely don't think i have used an ATM since before COVID.

    I used one at Sainsbury last week. There was a queue!
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,361
    ydoethur said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Is thickos can't be trusted to vote, i think we also need to ensure thickos can't become MPs.....

    It would have stopped Nadine Dorries and Jared O'Mara, so I am all for it.
    Why stop at MPs? Apply to SPADs and civil servants (including real world civil servants working for quangos).

    No more Cummings. Or Case. Or Acland-Hood. Or Vennells.
    Cummings is not thick.

    Anyway, thickos have their place. It's often a thicko who's willing to ask the Emperor's New Clothes question, without tying it into a conspiracy theory. Don't underestimate the power of a simple question.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,768
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    People arriving on study-related visas accounted for the largest proportion (39%) of long-term immigration of non-EU nationals to the UK last year, at 378,000 people, up slightly from 320,000 in the previous 12 months.

    Me thinks there is a loophole being exploited here....400k non-eu foreign students per year....

    There are a lot of iffy higher education providers but in this case, I'd wonder about the definition of long-term compared with a 3 or 4 year course plus up to 3 years (is that right?) after graduation.
    Two years for undergrad, three for PhD. But at one point, under Cameron I think, it was reduced to four months. Then this was changed back.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    david_herdson said:

    ydoethur said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Is thickos can't be trusted to vote, i think we also need to ensure thickos can't become MPs.....

    It would have stopped Nadine Dorries and Jared O'Mara, so I am all for it.
    Why stop at MPs? Apply to SPADs and civil servants (including real world civil servants working for quangos).

    No more Cummings. Or Case. Or Acland-Hood. Or Vennells.
    Cummings is not thick.

    Anyway, thickos have their place. It's often a thicko who's willing to ask the Emperor's New Clothes question, without tying it into a conspiracy theory. Don't underestimate the power of a simple question.
    More dangerous are the ones suffering the Dunning Kruger Effect....see journalists during COVID.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,770
    edited November 2023
    david_herdson said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    TimS said:

    noneoftheabove said:

    williamglenn said:

    TimS said:

    On a totally less contentious topic: Russian influence in elections.

    It is certainly highly convenient for Putin that Wilders, a man who has repeatedly expressed sympathy for Russia, opposed sanctions and opposes any military aid for Ukraine, has just defied opinion polls and come first in the election.

    Is he simply very lucky? What with this, and the recent Slovakian election which was also a surprise vs polling, and the convenient timing of the 7th October attacks. Or is it remotely possibly that his people might have been up to no good?

    Either you trust people with the vote or you don't. If you think elections are so easy for hostile actors to swing, then you need to come up with an alternative system.
    Or you could limit million pound donations that regardless of source don't benefit society perhaps?
    There are quite a few ways Western democracies could better protect against known foreign influence operations. Britain does fortunately seem to have better immunity to Russia than most but I think that’s partly the political context. Since Corbyn left there has not been a pro-Putin party leadership in any of the main parties, so no simple route for influence.

    China though…not so sure. There’s rather a lot of evidence of influence across multiple levels. Whether that yet extends to elections I don’t know.
    You mean since Boris left. He was the one visiting KGB spies and putting their sons in the Lords.
    Also Farage, though not a party leader any more, is tied into the same mob.

    But yes, there are no significant primary Putin-allied actors in UK politics at the moment. Via social and legacy media though, loads of secondary ones with a lot of influence.

    And Britain is not an island. Musk is absolutely in the Kremlin-aligned crew and Twitter / X is more powerful *within the UK* than any domestic news channel.
    Yes, Farage is probably the most prominent actual politician on the Russian side. Salmond being the other potential dabbler.

    I think Boris’s vulnerability to Russian influence was born of naïveté rather than design. His actions on Ukraine go a long way to absolving him on that front.

    Most British politicians are immunised by a long history of Britain and Russia being each other’s nemesis.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,619
    edited November 2023
    An FA Council member who wrote on social media that "Adolf Hitler would be proud of Benjamin Netanyahu" has resigned.

    In his letter to FA chair Debbie Hewitt, Haq added: "Recent events have left me bereft of energy and hope. I have felt overwhelmed at how this has transpired
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,773
    edited November 2023
    david_herdson said:

    ydoethur said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Is thickos can't be trusted to vote, i think we also need to ensure thickos can't become MPs.....

    It would have stopped Nadine Dorries and Jared O'Mara, so I am all for it.
    Why stop at MPs? Apply to SPADs and civil servants (including real world civil servants working for quangos).

    No more Cummings. Or Case. Or Acland-Hood. Or Vennells.
    Cummings is not thick.

    Anyway, thickos have their place. It's often a thicko who's willing to ask the Emperor's New Clothes question, without tying it into a conspiracy theory. Don't underestimate the power of a simple question.
    It's not them asking the questions. It's the fact they keep epically fucking up the answers that's the problem.

    Edit - incidentally what evidence do you have that Cummings isn't thick? He's been wrong on every single major thing he's ever done and never shown the slightest sign of understanding any even mildly complex issue at anything beyond a very basic level.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,773
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    An FA Council member who wrote on social media that "Adolf Hitler would be proud of Benjamin Netanyahu" has resigned.

    In his letter to FA chair Debbie Hewitt, Haq added: "Recent events have left me bereft of energy and hope. I have felt overwhelmed at how this has transpired

    Sounds as though it got a bit Nazi.
This discussion has been closed.

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