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Meet the don’t knows – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,163
edited October 2023 in General
Meet the don’t knows – politicalbetting.com

Full analysis and data at: https://t.co/kaJBHMKpUx

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945
    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Quite. As I said in a previous thread, it is perfectly possible to disagree with Israeli foreign policy while still denouncing what happened as a shocking and deplorable terrorist attack. Civilians were gunned down, set fire to, babies were burned alive, women were r*ped. People who cannot bring themselves to condemn that deserve no quarter.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited October 2023
    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yes, according to the Yougov analysis they sound very similar to those sticking with the Conservatives at the moment. Focusing on persuading them to vote, however unenthusiastically, is surely going to be the top Tory priority. Their age and demographics indicate that they are people more likely to vote than most so it is not impossible.

    I think that this is a point that Mike has made a few times over recent months in the context of the Labour lead. It looks like he was spot on.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    There is another alternative: they're doing this Jurassic Park style.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
  • DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    Was he okay with the Lizzie’s in a box chants?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,039
    edited October 2023
    Sandpit said:

    1997 redux. Lab gained 2m votes, but the Tories lost 4m votes compared to 1992. Probably a lot of Conservatives sitting on their hands next year, and a lot of activists upset that the MPs replaced the winner with the loser in the last leadership election.

    Edit: @JACK_W is back!

    Wonderful. We have lots of Conservatives, Labour and LDs on here but I've missed the Jacobite perspective on Palestine, Trump and Ukraine recently.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    There is another alternative: they're doing this Jurassic Park style.
    In fairness there has been significant attrition of the dinosaurs on their back benches of late.
  • Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Yes.

    ANC terrorist attacks often led to people on the streets of London and elsewhere supporting the ANC.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457
    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    It's astonishing, isn't it?

    It says terrible things about the moral compass of the West.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    Was he okay with the Lizzie’s in a box chants?
    Not really but they were far more sporadic than this.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    Possibly premature. There are plenty of opportunities for other howlers before dawn breaks.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    We’re they bothered about it before then ? It’s not something that has only just started to happen it’s being going on a while.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    I have a few extended family with season tickets at Celtic Park. They see the Irish context and chanting as funny history now, and really don’t like the politicisation of the events in Israel.
  • Boris Johnson and his former adviser Dominic Cummings sent “disgusting and misogynistic” WhatsApp messages that will be released by the Covid-19 inquiry, George Osborne has claimed.

    On Tuesday, Cummings is due to give evidence at the public inquiry, while the former prime minister is expected to give evidence next month.

    Osborne, the former chancellor, said: “I’ve got to be a little bit careful here — it’s a judicial inquiry. But from what I understand, there are some pretty staggering things that have been said on those WhatsApp messages not just by Boris Johnson, but key advisers like Dominic Cummings — really pretty disgusting language and misogynistic language. And I think if you didn’t think very highly of that period of government, you’re gonna feel even less highly after you’ve heard those messages next week.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-and-dominic-cummings-sent-sexist-whatsapps-x36qv6cbq
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    We’re they bothered about it before then ? It’s not something that has only just started to happen it’s being going on a while.

    The catholic minority in Scotland has always felt oppressed, historically for very good
    reasons. They have a natural empathy with other oppressed groups and that includes the Palestinians. So I think it’s fair to say that it has been there for a long time but I have never seen it go mainstream like this. It’s quite hard for an outsider to get their head around.

    Maybe @JackW can give a better historical perspective.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    I have a few extended family with season tickets at Celtic Park. They see the Irish context and chanting as funny history now, and really don’t like the politicisation of the events in Israel.
    That’s pretty much where my friend is.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    @TSE my good Surrey friend is a neat example of the 2019 demographic. Homeowner, non-degree educated, female.

    She has just now said she won't vote Conservative next time. But she would vote Boris.

    They loved Boris. And Boris ain't on the ticket. They're lost to the tories: they aren't coming back.
  • Electronic messages sent by Scotland’s clinical director, who led the country’s fight against Covid, have been destroyed and cannot be handed to official inquiries, it can be revealed.

    Professor Jason Leitch deleted all of his WhatsApp communications every day, which meant there were none left to preserve when a “do not destroy” notice was issued by the UK Covid-19 inquiry.

    Scottish ministers were castigated for failing to hand over messages to the hearing and were warned that they risked breaking the law by failing to retain records.

    The inquiry was told that none of the private messages written during the pandemic by Nicola Sturgeon, then the first minister, or her health or finances ministers had been disclosed.

    The deletion of Leitch’s messages is likely to fuel concerns that the Scottish government will avoid full scrutiny at the inquiry.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jason-leitch-deleted-whatsapp-messages-every-day-during-covid-pandemic-ffwb3thdg
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,790
    Good morning, everyone.

    FPT Mr. B, saw your Twitter post on how many times teams have had the plank checked (random):
    https://twitter.com/wearetherace/status/1717528247896850848

    Unlucky for Mercedes and Ferrari, but that's the nature of randomness.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    edited October 2023

    Boris Johnson and his former adviser Dominic Cummings sent “disgusting and misogynistic” WhatsApp messages that will be released by the Covid-19 inquiry, George Osborne has claimed.

    On Tuesday, Cummings is due to give evidence at the public inquiry, while the former prime minister is expected to give evidence next month.

    Osborne, the former chancellor, said: “I’ve got to be a little bit careful here — it’s a judicial inquiry. But from what I understand, there are some pretty staggering things that have been said on those WhatsApp messages not just by Boris Johnson, but key advisers like Dominic Cummings — really pretty disgusting language and misogynistic language. And I think if you didn’t think very highly of that period of government, you’re gonna feel even less highly after you’ve heard those messages next week.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-and-dominic-cummings-sent-sexist-whatsapps-x36qv6cbq

    I love his turn of phrase: “didn’t think very highly of that period of government”.

    But once again we seem to be getting embarrassing tranches of material with little obvious relevance other than embarrassment. All future governments will follow the Scottish example of deleting everything.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,039
    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    There were lots of protests in favour of the January 6th attempted coup in America, which killed half a dozen people iirc.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Boris Johnson and his former adviser Dominic Cummings sent “disgusting and misogynistic” WhatsApp messages that will be released by the Covid-19 inquiry, George Osborne has claimed.

