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Rwandan discussions – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited November 2023 in General
Rwandan discussions – politicalbetting.com

What should the govt do about the Rwanda policy in response to Supreme Court ruling?Scrap entirely: 39% (16% of Con 2019 voters)Find another third country: 29% (49% Con 2019 voters)Something else: 14% (22% of Con 2019 voters)https://t.co/t4mzTmyIq5 pic.twitter.com/yMJC7vevkl

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Comments

  • I wonder how Piers Morgan sleeps at night knowing he's the worst Arsenal fan in history.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    Second.
    Nowt else.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Third rate politicians, from all parties.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    @Leon

    Have you ever been to Rwanda ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited November 2023
    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.
  • Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    They have £140 million from HMG and unlikely to ever taken in an illegal immigrant.

    They must be pissing themselves laughing. Reverse colonialism, after a fashion.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    I think we've given them rather a lot of money.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    Isnt it Rwanda touting itself for this line of business ? They are in discussion with several european countries.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Rwanda is not a good idea, far from it but who has got a better solution. Don't expect the perfidious French to help.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215
    edited November 2023
    First rule of political Comms:

    The less you are actually going to do about X, the more and more loudly you have to talk about it.

    Rishi can't change the law, because the Lords can delay anything past the election. And unless the polls are very wrong or something crazy happens, then the policy dies.

    So he has to keep saying that the flights are coming soon, honest. Even if it's utterly dishonest to say so.

    I don't think it works well; wets hate the language and hard cases hate the inaction. But everything else is probably worse and the only way out is not to start from here.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261

    @Leon

    Have you ever been to Rwanda ?

    Never been to Rwanda. I hear it’s lovely - in parts
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404

    Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    They have £140 million from HMG and unlikely to ever taken in an illegal immigrant.

    They must be pissing themselves laughing. Reverse colonialism, after a fashion.
    Good luck to them

    The french are laughing even more £500m

    So £640million for not a lot. That could buy 1 mile of HS2
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    They have £140 million from HMG and unlikely to ever taken in an illegal immigrant.

    They must be pissing themselves laughing. Reverse colonialism, after a fashion.
    They have prepared their ground well for various European nuts. A reverse groundnut scheme if you like.
  • The policy that's needed is to (a) strengthen the qualification criteria (b) put a cap on numbers and (c) deport anyone who doesn't satisfy (a) or (b) back to their country of origin.

    I don't think people care how it's done. The trouble is that Rwanda was an attempt to dodge (a) and manage (b) by showing them a real risk of (c) via another country - Rwanda.

    The only way it can really be done is through domestic law reform, lots of bilateral deals and regional/global deals to redo all the international laws& treaties that currently relate to asylum, which are effectively open-ended.
  • My boy Lord Cameron is in Ukraine.
  • Aaron Bell MP was made a government whip the other day.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/people/aaron-bell

    But no-one has updated his Wikipedia page with the news he is climbing the greasy pole.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Bell_(politician)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Came across this last night.

    This ring was discovered on a woman buried around 1,200 years ago in Birka, an ancient Viking city located 30 km (19 miles) west of contemporary Stockholm, Sweden. What sets this ring apart is the inscription "for Allah" in Kufic Arabic, commonly used between the 8th and 10th centuries. It provides evidence of direct contact between Vikings and the Abbasid Caliphate, the third caliphate succeeding the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

    Delving into the topic, I explored various Arab travelers and their extensive premodern explorations. The most prolific pre-modern explorer was Ibn Battuta, a Muslim Moroccan who is believed to have traversed 117,000 km (72,000 miles)...

    https://twitter.com/historyinmemes/status/1724917855127216634
  • FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    First rule of political Comms:

    The less you are actually going to do about X, the more and more loudly you have to talk about it.

    Rishi can't change the law, because the Lords can delay anything past the election. And unless the polls are very wrong or something crazy happens, then the policy dies.

    So he has to keep saying that the flights are coming soon, honest. Even if it's utterly dishonest to say so.

    I don't think it works well; wets hate the language and hard cases hate the inaction. But everything else is probably worse and the only way out us not to start from here.

    As someone (not me) very perceptibly pointed out yesterday, Rishi’s managing to upset pretty much everyone, by proposing such a system but then being unable to implement it. Not just on immigration either, but on a whole load of policy areas he’s talking like a right-winger but doing at best mushy centrism.
  • I wonder how Piers Morgan sleeps at night knowing he's the worst Arsenal fan in history.

    Fixed that for you
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Nigelb said:

    Came across this last night.

    This ring was discovered on a woman buried around 1,200 years ago in Birka, an ancient Viking city located 30 km (19 miles) west of contemporary Stockholm, Sweden. What sets this ring apart is the inscription "for Allah" in Kufic Arabic, commonly used between the 8th and 10th centuries. It provides evidence of direct contact between Vikings and the Abbasid Caliphate, the third caliphate succeeding the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

    Delving into the topic, I explored various Arab travelers and their extensive premodern explorations. The most prolific pre-modern explorer was Ibn Battuta, a Muslim Moroccan who is believed to have traversed 117,000 km (72,000 miles)...

    https://twitter.com/historyinmemes/status/1724917855127216634

    The Ibn Battuta mentioned, though separated by culture, religion, and a millennium of history, is notably Leon adjacent.
    .."I set out alone, having neither fellow-traveler in whose companionship I might find cheer, nor caravan whose part I might join, but swayed by an overmastering impulse within me and a desire long-cherished in my bosom to visit these illustrious sanctuaries. So I braced my resolution to quit my dear ones, female and male, and forsook my home as birds forsake their nests...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    edited November 2023

    Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    Isnt it Rwanda touting itself for this line of business ? They are in discussion with several european countries.
    It is, but lots of governments debase themselves.

    Most Africans that I know resent the continent being regarded as a dumping ground.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261

    My boy Lord Cameron is in Ukraine.

    Probably for the best, as David Duke of Brexit has just taken the Tory polling down to 19%, and every appearance in the UK probably knocks off another point
  • So we also need to discuss Rishi Sunak recently met up with a far right extremist.

    This is what @elonmusk says he endorses That Jewish communities push hatred against white people. (This is a foundation of the Great Replacement Theory/"Jews will not replace us" extreme right).



    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1724945764835586193/photo/1
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Came across this last night.

    This ring was discovered on a woman buried around 1,200 years ago in Birka, an ancient Viking city located 30 km (19 miles) west of contemporary Stockholm, Sweden. What sets this ring apart is the inscription "for Allah" in Kufic Arabic, commonly used between the 8th and 10th centuries. It provides evidence of direct contact between Vikings and the Abbasid Caliphate, the third caliphate succeeding the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

    Delving into the topic, I explored various Arab travelers and their extensive premodern explorations. The most prolific pre-modern explorer was Ibn Battuta, a Muslim Moroccan who is believed to have traversed 117,000 km (72,000 miles)...

    https://twitter.com/historyinmemes/status/1724917855127216634

    The Ibn Battuta mentioned, though separated by culture, religion, and a millennium of history, is notably Leon adjacent.
    .."I set out alone, having neither fellow-traveler in whose companionship I might find cheer, nor caravan whose part I might join, but swayed by an overmastering impulse within me and a desire long-cherished in my bosom to visit these illustrious sanctuaries. So I braced my resolution to quit my dear ones, female and male, and forsook my home as birds forsake their nests...
    Wikipedia is yet more uncanny.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta
    ...Ibn Battuta's claim that a Maghrebian called "Abu'l Barakat the Berber" converted the Maldives to Islam is contradicted by an entirely different story which says that the Maldives were converted to Islam after miracles were performed by a Tabrizi named Maulana Shaikh Yusuf Shams-ud-din according to the Tarikh, the official history of the Maldives.

