Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Can Cameron make Sunak’s election challenge any easier – politicalbetting.com

1235

Comments

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,107

    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Something like 40% of Jews live in Israel. Some of the Jews who live elsewhere will also think of themselves as Israeli (I live in Ireland and I think of myself as British).

    So, yeah, seems likely that most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis.
    Wikipedia has, with caveats, 30% of the Jewish population of the world living in Israel, with 51% living in the US. Although it depends on how you define who counts. On those numbers, it seems unlikely that most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis.
    It only needs a minority of Jews living outside of Israel to think of themselves as Israeli to get to a majority overall. Are you really sure that it's less than a third?

    Given the numbers who, for example, think of themselves as Irish-American in the US, I'd be really surprised if there weren't a majority of Jews who had an Israeli identity.
    On these numbers, it would require 29% of Jews not living in Israel to consider themselves Israelis. I would guess the figure is less than that. I grew up and live in north London. Among Jewish people I know here, I can't think of any who consider themselves Israeli. The one person I know well with an Israeli passport does not even consider themself Israeli! But obviously who I know is a biased sample. It's the views of Jewish Americans that would answer your question.

    Wikipedia gives a figure of 230,000 Jewish Israeli expats, so people with Israeli citizenship living in other countries are not large enough in number to satisfy your thesis, but of course some people without Israeli citizenship may still consider themselves Israeli in some sense.
  • Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Something like 40% of Jews live in Israel. Some of the Jews who live elsewhere will also think of themselves as Israeli (I live in Ireland and I think of myself as British).

    So, yeah, seems likely that most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis.
    Wikipedia has, with caveats, 30% of the Jewish population of the world living in Israel, with 51% living in the US. Although it depends on how you define who counts. On those numbers, it seems unlikely that most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis.
    It only needs a minority of Jews living outside of Israel to think of themselves as Israeli to get to a majority overall. Are you really sure that it's less than a third?

    Given the numbers who, for example, think of themselves as Irish-American in the US, I'd be really surprised if there weren't a majority of Jews who had an Israeli identity.
    I'd be wary of going too far down this rabbit hole as it can be antisemitic to describe non-Israeli Jews as owing their first loyalty to Israel.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,107
    Leon said:

    Esther McVey has some work to do according to Ipsos.

    People calling themselves 'woke' - 16%
    People calling themselves 'anti-woke' - 15% (1% less than the Suella Approvers!)
    People who don't care about such crap - 21%
    People who haven't a clue what any of it means - 44%

    Just another sign why the culture wars thing is two groups only talking to themselves while the electorate scratch their heads at such lunacy



    “Just another sign why the culture wars thing is two groups only talking to themselves while the electorate scratch their heads at such lunacy”

    But this can be said of any political topic. Half the population has an IQ under 100 so they’re too stupid to even grasp the issues anyway

    Another 35% are so busy getting by and feeding their families they don’t pay any attention to politics outside elections: especially abstract concepts like Wokeness

    It is ALWAYS an elite 15% that has these debates. People with the leisure, brains, and motivation to get involved. Us guys
    If only you could distract everyday people from their petty concerns of feeding their families, paying their electricity bills, and ensuring that their elderly relatives are looked after. Then they could join your debate on the important issues.
  • Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Everyone loves diversity and inclusion, until you stick up for the Palestinians. According to an Op-Ed in the Guardian. A paper which is overwhelmingly pro-Gazan.

    How quickly the massacre of the 7th October is being forgotten.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/everyone-loves-diversity-and-inclusion-until-you-stick-up-for-palestinians/ar-AA1jTTM9?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b0f071c732fe489f80d510fd66c3d91f&ei=19

    "And that’s the point. If you are Palestinian, Arab or Muslim in the US today, or someone who is an ally of those groups, your speech is uniquely patrolled and your very right to speak is unfairly limited,"

    I love it when someone writes an article in the mass media complaining that their voice is being silenced. Especially in the context of the mass pro-Palestinian marches there have been in the US.
    Not sure if you've spent much time in the US but the debate there is skewed in an extremely pro-Israel direction compared to here. It is actually quite hard for any pro-Palestinian views to get a hearing in the mass media. Or at least that was my impression when I lived there. Maybe things have shifted since 2010, I don't know.
    I think from looking at reports that things absolutely have shifted. Haven't there been (pro-Palestinian) protests at many of the ivy league universities, for example?
    Yep. And this NYT report says young political aides in DC are rebelling against their pro Israeli bosses

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/israel-biden-letter-gaza-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Definitely a change in US attitudes; perilous for Israel

    Jerusalem needs to pursue a two state solution NOW before it is too late - once they have eliminated Hamas. That’s the hard truth for Israel

    Otherwise they will end up with a one state solution
    "Jerusalem" as in the city the Palestinians want half of to be the capital of their state?
  • kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    There have been suicides in the PO case.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    This story gets worse every day, it really does.

    Half of me wants to stop the whole thing now, and pass files to the CPS, while the other half of me wants to see the rest of the PO senior management forced to have their say under oath first.
    Problem is by the time this is all over it will all just be swept under the carpet and the guilty will get away with destroying innocent peoples lives maliciously.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419

    Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Virtually every Jew I know is ardently pro Israel even if they despise the Israeli government of the day

    They usually express it as: “after everything we’ve been through, we need one country we know is safe. Where we can always go if it comes to it”

    In fact I’m not sure I’ve met a Jew that doesn’t feel this, tho they must exist. Perhaps you are one
    They must be even more discombobulated recently on the one country we know is safe metric. Afaics Israel has held a view that they float in a sea of enemies who wish to destroy them and with whom they cannot negotiate for most of its (modern) history, which seems a weird kind of safety to my eyes.
    You can't see very far then. Perhaps out to Auchtermuchty if you squint.

    This whole episode came about on the eve of and arguably on account of an imminent agreement between Israel and Saudi.
    Invoke the mighty Muchty as your derisory example of the archytpical Scottish one-horse town if you like, but how many places of equivalent size can claim not one but two celebrated contributions to the musical canon?
    You are slightly proving the point because you probably need to walk 500 miles if you start out from Auchtermuchty to get anywhere of note.
    Tsk you obviously don't know the song very well. Total distance walked is 1000 miles.
    Do they actually do the walking though ?

    Aren't they just saying they would walk 500 more and then another 500, to meet some chick they fancy.

    It is a while since I heard the song.
    Yes it is merely an intent but it is expressed quite strongly. The other actions in the song (waking up, havering etc) are reported as things that are "gonna" happen but the walking is more conditional ("would"). I've seen the Proclaimers live though and I'd bet that they generally follow through on their promises.
    I guess it is also understandable that they would fall down at her door if they had walked 1000 miles to get there,
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Everyone loves diversity and inclusion, until you stick up for the Palestinians. According to an Op-Ed in the Guardian. A paper which is overwhelmingly pro-Gazan.

