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Have a good cry Argentina, you have earned it – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited November 2023 in General
imageHave a good cry Argentina, you have earned it – politicalbetting.com

In the UK we can sometimes get carried away demonising our politicians. But let’s be honest neither Rishi Sunak nor Keir Starmer are going to frighten anyone, they are as scary as a cup of hot Horlicks at bedtime. Argentina of the other hand has decided to show the world what scary looks like.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    2nd, like Argentina in the Falklands.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023

    Warning: a graphic description of some of what Hamas did:

    "Another screening by Israeli authorities for foreign journalists. Here’s what we saw and heard:"

    https://twitter.com/mrconfino/status/1724385046583234841

    Apologists will soon be arguing over some tiny detail in that...well it was only one or two cases....perhaps those pulling down posters of the hostages need to see these films.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Warning: a graphic description of some of what Hamas did:

    "Another screening by Israeli authorities for foreign journalists. Here’s what we saw and heard:"

    https://twitter.com/mrconfino/status/1724385046583234841

    Apologists will soon be arguing over some tiny detail in that...well it was only one or two cases....
    What Galloway and others are doing is quite sickening. It's absolutely the same as Holocaust denial. And frankly, it's why I posted that link. And highlighting what Hamas did, does not mean that what Israel is doing is right.
  • Exclusive

    Keir Starmer is preparing to sack any Labour shadow minister who backs the ceasefire amendment tomorrow

    Leadership thinks 10+ sackings may be needed

    Labour source: “Support for this motion is not compatible with serving on the front bench”


    https://x.com/benrileysmith/status/1724437869291360748?s=20
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    Milei saying he was a fan of Thatcher probably isn't going to help his campaign

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/13/javier-milei-argentina-thatcher-praise-falklands-veterans
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372
    "Stop the boats"

    I do not have an issue with this, personally, but it hardly reeks of a determination to stop the boats.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/increasing-number-of-asylum-seekers-being-granted-work-permits/ar-AA1jSZOO?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=0440c2eb688046c08fa00b058054d4a5&ei=13
  • Interesting header - at the turn of the last century Argentina was one of the richest countries on the planet - far richer than Australia, for example. In South America there is no love lost for them - 3 jokes:

    Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and think they're English.

    How do you make your fortune in Argentina? Buy an Argentinian for what he's worth, and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.

    Contract to build a bridge:

    German contractor: $60m: $20m for design, $20m for materials, $20m for construction
    Japanese contractor: $90m: $30m for design, $30m for materials, $30m for construction
    Argentine Contractor: $180m: $60m for you, $60m for me and we'll get the Germans to build it.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,786
    Nice thread.
    Obviously in theory I'd be voting for the libertarian over the Peronist. But Jeez, it would take nerves of steel to do so when you're talking about your own immediate livelihood rather than just what-would-work-in-theory. The status quo is always the safe option.
    Still, maybe Argentina has been screwed enough by Peronism that voters have little left to lose.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    edited November 2023
    CatMan said:

    Milei saying he was a fan of Thatcher probably isn't going to help his campaign

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/13/javier-milei-argentina-thatcher-praise-falklands-veterans

    A quick trip to Wikipedia gives a complicated picture - fiscally sound, perhaps, but also a bit of a loon:
    Politically, Milei has been variously described as far-right, ultraconservative, right-wing libertarian, and ultraliberal. Despite this, he identifies as a liberal, aligning specifically with minarchist and anarcho-capitalist principles. His views distinguish him in the Argentine political landscape and have garnered both public attention and political reactions. He has proposed the abolition of the Central Bank of Argentina,[6] which would result in a de facto dollarized economy, and a comprehensive overhaul of the country's fiscal and structural policies. Milei strongly opposes abortion, even in cases of rape,[7] and has suggested a referendum to reconsider the 2020 law (Voluntary Interruption of Pregnancy Bill) that legalized it.[8] His support for freedom of choice on topics, such as drugs, prostitution, marriage, sexual preference, and gender identity, have been contrasted to his opposition to abortion and euthanasia.

    Beyond his professional and political life, Milei is known for his flamboyant personality, distinctive personal style, and strong media presence, both domestically and internationally. He criticizes comprehensive sex education in schools as a form of brainwashing, expressed skepticism towards COVID-19 vaccines, supports civilian firearm ownership, proposes to legalize the sale of human organs, promotes the far-right Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory, engages in climate change denial, and wants to restrict immigration of criminals...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
  • I suppose the other problem is that Milei's "painful adjustment to a different economy" is only the best possible result if he is chosen. It depends on his plans actually working and there is certainly no gaurantee of that. There are lots of other posible outcomes which could be considerably worse than just painful adjustment.

    If I was Argentinian I think I would probably take the chance on Milei's new vision after so many decades of failure by the usual suspects but it could so easily all go horribly wrong.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758
    Interesting header:

    It is seemingly odd that almost all (if not all) South American countries have struggled to find a good stable governmental and economic platform. There are no compelling reasons why they should struggle as far as I can see. I suppose that all of Europe wrestled with this for many centuries, and went step by step, and didn't leap to where we are now.

    I'd take one issue,

    "Rishi Sunak nor Keir Starmer are going to frighten anyone, they are as scary as a cup of hot Horlicks at bedtime"

    It's not so long ago we had Boris vs Corbyn - I think a fairer comparison.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,129
    edited November 2023
    Thanks for the header, Alan. You've got to plump for continued decline over a painful readjustment to a new economy, IMO, since there's no guarantee on the latter that the pain will lead to gain. The new economy might be worse than the old one and looking at the rather fruity character offering that route, I make that outcome the favourite. But who cares what I think, it's the Argentinian electorate who'll be deciding and somewhat thrillingly per betfair this is a dead straight 50/50, even money the pair. Ooo.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    Canadian peace activist Vivian Silver, who went missing after Hamas attack, has died.
    https://twitter.com/CTVNews/status/1724207517234860529?

    Went missing / has died......makes it sound like she went for a hike in the mountains, slipped and fell down, was recovered off the mountain, but died later in hospital.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    Argentina seem to go bust every few years.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    edited November 2023

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    edited November 2023

    Exclusive

    Keir Starmer is preparing to sack any Labour shadow minister who backs the ceasefire amendment tomorrow

    Leadership thinks 10+ sackings may be needed

    Labour source: “Support for this motion is not compatible with serving on the front bench”


    https://x.com/benrileysmith/status/1724437869291360748?s=20

    If that wording is accurate, I'd guess abstention may be a compromise position that wouldn't lead to being sacked.
  • FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Agree with this. I have long held that the Nation State is the best guarantee of democracy and stability for the people living within its boundaries. But that does not mean that any individual Nation State has a right to continue to exist if that is not what the people want. It can either merge into a larger nation state or split into a number of smaller ones that reflect the wishes of its communities.

