An appeal to the moderators. Those of us who come on here to read about politics and other current affairs are being drowned out by two or three posters with an unhealthy and certainly unattractive blood lust who are simply using this site to revel in it.
Sure if posters have an understanding or a knowledge of the politics of the area or how it might affect domestic politics fine but otherwise just give it up. Many of us know people who it affects very directly from all sides and to read the thoughts of Jessop and co is just REALLY offensive. They wouldn't know a Jew if he tripped over one still less an Arab.
Fuck off Roger. Josiah Jessop is a thoroughly moderate poster.
I would just gently say to @Roger it is not correct to attempt to close down a poster/posters, and if the post is upsetting then move on
I have had a 'wee' bit better day today, even managing to cook a light tea for my dear wife as a change from the soup we have been having since I went into hospital. We have both lost our taste
Taking a day at a time but I would again reiterate that this is a very special forum and those running it and the moderators can be trusted to protect it without being asked
Glad to hear you’re improving Big G. Hope it continues.
An appeal to the moderators. Those of us who come on here to read about politics and other current affairs are being drowned out by two or three posters with an unhealthy and certainly unattractive blood lust who are simply using this site to revel in it.
Sure if posters have an understanding or a knowledge of the politics of the area or how it might affect domestic politics fine but otherwise just give it up. Many of us know people who it affects very directly from all sides and to read the thoughts of Jessop and co is just REALLY offensive. They wouldn't know a Jew if he tripped over one still less an Arab.
Get lost Roger. I am strongly opposed to what a lot of the people you are talking about believe but the answer is to argue the case with them not ban them or stop them from having their say. If you don't like the fact that people have different opinions to yours and hold them strongly then you really should go somewhere else.
This current crisis is going to affect people far beyond just Israel/Palestine and it is already perhaps affecting our politics so (IMHO) it is absolutely valid it is discussed. Some of us will continue to argue the corner for moderation in the Israeli response against those who are more hardline and that is the way to handle it, not banning or censoring people.
Thanks; I would also prefer mor moderation in the Israeli response. But I don't think that calling for one side to be 'moderate' when the other side still holds hostages, is still lobbing rockets over the border, and still wants the other side to be exterminated, is slightly odd.
Where is Hamas's moderation?
Hamas (and Hezbolah/Iran, who are not helping matters...) should immediately release all captives and stop missile attacks. Whilst they are still lobbing missiles, it is hard for me to see how Israel can be more moderate.
I suppose the difference for me is I see the Israelis as a democracy which believes in and adheres to the standards of the rest of the civilised world, even if under some Governments (such as the current administration) they act in a way far below what we would expect of them. So calls for moderation and adherence to accepted rules which they themselves have signed up to is a reasonable position to take.
The same does not apply to Hamas who are animals and who have shown throughout their history they are not interested in civilised behaviour either towards Israel or their own people.
Basically we expect responsible governments to behave responsibly. We do not expect the same of murderous rabble.
Yes, I can see and understand that viewpoint. The other day I mused about what would happen if Israel did not react externally to every stabbing, bombing or rocket attack; they could arrest the culprits, or shoot down missiles over/in their own territory, but do nothing that affected their neighbours. Basically, ignore the violence being inflicted upon them.
The problem with that is that it would not stop the stabbings, bombings and missile attacks. We would expect Israel to take a beating that could lead to its destruction, especially if we did not expect any other state to do the same.
IMV it all comes down to Hamas. How should Israel tackle Hamas? How can they deal with a government that wants them all dead?
I am always surprised that the civilised world has so taken against assassination. We would rather start a war and kill thousands of people - many of whom might have little or nothing to do with the reasons for the war (I am thinking for example of Iraqi conscripts in both Gulf Wars) - than work out a way to kill 1 or 2 or 100 people who really are the ones who should be dead. The Israelis used to be pretty good at this and it seems a far better way to deal with things than bombing cities and probably not actually geting the people responsible.
You mean that those at the top would rather start a war which killed thousands of 'little people' than set a pattern of killing people at the top such as themselves.
An appeal to the moderators. Those of us who come on here to read about politics and other current affairs are being drowned out by two or three posters with an unhealthy and certainly unattractive blood lust who are simply using this site to revel in it.