    How quickly the massacre of the 7th October is being forgotten.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/everyone-loves-diversity-and-inclusion-until-you-stick-up-for-palestinians/ar-AA1jTTM9?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b0f071c732fe489f80d510fd66c3d91f&ei=19

    "And that’s the point. If you are Palestinian, Arab or Muslim in the US today, or someone who is an ally of those groups, your speech is uniquely patrolled and your very right to speak is unfairly limited,"

    I love it when someone writes an article in the mass media complaining that their voice is being silenced. Especially in the context of the mass pro-Palestinian marches there have been in the US.
    Not sure if you've spent much time in the US but the debate there is skewed in an extremely pro-Israel direction compared to here. It is actually quite hard for any pro-Palestinian views to get a hearing in the mass media. Or at least that was my impression when I lived there. Maybe things have shifted since 2010, I don't know.
    I think from looking at reports that things absolutely have shifted. Haven't there been (pro-Palestinian) protests at many of the ivy league universities, for example?
    Yep. And this NYT report says young political aides in DC are rebelling against their pro Israeli bosses

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/israel-biden-letter-gaza-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Definitely a change in US attitudes; perilous for Israel

    Jerusalem needs to pursue a two state solution NOW before it is too late - once they have eliminated Hamas. That’s the hard truth for Israel

    Otherwise they will end up with a one state solution
    Its not good for US either.
    I remember warning my Israeli friends of this 15 years ago. “One day America will not be so powerful”. “One day America might change its attitude to Israel”. “China is rising and will not be so friendly”

    They dismissed it all, rather arrogantly. Arrogance is a problem in Israeli politics and I think it comes from so many years of occupying palestine and beating up the Arabs - you start to think you are innately superior, rather than temporarily stronger
  • Lammy needs to be careful trying to get an easy hit over Cameron not in Commons to face qs because he is a peer.

    Is Starmer sure he wont need to do the same kind of thing at some point when he is PM?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Everyone loves diversity and inclusion, until you stick up for the Palestinians. According to an Op-Ed in the Guardian. A paper which is overwhelmingly pro-Gazan.

    How quickly the massacre of the 7th October is being forgotten.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/everyone-loves-diversity-and-inclusion-until-you-stick-up-for-palestinians/ar-AA1jTTM9?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b0f071c732fe489f80d510fd66c3d91f&ei=19

    "And that’s the point. If you are Palestinian, Arab or Muslim in the US today, or someone who is an ally of those groups, your speech is uniquely patrolled and your very right to speak is unfairly limited,"

    I love it when someone writes an article in the mass media complaining that their voice is being silenced. Especially in the context of the mass pro-Palestinian marches there have been in the US.
    Not sure if you've spent much time in the US but the debate there is skewed in an extremely pro-Israel direction compared to here. It is actually quite hard for any pro-Palestinian views to get a hearing in the mass media. Or at least that was my impression when I lived there. Maybe things have shifted since 2010, I don't know.
    I think from looking at reports that things absolutely have shifted. Haven't there been (pro-Palestinian) protests at many of the ivy league universities, for example?
    Yep. And this NYT report says young political aides in DC are rebelling against their pro Israeli bosses

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/israel-biden-letter-gaza-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Definitely a change in US attitudes; perilous for Israel

    Jerusalem needs to pursue a two state solution NOW before it is too late - once they have eliminated Hamas. That’s the hard truth for Israel

    Otherwise they will end up with a one state solution
    "Jerusalem" as in the city the Palestinians want half of to be the capital of their state?
    Yes, Jerusalem will be a sticking point. Perhaps the city can be an interzone, like old Tangiers. Run by uninterested outsiders and agreeably libertine
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    edited November 2023

    kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    There have been suicides in the PO case.
    Yes but that is not enough for say corporate manslaughter, as in a train crash where the train company was directly responsible for passengers deaths by gross negligence or a construction company which built a building so poorly it collapsed and killed the residents of it

  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Everyone loves diversity and inclusion, until you stick up for the Palestinians. According to an Op-Ed in the Guardian. A paper which is overwhelmingly pro-Gazan.

    How quickly the massacre of the 7th October is being forgotten.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/everyone-loves-diversity-and-inclusion-until-you-stick-up-for-palestinians/ar-AA1jTTM9?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b0f071c732fe489f80d510fd66c3d91f&ei=19

    "And that’s the point. If you are Palestinian, Arab or Muslim in the US today, or someone who is an ally of those groups, your speech is uniquely patrolled and your very right to speak is unfairly limited,"

    I love it when someone writes an article in the mass media complaining that their voice is being silenced. Especially in the context of the mass pro-Palestinian marches there have been in the US.
    Not sure if you've spent much time in the US but the debate there is skewed in an extremely pro-Israel direction compared to here. It is actually quite hard for any pro-Palestinian views to get a hearing in the mass media. Or at least that was my impression when I lived there. Maybe things have shifted since 2010, I don't know.
    I think from looking at reports that things absolutely have shifted. Haven't there been (pro-Palestinian) protests at many of the ivy league universities, for example?
    Yep. And this NYT report says young political aides in DC are rebelling against their pro Israeli bosses

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/israel-biden-letter-gaza-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Definitely a change in US attitudes; perilous for Israel

    Jerusalem needs to pursue a two state solution NOW before it is too late - once they have eliminated Hamas. That’s the hard truth for Israel

    Otherwise they will end up with a one state solution
    Its not good for US either.
    I remember warning my Israeli friends of this 15 years ago. “One day America will not be so powerful”. “One day America might change its attitude to Israel”. “China is rising and will not be so friendly”

    They dismissed it all, rather arrogantly. Arrogance is a problem in Israeli politics and I think it comes from so many years of occupying palestine and beating up the Arabs - you start to think you are innately superior, rather than temporarily stronger
    Case in point, just look at Russia. From second best army in the world to second best in Ukraine.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    TimS said:

    Did we see this?

    William Hague was offered FS job, refused and suggested Cameron.

    https://x.com/anandMenon1/status/1724402778724766040?s=20

    Which implies this was not some genius pivot to the blue wall but simply a desire to get someone experienced in foreign affairs into the job.

    Hague has already done the job anyway
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,107
    "A teacher is being sought by police after carrying a placard comparing Rishi Sunak and Suella Braverman to coconuts at Saturday's pro-Palestinian protest in central London...Marieha Mohsin Hussain, 36, took part in the Armistice Day protest while carrying the sign, the Times newspaper reported...The sign was the subject of a police appeal. The term can be seen as an offensive racial slur because it suggests a person has betrayed their race."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-coconuts-poster-rishi-sunak-suella-braverman-pro-palestine-march-b1120176.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Everyone loves diversity and inclusion, until you stick up for the Palestinians. According to an Op-Ed in the Guardian. A paper which is overwhelmingly pro-Gazan.

    How quickly the massacre of the 7th October is being forgotten.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/everyone-loves-diversity-and-inclusion-until-you-stick-up-for-palestinians/ar-AA1jTTM9?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b0f071c732fe489f80d510fd66c3d91f&ei=19

    "And that’s the point. If you are Palestinian, Arab or Muslim in the US today, or someone who is an ally of those groups, your speech is uniquely patrolled and your very right to speak is unfairly limited,"

    I love it when someone writes an article in the mass media complaining that their voice is being silenced. Especially in the context of the mass pro-Palestinian marches there have been in the US.
    Not sure if you've spent much time in the US but the debate there is skewed in an extremely pro-Israel direction compared to here. It is actually quite hard for any pro-Palestinian views to get a hearing in the mass media. Or at least that was my impression when I lived there. Maybe things have shifted since 2010, I don't know.
    I think from looking at reports that things absolutely have shifted. Haven't there been (pro-Palestinian) protests at many of the ivy league universities, for example?
    Yep. And this NYT report says young political aides in DC are rebelling against their pro Israeli bosses

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/israel-biden-letter-gaza-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Definitely a change in US attitudes; perilous for Israel

    Jerusalem needs to pursue a two state solution NOW before it is too late - once they have eliminated Hamas. That’s the hard truth for Israel

    Otherwise they will end up with a one state solution
    Mostly young Democrat aides, Republicans are generally much more pro Israel, even including Trump.