    On Tuesday, Cummings is due to give evidence at the public inquiry, while the former prime minister is expected to give evidence next month.

    Osborne, the former chancellor, said: “I’ve got to be a little bit careful here — it’s a judicial inquiry. But from what I understand, there are some pretty staggering things that have been said on those WhatsApp messages not just by Boris Johnson, but key advisers like Dominic Cummings — really pretty disgusting language and misogynistic language. And I think if you didn’t think very highly of that period of government, you’re gonna feel even less highly after you’ve heard those messages next week.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-and-dominic-cummings-sent-sexist-whatsapps-x36qv6cbq

    George Osborne is wrong.

    It would be actually impossible for me to 'feel even less highly' of Cumstain and Massive Johnson.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    Heathener said:

    @TSE my good Surrey friend is a neat example of the 2019 demographic. Homeowner, non-degree educated, female.

    She has just now said she won't vote Conservative next time. But she would vote Boris.

    They loved Boris. And Boris ain't on the ticket. They're lost to the tories: they aren't coming back.

    I know a couple of people who would be the opposite of this. They detested Boris with a passion and broke the habit of a lifetime to vote Lib Dem in local elections, but (though I’ve not checked for sure) seem much more comfortable with Sunak’s for all his lack of charisma. I expect they’ll come home to Tory in the next election.

    The difference is perhaps degree vs non degree educated. The latter saw through his schtick.
  • TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yup, stupid,middle-class, comfortable, elderly females living in some comfort in the South of England. They can't make up their minds.

    You get a lot of them round here.

    On the day, they will vote Conservative, because that is what they have done before and it is what the Daily Mail tells them to do.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    There is another alternative: they're doing this Jurassic Park style.
    In fairness there has been significant attrition of the dinosaurs on their back benches of late.
    And it has Rexed their chances at the next election.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662
    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yes, according to the Yougov analysis they sound very similar to those sticking with the Conservatives at the moment. Focusing on persuading them to vote, however unenthusiastically, is surely going to be the top Tory priority. Their age and demographics indicate that they are people more likely to vote than most so it is not impossible.

    I think that this is a point that Mike has made a few times over recent months in the context of the Labour lead. It looks like he was spot on.
    Though in the pollsters that do assign the DKs to their former vote, the Lab lead is still decisive and formidable.

    The DKs aren't going to save Sunaks bacon.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yup, stupid,middle-class, comfortable, elderly females living in some comfort in the South of England. They can't make up their minds.

    You get a lot of them round here.

    On the day, they will vote Conservative, because that is what they have done before and it is what the Daily Mail tells them to do.
    ...brutal?...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    There is another alternative: they're doing this Jurassic Park style.
    In fairness there has been significant attrition of the dinosaurs on their back benches of late.
    And it has Rexed their chances at the next election.
    As I said yesterday, never too early. You saurus coming.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    There is another alternative: they're doing this Jurassic Park style.
    In fairness there has been significant attrition of the dinosaurs on their back benches of late.
    And it has Rexed their chances at the next election.
    As I said yesterday, never too early. You saurus coming.
    Then I'd better head off, bronto.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Electronic messages sent by Scotland’s clinical director, who led the country’s fight against Covid, have been destroyed and cannot be handed to official inquiries, it can be revealed.

    Professor Jason Leitch deleted all of his WhatsApp communications every day, which meant there were none left to preserve when a “do not destroy” notice was issued by the UK Covid-19 inquiry.

    Scottish ministers were castigated for failing to hand over messages to the hearing and were warned that they risked breaking the law by failing to retain records.

    The inquiry was told that none of the private messages written during the pandemic by Nicola Sturgeon, then the first minister, or her health or finances ministers had been disclosed.

    The deletion of Leitch’s messages is likely to fuel concerns that the Scottish government will avoid full scrutiny at the inquiry.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jason-leitch-deleted-whatsapp-messages-every-day-during-covid-pandemic-ffwb3thdg

    ...always delete your bowsing history....
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995

    TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yup, stupid,middle-class, comfortable, elderly females living in some comfort in the South of England. They can't make up their minds.

    You get a lot of them round here.

    On the day, they will vote Conservative, because that is what they have done before and it is what the Daily Mail tells them to do.
    ...brutal?...
    A bit unfair on the females, as the male version is just a variation on the theme. Instead of saying he’s undecided, he’s adamant he’s had enough of the Tories and will either “vote Reform to give the government a kick in the teeth” or “not vote, they’re all as bad as each other”. Then on the day will vote Conservative, because that is what he’s done before.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    There is another alternative: they're doing this Jurassic Park style.
    In fairness there has been significant attrition of the dinosaurs on their back benches of late.
    And it has Rexed their chances at the next election.
    As I said yesterday, never too early. You saurus coming.
    Then I'd better head off, bronto.
    Yes I think we’ll call it a raptor there.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yes, according to the Yougov analysis they sound very similar to those sticking with the Conservatives at the moment. Focusing on persuading them to vote, however unenthusiastically, is surely going to be the top Tory priority. Their age and demographics indicate that they are people more likely to vote than most so it is not impossible.

    I think that this is a point that Mike has made a few times over recent months in the context of the Labour lead. It looks like he was spot on.
    Though in the pollsters that do assign the DKs to their former vote, the Lab lead is still decisive and formidable.

    The DKs aren't going to save Sunaks bacon.
    They may well save a large rump of Tory seats though. They are the best chance of 250+ Tories in the next Parliament.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    I have a few extended family with season tickets at Celtic Park. They see the Irish context and chanting as funny history now, and really don’t like the politicisation of the events in Israel.
    That’s pretty much where my friend is.
    I’m not sure there’s a better example anywhere in team sport of ‘can’t they both lose’ than Rangers and Celtic. More than even Man U and Liverpool (and, I would imagine, Boca and River, both of whose fan cultures seem tedious and entitled). Without them Scottish football culture is an absolute joy. But they dominate with their weirdo posturing and culturally-excused chauvinism.
  • Electronic messages sent by Scotland’s clinical director, who led the country’s fight against Covid, have been destroyed and cannot be handed to official inquiries, it can be revealed.

