Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Mid Beds betting latest – politicalbetting.com

124

Comments

  • Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    "booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn."

    I do hope this is written with an ounce of self-awareness
    The interesting case study is Sunday Assembly- very consciously trying to do the good social bits of church without all that God stuff.

    Good on those who had the idea, and bless those who find it a blessing... But it has found developing a stable and broad appeal challenging.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    biggles said:

    Pagan2 said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    "booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn."

    I do hope this is written with an ounce of self-awareness
    All the morality you will ever need is contained in those items.
    can I be excused cricket and football please Sir?
    Only if you double up on the others.
    I can do double booze....
  • tlg86 said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    I might have mentioned this before, but when we did Israel-Palestine for A Level politics, our tutor asked us to rank all of the issues in play. I can’t remember them all, but water, land, Jerusalem were in there. I put religion as the hardest issue and didn’t think much of it as it seemed so blindingly obvious. My tutor was not impressed and insisted that religion was not a key part of the problem.
    Your tutor seems pretty ignorant then.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited October 2023
    nico679 said:

    Fascinating interview with a Jewish human rights activist on Newsnight .

    Talked about not wanting his country to lose its humanity , also thinks Netanyahu will be out in a few months , majority of those polled blame him .

    Also a very sad interview with a woman whose parents are being held hostage , both were peace activists .

    Newsnight really has been excellent in its coverage.

    I presume you are talking about Yariv Oppenheimer...he is about as far from an impartial commentator than you can get when it comes to Israeli politics and engagement with Palestine. He is part of the ultra-left.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited October 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    "booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn."

    I do hope this is written with an ounce of self-awareness
    All the morality you will ever need is contained in those items.
    can I be excused cricket and football please Sir?
    The first schism occurs.

    I remain an Orthodox Bigglestonian.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    "booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn."

    I do hope this is written with an ounce of self-awareness
    All the morality you will ever need is contained in those items.
    can I be excused cricket and football please Sir?
    The first schism occurs.

    I remain an Orthodox Bigglestonian.
    We don't regard schism as a bad thing generally. Christians, muslims and jews on the other hand are sects maniacs
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    "booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn."

    I do hope this is written with an ounce of self-awareness
    The interesting case study is Sunday Assembly- very consciously trying to do the good social bits of church without all that God stuff.

    Good on those who had the idea, and bless those who find it a blessing... But it has found developing a stable and broad appeal challenging.
    Yes, you really do need a grander connecting theme to manage that, without the God stuff, well, on paper it might still work and be nice but could feel a bit silly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    "booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn."

    I do hope this is written with an ounce of self-awareness
    All the morality you will ever need is contained in those items.
    can I be excused cricket and football please Sir?
    The first schism occurs.

    I remain an Orthodox Bigglestonian.
    We don't regard schism as a bad thing generally. Christians, muslims and jews on the other hand are sects maniacs
    Which people sometimes forget with the latter two, at least as compared to the first.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited October 2023

    nico679 said:

    Fascinating interview with a Jewish human rights activist on Newsnight .

    Talked about not wanting his country to lose its humanity , also thinks Netanyahu will be out in a few months , majority of those polled blame him .

    Also a very sad interview with a woman whose parents are being held hostage , both were peace activists .

    Newsnight really has been excellent in its coverage.

    I presume you are talking about Yariv Oppenheimer...he is about as far from an impartial commentator than you can get when it comes to Israeli politics and engagement with Palestine.
    I’ll have to read up on him . I just did a quick read , I don’t think he’s that controversial and wanting to remove illegal settlements is hardly that way out there given they’re illegal under countless UN resolutions.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    "booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn."

    I do hope this is written with an ounce of self-awareness
    All the morality you will ever need is contained in those items.
    can I be excused cricket and football please Sir?
    The first schism occurs.

    I remain an Orthodox Bigglestonian.
    And the church will stand firm under my leadership unless or until my wife reads that post and notices what’s missing. Thereafter I may be the first martyr.
  • nico679 said:

    Fascinating interview with a Jewish human rights activist on Newsnight .

    Talked about not wanting his country to lose its humanity , also thinks Netanyahu will be out in a few months , majority of those polled blame him .

    Also a very sad interview with a woman whose parents are being held hostage , both were peace activists .

    Newsnight really has been excellent in its coverage.

    I presume you are talking about Yariv Oppenheimer...he is about as far from an impartial commentator than you can get when it comes to Israeli politics and engagement with Palestine. He is part of the ultra-left.
    Are you suggesting that Oppenheimer might not be as explosive as first seems?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    edited October 2023
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    "booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn."

    I do hope this is written with an ounce of self-awareness
    All the morality you will ever need is contained in those items.
    can I be excused cricket and football please Sir?
    The first schism occurs.

    I remain an Orthodox Bigglestonian.
    We don't regard schism as a bad thing generally. Christians, muslims and jews on the other hand are sects maniacs
    Which people sometimes forget with the latter two, at least as compared to the first.

    I used to know a few Erisians...they had a saying "When not in doubt, get in doubt as soon as possible"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    It's "Imagine" as a manifesto. If I want moral lessons, they certainly won't be coming from John Lennon.
    Hmm ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction? Really...spanish inquisition, Matthew Hopkins, crusades, to name a few....thats ensuring passions don't go in the wrong direction?
    Well at least those events were interesting compared to the yawnfest of a humanist event, the average man on the street also needs something to control their passions and a moral code. That certainly isn't coming from humanism
    The uncontrolled passions and lack of a moral coded in Hamas obviously caused by their notable humanism.
    They would still be trying to get rid of Israel even if they were not Muslim
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited October 2023
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    Booze is responsible for more deaths in the UK today than is religion and plenty of crimes associated with extreme porn too, even football crowds can be trouble sometimes
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    A point on religion. Most that perpertrate horror in the name of religion are followers of monotheistic faiths not polytheistic. Maybe therefore its not faith thats the issue but monotheism which most have the ideology "there is no god but me"

    I am sure the Muslims and Christians facing attacks from the RSS extremists and BJP hardliners would disagree. As would those executed or crucified by the polytheistic Romans (including one JC) or those sacrificed with their hearts taken out and shown in front of their eyes before they were thrown down the pyramid by the polytheistic Aztecs
    The grim reality is that humans are pretty good at utter depravity without the encouragement of God or Gods. And it's at least possible that some religious cruelty is restrained a bit, but nowhere near enough, by realisations of Big Guys watching us from above.
    We're like trains, once we get on a certain track it's hard to go in another direction without a lot time, effort, or a derailment.
    Precisely the problem I mentioned. Polytheists lots of trains running parallel we can wave to each other through the windows. Monotheists....omg those are not real trains they should be on our train. We better derail it so they join us
    See WSB :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESXW7_LUlmc

