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Can Cameron make Sunak’s election challenge any easier – politicalbetting.com

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    That one needs a complaint to Uber and, I think, the relevant TFL Regulatory Office.

    They are (at last) doing some work on refusals to transport Guide Dogs (where there is a legal duty to accept). They may address this, too.
    Apparently “Jews don’t take Ubers” is an actual thing

    Awful
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,192
    Leon said:

    We have imported huge amounts of anti-Semitism. When will we admit this was a dreadful mistake?

    What’s so troubling about that Uber anecdote is that underneath it half the people are saying “yeah this happened to me, too” - showing that it is widespread - and the other half are saying “yeah that didn’t happen, you made it up”. Total denial
    of the problem

    There is one solution to this:
    https://support-uber.com/en_az/support/taxi-all-app/feedback/behavior.html
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    I think it may save them a couple of seats, if he gets some prominence. But that's all. It's a slight indication that the Conservatives may not shift more to the weirdo right.

    The fact the Labour attack dogs are going for him so strongly, shows they think he is a threat.

    Yes, that's about it, JJ. Maybe a dozen seats, I would say - partly because he is a figure of substance (as opposed to, say, Silly Suella) and partly because it indicates an edging away from the right towards the more defensible centre ground.

    Labour will take him seriously, but the outcome of the next GE looks as nailed on as ever. Tories to lose about 150 seats is what I am predicting now.
    I think the Cameron resurrection is a threat primarily to the Lib Dems, whose voters have fond memories of the sunny days in the Rose Garden and for whom Cameron in his hug a hoodie pomp represents the acceptable face of Toryism. Voters in the seats Labour is targeting remember the coalition years primarily for the austerity that Cameron and his Lib Dem useful idiots visited on their communities. They will despise Cameron either for calling the Brexit referendum, or for being a Remainer. Labour will be happy to have Cameron back, but the Lib Dems will be worried.
    Really, Mr Boy? How many Lib Dem voters have you met recently?

    I remember Cameron as somebody thoroughly false and hypocritical, who managed to exploit the Lib Dems in the Coalition years for all he was worth. They were always being sent out to announce the bad news that the Tories created.

    And then at the end, when what he really wanted was to remain in the EU and to continue with the Coalition, since this would keep his right-wing extremists under control, he led a feeble Remain campaign, with all the wrong messages, and turned his rottweilers loose to run amok in the Lib Dem held constituencies. The result was as we have seen since 2015 - a shambolic disaster for the country.

    The Coalition government is best remembered as a curate's egg - the good parts being the strong and stable Lib Dem ministers, not least Lynne Featherstone, who somebody has alreadys remembered here.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    We have imported huge amounts of anti-Semitism. When will we admit this was a dreadful mistake?

    What’s so troubling about that Uber anecdote is that underneath it half the people are saying “yeah this happened to me, too” - showing that it is widespread - and the other half are saying “yeah that didn’t happen, you made it up”. Total denial
    of the problem

    There is one solution to this:
    https://support-uber.com/en_az/support/taxi-all-app/feedback/behavior.html
    But the driver can down rate you in return?
  • Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.
  • Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    Does it say anywhere on that thread if the Uber driver was 'imported' or have you made an assumption?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    That one needs a complaint to Uber and, I think, the relevant TFL Regulatory Office.

    They are (at last) doing some work on refusals to transport Guide Dogs (where there is a legal duty to accept). They may address this, too.
    Apparently “Jews don’t take Ubers” is an actual thing

    Awful
    Interesting to note that on the thread a lot of replies assume it is a Muslim Uber driver, which is not stated.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody asked on the last thread why nobody had a good word to say about Braverman while she was in office.

    I would take issue with this. I had many good words for her.

    I just didn't want to say them on here because OGH would have banned me.

    Interesting that Sunak had decided to replace her well before the article, having already set in train the Cameron recruitment.
    I agree. I suspect they had a bust up a while back. She then went more progressively out on a limb to embarrass him and he lined up a successor . Neither was shocked at the sacking.
    It does make him look marginally more decisive than he was being given credit for last week.

    It will be interesting to see how much of a role Cameron is given outside if his direct brief. I am guessing his appointment signals a deliberate change in the political complexion of Sunak's government.
    Cant see how much will change. Sunak has done little with his tenure as PM.

    Hunt will no doubt spring out and claim he has done all this hard work and followed Rishsi plan so we can have a bit of our own money back before an election. Bribing us with our own money as the saying goes. But it will be market day and he wont have done enough to fatten the pig.

    We will go in to an election with three parties trying to claim the same space and choice only available at the extremes.
    All three parties are hedged in by the same demographic and economic constraints as well as the dead albatross of Brexit, so not surprising that they look the same.

    There is no original political thought out there, nor coherent plan for the country.
    This dead albatross exists only in your head. The UK has not collapsed post Brexit. Brexits failure is not to have delivered more upside than if we had stayed in, you can debate all day as to why.
    The new passports really are nicer, tho

    I generously accept this is unlikely to mollify the 10m Remoaners driven mad by Brexit. And they have a point

    But the passports are better now - aesthetically. As promised
    You could have had the blue passport, as if that matters at all, without the economic slump, political instability, enervation of influence and vast cultural schism though. It was possible within the EU, see Croatia.
    No, we needed the moral spur of actual Brexit to give us the glowing self confidence to design our own passports. And deep dark lovely blue, they are
    I've got to say that "glowing self-confidence" doesn't appear to be overt characteristic of post-2016 UK.

    I hope Starmer switches them back to red. That'd be funny.
    Not gonna happen tho, is it? He’s too scared of the Brexit demons (and afraid people will remember his 2nd voteness). So it won’t be reversed just like Brexit won’t be reversed. Brexit is done. Cope
    Not sure you’ve got this one right, and with it the general tenure of Starmer’s Government.

    I’ve seen this before. I can just remember Mrs Thatcher and the way she grew in confidence and authority. It wasn’t like that at the beginning. She got in on a 44 seat majority which is amazing considering the shitshow she inherited including the Winter of Discontent.

    Her policies really only unfolded, like an emergent butterfly after two or three years, notably after the triumph (as the media saw it) of the Falklands conflict.

    I think it will be the same with Keir Starmer. Cautious now because he has to be. He has to win the trust of middle Britain, which was scared rigid by Corbyn, with good reason.

    I predict that after his general second General Election victory Keir Starmer will hold a referendum about closer ties with Europe. That may well even include a form of EU membership. The economic arguments, which were drowned out in 2016 by the political loons and lies, will be so compelling that this country will inevitably wish to rejoin. Plus, to be frank about it, the old boomers will be dying off so it becomes a whole load more likely.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    That one needs a complaint to Uber and, I think, the relevant TFL Regulatory Office.

    They are (at last) doing some work on refusals to transport Guide Dogs (where there is a legal duty to accept). They may address this, too.
    Apparently “Jews don’t take Ubers” is an actual thing

    Awful
    Interesting to note that on the thread a lot of replies assume it is a Muslim Uber driver, which is not stated.
    I’m afraid that is my assumption. What are the chances? 90%?

    As far as I can recall, the only overt and serious anti-Semitism I have heard in many years has been from Muslims

    I’m sure it exists elsewhere too, on the far right etc, but - and this may surprise PB - I don’t generally hang out with Nick Griffin or Nazi skinheads
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    Does it say anywhere on that thread if the Uber driver was 'imported' or have you made an assumption?
    Yes, I’ve made an assumption - for the reason stated above
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388
    algarkirk said:

    Holden Dick utterly destroyed by Ed Balls on GMB. It’s becoming the best show on telly. Balls is a proper old school bruiser.

    Is that the new Tory chairman fellow? He was terrible on R4 Today this morning, hopeless. He was much less articulate than the Aussie who had been on earlier describing how he took 6 wickets in 6 balls, who was dryly hilarious.
    Yes, I listened to that Richard Holden interview, with softball questions from Nick Robinson. It was excruciatingly awful, as Holden was utterly incoherent and could barely string a sentence together.

    Having been slightly concerned that yesterday's reshuffle might move the dial a bit, I'm reassured that Sunak's judgement is incapable of doing so. Appointing such an idiot as Chair of his party is baffling.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,724
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    Rumours of a freeze in working age benefits.

    Just to remind everyone why they were glad to see Cameron and Osborne piss off in 2016?
    Even more demand on food banks at a time when less people are donating to them...
    Fewer not less
  • Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial. It either didn't happen despite Hamas go-pros / live stream, or was just a small proportion of those involved in the mission who were over-excited freedom fighters who got carried away attacking civilians, the majority were combatants, or yeah but I saw a fake photo on twitter, so show me the proof of babies being beheaded, or well yeah 1 was beheaded but not 40, or well there was the odd rape and baby baking, but it was mostly peaceful.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    It’s quite amazing. I think: drunk and angry
  • Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    That one needs a complaint to Uber and, I think, the relevant TFL Regulatory Office.

    They are (at last) doing some work on refusals to transport Guide Dogs (where there is a legal duty to accept). They may address this, too.
    Apparently “Jews don’t take Ubers” is an actual thing

    Awful
    Interesting to note that on the thread a lot of replies assume it is a Muslim Uber driver, which is not stated.
    I’m afraid that is my assumption. What are the chances? 90%?

    As far as I can recall, the only overt and serious anti-Semitism I have heard in many years has been from Muslims

    I’m sure it exists elsewhere too, on the far right etc, but - and this may surprise PB - I don’t generally hang out with Nick Griffin or Nazi skinheads
    So you missed all the Jews Will Not Replace Us stuff?
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    Does it say anywhere on that thread if the Uber driver was 'imported' or have you made an assumption?
    Yes, I’ve made an assumption - for the reason stated above
    The Flint Knappers' Gazette commitment to verifiable facts plain to see.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Morning @Big_G_NorthWales I’m back in Surrey staying with my tory friend.

    She’s cock-a-hoop about DC’s return, but then she hasn’t yet read the Suzanne Heywood book that I have lent her. Her views on Cameron will assuredly change when she has.

    The general sense of a return to the middle has made her visibly glowing. She is elated at the demise of Braverman, who was one of the main reasons why she could not bring herself to vote Conservative. When I pointed out about Esther McVey’s anti-woke appointment she brushed this off.

    However, she is unimpressed by James Cleverly which rather confirms something I posted yesterday.