    Professor Jason Leitch deleted all of his WhatsApp communications every day, which meant there were none left to preserve when a “do not destroy” notice was issued by the UK Covid-19 inquiry.

    Scottish ministers were castigated for failing to hand over messages to the hearing and were warned that they risked breaking the law by failing to retain records.

    The inquiry was told that none of the private messages written during the pandemic by Nicola Sturgeon, then the first minister, or her health or finances ministers had been disclosed.

    The deletion of Leitch’s messages is likely to fuel concerns that the Scottish government will avoid full scrutiny at the inquiry.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jason-leitch-deleted-whatsapp-messages-every-day-during-covid-pandemic-ffwb3thdg

    ...always delete your bowsing history....
    Doesn't work.

    Also iCloud photos is where the real danger is, as a modest chap found out during his first marriage.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    There is another alternative: they're doing this Jurassic Park style.
    In fairness there has been significant attrition of the dinosaurs on their back benches of late.
    And it has Rexed their chances at the next election.
    Needs addressing, bronto.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662
    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    Much as they are charming and fairly benign I think the government is probably right not to reintroduce howler monkeys to the UK.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    edited October 2023
    Ghedebrav said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    I have a few extended family with season tickets at Celtic Park. They see the Irish context and chanting as funny history now, and really don’t like the politicisation of the events in Israel.
    That’s pretty much where my friend is.
    I’m not sure there’s a better example anywhere in team sport of ‘can’t they both lose’ than Rangers and Celtic. More than even Man U and Liverpool (and, I would imagine, Boca and River, both of whose fan cultures seem tedious and entitled). Without them Scottish football culture is an absolute joy. But they dominate with their weirdo posturing and culturally-excused chauvinism.
    I wish that were true but, sadly, without them Scottish football would be even more of an economic disaster zone than it currently is.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    Much as they are charming and fairly benign I think the government is probably right not to reintroduce howler monkeys to the UK.
    they're here already, in Fleet Street, or Wapping.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Electronic messages sent by Scotland’s clinical director, who led the country’s fight against Covid, have been destroyed and cannot be handed to official inquiries, it can be revealed.

    Professor Jason Leitch deleted all of his WhatsApp communications every day, which meant there were none left to preserve when a “do not destroy” notice was issued by the UK Covid-19 inquiry.

    Scottish ministers were castigated for failing to hand over messages to the hearing and were warned that they risked breaking the law by failing to retain records.

    The inquiry was told that none of the private messages written during the pandemic by Nicola Sturgeon, then the first minister, or her health or finances ministers had been disclosed.

    The deletion of Leitch’s messages is likely to fuel concerns that the Scottish government will avoid full scrutiny at the inquiry.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jason-leitch-deleted-whatsapp-messages-every-day-during-covid-pandemic-ffwb3thdg

    ...always delete your bowsing history....
    Doesn't work.

    Also iCloud photos is where the real danger is, as a modest chap found out during his first marriage.
    omgggg
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yes, according to the Yougov analysis they sound very similar to those sticking with the Conservatives at the moment. Focusing on persuading them to vote, however unenthusiastically, is surely going to be the top Tory priority. Their age and demographics indicate that they are people more likely to vote than most so it is not impossible.

    I think that this is a point that Mike has made a few times over recent months in the context of the Labour lead. It looks like he was spot on.
    Though in the pollsters that do assign the DKs to their former vote, the Lab lead is still decisive and formidable.

    The DKs aren't going to save Sunaks bacon.
    They may well save a large rump of Tory seats though. They are the best chance of 250+ Tories in the next Parliament.
    We know that in nearly every poll on nearly every subject more females outnumber males by 2 to 1 as DKs. Whether this is open mindedness or indecisiveness is also a don't know, but they do vote at the same rate as the males in the end.

    Females are however a demographic that leans Labour, and aren't turned on by Culture War issues, for example more tolerant on immigration or Trans issues, and also more pro-education, pro-NHS and pro-environment. They are more Centrist, and more likely to be alienated than reassured by current Tory campaigning on Culture War.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    ydoethur said:

    Boris Johnson and his former adviser Dominic Cummings sent “disgusting and misogynistic” WhatsApp messages that will be released by the Covid-19 inquiry, George Osborne has claimed.

    On Tuesday, Cummings is due to give evidence at the public inquiry, while the former prime minister is expected to give evidence next month.

    Osborne, the former chancellor, said: “I’ve got to be a little bit careful here — it’s a judicial inquiry. But from what I understand, there are some pretty staggering things that have been said on those WhatsApp messages not just by Boris Johnson, but key advisers like Dominic Cummings — really pretty disgusting language and misogynistic language. And I think if you didn’t think very highly of that period of government, you’re gonna feel even less highly after you’ve heard those messages next week.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-and-dominic-cummings-sent-sexist-whatsapps-x36qv6cbq

    George Osborne is wrong.

    It would be actually impossible for me to 'feel even less highly' of Cumstain and Massive Johnson.
    Osborne is hardly a paragon of feminism himself (remember The Email, most of which was just a helpful, if cringily sophomorically written, collation of Gideon’s Greatest Hits from Popbitch?).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    Electronic messages sent by Scotland’s clinical director, who led the country’s fight against Covid, have been destroyed and cannot be handed to official inquiries, it can be revealed.

    Professor Jason Leitch deleted all of his WhatsApp communications every day, which meant there were none left to preserve when a “do not destroy” notice was issued by the UK Covid-19 inquiry.

    Scottish ministers were castigated for failing to hand over messages to the hearing and were warned that they risked breaking the law by failing to retain records.

    The inquiry was told that none of the private messages written during the pandemic by Nicola Sturgeon, then the first minister, or her health or finances ministers had been disclosed.