    'Consider the impasse of the One God Universe'
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    Booze is responsible for more deaths in the UK today than is religion and plenty of crimes associated with extreme porn too, even football crowds can be trouble sometimes
    Weak sauce excuse. Most deaths from booze are self inflicted. Most rapes would occur whether porn exists or not. Don't think football has come anywhere near the deaths inflicted by your cult
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    ohnotnow said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    A point on religion. Most that perpertrate horror in the name of religion are followers of monotheistic faiths not polytheistic. Maybe therefore its not faith thats the issue but monotheism which most have the ideology "there is no god but me"

    I am sure the Muslims and Christians facing attacks from the RSS extremists and BJP hardliners would disagree. As would those executed or crucified by the polytheistic Romans (including one JC) or those sacrificed with their hearts taken out and shown in front of their eyes before they were thrown down the pyramid by the polytheistic Aztecs
    The grim reality is that humans are pretty good at utter depravity without the encouragement of God or Gods. And it's at least possible that some religious cruelty is restrained a bit, but nowhere near enough, by realisations of Big Guys watching us from above.
    We're like trains, once we get on a certain track it's hard to go in another direction without a lot time, effort, or a derailment.
    Precisely the problem I mentioned. Polytheists lots of trains running parallel we can wave to each other through the windows. Monotheists....omg those are not real trains they should be on our train. We better derail it so they join us
    See WSB :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESXW7_LUlmc

    'Consider the impasse of the One God Universe'
    There is a mountain called divinity, there are many routes to the summit
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Appropos of nothing, I notice a certain notable youtube channel about just getting an Elon machine already has reached over 20k views on a recent video. Not bad.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Pagan2 said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    A point on religion. Most that perpertrate horror in the name of religion are followers of monotheistic faiths not polytheistic. Maybe therefore its not faith thats the issue but monotheism which most have the ideology "there is no god but me"

    I am sure the Muslims and Christians facing attacks from the RSS extremists and BJP hardliners would disagree. As would those executed or crucified by the polytheistic Romans (including one JC) or those sacrificed with their hearts taken out and shown in front of their eyes before they were thrown down the pyramid by the polytheistic Aztecs
    The grim reality is that humans are pretty good at utter depravity without the encouragement of God or Gods. And it's at least possible that some religious cruelty is restrained a bit, but nowhere near enough, by realisations of Big Guys watching us from above.
    We're like trains, once we get on a certain track it's hard to go in another direction without a lot time, effort, or a derailment.
    Precisely the problem I mentioned. Polytheists lots of trains running parallel we can wave to each other through the windows. Monotheists....omg those are not real trains they should be on our train. We better derail it so they join us
    See WSB :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESXW7_LUlmc

    'Consider the impasse of the One God Universe'
    There is a mountain called divinity, there are many routes to the summit
    Oh, I hate exercise, I'll just hang around at base camp.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    A point on religion. Most that perpertrate horror in the name of religion are followers of monotheistic faiths not polytheistic. Maybe therefore its not faith thats the issue but monotheism which most have the ideology "there is no god but me"

    I am sure the Muslims and Christians facing attacks from the RSS extremists and BJP hardliners would disagree. As would those executed or crucified by the polytheistic Romans (including one JC) or those sacrificed with their hearts taken out and shown in front of their eyes before they were thrown down the pyramid by the polytheistic Aztecs
    The grim reality is that humans are pretty good at utter depravity without the encouragement of God or Gods. And it's at least possible that some religious cruelty is restrained a bit, but nowhere near enough, by realisations of Big Guys watching us from above.
    We're like trains, once we get on a certain track it's hard to go in another direction without a lot time, effort, or a derailment.
    Precisely the problem I mentioned. Polytheists lots of trains running parallel we can wave to each other through the windows. Monotheists....omg those are not real trains they should be on our train. We better derail it so they join us
    See WSB :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESXW7_LUlmc

    'Consider the impasse of the One God Universe'
    There is a mountain called divinity, there are many routes to the summit
    Oh, I hate exercise, I'll just hang around at base camp.
    Chuckles one of the routes is probably a funicular railway
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,277
    Gosh! The image of that murdered baby... What can you say ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited October 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    Booze is responsible for more deaths in the UK today than is religion and plenty of crimes associated with extreme porn too, even football crowds can be trouble sometimes
    Weak sauce excuse. Most deaths from booze are self inflicted. Most rapes would occur whether porn exists or not. Don't think football has come anywhere near the deaths inflicted by your cult
    Plenty of deaths from domestic violence or drink driving from booze today. Deaths still today from football hooliganism.

    The average number of deaths from Christianity or Judaism today however in the UK is near 0 but much of our law and western values come from Judaeo Christian origins, as do our foodbanks and of course many of our schools and universities have Christian origins too
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    A point on religion. Most that perpertrate horror in the name of religion are followers of monotheistic faiths not polytheistic. Maybe therefore its not faith thats the issue but monotheism which most have the ideology "there is no god but me"

    I am sure the Muslims and Christians facing attacks from the RSS extremists and BJP hardliners would disagree. As would those executed or crucified by the polytheistic Romans (including one JC) or those sacrificed with their hearts taken out and shown in front of their eyes before they were thrown down the pyramid by the polytheistic Aztecs
    The grim reality is that humans are pretty good at utter depravity without the encouragement of God or Gods. And it's at least possible that some religious cruelty is restrained a bit, but nowhere near enough, by realisations of Big Guys watching us from above.
    We're like trains, once we get on a certain track it's hard to go in another direction without a lot time, effort, or a derailment.
    Precisely the problem I mentioned. Polytheists lots of trains running parallel we can wave to each other through the windows. Monotheists....omg those are not real trains they should be on our train. We better derail it so they join us
    See WSB :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESXW7_LUlmc

    'Consider the impasse of the One God Universe'
    There is a mountain called divinity, there are many routes to the summit
    Oh, I hate exercise, I'll just hang around at base camp.
    Chuckles one of the routes is probably a funicular railway
    Or a pub crawl?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    Booze is responsible for more deaths in the UK today than is religion and plenty of crimes associated with extreme porn too, even football crowds can be trouble sometimes
    That maybe the case now but wasn’t just a relatively short time ago . The NI troubles are hardly a great advert for religion. You can argue many disputes are about land but they’re often underpinned by religion .
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    Booze is responsible for more deaths in the UK today than is religion and plenty of crimes associated with extreme porn too, even football crowds can be trouble sometimes
    That maybe the case now but wasn’t just a relatively short time ago . The NI troubles are hardly a great advert for religion. You can argue many disputes are about land but they’re often underpinned by religion .
    Even the NI troubles really originate from the plantations of James Ist not religion itself as such
  • Religions begin harmlessly as well-meaning attempts to answer impossible questions such as why are we here, how should we live? Different societies at different times come to different conclusions expressed in different ways, even though they start with the same question. But when creeds become dogmatic and oppressive, backed by force, they lose their status as philosophical enquiry and mutate into something much darker.