    My take on this little anecdote? That some blue wall voters will, for now, be more sympathetic to the Conservative cause. Going forward I doubt that will endure. The disaster of Liz Truss, and its impact on the financial and housing markets isn’t something that will be easily forgotten. I suspect a generation is scarred.

    The real problem will come with the red wall Boris voters who are bound to see all this as a further example of Sunak ditching them.

    I could be wrong ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody asked on the last thread why nobody had a good word to say about Braverman while she was in office.

    I would take issue with this. I had many good words for her.

    I just didn't want to say them on here because OGH would have banned me.

    Interesting that Sunak had decided to replace her well before the article, having already set in train the Cameron recruitment.
    I agree. I suspect they had a bust up a while back. She then went more progressively out on a limb to embarrass him and he lined up a successor . Neither was shocked at the sacking.
    It does make him look marginally more decisive than he was being given credit for last week.

    It will be interesting to see how much of a role Cameron is given outside if his direct brief. I am guessing his appointment signals a deliberate change in the political complexion of Sunak's government.
    Cant see how much will change. Sunak has done little with his tenure as PM.

    Hunt will no doubt spring out and claim he has done all this hard work and followed Rishsi plan so we can have a bit of our own money back before an election. Bribing us with our own money as the saying goes. But it will be market day and he wont have done enough to fatten the pig.

    We will go in to an election with three parties trying to claim the same space and choice only available at the extremes.
    All three parties are hedged in by the same demographic and economic constraints as well as the dead albatross of Brexit, so not surprising that they look the same.

    There is no original political thought out there, nor coherent plan for the country.
    This dead albatross exists only in your head. The UK has not collapsed post Brexit. Brexits failure is not to have delivered more upside than if we had stayed in, you can debate all day as to why.
    The new passports really are nicer, tho

    I generously accept this is unlikely to mollify the 10m Remoaners driven mad by Brexit. And they have a point

    But the passports are better now - aesthetically. As promised
    You could have had the blue passport, as if that matters at all, without the economic slump, political instability, enervation of influence and vast cultural schism though. It was possible within the EU, see Croatia.
    No, we needed the moral spur of actual Brexit to give us the glowing self confidence to design our own passports. And deep dark lovely blue, they are
    I've got to say that "glowing self-confidence" doesn't appear to be overt characteristic of post-2016 UK.

    I hope Starmer switches them back to red. That'd be funny.
    Not gonna happen tho, is it? He’s too scared of the Brexit demons (and afraid people will remember his 2nd voteness). So it won’t be reversed just like Brexit won’t be reversed. Brexit is done. Cope
    Not sure you’ve got this one right, and with it the general tenure of Starmer’s Government.

    I’ve seen this before. I can just remember Mrs Thatcher and the way she grew in confidence and authority. It wasn’t like that at the beginning. She got in on a 44 seat majority which is amazing considering the shitshow she inherited including the Winter of Discontent.

    Her policies really only unfolded, like an emergent butterfly after two or three years, notably after the triumph (as the media saw it) of the Falklands conflict.

    I think it will be the same with Keir Starmer. Cautious now because he has to be. He has to win the trust of middle Britain, which was scared rigid by Corbyn, with good reason.

    I predict that after his general second General Election victory Keir Starmer will hold a referendum about closer ties with Europe. That may well even include a form of EU membership. The economic arguments, which were drowned out in 2016 by the political loons and lies, will be so compelling that this country will inevitably wish to rejoin. Plus, to be frank about it, the old boomers will be dying off so it becomes a whole load more likely.
    Leave win most voters over 47 not 77 in 2016.

    Starmer might align more to EU regulations but the idea he will risk holding a referendum on rejoining the full EU with potentially the Euro too is for the birds
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023
    Talking of denying the undenialable...from the bloke who brought up they are still carrying out the bodies from the hospital 24hrs later because there are so much damage and dead (after the Israeli airstrike on it)...

    "I have been to the hospital hundreds of time - I was born there, my son was born there, in the last two months of my mum's life, she was inside the kidney dialysis centre and I used to visit her every day. It is very hard to verify what is underneath. With my eyes, I haven't seen any military capability inside the hospital buildings."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67400490

    The Israelis literally have the hospital management organising with Hamas on tape talking about yeah you can use this part, no don't bring your weapons here, etc. And they showed video of another hospital yesterday with extensive tunnels / hidden rooms.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    That one needs a complaint to Uber and, I think, the relevant TFL Regulatory Office.

    They are (at last) doing some work on refusals to transport Guide Dogs (where there is a legal duty to accept). They may address this, too.
    Apparently “Jews don’t take Ubers” is an actual thing

    Awful
    Interesting to note that on the thread a lot of replies assume it is a Muslim Uber driver, which is not stated.
    I’m afraid that is my assumption. What are the chances? 90%?

    As far as I can recall, the only overt and serious anti-Semitism I have heard in many years has been from Muslims

    I’m sure it exists elsewhere too, on the far right etc, but - and this may surprise PB - I don’t generally hang out with Nick Griffin or Nazi skinheads
    The nasty example I share on here a week ago was a white British person (discovered via a doorcam across the street), actually someone who live on the same street, bizarrely.

    I certainly don't deny that antisemitism is probably more prevalent than average among Muslims in the UK - largely tied up with Israel-Palestine - but it is far, far from the rule. Other examples of casual antisemitism I've encountered over the last few weeks have been more likely to come from white people, though that is a reflection of my life and social circles as well.
  • Leon said:

    .

    Leon said:

    And what's in this for Cameron? Foreign Secretary for a year, then an opposition peer for a bit... I can't see a new Tory leader giving him a front-bench role post-GE24 (or GE25), and surely a role in Government post-GE29 (if the Tories win) is pretty unlikely.

    He can't be too content with whatever he's doing at the moment if he's happy to jack it all in for such a comparatively paltry return...

    Cameron wanted this in 2021.
    This very website discussed it when they heard he wanted to get back as Foreign Secretary (when Johnson was in charge).

    It wasn't a runner then. Johnson doesn't like Cameron and the feeling is mutual, plus the (then) obvious difficulty of making Cameron a Lord and then Foreign Secretary. But Sunak isn't Johnson and he's just ignored all that convention and done it.

    Cameron wanted back and he's got it.

    Will it help the Conservatives? Hell yes. I still see '120 seats to a majority', and 'Everyone hates the Labour party in Bootle.... except on GE day'.

    The Conservatives might not win this, but they could still force a hung parliament.

    As a final aside, I think a May 2024 election is now more likely. Sunak's getting his final team ready, and might go whilst they are still in honeymoon period next year.
    Cameron creates enemies: I’ve noticed this

    There’s a trust weird article in the world’s greatest magazine, the Spectator, where the writer - a friend of Sunak? - keeps overtly hinting he has some personal reason to loathe Cameron - but won’t reveal what it is

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-david-camerons-comeback/

    I count five references to this mysterious animus in that (not very long) piece. Maybe I woke up on the conspiracy theory side of the bed, but it reads to me awfully like “I have some dirt on Cameron and this is me publicly threatening him that unless he plays nice I’ll reveal it”.
    Yes, it’s quite striking, isn’t it. Also it sounds very personal. Like an adulterous affair or some dark betrayal (these are just speculations!)

    I agree it can be read as a threat
    Reads to me like something both personal and trivial like Cameron left the pub when it was his round, or didn't invite him to his wedding, or denied he was resigning and then resigned after the writer had written his headlines and placed his bet.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    That one needs a complaint to Uber and, I think, the relevant TFL Regulatory Office.

    They are (at last) doing some work on refusals to transport Guide Dogs (where there is a legal duty to accept). They may address this, too.
    Apparently “Jews don’t take Ubers” is an actual thing

    Awful
    Interesting to note that on the thread a lot of replies assume it is a Muslim Uber driver, which is not stated.
    I’m afraid that is my assumption. What are the chances? 90%?

    As far as I can recall, the only overt and serious anti-Semitism I have heard in many years has been from Muslims

    I’m sure it exists elsewhere too, on the far right etc, but - and this may surprise PB - I don’t generally hang out with Nick Griffin or Nazi skinheads
    So you missed all the Jews Will Not Replace Us stuff?
    Well yeah coz I don’t personally go to mad far right rallies. Not my thing. Nor do I hang out with corbynite loons

    I have misremembered tho. I have encountered anti
    Semitism from one non-Muslim in recent years. A very old Irish friend who watched Zeitgeist and became, yes, a Corbynite loon drenched in anti Semitism

    Thankfully he is now on the road to recovery

    All the other incidents of overt anti Semitism have been with/from Muslims. That’s an uncomfortable fact, but a fact nonetheless
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098

    HYUFD said:

    I think it may save them a couple of seats, if he gets some prominence. But that's all. It's a slight indication that the Conservatives may not shift more to the weirdo right.

    The fact the Labour attack dogs are going for him so strongly, shows they think he is a threat.

    Yes, that's about it, JJ. Maybe a dozen seats, I would say - partly because he is a figure of substance (as opposed to, say, Silly Suella) and partly because it indicates an edging away from the right towards the more defensible centre ground.

    Labour will take him seriously, but the outcome of the next GE looks as nailed on as ever. Tories to lose about 150 seats is what I am predicting now.
    I think the Cameron resurrection is a threat primarily to the Lib Dems, whose voters have fond memories of the sunny days in the Rose Garden and for whom Cameron in his hug a hoodie pomp represents the acceptable face of Toryism. Voters in the seats Labour is targeting remember the coalition years primarily for the austerity that Cameron and his Lib Dem useful idiots visited on their communities. They will despise Cameron either for calling the Brexit referendum, or for being a Remainer. Labour will be happy to have Cameron back, but the Lib Dems will be worried.
    Yes Cameron may save a seat or two in Surrey and Oxfordshire from the LDs, including his former constituency of Witney.

    I doubt he makes much difference to seats Labour are targeting however
    Thus far the general reaction here in the Witney constituency seems to be incredulity rather than “oh I’ll support the Conservatives again”.

    It doesn’t help that our incumbent (Robert Courts) is a lightweight party hack, and Cameron resurfacing just reminds people of that.