    Some scholars have also questioned whether he really visited China...


    ...Concubines were used by Ibn Battuta such as in Delhi. He wedded several women, divorced at least some of them, and in Damascus, Malabar, Delhi, Bukhara, and the Maldives had children by them or by concubines.[172] Ibn Battuta insulted Greeks as "enemies of Allah", drunkards and "swine eaters", while at the same time in Ephesus he purchased and used a Greek girl who was one of his many slave girls in his "harem" through Byzantium, Khorasan, Africa, and Palestine.[173] It was two decades before he again returned to find out what happened to one of his wives and child in Damascus...

    There's the bones of an article, maybe even a book in this for our resident knapper ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    They’ve made it worse with the IR35 changes as well, which is causing no end of problems in the professional contractor market.

    One PBer last night remarked that they’re turning down work to avoid the £100k trap and 60% marginal income tax rate, plus employer (13.8%) and employee (2%) NI that means more than 3/4 of your day rate goes to the government, and you’re no longer allowed to offset any expenses (travel, accommodation, subsistence) against tax.
  • Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    They have £140 million from HMG and unlikely to ever taken in an illegal immigrant.

    They must be pissing themselves laughing. Reverse colonialism, after a fashion.
    Good luck to them

    The french are laughing even more £500m

    So £640million for not a lot. That could buy 1 mile of HS2
    Surely if we want to break the law and make a statement, we could use refugees as forced labour on HS2. That would show them!
  • I saw some talking head on the TV railing against the EHCR saying no other country would accept the a foreign court ruling on what they can do.

    Poor dear obviously has never heard of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.

    Yes but that's not foreign, it's British!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    So we also need to discuss Rishi Sunak recently met up with a far right extremist.

    This is what @elonmusk says he endorses That Jewish communities push hatred against white people. (This is a foundation of the Great Replacement Theory/"Jews will not replace us" extreme right).



    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1724945764835586193/photo/1

    This is literally the conspiracy theory espoused by the white supremacist who massacred the Pittsburgh Tree of Life synagogue. Musk approves.

    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/1724910188195348828
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    I see that the number of failing Maternity units is now 2/3, significantly up over the year. Something that I have regularly pointed out on here over the years.

    My Trust is now one of these rated inadequate on safety, mostly due to inadequate staffing by midwives and doctors.

    BBC News - Most NHS maternity units not safe enough, says regulator
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67238868

    Not that I have much faith in the CQC, but this is a scandal that is systemic, and the numbers of lives lost makes the Post Office look like amateurs.
  • DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347

    The policy that's needed is to (a) strengthen the qualification criteria (b) put a cap on numbers and (c) deport anyone who doesn't satisfy (a) or (b) back to their country of origin.

    I don't think people care how it's done. The trouble is that Rwanda was an attempt to dodge (a) and manage (b) by showing them a real risk of (c) via another country - Rwanda.

    The only way it can really be done is through domestic law reform, lots of bilateral deals and regional/global deals to redo all the international laws& treaties that currently relate to asylum, which are effectively open-ended.

    There likely would be a considerable amount of international support for rewriting such treaties. The UK is certainly no outlier. But doing so would take hard work, as opposed to ineffectual ranting, and our politicians prefer the latter.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,905
    Good header TSE. Could become a classic.
  • Sandpit said:

    First rule of political Comms:

    The less you are actually going to do about X, the more and more loudly you have to talk about it.

    Rishi can't change the law, because the Lords can delay anything past the election. And unless the polls are very wrong or something crazy happens, then the policy dies.

    So he has to keep saying that the flights are coming soon, honest. Even if it's utterly dishonest to say so.

    I don't think it works well; wets hate the language and hard cases hate the inaction. But everything else is probably worse and the only way out us not to start from here.

    As someone (not me) very perceptibly pointed out yesterday, Rishi’s managing to upset pretty much everyone, by proposing such a system but then being unable to implement it. Not just on immigration either, but on a whole load of policy areas he’s talking like a right-winger but doing at best mushy centrism.
    Thing is, he does get some things right (he has cut small boats, eviscerated the SNP over trans and sorted out NI trade) but he doesn't get the credit for it.

    Politics is hard and he's just not wired that way.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    Isnt it Rwanda touting itself for this line of business ? They are in discussion with several european countries.
    It is, but lots of governments debase themselves.

    Most Africans that I know resent the continent being regarded as a dumping ground.

    Then maybe they should try representative democracy instead of corrupt strong men.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Good morning everybody!

    I wonder how significant last night’s rebellion by Jess Phillips, et cetera against Sir Keir Starmer‘s instructions was. If he’s got any sense, he’ll give it a day or so, Theon pquietly reappoint the rebels to their original positions.
    I really don’t see Sir Keir as a charismatic leader!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me but I don't remember losing my personal allowances under Brown, I think it was under Osborne. I certainly lost my CB under Osborne.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Of course we must follow international law. If we signed up for it. Or we could pass a domestic law in order to (or the government could simply) leave that law.

    We have just seen an example of this with Brexit.

    "International law" like "laws of war" is a chimera, used and abused at the whim of national governments.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me but I don't remember losing my personal allowances under Brown, I think it was under Osborne. I certainly lost my CB under Osborne.
    It was announced right at the end of the Labour government. So it was introduced under Labour.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Originally announced by Darling in 2009, and implemented a month before the 2010 election.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_allowance
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Originally announced by Darling in 2009, and implemented a month before the 2010 election.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_allowance
    So the first tax return I would have submitted caught by it would have been under Osborne. That explains it.
  • The rain could impact today's cricket world cup semi final.

    Anyone remember if South Africa have had a semi final impacted by rain in the past?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    edited November 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Came across this last night.

    This ring was discovered on a woman buried around 1,200 years ago in Birka, an ancient Viking city located 30 km (19 miles) west of contemporary Stockholm, Sweden. What sets this ring apart is the inscription "for Allah" in Kufic Arabic, commonly used between the 8th and 10th centuries. It provides evidence of direct contact between Vikings and the Abbasid Caliphate, the third caliphate succeeding the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

    Delving into the topic, I explored various Arab travelers and their extensive premodern explorations. The most prolific pre-modern explorer was Ibn Battuta, a Muslim Moroccan who is believed to have traversed 117,000 km (72,000 miles)...

    https://twitter.com/historyinmemes/status/1724917855127216634

    The Ibn Battuta mentioned, though separated by culture, religion, and a millennium of history, is notably Leon adjacent.
    .."I set out alone, having neither fellow-traveler in whose companionship I might find cheer, nor caravan whose part I might join, but swayed by an overmastering impulse within me and a desire long-cherished in my bosom to visit these illustrious sanctuaries. So I braced my resolution to quit my dear ones, female and male, and forsook my home as birds forsake their nests...
    Wikipedia is yet more uncanny.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta
    ...Ibn Battuta's claim that a Maghrebian called "Abu'l Barakat the Berber" converted the Maldives to Islam is contradicted by an entirely different story which says that the Maldives were converted to Islam after miracles were performed by a Tabrizi named Maulana Shaikh Yusuf Shams-ud-din according to the Tarikh, the official history of the Maldives.