    I do think that a set of very basic international rules - such as those covered by the war crimes and crimes against humanity laws which have been discussing - should also exist and Nation States should be held to account against them. This should, in theory at least, offer the sorts of protection we want to see for minorities, whther they are religious, racial or gender based.
  • Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    Scott_xP said:

    @benrileysmith

    🚨Exclusive

    Keir Starmer is preparing to sack any Labour shadow minister who backs the ceasefire amendment tomorrow

    Leadership thinks 10+ sackings may be needed

    Labour source: “Support for this motion is not compatible with serving on the front bench”

    Fair play to Starmer, he’s played a blinder on this conflict.

    Although he’s also been quite lucky, that other political events are keeping the Labour civil war off the front pages.
    Indeed apart from the reshuffle, CPI numbers and Rwanda decision are likely to generate the headlines tomorrow.

    Keir taking a firm line on this issue with his MPs can only, rightly, be good for him
  • Exclusive

    Keir Starmer is preparing to sack any Labour shadow minister who backs the ceasefire amendment tomorrow

    Leadership thinks 10+ sackings may be needed

    Labour source: “Support for this motion is not compatible with serving on the front bench”


    https://x.com/benrileysmith/status/1724437869291360748?s=20

    If that wording is accurate, I'd guess abstention may be a compromise position that wouldn't lead to being sacked.
    Number of MPs find themselves locked in the toilets....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    Omnium said:

    Interesting header:

    It is seemingly odd that almost all (if not all) South American countries have struggled to find a good stable governmental and economic platform. There are no compelling reasons why they should struggle as far as I can see. I suppose that all of Europe wrestled with this for many centuries, and went step by step, and didn't leap to where we are now.

    I'd take one issue,

    "Rishi Sunak nor Keir Starmer are going to frighten anyone, they are as scary as a cup of hot Horlicks at bedtime"

    It's not so long ago we had Boris vs Corbyn - I think a fairer comparison.

    Generally Latin America has decent governments compared to the past, with the exception of Venezueala. All others are democracies in varying degrees. 50 years ago many were dictatorships throwing dissidents out of helicopters or shooting them in football stadiums.

    Sure they have economic and social discontents, but so does everywhere else, more or less.

    As Britain slides increasingly towards our own Peronism and corruption we shouldn't point the finger too much.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    CatMan said:

    Milei saying he was a fan of Thatcher probably isn't going to help his campaign

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/13/javier-milei-argentina-thatcher-praise-falklands-veterans

    Milei at least has some ideas to revive the Argentine economy and is not pushing the Falklands issue very hard either, saying Falkland Islanders themselves have the final say and Argentina needs to focus on its domestic problems
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908
    edited November 2023

    Last time we had a Foreign Secretary in the Lords Argentina invaded The Falklands.

    Old Etonian too.

    And the war was won and the Tories got a big poll bounce to win the next election by a landslide
  • HYUFD said:

    Last time we had a Foreign Secretary in the Lords Argentina invaded The Falklands.

    Old Etonian too.

    And the war was won and the Tories got a big poll bounce to win the next election by a landslide
    I'm not expecting a 144 majority for CON next year! 😈
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    I suppose the other problem is that Milei's "painful adjustment to a different economy" is only the best possible result if he is chosen. It depends on his plans actually working and there is certainly no gaurantee of that. There are lots of other posible outcomes which could be considerably worse than just painful adjustment.

    If I was Argentinian I think I would probably take the chance on Milei's new vision after so many decades of failure by the usual suspects but it could so easily all go horribly wrong.

    The last similar experiment has its upsides, and downsides..
    https://www.promarket.org/2021/09/12/chicago-boys-chile-friedman-neoliberalism/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Agree with this. I have long held that the Nation State is the best guarantee of democracy and stability for the people living within its boundaries. But that does not mean that any individual Nation State has a right to continue to exist if that is not what the people want. It can either merge into a larger nation state or split into a number of smaller ones that reflect the wishes of its communities.

    I do think that a set of very basic international rules - such as those covered by the war crimes and crimes against humanity laws which have been discussing - should also exist and Nation States should be held to account against them. This should, in theory at least, offer the sorts of protection we want to see for minorities, whther they are religious, racial or gender based.
    In theory fine, in reality the League of Nations didn't offer a great deal of protection for Jews in Germany once the Nazis too over.

    Even Ukraine has been invaded with only some sanctions and weapons supplies to contain Putin, otherwise it is on its own
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    Argentina has been run terribly since Peron came to power (and possibly, before that).
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    Despite the gloom about Argentina in the fine header, we remain envious of that country. They hold the World Cup - something England can only dream of.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,070
    edited November 2023
    @Alanbrooke
    (same review as usual: well written, interesting to read, nothing to do with betting... :) )

    Thank you for the article. If you or others would like further details, here is an interesting link:

    "Why Argentina is not rich", CaspianReport, YouTube, Oct 11, 2022, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu22RNjjrG0
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549

    Interesting header - at the turn of the last century Argentina was one of the richest countries on the planet - far richer than Australia, for example. In South America there is no love lost for them - 3 jokes:

    Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and think they're English.

    How do you make your fortune in Argentina? Buy an Argentinian for what he's worth, and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.

    Contract to build a bridge:

    German contractor: $60m: $20m for design, $20m for materials, $20m for construction
    Japanese contractor: $90m: $30m for design, $30m for materials, $30m for construction
    Argentine Contractor: $180m: $60m for you, $60m for me and we'll get the Germans to build it.

    Has anyone been to Argentina?
  • Exclusive

    Keir Starmer is preparing to sack any Labour shadow minister who backs the ceasefire amendment tomorrow

    Leadership thinks 10+ sackings may be needed

    Labour source: “Support for this motion is not compatible with serving on the front bench”


    https://x.com/benrileysmith/status/1724437869291360748?s=20

    If that wording is accurate, I'd guess abstention may be a compromise position that wouldn't lead to being sacked.
    Number of MPs find themselves locked in the toilets....
    The BBC thinks Labour might put its own motion.

    Keir Starmer considers Labour Gaza conflict motion
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67417726
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Interesting header:

    It is seemingly odd that almost all (if not all) South American countries have struggled to find a good stable governmental and economic platform. There are no compelling reasons why they should struggle as far as I can see. I suppose that all of Europe wrestled with this for many centuries, and went step by step, and didn't leap to where we are now.

    I'd take one issue,

    "Rishi Sunak nor Keir Starmer are going to frighten anyone, they are as scary as a cup of hot Horlicks at bedtime"

    It's not so long ago we had Boris vs Corbyn - I think a fairer comparison.

    Generally Latin America has decent governments compared to the past, with the exception of Venezueala. All others are democracies in varying degrees. 50 years ago many were dictatorships throwing dissidents out of helicopters or shooting them in football stadiums.