    The most likely path to the Conservatives retaining Witney is a split LD/Labour vote - the natural challenger isn’t so obvious here as elsewhere in Oxfordshire, though on balance after boundary changes I think the LDs probably have it.
    Cameron had a personal vote in Witney, I expect the Tories to hold it. It was also less strong Remain than neighbouring Henley and Wantage which are more likely to go LD
  • Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    Interesting stance from the Mail. I suspect, in the cold light of day, they've rightly concluded that there's no point nailing their colours to the mast of the third-rate Braverman, who will sink rapidly into affectionless obscurity. Elements of the British Right got into a tizzy over her sacking yesterday, but we'll put that down as one of their little moments.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends or the neo-Nazis, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    That one needs a complaint to Uber and, I think, the relevant TFL Regulatory Office.

    They are (at last) doing some work on refusals to transport Guide Dogs (where there is a legal duty to accept). They may address this, too.
    Apparently “Jews don’t take Ubers” is an actual thing

    Awful
    Interesting to note that on the thread a lot of replies assume it is a Muslim Uber driver, which is not stated.
    I’m afraid that is my assumption. What are the chances? 90%?

    As far as I can recall, the only overt and serious anti-Semitism I have heard in many years has been from Muslims

    I’m sure it exists elsewhere too, on the far right etc, but - and this may surprise PB - I don’t generally hang out with Nick Griffin or Nazi skinheads
    So you missed all the Jews Will Not Replace Us stuff?
    Well yeah coz I don’t personally go to mad far right rallies. Not my thing. Nor do I hang out with corbynite loons

    I have misremembered tho. I have encountered anti
    Semitism from one non-Muslim in recent years. A very old Irish friend who watched Zeitgeist and became, yes, a Corbynite loon drenched in anti Semitism

    Thankfully he is now on the road to recovery

    All the other incidents of overt anti Semitism have been with/from Muslims. That’s an uncomfortable fact, but a fact nonetheless
    Chris Williamson is a Muslim ?
  • Leon said:

    We have imported huge amounts of anti-Semitism. When will we admit this was a dreadful mistake?

    What’s so troubling about that Uber anecdote is that underneath it half the people are saying “yeah this happened to me, too” - showing that it is widespread - and the other half are saying “yeah that didn’t happen, you made it up”. Total denial
    of the problem

    Tbh I've never had a conversation with a black cab driver, and only occasionally with a minicab or Uber driver. My complaint would be having to listen to their choice of radio station or half a phone call. Do journalists make a point of eliciting cabbies' views in order to pad out their columns?
  • Heathener said:

    Morning @Big_G_NorthWales I’m back in Surrey staying with my tory friend.

    She’s cock-a-hoop about DC’s return, but then she hasn’t yet read the Suzanne Heywood book that I have lent her. Her views on Cameron will assuredly change when she has.

    The general sense of a return to the middle has made her visibly glowing. She is elated at the demise of Braverman, who was one of the main reasons why she could not bring herself to vote Conservative. When I pointed out about Esther McVey’s anti-woke appointment she brushed this off.

    However, she is unimpressed by James Cleverly which rather confirms something I posted yesterday.

    My take on this little anecdote? That some blue wall voters will, for now, be more sympathetic to the Conservative cause. Going forward I doubt that will endure. The disaster of Liz Truss, and its impact on the financial and housing markets isn’t something that will be easily forgotten. I suspect a generation is scarred.

    The real problem will come with the red wall Boris voters who are bound to see all this as a further example of Sunak ditching them.

    I could be wrong ;)

    Good morning @Heathener

    To me the importance of yesterday is Sunak's clear move to the centre and rejection of the shocking Braverman and her views

    I expect some backlash from the right but it will not go anywhere and many will lose their seats in GE24

    It gives those of us who are one nation conservatives hope that post GE24, and in opposition, the party will be able to resist the clamour of the ERG and the right and return to a sane and responsible opposition and eventually a government in waiting

    I would also suggest that Starmer will have so much on his plate that he is extremely unlikely to reopen the debate on our membership with the EU or even suggest yet another divisive referendum
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,689
    Heathener said:

    I predict that after his general second General Election victory Keir Starmer will hold a referendum about closer ties with Europe. That may well even include a form of EU membership. The economic arguments, which were drowned out in 2016 by the political loons and lies, will be so compelling that this country will inevitably wish to rejoin. Plus, to be frank about it, the old boomers will be dying off so it becomes a whole load more likely.

    I think you may be overlooking a couple of important political trends: the left is increasingly hostile to any form of Western particularism, and continental Europe is drifting towards the right.

    If you're right about Starmer, he will have to do it by changing the Labour party far more than Blair did.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    That one needs a complaint to Uber and, I think, the relevant TFL Regulatory Office.

    They are (at last) doing some work on refusals to transport Guide Dogs (where there is a legal duty to accept). They may address this, too.
    Apparently “Jews don’t take Ubers” is an actual thing

    Awful
    Interesting to note that on the thread a lot of replies assume it is a Muslim Uber driver, which is not stated.
    I’m afraid that is my assumption. What are the chances? 90%?

    As far as I can recall, the only overt and serious anti-Semitism I have heard in many years has been from Muslims

    I’m sure it exists elsewhere too, on the far right etc, but - and this may surprise PB - I don’t generally hang out with Nick Griffin or Nazi skinheads
    So you missed all the Jews Will Not Replace Us stuff?
    Well yeah coz I don’t personally go to mad far right rallies. Not my thing. Nor do I hang out with corbynite loons

    I have misremembered tho. I have encountered anti
    Semitism from one non-Muslim in recent years. A very old Irish friend who watched Zeitgeist and became, yes, a Corbynite loon drenched in anti Semitism

    Thankfully he is now on the road to recovery

    All the other incidents of overt anti Semitism have been with/from Muslims. That’s an uncomfortable fact, but a fact nonetheless
    Chris Williamson is a Muslim ?
    Thankfully I’ve never met him. What a wanker

    I’m not denying that anti-Semitism exists in many parts of society, but it is also futile denying that it is particularly prevalent in Muslim communities, and for various reasons they seem happier to express it in person - often quite vehemently

    That is my experience. Now, my experience will be skewed by my own life. Eg I probably get more taxis than most people (esp since selling my car) and I travel much more widely than most
    people - Inc the Middle East/dar al Islam (I’m right now on a plane to a Muslim country)

    So my account will be different to others. But I’m not lying

  • Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    I can confirm that when you hear that chant coming from 300,000 people - and some of them absolutely scream it - the impression is definitely intimidating. Even for a goy
  • NCSC says cyber-readiness of UK’s critical infrastructure isn’t up to scratch

    The UK's National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC) has once again sounded its concern over the rising threat level to the nation's critical national infrastructure (CNI).

    https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/14/ncsc_cyber_readiness/

    The NCSC report itself, hot off the press, can be found at
    https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/collection/annual-review-2023

    There is a whole section on Russia. Beefing up our cyberdefences is something the government can usefully do rather than pontificate about Gaza where the belligerents will barely notice.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Yes the same "be kind" crowd who are pearl clutching people when somebody says something rude, particularly if it is directed towards a minority, see that wanker Fox not wanting to shag a journalist or whatever attention seeking nonsense over trans issues, see no issue with this slogan, which goes beyond rude or offensive, it is a frightening phrase which is a call to action against a minority.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    geoffw said:

    Cameron was good at the dispatch box in PMQs, as he indeed thought beforehand that he could be. As Foreign Minister he won't have much impact on the electorate. But his earlier forays into foreign affairs don't augur well. We'll see soon enough whether his disdain for Boris Johnson leads him to downplay Ukraine where Boris is a hero.

    Perhaps the best thing both men could do, is bury their hatchet for long enough to visit Ukraine together.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,107
    Leon said:

    And what's in this for Cameron? Foreign Secretary for a year, then an opposition peer for a bit... I can't see a new Tory leader giving him a front-bench role post-GE24 (or GE25), and surely a role in Government post-GE29 (if the Tories win) is pretty unlikely.

    He can't be too content with whatever he's doing at the moment if he's happy to jack it all in for such a comparatively paltry return...

    Cameron wanted this in 2021.
    This very website discussed it when they heard he wanted to get back as Foreign Secretary (when Johnson was in charge).

    It wasn't a runner then. Johnson doesn't like Cameron and the feeling is mutual, plus the (then) obvious difficulty of making Cameron a Lord and then Foreign Secretary. But Sunak isn't Johnson and he's just ignored all that convention and done it.

    Cameron wanted back and he's got it.

    Will it help the Conservatives? Hell yes. I still see '120 seats to a majority', and 'Everyone hates the Labour party in Bootle.... except on GE day'.

    The Conservatives might not win this, but they could still force a hung parliament.

    As a final aside, I think a May 2024 election is now more likely. Sunak's getting his final team ready, and might go whilst they are still in honeymoon period next year.
    Cameron creates enemies: I’ve noticed this

    There’s a trust weird article in the world’s greatest magazine, the Spectator, where the writer - a friend of Sunak? - keeps overtly hinting he has some personal reason to loathe Cameron - but won’t reveal what it is

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-david-camerons-comeback/

    non-paywall link: https://archive.is/AlsDS
  • Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023

    NCSC says cyber-readiness of UK’s critical infrastructure isn’t up to scratch

    The UK's National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC) has once again sounded its concern over the rising threat level to the nation's critical national infrastructure (CNI).

    https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/14/ncsc_cyber_readiness/

    The NCSC report itself, hot off the press, can be found at
    https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/collection/annual-review-2023

    There is a whole section on Russia. Beefing up our cyberdefences is something the government can usefully do rather than pontificate about Gaza where the belligerents will barely notice.

    I always think the Chinese in particular must have a right old laugh about how lacking we are in the West over this stuff.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,107

    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Non-paywall link: https://archive.li/w1OpP
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    On Topic: As with many late night shenanigans this Cameron stunt of Sunak’s looks different in the cold light of the morning after. This one has unravelled particularly quickly for me. It’s another pasty tax but worse. Ok, it grabbed the headlines (good), pissed off the loony right (good), might end up saving a few seats here and there in the blue wall (good), but when you stop and really think about what he’s gone and done here, drafted in the last PM but three to be his actual Foreign Secretary, it’s ludicrous!

    Terrific for Dave of course, he’s back feeling buzzy and important, big cheeses will be taking his calls again, but what does it say about the state of the Conservative Party? It says they are utterly bereft of ideas, talent and direction. The well is dry. We knew that anyway but this scrawls it in magic marker on a placard and hangs it round their neck for all to see, just in case anybody was in any doubt.

