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A Fright at the Museum – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,144
edited September 2023 in General
imageA Fright at the Museum – politicalbetting.com

What on earth has been going on at the British Museum?

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,440
    edited August 2023
    I'm not worried about the British Museum, George Osborne (PBUH) is in charge and he'll work his magic.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,440
    edited August 2023
    FPT
    ydoethur said:

    Ratters said:

    Eabhal said:

    Oh ffs, the Spanish FA have managed to make FIFA look good

    If you're being suspended for ethical breaches by FIFA it's probably worth just disbanding as an organisation and starting from scratch.
    What equivalents can we think of?

    Being fired from the Cabinet for being incompetent?

    Being asked to leave the SNP for financial mismanagement?

    Being accused of bringing the courts into disrepute by Lord Denning?
    Being accused of being brash by me.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456
    edited August 2023
    Sack George Osborne, he’s as useless as Logan Sargeant in the wet.
  • FPT

    ydoethur said:

    Ratters said:

    Eabhal said:

    Oh ffs, the Spanish FA have managed to make FIFA look good

    If you're being suspended for ethical breaches by FIFA it's probably worth just disbanding as an organisation and starting from scratch.
    What equivalents can we think of?

    Being fired from the Cabinet for being incompetent?

    Being asked to leave the SNP for financial mismanagement?

    Being accused of bringing the courts into disrepute by Lord Denning?
    Being accused of having questionable taste in footwear by me.
    :innocent:
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    Sandpit said:

    Sack George Osborne, he’s as useless as Logan Sargeant in the wet.

    He could play Lord Southmere in a remake of One of Our Dinosaurs Is Missing.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,650

    I'm not worried about the British Museum, George Osborne (PBUH) is in charge and he'll work his magic.

    At least he can now claim to have shrunk the size of the estate.
  • YOU MY DUM DUM!

    image
  • I'm not worried about the British Museum, George Osborne (PBUH) is in charge and he'll work his magic.

    British Museum = World's Biggest Stolen Goods Warehouse*

    * and now they're having their stuff stolen too! LOL!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857
    edited August 2023

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    Ratters said:

    Eabhal said:

    Oh ffs, the Spanish FA have managed to make FIFA look good

    If you're being suspended for ethical breaches by FIFA it's probably worth just disbanding as an organisation and starting from scratch.
    What equivalents can we think of?

    Being fired from the Cabinet for being incompetent?

    Being asked to leave the SNP for financial mismanagement?

    Being accused of bringing the courts into disrepute by Lord Denning?
    Being accused of being brash by me.
    Julius Streicher, the editor of Der Sturmer, was criticised by a number of senior figures in the Nazi party. Because they felt his anti-senitism was excessive and a bit grotesque.

    Reportedly, this included Reinhard Heydrich.
  • Excellent, Cyclefree.

    My personal in-house Art expert tells me that a big part of the problem at the British Meseum and similar institutions is the crap pay for the staff. Poor morale and low levels of honesty are therefore not surprising.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857
    I’ll repeat - a low key process of photographing and indexing everything in the basement shouldn’t be a 100 zillion pound project.

    I keep a database of 100,000s of photos, documents etc on a NAS box that cost 2k. Multiple dimensions for search, currently playing with AI to deepen/broaden the search capability .

    Ah, here comes the cry - But we must set up a department. We must have a 10,000 page report. We must employ 150 consultants (no actual museum related skills). We must have a proper, separate office building - don’t want our precious people too near all that dusty museum junk. We need leadership from the NU10K - and they don’t come cheap….
  • For retro politics fans here's a Thames TV discussion about the housing market and mortgage rates from 1973:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_kHPHHC8tY
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857

    Excellent, Cyclefree.

    My personal in-house Art expert tells me that a big part of the problem at the British Meseum and similar institutions is the crap pay for the staff. Poor morale and low levels of honesty are therefore not surprising.

    A friend worked in the national museums nearby - now teaches. Apparently the British Museum is not popular as a place to work, relative to other places.
  • Re previous thread.

    For many millions of people things ARE going great.

    Not many of them are willing to admit it though as everyone yearns for another government handout, subsidy or tax cut.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600
    edited August 2023
    Great thread header Cyclefree, thank-you once again!

    On International Dog Day this country is truly doing it's bit by going to the dogs.
  • I do wonder why museums and art galleries don't sell many of their possessions (most of which are never on display).

    If they can't or don't want to show something why not earn some money by letting someone who does want it buy it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857

    I do wonder why museums and art galleries don't sell many of their possessions (most of which are never on display).

    If they can't or don't want to show something why not earn some money by letting someone who does want it buy it.

    Most of what they have in the basement isn’t very saleable. But is often academically interesting in terms of have a complete set/progression of X.

    Plus it makes it much harder to find where they put the Ark of the Covenant.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    IanB2 said:

    It’s international dog day!! Here’s a British-owned Hungarian dog, who has a Belgian passport, in Norway - is that international enough?