    Some scholars have also questioned whether he really visited China...


    ...Concubines were used by Ibn Battuta such as in Delhi. He wedded several women, divorced at least some of them, and in Damascus, Malabar, Delhi, Bukhara, and the Maldives had children by them or by concubines.[172] Ibn Battuta insulted Greeks as "enemies of Allah", drunkards and "swine eaters", while at the same time in Ephesus he purchased and used a Greek girl who was one of his many slave girls in his "harem" through Byzantium, Khorasan, Africa, and Palestine.[173] It was two decades before he again returned to find out what happened to one of his wives and child in Damascus...

    There's the bones of an article, maybe even a book in this for our resident knapper ?
    I can remember Michael Wood’s programme about Eric Bloodaxe, which went into the links between vikings, and the various Islamic States at the time. The vikings sold them slaves on a massive scale, and got tons of silver in return.

    As Dominic Sandbrook says, it’s striking how popular vikings are, when they were murderers, rapists, and slavers on a huge scale (there’s even a slave trading game you can play, at a Danish museum on Vikings.)
  • DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I would argue for an adjustment in the marginal rate and its threshold as opposed to the cliff edges we currently have. Which is what it is; it is not a taper.

    To do anything else distorts incentives to work, although it might create uncomfortable headlines for our politicians who seem only interested in taking the short-term path of least resistance.
  • I wish someone could remind Lee Anderson about Margaret Thatcher's quote on the rule of law.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    edited November 2023
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Originally announced by Darling in 2009, and implemented a month before the 2010 election.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_allowance
    To be honest £100,000 was a lot of money in 2010 - it's the equivalent of £180,000 now...

    At the time only the top 1% of income tax payers were caught now it seems to be 3-4%...
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,323
    edited November 2023
    Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    Didn't they get a lot of lolly for doing nothing?

    Sounds reasonable to me.



    Edit: Oh, it seems others knew that too. :(
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    Isnt it Rwanda touting itself for this line of business ? They are in discussion with several european countries.
    It is, but lots of governments debase themselves.

    Most Africans that I know resent the continent being regarded as a dumping ground.

    Then maybe they should try representative democracy instead of corrupt strong men.
    So, you agree that Rwanda is not a safe destination?

    (The reality is that with the exception of the Sahel and Sudan, that democracy, albeit imperfect, is now the norm across Africa including Rwanda)
  • Aaron Bell MP was made a government whip the other day.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/people/aaron-bell

    But no-one has updated his Wikipedia page with the news he is climbing the greasy pole.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Bell_(politician)

    Great news.

    I'd vote for him in a trice, if only for his excellent contributions to this site.
  • Sean_F said:

    The policy that's needed is to (a) strengthen the qualification criteria (b) put a cap on numbers and (c) deport anyone who doesn't satisfy (a) or (b) back to their country of origin.

    I don't think people care how it's done. The trouble is that Rwanda was an attempt to dodge (a) and manage (b) by showing them a real risk of (c) via another country - Rwanda.

    The only way it can really be done is through domestic law reform, lots of bilateral deals and regional/global deals to redo all the international laws& treaties that currently relate to asylum, which are effectively open-ended.

    There likely would be a considerable amount of international support for rewriting such treaties. The UK is certainly no outlier. But doing so would take hard work, as opposed to ineffectual ranting, and our politicians prefer the latter.
    Like in any other walk of life the keys to success at the top are to listen, work hard and show the moral courage to lead.

    Politics is no different.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Originally announced by Darling in 2009, and implemented a month before the 2010 election.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_allowance
    So the first tax return I would have submitted caught by it would have been under Osborne. That explains it.
    There is a long history of the truly hideous tax increases being announced a year early so that people forget about them and they become background history before they suddenly appear...
  • I wish someone could remind Lee Anderson about Margaret Thatcher's quote on the rule of law.

    "Fuck Off" says 30p in response.

    He truly is a towering Tory intellect.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    Didn't they get a lot of lolly for doing nothing?

    Sounds reasonable to me.
    If I was Rwandan I would feel pretty insulted by some of the comments by our Supreme Court. The fundamental basis of their decision is that they are not to be trusted in how they might deal with our refugees.
  • eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Originally announced by Darling in 2009, and implemented a month before the 2010 election.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_allowance
    To be honest £100,000 was a lot of money in 2010 - it's the equivalent of £180,000 now...

    At the time only the top 1% of income tax payers were caught now it seems to be 3-4%...
    Fiscal drag on tax bands is a key driver in why our taxes are so high. Well, your taxes. I take only a small salary these days ;)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,307
    Foxy said:

    I see that the number of failing Maternity units is now 2/3, significantly up over the year. Something that I have regularly pointed out on here over the years.

    My Trust is now one of these rated inadequate on safety, mostly due to inadequate staffing by midwives and doctors.

    BBC News - Most NHS maternity units not safe enough, says regulator
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67238868

    Not that I have much faith in the CQC, but this is a scandal that is systemic, and the numbers of lives lost makes the Post Office look like amateurs.

    I am willing to bet serious money that many of the same failings appear in both scandals: arrogance, refusal to learn, attacking anyone raising concerns, callousness to those affected, shiny slogans and mission statements unaccompanied by action, second-rate staff, refusal to look at evidence, failure to implement recommendations, misallocation of resources/money and so on and on and on and on.

    From March 2022 - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2022/03/19/not-again/

    Note the last line. Since then there has been the scandal in Nottingham's maternity care - 1200 people affected I understand.

    The phrase "lessons learned" now makes me want to vomit.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited November 2023

    Sandpit said:

    First rule of political Comms:

    The less you are actually going to do about X, the more and more loudly you have to talk about it.

    Rishi can't change the law, because the Lords can delay anything past the election. And unless the polls are very wrong or something crazy happens, then the policy dies.

    So he has to keep saying that the flights are coming soon, honest. Even if it's utterly dishonest to say so.

    I don't think it works well; wets hate the language and hard cases hate the inaction. But everything else is probably worse and the only way out us not to start from here.

    As someone (not me) very perceptibly pointed out yesterday, Rishi’s managing to upset pretty much everyone, by proposing such a system but then being unable to implement it. Not just on immigration either, but on a whole load of policy areas he’s talking like a right-winger but doing at best mushy centrism.
    Thing is, he does get some things right (he has cut small boats, eviscerated the SNP over trans and sorted out NI trade) but he doesn't get the credit for it.

    Politics is hard and he's just not wired that way.
    He has had some successes and has taken a much more pragmatic view of relations with the EU . The WF , re-joining Horizon and even small issues in terms of the new policy on school trips from the EU . Unfortunately the boats issue is likely to send him over the edge . Much of the issues surrounding that were foreseeable . You can tell the desperation of getting a flight off before the election is now going to lead to a scorched earth approach.