    And Rishi. What does it say about him? Again, all negative. A heartbeat ago at the party conference he was defining himself as the ‘change’ we needed after decades of failed government. Now he turns for succour to the bloke who was in power longer than any other for the most recent of those decades. So it was all bollox then. His leader speech at his party conference was all bollox. Truly risible. He seems to have given up entirely on defining himself and the government he (supposedly?) leads.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,873
    viewcode said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Non-paywall link: https://archive.li/w1OpP
    Oh dear. Maybe not drunk so much as sending the previous draft in error. All the same, not a good look.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023
    kinabalu said:

    On Topic: As with many late night shenanigans this Cameron stunt of Sunak’s looks different in the cold light of the morning after. This one has unravelled particularly quickly for me. It’s another pasty tax but worse. Ok, it grabbed the headlines (good), pissed off the loony right (good), might end up saving a few seats here and there in the blue wall (good), but when you stop and really think about what he’s gone and done here, drafted in the last PM but three to be his actual Foreign Secretary, it’s ludicrous!

    Terrific for Dave of course, he’s back feeling buzzy and important, big cheeses will be taking his calls again, but what does it say about the state of the Conservative Party? It says they are utterly bereft of ideas, talent and direction. The well is dry. We knew that anyway but this scrawls it in magic marker on a placard and hangs it round their neck for all to see, just in case anybody was in any doubt.

    And Rishi. What does it say about him? Again, all negative. A heartbeat ago at the party conference he was defining himself as the ‘change’ we needed after decades of failed government. Now he turns for succour to the bloke who was in power longer than any other for the most recent of those decades. So it was all bollox then. His leader speech at his party conference was all bollox. Truly risible. He seems to have given up entirely on defining himself and the government he (supposedly?) leads.

    It reminds me when Gordon Brown brought back Mandelson to be business secretary (and really pull the strings). He might be a polished performer, a canny political operator, but its says a) we ain't got any talent and b) comes with massive baggage.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    kinabalu said:

    On Topic: As with many late night shenanigans this Cameron stunt of Sunak’s looks different in the cold light of the morning after. This one has unravelled particularly quickly for me. It’s another pasty tax but worse. Ok, it grabbed the headlines (good), pissed off the loony right (good), might end up saving a few seats here and there in the blue wall (good), but when you stop and really think about what he’s gone and done here, drafted in the last PM but three to be his actual Foreign Secretary, it’s ludicrous!

    Terrific for Dave of course, he’s back feeling buzzy and important, big cheeses will be taking his calls again, but what does it say about the state of the Conservative Party? It says they are utterly bereft of ideas, talent and direction. The well is dry. We knew that anyway but this scrawls it in magic marker on a placard and hangs it round their neck for all to see, just in case anybody was in any doubt.

    And Rishi. What does it say about him? Again, all negative. A heartbeat ago at the party conference he was defining himself as the ‘change’ we needed after decades of failed government. Now he turns for succour to the bloke who was in power longer than any other for the most recent of those decades. So it was all bollox then. His leader speech at his party conference was all bollox. Truly risible. He seems to have given up entirely on defining himself and the government he (supposedly?) leads.

    A rare moment of concord. I agree this is a serious error - worse, an unforced error

    And for me it unravelled after about an hour, yesterday, when I thought through all the problems Cameron brings

    Savanta polling shows that Cameron is viewed less favourably than almost any other recent Tory leader (less favourably than Boris, for example). And the idea he will win over Remainers is ridic. Lots of Remainers HATE him because he’s the dude that enabled Brexit then strolled away to spend more time with his money
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    I am happy that Dave is back in the party. And that Rees Mogg is up in arms.

    Means I might not even have to hold my nose next time round.

    I will not be alone.
  • Leon said:

    .

    Leon said:

    And what's in this for Cameron? Foreign Secretary for a year, then an opposition peer for a bit... I can't see a new Tory leader giving him a front-bench role post-GE24 (or GE25), and surely a role in Government post-GE29 (if the Tories win) is pretty unlikely.

    He can't be too content with whatever he's doing at the moment if he's happy to jack it all in for such a comparatively paltry return...

    Cameron wanted this in 2021.
    This very website discussed it when they heard he wanted to get back as Foreign Secretary (when Johnson was in charge).

    It wasn't a runner then. Johnson doesn't like Cameron and the feeling is mutual, plus the (then) obvious difficulty of making Cameron a Lord and then Foreign Secretary. But Sunak isn't Johnson and he's just ignored all that convention and done it.

    Cameron wanted back and he's got it.

    Will it help the Conservatives? Hell yes. I still see '120 seats to a majority', and 'Everyone hates the Labour party in Bootle.... except on GE day'.

    The Conservatives might not win this, but they could still force a hung parliament.

    As a final aside, I think a May 2024 election is now more likely. Sunak's getting his final team ready, and might go whilst they are still in honeymoon period next year.
    Cameron creates enemies: I’ve noticed this

    There’s a trust weird article in the world’s greatest magazine, the Spectator, where the writer - a friend of Sunak? - keeps overtly hinting he has some personal reason to loathe Cameron - but won’t reveal what it is

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-david-camerons-comeback/

    I count five references to this mysterious animus in that (not very long) piece. Maybe I woke up on the conspiracy theory side of the bed, but it reads to me awfully like “I have some dirt on Cameron and this is me publicly threatening him that unless he plays nice I’ll reveal it”.
    Yes, it’s quite striking, isn’t it. Also it sounds very personal. Like an adulterous affair or some dark betrayal (these are just speculations!)

    I agree it can be read as a threat
    Reads to me like something both personal and trivial like Cameron left the pub when it was his round, or didn't invite him to his wedding, or denied he was resigning and then resigned after the writer had written his headlines and placed his bet.
    Yes, all sounds rather vainglorious from the author. I doubt it's much of a scandal in anyone's eyes but his. I say this not because Dave is a wonderful man incapable of inflicting harm, but it just seems unlikely that someone of Dave's standing would have a lowly Spectator hack in his orbit for long enough to make much difference.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    edited November 2023

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial. It either didn't happen despite Hamas go-pros / live stream, or was just a small proportion of those involved in the mission who were over-excited freedom fighters who got carried away attacking civilians, the majority were combatants, or yeah but I saw a fake photo on twitter, so show me the proof of babies being beheaded, or well yeah 1 was beheaded but not 40, or well there was the odd rape and baby baking, but it was mostly peaceful.

    Yes the far-left have gone full 9/11 Truther on the October 7th massacre, that essentially everyone killed was "friendly fire" by the IDF.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    On Topic: As with many late night shenanigans this Cameron stunt of Sunak’s looks different in the cold light of the morning after. This one has unravelled particularly quickly for me. It’s another pasty tax but worse. Ok, it grabbed the headlines (good), pissed off the loony right (good), might end up saving a few seats here and there in the blue wall (good), but when you stop and really think about what he’s gone and done here, drafted in the last PM but three to be his actual Foreign Secretary, it’s ludicrous!

    Terrific for Dave of course, he’s back feeling buzzy and important, big cheeses will be taking his calls again, but what does it say about the state of the Conservative Party? It says they are utterly bereft of ideas, talent and direction. The well is dry. We knew that anyway but this scrawls it in magic marker on a placard and hangs it round their neck for all to see, just in case anybody was in any doubt.

    And Rishi. What does it say about him? Again, all negative. A heartbeat ago at the party conference he was defining himself as the ‘change’ we needed after decades of failed government. Now he turns for succour to the bloke who was in power longer than any other for the most recent of those decades. So it was all bollox then. His leader speech at his party conference was all bollox. Truly risible. He seems to have given up entirely on defining himself and the government he (supposedly?) leads.

    A rare moment of concord. I agree this is a serious error - worse, an unforced error

    And for me it unravelled after about an hour, yesterday, when I thought through all the problems Cameron brings

    Savanta polling shows that Cameron is viewed less favourably than almost any other recent Tory leader (less favourably than Boris, for example). And the idea he will win over Remainers is ridic. Lots of Remainers HATE him because he’s the dude that enabled Brexit then strolled away to spend more time with his money
    No we don't. We like him. Not our fault if the dumbos hitched their wagon to Nigel.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    .

    Leon said:

    And what's in this for Cameron? Foreign Secretary for a year, then an opposition peer for a bit... I can't see a new Tory leader giving him a front-bench role post-GE24 (or GE25), and surely a role in Government post-GE29 (if the Tories win) is pretty unlikely.

    He can't be too content with whatever he's doing at the moment if he's happy to jack it all in for such a comparatively paltry return...

    Cameron wanted this in 2021.
    This very website discussed it when they heard he wanted to get back as Foreign Secretary (when Johnson was in charge).

    It wasn't a runner then. Johnson doesn't like Cameron and the feeling is mutual, plus the (then) obvious difficulty of making Cameron a Lord and then Foreign Secretary. But Sunak isn't Johnson and he's just ignored all that convention and done it.

    Cameron wanted back and he's got it.

    Will it help the Conservatives? Hell yes. I still see '120 seats to a majority', and 'Everyone hates the Labour party in Bootle.... except on GE day'.

    The Conservatives might not win this, but they could still force a hung parliament.

    As a final aside, I think a May 2024 election is now more likely. Sunak's getting his final team ready, and might go whilst they are still in honeymoon period next year.
    Cameron creates enemies: I’ve noticed this

    There’s a trust weird article in the world’s greatest magazine, the Spectator, where the writer - a friend of Sunak? - keeps overtly hinting he has some personal reason to loathe Cameron - but won’t reveal what it is

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-david-camerons-comeback/

    I count five references to this mysterious animus in that (not very long) piece. Maybe I woke up on the conspiracy theory side of the bed, but it reads to me awfully like “I have some dirt on Cameron and this is me publicly threatening him that unless he plays nice I’ll reveal it”.
    Yes, it’s quite striking, isn’t it. Also it sounds very personal. Like an adulterous affair or some dark betrayal (these are just speculations!)