    Sure they have economic and social discontents, but so does everywhere else, more or less.

    As Britain slides increasingly towards our own Peronism and corruption we shouldn't point the finger too much.

    Decent is doing some seriously heavy lifting there.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    Omnium said:

    Interesting header:

    It is seemingly odd that almost all (if not all) South American countries have struggled to find a good stable governmental and economic platform. There are no compelling reasons why they should struggle as far as I can see. I suppose that all of Europe wrestled with this for many centuries, and went step by step, and didn't leap to where we are now.

    I'd take one issue,

    "Rishi Sunak nor Keir Starmer are going to frighten anyone, they are as scary as a cup of hot Horlicks at bedtime"

    It's not so long ago we had Boris vs Corbyn - I think a fairer comparison.

    Have you ever tried dealing with them in a business sense ? I can't go into details, but as a continent (Argentina is one of the worst offenders) they're about as likely to follow globally accepted business practices as Indian cos are to have EU rated site health and safety !
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    HYUFD said:

    CatMan said:

    Milei saying he was a fan of Thatcher probably isn't going to help his campaign

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/13/javier-milei-argentina-thatcher-praise-falklands-veterans

    Milei at least has some ideas to revive the Argentine economy and is not pushing the Falklands issue very hard either, saying Falkland Islanders themselves have the final say and Argentina needs to focus on its domestic problems
    As global energy markets switch to renewables, that is removing one of the incentives to squabble over the Falklands. Argentina has some of the best territory on the planet for onshore wind, and could be something of a renewables superpower were they seriously to develop it.

    That doesn't require a particular green government, just one that recognises the competitive price advantage for them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Interesting header:

    It is seemingly odd that almost all (if not all) South American countries have struggled to find a good stable governmental and economic platform. There are no compelling reasons why they should struggle as far as I can see. I suppose that all of Europe wrestled with this for many centuries, and went step by step, and didn't leap to where we are now.

    I'd take one issue,

    "Rishi Sunak nor Keir Starmer are going to frighten anyone, they are as scary as a cup of hot Horlicks at bedtime"

    It's not so long ago we had Boris vs Corbyn - I think a fairer comparison.

    Generally Latin America has decent governments compared to the past, with the exception of Venezueala. All others are democracies in varying degrees. 50 years ago many were dictatorships throwing dissidents out of helicopters or shooting them in football stadiums.

    Sure they have economic and social discontents, but so does everywhere else, more or less.

    As Britain slides increasingly towards our own Peronism and corruption we shouldn't point the finger too much.

    Decent is doing some seriously heavy lifting there.
    Merely being a bit rubbish is a definite step up from dictatorship and death squads for dissidents. Unless you are a Suella supporter of course...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Interesting header - at the turn of the last century Argentina was one of the richest countries on the planet - far richer than Australia, for example. In South America there is no love lost for them - 3 jokes:

    Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and think they're English.

    How do you make your fortune in Argentina? Buy an Argentinian for what he's worth, and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.

    Contract to build a bridge:

    German contractor: $60m: $20m for design, $20m for materials, $20m for construction
    Japanese contractor: $90m: $30m for design, $30m for materials, $30m for construction
    Argentine Contractor: $180m: $60m for you, $60m for me and we'll get the Germans to build it.

    Has anyone been to Argentina?
    Yes - on my way to the Falklands and the Antarctic Peninsula - sailed from Ushuaia after a stop in Buenos Aires.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Omnium said:

    Interesting header:

    It is seemingly odd that almost all (if not all) South American countries have struggled to find a good stable governmental and economic platform. There are no compelling reasons why they should struggle as far as I can see. I suppose that all of Europe wrestled with this for many centuries, and went step by step, and didn't leap to where we are now.

    I'd take one issue,

    "Rishi Sunak nor Keir Starmer are going to frighten anyone, they are as scary as a cup of hot Horlicks at bedtime"

    It's not so long ago we had Boris vs Corbyn - I think a fairer comparison.

    Generally Latin America has decent governments compared to the past, with the exception of Venezueala. All others are democracies in varying degrees. 50 years ago many were dictatorships throwing dissidents out of helicopters or shooting them in football stadiums.

    Sure they have economic and social discontents, but so does everywhere else, more or less.

    As Britain slides increasingly towards our own Peronism and corruption we shouldn't point the finger too much.

    Decent is doing some seriously heavy lifting there.
    Merely being a bit rubbish is a definite step up from dictatorship and death squads for dissidents. Unless you are a Suella supporter of course...
    An improvement yes, a bit rubbish, again you are being incredibly generous. Time and time again we find so many of the top officials are connected to cartels or the street gangs, corruption is just every day cost of doing business.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    Sean_F said:

    Argentina has been run terribly since Peron came to power (and possibly, before that).

    A good example of why populism doesn't work, in this case left-wing populism.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Andy_JS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Argentina has been run terribly since Peron came to power (and possibly, before that).

    A good example of why populism doesn't work, in this case left-wing populism.
    Aren't you an acolyte of Matt Goodwin? The pseudo-academic embodiment of rightwing populism.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,137
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting header - at the turn of the last century Argentina was one of the richest countries on the planet - far richer than Australia, for example. In South America there is no love lost for them - 3 jokes:

    Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and think they're English.

    How do you make your fortune in Argentina? Buy an Argentinian for what he's worth, and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.

    Contract to build a bridge:

    German contractor: $60m: $20m for design, $20m for materials, $20m for construction
    Japanese contractor: $90m: $30m for design, $30m for materials, $30m for construction
    Argentine Contractor: $180m: $60m for you, $60m for me and we'll get the Germans to build it.

    Has anyone been to Argentina?
    I've been - very briefly - to Buenos Aires.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,149
    edited November 2023
    On topic, Peronism has nobbled Argentina for a hell of a lot longer than "the last couple of decades" (interspersed by periods of horrendous military dictatorship and the odd brief flirtation with sanity).

    A century ago, the phrase "he's as rich as an Argentine" was in common usage to describe anyone who was obscenely wealthy. Not any more.

    I'd also dispute from this article the suggestion Milei offers much of a break from the past. He's a slightly different type of swivel-eyed populist loon from the established, Peronist kind. He's not coherent - the only vaguely sane choice was knocked out in Round 1.
  • Excited to share @GoogleDeepMind’s newest AI model GraphCast: the most accurate 10-day global weather forecasting system in the world. GraphCast can also offer earlier warnings of extreme weather events, including the path of hurricanes. In @Science today

    https://twitter.com/demishassabis/status/1724452655454466489?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618
    Foxy said:

    As Britain slides increasingly towards our own Peronism and corruption we shouldn't point the finger too much.