    My favourite homely analogy concerns a pair of goldfish in a bowl. Imagine one of the fish has a brain like Einstein and manages through persistent observation and analysis to work out that they are living in a glass sphere in an apartment on the 10th floor of a Manhattan skyscraper and their food is supplied daily by a family of kindly bipeds. Even though this intellectual colossus of a fish has come to the correct conclusion he still has two insurmountable problems: (a) how would he convey his insight to the other fish and (b) who made the bipeds?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    Booze is responsible for more deaths in the UK today than is religion and plenty of crimes associated with extreme porn too, even football crowds can be trouble sometimes
    Weak sauce excuse. Most deaths from booze are self inflicted. Most rapes would occur whether porn exists or not. Don't think football has come anywhere near the deaths inflicted by your cult
    Plenty of deaths from domestic violence or drink driving from booze today. Deaths still today from football hooliganism.

    The average number of deaths from Christianity or Judaism today in the UK is near 0 but much of our law and western values come from Judaeo Christian origins, as do our foodbanks and of course many of our schools and universities have Christian origins too
    How many deaths due to christianity throughout the years? Still plenty of deaths due to christianity now....count the deaths in excorisms conducted by churches. Counted the children ripped from their families due to satanic abuse panics
    or this https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/16/wieambilla-shootings-australia-christian-terrorist-attack-queensland-police

    or waco....they were christians

    maybe this https://news.yahoo.com/christian-terrorist-mowed-down-muslim-180540029.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIhOCv89XPXL3di91ZqMy8en5m0L9vVjAJZ7Y96LiYvJCgx3SjUZuFXlaJQcaN3kPpkuwu0DiTDIAUL12MnHagjLiAB3KHuLKDkE-wrdN0NFYNhyTDEGeu1h-cH74j7QZMmMNGEphFlQEOFvqGykCwFUkUQHAWk2zaXCDpVW7GVa

    just as examples
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    GIN1138 said:

    Gosh! The image of that murdered baby... What can you say ?

    You can add it to the list of murdered Jewish babies then say "Wait, that baby is just stabbed or shot, that is not proof of forty BEHEADED Jewish babies, this is all vile Zionist propaganda" etc etc etc

    You will not be alone. Many Islamist-apologists are doing this on TwitterX
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    I agree and whether you call it god, the universe, reality. We are all grasping our way towards the same thing. A higher meaning
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    edited October 2023
    The Sky News Paper Review tonight includes someone from Novara Media, which is a far-left, Corbyn-supporting organisation.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    It’s the Rowan Atkinson sketch thing isn’t it? Where, as the devil, he breaks it to
    the Christians that they backed the wrong horse and are going to hell.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Pagan2 said:

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    I agree and whether you call it god, the universe, reality. We are all grasping our way towards the same thing. A higher meaning
    The older I get the more I accept - sometimes with a strange reluctance - that there is a higher meaning. The universe is the opposite of purposeless, and consciousness is intimately entwined with its ulterior story
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    biggles said:

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    It’s the Rowan Atkinson sketch thing isn’t it? Where, as the devil, he breaks it to
    the Christians that they backed the wrong horse and are going to hell.
    It actually isn't because I personally don't believe there is a wrong way to seek. Merely different ways
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    Barnesian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mid Bedfordshire looks like the first genuinely 3 way by election for some time. Any of the Tories, Labour or LDs could win it

    My gut is saying the LDs will have lost momentum, its all about Labour right now.

    Batley was three way thanks to Galloway?
    What about the formidable LD by-election machine that was able to come from third place in North Shropshire and Tiverton & Honiton?
    I think the Lib Dems can only win from third place if Labour lets them. Labour haven't let them in mid Beds.

    Lib Dems were quick off the mark and odds on favourite to start with, but once Labour put the effort in it was clear to me that this was a hard slog for the Lib Dems.

    I hope the Lib Dems win but if they don't, and I don't think they will, I hope the Tories win. Not out of spite but to show Labour they can't just barge in without risk of giving it to the Tories.

    In practice, in the GE, there will be very few mid Beds. But there will be some like Wimbledon, where Lib Dems came second last time that Labour might be tempted to have a go. A loss to the Tories in mid Beds might deter them.
    Will any lessons be learnt if the Tories hold the seat with 29% of the vote? Maybe.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    P.S I never have understood the US evangelical love for Israel since Jews, by definition, deny that Christ was the Messiah or rose again.

    Jesus was himself a Jew originally
    "Originally"?

    When did he stop being one? 🤨
    When he became a scientologist obviously.

    Haven't you read any Hubbard?
    Genuine question, were any of his books any good?
    Genuine answer:

    No.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited October 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    biggles said:

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    It’s the Rowan Atkinson sketch thing isn’t it? Where, as the devil, he breaks it to
    the Christians that they backed the wrong horse and are going to hell.
    It actually isn't because I personally don't believe there is a wrong way to seek. Merely different ways
    Exactly - I mean that’s the point of the sketch. To highlight how silly it is to focus on your interpretation being the only correct one, not least because if you’re right that that’s the game then there’s a high chance you chose poorly.

    All joking aside I have no issue with faith. It’s prescriptive, organised religion that denies all the others that I hate.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited October 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    P.S I never have understood the US evangelical love for Israel since Jews, by definition, deny that Christ was the Messiah or rose again.

    Jesus was himself a Jew originally
    "Originally"?

    When did he stop being one? 🤨
    When he became a scientologist obviously.

    Haven't you read any Hubbard?
    Genuine question, were any of his books any good?
    Genuine answer:

    No.
    Isn't that why he had to pivot to pseudo-religion grift....plus the Brucey bonus of its being outside of tax system.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    I agree and whether you call it god, the universe, reality. We are all grasping our way towards the same thing. A higher meaning
    The older I get the more I accept - sometimes with a strange reluctance - that there is a higher meaning. The universe is the opposite of purposeless, and consciousness is intimately entwined with its ulterior story
    There was a book I read a long time ago, fiction but stuck in my mind because it made a sort of sense. The universe is sentient. It created conscious beings to learn. Each one of us that dies goes back to it taking a little knowledge back so it slowly learns about good, evil and everything.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    edited October 2023
    biggles said:

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    It’s the Rowan Atkinson sketch thing isn’t it? Where, as the devil, he breaks it to
    the Christians that they backed the wrong horse and are going to hell.
    Hang on...