    I agree it can be read as a threat
    Reads to me like something both personal and trivial like Cameron left the pub when it was his round, or didn't invite him to his wedding, or denied he was resigning and then resigned after the writer had written his headlines and placed his bet.
    Yes, all sounds rather vainglorious from the author. I doubt it's much of a scandal in anyone's eyes but his. I say this not because Dave is a wonderful man incapable of inflicting harm, but it just seems unlikely that someone of Dave's standing would have a lowly Spectator hack in his orbit for long enough to make much difference.
    You don’t get out much. The Spectator crew is intimately bound up with the Tory leadership in multiple ways - eg Sunak’s best man was James Forsyth. Ex spectator. Boris was the editor. Dominic Cummings is married to Mary Wakefield - spectator editor. Etc etc
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856

    NCSC says cyber-readiness of UK’s critical infrastructure isn’t up to scratch

    The UK's National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC) has once again sounded its concern over the rising threat level to the nation's critical national infrastructure (CNI).

    https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/14/ncsc_cyber_readiness/

    The NCSC report itself, hot off the press, can be found at
    https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/collection/annual-review-2023

    There is a whole section on Russia. Beefing up our cyberdefences is something the government can usefully do rather than pontificate about Gaza where the belligerents will barely notice.

    We need to start thinking how we protect critical infrastructure from drones. There will be no easy answers.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    On Topic: As with many late night shenanigans this Cameron stunt of Sunak’s looks different in the cold light of the morning after. This one has unravelled particularly quickly for me. It’s another pasty tax but worse. Ok, it grabbed the headlines (good), pissed off the loony right (good), might end up saving a few seats here and there in the blue wall (good), but when you stop and really think about what he’s gone and done here, drafted in the last PM but three to be his actual Foreign Secretary, it’s ludicrous!

    Terrific for Dave of course, he’s back feeling buzzy and important, big cheeses will be taking his calls again, but what does it say about the state of the Conservative Party? It says they are utterly bereft of ideas, talent and direction. The well is dry. We knew that anyway but this scrawls it in magic marker on a placard and hangs it round their neck for all to see, just in case anybody was in any doubt.

    And Rishi. What does it say about him? Again, all negative. A heartbeat ago at the party conference he was defining himself as the ‘change’ we needed after decades of failed government. Now he turns for succour to the bloke who was in power longer than any other for the most recent of those decades. So it was all bollox then. His leader speech at his party conference was all bollox. Truly risible. He seems to have given up entirely on defining himself and the government he (supposedly?) leads.

    A rare moment of concord. I agree this is a serious error - worse, an unforced error

    And for me it unravelled after about an hour, yesterday, when I thought through all the problems Cameron brings

    Savanta polling shows that Cameron is viewed less favourably than almost any other recent Tory leader (less favourably than Boris, for example). And the idea he will win over Remainers is ridic. Lots of Remainers HATE him because he’s the dude that enabled Brexit then strolled away to spend more time with his money
    No we don't. We like him. Not our fault if the dumbos hitched their wagon to Nigel.
    YOU like him. Let’s watch the polls. I’ll wager I’m right
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,672
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    On Topic: As with many late night shenanigans this Cameron stunt of Sunak’s looks different in the cold light of the morning after. This one has unravelled particularly quickly for me. It’s another pasty tax but worse. Ok, it grabbed the headlines (good), pissed off the loony right (good), might end up saving a few seats here and there in the blue wall (good), but when you stop and really think about what he’s gone and done here, drafted in the last PM but three to be his actual Foreign Secretary, it’s ludicrous!

    Terrific for Dave of course, he’s back feeling buzzy and important, big cheeses will be taking his calls again, but what does it say about the state of the Conservative Party? It says they are utterly bereft of ideas, talent and direction. The well is dry. We knew that anyway but this scrawls it in magic marker on a placard and hangs it round their neck for all to see, just in case anybody was in any doubt.

    And Rishi. What does it say about him? Again, all negative. A heartbeat ago at the party conference he was defining himself as the ‘change’ we needed after decades of failed government. Now he turns for succour to the bloke who was in power longer than any other for the most recent of those decades. So it was all bollox then. His leader speech at his party conference was all bollox. Truly risible. He seems to have given up entirely on defining himself and the government he (supposedly?) leads.

    A rare moment of concord. I agree this is a serious error - worse, an unforced error

    And for me it unravelled after about an hour, yesterday, when I thought through all the problems Cameron brings

    Savanta polling shows that Cameron is viewed less favourably than almost any other recent Tory leader (less favourably than Boris, for example). And the idea he will win over Remainers is ridic. Lots of Remainers HATE him because he’s the dude that enabled Brexit then strolled away to spend more time with his money
    No we don't. We like him. Not our fault if the dumbos hitched their wagon to Nigel.
    It amuses me that some people breathlessly talk about Farage joining the Conservatives - and even feverisly masturbate as they think of him becoming LEADER - yet also condemn Cameron.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Leon said:

    .

    Leon said:

    And what's in this for Cameron? Foreign Secretary for a year, then an opposition peer for a bit... I can't see a new Tory leader giving him a front-bench role post-GE24 (or GE25), and surely a role in Government post-GE29 (if the Tories win) is pretty unlikely.

    He can't be too content with whatever he's doing at the moment if he's happy to jack it all in for such a comparatively paltry return...

    Cameron wanted this in 2021.
    This very website discussed it when they heard he wanted to get back as Foreign Secretary (when Johnson was in charge).

    It wasn't a runner then. Johnson doesn't like Cameron and the feeling is mutual, plus the (then) obvious difficulty of making Cameron a Lord and then Foreign Secretary. But Sunak isn't Johnson and he's just ignored all that convention and done it.

    Cameron wanted back and he's got it.

    Will it help the Conservatives? Hell yes. I still see '120 seats to a majority', and 'Everyone hates the Labour party in Bootle.... except on GE day'.

    The Conservatives might not win this, but they could still force a hung parliament.

    As a final aside, I think a May 2024 election is now more likely. Sunak's getting his final team ready, and might go whilst they are still in honeymoon period next year.
    Cameron creates enemies: I’ve noticed this

    There’s a trust weird article in the world’s greatest magazine, the Spectator, where the writer - a friend of Sunak? - keeps overtly hinting he has some personal reason to loathe Cameron - but won’t reveal what it is

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-david-camerons-comeback/

    I count five references to this mysterious animus in that (not very long) piece. Maybe I woke up on the conspiracy theory side of the bed, but it reads to me awfully like “I have some dirt on Cameron and this is me publicly threatening him that unless he plays nice I’ll reveal it”.
    Yes, it’s quite striking, isn’t it. Also it sounds very personal. Like an adulterous affair or some dark betrayal (these are just speculations!)

    I agree it can be read as a threat
    Reads to me like something both personal and trivial like Cameron left the pub when it was his round, or didn't invite him to his wedding, or denied he was resigning and then resigned after the writer had written his headlines and placed his bet.
    Yes, all sounds rather vainglorious from the author. I doubt it's much of a scandal in anyone's eyes but his. I say this not because Dave is a wonderful man incapable of inflicting harm, but it just seems unlikely that someone of Dave's standing would have a lowly Spectator hack in his orbit for long enough to make much difference.
    Annoying when journos do this. A bit look-at-me-I'm-special, like those people who post cryptic pity-me Facebook updates for attention.

    Either say it or don't.
  • Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Non-paywall link: https://archive.li/w1OpP
    Oh dear. Maybe not drunk so much as sending the previous draft in error. All the same, not a good look.
    Drunk or sober Jenkyns may of course be semi literate, so I suppose one shouldn't laugh at the disadvantaged. Let's instead applaud the Tory party for giving her a chance to shine.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,672
    TOPPING said:

    I am happy that Dave is back in the party. And that Rees Mogg is up in arms.

    Means I might not even have to hold my nose next time round.

    I will not be alone.

    I sometimes wonder about JRM. Is he actually self-aware enough to realise how he comes across, yet he does it anyway (in some ways admirable); or does he totally lack self-awareness? It has to be one or the other.

    Or is it all an act, and at home he kicks around in a North Face jacket and tracksuit bottoms whilst drinking lager?
  • Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Here is some advice to all MPs, freemans, use Grammarly or similar AI-infused proofreading and writing tools. It's not hard, it's not expensive and you can claim it back on expenses anyway.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983
    edited November 2023
    Re the anti semitism and from the river to the sea stuff.

    People should always remind themselves that the world or the vocal, social media world is now a binary one and revolves around the powerful and the powerless.

    There is no inbetween. You are with one or the other. Hence Queers for Palestine.

    Seen through this lens the whole thing is intelligible.

    And perhaps less sinister.

    The Hampstead intellectual, whose neighbour is likely Jewish, chanting from the river to the sea is unlikely for one moment to put the two together. Still less likely wishes any harm on his neighbour.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    .

    Leon said:

    And what's in this for Cameron? Foreign Secretary for a year, then an opposition peer for a bit... I can't see a new Tory leader giving him a front-bench role post-GE24 (or GE25), and surely a role in Government post-GE29 (if the Tories win) is pretty unlikely.

    He can't be too content with whatever he's doing at the moment if he's happy to jack it all in for such a comparatively paltry return...

    Cameron wanted this in 2021.
    This very website discussed it when they heard he wanted to get back as Foreign Secretary (when Johnson was in charge).

    It wasn't a runner then. Johnson doesn't like Cameron and the feeling is mutual, plus the (then) obvious difficulty of making Cameron a Lord and then Foreign Secretary. But Sunak isn't Johnson and he's just ignored all that convention and done it.

    Cameron wanted back and he's got it.

    Will it help the Conservatives? Hell yes. I still see '120 seats to a majority', and 'Everyone hates the Labour party in Bootle.... except on GE day'.

    The Conservatives might not win this, but they could still force a hung parliament.

    As a final aside, I think a May 2024 election is now more likely. Sunak's getting his final team ready, and might go whilst they are still in honeymoon period next year.
    Cameron creates enemies: I’ve noticed this

    There’s a trust weird article in the world’s greatest magazine, the Spectator, where the writer - a friend of Sunak? - keeps overtly hinting he has some personal reason to loathe Cameron - but won’t reveal what it is

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-david-camerons-comeback/

    I count five references to this mysterious animus in that (not very long) piece. Maybe I woke up on the conspiracy theory side of the bed, but it reads to me awfully like “I have some dirt on Cameron and this is me publicly threatening him that unless he plays nice I’ll reveal it”.
    Yes, it’s quite striking, isn’t it. Also it sounds very personal. Like an adulterous affair or some dark betrayal (these are just speculations!)