    You've noticed the signs in Starmer too?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Fascinating header. Have been trying to follow for a while, but the foreign reporting in our press is now god awful*.

    I would say something has to give, but then it did the last time they defaulted and they just returned to type.

    *There was a time when the Times and the Telegraph would have had a man out there for this. Back in the days when I read the Telegraph for its foreign news, which felt a different animal from the Tory front end.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    I wonder if a Labour rebellion and sackings increases the chance of a Corbyn run in London as a way of giving his mob a national platform? He could win if he stood.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,372

    Argentina seem to go bust every few years.

    Like a few local home improvement companies.

    Soon to be Argentina Enterprises Ltd
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    FPT:

    Sadly one more victim of Hamas's atrocity has been found.

    https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1724199460215865617

    I mean, looking at her, she was obviously a member of the IDF, wasn't she?

    Other "peace activists" might want to consider that Hamas don't care if you're a peace activist. They'll kill you anyway.

    The Israeli military also has form for killing peace activists, e.g:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

    Hamas and the IDF are two cheeks of the same fetid arse.
    That's quite a crass comparison. I don't for one moment believe the iDF 'deliberately' ran Rachel Corrie over; those beasts are rather lumbering and have quite poor views at the best of times (even in a 'normal', unarmoured bulldozer). She put herself into danger, thinking Arthur Dent had a good idea. It shouldn't have happened, but you don't muck about around heavy machinery.

    Whereas the people killed by Hamas were killed as part of a mass atrocity. There is a *massive* difference.

    Incidentally, there was an interesting article many, many moons ago called something like "A tale of two Rachels." It was about the way Rachel Corrie was celebrated and mourned, whilst another Rachel, blown up by a Palestinian bomber on a bus, was forgotten.



  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,149
    edited November 2023

    Exclusive

    Keir Starmer is preparing to sack any Labour shadow minister who backs the ceasefire amendment tomorrow

    Leadership thinks 10+ sackings may be needed

    Labour source: “Support for this motion is not compatible with serving on the front bench”


    https://x.com/benrileysmith/status/1724437869291360748?s=20

    If that wording is accurate, I'd guess abstention may be a compromise position that wouldn't lead to being sacked.
    I think the position may in fact already be whipped abstention. Party MPs can be, and often are, whipped to abstain on a vote rather than whipped to vote one way or the other.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Foxy said:

    As Britain slides increasingly towards our own Peronism and corruption we shouldn't point the finger too much.

    You've noticed the signs in Starmer too?
    Not yet, just with the current government.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023

    Exclusive

    Keir Starmer is preparing to sack any Labour shadow minister who backs the ceasefire amendment tomorrow

    Leadership thinks 10+ sackings may be needed

    Labour source: “Support for this motion is not compatible with serving on the front bench”


    https://x.com/benrileysmith/status/1724437869291360748?s=20

    If that wording is accurate, I'd guess abstention may be a compromise position that wouldn't lead to being sacked.
    I think the position may in fact already be whipped abstention. Party Mps can be, and often are, subject to whipped abstention.
    There was a time when it seemed quite a few MPs liked nothing more than a bit of whipped abstention....
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    More Kurds live in Turkey than in Iraq and Syria put together. Indeed, the number of Kurds in Iran is greater than or about the same size as the Iraqi and Syrian populations put together, so the autonomous Kurdish areas in Iraq and Syria don't provide the Kurdish people with a solution to their desires for nationhood (and the autonomous Kurdish areas in Iraq and Syria are currently at loggerheads!). While I am sympathetic to Kurdish desire for a nation, I don't think we can rip open the Turkish and Iranian borders without democratic consent.

    It's not easy to tell, but I think Christians became the majority in what we call Israel/Palestine today, at least in the Byzantine period. Later, Muslims became a majority. Both of those processes were largely due to conversion. Obviously Jews were very much a minority in recent history until Zionist immigration changed the situation.

    I accept that one can and should be sceptical about kumbaya platitudes. Israel is under attack right now: people are dying. Fortunately, Israel isn't under any threat of losing. Ultimately, we want to get to a place where no-one is losing.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,040
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting header - at the turn of the last century Argentina was one of the richest countries on the planet - far richer than Australia, for example. In South America there is no love lost for them - 3 jokes:

    Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and think they're English.

    How do you make your fortune in Argentina? Buy an Argentinian for what he's worth, and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.

    Contract to build a bridge:

    German contractor: $60m: $20m for design, $20m for materials, $20m for construction
    Japanese contractor: $90m: $30m for design, $30m for materials, $30m for construction
    Argentine Contractor: $180m: $60m for you, $60m for me and we'll get the Germans to build it.

    Has anyone been to Argentina?
    I've been - very briefly - to Buenos Aires.
    I have sailed from Buenos Aires to Ushuaia. Called in at Montevideo in Uruguay - which has a good claim to be the best-governed state in Latin America
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    More Kurds live in Turkey than in Iraq and Syria put together. Indeed, the number of Kurds in Iran is greater than or about the same size as the Iraqi and Syrian populations put together, so the autonomous Kurdish areas in Iraq and Syria don't provide the Kurdish people with a solution to their desires for nationhood (and the autonomous Kurdish areas in Iraq and Syria are currently at loggerheads!). While I am sympathetic to Kurdish desire for a nation, I don't think we can rip open the Turkish and Iranian borders without democratic consent.

    It's not easy to tell, but I think Christians became the majority in what we call Israel/Palestine today, at least in the Byzantine period. Later, Muslims became a majority. Both of those processes were largely due to conversion. Obviously Jews were very much a minority in recent history until Zionist immigration changed the situation.

    I accept that one can and should be sceptical about kumbaya platitudes. Israel is under attack right now: people are dying. Fortunately, Israel isn't under any threat of losing. Ultimately, we want to get to a place where no-one is losing.
    And more Jews live outside Israel than in Israel but Israel remains their ultimate homeland of safety as Kurdistan is for Kurds.

    The only way Jews can ensure they can never be defeated and eliminated from the planet, as the Nazis wanted and some Jihadi militants now want is to maintain Israel for evermore as a Jewish majority nation and their ultimate place of sanctuary
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    "What Suella's Sacking Means
    The Conservative Party's experiment with populism is over
    Matt Goodwin"

    https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/what-suellas-sacking-means
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    BBC & Guardian have got another one of their using "leaked" financial data stories.

    The Cyprus Confidential investigation is based on 3.6 million confidential corporate records from companies providing offshore services in Cyprus, and has focused on its close financial relationship with Russia and now-sanctioned oligarchs, many of whom have used the island to manage their secret offshore holdings.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/14/cyprus-to-clamp-down-as-investigation-reveals-oligarchs-moved-assets-after-ukraine-invasion
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Andy_JS said:

    "What Suella's Sacking Means
    The Conservative Party's experiment with populism is over
    Matt Goodwin"

    https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/what-suellas-sacking-means

    LOL! See my post at 3.45PM. Right on cue!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549
    edited November 2023
    No change for the Tories in the polls.