    It is probably better for Israel therefore if Trump or another Republican wins the Presidential election next year but for Ukraine it is probably better if Biden and the Democrats win again
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    They’ve just told us the turbulence is back and it’s going to get WORSE
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Something like 40% of Jews live in Israel. Some of the Jews who live elsewhere will also think of themselves as Israeli (I live in Ireland and I think of myself as British).

    So, yeah, seems likely that most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis.
    Wikipedia has, with caveats, 30% of the Jewish population of the world living in Israel, with 51% living in the US. Although it depends on how you define who counts. On those numbers, it seems unlikely that most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis.
    It only needs a minority of Jews living outside of Israel to think of themselves as Israeli to get to a majority overall. Are you really sure that it's less than a third?

    Given the numbers who, for example, think of themselves as Irish-American in the US, I'd be really surprised if there weren't a majority of Jews who had an Israeli identity.
    I'll check with my kids when they get back from school but pretty sure that don't have an Israeli identity.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201
    Probably not.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    Leon said:

    They’ve just told us the turbulence is back and it’s going to get WORSE

    It's a shame there are no aviation experts on PB but as far as I'm aware turbulence is very very unlikely to be dangerous beyond little bottles of gin flying down the aisle like someone's firing a .50 cal.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    Not sure this article gets it entirely right, because owning a car in the middle of big cities has never been particularly popular with young professionals. A few yuppies in the late 1980s in London probably weren't significant in the scheme of things.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/14/why-owning-car-millions-drivers-young-professionals
  • kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    The Met don't prosecute, the CPS does. Is there no mechanism to report a crime to the CPS and for them to direct that a police investigation take place. Maybe they should have their own police force.
  • HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    Did we see this?

    William Hague was offered FS job, refused and suggested Cameron.

    https://x.com/anandMenon1/status/1724402778724766040?s=20

    Which implies this was not some genius pivot to the blue wall but simply a desire to get someone experienced in foreign affairs into the job.

    Hague has already done the job anyway
    That would be why Hague was first choice.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    They’ve just told us the turbulence is back and it’s going to get WORSE

    It's a shame there are no aviation experts on PB but as far as I'm aware turbulence is very very unlikely to be dangerous beyond little bottles of gin flying down the aisle like someone's firing a .50 cal.
    I know that - logically. The biggest risk is not being strapped in and you get hurled from your seat breaking your neck - so just fasten your belt

    But there’s a point when logic gives way to primal fear - you’re 30,000 feet up in the air in a little metal tube which js being tossed around like a chihuahua in the jaws of an XL Bully

    I’m not at that primal fear stage YET
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Ghedebrav said:

    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Something like 40% of Jews live in Israel. Some of the Jews who live elsewhere will also think of themselves as Israeli (I live in Ireland and I think of myself as British).

    So, yeah, seems likely that most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis.
    Wikipedia has, with caveats, 30% of the Jewish population of the world living in Israel, with 51% living in the US. Although it depends on how you define who counts. On those numbers, it seems unlikely that most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis.
    It only needs a minority of Jews living outside of Israel to think of themselves as Israeli to get to a majority overall. Are you really sure that it's less than a third?

    Given the numbers who, for example, think of themselves as Irish-American in the US, I'd be really surprised if there weren't a majority of Jews who had an Israeli identity.
    I'll check with my kids when they get back from school but pretty sure that don't have an Israeli identity.
    I think some seriously crossed purposes have entered this debate: one does not need to actually consider oneself "Israeli" (I certainly don't) in order for me to care deeply about what happens there (which I certainly do).

    Many of the minority of Jews worldwide who don't consider Israel at all part of their religious or cultural identity, will still have some sort of vested interest in its affairs due to family members living there.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,672
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Virtually every Jew I know is ardently pro Israel even if they despise the Israeli government of the day

    They usually express it as: “after everything we’ve been through, we need one country we know is safe. Where we can always go if it comes to it”

    In fact I’m not sure I’ve met a Jew that doesn’t feel this, tho they must exist. Perhaps you are one
    They must be even more discombobulated recently on the one country we know is safe metric. Afaics Israel has held a view that they float in a sea of enemies who wish to destroy them and with whom they cannot negotiate for most of its (modern) history, which seems a weird kind of safety to my eyes.
    You can't see very far then. Perhaps out to Auchtermuchty if you squint.

    This whole episode came about on the eve of and arguably on account of an imminent agreement between Israel and Saudi.
    Invoke the mighty Muchty as your derisory example of the archytpical Scottish one-horse town if you like, but how many places of equivalent size can claim not one but two celebrated contributions to the musical canon?
    You are slightly proving the point because you probably need to walk 500 miles if you start out from Auchtermuchty to get anywhere of note.
    Tsk you obviously don't know the song very well. Total distance walked is 1000 miles.
    Do they actually do the walking though ?

    Aren't they just saying they would walk 500 more and then another 500, to meet some chick they fancy.

    It is a while since I heard the song.
    Yes it is merely an intent but it is expressed quite strongly. The other actions in the song (waking up, havering etc) are reported as things that are "gonna" happen but the walking is more conditional ("would"). I've seen the Proclaimers live though and I'd bet that they generally follow through on their promises.
    I guess it is also understandable that they would fall down at her door if they had walked 1000 miles to get there,
    Nah. 1,000 miles is lightweight. I walked 6,266.5 miles and ended up exactly where I started. ;)

    In fact, I started off drinking from a bottle of champagne, and ended up surrounded by horses and with a glass of whisky in my hand.

    It's amazing what I'll for for a drink....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    They’ve just told us the turbulence is back and it’s going to get WORSE

    It's a shame there are no aviation experts on PB but as far as I'm aware turbulence is very very unlikely to be dangerous beyond little bottles of gin flying down the aisle like someone's firing a .50 cal.
    I know that - logically. The biggest risk is not being strapped in and you get hurled from your seat breaking your neck - so just fasten your belt

    But there’s a point when logic gives way to primal fear - you’re 30,000 feet up in the air in a little metal tube which js being tossed around like a chihuahua in the jaws of an XL Bully

    I’m not at that primal fear stage YET
    Belt done up tight, and everything stowed away - including your ipad, unless you want to get smacked in the face by it. Phone and passport in your trousers front pocket, to make sure you still know exactly where they are after everything stops flying around.

    Keep a good look out for flying G&Ts and cabin crew.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Big day tommorow with Rwanda and the inflation numbers. I suppose with both if one goes the Gov'ts way and the other doesn't, they can pump one up on the morning rounds to try and suffocate the other.