    The deletion of Leitch’s messages is likely to fuel concerns that the Scottish government will avoid full scrutiny at the inquiry.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jason-leitch-deleted-whatsapp-messages-every-day-during-covid-pandemic-ffwb3thdg

    ...always delete your bowsing history....
    Doesn't work.

    Also iCloud photos is where the real danger is, as a modest chap found out during his first marriage.
    May I gently suggest a two stage process:
    1. Don’t do stuff that you wouldn’t want to be seen.
    2. If you do don’t take a f****** picture of it.
  • Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    The IRA was once a popular cause in parts of the United States.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yes, according to the Yougov analysis they sound very similar to those sticking with the Conservatives at the moment. Focusing on persuading them to vote, however unenthusiastically, is surely going to be the top Tory priority. Their age and demographics indicate that they are people more likely to vote than most so it is not impossible.

    I think that this is a point that Mike has made a few times over recent months in the context of the Labour lead. It looks like he was spot on.
    Though in the pollsters that do assign the DKs to their former vote, the Lab lead is still decisive and formidable.

    The DKs aren't going to save Sunaks bacon.
    They may well save a large rump of Tory seats though. They are the best chance of 250+ Tories in the next Parliament.
    We know that in nearly every poll on nearly every subject more females outnumber males by 2 to 1 as DKs. Whether this is open mindedness or indecisiveness is also a don't know, but they do vote at the same rate as the males in the end.

    Females are however a demographic that leans Labour, and aren't turned on by Culture War issues, for example more tolerant on immigration or Trans issues, and also more pro-education, pro-NHS and pro-environment. They are more Centrist, and more likely to be alienated than reassured by current Tory campaigning on Culture War.
    I think what Yougov have identified is a substantial subset of females generally being older, financially secure, more small c conservative etc. They have been the backbone of the Tory vote since at least 2010 and arguably a lot earlier. Their disaffection is why the government is in such dire straits.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    edited October 2023
    On the topic of mystery voters, the gap between pollsters on the minor parties remains extreme.

    To take the last 3 as an example:

    YouGov has Refuk on 9% (yeah right) and Green on 5%

    Ipsos has Greens on 9% (hmm…). Annoyingly their headline doesn’t quote Ref who are within other 11% implying a medium to lowish score after deducting presumably at least 4% for SNP + PC and 1% for UKIP / random others.

    And Savanta gives Ref and Green a measly 5% and 3% respectively.

  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Surely you must realise that supporting Palestine is not the same as supporting Hamas?

    Just as supporting Israel is not the same as supporting starving Gaza of fuel, food and water so that hospitals are at the point of switching off life support systems for babies.

    People are capable of nuance, even if you are not.
    When those people condemn what happened in Israel on 7/10, then they're in a position to talk.

    I didn't support Israeli foreign policy before 7/10, nor do I want them to flatten Gaza now. That doesn't prevent me from calling out 7/10 as a terrorist atrocity. The inability of so many pro-Palestinian voices to do so now speaks volumes.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    The IRA was once a popular cause in parts of the United States.
    Still is afaia. 7th-gen O’Whatevers in Boston and Chicago see it as a way to assert their tenuous ethnic identity, despite the fact that modern Ireland would be alien to them.
    :
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    Much as they are charming and fairly benign I think the government is probably right not to reintroduce howler monkeys to the UK.
    This government certainly isn't charming and it's hard to argue it's even slightly benign.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    kyf_100 said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Surely you must realise that supporting Palestine is not the same as supporting Hamas?

    Just as supporting Israel is not the same as supporting starving Gaza of fuel, food and water so that hospitals are at the point of switching off life support systems for babies.

    People are capable of nuance, even if you are not.
    When those people condemn what happened in Israel on 7/10, then they're in a position to talk.

    I didn't support Israeli foreign policy before 7/10, nor do I want them to flatten Gaza now. That doesn't prevent me from calling out 7/10 as a terrorist atrocity. The inability of so many pro-Palestinian voices to do so now speaks volumes.
    This is the thing isn’t it. Most of the pro Palestinian voices seem to have zero sympathy for Israelis, absolutely zero. I can understand the importance of supporting what has been a marginalised and bullied population for decades, and of keeping a very beady eye on the IDF who have a history of rather cavalier approaches to civilian life. But people need to understand what Israelis (and Jews worldwide) face and have faced for centuries.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945
    edited October 2023
    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Surely you must realise that supporting Palestine is not the same as supporting Hamas?

    Just as supporting Israel is not the same as supporting starving Gaza of fuel, food and water so that hospitals are at the point of switching off life support systems for babies.

    People are capable of nuance, even if you are not.
    When those people condemn what happened in Israel on 7/10, then they're in a position to talk.

    I didn't support Israeli foreign policy before 7/10, nor do I want them to flatten Gaza now. That doesn't prevent me from calling out 7/10 as a terrorist atrocity. The inability of so many pro-Palestinian voices to do so now speaks volumes.
    This is the thing isn’t it. Most of the pro Palestinian voices seem to have zero sympathy for Israelis, absolutely zero. I can understand the importance of supporting what has been a marginalised and bullied population for decades, and of keeping a very beady eye on the IDF who have a history of rather cavalier approaches to civilian life. But people need to understand what Israelis (and Jews worldwide) face and have faced for centuries.
    This is unfortunately the case. I have Jewish friends in London who have no connection to Israel (beyond being Jewish) who are in fear of dropping their kids off at school, or wearing their kippah in public.

    Antisemitism has always been a nasty blemish, a blemish that at one point led to industrial mass murder. And whether you agree or disagree with Israeli foreign policy, it's no excuse for what's happening at the moment.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,671
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Surely you must realise that supporting Palestine is not the same as supporting Hamas?

    Just as supporting Israel is not the same as supporting starving Gaza of fuel, food and water so that hospitals are at the point of switching off life support systems for babies.

    People are capable of nuance, even if you are not.
    I was really put off by the number of PBers who saw the Hamas attack as a justification for the displacement of millions of people and the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians.

    In the face of that, it is easy to fall into a tribal back-and-forth, which, at least in part, explains why those upholding the pro-Palestinian/Gazan position have been so uncompromising in their opposition to Israel. I found myself explaning away the use of the word "jihad" a few days ago - something I regret now.