Sure if posters have an understanding or a knowledge of the politics of the area or how it might affect domestic politics fine but otherwise just give it up. Many of us know people who it affects very directly from all sides and to read the thoughts of Jessop and co is just REALLY offensive. They wouldn't know a Jew if he tripped over one still less an Arab.
Get lost Roger. I am strongly opposed to what a lot of the people you are talking about believe but the answer is to argue the case with them not ban them or stop them from having their say. If you don't like the fact that people have different opinions to yours and hold them strongly then you really should go somewhere else.
This current crisis is going to affect people far beyond just Israel/Palestine and it is already perhaps affecting our politics so (IMHO) it is absolutely valid it is discussed. Some of us will continue to argue the corner for moderation in the Israeli response against those who are more hardline and that is the way to handle it, not banning or censoring people.
Thanks; I would also prefer mor moderation in the Israeli response. But I don't think that calling for one side to be 'moderate' when the other side still holds hostages, is still lobbing rockets over the border, and still wants the other side to be exterminated, is slightly odd.
Where is Hamas's moderation?
Hamas (and Hezbolah/Iran, who are not helping matters...) should immediately release all captives and stop missile attacks. Whilst they are still lobbing missiles, it is hard for me to see how Israel can be more moderate.
I suppose the difference for me is I see the Israelis as a democracy which believes in and adheres to the standards of the rest of the civilised world, even if under some Governments (such as the current administration) they act in a way far below what we would expect of them. So calls for moderation and adherence to accepted rules which they themselves have signed up to is a reasonable position to take.
The same does not apply to Hamas who are animals and who have shown throughout their history they are not interested in civilised behaviour either towards Israel or their own people.
Basically we expect responsible governments to behave responsibly. We do not expect the same of murderous rabble.
Yes, I can see and understand that viewpoint. The other day I mused about what would happen if Israel did not react externally to every stabbing, bombing or rocket attack; they could arrest the culprits, or shoot down missiles over/in their own territory, but do nothing that affected their neighbours. Basically, ignore the violence being inflicted upon them.
The problem with that is that it would not stop the stabbings, bombings and missile attacks. We would expect Israel to take a beating that could lead to its destruction, especially if we did not expect any other state to do the same.
IMV it all comes down to Hamas. How should Israel tackle Hamas? How can they deal with a government that wants them all dead?
I am always surprised that the civilised world has so taken against assassination. We would rather start a war and kill thousands of people - many of whom might have little or nothing to do with the reasons for the war (I am thinking for example of Iraqi conscripts in both Gulf Wars) - than work out a way to kill 1 or 2 or 100 people who really are the ones who should be dead. The Israelis used to be pretty good at this and it seems a far better way to deal with things than bombing cities and probably not actually geting the people responsible.
I’m rather surprised they’ve not taken this route. Perhaps fear of reciprocation?
It seems pretty likely they will (and have certainly targeted so strikes on individual Hamas leaders already).
But from a political POV that's too long term and uncertain a project to be a public response to the Hamas atrocities.
There again, a ground invasion is yet more uncertain a project, and one with far poorer defined or achievable goals.
An appeal to the moderators. Those of us who come on here to read about politics and other current affairs are being drowned out by two or three posters with an unhealthy and certainly unattractive blood lust who are simply using this site to revel in it.
Sure if posters have an understanding or a knowledge of the politics of the area or how it might affect domestic politics fine but otherwise just give it up. Many of us know people who it affects very directly from all sides and to read the thoughts of Jessop and co is just REALLY offensive. They wouldn't know a Jew if he tripped over one still less an Arab.
Get lost Roger. I am strongly opposed to what a lot of the people you are talking about believe but the answer is to argue the case with them not ban them or stop them from having their say. If you don't like the fact that people have different opinions to yours and hold them strongly then you really should go somewhere else.
This current crisis is going to affect people far beyond just Israel/Palestine and it is already perhaps affecting our politics so (IMHO) it is absolutely valid it is discussed. Some of us will continue to argue the corner for moderation in the Israeli response against those who are more hardline and that is the way to handle it, not banning or censoring people.