    Also the first semi-final of the cricket. Thank God for a reshuffle to keep us all occupied for the last two cricket-free days.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/67401054

    Not quite cricket free. Beats news of war.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,001
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    They’ve just told us the turbulence is back and it’s going to get WORSE

    It's a shame there are no aviation experts on PB but as far as I'm aware turbulence is very very unlikely to be dangerous beyond little bottles of gin flying down the aisle like someone's firing a .50 cal.
    I know that - logically. The biggest risk is not being strapped in and you get hurled from your seat breaking your neck - so just fasten your belt

    But there’s a point when logic gives way to primal fear - you’re 30,000 feet up in the air in a little metal tube which js being tossed around like a chihuahua in the jaws of an XL Bully

    I’m not at that primal fear stage YET
    Belt done up tight, and everything stowed away - including your ipad, unless you want to get smacked in the face by it. Phone and passport in your trousers front pocket, to make sure you still know exactly where they are after everything stops flying around.
    If you hear someone shouting BRACE then you have a split second to work out whether it’s about to crash or there’s some news story breaking about AI or aliens.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,001
    So Suella’s threatening to do the dirty on Rishi:

    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1724372155779989996?s=46

    It’s 3 hours old so I realise it’s probably already been commented on. But my hunch is that a. she won’t release it in the end, and b. If she does it’ll be somewhat less exciting than trailed.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Everyone loves diversity and inclusion, until you stick up for the Palestinians. According to an Op-Ed in the Guardian. A paper which is overwhelmingly pro-Gazan.

    How quickly the massacre of the 7th October is being forgotten.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/everyone-loves-diversity-and-inclusion-until-you-stick-up-for-palestinians/ar-AA1jTTM9?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b0f071c732fe489f80d510fd66c3d91f&ei=19

    "And that’s the point. If you are Palestinian, Arab or Muslim in the US today, or someone who is an ally of those groups, your speech is uniquely patrolled and your very right to speak is unfairly limited,"

    I love it when someone writes an article in the mass media complaining that their voice is being silenced. Especially in the context of the mass pro-Palestinian marches there have been in the US.
    Not sure if you've spent much time in the US but the debate there is skewed in an extremely pro-Israel direction compared to here. It is actually quite hard for any pro-Palestinian views to get a hearing in the mass media. Or at least that was my impression when I lived there. Maybe things have shifted since 2010, I don't know.
    I think from looking at reports that things absolutely have shifted. Haven't there been (pro-Palestinian) protests at many of the ivy league universities, for example?
    Yep. And this NYT report says young political aides in DC are rebelling against their pro Israeli bosses

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/israel-biden-letter-gaza-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Definitely a change in US attitudes; perilous for Israel

    Jerusalem needs to pursue a two state solution NOW before it is too late - once they have eliminated Hamas. That’s the hard truth for Israel

    Otherwise they will end up with a one state solution
    "Jerusalem" as in the city the Palestinians want half of to be the capital of their state?
    Yes, Jerusalem will be a sticking point. Perhaps the city can be an interzone, like old Tangiers. Run by uninterested outsiders and agreeably libertine
    I WAS glad when they said unto me : We will go into the house of the Lord.

    Our feet shall stand in thy gates : O Jerusalem.

    Jerusalem is built as a city : that is at unity in itself.

    For thither the tribes go up, even the tribes of the Lord : to testify unto Israel, to give thanks unto the Name of the Lord.

    For there is the seat of judgement : even the seat of the house of David.

    O pray for the peace of Jerusalem : they shall prosper that love thee.

    Peace be within thy walls : and plenteousness within thy palaces.

    For my brethren and companions' sakes : I will wish thee prosperity.

    Yea, because of the house of the Lord our God : I will seek to do thee good.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,672
    "Seven members of paedophile gang guilty of running 'monstrous' child sex abuse ring"

    https://news.sky.com/story/seven-members-of-paedophile-gang-guilty-of-running-monstrous-child-sex-abuse-ring-13008082

    Words fail me. Those poor children.
  • HMG & opposition acknowledging large numbers of dead Palestinian women and children. Let's hope they're not using the Hamas Health Ministry numbers or else they're just doing their work for them.
  • Next up.... send for Ken Clarke...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,107
    TimS said:

    So Suella’s threatening to do the dirty on Rishi:

    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1724372155779989996?s=46

    It’s 3 hours old so I realise it’s probably already been commented on. But my hunch is that a. she won’t release it in the end, and b. If she does it’ll be somewhat less exciting than trailed.

    Is this like Trump saying he's got evidence of election fraud he's going to release... any day now...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited November 2023
    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,001
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Everyone loves diversity and inclusion, until you stick up for the Palestinians. According to an Op-Ed in the Guardian. A paper which is overwhelmingly pro-Gazan.

    How quickly the massacre of the 7th October is being forgotten.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/everyone-loves-diversity-and-inclusion-until-you-stick-up-for-palestinians/ar-AA1jTTM9?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b0f071c732fe489f80d510fd66c3d91f&ei=19

    "And that’s the point. If you are Palestinian, Arab or Muslim in the US today, or someone who is an ally of those groups, your speech is uniquely patrolled and your very right to speak is unfairly limited,"

    I love it when someone writes an article in the mass media complaining that their voice is being silenced. Especially in the context of the mass pro-Palestinian marches there have been in the US.
    Not sure if you've spent much time in the US but the debate there is skewed in an extremely pro-Israel direction compared to here. It is actually quite hard for any pro-Palestinian views to get a hearing in the mass media. Or at least that was my impression when I lived there. Maybe things have shifted since 2010, I don't know.
    I think from looking at reports that things absolutely have shifted. Haven't there been (pro-Palestinian) protests at many of the ivy league universities, for example?
    Yep. And this NYT report says young political aides in DC are rebelling against their pro Israeli bosses

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/israel-biden-letter-gaza-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Definitely a change in US attitudes; perilous for Israel

    Jerusalem needs to pursue a two state solution NOW before it is too late - once they have eliminated Hamas. That’s the hard truth for Israel

    Otherwise they will end up with a one state solution
    "Jerusalem" as in the city the Palestinians want half of to be the capital of their state?
    Yes, Jerusalem will be a sticking point. Perhaps the city can be an interzone, like old Tangiers. Run by uninterested outsiders and agreeably libertine
    I WAS glad when they said unto me : We will go into the house of the Lord.

    Our feet shall stand in thy gates : O Jerusalem.

    Jerusalem is built as a city : that is at unity in itself.

    For thither the tribes go up, even the tribes of the Lord : to testify unto Israel, to give thanks unto the Name of the Lord.

    For there is the seat of judgement : even the seat of the house of David.

    O pray for the peace of Jerusalem : they shall prosper that love thee.

    Peace be within thy walls : and plenteousness within thy palaces.

    For my brethren and companions' sakes : I will wish thee prosperity.

    Yea, because of the house of the Lord our God : I will seek to do thee good.
    That’s today’s ear worm sorted.
  • HMG & opposition acknowledging large numbers of dead Palestinian women and children. Let's hope they're not using the Hamas Health Ministry numbers or else they're just doing their work for them.

    If you have other numbers from a better source, feel free to share them.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,073

    Lammy needs to be careful trying to get an easy hit over Cameron not in Commons to face qs because he is a peer.

    Is Starmer sure he wont need to do the same kind of thing at some point when he is PM?