    "Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 46% (+1)
    CON 28% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-1)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 4% (+1)

    via @Savanta_UK, 10 - 12 Nov"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1724364029085245670
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,129

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Agree with this. I have long held that the Nation State is the best guarantee of democracy and stability for the people living within its boundaries. But that does not mean that any individual Nation State has a right to continue to exist if that is not what the people want. It can either merge into a larger nation state or split into a number of smaller ones that reflect the wishes of its communities.

    I do think that a set of very basic international rules - such as those covered by the war crimes and crimes against humanity laws which have been discussing - should also exist and Nation States should be held to account against them. This should, in theory at least, offer the sorts of protection we want to see for minorities, whther they are religious, racial or gender based.
    I also like a bit of Nation State but I feel it's a good thing not a bad thing if certain fundamentals (over and above those you reference regarding war and atrocities) are enshrined somewhere superior to it. An example would be the right of girls to go to school. Or (still on gender equality but more relevant to the western world) female reproductive rights - a minimum threshold there such that (eg) a country cannot outright prohibit abortion.

    Of course a supranational body can't 100% enforce such principles on a recalcitrant or dissenting Nation State, nevertheless I think the more we introduce and support such structures, and the more teeth they have, the better. This should be the direction of travel imo rather than leaving them, ignoring them, defanging them, or generally giving them the proverbial finger and saying "nope, what the elected politicians of a country say goes as regards that country, end of".
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited November 2023
    biggles said:

    I wonder if a Labour rebellion and sackings increases the chance of a Corbyn run in London as a way of giving his mob a national platform? He could win if he stood.

    He couldn't, but Susan Hall would win. Still that ticks all Corbyn's boxes.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Andy_JS said:

    "What Suella's Sacking Means
    The Conservative Party's experiment with populism is over
    Matt Goodwin"

    https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/what-suellas-sacking-means

    Well that's a relief.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,149
    edited November 2023
    biggles said:

    I wonder if a Labour rebellion and sackings increases the chance of a Corbyn run in London as a way of giving his mob a national platform? He could win if he stood.

    There's not a lot of sign from polls that he could win if he stood, just that he'd harm Khan. Maybe he could shift that, but I think he'd struggle to extend his support beyond a fairly large but ultimately insufficient core vote.

    2023-vintage Corbyn isn't 2000-vintage Kuddly Ken who was drawing in quite wide support from people who'd consider themselves centrist and Khan, whilst he has plenty of critics, is a sitting Mayor who a fair number of people consider is doing a decent job. He's not going to fold like Dobson, who'd obviously had his arm twisted by Blair to do it anyway. I mean Ken really blotted his copy book later on, maybe partly illness related but partly because he has "views". But in 2000, he was a newt-loving everyman, who was a bit red for some but basically an apparently good egg.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    Argentina's fall from grace is quite recent.

    As late as 1965, GDP per head was on a par with Austria and Italy, and well ahead of places like Ireland, Spain, or Japan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Argentina#/media/File:GDP_per_capita_in_US_Dollars,_1965,_Austria,_Italy,_Argentina,_Ireland,_Japan,_Greece,_Spain,_Chile,_Portugal,_Mexico,_Brazil.png
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239

    Andy_JS said:

    "What Suella's Sacking Means
    The Conservative Party's experiment with populism is over
    Matt Goodwin"

    https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/what-suellas-sacking-means

    LOL! See my post at 3.45PM. Right on cue!
    I love the way that every single assertion-proving link in that Substack article is to another one of Goodwin's outpourings. "I am right because I say I am."

    Goodwin's Law: as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of Matt Goodwin making a tendentious point about it somehow being the fault of the "elite consensus" approaches 1.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404

    biggles said:

    I wonder if a Labour rebellion and sackings increases the chance of a Corbyn run in London as a way of giving his mob a national platform? He could win if he stood.

    He couldn't, but Susan Hall would win. Still that ticks all Corbyn's boxes.
    Corbyn should be setting up his own party for the general election. Mandelson is simply running his "they have nowhere else to go" shtick and telling the Left to suck it up.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Andy_JS said:

    No change for the Tories in the polls.

    "Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 46% (+1)
    CON 28% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-1)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 4% (+1)

    via @Savanta_UK, 10 - 12 Nov"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1724364029085245670

    Fieldwork predates the canning of Suella so the data tells us nothing much.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758
    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Interesting header:

    It is seemingly odd that almost all (if not all) South American countries have struggled to find a good stable governmental and economic platform. There are no compelling reasons why they should struggle as far as I can see. I suppose that all of Europe wrestled with this for many centuries, and went step by step, and didn't leap to where we are now.

    I'd take one issue,

    "Rishi Sunak nor Keir Starmer are going to frighten anyone, they are as scary as a cup of hot Horlicks at bedtime"

    It's not so long ago we had Boris vs Corbyn - I think a fairer comparison.

    Have you ever tried dealing with them in a business sense ? I can't go into details, but as a continent (Argentina is one of the worst offenders) they're about as likely to follow globally accepted business practices as Indian cos are to have EU rated site health and safety !
    I'm a Burford Capital shareholder.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Exclusive

    Keir Starmer is preparing to sack any Labour shadow minister who backs the ceasefire amendment tomorrow

    Leadership thinks 10+ sackings may be needed

    Labour source: “Support for this motion is not compatible with serving on the front bench”


    https://x.com/benrileysmith/status/1724437869291360748?s=20

    If that wording is accurate, I'd guess abstention may be a compromise position that wouldn't lead to being sacked.
    I think the position may in fact already be whipped abstention. Party Mps can be, and often are, subject to whipped abstention.
    There was a time when it seemed quite a few MPs liked nothing more than a bit of whipped abstention....
    I still feel sorry for the family of Stephen Milligan MP
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Andy_JS said:

    "What Suella's Sacking Means
    The Conservative Party's experiment with populism is over
    Matt Goodwin"

    https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/what-suellas-sacking-means

    Well that's a relief.
    Goodwin really is a tool.

    Think for a minute about all we have seen. Boris Johnson? Gone. Liz Truss? Gone. Suella Braverman? Gone. And none of it with a serious democratic mandate.

    Was there a serious democratic mandate to recruit Truss or Suella in the first place? Tory members are not the electorate.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    What, pray, is a ‘fine kumbaya platitude’?

    Homo sapiens can be a very nasty, aggressive species when faced with something it doesn’t like.
    Ask Homo neanderthalis.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,908

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    What, pray, is a ‘fine kumbaya platitude’?