    Doesn't he tell them that it was the Mormons who are going to heaven. And Mormons regard themselves as Christians.

    (I could, of course, be completely wrong.)

    Edit to add

    Nope, I was wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91DSNL1BEeY
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,711
    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    Thirty years war says 'hi'.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    I agree and whether you call it god, the universe, reality. We are all grasping our way towards the same thing. A higher meaning
    The older I get the more I accept - sometimes with a strange reluctance - that there is a higher meaning. The universe is the opposite of purposeless, and consciousness is intimately entwined with its ulterior story
    There was a book I read a long time ago, fiction but stuck in my mind because it made a sort of sense. The universe is sentient. It created conscious beings to learn. Each one of us that dies goes back to it taking a little knowledge back so it slowly learns about good, evil and everything.
    Take ayahuasca!

    (but only with an official ayahusquero approved billionaire in Majorca)

    It's incredible. It shows you exactly this. The great sea of consciousness in which we are all birthed and in which all drown, reabsorbed into the beautiful, fluent tide of a conscious universe
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,711
    Tweet of the day:

    Anand Menon
    @anandMenon1
    ·
    5h
    I hope someone is keeping count of the number of second order (at best) issues we're becoming obsessed by as conflict rages.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    Thirty years war says 'hi'.
    Mao says lol. Killed 50m in a few years of atheist crankery about sparrows

    Thirty Years War doesn't really compete
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    rcs1000 said:

    biggles said:

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    It’s the Rowan Atkinson sketch thing isn’t it? Where, as the devil, he breaks it to
    the Christians that they backed the wrong horse and are going to hell.
    Hang on...

    Doesn't he tell them that it was the Mormons who are going to heaven. And Mormons regard themselves as Christians.

    (I could, of course, be completely wrong.)
    Oh that could be right. Lodged in my head as something more obscure to hit the punchline, but they sort of were then in the UK.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    I agree and whether you call it god, the universe, reality. We are all grasping our way towards the same thing. A higher meaning
    The older I get the more I accept - sometimes with a strange reluctance - that there is a higher meaning. The universe is the opposite of purposeless, and consciousness is intimately entwined with its ulterior story
    There was a book I read a long time ago, fiction but stuck in my mind because it made a sort of sense. The universe is sentient. It created conscious beings to learn. Each one of us that dies goes back to it taking a little knowledge back so it slowly learns about good, evil and everything.
    Take ayahuasca!

    (but only with an official ayahusquero approved billionaire in Majorca)

    It's incredible. It shows you exactly this. The great sea of consciousness in which we are all birthed and in which all drown, reabsorbed into the beautiful, fluent tide of a conscious universe
    Plenty of lsd and psylocybin in my past much the same effect
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    Less than 24 hours before polling stations open in New Zealand.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Pagan2 said:

    @Pagan2 ’s train analogy is impressively apt.

    I am not religious, but I have never grasped why those who share a common belief in god - a huge, big, belief to share - are so certain that their belief in God is exactly right and the others’ belief in God is exactly wrong.

    I mean, it’s surely absolutely obvious that they are all interpretations of the same thing?

    I agree and whether you call it god, the universe, reality. We are all grasping our way towards the same thing. A higher meaning
    The older I get the more I accept - sometimes with a strange reluctance - that there is a higher meaning. The universe is the opposite of purposeless, and consciousness is intimately entwined with its ulterior story
    There was a book I read a long time ago, fiction but stuck in my mind because it made a sort of sense. The universe is sentient. It created conscious beings to learn. Each one of us that dies goes back to it taking a little knowledge back so it slowly learns about good, evil and everything.
    Take ayahuasca!

    (but only with an official ayahusquero approved billionaire in Majorca)

    It's incredible. It shows you exactly this. The great sea of consciousness in which we are all birthed and in which all drown, reabsorbed into the beautiful, fluent tide of a conscious universe
    Plenty of lsd and psylocybin in my past much the same effect
    Good man!

    (me too: LSD)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Andy_JS said:

    Less than 24 hours before polling stations open in New Zealand.

    And the Voice referendum in Australia
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    Religion is becoming less relevant in most of Western Europe . Mankind I don’t think is wired to believe in a God but wants a crutch to get through life . You could say mankind is wired to search for the “ meaning of life “ .

    Religion often fills the gap . I’m not judging people who are religious , if people take comfort and it helps them get through life then good on them .

    At this time a quite brilliant book by Victor Frankl comes to mind , it’s especially pertinent as he was a holocaust survivor .

    “Mans search for ultimate meaning “.

    Frankl went onto develop logotherapy. It really was an attempt to treat existential neurosis . I do believe that we do spend most of our life either finding crutches to get through life or continually trying to find meaning . Religion of course does play a role there.

    My issue with religion is how it’s been used by bad actors to oppress people and to commit some terrible acts of cruelty against others.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,711
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    Thirty years war says 'hi'.
    Mao says lol. Killed 50m in a few years of atheist crankery about sparrows

    Thirty Years War doesn't really compete
    "The Thirty Years’ War is thought to have claimed between 4 and 12 million lives. Around 450,000 people died in combat. Disease and famine took the lion’s share of the death toll. Estimates suggest that 20% of Europe’s people perished, with some areas seeing their population fall by as much as 60%.

    These figures are remarkably high, even by 17th century standards. By comparison, the First World War – including the post-armistice outbreak of Spanish Flu – claimed 5% of Europe’s population. The only comparable example was Soviet losses during the Second World War, which amounted to 12% of the USSR’s population. The Thirty Years’ War took an immense human toll, with significant, long-lasting impacts on marriage and birth rates."

    https://blogs.icrc.org/law-and-policy/2017/05/23/thirty-years-war-first-modern-war/#:~:text=The human toll,by as much as 60%.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    "Labour Supports WAR CRIMES
    Owen Jones"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RplJTbkaqoA
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    Thirty years war says 'hi'.
    Mao says lol. Killed 50m in a few years of atheist crankery about sparrows

    Thirty Years War doesn't really compete
    Mao didn't kill anyone in the name of atheism. He killed in the name of communism, get it right.

    And the communists killed for the same reason that theists have over the ages.

    The problem is an absolute and unquestioning belief in any authority, whether it be religious or party, and demand absolute devotion and loyalty.

    Trump is exactly the same.

    Anyone or anything that requires you to set aside your critical faculties in order to be 'faithful' is not worth following.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    It is, actually, really fucking shameful that the EPL and Wembley and the FA can't evem rustle up a Star of David for even ten minutes to show a bit of soldarity to the Jewish community in the UK

    Fuck them. Seventy eight weeks of Taking The Knee for a drugged up American felon who died because the American police are brutal and shit, but literally NOTHING for 1300 dead Jews in one day?