    I agree it can be read as a threat
    Reads to me like something both personal and trivial like Cameron left the pub when it was his round, or didn't invite him to his wedding, or denied he was resigning and then resigned after the writer had written his headlines and placed his bet.
    Yes, all sounds rather vainglorious from the author. I doubt it's much of a scandal in anyone's eyes but his. I say this not because Dave is a wonderful man incapable of inflicting harm, but it just seems unlikely that someone of Dave's standing would have a lowly Spectator hack in his orbit for long enough to make much difference.
    You don’t get out much. The Spectator crew is intimately bound up with the Tory leadership in multiple ways - eg Sunak’s best man was James Forsyth. Ex spectator. Boris was the editor. Dominic Cummings is married to Mary Wakefield - spectator editor. Etc etc
    All a bit yesterday's men-ny. Even Sunak is yesterday's dead man walking.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,672

    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Here is some advice to all MPs, freemans, use Grammarly or similar AI-infused proofreading and writing tools. It's not hard, it's not expensive and you can claim it back on expenses anyway.
    I'd never use a tool like that for anything that might be confidential.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    Yes. One thought about the 'Common Sense Tsar'.

    To say something is common sense (unless you are an idiot) is to say that something is a generally shared feeling, to the extent that it is more or less universal within a particular society.

    Examples might be 'It is good that children learn to read and write' or 'Moderate exercise is good for you'. 'Fresh fruit is better than brandy for small children'.

    Such things are by definition not the stuff of politics. Politics is exactly the management of contested issues, including the allocation of finite resources. To bring 'common sense' to contested issues is of course to pre-determine their outcome. That is not an exercise of common sense, but the politics of power and group think.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023
    TOPPING said:

    Re the anti semitism and from the river to the sea stuff.

    People should always remind themselves that the world or the vocal, social media world is now a binary one and revolves around the powerful and the powerless.

    There is no inbetween. You are with one or the other. Hence Queers for Palestine.

    Seen through this lens the whole thing is intelligible.

    And perhaps less sinister.

    The Hampstead intellectual, whose neighbour is likely Jewish, chanting from the river to the sea is unlikely for one moment to put the two together. Still less likely wishes any harm on his neighbour.

    But these are the same people who will have been saying well yes the name of the boozer being the black boy is potentially offensive as slavery 100s of years ago, so we should rename it.....we need to be extremely sensitive to such things. Where as screaming a terrorist slogan to kill all the Jews, you know, its just a good rhyming ditty. And if anybody else walked through London screaming for say the removal of all (insert another minority) from UK, to set us all free, quite rightly would be in the nick in 2 seconds.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983

    TOPPING said:

    I am happy that Dave is back in the party. And that Rees Mogg is up in arms.

    Means I might not even have to hold my nose next time round.

    I will not be alone.

    I sometimes wonder about JRM. Is he actually self-aware enough to realise how he comes across, yet he does it anyway (in some ways admirable); or does he totally lack self-awareness? It has to be one or the other.

    Or is it all an act, and at home he kicks around in a North Face jacket and tracksuit bottoms whilst drinking lager?
    No. He does not kick around at home in trackie bottoms.

    Whether if you dig deep enough he "enjoys" this persona or might like to have been a beat poet hanging out at The French House is a ship that has long since sailed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,983

    TOPPING said:

    Re the anti semitism and from the river to the sea stuff.

    People should always remind themselves that the world or the vocal, social media world is now a binary one and revolves around the powerful and the powerless.

    There is no inbetween. You are with one or the other. Hence Queers for Palestine.

    Seen through this lens the whole thing is intelligible.

    And perhaps less sinister.

    The Hampstead intellectual, whose neighbour is likely Jewish, chanting from the river to the sea is unlikely for one moment to put the two together. Still less likely wishes any harm on his neighbour.

    But these are the same people who will have been saying well yes the name of the boozer being the black boy is potentially offensive as slavery 100s of years ago, so we should rename it.....we need to be extremely sensitive to such things. Where as screaming a terrorist slogan to kill all the Jews, you know, its just good ditty.
    Oh yes but you are deconstructing this. He is on the side of the powerless. In his mind black boys are powerless and Jews are powerful. That's all that is needed to understand the dynamic.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am happy that Dave is back in the party. And that Rees Mogg is up in arms.

    Means I might not even have to hold my nose next time round.

    I will not be alone.

    I sometimes wonder about JRM. Is he actually self-aware enough to realise how he comes across, yet he does it anyway (in some ways admirable); or does he totally lack self-awareness? It has to be one or the other.

    Or is it all an act, and at home he kicks around in a North Face jacket and tracksuit bottoms whilst drinking lager?
    No. He does not kick around at home in trackie bottoms.

    Whether if you dig deep enough he "enjoys" this persona or might like to have been a beat poet hanging out at The French House is a ship that has long since sailed.
    He's box office. He will be on Question Time this week I'm told. When the audience were told last week, they booed! He's a pantomime villain for sure but probably an affable enough sort IRL.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Very interesting developments reported by Joshua Rozenberg today regarding the ECHR and interim measures . These can only now be used where “ there is an “ imminent risk of irreparable harm “.

    Could be classed as a lobbying win for the UK government .
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,598
    nico679 said:

    Very interesting developments reported by Joshua Rozenberg today regarding the ECHR and interim measures . These can only now be used where “ there is an “ imminent risk of irreparable harm “.

    Could be classed as a lobbying win for the UK government .

    These are the quasi-injunctions, right? Apparently some countries already ignore them. Perhaps the ECHR are trying to prevent more countries ignoring them by reducing their use.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    carnforth said:

    nico679 said:

    Very interesting developments reported by Joshua Rozenberg today regarding the ECHR and interim measures . These can only now be used where “ there is an “ imminent risk of irreparable harm “.

    Could be classed as a lobbying win for the UK government .

    These are the quasi-injunctions, right? Apparently some countries already ignore them. Perhaps the ECHR are trying to prevent more countries ignoring them by reducing their use.
    They are normally seen as binding . But this change means you need a higher threshold and I think will be welcomed not just by the UK government but across other European governments.

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,598
    nico679 said:

    carnforth said:

    nico679 said:

    Very interesting developments reported by Joshua Rozenberg today regarding the ECHR and interim measures . These can only now be used where “ there is an “ imminent risk of irreparable harm “.

    Could be classed as a lobbying win for the UK government .

    These are the quasi-injunctions, right? Apparently some countries already ignore them. Perhaps the ECHR are trying to prevent more countries ignoring them by reducing their use.
    They are normally seen as binding . But this change means you need a higher threshold and I think will be welcomed not just by the UK government but across other European governments.

    As I understand it, they were invented by the court itself, and were not envisaged by the original treaty establishing it. One wonders what else they would allow themselves to invent.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    .

    Leon said:

    And what's in this for Cameron? Foreign Secretary for a year, then an opposition peer for a bit... I can't see a new Tory leader giving him a front-bench role post-GE24 (or GE25), and surely a role in Government post-GE29 (if the Tories win) is pretty unlikely.

    He can't be too content with whatever he's doing at the moment if he's happy to jack it all in for such a comparatively paltry return...

    Cameron wanted this in 2021.
    This very website discussed it when they heard he wanted to get back as Foreign Secretary (when Johnson was in charge).

    It wasn't a runner then. Johnson doesn't like Cameron and the feeling is mutual, plus the (then) obvious difficulty of making Cameron a Lord and then Foreign Secretary. But Sunak isn't Johnson and he's just ignored all that convention and done it.

    Cameron wanted back and he's got it.

    Will it help the Conservatives? Hell yes. I still see '120 seats to a majority', and 'Everyone hates the Labour party in Bootle.... except on GE day'.

    The Conservatives might not win this, but they could still force a hung parliament.

    As a final aside, I think a May 2024 election is now more likely. Sunak's getting his final team ready, and might go whilst they are still in honeymoon period next year.
    Cameron creates enemies: I’ve noticed this

    There’s a trust weird article in the world’s greatest magazine, the Spectator, where the writer - a friend of Sunak? - keeps overtly hinting he has some personal reason to loathe Cameron - but won’t reveal what it is

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-david-camerons-comeback/

    I count five references to this mysterious animus in that (not very long) piece. Maybe I woke up on the conspiracy theory side of the bed, but it reads to me awfully like “I have some dirt on Cameron and this is me publicly threatening him that unless he plays nice I’ll reveal it”.
    Yes, it’s quite striking, isn’t it. Also it sounds very personal. Like an adulterous affair or some dark betrayal (these are just speculations!)

    I agree it can be read as a threat
    Reads to me like something both personal and trivial like Cameron left the pub when it was his round, or didn't invite him to his wedding, or denied he was resigning and then resigned after the writer had written his headlines and placed his bet.
    Yes, all sounds rather vainglorious from the author. I doubt it's much of a scandal in anyone's eyes but his. I say this not because Dave is a wonderful man incapable of inflicting harm, but it just seems unlikely that someone of Dave's standing would have a lowly Spectator hack in his orbit for long enough to make much difference.
    You don’t get out much. The Spectator crew is intimately bound up with the Tory leadership in multiple ways - eg Sunak’s best man was James Forsyth. Ex spectator. Boris was the editor. Dominic Cummings is married to Mary Wakefield - spectator editor. Etc etc
    All a bit yesterday's men-ny. Even Sunak is yesterday's dead man walking.
    The magazine will certainly lose influence when Starmer takes over. It’ll be interesting to see what journal fills the slot for Labour. Presumably a mix of the guardian and the Staggers

    However the spec has been the house magazine for the Tory party for decades now - recall that Nigel Lawson was the editor in the 60s. I don’t think that’s going to change, so unless the Tories actually disappear, its influence - long term - will endure

    It has too much pedigree and prestige. Hence the eager buyers
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    edited November 2023

    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Here is some advice to all MPs, freemans, use Grammarly or similar AI-infused proofreading and writing tools. It's not hard, it's not expensive and you can claim it back on expenses anyway.
    I'd never use a tool like that for anything that might be confidential.
    That’s because you understand IT security.

    Wait until everyone uploads their sensitive and confidential documents to some random Chinese server, thereby giving the CCP a few days’ notice of the announcement.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    kinabalu said:

    On Topic: As with many late night shenanigans this Cameron stunt of Sunak’s looks different in the cold light of the morning after. This one has unravelled particularly quickly for me. It’s another pasty tax but worse. Ok, it grabbed the headlines (good), pissed off the loony right (good), might end up saving a few seats here and there in the blue wall (good), but when you stop and really think about what he’s gone and done here, drafted in the last PM but three to be his actual Foreign Secretary, it’s ludicrous!