    Homo sapiens can be a very nasty, aggressive species when faced with something it doesn’t like.
    Ask Homo neanderthalis.
    As the Jews found out so well in the 1930s and 1940s, hence they are so passionate in preserving Israel as their one safe space and majority Jewish homeland in the world
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023
    GM's Cadillac brand is part of an ongoing bid by the Andretti team to enter the sport which has yet to be formally approved.

    General Motors registers as Formula 1 power-unit supplier for 2028 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/67419144

    They know F1 is about going around corners quickly....not who has the biggest float in the parade
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Senior Stephen Lawrence officer Ray Adams was corrupt, says secret Met report

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67372493
    A senior officer involved in the Stephen Lawrence murder case was corrupt, according to a secret Met Police report uncovered by the BBC.
    It said Ray Adams was cleared by a corruption probe which relied on false testimony from a man linked to the family of one of Stephen's killers.
    The revelation contradicts years of police denial about the role of corrupt officers in the case.
    Mr Adams says he has asked the Met to investigate the allegations.
    The Metropolitan Police did not answer the BBC's questions about the report's conclusions regarding Mr Adams.
    The force said it will review material before deciding whether any further action is required.
    Imran Khan, solicitor for Stephen's mother Baroness Lawrence, said the report about Mr Adams - a former commander, who was once head of criminal intelligence for the entire Met - was "dramatic, disturbing and shocking".
    Sir William Macpherson's landmark 1998 public inquiry into the murder did not hear about this link between Mr Adams and the informant.
    Fourteen years later, the Met said there was no suggestion of any relationship between the two...


    Line of Duty was a documentary...
  • Andy_JS said:

    Interesting header - at the turn of the last century Argentina was one of the richest countries on the planet - far richer than Australia, for example. In South America there is no love lost for them - 3 jokes:

    Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and think they're English.

    How do you make your fortune in Argentina? Buy an Argentinian for what he's worth, and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.

    Contract to build a bridge:

    German contractor: $60m: $20m for design, $20m for materials, $20m for construction
    Japanese contractor: $90m: $30m for design, $30m for materials, $30m for construction
    Argentine Contractor: $180m: $60m for you, $60m for me and we'll get the Germans to build it.

    Has anyone been to Argentina?
    Yes - my wife and I have as part of our trip to Antarctica, South Georgia and the Falklands

    And it was on a Norwegian expedition ship, not by the Royal Navy !!!!!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    I think this might be the journalist who wrote the piece I mentioned earlier: The Forgotten Rachels.

    http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/TheForgottenRachels.html
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited November 2023

    biggles said:

    I wonder if a Labour rebellion and sackings increases the chance of a Corbyn run in London as a way of giving his mob a national platform? He could win if he stood.

    He couldn't, but Susan Hall would win. Still that ticks all Corbyn's boxes.

    biggles said:

    I wonder if a Labour rebellion and sackings increases the chance of a Corbyn run in London as a way of giving his mob a national platform? He could win if he stood.

    There's not a lot of sign from polls that he could win if he stood, just that he'd harm Khan. Maybe he could shift that, but I think he'd struggle to extend his support beyond a fairly large but ultimately insufficient core vote.

    2023-vintage Corbyn isn't 2000-vintage Kuddly Ken who was drawing in quite wide support from people who'd consider themselves centrist and Khan, whilst he has plenty of critics, is a sitting Mayor who a fair number of people consider is doing a decent job. He's not going to fold like Dobson, who'd obviously had his arm twisted by Blair to do it anyway. I mean Ken really blotted his copy book later on, maybe partly illness related but partly because he has "views". But in 2000, he was a newt-loving everyman, who was a bit red for some but basically an apparently good egg.
    Remember it’s FPTP now. Easier for Corbyn than it ever was for Ken if he hoovered up Labour and Green votes. Especially with a rallying cause like Gaza, irrelevant though it is to London.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    What, pray, is a ‘fine kumbaya platitude’?

    Homo sapiens can be a very nasty, aggressive species when faced with something it doesn’t like.
    Ask Homo neanderthalis.
    TBF, we don't actually know what finished off the Neanderthals.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    What, pray, is a ‘fine kumbaya platitude’?

    Homo sapiens can be a very nasty, aggressive species when faced with something it doesn’t like.
    Ask Homo neanderthalis.
    As the Jews found out so well in the 1930s and 1940s, hence they are so passionate in preserving Israel as their one safe space and majority Jewish homeland in the world
    Wouldn’t disagree about the Jews. I can just about remember the sympathetic noises that were made about them leaving Europe after WWII.
    Then they started shooting British soldiers.
  • biggles said:

    I wonder if a Labour rebellion and sackings increases the chance of a Corbyn run in London as a way of giving his mob a national platform? He could win if he stood.

    He couldn't, but Susan Hall would win. Still that ticks all Corbyn's boxes.
    Corbyn should be setting up his own party for the general election. Mandelson is simply running his "they have nowhere else to go" shtick and telling the Left to suck it up.
    They'd get absolutely nowhere outside Islington North. It'd be like every other "Socialist Alternative Real Trade Unionist People's Voice" iteration. Because Corbynists have always built it as a personality cult, there really isn't a brand that's worth anything if the candidate isn't J Corbyn Esq.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    What, pray, is a ‘fine kumbaya platitude’?

    Homo sapiens can be a very nasty, aggressive species when faced with something it doesn’t like.
    Ask Homo neanderthalis.
    TBF, we don't actually know what finished off the Neanderthals.
    They weren't entirely finished off - we're in part them.
  • Didn't look like an accident:

    NEW - ARREST MADE: A man has been arrested for the manslaughter of the Nottingham Panthers ice hockey player Adam Johnson, who was killed in collision in a match against the Sheffield Steelers.

    https://x.com/JayMitchinson/status/1724459651385680017?s=20
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    More Kurds live in Turkey than in Iraq and Syria put together. Indeed, the number of Kurds in Iran is greater than or about the same size as the Iraqi and Syrian populations put together, so the autonomous Kurdish areas in Iraq and Syria don't provide the Kurdish people with a solution to their desires for nationhood (and the autonomous Kurdish areas in Iraq and Syria are currently at loggerheads!). While I am sympathetic to Kurdish desire for a nation, I don't think we can rip open the Turkish and Iranian borders without democratic consent.

    It's not easy to tell, but I think Christians became the majority in what we call Israel/Palestine today, at least in the Byzantine period. Later, Muslims became a majority. Both of those processes were largely due to conversion. Obviously Jews were very much a minority in recent history until Zionist immigration changed the situation.

    I accept that one can and should be sceptical about kumbaya platitudes. Israel is under attack right now: people are dying. Fortunately, Israel isn't under any threat of losing. Ultimately, we want to get to a place where no-one is losing.
    And more Jews live outside Israel than in Israel but Israel remains their ultimate homeland of safety as Kurdistan is for Kurds.