    Nothing? Nothing at all??

    Either you do performative political wank or you don't. This is why we told you: Don't do it. But Gareth Southgate knew better. Twat
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour Supports WAR CRIMES
    Owen Jones"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RplJTbkaqoA

    Does he still have a constituency with young folk?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    Booze is responsible for more deaths in the UK today than is religion and plenty of crimes associated with extreme porn too, even football crowds can be trouble sometimes
    Weak sauce excuse. Most deaths from booze are self inflicted. Most rapes would occur whether porn exists or not. Don't think football has come anywhere near the deaths inflicted by your cult
    Plenty of deaths from domestic violence or drink driving from booze today. Deaths still today from football hooliganism.

    The average number of deaths from Christianity or Judaism today in the UK is near 0 but much of our law and western values come from Judaeo Christian origins, as do our foodbanks and of course many of our schools and universities have Christian origins too
    How many deaths due to christianity throughout the years? Still plenty of deaths due to christianity now....count the deaths in excorisms conducted by churches. Counted the children ripped from their families due to satanic abuse panics
    or this https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/16/wieambilla-shootings-australia-christian-terrorist-attack-queensland-police

    or waco....they were christians

    maybe this https://news.yahoo.com/christian-terrorist-mowed-down-muslim-180540029.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIhOCv89XPXL3di91ZqMy8en5m0L9vVjAJZ7Y96LiYvJCgx3SjUZuFXlaJQcaN3kPpkuwu0DiTDIAUL12MnHagjLiAB3KHuLKDkE-wrdN0NFYNhyTDEGeu1h-cH74j7QZMmMNGEphFlQEOFvqGykCwFUkUQHAWk2zaXCDpVW7GVa

    just as examples
    Fewer than Nazism or Communism and not considering the deaths from the non Christian Roman and Aztec Empires etc. Exorcisms liberate the victim from the scourge of satanism. Waco were just a cult based around David Koresh.

    Percentage wise Satanist cults have also killed more than Christians
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    I know the main news is Israel/Gaza, but I'm still surprised by how little coverage the SNP defection is getting, (not on PB but in general).
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Leon said:

    It is, actually, really fucking shameful that the EPL and Wembley and the FA can't evem rustle up a Star of David for even ten minutes to show a bit of soldarity to the Jewish community in the UK

    Fuck them. Seventy eight weeks of Taking The Knee for a drugged up American felon who died because the American police are brutal and shit, but literally NOTHING for 1300 dead Jews in one day?

    Nothing? Nothing at all??

    Either you do performative political wank or you don't. This is why we told you: Don't do it. But Gareth Southgate knew better. Twat

    Spurs need to think quickly.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    Religion is becoming less relevant in most of Western Europe . Mankind I don’t think is wired to believe in a God but wants a crutch to get through life . You could say mankind is wired to search for the “ meaning of life “ .

    Religion often fills the gap . I’m not judging people who are religious , if people take comfort and it helps them get through life then good on them .

    At this time a quite brilliant book by Victor Frankl comes to mind , it’s especially pertinent as he was a holocaust survivor .

    “Mans search for ultimate meaning “.

    Frankl went onto develop logotherapy. It really was an attempt to treat existential neurosis . I do believe that we do spend most of our life either finding crutches to get through life or continually trying to find meaning . Religion of course does play a role there.

    My issue with religion is how it’s been used by bad actors to oppress people and to commit some terrible acts of cruelty against others.
    Which was the point I tried to make when I said call it God, the universe or reality. We are wired to look for a higher purpose. However we shouldn't get bothered by people using different paths to get there.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    There have been evil atheists.
    There have been evil theists.

    I don't think this should be a surprise to anyone because, guess what, there are a lot of bad people out there. Just look at Guido's site if you don't believe me.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    I don’t know a single person who is anti -Semitic but apparently by gobby in here if you’re pro Palestinian you must be a Jew hater .

    The debate becomes very polarized because some can’t accept that you can just simply want a two state solution where both Jews and Palestinians can live in peace .

    The whole cycle of violence is so depressing .

    How many fewer wars and conflicts would we have if we could abolish religion?
    True . Religion has a lot to answer for . If the whole world followed humanism we’d be in a much better place .
    Humanism? A dull, boring, 'we are the world' creed. Even Common Worship and 'Shine Jesus Shine' is more interesting with more depth.

    People need mystique. A Latin Mass or Evensong in a great cathedral or humanist readings in some dull hall? No contest.

    Even the Nuremberg rallies with the torches and fiery oratory would have been more interesting than a humanist event (hence why we need proper religion to ensure the passions don't go in the wrong direction)
    This is an extremely perceptive comment and deserves 12 "likes"
    Some of us have no god, and no need for a (I agree nonsense) “humanist” replacement. That’s because we have booze, cricket, booze, football, art, and porn.
    Booze is responsible for more deaths in the UK today than is religion and plenty of crimes associated with extreme porn too, even football crowds can be trouble sometimes
    Weak sauce excuse. Most deaths from booze are self inflicted. Most rapes would occur whether porn exists or not. Don't think football has come anywhere near the deaths inflicted by your cult
    Plenty of deaths from domestic violence or drink driving from booze today. Deaths still today from football hooliganism.

    The average number of deaths from Christianity or Judaism today in the UK is near 0 but much of our law and western values come from Judaeo Christian origins, as do our foodbanks and of course many of our schools and universities have Christian origins too
    How many deaths due to christianity throughout the years? Still plenty of deaths due to christianity now....count the deaths in excorisms conducted by churches. Counted the children ripped from their families due to satanic abuse panics
    or this https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/16/wieambilla-shootings-australia-christian-terrorist-attack-queensland-police

    or waco....they were christians

    maybe this https://news.yahoo.com/christian-terrorist-mowed-down-muslim-180540029.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIhOCv89XPXL3di91ZqMy8en5m0L9vVjAJZ7Y96LiYvJCgx3SjUZuFXlaJQcaN3kPpkuwu0DiTDIAUL12MnHagjLiAB3KHuLKDkE-wrdN0NFYNhyTDEGeu1h-cH74j7QZMmMNGEphFlQEOFvqGykCwFUkUQHAWk2zaXCDpVW7GVa

    just as examples
    Fewer than Nazism or Communism and not considering the deaths from the non Christian Roman and Aztec Empires etc. Exorcisms liberate the victim from the scourge of satanism. Waco were just a cult based around David Koresh.

    Percentage wise Satanist cults have also killed more than Christians
    You do realise satanism is a christian sect? No you probably don't. And frankly a lot of the reason they killed less people than nazism and communism is simply there were less people to kill back then
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,711
    Andy_JS said:

    "Labour Supports WAR CRIMES
    Owen Jones"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RplJTbkaqoA

    I see his cat had heard enough by about five minutes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Andy_JS said:

    I know the main news is Israel/Gaza, but I'm still surprised by how little coverage the SNP defection is getting, (not on PB but in general).