    Similarly, In the face of a massive terror attack of unimaginable cruelty, it is tempting to be entirely uncompromising in your response.

    Politics in the Middle East is complex and provocative, shock.
  • sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 194
    I think it was in Tamworth, not Mid Beds, people in the street interviewed after the poll. After two or three said they switched, an elderly woman. "Um...rather disappointed the Conservatives didn't get in".
    I'd have said what about partygate, Pincher, Bone? Perhaps she'd never heard of them and wasn't bothered about the cost of living. Didn't sound particularly well off.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Surely you must realise that supporting Palestine is not the same as supporting Hamas?

    Just as supporting Israel is not the same as supporting starving Gaza of fuel, food and water so that hospitals are at the point of switching off life support systems for babies.

    People are capable of nuance, even if you are not.
    I was really put off by the number of PBers who saw the Hamas attack as a justification for the displacement of millions of people and the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians.

    In the face of that, it is easy to fall into a tribal back-and-forth, which, at least in part, explains why those upholding the pro-Palestinian/Gazan position have been so uncompromising in their opposition to Israel. I found myself explaning away the use of the word "jihad" a few days ago - something I regret now.

    Similarly, In the face of a massive terror attack of unimaginable cruelty, it is tempting to be entirely uncompromising in your response.

    Politics in the Middle East is complex and provocative, shock.
    "... as a justification for the displacement of millions of people and the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians. "

    That's a valid position to hold. But the issue with it is this: what would you have Israel do? It's fine saying they should not respond in a way like this, but what is your *better* and *realistic* option for them to do, given Hamas's actions and desires?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    sbjme19 said:

    I think it was in Tamworth, not Mid Beds, people in the street interviewed after the poll. After two or three said they switched, an elderly woman. "Um...rather disappointed the Conservatives didn't get in".
    I'd have said what about partygate, Pincher, Bone? Perhaps she'd never heard of them and wasn't bothered about the cost of living. Didn't sound particularly well off.

    Says a lot about Pincher's lack of visibility if she'd never heard of him...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592

    Good morning, everyone.

    FPT Mr. B, saw your Twitter post on how many times teams have had the plank checked (random):
    https://twitter.com/wearetherace/status/1717528247896850848

    Unlucky for Mercedes and Ferrari, but that's the nature of randomness.

    I very much doubt it's random. If it is random, there should be a very clear procedure on exactly *how* the randomness is generated and the cars selected. If it's someone deciding at the circuit, you'll get biases.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    A bizarre story:

    Tamworth couple charged £11k for gas after 18 years with no bill
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-67232057

    But - why didn't they just sign up with another supplier straight away? That should have terminated any other agreement and if not, would have given them a credit to draw on.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    TimS said:

    Heathener said:

    @TSE my good Surrey friend is a neat example of the 2019 demographic. Homeowner, non-degree educated, female.

    She has just now said she won't vote Conservative next time. But she would vote Boris.

    They loved Boris. And Boris ain't on the ticket. They're lost to the tories: they aren't coming back.

    I know a couple of people who would be the opposite of this. They detested Boris with a passion and broke the habit of a lifetime to vote Lib Dem in local elections, but (though I’ve not checked for sure) seem much more comfortable with Sunak’s for all his lack of charisma. I expect they’ll come home to Tory in the next election.

    The difference is perhaps degree vs non degree educated. The latter saw through his schtick.
    Posh people do such a good job of segregating themselves in this country that plenty of normal people never really encounter them, and so found Boris Johnson a kind of charming, hilarious, character. University is one of the few places where posh and normal people mix - although even then posh people carve out their own segregated spaces - and so university-educated normals have a kind of inoculation against people like Boris Johnson that lasts for a lifetime.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    edited October 2023
    I posted the other day that one of the more significant aspects of the Israel vs multiple parties conflict to watch for in the coming days was the US setting down a marker to others to back off.

    Im not sure the overnight strikes were a sufficient marker, its more likely to put the US on an escalation ladder due to the lack of deterrence value of that effort.

    We will soon see.

    Meanwhile a senior Hamas official has expressed disappointment at Hizbollahs efforts in opening a second front. Hizbollah has its own motivations and its own reasons not to have gone all in, either so far or indeed at all, not least the damage to itself that it will bring. Hamas is disposable to Iran, Hizbollah is not.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    ydoethur said:

    A bizarre story:

    Tamworth couple charged £11k for gas after 18 years with no bill
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-67232057

    But - why didn't they just sign up with another supplier straight away? That should have terminated any other agreement and if not, would have given them a credit to draw on.

    Same couple here.

    Clearly "mad for it", and they probably can only afford the one set of clothes given the gas bill

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/postmen-threatened-to-stop-delivering-to-couples-home-over-claims-their-cat-was-clawing-at-their-fingers-through-the-letterbox/ar-AA1h3tXL
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    Yokes said:

    I posted the other day that one of the more significant aspects of the Israel vs multiple parties conflict to watch for in the coming days was the US setting down a marker to others to back off.

    Im not sure the overnight strikes were a sufficient marker, its more likely to put the US on an escalation ladder due to the lack of deterrence value of that effort.

    We will soon see.

    Meanwhile a senior Hamas official has expressed disappointment at Hizbollahs efforts in opening a second front. Hizbollah has its own motivations and its own reasons not to have gone all in either so far or indeed at all, not least the damage to itself that it will bring. Hamas is disposable to Iran, Hizbollah is not.

    IANAE but that last paragraph seems to be the consensus view of those who are experts.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    ydoethur said:

    sbjme19 said:

    I think it was in Tamworth, not Mid Beds, people in the street interviewed after the poll. After two or three said they switched, an elderly woman. "Um...rather disappointed the Conservatives didn't get in".
    I'd have said what about partygate, Pincher, Bone? Perhaps she'd never heard of them and wasn't bothered about the cost of living. Didn't sound particularly well off.