    The only way Jews can ensure they can never be defeated and eliminated from the planet, as the Nazis wanted and some Jihadi militants now want is to maintain Israel for evermore as a Jewish majority nation and their ultimate place of sanctuary
    That is, pretty much definitionally, what Zionism believes, yes. I don't believe that. I think we can strive for a world where minorities can never be eliminated from the planet because of a collective belief in minority rights.

    There are many peoples of the world who face oppression and who don't have their own majority nation state. (Some, like the Romany (who the Nazis also wanted to eliminate), have no ambitions for such. Other, like many Kurds or some Sikhs, do.) I don't believe creating majority nation states for the Kurds, Romany, Sikhs, Yazidis, Ossetians, Basques, etc. etc. etc. is necessary or feasible. We have to come up with a better solution to protect people than creating majority nation states.

    Of course, Israel already exists, so it's a different situation. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Zionism/Bundism debates of the early 20th century, Israel has been a nation state for three quarters of a century and I don't think that should change (unless so desired by the people of Israel). It seems likely that Israel will remain a majority Jewish nation for many decades. However, I don't believe that being so is the only way to protect Jews worldwide or that the rights of individual Israelis to be who they want to be should be overridden. My own country has come from being Christian majority to Christian minority in my lifespan. If Israel changes in similar ways, it changes.

    You keep repeating the same points, HYUFD. You have not made clear what you want to happen. How would you maintain Israel as evermore a Jewish majority nation? If many Israelis converted to Christianity and threatened that majority, what measures would you want taken? If non-Jewish Israelis have more kids and the population shifts over time, what measures would you want taken?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    What, pray, is a ‘fine kumbaya platitude’?

    Homo sapiens can be a very nasty, aggressive species when faced with something it doesn’t like.
    Ask Homo neanderthalis.
    TBF, we don't actually know what finished off the Neanderthals.
    We never will, of course, but at least one authority reckons it was competition from H. sapiens, due to the latter being able to organise better.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    GM's Cadillac brand is part of an ongoing bid by the Andretti team to enter the sport which has yet to be formally approved.

    General Motors registers as Formula 1 power-unit supplier for 2028 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/67419144

    They know F1 is about going around corners quickly....not who has the biggest float in the parade

    There’s a whole load of politics in this one. Everyone knows it’s better for the sport to have GM and Andretti involved, but the existing entrants are still worried about their shares of the prize money being diluted.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    Excited to share @GoogleDeepMind’s newest AI model GraphCast: the most accurate 10-day global weather forecasting system in the world. GraphCast can also offer earlier warnings of extreme weather events, including the path of hurricanes. In @Science today

    https://twitter.com/demishassabis/status/1724452655454466489?

    Back to the past. A computerized version of pre-physics weather forecasting where people would look at almanacs of historical weather records.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Nigelb said:

    Senior Stephen Lawrence officer Ray Adams was corrupt, says secret Met report

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67372493
    A senior officer involved in the Stephen Lawrence murder case was corrupt, according to a secret Met Police report uncovered by the BBC.
    It said Ray Adams was cleared by a corruption probe which relied on false testimony from a man linked to the family of one of Stephen's killers.
    The revelation contradicts years of police denial about the role of corrupt officers in the case.
    Mr Adams says he has asked the Met to investigate the allegations.
    The Metropolitan Police did not answer the BBC's questions about the report's conclusions regarding Mr Adams.
    The force said it will review material before deciding whether any further action is required.
    Imran Khan, solicitor for Stephen's mother Baroness Lawrence, said the report about Mr Adams - a former commander, who was once head of criminal intelligence for the entire Met - was "dramatic, disturbing and shocking".
    Sir William Macpherson's landmark 1998 public inquiry into the murder did not hear about this link between Mr Adams and the informant.
    Fourteen years later, the Met said there was no suggestion of any relationship between the two...


    Line of Duty was a documentary...

    It's quite a long read, but the details are remarkable, and disgraceful.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347
    kinabalu said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Agree with this. I have long held that the Nation State is the best guarantee of democracy and stability for the people living within its boundaries. But that does not mean that any individual Nation State has a right to continue to exist if that is not what the people want. It can either merge into a larger nation state or split into a number of smaller ones that reflect the wishes of its communities.

    I do think that a set of very basic international rules - such as those covered by the war crimes and crimes against humanity laws which have been discussing - should also exist and Nation States should be held to account against them. This should, in theory at least, offer the sorts of protection we want to see for minorities, whther they are religious, racial or gender based.
    I also like a bit of Nation State but I feel it's a good thing not a bad thing if certain fundamentals (over and above those you reference regarding war and atrocities) are enshrined somewhere superior to it. An example would be the right of girls to go to school. Or (still on gender equality but more relevant to the western world) female reproductive rights - a minimum threshold there such that (eg) a country cannot outright prohibit abortion.

    Of course a supranational body can't 100% enforce such principles on a recalcitrant or dissenting Nation State, nevertheless I think the more we introduce and support such structures, and the more teeth they have, the better. This should be the direction of travel imo rather than leaving them, ignoring them, defanging them, or generally giving them the proverbial finger and saying "nope, what the elected politicians of a country say goes as regards that country, end of".
    One would need a world army/gendarmerie to enforce such things, and I see no appetite to create one.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Didn't look like an accident:

    NEW - ARREST MADE: A man has been arrested for the manslaughter of the Nottingham Panthers ice hockey player Adam Johnson, who was killed in collision in a match against the Sheffield Steelers.

    https://x.com/JayMitchinson/status/1724459651385680017?s=20

    Not knowing ice skating, my assumption was that the victim had fallen and the other skater had skated into him; perhaps an understandable, tragic accident. Then I saw the video, and realised that explanation was wrong. It'll be an interesting (but tragic) one to follow.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited November 2023

    Excited to share @GoogleDeepMind’s newest AI model GraphCast: the most accurate 10-day global weather forecasting system in the world. GraphCast can also offer earlier warnings of extreme weather events, including the path of hurricanes. In @Science today

    https://twitter.com/demishassabis/status/1724452655454466489?

    When we get easterlies and the forecast goes a bit wrong there's always someone who says 'the models can't get a handle on it because they aren't "used" to this pattern'.

    This is of course wrong when it comes to normal weather modelling because the models are essentially just solving Navier-Stokes equations and aren't really biased in that way.

    I wonder if this is? Be interesting to see how it copes with low frequency events.

    If you can run accurate weather models on relatively normal hardware it is going to put a big dent in several companies...not least purveyors of supercomputers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Omnium said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    What, pray, is a ‘fine kumbaya platitude’?