    Terrific for Dave of course, he’s back feeling buzzy and important, big cheeses will be taking his calls again, but what does it say about the state of the Conservative Party? It says they are utterly bereft of ideas, talent and direction. The well is dry. We knew that anyway but this scrawls it in magic marker on a placard and hangs it round their neck for all to see, just in case anybody was in any doubt.

    And Rishi. What does it say about him? Again, all negative. A heartbeat ago at the party conference he was defining himself as the ‘change’ we needed after decades of failed government. Now he turns for succour to the bloke who was in power longer than any other for the most recent of those decades. So it was all bollox then. His leader speech at his party conference was all bollox. Truly risible. He seems to have given up entirely on defining himself and the government he (supposedly?) leads.

    A good post but after some of the vox pops I'vr been listening to I've come to the concusion British voters are pretty simple folk and also pretty racist. A Home Secretary leading an army of skinheads to the cenotaph is not to everyone the repulsive sight you or I might suppose it to be.

    I fear the further we get from the EU the further we're losing our civilising influences. Cameron's appointment looked like an attempt to hold back the tide but the appointment of Esther McVey showed he was just backing his horse both ways.

    I wish I thought Labour would help but they won't. Starmer is every bit as cynical as Sunak. They're both after the lowest common denominator and they'll do whatever is required to get them
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I am happy that Dave is back in the party. And that Rees Mogg is up in arms.

    Means I might not even have to hold my nose next time round.

    I will not be alone.

    I sometimes wonder about JRM. Is he actually self-aware enough to realise how he comes across, yet he does it anyway (in some ways admirable); or does he totally lack self-awareness? It has to be one or the other.

    Or is it all an act, and at home he kicks around in a North Face jacket and tracksuit bottoms whilst drinking lager?
    No. He does not kick around at home in trackie bottoms.

    Whether if you dig deep enough he "enjoys" this persona or might like to have been a beat poet hanging out at The French House is a ship that has long since sailed.
    He's box office. He will be on Question Time this week I'm told. When the audience were told last week, they booed! He's a pantomime villain for sure but probably an affable enough sort IRL.
    A couple of years ago he got a very big round of applause on QT, for correctly identifying housing as the biggest issue facing the country, and that government should do everything to enable housebuilding. He’s very aware of how he comes across, but is much more clued-in and thoughtful than the persona suggests. An unpopular view, but we need more like him in Parliament.
  • Sandpit said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Here is some advice to all MPs, freemans, use Grammarly or similar AI-infused proofreading and writing tools. It's not hard, it's not expensive and you can claim it back on expenses anyway.
    I'd never use a tool like that for anything that might be confidential.
    That’s because you understand IT security.

    Wait until everyone uploads their sensitive and confidential documents to some random Chinese server, thereby giving the CCP a few days’ notice of the announcement.
    Like the Cabinet using Zoom, for instance (not to mention showing ministers' personal email addresses on screen). But yes, good point on confidentiality. I'd not considered that; in this particular instance of a letter dashed off for immediate publication, the question does not arise but yes, use of cloud-based AI tools does involve uploading your own content (although by default so does using Windows, Alexa and so on).
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,281
    Chris said:

    Some thoughts:

    1. Another huge uturn from Sunak. His "the last 30 years were crap, I am Mr Change" agenda never took off. Bringing back his Great-Great-Great-PM as FS kills it completely.
    2. Lord Pigbotherer isn't remotely comparable to Lord Mandy. The latter slimed his way into the machinery of government and brought stability, the former will be sent off to try and sort out Israel and Ukraine and America.
    3. Firing Cruella has lit the fuse on the next round ot the Tory civil war. Bringing McVile in as Bigoted Opinions Czar won't appease them, and is about as laughable a role and hire as could have been done.

    I know that Cameron has fanbois. But his time is long over - we're on our 4th PM since he flounced. Nor will the things I liked about him be allowed to flourish. No progressive politics allowed in today's Fuck Off Tory Party.

    A few people have now posted views that this will only accelerate the Tory collapse towards ELE. Its certainly possible.

    Mandelson did not 'bring stability'. He did make himself a lot of money, though...

    Remember, he resigned from government *twice*. Once over a dodgy loan; the other over a dodgy passport application.

    He did bring stability to Brown's government.

    Plus it is a bit of antisemitic trope to accuse a Jew of being money obsessed.

    Being Jewish is not some kind of shield that you can use against all criticism.
    I think you are mistaken about that these days.
    No I am not.

    And FWIW (although I don’t think that was your intention) your suggestion of an all powerful conspiracy to protect the Jews could be … misinterpreted ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    On Topic: As with many late night shenanigans this Cameron stunt of Sunak’s looks different in the cold light of the morning after. This one has unravelled particularly quickly for me. It’s another pasty tax but worse. Ok, it grabbed the headlines (good), pissed off the loony right (good), might end up saving a few seats here and there in the blue wall (good), but when you stop and really think about what he’s gone and done here, drafted in the last PM but three to be his actual Foreign Secretary, it’s ludicrous!

    Terrific for Dave of course, he’s back feeling buzzy and important, big cheeses will be taking his calls again, but what does it say about the state of the Conservative Party? It says they are utterly bereft of ideas, talent and direction. The well is dry. We knew that anyway but this scrawls it in magic marker on a placard and hangs it round their neck for all to see, just in case anybody was in any doubt.

    And Rishi. What does it say about him? Again, all negative. A heartbeat ago at the party conference he was defining himself as the ‘change’ we needed after decades of failed government. Now he turns for succour to the bloke who was in power longer than any other for the most recent of those decades. So it was all bollox then. His leader speech at his party conference was all bollox. Truly risible. He seems to have given up entirely on defining himself and the government he (supposedly?) leads.

    A good post but after some of the vox pops I'vr been listening to I've come to the concusion British voters are pretty simple folk and also pretty racist. A Home Secretary leading an army of skinheads to the cenotaph is not to everyone the repulsive sight you or I might suppose it to be.

    I fear the further we get from the EU the further we're losing our civilising influences. Cameron's appointment looked like an attempt to hold back the tide but the appointment of Esther McVey showed he was just backing his horse both ways.

    I wish I thought Labour would help but they won't. Starmer is every bit as cynical as Sunak. They're both after the lowest common denominator and they'll do whatever is required to get them
    You do realise that in your beloved EU

    Hungary has a far right leader
    Poland has an anti immigrant leader
    Italy has a hard right leader
    Sweden has the far right in government
    Denmark is bulldozing “ethnic ghettoes”
    The polls in France show the next president will likely be marine le pen
    In Germany the far right AFD are now polling second

    And so on. Is that the “civilising influence” that you miss?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    I wonder how many Remainers have noticed the hard right drift of the EU?

    Some of my Remainer friends have - but they are highly educated and hyper political

    I doubt the average low watt punter has realised. Hence, Roger
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    edited November 2023

    Sandpit said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Here is some advice to all MPs, freemans, use Grammarly or similar AI-infused proofreading and writing tools. It's not hard, it's not expensive and you can claim it back on expenses anyway.
    I'd never use a tool like that for anything that might be confidential.
    That’s because you understand IT security.

    Wait until everyone uploads their sensitive and confidential documents to some random Chinese server, thereby giving the CCP a few days’ notice of the announcement.
    Like the Cabinet using Zoom, for instance (not to mention showing ministers' personal email addresses on screen). But yes, good point on confidentiality. I'd not considered that; in this particular instance of a letter dashed off for immediate publication, the question does not arise but yes, use of cloud-based AI tools does involve uploading your own content (although by default so does using Windows, Alexa and so on).
    Zoom, WhatsApp, and a whole load of similar services. Adobe have a really useful web service that OCRs a PDF into a Word document with formatting intact, which I’ve just blocked at work.

    What the politicians don’t understand, and likely need a crash course in understanding, is how easy it would be for eg. A Chinese AI service, to target them specifically, the needle in a haystack among millions of documents running through the service. A letter such as that under discussion, could probably be at the Chinese embassy in London a few minutes after it was submitted.

    Alexa has been used to solve murders, we know that Amazon will turn over the contents of recordings on a device, given enough political pressure.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,672
    Sandpit said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Here is some advice to all MPs, freemans, use Grammarly or similar AI-infused proofreading and writing tools. It's not hard, it's not expensive and you can claim it back on expenses anyway.
    I'd never use a tool like that for anything that might be confidential.
    That’s because you understand IT security.

    Wait until everyone uploads their sensitive and confidential documents to some random Chinese server, thereby giving the CCP a few days’ notice of the announcement.
    Incidentally, I recently heard of a small company that kept a master password file for documents and a couple of servers in the cloud.

    In an unencrypted file. So anyone in the company who needed to access data could get at it. Including things like payroll and customer data. Which is probably not legal.

    An acquaintance had the nice job of trying to give them a large packet of clue. He fears he failed, as the issues were institutional. As in all the managers need to be in an institution...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Here is some advice to all MPs, freemans, use Grammarly or similar AI-infused proofreading and writing tools. It's not hard, it's not expensive and you can claim it back on expenses anyway.
    I'd never use a tool like that for anything that might be confidential.
    That’s because you understand IT security.

    Wait until everyone uploads their sensitive and confidential documents to some random Chinese server, thereby giving the CCP a few days’ notice of the announcement.
    Like the Cabinet using Zoom, for instance (not to mention showing ministers' personal email addresses on screen). But yes, good point on confidentiality. I'd not considered that; in this particular instance of a letter dashed off for immediate publication, the question does not arise but yes, use of cloud-based AI tools does involve uploading your own content (although by default so does using Windows, Alexa and so on).
    Zoom, WhatsApp, and a whole load of similar services. Adobe have a really useful web service that OCRs a PDF into a Word document with formatting intact, which I’ve just blocked at work.

    What the politicians don’t understand, and likely need a crash course in understanding, is how easy it would be for eg. A Chinese AI service, to target them specifically, the needle in a haystack of millions of documents running through the service. A letter such as that under discussion, could probably be at the Chinese embassy in London a few minutes after it was submitted.
    Cough cough TikTok....Temu....Pinduoduo apps have been found in the past to be total spyware, looking at a whole range of things on your phone and sending that info back to central servers.

    Do people not wonder how or why a company would send you sell you stuff for 99c and ship it from China at no cost, apparently losing $10s on every order. It isn't because they are just nice.

    But Trump didn't like TikTok, so we love it....cos he was well racist.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    And?