    Says a lot about Pincher's lack of visibility if she'd never heard of him...
    Not sure I had ever heard of Pincher before he got himself into trouble. Treasurer of the Household is not exactly a high profile position. Indeed, I have no idea what the holder does or is responsible for.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,784
    ydoethur said:

    A bizarre story:

    Tamworth couple charged £11k for gas after 18 years with no bill
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-67232057

    But - why didn't they just sign up with another supplier straight away? That should have terminated any other agreement and if not, would have given them a credit to draw on.

    I had something similar happen to me with an Oyster card. It was failing to auto top up, unbeknownst to me, and somehow racked up a negative balance of over £900. Luckily TfL recognised the fault was at their end and I didn't have to pay, so for me it had a happy ending. I expect with press interest and/or the intervention of a lawyer this bill will disappear.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited October 2023
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    sbjme19 said:

    I think it was in Tamworth, not Mid Beds, people in the street interviewed after the poll. After two or three said they switched, an elderly woman. "Um...rather disappointed the Conservatives didn't get in".
    I'd have said what about partygate, Pincher, Bone? Perhaps she'd never heard of them and wasn't bothered about the cost of living. Didn't sound particularly well off.

    Says a lot about Pincher's lack of visibility if she'd never heard of him...
    Not sure I had ever heard of Pincher before he got himself into trouble. Treasurer of the Household is not exactly a high profile position. Indeed, I have no idea what the holder does or is responsible for.
    The suggestion was her disappointment might be because she hadn't heard of Pincher.

    In Tamworth.

    He was the MP for Tamworth...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    sbjme19 said:

    I think it was in Tamworth, not Mid Beds, people in the street interviewed after the poll. After two or three said they switched, an elderly woman. "Um...rather disappointed the Conservatives didn't get in".
    I'd have said what about partygate, Pincher, Bone? Perhaps she'd never heard of them and wasn't bothered about the cost of living. Didn't sound particularly well off.

    Says a lot about Pincher's lack of visibility if she'd never heard of him...
    Not sure I had ever heard of Pincher before he got himself into trouble. Treasurer of the Household is not exactly a high profile position. Indeed, I have no idea what the holder does or is responsible for.
    The suggestion was her disappointment might be because she hadn't heard of Pincher.

    In Tamworth.

    He was the MP for Tamworth...
    Ah.
  • ydoethur said:

    A bizarre story:

    Tamworth couple charged £11k for gas after 18 years with no bill
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-67232057

    But - why didn't they just sign up with another supplier straight away? That should have terminated any other agreement and if not, would have given them a credit to draw on.

    Yes, their position is absurd. When we moved into this place there was no information about who had been supplying electricity and water in the former bank. So I found a supplier I wanted to use, gave them the information and set them off tracing the supply.

    Took about two weeks and that was that. Would occasionally get communication from the previous supplier, but that was trying to switch me back (onto their outrageous continuity rate).

    You can't take supply of something for 18 years and just assume you don't need to pay.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    Foxy said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Surely you must realise that supporting Palestine is not the same as supporting Hamas?

    Just as supporting Israel is not the same as supporting starving Gaza of fuel, food and water so that hospitals are at the point of switching off life support systems for babies.

    People are capable of nuance, even if you are not.
    When those people condemn what happened in Israel on 7/10, then they're in a position to talk.

    I didn't support Israeli foreign policy before 7/10, nor do I want them to flatten Gaza now. That doesn't prevent me from calling out 7/10 as a terrorist atrocity. The inability of so many pro-Palestinian voices to do so now speaks volumes.
    Sure there are some amongst the Pro-Palestinian protestors who are unwilling to condemn Hamas crimes, but there are Pro-Israeli voices (including some here) who support war crimes against Gaza civilians. Neither represents majority opinion.

    Also unhelpful is labelling people on either side of the debate anti-semites or islamophobes for reasonably held viewpoints. Not every Israel supporter is Tommy Robinson or Nick Griffin and not every Palestine supporter is a raging Jew Hater. It would be nice for calmer heads to prevail but with the upcoming assault on Gaza it will only get worse.

    I was labelled a Putin apologist for not wanting to see UK troops deployed to Ukraine by some bampot.

    Some debates are pointless as the extremes drown out any rational discussion.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    edited October 2023

    ydoethur said:

    A bizarre story:

    Tamworth couple charged £11k for gas after 18 years with no bill
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-67232057

    But - why didn't they just sign up with another supplier straight away? That should have terminated any other agreement and if not, would have given them a credit to draw on.

    Yes, their position is absurd. When we moved into this place there was no information about who had been supplying electricity and water in the former bank. So I found a supplier I wanted to use, gave them the information and set them off tracing the supply.

    Took about two weeks and that was that. Would occasionally get communication from the previous supplier, but that was trying to switch me back (onto their outrageous continuity rate).

    You can't take supply of something for 18 years and just assume you don't need to pay.
    I would have thought that you could outwith the limitation period. I think that is 6 years in England, it is 5 years in Scotland. So that’s their bill more than halved already.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/extinct

    "A species of animal or plant that is extinct no longer has any living members, either in the world or in a particular place.

    It is 250 years since the wolf became extinct in Britain."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    carnforth said:

    ydoethur said:

    This morning’s howler:

    The government said it was focused on habitat restoration and pollution.

    Reintroducing extinct species 'not a priority'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67230751

    Four options:

    1) The government are stupid;

    2) The government need better proof readers;

    3) The BBC need better proof readers;

    4) The BBC have given up reporting facts and are trying to make the government look stupid, or at least, even more stupid.

    Disturbingly, I honestly don’t know which one it is.

    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/extinct

    "A species of animal or plant that is extinct no longer has any living members, either in the world or in a particular place.

    It is 250 years since the wolf became extinct in Britain."
    So you're quite happy that they"re focussed instead on restoring habitats and polluting them?
  • TimS said:

    Heathener said:

    @TSE my good Surrey friend is a neat example of the 2019 demographic. Homeowner, non-degree educated, female.

    She has just now said she won't vote Conservative next time. But she would vote Boris.

    They loved Boris. And Boris ain't on the ticket. They're lost to the tories: they aren't coming back.