    It’s part of them game though, like the “unelected PM” stuff. The Tories did it 15 years ago and will do again. It’s Labour’s turn now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Poll taken Friday to yesterday so a bit early yet to see any change but some early encouragement for Sunak there
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,192
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    There have been suicides in the PO case.
    Yes but that is not enough for say corporate manslaughter, as in a train crash where the train company was directly responsible for passengers deaths by gross negligence or a construction company which built a building so poorly it collapsed and killed the residents of it

    The copious evidence that management, and lawyers knowingly brought prosecutions on evidence they knew not to be true - and continued to do so over an extended period of time - provides a very strong prima facie case for bringing conspiracy charges.

    The individual victims have a similarly strong case to sue the PO in a civil court for malicious prosecution. There's normally a pretty high bar for that, but it seems already to have been cleared.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388

    Lammy needs to be careful trying to get an easy hit over Cameron not in Commons to face qs because he is a peer.

    Is Starmer sure he wont need to do the same kind of thing at some point when he is PM?

    On which, there was a notable change in tone in parliament this morning. Both Mitchell (Cameron's representative in the Commons) and Lammy beginning to be more critical of the huge loss of civilian lives in Gaza. Mitchell calling for significantly extended humanitarian pauses, and expressing concern about fighting in and around hospitals. Tories and Labour pretty much on the same page. Very similar to what Biden and Blinken have been saying in the USA over the last couple of days.

    No calls for a ceasefire yet, but it's edging there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
  • Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Fieldwork was Friday to Monday.
  • Off for now, but the lack of an each way option for Las Vegas is disappointing.
  • HMG & opposition acknowledging large numbers of dead Palestinian women and children. Let's hope they're not using the Hamas Health Ministry numbers or else they're just doing their work for them.

    If you have other numbers from a better source, feel free to share them.
    Sorry, probably too deadpan there.
    Just channelling a certain strain of PB commentary.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Poll taken Friday to yesterday so a bit early yet to see any change but some early encouragement for Sunak there
    If Sunak DOES get a sustained 4 point bounce from the reshuffle then I shall eat the humblest of pies. I still don’t expect it, tho
  • HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    There have been suicides in the PO case.
    Yes but that is not enough for say corporate manslaughter, as in a train crash where the train company was directly responsible for passengers deaths by gross negligence or a construction company which built a building so poorly it collapsed and killed the residents of it

    It would indeed be difficult, but not impossible.

    The facts of the PO case are so egregious, I wouldn't rule it out.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219
    Anyone know what the latest is with the boundary changes?
  • HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    There have been suicides in the PO case.
    Yes but that is not enough for say corporate manslaughter, as in a train crash where the train company was directly responsible for passengers deaths by gross negligence or a construction company which built a building so poorly it collapsed and killed the residents of it

    It would indeed be difficult, but not impossible.

    The facts of the PO case are so egregious, I wouldn't rule it out.
    I've sent Lord Cameron a message telling him to tell Sunak to appoint Cyclefree to run the inquiry.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,656
    edited November 2023
    Stocky said:

    Anyone know what the latest is with the boundary changes?

    It was approved by the King/Privy Council a few weeks ago.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,107
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201
    edited November 2023
    Predictions for tomorrow ?

    CPI 0.2 above consensus target, Gov't loses Rwanda case, India beat the Kiwis...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,889
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Poll taken Friday to yesterday so a bit early yet to see any change but some early encouragement for Sunak there
    Of course, that might have been support for the former Home Secretary's stance on rough sleepers and the London marches.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    edited November 2023
    USA CPI inflation 3.2%, down from 3.7% in September. Prices flat month-on-month.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,390
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    There have been suicides in the PO case.
    Yes but that is not enough for say corporate manslaughter, as in a train crash where the train company was directly responsible for passengers deaths by gross negligence or a construction company which built a building so poorly it collapsed and killed the residents of it

    The copious evidence that management, and lawyers knowingly brought prosecutions on evidence they knew not to be true - and continued to do so over an extended period of time - provides a very strong prima facie case for bringing conspiracy charges.

    The individual victims have a similarly strong case to sue the PO in a civil court for malicious prosecution. There's normally a pretty high bar for that, but it seems already to have been cleared.
    Could they sue the people responsible for the case individually - I’m not usually a vindictive person but in the case of the PO prosecutors i believe an example should be made
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    What was our wager again?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    What was our wager again?
    £80,000
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,107
    Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Via @DeltapollUK, fieldwork 10-13 Nov.
    Changes w/ 3-6 Nov.

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    There have been suicides in the PO case.
    Yes but that is not enough for say corporate manslaughter, as in a train crash where the train company was directly responsible for passengers deaths by gross negligence or a construction company which built a building so poorly it collapsed and killed the residents of it

    The copious evidence that management, and lawyers knowingly brought prosecutions on evidence they knew not to be true - and continued to do so over an extended period of time - provides a very strong prima facie case for bringing conspiracy charges.

    The individual victims have a similarly strong case to sue the PO in a civil court for malicious prosecution. There's normally a pretty high bar for that, but it seems already to have been cleared.
    Maybe malicious prosecution yes if they knew the IT financial system was faulty, no evidence for manslaughter though
  • Sandpit said:

    USA CPI inflation 3.2%, down from 3.7% in September. Prices flat month-on-month.

    In the mysterious polling dislocation of US politics, that probably means another 2 pts on Trump's numbers.
  • @LOS_Fisher

    Seeking reax from Western diplomats about David Cameron's appointment, the recurring theme is he's a 'known quantity'... & perhaps unsurprisingly, that's seen as a firm positive after all the chopping and changing at the top of the UK govt in the past couple of years


    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1724378981976191168
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Poll taken Friday to yesterday so a bit early yet to see any change but some early encouragement for Sunak there
    If Sunak DOES get a sustained 4 point bounce from the reshuffle then I shall eat the humblest of pies. I still don’t expect it, tho
    I think I said "a few points" yesterday, because it would pull some moderate Tories back from the Liberals. I reckon it's fairly easy picking. You
    lose a hard rightwing moronic fruitcake and replace her with someone who can rub two braincells together, you are likely to gain something from it. But, I might just be talking my book.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    A terrifying short thread on Ageing Britain (and the ageing world, for that matter)

    “Britain is ageing, rapidly. By 2026, there will be more people aged over 65 than under 18 for the first time in our history. By 2072, the UK is set to have 1.9 people of working age per pensioner, down from 3.3 today. In fact, the workforce is set to start shrinking as of 2040s.”

    We worry about AI, but in fact AI is the cavalry in a western - the only force that can save us

    https://x.com/rcolvile/status/1724421879945994436?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    There have been suicides in the PO case.
    Yes but that is not enough for say corporate manslaughter, as in a train crash where the train company was directly responsible for passengers deaths by gross negligence or a construction company which built a building so poorly it collapsed and killed the residents of it

    The copious evidence that management, and lawyers knowingly brought prosecutions on evidence they knew not to be true - and continued to do so over an extended period of time - provides a very strong prima facie case for bringing conspiracy charges.