    If she had gone to Labour it would likely have got more
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    It is, actually, really fucking shameful that the EPL and Wembley and the FA can't evem rustle up a Star of David for even ten minutes to show a bit of soldarity to the Jewish community in the UK

    Fuck them. Seventy eight weeks of Taking The Knee for a drugged up American felon who died because the American police are brutal and shit, but literally NOTHING for 1300 dead Jews in one day?

    Nothing? Nothing at all??

    Either you do performative political wank or you don't. This is why we told you: Don't do it. But Gareth Southgate knew better. Twat

    Spurs need to think quickly.
    To my mind, there should be no politics in sport. Nothing. This is why we GO to sport, to get away from the wider world. That is the genius of sport

    But after the loser Southgate spent 26 months "Taking the Knee" for an obscure dead villain in America, killed by horrible American policing, now sport is politicised. So they have conjured this crisis for themselves. Idiots
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Leon asked: "Are you denying that anti-Semitism in America was an issue in the first half of the twentieth century? It was pretty fierce, at moments,"

    No, but equating it to anti-Semitism in Hitler's Germany -- as you came near to doing -- goes too far.

    As a political force, anti-Catholicism was more important. (And in Catholic-dominated cities such as Boston, there was both anti- and pro-Catholic discrimination. Businesses discriminated against Catholics; city governments discrimnated against Protestants.)

    Importantly, many of the arguments over birth control and abortion in the 1950s were between Catholics and Protestants. And some Protestant leaders openly worried that Catholics were out-breeding Protestants.

    (Here's some background, for those who know less than they should about these subjects:
    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/09/when-america-hated-catholics-213177/ )
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Pagan2 said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    Religion is becoming less relevant in most of Western Europe . Mankind I don’t think is wired to believe in a God but wants a crutch to get through life . You could say mankind is wired to search for the “ meaning of life “ .

    Religion often fills the gap . I’m not judging people who are religious , if people take comfort and it helps them get through life then good on them .

    At this time a quite brilliant book by Victor Frankl comes to mind , it’s especially pertinent as he was a holocaust survivor .

    “Mans search for ultimate meaning “.

    Frankl went onto develop logotherapy. It really was an attempt to treat existential neurosis . I do believe that we do spend most of our life either finding crutches to get through life or continually trying to find meaning . Religion of course does play a role there.

    My issue with religion is how it’s been used by bad actors to oppress people and to commit some terrible acts of cruelty against others.
    Which was the point I tried to make when I said call it God, the universe or reality. We are wired to look for a higher purpose. However we shouldn't get bothered by people using different paths to get there.
    As long as the path doesn’t harm others then I’m all for it .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    Religion is becoming less relevant in most of Western Europe . Mankind I don’t think is wired to believe in a God but wants a crutch to get through life . You could say mankind is wired to search for the “ meaning of life “ .

    Religion often fills the gap . I’m not judging people who are religious , if people take comfort and it helps them get through life then good on them .

    At this time a quite brilliant book by Victor Frankl comes to mind , it’s especially pertinent as he was a holocaust survivor .

    “Mans search for ultimate meaning “.

    Frankl went onto develop logotherapy. It really was an attempt to treat existential neurosis . I do believe that we do spend most of our life either finding crutches to get through life or continually trying to find meaning . Religion of course does play a role there.

    My issue with religion is how it’s been used by bad actors to oppress people and to commit some terrible acts of cruelty against others.
    And Western Europe is less relevant in global terms than it was 100 years ago. Then most of the world's Christians were in Europe, now they are in the Americas or Africa
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Is Piers Morgan a Labour person? He is very pro Starmer on QT
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    It is, actually, really fucking shameful that the EPL and Wembley and the FA can't evem rustle up a Star of David for even ten minutes to show a bit of soldarity to the Jewish community in the UK

    Fuck them. Seventy eight weeks of Taking The Knee for a drugged up American felon who died because the American police are brutal and shit, but literally NOTHING for 1300 dead Jews in one day?

    Nothing? Nothing at all??

    Either you do performative political wank or you don't. This is why we told you: Don't do it. But Gareth Southgate knew better. Twat

    Spurs need to think quickly.
    To my mind, there should be no politics in sport. Nothing. This is why we GO to sport, to get away from the wider world. That is the genius of sport

    But after the loser Southgate spent 26 months "Taking the Knee" for an obscure dead villain in America, killed by horrible American policing, now sport is politicised. So they have conjured this crisis for themselves. Idiots
    I agree, none of them should have been doing it, and this is why. But Spurs do have a specific issue.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited October 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    There have been evil atheists.
    There have been evil theists.

    I don't think this should be a surprise to anyone because, guess what, there are a lot of bad people out there. Just look at Guido's site if you don't believe me.

    Indeed.

    But the common denominator is the worst are those who demand unquestioning loyalty.

    Whether it be to the priests, the man in the sky, the man in orange with dodgy hair, the fuhrer, the party leader or anything else.

    Once you switch off thinking for yourself, then getting led to horrific places is that much easier.

    I don't need anyone to tell me whether burning children alive is or is not acceptable.
  • FPT
    TOPPING said:



    You have not yet answered my question Richard - does it appear to you that Israel are ignoring the relevant laws and treaties and whatnot. Does Gaza look to you as though Israel is indiscriminately targeting civilians.

    Apologies Mr T. It was my sons Speech Night tonight when he got his GCSEs so I have been out all evening.

    Two parts to my answer.

    At present I sadly have to say yes. It does not appear to me from the news that Israel is doing anything to avoid targetting civilians. Some of the areas of devestation inside Gaza are so large there is no way they cold be taking any steps to avoid civilian casualties. And of course they have history of this so it is no surprise.

    The more important question is whether their intent is to follow the path advised by Bart of this parish and level Gaza in their pursuit of Hamas, killing evryeone who is unable to get out of the way. I don't know the answer to this one yet as I don't know what the mindset is of the commanders on the ground. If they do then they are fools as well as war criminals because they will be doing exactly what Hamas wanted. As a number of posters said on the previous thread, Hamas don't care about the civilian ppulation in Gaza and my perception is that the more civilains who die the better for Hamas's cause in their eyes. They want a massive overreaction from Israel as it will destroy any chance of further peace advances for decades to come.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    It is, actually, really fucking shameful that the EPL and Wembley and the FA can't evem rustle up a Star of David for even ten minutes to show a bit of soldarity to the Jewish community in the UK

    Fuck them. Seventy eight weeks of Taking The Knee for a drugged up American felon who died because the American police are brutal and shit, but literally NOTHING for 1300 dead Jews in one day?