    I know a couple of people who would be the opposite of this. They detested Boris with a passion and broke the habit of a lifetime to vote Lib Dem in local elections, but (though I’ve not checked for sure) seem much more comfortable with Sunak’s for all his lack of charisma. I expect they’ll come home to Tory in the next election.

    The difference is perhaps degree vs non degree educated. The latter saw through his schtick.
    Posh people do such a good job of segregating themselves in this country that plenty of normal people never really encounter them, and so found Boris Johnson a kind of charming, hilarious, character. University is one of the few places where posh and normal people mix - although even then posh people carve out their own segregated spaces - and so university-educated normals have a kind of inoculation against people like Boris Johnson that lasts for a lifetime.
    Live in Edinburgh for a few years and you can see them in the wild. New Town bars particularly good..
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    The correct way to consider the data in the lead isn't in absolute terms, but by comparing the switchers with the stayers. On that basis the things that stand out are that the switchers are more likely to be female and of working age. The other differences are marginal.

    I'd have expected YouGov in its tweet to have understood that. The fact that the 'don't knows' tend to be older simply reflects the fact that former Tory voters in general are older, and is unremarkable. If anything the data suggests that the Tories are hanging on to older folks and losing everyone else - a trend for which there is a lot of anecdotal support.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yes, according to the Yougov analysis they sound very similar to those sticking with the Conservatives at the moment. Focusing on persuading them to vote, however unenthusiastically, is surely going to be the top Tory priority. Their age and demographics indicate that they are people more likely to vote than most so it is not impossible.

    I think that this is a point that Mike has made a few times over recent months in the context of the Labour lead. It looks like he was spot on.
    A fair proportion of those will be active abstentions. They won't be persuaded.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    edited October 2023
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    We’re they bothered about it before then ? It’s not something that has only just started to happen it’s being going on a while.

    The catholic minority in Scotland has always felt oppressed, historically for very good
    reasons. They have a natural empathy with other oppressed groups and that includes the Palestinians. So I think it’s fair to say that it has been there for a long time but I have never seen it go mainstream like this. It’s quite hard for an outsider to get their head around.

    Maybe @JackW can give a better historical perspective.
    The Most Oppressed People Ever, as Ruth Dudley Edwards puts it.

    Some people cling on to historic grievances, like a security blanket, decades after they’ve ceased to be relevant.
  • Yokes said:

    I posted the other day that one of the more significant aspects of the Israel vs multiple parties conflict to watch for in the coming days was the US setting down a marker to others to back off.

    Im not sure the overnight strikes were a sufficient marker, its more likely to put the US on an escalation ladder due to the lack of deterrence value of that effort.

    We will soon see.

    Meanwhile a senior Hamas official has expressed disappointment at Hizbollahs efforts in opening a second front. Hizbollah has its own motivations and its own reasons not to have gone all in, either so far or indeed at all, not least the damage to itself that it will bring. Hamas is disposable to Iran, Hizbollah is not.

    This is why I am not convinced by claims this was planned by Iran. Hezbollah has stayed out and Iran itself seemed slow to react after the 7th. It reminds me of the axis powers in ww2 when fascist Spain, largely created by Germany, stayed more-or-less neutral, and there was almost no coordination between Japan and Germany.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Yokes said:

    I posted the other day that one of the more significant aspects of the Israel vs multiple parties conflict to watch for in the coming days was the US setting down a marker to others to back off.

    Im not sure the overnight strikes were a sufficient marker, its more likely to put the US on an escalation ladder due to the lack of deterrence value of that effort.

    We will soon see.

    Meanwhile a senior Hamas official has expressed disappointment at Hizbollahs efforts in opening a second front. Hizbollah has its own motivations and its own reasons not to have gone all in, either so far or indeed at all, not least the damage to itself that it will bring. Hamas is disposable to Iran, Hizbollah is not.

    This is why I am not convinced by claims this was planned by Iran. Hezbollah has stayed out and Iran itself seemed slow to react after the 7th. It reminds me of the axis powers in ww2 when fascist Spain, largely created by Germany, stayed more-or-less neutral, and there was almost no coordination between Japan and Germany.
    In what way was 'fascist Spain' largely created by Germany?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Yes.

    ANC terrorist attacks often led to people on the streets of London and elsewhere supporting the ANC.
    Every US St Patrick's day parade during the Troubles.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Yes.

    ANC terrorist attacks often led to people on the streets of London and elsewhere supporting the ANC.
    Every US St Patrick's day parade during the Troubles.
    What struck me was people demonstrating against Israel, within hours of the attacks taking place on 7th October. The demonstrators were going out to celebrate.
  • Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    We’re they bothered about it before then ? It’s not something that has only just started to happen it’s being going on a while.

    The catholic minority in Scotland has always felt oppressed, historically for very good
    reasons. They have a natural empathy with other oppressed groups and that includes the Palestinians. So I think it’s fair to say that it has been there for a long time but I have never seen it go mainstream like this. It’s quite hard for an outsider to get their head around.

    Maybe @JackW can give a better historical perspective.
    The Most Oppressed People Ever, as Ruth Dudley Edwards puts it.

    Some people cling on to historic grievances, like a security blanket, decades after they’ve ceased to be relevant.
    Nothing like thousands of one’s fellow countrymen joyously bellowing out we’re up to our knees in Fenian blood every Saturday to refresh one’s sense of historic grievance.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    From time to time in Northern Ireland and Spain. Not all across the Western world though.
    A good friend of mine, who is an avid Celtic supporter, has been disgusted with the repeated mass displays of Palestine flags and scarves at Celtic matches since October 7th.
    We’re they bothered about it before then ? It’s not something that has only just started to happen it’s being going on a while.

    The catholic minority in Scotland has always felt oppressed, historically for very good
    reasons. They have a natural empathy with other oppressed groups and that includes the Palestinians. So I think it’s fair to say that it has been there for a long time but I have never seen it go mainstream like this. It’s quite hard for an outsider to get their head around.

    Maybe @JackW can give a better historical perspective.
    The Most Oppressed People Ever, as Ruth Dudley Edwards puts it.