    Elon Musk has openly declared himself a free speech absolutist. He wants to censor as little as possible on any side. So you will find anti semitism AND Islamophobia - as the article says

    You can agree or disagree with his policy. But then, no one is forcing you to go on TwiX so what is your problem?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    And?

    Elon Musk has openly declared himself a free speech absolutist. He wants to censor as little as possible on any side. So you will find anti semitism AND Islamophobia - as the article says

    You can agree or disagree with his policy. But then, no one is forcing you to go on TwiX so what is your problem?
    Yes. Imagine how many stories about Twitter censorship we’d have been reading for the past month, under the old Twitter management?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    It is ironic that Cameron has been appointed Foreign Secretary, since most foreign policy during his time as PM was such a disaster. The egregious ones were Syria, Ukraine (in fairness he was better than the Frogs or the Krauts) and sucking up to Commie China. And of course failing to prepare the country for leaving the EU then running away immediately when it voted to.

    Still, failing repeatedly never seems to stop people getting top jobs in the public sector. And it was quite amusing to see the commentariat so completely wrong-footed.

    Also: Libya

    Cameron was terrible. All he ever did was gay marriage. That’s it
    He also kept the confidence of the financial markets through austerity in the public sector. But his (and Osborne's) programme of austerity had two big problems. They applied it indiscriminately across most of the public sector, rather than focusing cuts on non-essential parts like administration and procurement and they didn't create the conditions that enabled the lower interest rates that austerity allowed to boost economic growth hugely. They should have allowed the very low interest rates to spark a house-building boom as it did in the 1930s (which is why there are so many 30s semis in southern England). Instead, austerity has caused lots of damage to front-line public services as well as being a massive missed opportunity to let the economy flourish.

    Overall he was mediocre to poor in domestic policy and poor in foreign policy.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    On Topic: As with many late night shenanigans this Cameron stunt of Sunak’s looks different in the cold light of the morning after. This one has unravelled particularly quickly for me. It’s another pasty tax but worse. Ok, it grabbed the headlines (good), pissed off the loony right (good), might end up saving a few seats here and there in the blue wall (good), but when you stop and really think about what he’s gone and done here, drafted in the last PM but three to be his actual Foreign Secretary, it’s ludicrous!

    Terrific for Dave of course, he’s back feeling buzzy and important, big cheeses will be taking his calls again, but what does it say about the state of the Conservative Party? It says they are utterly bereft of ideas, talent and direction. The well is dry. We knew that anyway but this scrawls it in magic marker on a placard and hangs it round their neck for all to see, just in case anybody was in any doubt.

    And Rishi. What does it say about him? Again, all negative. A heartbeat ago at the party conference he was defining himself as the ‘change’ we needed after decades of failed government. Now he turns for succour to the bloke who was in power longer than any other for the most recent of those decades. So it was all bollox then. His leader speech at his party conference was all bollox. Truly risible. He seems to have given up entirely on defining himself and the government he (supposedly?) leads.

    A good post but after some of the vox pops I'vr been listening to I've come to the concusion British voters are pretty simple folk and also pretty racist. A Home Secretary leading an army of skinheads to the cenotaph is not to everyone the repulsive sight you or I might suppose it to be.

    I fear the further we get from the EU the further we're losing our civilising influences. Cameron's appointment looked like an attempt to hold back the tide but the appointment of Esther McVey showed he was just backing his horse both ways.

    I wish I thought Labour would help but they won't. Starmer is every bit as cynical as Sunak. They're both after the lowest common denominator and they'll do whatever is required to get them
    You do realise that in your beloved EU

    Hungary has a far right leader
    Poland has an anti immigrant leader
    Italy has a hard right leader
    Sweden has the far right in government
    Denmark is bulldozing “ethnic ghettoes”
    The polls in France show the next president will likely be marine le pen
    In Germany the far right AFD are now polling second

    And so on. Is that the “civilising influence” that you miss?
    A lot of this is to do with the turn of the electoral cycle. But, certainly, when it spins to the right there seems no longer to be the old Christian Democrat alternative that there used to be. With Sunak heading for the centre the UK after the Brexit shock, curiously, more resembles the old Social Democrat/Christian Democrat structure which once characterised continental politics, than is now actually found in the EU now.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Virtually every Jew I know is ardently pro Israel even if they despise the Israeli government of the day

    They usually express it as: “after everything we’ve been through, we need one country we know is safe. Where we can always go if it comes to it”

    In fact I’m not sure I’ve met a Jew that doesn’t feel this, tho they must exist. Perhaps you are one
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Virtually every Jew I know is ardently pro Israel even if they despise the Israeli government of the day

    They usually express it as: “after everything we’ve been through, we need one country we know is safe. Where we can always go if it comes to it”

    In fact I’m not sure I’ve met a Jew that doesn’t feel this, tho they must exist. Perhaps you are one
    They are the ones that Jezza always finds to call friends and hold them up as example of why he definitely can't be an antisemite.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,672
    Leon said:

    And?

    Elon Musk has openly declared himself a free speech absolutist. He wants to censor as little as possible on any side. So you will find anti semitism AND Islamophobia - as the article says

    You can agree or disagree with his policy. But then, no one is forcing you to go on TwiX so what is your problem?
    Except he's not so free speech when it comes to stuff about himself. And that's a big issue. You are either fully pro-free speech, and accept that means for everyone, and accept the problems that might occur. Or you do accept that there are limits to free speech, set fair and publicised rules, and try to apply those rules fairly.

    Whereas too much of Twitter's policy seems to be "It must not upset Elon."
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,073
    Sandpit said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Kind of ironic that I broadly like Sunak's reshuffle, but Jenkyns' response makes me less likely to vote Conservative.

    This is interesting from today's Daily Mail's leader column

    'But moving the impressive James Cleverly to Home Secretary is smart as is appointing Esther McVey as Common Sense Tsar to oversee the anti-woke agenda.

    Will this be enough to placate the Tory Right ? Only time will tell but any MP who thinks salvation is in yet more no-confidence letters - and trying to insert another leader - needs their head testing'

    I am not a fan of the Mail but they certainly have targeted Jenkyns this morning
    I had to read her letter again this morning to make sure I didn't just imagine it. I can only imagine or hope she was drunk when she wrote it.
    She seems to have the same delusions as Dorries and frankly losing her seat at GE 24 would be the best outcome
    The Spectator absolutely ripping the p*ss out of Andrea's letter:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-many-problems-with-andrea-jenkynss-letter-to-rishi-sunak/

    If even the Speccie no longer takes that faction of the Tory party seriously then it's surely time for some humility and reassessment.
    Here is some advice to all MPs, freemans, use Grammarly or similar AI-infused proofreading and writing tools. It's not hard, it's not expensive and you can claim it back on expenses anyway.
    I'd never use a tool like that for anything that might be confidential.
    That’s because you understand IT security.

    Wait until everyone uploads their sensitive and confidential documents to some random Chinese server, thereby giving the CCP a few days’ notice of the announcement.
    Seems fair, they have often paid for them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023
    JohnO said:

    O/T Congrats to @Tissue_Price on his appointment as an Assistant Whip - this man's is going places!

    Unfortunately probably back to civie street in a years time, which is a shame as need more people like him in parliament.
  • Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Virtually every Jew I know is ardently pro Israel even if they despise the Israeli government of the day

    They usually express it as: “after everything we’ve been through, we need one country we know is safe. Where we can always go if it comes to it”

    In fact I’m not sure I’ve met a Jew that doesn’t feel this, tho they must exist. Perhaps you are one
    They are the ones that Jezza always finds to call friends and hold them up as example of why he definitely can't be an antisemite.
    I recall a conversation with a Jewish woman who told me that the claims of antisemitism against Corbyn were a smear, so they certainly do exist.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,080
    edited November 2023

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    Virtually every Jew I know is ardently pro Israel even if they despise the Israeli government of the day

    They usually express it as: “after everything we’ve been through, we need one country we know is safe. Where we can always go if it comes to it”

    In fact I’m not sure I’ve met a Jew that doesn’t feel this, tho they must exist. Perhaps you are one
    They are the ones that Jezza always finds to call friends and hold them up as example of why he definitely can't be an antisemite.
    I recall a conversation with a Jewish woman who told me that the claims of antisemitism against Corbyn were a smear, so they certainly do exist.
    Oh they exist. But they are a fringe minority. There was the weird campaign group for Jezza that was basically Jews for Jezza who claimed it was all a witch-hunt.

    There are of course fringe Jewish figures in Israel who say Israel shouldn't exist, should be given over to the Palestinians and I don't mean the ultra-orthodox ones who don't believe it should exist in current form as not religious enough.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Roger said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Seems I was wrong about the disappearance of racist cabbies


    “Not got an Uber for a while. Stunned by antisemitism after mentioning I was a journalist, which invited rant on Middle East.

    “Zionism conspiracy etc. Hamas want peace, two-state solution.”

    I pointed out killing 1,400 people an odd way to show it.

    So he kicked me out of car.”

    https://x.com/mattchorley/status/1724194466460803143?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    This is catastrophic. Well done: the British Left

    7th October denial is the new holocaust denial.
    Yes. Its visible on that thread

    “Most of the people that died on October 7 were killed by Israeli soldiers”

    Also the amount of flat out denial. “No that didn’t happen”. “You’re a pathetic Israeli shill and you’re lying”. “Total fabrication”

    The irony is that the journalist, Matt Chorley, is a pretty feeble woke centre-lefty
    I think there are quite a few left of centre types getting quite a shock just how anti-semitism isn't isolated to a few fringe people who Jezza calls friends, how overt it has become (its ok to chant a terrorist slogan in public, calling for the removal of all Jews from Middle East), after for long periods of time talking up the dangers of far right extremism.
    One of the odder things is the double standards applied to thinking around 'river to the sea'. Jewish people, on the whole, find this a frightening phrase with implications of genocide. But the same people who police all manner of language, on the (often justified) basis that your intent isn't the point, it's how it lands with the people in question - don't seem to give a shit because, y'know, Jews.

    I am certain that many (most?) people who chant it don't have genocidal intent. But that's not the point.
    Do you thiink most Jews believe themselves to be Israelis?
    No, but the great majority of Jewish people have some sort of relationship with, or at least position on, Israel. It is not simple.

    And a lot of people do conflate Jewish things and people with Israeli things and people.
This discussion has been closed.