    The individual victims have a similarly strong case to sue the PO in a civil court for malicious prosecution. There's normally a pretty high bar for that, but it seems already to have been cleared.
    Could they sue the people responsible for the case individually - I’m not usually a vindictive person but in the case of the PO prosecutors i believe an example should be made
    It’s a serious and egregious abuse of a very specific power to initiate prosecutions. There must have been a number of senior individuals who were both aware that the Horizon system couldn’t add up, and that the prosecutions were continuing nonetheless.

    These individuals need to explain to twelve ordinary men and women, why they shoudn’t be going to prison.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,107
    edited November 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    The "19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos" is a fairly recent invention: 19th or even 20th century IIRC. Prior to that we had Westphalian states (legal countries with peoples and borders), and prior to that we had realms (kings with peoples but not necessarily borders - see empires) and tribes (groups of people with no defined borders)

    Happy to be contradicted on this, but I'm pretty sure the concept of a state with legal personality, borders and a multiethnic people is pretty recent (within the last 300? years), and the concept of a state with legal personality, borders and a monoethnic people is also recent, particularly in WW1/aftermath/WW2/aftermath.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,390
    edited November 2023
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    There have been suicides in the PO case.
    Yes but that is not enough for say corporate manslaughter, as in a train crash where the train company was directly responsible for passengers deaths by gross negligence or a construction company which built a building so poorly it collapsed and killed the residents of it

    The copious evidence that management, and lawyers knowingly brought prosecutions on evidence they knew not to be true - and continued to do so over an extended period of time - provides a very strong prima facie case for bringing conspiracy charges.

    The individual victims have a similarly strong case to sue the PO in a civil court for malicious prosecution. There's normally a pretty high bar for that, but it seems already to have been cleared.
    Could they sue the people responsible for the case individually - I’m not usually a vindictive person but in the case of the PO prosecutors i believe an example should be made
    It’s a serious and egregious abuse of a very specific power to initiate prosecutions. There must have been a number of senior individuals who were both aware that the Horizon system couldn’t add up, and that the prosecutions were continuing nonetheless.

    These individuals need to explain to twelve ordinary men and women, why they shoudn’t be going to prison.
    From what I’ve heard there were a lot of people willing to hide evidence that would have helped the defence lawyers actually defend the case.

    I’m more inclined to the viewpoint that jail isn’t good enough for them - they should be made to compensate the people involved until they are penniless and bankrupt (as they left the victims to be) and only after that should the persecutions kick off.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,672
    Sadly one more victim of Hamas's atrocity has been found.

    https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1724199460215865617

    I mean, looking at her, she was obviously a member of the IDF, wasn't she?

    Other "peace activists" might want to consider that Hamas don't care if you're a peace activist. They'll kill you anyway.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,390
    edited November 2023
    Ignore me - vanilla being stupid
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    @SamCoatesSky

    EXC

    Sacking Suella Braverman means "suicide" for Tory party and Rishi Sunak has just "thrown the election away" according to leaked WhatsApp messages between members of grassroot Tory organisation

    "I've not been this angry since Boris was forced out"
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    What was our wager again?
    £80,000
    So any poll you post or have posted which has Reform on 4% I win £80,000?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,107
    Leon said:

    A terrifying short thread on Ageing Britain (and the ageing world, for that matter)

    “Britain is ageing, rapidly. By 2026, there will be more people aged over 65 than under 18 for the first time in our history. By 2072, the UK is set to have 1.9 people of working age per pensioner, down from 3.3 today. In fact, the workforce is set to start shrinking as of 2040s.”

    We worry about AI, but in fact AI is the cavalry in a western - the only force that can save us

    https://x.com/rcolvile/status/1724421879945994436?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Apologies for continually talking to you today, but you keep bringing up salient points and (as you are soon to die in a plane crash) I don't have a lot of time. This is the reason why the Government is importing people like mad, and @rcs1000 did a whole video on aging population, which annoyingly I cannot find.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    The "19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos" is a fairly recent invention: 19th or even 20th century IIRC. Prior to that we had Westphalian states (legal countries with peoples and borders), and prior to that we had realms (kings with peoples but not necessarily borders - see empires) and tribes (groups of people with no defined borders)

    Happy to be contradicted on this, but I'm pretty sure the concept of a state with legal personality, borders and a multiethnic people is pretty recent (within the last 300? years), and the concept of a state with legal personality, borders and a monoethnic people is also recent, particularly in WW1/aftermath/WW2/aftermath.
    Philip Bobbitt is your friend here.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533
    TimS said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Everyone loves diversity and inclusion, until you stick up for the Palestinians. According to an Op-Ed in the Guardian. A paper which is overwhelmingly pro-Gazan.

    How quickly the massacre of the 7th October is being forgotten.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/everyone-loves-diversity-and-inclusion-until-you-stick-up-for-palestinians/ar-AA1jTTM9?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=b0f071c732fe489f80d510fd66c3d91f&ei=19

    "And that’s the point. If you are Palestinian, Arab or Muslim in the US today, or someone who is an ally of those groups, your speech is uniquely patrolled and your very right to speak is unfairly limited,"

    I love it when someone writes an article in the mass media complaining that their voice is being silenced. Especially in the context of the mass pro-Palestinian marches there have been in the US.
    Not sure if you've spent much time in the US but the debate there is skewed in an extremely pro-Israel direction compared to here. It is actually quite hard for any pro-Palestinian views to get a hearing in the mass media. Or at least that was my impression when I lived there. Maybe things have shifted since 2010, I don't know.
    I think from looking at reports that things absolutely have shifted. Haven't there been (pro-Palestinian) protests at many of the ivy league universities, for example?
    Yep. And this NYT report says young political aides in DC are rebelling against their pro Israeli bosses

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/israel-biden-letter-gaza-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

    Definitely a change in US attitudes; perilous for Israel

    Jerusalem needs to pursue a two state solution NOW before it is too late - once they have eliminated Hamas. That’s the hard truth for Israel

    Otherwise they will end up with a one state solution
    "Jerusalem" as in the city the Palestinians want half of to be the capital of their state?
    Yes, Jerusalem will be a sticking point. Perhaps the city can be an interzone, like old Tangiers. Run by uninterested outsiders and agreeably libertine
    I WAS glad when they said unto me : We will go into the house of the Lord.

    Our feet shall stand in thy gates : O Jerusalem.

    Jerusalem is built as a city : that is at unity in itself.

    For thither the tribes go up, even the tribes of the Lord : to testify unto Israel, to give thanks unto the Name of the Lord.

    For there is the seat of judgement : even the seat of the house of David.

    O pray for the peace of Jerusalem : they shall prosper that love thee.

    Peace be within thy walls : and plenteousness within thy palaces.

    For my brethren and companions' sakes : I will wish thee prosperity.

    Yea, because of the house of the Lord our God : I will seek to do thee good.
    That’s today’s ear worm sorted.
    Vivat Rex
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    Yeah that’s great - in Kumbaya-LaLaLand

    But we don’t live there. And until we do, history has proven that Jews get persecuted more than any other minority, and this has been happening for twenty centuries - and it peaked in living memory, in our own continent - so a safe nation for Jews to live seems a reasonable ask, until we reach your utopia

    Of course it would have been better in retrospect if this had been done without the nakba, but we are where we are

    A two state solution guaranteed by all major powers and all major Islamic nations is the only sensible answer. It will be hard to achieve but every other answer is even worse, and more dangerous
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    @MrHarryCole

    New Cons deny claim there were only 12 at their meeting last night, say it was 20

    But understand some "elders of the right" also met last night to lament return of Cameron

    Mood is fairly sulphurous

    "I'm not sure I'm even voting for myself at this point", laments one Tory MP
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    biggles said:


    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Post Office Inquiry has resumed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrnFQLD_mA

    Good grief. Debbie Stapel, PO Investigator, has just stated openly that the PO and Fujitsu should have acknowledged the Horizon system was faulty, and that it was possible to manually alter branch accounts remotely with Subpostmasters knowing.