    I expect things will end up back in the SC . Interestingly the new term we might see pop up mentioned by the BBCs Dominic Casciani is the nuclear option “ declaration of incompatibility “ .

    If that happens the government will be forced to either remove the UK from the ECHR or drop its boats policy . I expect at that point the Tories will implode , we’ll see a purge of Tory MPs who refuse to vote for that and then it will become part of the manifesto .
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Originally announced by Darling in 2009, and implemented a month before the 2010 election.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_allowance
    So the first tax return I would have submitted caught by it would have been under Osborne. That explains it.
    There is a long history of the truly hideous tax increases being announced a year early so that people forget about them and they become background history before they suddenly appear...
    I certainly remember in the early Osborne years it was one thing after another with the tax burden ever increasing and my standard of living gradually falling since any increases could not keep up. It affects me to this day as we had to cut back on pension contributions to balance the books (hence paying even more tax).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Aaron Bell MP was made a government whip the other day.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/people/aaron-bell

    But no-one has updated his Wikipedia page with the news he is climbing the greasy pole.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Bell_(politician)

    Great news.

    I'd vote for him in a trice, if only for his excellent contributions to this site.
    Nice enough bloke socially, but I wouldn't vote for anyone who backed Truss and now willing to whip for Sunaks erratic policy making.

    Pretty nailed on now to be back as a bookie within the year.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,905
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Rwanda scheme is another Tory failure. A headline gimmick that simultaneously offends the centrists for its callousness, and the headbangers for being ineffective.

    I am surprised Rwanda wanted any part of it. It is pretty offensive to regard Africa as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

    Isnt it Rwanda touting itself for this line of business ? They are in discussion with several european countries.
    It is, but lots of governments debase themselves.

    Most Africans that I know resent the continent being regarded as a dumping ground.

    According to 'factcheck' the only country to have had discussions with Rwanda is Denmark and that is purely for processing not dumping as in the Sunak/Braverman/Patel scheme
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239

    Sandpit said:

    First rule of political Comms:

    The less you are actually going to do about X, the more and more loudly you have to talk about it.

    Rishi can't change the law, because the Lords can delay anything past the election. And unless the polls are very wrong or something crazy happens, then the policy dies.

    So he has to keep saying that the flights are coming soon, honest. Even if it's utterly dishonest to say so.

    I don't think it works well; wets hate the language and hard cases hate the inaction. But everything else is probably worse and the only way out us not to start from here.

    As someone (not me) very perceptibly pointed out yesterday, Rishi’s managing to upset pretty much everyone, by proposing such a system but then being unable to implement it. Not just on immigration either, but on a whole load of policy areas he’s talking like a right-winger but doing at best mushy centrism.
    Thing is, he does get some things right (he has cut small boats, eviscerated the SNP over trans and sorted out NI trade) but he doesn't get the credit for it.

    Politics is hard and he's just not wired that way.
    Given that “eviscerating the SNP” almost entirely benefits Labour, thereby making it harder for Sunak to stay in power, yes, you may have a point.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Came across this last night.

    This ring was discovered on a woman buried around 1,200 years ago in Birka, an ancient Viking city located 30 km (19 miles) west of contemporary Stockholm, Sweden. What sets this ring apart is the inscription "for Allah" in Kufic Arabic, commonly used between the 8th and 10th centuries. It provides evidence of direct contact between Vikings and the Abbasid Caliphate, the third caliphate succeeding the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

    Delving into the topic, I explored various Arab travelers and their extensive premodern explorations. The most prolific pre-modern explorer was Ibn Battuta, a Muslim Moroccan who is believed to have traversed 117,000 km (72,000 miles)...

    https://twitter.com/historyinmemes/status/1724917855127216634

    The Ibn Battuta mentioned, though separated by culture, religion, and a millennium of history, is notably Leon adjacent.
    .."I set out alone, having neither fellow-traveler in whose companionship I might find cheer, nor caravan whose part I might join, but swayed by an overmastering impulse within me and a desire long-cherished in my bosom to visit these illustrious sanctuaries. So I braced my resolution to quit my dear ones, female and male, and forsook my home as birds forsake their nests...
    Wikipedia is yet more uncanny.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta
    ...Ibn Battuta's claim that a Maghrebian called "Abu'l Barakat the Berber" converted the Maldives to Islam is contradicted by an entirely different story which says that the Maldives were converted to Islam after miracles were performed by a Tabrizi named Maulana Shaikh Yusuf Shams-ud-din according to the Tarikh, the official history of the Maldives.

    Some scholars have also questioned whether he really visited China...


    ...Concubines were used by Ibn Battuta such as in Delhi. He wedded several women, divorced at least some of them, and in Damascus, Malabar, Delhi, Bukhara, and the Maldives had children by them or by concubines.[172] Ibn Battuta insulted Greeks as "enemies of Allah", drunkards and "swine eaters", while at the same time in Ephesus he purchased and used a Greek girl who was one of his many slave girls in his "harem" through Byzantium, Khorasan, Africa, and Palestine.[173] It was two decades before he again returned to find out what happened to one of his wives and child in Damascus...

    There's the bones of an article, maybe even a book in this for our resident knapper ?
    I can remember Michael Wood’s programme about Eric Bloodaxe, which went into the links between vikings, and the various Islamic States at the time. The vikings sold them slaves on a massive scale, and got tons of silver in return.

    As Dominic Sandbrook says, it’s striking how popular vikings are, when they were murderers, rapists, and slavers on a huge scale (there’s even a slave trading game you can play, at a Danish museum on Vikings.)
    There are tales of Celtic girls being taken as slaves to Iceland in Norse mythology. One or two of them, or their children, rose to quite high rank.
    Wasn’t there a big Viking slave market in Dublin?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,818
    edited November 2023
    Theres been an Intervention!

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/16/cost-of-living-crisis-businesses-poverty-winter-companies-charities-gordon-brown

    [Charity is the solution. Corporate, especially.]

    'Next week the chancellor should announce a root-and-branch review of universal credit if we are to address Britain’s long-term poverty crisis. But this winter, with a new coalition of compassion between companies and charities, we can at least begin to ease the sorrows of Britain’s left-behind millions, relieve a mounting public health crisis, and at last, as more businesses respond, show we really are all in this together.'
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me but I don't remember losing my personal allowances under Brown, I think it was under Osborne. I certainly lost my CB under Osborne.
    I think CB should be universal on principle so still claim it although obvs HMT claws it back as I am rich as Croessus.
  • @Cyclefree

    Left a question on your latest piece on your sitesite. It was prompted by watchng Warwick Tatfield's testimony yesterday.

    When you've a moment....
  • Nigelb said:

    So we also need to discuss Rishi Sunak recently met up with a far right extremist.

    This is what @elonmusk says he endorses That Jewish communities push hatred against white people. (This is a foundation of the Great Replacement Theory/"Jews will not replace us" extreme right).



    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1724945764835586193/photo/1

    This is literally the conspiracy theory espoused by the white supremacist who massacred the Pittsburgh Tree of Life synagogue. Musk approves.