Thanks; I would also prefer mor moderation in the Israeli response. But I don't think that calling for one side to be 'moderate' when the other side still holds hostages, is still lobbing rockets over the border, and still wants the other side to be exterminated, is slightly odd.
Where is Hamas's moderation?
Hamas (and Hezbolah/Iran, who are not helping matters...) should immediately release all captives and stop missile attacks. Whilst they are still lobbing missiles, it is hard for me to see how Israel can be more moderate.
I suppose the difference for me is I see the Israelis as a democracy which believes in and adheres to the standards of the rest of the civilised world, even if under some Governments (such as the current administration) they act in a way far below what we would expect of them. So calls for moderation and adherence to accepted rules which they themselves have signed up to is a reasonable position to take.
The same does not apply to Hamas who are animals and who have shown throughout their history they are not interested in civilised behaviour either towards Israel or their own people.
Basically we expect responsible governments to behave responsibly. We do not expect the same of murderous rabble.
Yes, I can see and understand that viewpoint. The other day I mused about what would happen if Israel did not react externally to every stabbing, bombing or rocket attack; they could arrest the culprits, or shoot down missiles over/in their own territory, but do nothing that affected their neighbours. Basically, ignore the violence being inflicted upon them.
The problem with that is that it would not stop the stabbings, bombings and missile attacks. We would expect Israel to take a beating that could lead to its destruction, especially if we did not expect any other state to do the same.
IMV it all comes down to Hamas. How should Israel tackle Hamas? How can they deal with a government that wants them all dead?
I am always surprised that the civilised world has so taken against assassination. We would rather start a war and kill thousands of people - many of whom might have little or nothing to do with the reasons for the war (I am thinking for example of Iraqi conscripts in both Gulf Wars) - than work out a way to kill 1 or 2 or 100 people who really are the ones who should be dead. The Israelis used to be pretty good at this and it seems a far better way to deal with things than bombing cities and probably not actually geting the people responsible.
I’m rather surprised they’ve not taken this route. Perhaps fear of reciprocation?
I just logged onto the tw@tters...the abuse Rachael Riley is getting it horrific.
Well let's all thank Mr Musk for his commitment to Free Speech, no matter how vile.
The only thing that could possibly be making the whole situation worse right now, would be a large group of highly partisan moderators on Twitter, deciding on a whim what’s acceptable and not, and shutting down accounts according to their own prejudices.
As promised, because I know the suspense was killing you all.
Delightful. And from here, my third Rkatsiteli on the balcony of our cottage at Mestvireni farm, after a lengthy tasting of various Qvevri wines plus peach brandy and chacha, in the middle of the Alazani valley in Eastern Georgia. The owner recently got kicked off Airbnb for refusing to receive Russian guests. Quite an accolade.
The twinkling lights in the distance are the foot of the Great Caucasus. By day you can see the whole snowcapped ridge across the horizon. On the left the peaks are in Chechnya, on the right in Dagestan.
Fabulous. Well jel
I love the exoticism of Georgia
And the khinkale! With white pepper!
Lots of them this evening. And those nice wrapped aubergines with walnuts. And, weirdly, “kakheti chicken salad” which was both delicious and identical to Coronation Chicken.
Have you tried their tarragon soups? Chikirtma? Chakateli?
I loved the food there. For a while I thought it was just khinkale and the bread things
Just considering the politics, if true that is a huge win for Biden and another blow to Netanyahu’s authority.
I'm not sure about huge win for Biden, it is definitely bad news for Netanyahu. First he lets Oct 7 happen on his watch, now "Mr Security" Bibi Netanyahu, after bloviaing about revenge, has to stand down his army? And Israel stares at him in disbelief
I predict he will be gone soon, possibly very soon
What does Israel get out of invading Gaza? I do not think they will get the destruction of Hamas in any conceivable result.
All they will probably achieve is stamping in a puddle - a lot of water goes everywhere. The puddle remains.
If Biden can take part of the credit for talking such an incursion down, then good for him.
AS @JosiasJessop says, Israel needs some firm reassurance that Oct 7 can never happen again, otherwise Israel itself is imperilled. Who will risk living within ten miles of Gaza or twenty, or thirty, if there is a tiny chance this could happen again?