    They knew this, but they proceeded with prosecutions anyway, and didn't advise the defence lawyers of these obvious and catastrophic flaws.

    Surely on that evidence alone, they have to be jailed? The only questions remaining is who exactly, how many and for how long?
    They've certainly opened themselves to being sued for malicious prosecution, without any credible defence.

    Criminal prosecutions for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice are up the the DPP.
    Wow. I don’t think “misconduct in a public office” has a max sentence….
    It doesn't. I took advice from a prosecuting lawyer on raising this for the campaign I am involved in and was told the police are not very keen unless someone has died (eg Hillsborough), although the PO case does have a very high level of suffering.

    I was told if I was interested in pursuing it (I didn't) to contact the local plod. They wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about but would point me in the right direction.

    I am aware of an old campaign of individuals who have brought serious complaints to the PHSO where NHS treatment has gone wrong and have felt the PHSO have been guilty of this in their work on their complaints and have tried to get the Met to prosecute and the Met have refused. I have no idea of the merit of the complaints.
    There have been suicides in the PO case.
    Yes but that is not enough for say corporate manslaughter, as in a train crash where the train company was directly responsible for passengers deaths by gross negligence or a construction company which built a building so poorly it collapsed and killed the residents of it

    The copious evidence that management, and lawyers knowingly brought prosecutions on evidence they knew not to be true - and continued to do so over an extended period of time - provides a very strong prima facie case for bringing conspiracy charges.

    The individual victims have a similarly strong case to sue the PO in a civil court for malicious prosecution. There's normally a pretty high bar for that, but it seems already to have been cleared.
    Maybe malicious prosecution yes if they knew the IT financial system was faulty, no evidence for manslaughter though
    Pursuing further knowingly bogus prosecutions after people had committed suicide in other cases?

    I would say that they are morally responsible. Obviously, needs a lawyer to say what the legal responsibility is.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,107
    edited November 2023
    TOPPING said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    The "19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos" is a fairly recent invention: 19th or even 20th century IIRC. Prior to that we had Westphalian states (legal countries with peoples and borders), and prior to that we had realms (kings with peoples but not necessarily borders - see empires) and tribes (groups of people with no defined borders)

    Happy to be contradicted on this, but I'm pretty sure the concept of a state with legal personality, borders and a multiethnic people is pretty recent (within the last 300? years), and the concept of a state with legal personality, borders and a monoethnic people is also recent, particularly in WW1/aftermath/WW2/aftermath.
    Philip Bobbitt is your friend here.
    Noted. Thank you. I shall read/watch.

    Philip Bobbitt "The End of the Era of Industrial Nation-States”, Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs, Oct 26, 2018, see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8A-Sb9uRfs

    Answering a question from Council on Foreign Relations' Max Boot, Yale Law School's Philip Bobbitt says that we could be entering a new era in the international order. For full transcript and audio, please go to: https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/media/series/39/20181016-fight-for-liberty-max-boot-philip-bobbitt-garry-kasparov-bret-stephens
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    @LOS_Fisher

    NEW: Leaders of right-wing Tory caucus announce plans to organise within party, amid reshuffle outrage

    New Conservatives will build powerbase by fundraising & recruiting supporters to help their MP members, plus develop their own policy proposals…

    Big headache looms for Sunak




    If they can organise their way out of a wet paper bag I will be surprised...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    viewcode said:

    "A teacher is being sought by police after carrying a placard comparing Rishi Sunak and Suella Braverman to coconuts at Saturday's pro-Palestinian protest in central London...Marieha Mohsin Hussain, 36, took part in the Armistice Day protest while carrying the sign, the Times newspaper reported...The sign was the subject of a police appeal. The term can be seen as an offensive racial slur because it suggests a person has betrayed their race."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/met-police-coconuts-poster-rishi-sunak-suella-braverman-pro-palestine-march-b1120176.html

    Surely plod knows where a teacher is!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    @LOS_Fisher

    The New Conservatives have built a six-figure war chest to date, acc to insider

    "This reshuffle is the San Andreas Fault of British politics. There's money in the kitty & it'll start to flow v soon," says source

    Here's statement from NC co-chairs Danny Kruger & Miriam Cates 👇

    https://x.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1724431654620459272?s=20
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,418

    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Something like 40% of Jews live in Israel. Some of the Jews who live elsewhere will also think of themselves as Israeli (I live in Ireland and I think of myself as British).

    So, yeah, seems likely that most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis.
    Wikipedia has, with caveats, 30% of the Jewish population of the world living in Israel, with 51% living in the US. Although it depends on how you define who counts. On those numbers, it seems unlikely that most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis.
    It only needs a minority of Jews living outside of Israel to think of themselves as Israeli to get to a majority overall. Are you really sure that it's less than a third?

    Given the numbers who, for example, think of themselves as Irish-American in the US, I'd be really surprised if there weren't a majority of Jews who had an Israeli identity.
    I'd be wary of going too far down this rabbit hole as it can be antisemitic to describe non-Israeli Jews as owing their first loyalty to Israel.
    Eye-roll

    I didn't say anything about loyalty. It wouldn't occur to me to think that any Irish-Americans owed their first loyalty to Ireland, for example.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,390
    edited November 2023
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    A terrifying short thread on Ageing Britain (and the ageing world, for that matter)

    “Britain is ageing, rapidly. By 2026, there will be more people aged over 65 than under 18 for the first time in our history. By 2072, the UK is set to have 1.9 people of working age per pensioner, down from 3.3 today. In fact, the workforce is set to start shrinking as of 2040s.”

    We worry about AI, but in fact AI is the cavalry in a western - the only force that can save us

    https://x.com/rcolvile/status/1724421879945994436?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Apologies for continually talking to you today, but you keep bringing up salient points and (as you are soon to die in a plane crash) I don't have a lot of time. This is the reason why the Government is importing people like mad, and @rcs1000 did a whole video on aging population, which annoyingly I cannot find.

    If you are importing people you need to ensure everyone has somewhere to live.

    You can’t continue to cram more and more people into the same number of houses
  • Scott_xP said:

    @LOS_Fisher

    The New Conservatives have built a six-figure war chest to date, acc to insider

    "This reshuffle is the San Andreas Fault of British politics. There's money in the kitty & it'll start to flow v soon," says source

    Here's statement from NC co-chairs Danny Kruger & Miriam Cates 👇

    https://x.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1724431654620459272?s=20

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/14/britain-will-soon-have-a-populist-right-party/
  • Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    New Cons deny claim there were only 12 at their meeting last night, say it was 20

    But understand some "elders of the right" also met last night to lament return of Cameron

    Mood is fairly sulphurous

    "I'm not sure I'm even voting for myself at this point", laments one Tory MP

    Isn't "by-passing" CCHQ a 'crime' that means lose the whip??
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    eek said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    A terrifying short thread on Ageing Britain (and the ageing world, for that matter)

    “Britain is ageing, rapidly. By 2026, there will be more people aged over 65 than under 18 for the first time in our history. By 2072, the UK is set to have 1.9 people of working age per pensioner, down from 3.3 today. In fact, the workforce is set to start shrinking as of 2040s.”