    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/1724910188195348828
    The GRT has become a mainstream view among large sections of the right on both sides of the Atlantic. I've seen it getting airtime here, even. Fash is back in fashion.
  • nico679 said:

    Sandpit said:

    First rule of political Comms:

    The less you are actually going to do about X, the more and more loudly you have to talk about it.

    Rishi can't change the law, because the Lords can delay anything past the election. And unless the polls are very wrong or something crazy happens, then the policy dies.

    So he has to keep saying that the flights are coming soon, honest. Even if it's utterly dishonest to say so.

    I don't think it works well; wets hate the language and hard cases hate the inaction. But everything else is probably worse and the only way out us not to start from here.

    As someone (not me) very perceptibly pointed out yesterday, Rishi’s managing to upset pretty much everyone, by proposing such a system but then being unable to implement it. Not just on immigration either, but on a whole load of policy areas he’s talking like a right-winger but doing at best mushy centrism.
    Thing is, he does get some things right (he has cut small boats, eviscerated the SNP over trans and sorted out NI trade) but he doesn't get the credit for it.

    Politics is hard and he's just not wired that way.
    He has had some successes and has taken a much more pragmatic view of relations with the EU . The WF , re-joining Horizon and even small issues in terms of the new policy on school trips from the EU . Unfortunately the boats issue is likely to send him over the edge . Much of the issues surrounding that were foreseeable . You can tell the desperation of getting a flight off before the election is now going to lead to a scorched earth approach.

    I expect things will end up back in the SC . Interestingly the new term we might see pop up mentioned by the BBCs Dominic Casciani is the nuclear option “ declaration of incompatibility “ .

    If that happens the government will be forced to either remove the UK from the ECHR or drop its boats policy . I expect at that point the Tories will implode , we’ll see a purge of Tory MPs who refuse to vote for that and then it will become part of the manifesto .
    And no ECHR, no Windsor Agreement, which is arguably Rishi's best chance at a policy legacy.

    Yes, it may be technically possible, but is it a price worth paying?
  • Nigelb said:

    Came across this last night.

    This ring was discovered on a woman buried around 1,200 years ago in Birka, an ancient Viking city located 30 km (19 miles) west of contemporary Stockholm, Sweden. What sets this ring apart is the inscription "for Allah" in Kufic Arabic, commonly used between the 8th and 10th centuries. It provides evidence of direct contact between Vikings and the Abbasid Caliphate, the third caliphate succeeding the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

    Delving into the topic, I explored various Arab travelers and their extensive premodern explorations. The most prolific pre-modern explorer was Ibn Battuta, a Muslim Moroccan who is believed to have traversed 117,000 km (72,000 miles)...

    https://twitter.com/historyinmemes/status/1724917855127216634

    It wasn't just the Arabs who travelled extensively - the Vikings ended up a long way south, using the river system of Eastern Europe. I would strongly recommend Cat Jarman's River Kings for an excellent picture of their activity. https://www.waterstones.com/book/river-kings/cat-jarman/9780008353117
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Nigelb said:

    So we also need to discuss Rishi Sunak recently met up with a far right extremist.

    This is what @elonmusk says he endorses That Jewish communities push hatred against white people. (This is a foundation of the Great Replacement Theory/"Jews will not replace us" extreme right).



    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1724945764835586193/photo/1

    This is literally the conspiracy theory espoused by the white supremacist who massacred the Pittsburgh Tree of Life synagogue. Musk approves.

    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/1724910188195348828
    Musk also apparently called Zelensky a 'butcher' yesterday.

    The guy's as much a danger as Trump.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited November 2023
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Originally announced by Darling in 2009, and implemented a month before the 2010 election.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_allowance
    So the first tax return I would have submitted caught by it would have been under Osborne. That explains it.
    As has often been the case, tax rises announced a year early and applying from pretty much the date of the next election, so as to leave a banana-skin for the incoming government.

    As for the child benefit, that was one of Osborne’s ruses, which I thought at the time was a lot of effort to really annoy the middle classes - but it’s been allowed a decade of fiscal drag at the £50k limit, so it’s now affecting many of the skilled working classes as well.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,805

    Good morning everybody!

    I wonder how significant last night’s rebellion by Jess Phillips, et cetera against Sir Keir Starmer‘s instructions was. If he’s got any sense, he’ll give it a day or so, Theon pquietly reappoint the rebels to their original positions.
    I really don’t see Sir Keir as a charismatic leader!

    Its certainly a problem for him. His authority has been flouted by enough people to make it almost impossible to do much about it. The barrel of talent is dangerously low already. He can't afford to side line all of those who defied him last night.

    Starmer wanted to look, once again, as a government in waiting, responsible and a little dull, focused on the political realities. Despite all his sterling work in that direction it appears that quite a large proportion of the Labour party are not quite ready for that and the self indulgence developed in the Corbyn era persists. He will not be a happy bunny this morning.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Nice header title TSE, chapeau.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Nigelb said:

    So we also need to discuss Rishi Sunak recently met up with a far right extremist.

    This is what @elonmusk says he endorses That Jewish communities push hatred against white people. (This is a foundation of the Great Replacement Theory/"Jews will not replace us" extreme right).



    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1724945764835586193/photo/1

    This is literally the conspiracy theory espoused by the white supremacist who massacred the Pittsburgh Tree of Life synagogue. Musk approves.

    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/1724910188195348828
    Musk also apparently called Zelensky a 'butcher' yesterday.

    The guy's as much a danger as Trump.
    Someone called him the modern Ford on X in response to this - they meant it positively, but I would argue that it is true but also not good.
  • Foxy said:

    Aaron Bell MP was made a government whip the other day.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/people/aaron-bell

    But no-one has updated his Wikipedia page with the news he is climbing the greasy pole.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Bell_(politician)

    Great news.

    I'd vote for him in a trice, if only for his excellent contributions to this site.
    Nice enough bloke socially, but I wouldn't vote for anyone who backed Truss and now willing to whip for Sunaks erratic policy making.

    Pretty nailed on now to be back as a bookie within the year.
    Yes, I'm sure he's prepared for the inevitable.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    Foxy said:

    I see that the number of failing Maternity units is now 2/3, significantly up over the year. Something that I have regularly pointed out on here over the years.

    My Trust is now one of these rated inadequate on safety, mostly due to inadequate staffing by midwives and doctors.

    BBC News - Most NHS maternity units not safe enough, says regulator
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67238868

    Not that I have much faith in the CQC, but this is a scandal that is systemic, and the numbers of lives lost makes the Post Office look like amateurs.

    I understand the CQC has been solving their staffing issues by hiring ex police officers. The care home sector has found them very confrontational in their approach

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the number of failing Maternity units is now 2/3, significantly up over the year. Something that I have regularly pointed out on here over the years.

    My Trust is now one of these rated inadequate on safety, mostly due to inadequate staffing by midwives and doctors.

    BBC News - Most NHS maternity units not safe enough, says regulator
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67238868

    Not that I have much faith in the CQC, but this is a scandal that is systemic, and the numbers of lives lost makes the Post Office look like amateurs.