Israel is such a small country those apparently modest areas of territory are of immense significance
Without "destroying Hamas" in Gaza Israel is left defeated and still existentially menaced
More thoughts from the armchair....
I'm probably right in thinking you have never visited any of Israel's neighbour or even Israel itself? Just non stop drivel. Why not go back to your tedious holiday snaps?
There is a strange belief that the right to protest means “effective protest” which in turn means causing enormous disruption and/or damage. And that the authorities must stand and wring their hands, helpless at said “effective protest”.
Something Significant appears to be ongoing tonight in Israel, Prime Minister Netanyahu is set to make a Statement sometime in the coming minutes and following that the Spokesman for the Israeli Defense Force will also make a Statement; both of these Statement will likely be in someway linked to the order released earlier by the IDF Homefront Command for Residents near the Gaza Strip.
IDF Homefront Command has just released an order for all Residents who have not Evacuated and are still near the Gaza Strip to remain near Bomb Shelters until further notice.
The only reason to advise people near Gaza to stay in their shelters is because something it going to happen in Gaza. And the Israelis are not stupid enough to nuke something in the immediate neighbourhood that would risk dropping fallout all over their own land.
My assumption is that the last few days have been shaping operations and that they will launch a land invasion after all. We shall see. The invasion itself might ironically be less damaging to civilian life than the bombing if people have already fled. But I expect it’ll be a military bloodbath.
I've been mulling over the issue of whether the people of a state should be held liable for that state's actions. I think I've decided that they should. I thought this about Putin's actions, but it's harder to really tie Hamas to the Palestinians en mass. Nonetheless I conclude that they should be held to account for their leaders actions even if they have a very weak influence on who those leaders should be.
"Held to account" is so bland and inoffensive. Yet in the real world what is happening is that following the slaughter of 7th October, "held to account" amounts to Palestinian children being slaughtered in response, to such an extent that they account for nearly a half of all deaths in Gaza.
Iran in fact could be the Achilles heel of political Islam eventually.
My Georgian interlocutors have reminded me that most of this country’s time under the Persian occupation was when that empire was Zoroastrian. That was the Persian national religion. Islam is a modern thing for them. The way things are going it seems not impossible that liberal Iranians could end up rejecting Islam itself. Seems far fetched, but such is their hatred of the Ayatollahs.
Yes that’s my positive reading too, after a couple of martinis (I’ve had one). Iran is Persia. It is a great and ancient civilisation above and beyond islam
They have a muscle memory of being a mighty power long before any imams. Hopefully that might allow them to throw off their baleful influence
Now in recent weeks I've asked why the former Sudeten Germans never fell into supporting terrorism and demanding the destruction of the Czech Republic.
A major reason being that the former Sudeten Germans have made successful lives in Bavaria and Wurttemberg.
Now that is something the Palestinians in Gaza are never going to be able to do for the simple reason that Gaza, which is geographically smaller than the Isle of Wight or Rutland, is never going to be able to economically support more than a small amount of its present (rapidly growing) population.
To have any sort of long term peace in the area the majority of the Gazan population needs to relocate.
Given that Saudi Arabia has commenced building some megalomaniac megacities nearby
Just considering the politics, if true that is a huge win for Biden and another blow to Netanyahu’s authority.
I'm not sure about huge win for Biden, it is definitely bad news for Netanyahu. First he lets Oct 7 happen on his watch, now "Mr Security" Bibi Netanyahu, after bloviaing about revenge, has to stand down his army? And Israel stares at him in disbelief
I predict he will be gone soon, possibly very soon
What does Israel get out of invading Gaza? I do not think they will get the destruction of Hamas in any conceivable result.
All they will probably achieve is stamping in a puddle - a lot of water goes everywhere. The puddle remains.
If Biden can take part of the credit for talking such an incursion down, then good for him.
AS @JosiasJessop says, Israel needs some firm reassurance that Oct 7 can never happen again, otherwise Israel itself is imperilled. Who will risk living within ten miles of Gaza or twenty, or thirty, if there is a tiny chance this could happen again?
Israel is such a small country those apparently modest areas of territory are of immense significance
Without "destroying Hamas" in Gaza Israel is left defeated and still existentially menaced
More thoughts from the armchair....