    Some people cling on to historic grievances, like a security blanket, decades after they’ve ceased to be relevant.
    Nothing like thousands of one’s fellow countrymen joyously bellowing out we’re up to our knees in Fenian blood every Saturday to refresh one’s sense of historic grievance.
    Two cheeks, one arsehole.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    Good morning, everyone.

    FPT Mr. B, saw your Twitter post on how many times teams have had the plank checked (random):
    https://twitter.com/wearetherace/status/1717528247896850848

    Unlucky for Mercedes and Ferrari, but that's the nature of randomness.

    I very much doubt it's random. If it is random, there should be a very clear procedure on exactly *how* the randomness is generated and the cars selected. If it's someone deciding at the circuit, you'll get biases.
    The chances of its being random are non zero, but exceedingly small.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090

    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Surely you must realise that supporting Palestine is not the same as supporting Hamas?

    Just as supporting Israel is not the same as supporting starving Gaza of fuel, food and water so that hospitals are at the point of switching off life support systems for babies.

    People are capable of nuance, even if you are not.
    I was really put off by the number of PBers who saw the Hamas attack as a justification for the displacement of millions of people and the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians.

    In the face of that, it is easy to fall into a tribal back-and-forth, which, at least in part, explains why those upholding the pro-Palestinian/Gazan position have been so uncompromising in their opposition to Israel. I found myself explaning away the use of the word "jihad" a few days ago - something I regret now.

    Similarly, In the face of a massive terror attack of unimaginable cruelty, it is tempting to be entirely uncompromising in your response.

    Politics in the Middle East is complex and provocative, shock.
    "... as a justification for the displacement of millions of people and the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians. "

    That's a valid position to hold. But the issue with it is this: what would you have Israel do? It's fine saying they should not respond in a way like this, but what is your *better* and *realistic* option for them to do, given Hamas's actions and desires?
    Arguing for ethnic cleansing is repugnant. Pretending that it is Israel’s only option is not much better.

    The path to a long-term solution is not an easy one. There’s not some easy formula that can be dashed off in a PB post. However, it is possible for Israel to strike against Hamas hard without, say, preventing hospitals from working. Israel could take positive measures towards peace, like stopping illegal settlements, expelling from the Cabinet politicians who call for the destruction of Palestine (and who did so before 7 Oct), and committing to removing the blockade of Gaza in due course.

    Many terrorist groups and terrifying regimes have changed their ways. We found a resolution with the IRA. Bosnia is perhaps not a great success, but there is peace. One can look at the 1989 and 1991 Paris peace conferences on Cambodia.

    Prior Israeli governments did better at this. No, a comprehensive a solution had not be found, but the situation was better and peace closer. They show a better way existed and thus still exists.
  • Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yes, according to the Yougov analysis they sound very similar to those sticking with the Conservatives at the moment. Focusing on persuading them to vote, however unenthusiastically, is surely going to be the top Tory priority. Their age and demographics indicate that they are people more likely to vote than most so it is not impossible.

    I think that this is a point that Mike has made a few times over recent months in the context of the Labour lead. It looks like he was spot on.
    A fair proportion of those will be active abstentions. They won't be persuaded.
    Whilst it is good to see actual figures, I do not think many observers of politics will be surprised that relatively well-off women (probably grandmothers), living the affluent blue wall have fallen out of love with a party that shows little empathy and humanity, has overseen a catastrophic decline in public services, and created a cost of living crisis that is disproportionately hurting their children.

    Were I CCHQ, I wouldn't be holding my breath that these voters will be returning to the fold any time soon. On the other hand those 'warm and cuddly' LibDems might sense a big opportunity.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    I assume the Jordan ceasefire (non binding) proposal will be voted on in the UN late this evening as it's in New York ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    Those don’t knows sound like Tory voters to me.

    Yes, according to the Yougov analysis they sound very similar to those sticking with the Conservatives at the moment. Focusing on persuading them to vote, however unenthusiastically, is surely going to be the top Tory priority. Their age and demographics indicate that they are people more likely to vote than most so it is not impossible.

    I think that this is a point that Mike has made a few times over recent months in the context of the Labour lead. It looks like he was spot on.
    A fair proportion of those will be active abstentions. They won't be persuaded.
    Whilst it is good to see actual figures, I do not think many observers of politics will be surprised that relatively well-off women (probably grandmothers), living the affluent blue wall have fallen out of love with a party that shows little empathy and humanity, has overseen a catastrophic decline in public services, and created a cost of living crisis that is disproportionately hurting their children.

    Were I CCHQ, I wouldn't be holding my breath that these voters will be returning to the fold any time soon. On the other hand those 'warm and cuddly' LibDems might sense a big opportunity.
    Do people view the Lib Dem’s as “warm and cuddly.”
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,790
    I think reintroducing wolves in Westminster would be very popular with the public.

    But if they really want the electorate's approval then tigers would be the way to go.
  • Baroness Warsi is trending on TwiX after Question Time. From the clips I've seen, she seems a better speaker than many politicians although not having to toe the party line must help.

    “What we don’t have at the moment, between Hamas and Netanyahu, is that either party is a partner for peace”
    https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1717661322882765123

    “So we can’t put more money into nurse’s pockets… but we can put more money into really rich banker’s pockets”
    https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1717668511953146142

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Sean_F said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT: Has it ever happened before, that the response to a terrorist attack has been hundreds of thousands of protestors turning up across the Western world in support of the terrorists?

    Yes.

    ANC terrorist attacks often led to people on the streets of London and elsewhere supporting the ANC.
    Every US St Patrick's day parade during the Troubles.
    What struck me was people demonstrating against Israel, within hours of the attacks taking place on 7th October. The demonstrators were going out to celebrate.
    Yes, it's almost impossible to come to any other conclusion than the demonstrators supported the atrocities.

    Some - as with Hamas - will just deny utterly that civilians were targeted. One of their spokesmen was being interviewed yesterday, and simply refused to answer when pressed on that, as if he was offended by the very question.
This discussion has been closed.