    I am willing to bet serious money that many of the same failings appear in both scandals: arrogance, refusal to learn, attacking anyone raising concerns, callousness to those affected, shiny slogans and mission statements unaccompanied by action, second-rate staff, refusal to look at evidence, failure to implement recommendations, misallocation of resources/money and so on and on and on and on.

    From March 2022 - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2022/03/19/not-again/

    Note the last line. Since then there has been the scandal in Nottingham's maternity care - 1200 people affected I understand.

    The phrase "lessons learned" now makes me want to vomit.
    Those things wouldn't surprise me at all, but fails to explain specifically why maternity as opposed to other departments. This is despite, or perhaps because of, liability insurance exceeding salary costs to maternity units.

    I need to be off shortly but there are reasons why maternity in particular fails in the UK.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    148grss said:

    So we also need to discuss Rishi Sunak recently met up with a far right extremist.

    This is what @elonmusk says he endorses That Jewish communities push hatred against white people. (This is a foundation of the Great Replacement Theory/"Jews will not replace us" extreme right).



    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1724945764835586193/photo/1

    Lots of far right wingers (e.g Marine le Pen, or Victor Orban) fall into this category, though - truly vile antisemitism that really is in line with Protocols or, indeed, Nazism - but because they support Israel they don't get the same level of scrutiny on it (and, indeed, will have people like Netanyahu as allies). This goes to another issue with the state of Israel as it is constructed; to those kinds of politicians its utility is not as a safe haven for the Jewish diaspora, a "homeland" in that sense, but an example (and justification) for their desire for their own ethnostates, a different "homeland" if you will. Their logic is, if the Jewish people can have one, why not us?

    I have said here multiple times how the Post-Modern Neo-Marxist nonsense of the Jordan Peterson's of the world is just Nazi Judeo Bolshevism repackaged - and that is what Musk is essentially endorsing. The idea that ((someone)) must be behind the bad things happening in the West and the "fall of white people" and that ((someone)) are The Jews.

    I doubt Musk will get the same scrutiny as the average random pro-Palestinian protester who calls for a ceasefire or an end to apartheid (and have very little power), despite the fact he is literally the richest man on the planet and meets with heads of states.
    youre all over the place now.

    The correct call is to demand

    Hamas release all hostages
    Hamas lay down their arms
    Hamas surrender

    Then all Gazans can have a safer life and the Israelis can have security
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me but I don't remember losing my personal allowances under Brown, I think it was under Osborne. I certainly lost my CB under
    Osborne.
    PA was definitely brown
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    On the hunt for the white shouldered Ibis

    Nigelb said:

    So we also need to discuss Rishi Sunak recently met up with a far right extremist.

    This is what @elonmusk says he endorses That Jewish communities push hatred against white people. (This is a foundation of the Great Replacement Theory/"Jews will not replace us" extreme right).



    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1724945764835586193/photo/1

    This is literally the conspiracy theory espoused by the white supremacist who massacred the Pittsburgh Tree of Life synagogue. Musk approves.

    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/1724910188195348828
    The GRT has become a mainstream view among large sections of the right on both sides of the Atlantic. I've seen it getting airtime here, even. Fash is back in fashion.
    It’s not a theory. Jewish thinkers have long been some of the most ardent proponents of multiculturalism - for the very sensible reason (in their eyes) that they are unlikely to be persecuted as a minority when there many minorities. And maybe no overwhelming majority. It makes sense if you are an oft-oppressed community

    Now they are seeing that multiculturalism has its downsides - big time

    This isn’t really disputed

    It only edges into GRT and fash when you go several steps further and claim this is all some mad plan by a secret cabal to “replace white people”
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the number of failing Maternity units is now 2/3, significantly up over the year. Something that I have regularly pointed out on here over the years.

    My Trust is now one of these rated inadequate on safety, mostly due to inadequate staffing by midwives and doctors.

    BBC News - Most NHS maternity units not safe enough, says regulator
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67238868

    Not that I have much faith in the CQC, but this is a scandal that is systemic, and the numbers of lives lost makes the Post Office look like amateurs.

    I am willing to bet serious money that many of the same failings appear in both scandals: arrogance, refusal to learn, attacking anyone raising concerns, callousness to those affected, shiny slogans and mission statements unaccompanied by action, second-rate staff, refusal to look at evidence, failure to implement recommendations, misallocation of resources/money and so on and on and on and on.

    From March 2022 - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2022/03/19/not-again/

    Note the last line. Since then there has been the scandal in Nottingham's maternity care - 1200 people affected I understand.

    The phrase "lessons learned" now makes me want to vomit.
    Those things wouldn't surprise me at all, but fails to explain specifically why maternity as opposed to other departments. This is despite, or perhaps because of, liability insurance exceeding salary costs to maternity units.

    I need to be off shortly but there are reasons why maternity in particular fails in the UK.
    Too many abortions ?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    For anyone interested Harry Cole's book on Liz Truss is only 99p today on a Kindle

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BDCSP4FG/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    148grss said:

    Nigelb said:

    So we also need to discuss Rishi Sunak recently met up with a far right extremist.

    This is what @elonmusk says he endorses That Jewish communities push hatred against white people. (This is a foundation of the Great Replacement Theory/"Jews will not replace us" extreme right).



    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1724945764835586193/photo/1

    This is literally the conspiracy theory espoused by the white supremacist who massacred the Pittsburgh Tree of Life synagogue. Musk approves.

    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/1724910188195348828
    Musk also apparently called Zelensky a 'butcher' yesterday.

    The guy's as much a danger as Trump.
    Someone called him the modern Ford on X in response to this - they meant it positively, but I would argue that it is true but also not good.
    I think anyone referring to Musk as 'The modern Ford' is well aware of the negative aspects of that as well.
  • Good morning everybody!

    I wonder how significant last night’s rebellion by Jess Phillips, et cetera against Sir Keir Starmer‘s instructions was. If he’s got any sense, he’ll give it a day or so, Theon pquietly reappoint the rebels to their original positions.
    I really don’t see Sir Keir as a charismatic leader!

    I just read Phillips' letter, and she's at pains to demonstrate that she's still in Starmer's camp. I actually quite like Jess Phillips.
  • Nigelb said:

    Came across this last night.

    This ring was discovered on a woman buried around 1,200 years ago in Birka, an ancient Viking city located 30 km (19 miles) west of contemporary Stockholm, Sweden. What sets this ring apart is the inscription "for Allah" in Kufic Arabic, commonly used between the 8th and 10th centuries. It provides evidence of direct contact between Vikings and the Abbasid Caliphate, the third caliphate succeeding the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

    Delving into the topic, I explored various Arab travelers and their extensive premodern explorations. The most prolific pre-modern explorer was Ibn Battuta, a Muslim Moroccan who is believed to have traversed 117,000 km (72,000 miles)...

    https://twitter.com/historyinmemes/status/1724917855127216634

    It wasn't just the Arabs who travelled extensively - the Vikings ended up a long way south, using the river system of Eastern Europe. I would strongly recommend Cat Jarman's River Kings for an excellent picture of their activity. https://www.waterstones.com/book/river-kings/cat-jarman/9780008353117
    Yep. The Viking Rus famously ended up as the Varengian Guard serving the Byzantine Emperors and others raided across the Caspian Sea to the coats of Persia.
  • Foxy said:

    Aaron Bell MP was made a government whip the other day.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/people/aaron-bell

    But no-one has updated his Wikipedia page with the news he is climbing the greasy pole.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Bell_(politician)

    Great news.