    We worry about AI, but in fact AI is the cavalry in a western - the only force that can save us

    https://x.com/rcolvile/status/1724421879945994436?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Apologies for continually talking to you today, but you keep bringing up salient points and (as you are soon to die in a plane crash) I don't have a lot of time. This is the reason why the Government is importing people like mad, and @rcs1000 did a whole video on aging population, which annoyingly I cannot find.

    If you are importing people you need to ensure everyone has somewhere to live.

    You can’t continue to cram more and more people into the same number of houses
    I still find it utterly fascinating, that the same young liberals complaining about being unable to buy a house anywhere near London, are also some of the most in favour of more immigration.

    As ever, the answer is build more houses. Then build a few more after that, then find new ways of building houses, then find new places in which to build houses.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @LOS_Fisher

    The New Conservatives have built a six-figure war chest to date, acc to insider

    "This reshuffle is the San Andreas Fault of British politics. There's money in the kitty & it'll start to flow v soon," says source

    Here's statement from NC co-chairs Danny Kruger & Miriam Cates 👇

    https://x.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1724431654620459272?s=20

    6 figures ain't what it used to be, with inflation and all that.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,107

    Scott_xP said:

    @LOS_Fisher

    The New Conservatives have built a six-figure war chest to date, acc to insider

    "This reshuffle is the San Andreas Fault of British politics. There's money in the kitty & it'll start to flow v soon," says source

    Here's statement from NC co-chairs Danny Kruger & Miriam Cates 👇

    https://x.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1724431654620459272?s=20

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/14/britain-will-soon-have-a-populist-right-party/
    I am tempted to say "good" because it would crash and burn, and drag the Conservatives down with in under FPTP. However, the US and elsewhere have taught us to be wary of democratic backsliding and how easy it is for fascism to become mainstream.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,672
    TOPPING said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    The "19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos" is a fairly recent invention: 19th or even 20th century IIRC. Prior to that we had Westphalian states (legal countries with peoples and borders), and prior to that we had realms (kings with peoples but not necessarily borders - see empires) and tribes (groups of people with no defined borders)

    Happy to be contradicted on this, but I'm pretty sure the concept of a state with legal personality, borders and a multiethnic people is pretty recent (within the last 300? years), and the concept of a state with legal personality, borders and a monoethnic people is also recent, particularly in WW1/aftermath/WW2/aftermath.
    Philip Bobbitt is your friend here.
    Just as long as it's not Wayne Bobbitt...
  • Northampton landscaper abused over Waterloo Station 'racism' video

    A man mistakenly accused on social media of a racially aggravated incident after footage was posted online says he has received "incessant" abuse.

    Jamie Turner, 34, of Northampton, was wrongly identified as one of a group of men shouting at pro-Palestinian protesters at Waterloo Station, London.

    He said his phone "lit up like a Christmas tree" with "incessant calls, voicemails and death threats"
    .
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-67408915
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,418
    edited November 2023
    Stocky said:

    Anyone know what the latest is with the boundary changes?

    My understanding is that the report has been laid before the Privy Council, but there hasn't since been a meeting of the Privy Council at which KCIII can say "approved", so that they will come into effect.

    Though it's possible the November Privy Council meeting recently happened and the website hasn't been updated yet.

    https://privycouncil.independent.gov.uk/meetings-and-orders/orders-in-council/
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,750

    Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Fieldwork was Friday to Monday.
    Were supporters of Sue Ellen given any opportunity to revise their votes on Monday?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,107

    Northampton landscaper abused over Waterloo Station 'racism' video

    A man mistakenly accused on social media of a racially aggravated incident after footage was posted online says he has received "incessant" abuse.

    Jamie Turner, 34, of Northampton, was wrongly identified as one of a group of men shouting at pro-Palestinian protesters at Waterloo Station, London.

    He said his phone "lit up like a Christmas tree" with "incessant calls, voicemails and death threats"
    .
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-67408915

    Another social media pile-on gone wrong.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000

    @PaulBrandITV

    70% of the public say Rishi Sunak was right to sack Suella Braverman. Just 17% think he was wrong.

    https://x.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1724435421390610478?s=20
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    With their history, it would frankly be incredible if most Jews DIDN’T care about Israel

    Of course, Israel is the only nation in the world with a Jewish majority, therefore the only nation in the world Jews can truly be safe
    Is the only place that members of a particular religious, ethnic or ethno-religious group can truly be safe in a nation where they are a majority? That view is both depressingly pessimistic and harks back to a some 19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos that I thought we had long since abandoned.

    We should make the world safe for all minorities and majorities.
    The "19th-century notion of the nation state built around an ethnos" is a fairly recent invention: 19th or even 20th century IIRC. Prior to that we had Westphalian states (legal countries with peoples and borders), and prior to that we had realms (kings with peoples but not necessarily borders - see empires) and tribes (groups of people with no defined borders)

    Happy to be contradicted on this, but I'm pretty sure the concept of a state with legal personality, borders and a multiethnic people is pretty recent (within the last 300? years), and the concept of a state with legal personality, borders and a monoethnic people is also recent, particularly in WW1/aftermath/WW2/aftermath.
    Mildly controversial opinion but I've often thought that the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman entities was a slow burn catastrophe for the world. I say "entities" because they did not have to, necessarily, continue as autocratic Empires. Also leaving the Saudis in charge of most of Arabia hasn't really helped.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023

    Northampton landscaper abused over Waterloo Station 'racism' video

    A man mistakenly accused on social media of a racially aggravated incident after footage was posted online says he has received "incessant" abuse.

    Jamie Turner, 34, of Northampton, was wrongly identified as one of a group of men shouting at pro-Palestinian protesters at Waterloo Station, London.

    He said his phone "lit up like a Christmas tree" with "incessant calls, voicemails and death threats"
    .
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-67408915

    Another social media pile-on gone wrong.
    At university, there was apparently a doppelganger of me at another college, who I got plenty of second hand reports was quite a naughty chap. I never actually met them, but the number of times I had to explain no it wasn't be in such and such a bar on top of the bar, shirt off, singing then fighting with the staff when they tried to get them down....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,918
    edited November 2023
    Senior Stephen Lawrence officer Ray Adams was corrupt, says secret Met report
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67372493

    Quelle surprise.

    ETA: careful now. He is still alive and able to sue.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmmm. Maybe I was wrong about Cameron? But I doubt this poll was done this morning



    LAB: 44% (-1)
    CON: 28% (+4)
    LDM: 13% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (-1)
    RFM: 4% (-2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    https://x.com/electionmapsuk/status/1724411566081077550?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Poll taken Friday to yesterday so a bit early yet to see any change but some early encouragement for Sunak there
    The same pollster saw a 5 point bounce the other way a month ago.
This discussion has been closed.