    Homo sapiens can be a very nasty, aggressive species when faced with something it doesn’t like.
    Ask Homo neanderthalis.
    TBF, we don't actually know what finished off the Neanderthals.
    They weren't entirely finished off - we're in part them.
    Well you could say that about a number of genes from extinct species.
    Which species no longer exist.
  • Life imitating comedy....

    What does it mean: "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"? @netflix Hapless, Season 2

    https://twitter.com/davidboxenhorn/status/1719723130418086030?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,987
    edited November 2023

    Didn't look like an accident:

    NEW - ARREST MADE: A man has been arrested for the manslaughter of the Nottingham Panthers ice hockey player Adam Johnson, who was killed in collision in a match against the Sheffield Steelers.

    https://x.com/JayMitchinson/status/1724459651385680017?s=20

    Oh wow. I accidentally saw the incident at the time and it is horrific.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,149
    edited November 2023
    Omnium said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT...

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    What does it mean to make the world safe for majorities if you deny their right to remain majorities?
    I would want to interrogate what you mean. Individuals have rights. Individuals have the right to safety and to be allowed to express their identities. What does it mean to say a group has the right to remain a majority?

    Let's say you follow religion X and you live in a country that has a majority of other people who follow religion X. What happens if a bunch of your countrymen convert to a different religion or abandon any religion (as is happening with Christianity in the UK)? What does a "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean in that situation? Do you get to force your countrymen to not change religion? Do you get to expel them? What happens if your coreligionists just happen to have fewer kids and a minority group are a bit more fecund, until one day you are in the minority? Should your "right to remain [a] majorit[y]" mean you get to decide how many kids other people have?

    It seems to be illiberal and undemocratic to state that a nation state must retain a certain religious or ethnic majority.

    I guess you may be alluding to ideas around abolishing the Israeli state, subsuming it into some larger Israel/Palestine single state. That raises different questions. I think the people of Israel should get to decide what happens to them, so I would not want to see any change in the nation that is not supported by democratic majority. So, to take a different example, if Moldovans want to merge with Romania and cease to be the Republic of Moldova (and Romanians agree), then that should happen, and if Moldovans don't want to merge with Romania and they want Moldova to continue as a separate country, then that should happen.
    Then there are multiple other Christian majority countries you can still go to if a Christian in the UK, even if the UK is no longer Christian majority.

    There is only 1 Jewish majority nation however, Israel and after millions of Jews were murdered in Europe in the Holocaust and anti Semitism present in every other nation of the world it is no surprise the vast majority of Jews wish to keep Israel as the Jewish homeland. A place of safety if needed to move to if things ever get too bad for Jews again in their nation of residence
    The desire of many Jews for Israel as a Jewish homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Armenians for Armenia as a homeland to exist is understandable. The desire of many Kurds for Kurdistan as a homeland to exist is understandable.

    The question is how you balance the rights of different people. Should we carve out a Kurdistan, making a bunch of non-Kurds suddenly minorities in a new nation?

    Let's imagine a new religion emerged in Galilee, people believe in a new messiah called Hyufd. Hyufdism spreads and many Israeli Jews convert to Hyufidsm. One day, Judaism is no longer in a majority in Israel. (This has happened before, twice.) What happens? Are the choices of individuals to convert less important than the desire for a Jewish majority nation?

    Every citizen of Israel should have equal rights, to worship what religion they want to (or how they want to), to follow what social customs and practices they want to, to speak what language they want to at home, to have the number of children they want to. Those rights, I suggest, trump any collective right of a majority to remain a majority.
    I support a Kurdish state and it now effectively exists in Northern Iraq and Northern Syria anyway.

    Were Jews a minority in Israel even after Jesus walked the earth? The evidence is not clear. What is clear is it is now the only place they are genuinely safe from anti Semitism and fine kumbaya platitudes about universal human rights ain't much help when things really go bad in your nation of residence. As the Jews discovered the League of Nations was hopeless to protect them in Germany once the Nazis took over and as Ukraine has discovered the UN was also largely ineffective once Putin invaded, they had to fight to preserve their homeland themselves
    What, pray, is a ‘fine kumbaya platitude’?

    Homo sapiens can be a very nasty, aggressive species when faced with something it doesn’t like.
    Ask Homo neanderthalis.
    TBF, we don't actually know what finished off the Neanderthals.
    They weren't entirely finished off - we're in part them.
    It's a bit of a stretch, but it has been noted that there is more Neanderthal DNA out there today than at any point in history, simply because of growth in the size of human population, and the fact most of us have a very small percentage of Neanderthal DNA.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,129

    biggles said:

    I wonder if a Labour rebellion and sackings increases the chance of a Corbyn run in London as a way of giving his mob a national platform? He could win if he stood.

    He couldn't, but Susan Hall would win. Still that ticks all Corbyn's boxes.
    Corbyn should be setting up his own party for the general election. Mandelson is simply running his "they have nowhere else to go" shtick and telling the Left to suck it up.
    We want a Corbyn free party of the Left, I think. Socialism for the world of today. Internationalist, contemporary, sophisticated, passionate but pragmatic. No straggly beards. No manhole covers.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,618


    Of course, Israel already exists, so it's a different situation. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Zionism/Bundism debates of the early 20th century, Israel has been a nation state for three quarters of a century and I don't think that should change (unless so desired by the people of Israel). It seems likely that Israel will remain a majority Jewish nation for many decades. However, I don't believe that being so is the only way to protect Jews worldwide or that the rights of individual Israelis to be who they want to be should be overridden. My own country has come from being Christian majority to Christian minority in my lifespan. If Israel changes in similar ways, it changes.

    You keep repeating the same points, HYUFD. You have not made clear what you want to happen. How would you maintain Israel as evermore a Jewish majority nation? If many Israelis converted to Christianity and threatened that majority, what measures would you want taken? If non-Jewish Israelis have more kids and the population shifts over time, what measures would you want taken?

    You seem to be making an unstated assumption that the direction of travel will always be towards greater multiculturalism.

    What if the decline of one majority were instead replaced by another that wanted to establish a different kind of state?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Didn't look like an accident:

    NEW - ARREST MADE: A man has been arrested for the manslaughter of the Nottingham Panthers ice hockey player Adam Johnson, who was killed in collision in a match against the Sheffield Steelers.

    https://x.com/JayMitchinson/status/1724459651385680017?s=20

    Not knowing ice skating, my assumption was that the victim had fallen and the other skater had skated into him; perhaps an understandable, tragic accident. Then I saw the video, and realised that explanation was wrong. It'll be an interesting (but tragic) one to follow.
    It’s a really interesting case. Ice hockey is a sport where a massive amount of incidental violence is treated as perfectly normal, and there’s been plenty of horrific injuries over the years. I don’t think the intention was to put a blade in the neck, but two sets of lawyers are going to argue that point incessantly.
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