    I'd vote for him in a trice, if only for his excellent contributions to this site.
    Nice enough bloke socially, but I wouldn't vote for anyone who backed Truss and now willing to whip for Sunaks erratic policy making.

    Pretty nailed on now to be back as a bookie within the year.
    Bell is a Conservative, best known for attacking Boris (and for having more hair in his photograph than on telly).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    edited November 2023
    ignore
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    nico679 said:

    Sandpit said:

    First rule of political Comms:

    The less you are actually going to do about X, the more and more loudly you have to talk about it.

    Rishi can't change the law, because the Lords can delay anything past the election. And unless the polls are very wrong or something crazy happens, then the policy dies.

    So he has to keep saying that the flights are coming soon, honest. Even if it's utterly dishonest to say so.

    I don't think it works well; wets hate the language and hard cases hate the inaction. But everything else is probably worse and the only way out us not to start from here.

    As someone (not me) very perceptibly pointed out yesterday, Rishi’s managing to upset pretty much everyone, by proposing such a system but then being unable to implement it. Not just on immigration either, but on a whole load of policy areas he’s talking like a right-winger but doing at best mushy centrism.
    Thing is, he does get some things right (he has cut small boats, eviscerated the SNP over trans and sorted out NI trade) but he doesn't get the credit for it.

    Politics is hard and he's just not wired that way.
    He has had some successes and has taken a much more pragmatic view of relations with the EU . The WF , re-joining Horizon and even small issues in terms of the new policy on school trips from the EU . Unfortunately the boats issue is likely to send him over the edge . Much of the issues surrounding that were foreseeable . You can tell the desperation of getting a flight off before the election is now going to lead to a scorched earth approach.

    I expect things will end up back in the SC . Interestingly the new term we might see pop up mentioned by the BBCs Dominic Casciani is the nuclear option “ declaration of incompatibility “ .

    If that happens the government will be forced to either remove the UK from the ECHR or drop its boats policy . I expect at that point the Tories will implode , we’ll see a purge of Tory MPs who refuse to vote for that and then it will become part of the manifesto .
    And no ECHR, no Windsor Agreement, which is arguably Rishi's best chance at a policy legacy.

    Yes, it may be technically possible, but is it a price worth paying?
    I think no 10 is hoping that European countries will be reluctant to expel the UK from the ECHR so you end up in a stand off .

    If the UK is out of the court then big problems happen with NI, and the EU UK deal . Sunak knows the Tories will implode if he tries to leave the ECHR .
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that the number of failing Maternity units is now 2/3, significantly up over the year. Something that I have regularly pointed out on here over the years.

    My Trust is now one of these rated inadequate on safety, mostly due to inadequate staffing by midwives and doctors.

    BBC News - Most NHS maternity units not safe enough, says regulator
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67238868

    Not that I have much faith in the CQC, but this is a scandal that is systemic, and the numbers of lives lost makes the Post Office look like amateurs.

    I am willing to bet serious money that many of the same failings appear in both scandals: arrogance, refusal to learn, attacking anyone raising concerns, callousness to those affected, shiny slogans and mission statements unaccompanied by action, second-rate staff, refusal to look at evidence, failure to implement recommendations, misallocation of resources/money and so on and on and on and on.

    From March 2022 - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2022/03/19/not-again/

    Note the last line. Since then there has been the scandal in Nottingham's maternity care - 1200 people affected I understand.

    The phrase "lessons learned" now makes me want to vomit.
    Along with "we're the real victims, here."
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    edited November 2023
    148grss said:

    So we also need to discuss Rishi Sunak recently met up with a far right extremist.

    This is what @elonmusk says he endorses That Jewish communities push hatred against white people. (This is a foundation of the Great Replacement Theory/"Jews will not replace us" extreme right).



    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1724945764835586193/photo/1

    Lots of far right wingers (e.g Marine le Pen, or Victor Orban) fall into this category, though - truly vile antisemitism that really is in line with Protocols or, indeed, Nazism - but because they support Israel they don't get the same level of scrutiny on it (and, indeed, will have people like Netanyahu as allies). This goes to another issue with the state of Israel as it is constructed; to those kinds of politicians its utility is not as a safe haven for the Jewish diaspora, a "homeland" in that sense, but an example (and justification) for their desire for their own ethnostates, a different "homeland" if you will. Their logic is, if the Jewish people can have one, why not us?

    I have said here multiple times how the Post-Modern Neo-Marxist nonsense of the Jordan Peterson's of the world is just Nazi Judeo Bolshevism repackaged - and that is what Musk is essentially endorsing. The idea that ((someone)) must be behind the bad things happening in the West and the "fall of white people" and that ((someone)) are The Jews.

    I doubt Musk will get the same scrutiny as the average random pro-Palestinian protester who calls for a ceasefire or an end to apartheid (and have very little power), despite the fact he is literally the richest man on the planet and meets with heads of states.
    No you haven't explicitly said it here multiple times, although many of your statements are compatible with it (and are now illuminated by this underlying thesis). I keep saying this to people (Cicero, MoonRabbit, Stodge? etc), write this up into an article and send it in. Just laying down allusions in the comments is not as useful as it could be.
  • nico679 said:

    Sandpit said:

    First rule of political Comms:

    The less you are actually going to do about X, the more and more loudly you have to talk about it.

    Rishi can't change the law, because the Lords can delay anything past the election. And unless the polls are very wrong or something crazy happens, then the policy dies.

    So he has to keep saying that the flights are coming soon, honest. Even if it's utterly dishonest to say so.

    I don't think it works well; wets hate the language and hard cases hate the inaction. But everything else is probably worse and the only way out us not to start from here.

    As someone (not me) very perceptibly pointed out yesterday, Rishi’s managing to upset pretty much everyone, by proposing such a system but then being unable to implement it. Not just on immigration either, but on a whole load of policy areas he’s talking like a right-winger but doing at best mushy centrism.
    Thing is, he does get some things right (he has cut small boats, eviscerated the SNP over trans and sorted out NI trade) but he doesn't get the credit for it.

    Politics is hard and he's just not wired that way.
    He has had some successes and has taken a much more pragmatic view of relations with the EU . The WF , re-joining Horizon and even small issues in terms of the new policy on school trips from the EU . Unfortunately the boats issue is likely to send him over the edge . Much of the issues surrounding that were foreseeable . You can tell the desperation of getting a flight off before the election is now going to lead to a scorched earth approach.

    I expect things will end up back in the SC . Interestingly the new term we might see pop up mentioned by the BBCs Dominic Casciani is the nuclear option “ declaration of incompatibility “ .

    If that happens the government will be forced to either remove the UK from the ECHR or drop its boats policy . I expect at that point the Tories will implode , we’ll see a purge of Tory MPs who refuse to vote for that and then it will become part of the manifesto .
    I don't see it. Particularly in light of the ruling yesterday which made it clear that the Rwanda policy is unlawful not just because of the ECHR but because of many other international treaty obligations as well.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347

    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Came across this last night.