    Nothing? Nothing at all??

    Either you do performative political wank or you don't. This is why we told you: Don't do it. But Gareth Southgate knew better. Twat

    Spurs need to think quickly.
    To my mind, there should be no politics in sport. Nothing. This is why we GO to sport, to get away from the wider world. That is the genius of sport

    But after the loser Southgate spent 26 months "Taking the Knee" for an obscure dead villain in America, killed by horrible American policing, now sport is politicised. So they have conjured this crisis for themselves. Idiots
    I agree, none of them should have been doing it, and this is why. But Spurs do have a specific issue.
    And Arsenal. This is VERY North London. It is intensely disrespectful of the Jewish community that they show ZERO official sympathy

    Fine, if they never showed sympathy to anyone. But now? Grrrr
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    Religion is becoming less relevant in most of Western Europe . Mankind I don’t think is wired to believe in a God but wants a crutch to get through life . You could say mankind is wired to search for the “ meaning of life “ .

    Religion often fills the gap . I’m not judging people who are religious , if people take comfort and it helps them get through life then good on them .

    At this time a quite brilliant book by Victor Frankl comes to mind , it’s especially pertinent as he was a holocaust survivor .

    “Mans search for ultimate meaning “.

    Frankl went onto develop logotherapy. It really was an attempt to treat existential neurosis . I do believe that we do spend most of our life either finding crutches to get through life or continually trying to find meaning . Religion of course does play a role there.

    My issue with religion is how it’s been used by bad actors to oppress people and to commit some terrible acts of cruelty against others.
    And Western Europe is less relevant in global terms than it was 100 years ago. Then most of the world's Christians were in Europe, now they are in the Americas or Africa
    Europe is generally more peaceful now aswell . Hitler may well have been atheist but he did use the Jews as scapegoats. He had a warped belief system , you may not call it religion . Where does a belief system end and religion begin ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited October 2023

    Is Piers Morgan a Labour person? He is very pro Starmer on QT

    He is a very "New Labour" person. Back in the day very supportive of Blair.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    rcs1000 said:

    There have been evil atheists.
    There have been evil theists.

    I don't think this should be a surprise to anyone because, guess what, there are a lot of bad people out there. Just look at Guido's site if you don't believe me.

    Indeed.

    But the common denominator is the worst are those who demand unquestioning loyalty.

    Whether it be to the priests, the man in the sky, the man in orange with dodgy hair, the fuhrer, the party leader or anything else.

    Once you switch off thinking for yourself, then getting led to horrific places is that much easier.

    I don't need anyone to tell me whether burning children alive is or is not acceptable.
    Exactly.

    It's about nuance. And unless you know how the child has behaved, you have no idea whether they should be burned alive or not.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,277
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    It's interesting that as the numbers identifying as "religious" has declined the number of people identifying as "spiritual" has gone up...

    A lot (possibly the majority?) of people in this country now no longer believe there is a god from a certain religion controlling their destiny... Yet...

    The majority of them still believe they will "live on" in another universe/time/space after they die.

    They also believe they will see loved ones who have previously passed over and many of them would say they have experience of communicating with those deceased loved ones in this physical realm...

    At the end of the day, the human psyche needs to believe in... something?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    Barnesian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mid Bedfordshire looks like the first genuinely 3 way by election for some time. Any of the Tories, Labour or LDs could win it

    My gut is saying the LDs will have lost momentum, its all about Labour right now.

    Batley was three way thanks to Galloway?
    What about the formidable LD by-election machine that was able to come from third place in North Shropshire and Tiverton & Honiton?
    I think the Lib Dems can only win from third place if Labour lets them. Labour haven't let them in mid Beds.

    Lib Dems were quick off the mark and odds on favourite to start with, but once Labour put the effort in it was clear to me that this was a hard slog for the Lib Dems.

    I hope the Lib Dems win but if they don't, and I don't think they will, I hope the Tories win. Not out of spite but to show Labour they can't just barge in without risk of giving it to the Tories.

    In practice, in the GE, there will be very few mid Beds. But there will be some like Wimbledon, where Lib Dems came second last time that Labour might be tempted to have a go. A loss to the Tories in mid Beds might deter them.
    I'm not particularly anti-LD (not least as I'm in coalition with them), but my perception is that it was the LibDems that just barged in, when it was, as you say, unlikely that they'd win from 12.6% and third place. To barge in AND expect the second-placed party not to bother was just arrogant. That's the lesson that most people would draw, I think. But I think the position will be quite different where the LibDems are second.

    Anyway, we've not lost yet!
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,586

    Is Piers Morgan a Labour person? He is very pro Starmer on QT

    Well, he used to edit the Mirror.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    It's interesting that as the numbers identifying as "religious" has declined the number of people identifying as "spiritual" has gone up...

    A lot (possibly the majority?) of people in this country now no longer believe there is a god from a certain religion controlling their destiny... Yet...

    The majority of them still believe they will "live on" in another universe/time/space after they die.

    They also believe they will see loved ones who have previously passed over and many of them would say they have experience of communicating with those deceased loved ones in this physical realm...

    At the end of the day, the human psyche needs to believe in... something?
    It would be interesting to know if the spiritual + religous percentage was staying pretty much the same and it was merely a shifting of balance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    Is Piers Morgan a Labour person? He is very pro Starmer on QT

    He is a very "New Labour" person. Back in the day very supportive of Blair.
    Even more so of Brown, he was anti Iraq War and fell out with Blair after
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    The train tracks of atheism run directly to the gates of Auschwitz

    Sorry, but they do. The short history of atheism - Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro, arguably Hitler - is over-burdened with human corpses. Mankind is wired to believe, and we are better when that intrinsic need for faith attaches to a God who imposes a basic morality

    Religion is becoming less relevant in most of Western Europe . Mankind I don’t think is wired to believe in a God but wants a crutch to get through life . You could say mankind is wired to search for the “ meaning of life “ .

    Religion often fills the gap . I’m not judging people who are religious , if people take comfort and it helps them get through life then good on them .

    At this time a quite brilliant book by Victor Frankl comes to mind , it’s especially pertinent as he was a holocaust survivor .

    “Mans search for ultimate meaning “.

    Frankl went onto develop logotherapy. It really was an attempt to treat existential neurosis . I do believe that we do spend most of our life either finding crutches to get through life or continually trying to find meaning . Religion of course does play a role there.