I'm probably right in thinking you have never visited any of Israel's neighbour or even Israel itself? Just non stop drivel. Why not go back to your tedious holiday snaps?
Ok. You asked
I have visited Israel maybe six or seven times over four decades. The earliest in the 1980s. The most recent a year or two before Covid. I have stayed in the Negev desert on a fundamentalist farm. I have dined with Israeli ministers. I have been to swingers clubs in tel aviv. I have stayed in the best suite in the King David Hotel
I’ve stayed on a kibbutz. I’ve walked around the Dead Sea. I once got trapped in no man’s land between eilat and Sinai (and was rescued from my predicament by kind Israeli AND Egyptian border guards). I’ve slept on Israeli beaches. I’ve been all over the West Bank from Bethlehem to Jericho - talking to Palestinians. I’ve stayed in Palestinian hotels and guest houses. I baptised myself in the garden of gethsemane - using Jordan water
As for Israel’s neighbours I’ve actually lived in Egypt. I’ve been all over Syria. I’ve spent weeks in Jordan from Petra to Amman (I once slept in an Amman car park). And in the Lebanon I’ve been from Byblos to Beirut to Baalbek several times, indeed I once got kidnapped by Hezbollah militants in machgarah who held me at gunpoint for a night even as the village was strafed and bombed by the Israeli army and air force
But no, apart from that, I have no experience of the region you stupid fat geriatric old fuck
Comments
NEW THREAD
But from a political POV that's too long term and uncertain a project to be a public response to the Hamas atrocities.
There again, a ground invasion is yet more uncertain a project, and one with far poorer defined or achievable goals.
Though they continue to whack Iranian scientists.
The GOP leadership was willing to accept a MAGA speaker and the Dem leadership was willing to accept a MAGA speaker.
Easier that way to pander to their bases rather than bother with any difficult bipartisanship.
I loved the food there. For a while I thought it was just khinkale and the bread things
But then I dug deeper…
I'm probably right in thinking you have never visited any of Israel's neighbour or even Israel itself? Just non stop drivel. Why not go back to your tedious holiday snaps?
There is a strange belief that the right to protest means “effective protest” which in turn means causing enormous disruption and/or damage. And that the authorities must stand and wring their hands, helpless at said “effective protest”.
They have a muscle memory of being a mighty power long before any imams. Hopefully that might allow them to throw off their baleful influence
A major reason being that the former Sudeten Germans have made successful lives in Bavaria and Wurttemberg.
Now that is something the Palestinians in Gaza are never going to be able to do for the simple reason that Gaza, which is geographically smaller than the Isle of Wight or Rutland, is never going to be able to economically support more than a small amount of its present (rapidly growing) population.
To have any sort of long term peace in the area the majority of the Gazan population needs to relocate.
Given that Saudi Arabia has commenced building some megalomaniac megacities nearby
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neom
perhaps they should offer to relocate the Gazan population.
Ok. You asked
I have visited Israel maybe six or seven times over four decades. The earliest in the 1980s. The most recent a year or two before Covid. I have stayed in the Negev desert on a fundamentalist farm. I have dined with Israeli ministers. I have been to swingers clubs in tel aviv. I have stayed in the best suite in the King David Hotel
I’ve stayed on a kibbutz. I’ve walked around the Dead Sea. I once got trapped in no man’s land between eilat and Sinai (and was rescued from my predicament by kind Israeli AND Egyptian border guards). I’ve slept on Israeli beaches. I’ve been all over the West Bank from Bethlehem to Jericho - talking to Palestinians. I’ve stayed in Palestinian hotels and guest houses. I baptised myself in the garden of gethsemane - using Jordan water
As for Israel’s neighbours I’ve actually lived in Egypt. I’ve been all over Syria. I’ve spent weeks in Jordan from Petra to Amman (I once slept in an Amman car park). And in the Lebanon I’ve been from Byblos to Beirut to Baalbek several times, indeed I once got kidnapped by Hezbollah militants in machgarah who held me at gunpoint for a night even as the village was strafed and bombed by the Israeli army and air force
But no, apart from that, I have no experience of the region you stupid fat geriatric old fuck