    This ring was discovered on a woman buried around 1,200 years ago in Birka, an ancient Viking city located 30 km (19 miles) west of contemporary Stockholm, Sweden. What sets this ring apart is the inscription "for Allah" in Kufic Arabic, commonly used between the 8th and 10th centuries. It provides evidence of direct contact between Vikings and the Abbasid Caliphate, the third caliphate succeeding the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

    Delving into the topic, I explored various Arab travelers and their extensive premodern explorations. The most prolific pre-modern explorer was Ibn Battuta, a Muslim Moroccan who is believed to have traversed 117,000 km (72,000 miles)...

    https://twitter.com/historyinmemes/status/1724917855127216634

    The Ibn Battuta mentioned, though separated by culture, religion, and a millennium of history, is notably Leon adjacent.
    .."I set out alone, having neither fellow-traveler in whose companionship I might find cheer, nor caravan whose part I might join, but swayed by an overmastering impulse within me and a desire long-cherished in my bosom to visit these illustrious sanctuaries. So I braced my resolution to quit my dear ones, female and male, and forsook my home as birds forsake their nests...
    Wikipedia is yet more uncanny.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta
    ...Ibn Battuta's claim that a Maghrebian called "Abu'l Barakat the Berber" converted the Maldives to Islam is contradicted by an entirely different story which says that the Maldives were converted to Islam after miracles were performed by a Tabrizi named Maulana Shaikh Yusuf Shams-ud-din according to the Tarikh, the official history of the Maldives.

    Some scholars have also questioned whether he really visited China...


    ...Concubines were used by Ibn Battuta such as in Delhi. He wedded several women, divorced at least some of them, and in Damascus, Malabar, Delhi, Bukhara, and the Maldives had children by them or by concubines.[172] Ibn Battuta insulted Greeks as "enemies of Allah", drunkards and "swine eaters", while at the same time in Ephesus he purchased and used a Greek girl who was one of his many slave girls in his "harem" through Byzantium, Khorasan, Africa, and Palestine.[173] It was two decades before he again returned to find out what happened to one of his wives and child in Damascus...

    There's the bones of an article, maybe even a book in this for our resident knapper ?
    I can remember Michael Wood’s programme about Eric Bloodaxe, which went into the links between vikings, and the various Islamic States at the time. The vikings sold them slaves on a massive scale, and got tons of silver in return.

    As Dominic Sandbrook says, it’s striking how popular vikings are, when they were murderers, rapists, and slavers on a huge scale (there’s even a slave trading game you can play, at a Danish museum on Vikings.)
    There are tales of Celtic girls being taken as slaves to Iceland in Norse mythology. One or two of them, or their children, rose to quite high rank.
    Wasn’t there a big Viking slave market in Dublin?
    Studies of male and female line DNA bear that out. Dublin was a huge slave market in the 10th century.
  • viewcode said:

    148grss said:

    So we also need to discuss Rishi Sunak recently met up with a far right extremist.

    This is what @elonmusk says he endorses That Jewish communities push hatred against white people. (This is a foundation of the Great Replacement Theory/"Jews will not replace us" extreme right).



    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1724945764835586193/photo/1

    Lots of far right wingers (e.g Marine le Pen, or Victor Orban) fall into this category, though - truly vile antisemitism that really is in line with Protocols or, indeed, Nazism - but because they support Israel they don't get the same level of scrutiny on it (and, indeed, will have people like Netanyahu as allies). This goes to another issue with the state of Israel as it is constructed; to those kinds of politicians its utility is not as a safe haven for the Jewish diaspora, a "homeland" in that sense, but an example (and justification) for their desire for their own ethnostates, a different "homeland" if you will. Their logic is, if the Jewish people can have one, why not us?

    I have said here multiple times how the Post-Modern Neo-Marxist nonsense of the Jordan Peterson's of the world is just Nazi Judeo Bolshevism repackaged - and that is what Musk is essentially endorsing. The idea that ((someone)) must be behind the bad things happening in the West and the "fall of white people" and that ((someone)) are The Jews.

    I doubt Musk will get the same scrutiny as the average random pro-Palestinian protester who calls for a ceasefire or an end to apartheid (and have very little power), despite the fact he is literally the richest man on the planet and meets with heads of states.
    No you haven't explicitly said it here multiple times, although many of your statements are compatible with it (and are now illuminated by this underlying thesis). I keep saying this to people (Cicero, MoonRabbit, Stodge? etc), write this up into an article and send it in. Just laying down allusions in the comments is not as useful as it could be.
    I am afraid taht whilst I agree with 148grss on some things, they do have a tendancy to drift into some rather wild and wooly conspiracy theories which don't hold up to much scrutiny.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    South Africa, 2-1 in the second over one of the main!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    edited November 2023

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT - the Tories have had 14 years to sort out the £100k tax trap, and have done precisely nothing about, instead preferring to tinker around with corporation tax and the headline top rate. In fact, in some respects they made it worse by creating a new £50k tax trap.

    It's no wonder their base has haemorrhaged.

    That's not accurate because they created it in the first place. It was a central plank of Osborne's "broadest shoulders" approach to filling the chasm created by the collapse of financial services money.

    To me, and I have suffered under it for many years, it is no more appalling than the abatements and tapering that those with in work benefits suffer under somewhat further down the salary scale. Whenever you have a change in the marginal rate it is inevitably going to be higher than the rates on either side of it. The only alternative to a taper is a cliff edge. Not sure that is better.
    I thought it was originally the work of Brown? Or have I been hoodwinked by Tory propaganda?
    Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me but I don't remember losing my personal allowances under Brown, I think it was under Osborne. I certainly lost my CB under Osborne.
    It was announced right at the end of the Labour government. So it was introduced under Labour.
    Indeed it was, and it was a mistake. If only the Tories had been in power since 2009 so that they could have fixed it, eh?

    For what it's worth, I think any income or benefit rules that have high marginal rates should be addressed. See also the 55% effective rate for low paid earners on UC, for whom the effect is much more painful than the £100k tax cliff ever was for me when I was impacted through the 2010s
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989

    Foxy said:

    Aaron Bell MP was made a government whip the other day.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/people/aaron-bell

    But no-one has updated his Wikipedia page with the news he is climbing the greasy pole.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Bell_(politician)

    Great news.

    I'd vote for him in a trice, if only for his excellent contributions to this site.
    Nice enough bloke socially, but I wouldn't vote for anyone who backed Truss and now willing to whip for Sunaks erratic policy making.

    Pretty nailed on now to be back as a bookie within the year.
    Bell is a Conservative
    No place in the current Tory Party then
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    Now we’re on the hunt for the Ruby-cheeked Sunbird


  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    If the UK puts an Act of Parliament through which contradicts its international obligations in terms of rights then its likely to end up back at the SC .

    The SC can’t interfere with that Act , but could issue a “ declaration of incompatibility “ .

    I have my doubts that the HOL will block legislation even though it can constitutionally as the Rwanda policy was not a manifesto commitment .
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    edited November 2023

    South Africa, 2-1 in the second over one of the main!

    Sounds like english conditions out there - ball moving, Bavuma out of nick.. possibility of DRS perhaps... Aus probably did themselves a favour losing the toss.
This discussion has been closed.