    My issue with religion is how it’s been used by bad actors to oppress people and to commit some terrible acts of cruelty against others.
    And Western Europe is less relevant in global terms than it was 100 years ago. Then most of the world's Christians were in Europe, now they are in the Americas or Africa
    Europe is generally more peaceful now aswell . Hitler may well have been atheist but he did use the Jews as scapegoats. He had a warped belief system , you may not call it religion . Where does a belief system end and religion begin ?
    Zelensky may disagree
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    Has any media organisation ever travelled as far along the political spectrum as Sky News? It started out as populist centre-right channel and now it's woke/left-wing.
  • A question for the PB Brains trust.

    Rishi Sunak said today "“This is now the third deadliest terror attack in the world since 1970. The United Kingdom must and will continue to stand in solidarity with Israel.”

    I assume 9/11 is the deadliest but I am struggling to think of another terrorist attack that has killed more than 1200 people since 1970. What am I forgetting? Or is Sunak wrong?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Has any media organisation ever travelled as far along the political spectrum as Sky News? It started out as populist centre-right channel and now it's woke/left-wing.

    Spiked was formerly Living Marxism...now is anti-Brexit, free speech, anti-woke, centre-right.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Andy_JS said:

    Has any media organisation ever travelled as far along the political spectrum as Sky News? It started out as populist centre-right channel and now it's woke/left-wing.

    As GB News has taken much of its previous market by becoming the populist right TV channel
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    A question for the PB Brains trust.

    Rishi Sunak said today "“This is now the third deadliest terror attack in the world since 1970. The United Kingdom must and will continue to stand in solidarity with Israel.”

    I assume 9/11 is the deadliest but I am struggling to think of another terrorist attack that has killed more than 1200 people since 1970. What am I forgetting? Or is Sunak wrong?

    Has Sunak ever been right?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Andy_JS said:

    Has any media organisation ever travelled as far along the political spectrum as Sky News? It started out as populist centre-right channel and now it's woke/left-wing.

    If only it were neither. I swear there’s a gap in the market for just reading the sodding news.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    edited October 2023
    I'll repeat advice I have given before: If you want to understand American politics, you should read "The Last Hurrah". (Many literary types will prefer "All the King's Men", but "The Last Hurrah" is much better on American politics. Both, by the way, are based on real politicians.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Hurrah
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    A question for the PB Brains trust.

    Rishi Sunak said today "“This is now the third deadliest terror attack in the world since 1970. The United Kingdom must and will continue to stand in solidarity with Israel.”

    I assume 9/11 is the deadliest but I am struggling to think of another terrorist attack that has killed more than 1200 people since 1970. What am I forgetting? Or is Sunak wrong?

    Couldn’t be the Spanish metro could it? Sounds high though.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Has any media organisation ever travelled as far along the political spectrum as Sky News? It started out as populist centre-right channel and now it's woke/left-wing.

    As GB News has taken much of its previous market by becoming the populist right TV channel
    I don't think GB News has taken "much of its previous market".
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    biggles said:

    A question for the PB Brains trust.

    Rishi Sunak said today "“This is now the third deadliest terror attack in the world since 1970. The United Kingdom must and will continue to stand in solidarity with Israel.”

    I assume 9/11 is the deadliest but I am struggling to think of another terrorist attack that has killed more than 1200 people since 1970. What am I forgetting? Or is Sunak wrong?

    Couldn’t be the Spanish metro could it? Sounds high though.
    Oh, wait. Bali?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    edited October 2023
    Pagan2 said:

    A question for the PB Brains trust.

    Rishi Sunak said today "“This is now the third deadliest terror attack in the world since 1970. The United Kingdom must and will continue to stand in solidarity with Israel.”

    I assume 9/11 is the deadliest but I am struggling to think of another terrorist attack that has killed more than 1200 people since 1970. What am I forgetting? Or is Sunak wrong?

    Has Sunak ever been right?
    ISIL in Tikrit was about 2,000 people.

    Sunak is correct on this occasion.

    Edit to add: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Speicher_massacre
  • biggles said:

    A question for the PB Brains trust.

    Rishi Sunak said today "“This is now the third deadliest terror attack in the world since 1970. The United Kingdom must and will continue to stand in solidarity with Israel.”

    I assume 9/11 is the deadliest but I am struggling to think of another terrorist attack that has killed more than 1200 people since 1970. What am I forgetting? Or is Sunak wrong?

    Couldn’t be the Spanish metro could it? Sounds high though.
    They killed 193.

    Sorry this all sounds a bit ghoulish discussing numbers in this way but it just surprised me.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited October 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Has any media organisation ever travelled as far along the political spectrum as Sky News? It started out as populist centre-right channel and now it's woke/left-wing.

    It isn't remotely the same media organisation. They left go a massive chunk of their presenters / analysts / correspondents and under the new ownership of Comcast. The viewing figures not never been great, but its going rather badly.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    A question for the PB Brains trust.

    Rishi Sunak said today "“This is now the third deadliest terror attack in the world since 1970. The United Kingdom must and will continue to stand in solidarity with Israel.”

    I assume 9/11 is the deadliest but I am struggling to think of another terrorist attack that has killed more than 1200 people since 1970. What am I forgetting? Or is Sunak wrong?

    Has Sunak ever been right?
    ISIL in Tikrit was about 2,000 people.

    Sunak is correct on this occasion.

    Aha. Thanks. Sad that that has made such a small impact on the Western consciousness.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Andy_JS said:

    Has any media organisation ever travelled as far along the political spectrum as Sky News? It started out as populist centre-right channel and now it's woke/left-wing.

    It isn't remotely the same media organisation. They left go a massive chunk of their presenters / analysts / correspondents and under the new ownership of Comcast. The viewing figures not never been great, but its going rather badly.
    Tim Marshall is missed. Genuine expertise.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,074
    Andy_JS said:

    Has any media organisation ever travelled as far along the political spectrum as Sky News? It started out as populist centre-right channel and now it's woke/left-wing.

    Have you ever considered it might not be the landscape behind the train window that is moving, but the train itself?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    A question for the PB Brains trust.

    Rishi Sunak said today "“This is now the third deadliest terror attack in the world since 1970. The United Kingdom must and will continue to stand in solidarity with Israel.”

    I assume 9/11 is the deadliest but I am struggling to think of another terrorist attack that has killed more than 1200 people since 1970. What am I forgetting? Or is Sunak wrong?

    Has Sunak ever been right?
    ISIL in Tikrit was about 2,000 people.

    Sunak is correct on this occasion.

    Aha. Thanks. Sad that that has made such a small impact on the Western consciousness.
    These events don’t compute do they? Impossible to picture. Or maybe as a self defence mechanism we don’t want to.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    carnforth said:

    Is Piers Morgan a Labour person? He is very pro Starmer on QT

    Well, he used to edit the Mirror.
    That’s true. Was also Editor of the News of the Screws for a time though, not sure it really says much.
This discussion has been closed.