    But as any sailor knows there are two dogs every day. In fact it'll soon be the first dog ...
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,757
    The other day I heard a lady being interviewed on Radio 4 about the thefts. She was a representative of a body that represents curators. She was defending the position on the basis that most thefts were from the public and not the staff. She was challenged with 'How do you know, bearing in mind the recent example?' The logic seemed to be that it must be because it was in breach of the ethical principles of museum staff.

    I don't think that makes museum staff special. It should be against the ethical principles of the employees of any employer not to steal from their employer, but you know, people do.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833
    It’s international dog day!!


  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833
    International Dog Day!


  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,853

    Another fine piece of trenchant demolition by Cyclefree - definitely a welcome return to PB.

    I will add, though, that my experience of public organisations in Britain is generally positive - for example, asked to find a home for my seriously unwell uncle, Cornwall Country Council offered a number of options and recommended one that was not the least expensive (although they were paying for it). A few days after he'd moved in, a member of the Cornwall council team turned up to ask if he felt settled and if he needed anything. At individual staff level, there is still a very considerable level of public service attitude, which gets obscured by the horrid exceptions.

    Indeed. And there are plenty of private organisations, both companies and third sector, which make egregious mistakes. But private organisations tend to make mistakes in private while public organisations make mistakes in public.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600

    Re previous thread.

    For many millions of people things ARE going great.

    Not many of them are willing to admit it though as everyone yearns for another government handout, subsidy or tax cut.

    Yes, but that's enough about the over 65s.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,064

    Sandpit said:

    Sack George Osborne, he’s as useless as Logan Sargeant in the wet.

    He could play Lord Southmere in a remake of One of Our Dinosaurs Is Missing.
    Shouldn't the remake be called "One of our Elgin Marbles is Missing"?
  • Another fine piece of trenchant demolition by Cyclefree - definitely a welcome return to PB.

    I will add, though, that my experience of public organisations in Britain is generally positive - for example, asked to find a home for my seriously unwell uncle, Cornwall Country Council offered a number of options and recommended one that was not the least expensive (although they were paying for it). A few days after he'd moved in, a member of the Cornwall council team turned up to ask if he felt settled and if he needed anything. At individual staff level, there is still a very considerable level of public service attitude, which gets obscured by the horrid exceptions.

    Indeed. And there are plenty of private organisations, both companies and third sector, which make egregious mistakes. But private organisations tend to make mistakes in private while public organisations make mistakes in public.
    That depends on how good they are at covering the mistakes up.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,622

    I’ll repeat - a low key process of photographing and indexing everything in the basement shouldn’t be a 100 zillion pound project.

    I keep a database of 100,000s of photos, documents etc on a NAS box that cost 2k. Multiple dimensions for search, currently playing with AI to deepen/broaden the search capability .

    Ah, here comes the cry - But we must set up a department. We must have a 10,000 page report. We must employ 150 consultants (no actual museum related skills). We must have a proper, separate office building - don’t want our precious people too near all that dusty museum junk. We need leadership from the NU10K - and they don’t come cheap….

    What is a museum for if it isn't primarily to keep stuff safe and catalogued? It really isn't hard. Amazon track millions of items daily.

    We've had this argument with the Flatland Museum. They've just had a new building constructed (cost overrun, surprise surprise) with a cafe and visitor facilities but they are totally incapable of looking after their actual stuff, most of it collected and catalogued by their Victorian founders, who were naturally all volunteers.

    They had it all in 'safe storage' and had a contractor come in to do some building work in part of their storage facility. The contractor drilled through the ceiling and showered the whole archive in plaster dust. How on earth was that allowed to happen?

    Their nationally important collection of insects is currently being eaten by insects. We suggested they give them to somewhere that cared, or at least got them all DNA sequenced (they are reference specimens in some cases).


    I think the problem is that the they concentrate too much on the public face and not enough on their primary objective. For some reason there doesn't seem to be much kudos in doing things unseen.

    Can't someone just take pride in doing a good job?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,751
    Sigh. What @Cyclefree brings out so well is the repetitious nature of these scandals across so many of our institutions.

    The indignant denial that anything is wrong.

    The blame the messenger stage.

    The blame anyone else at all stage.

    The wait until everyone who could possibly be responsible has left the scene of the ineptitude*

    The reluctant acceptance that it did indeed go wrong but the smug assurances that lessons have already been learned.

    Trebles all round.

    * in fairness, this particular example seems to have fallen somewhat short on this stage.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,622

    I do wonder why museums and art galleries don't sell many of their possessions (most of which are never on display).

    If they can't or don't want to show something why not earn some money by letting someone who does want it buy it.

    A collection of flies is not something that is saleable or displayable.

    But it might be scientifically valuable, and interested parties might need to come and look at them.

    Why must everything be displayed?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600
    eristdoof said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sack George Osborne, he’s as useless as Logan Sargeant in the wet.

    He could play Lord Southmere in a remake of One of Our Dinosaurs Is Missing.
    Shouldn't the remake be called "One of our Elgin Marbles is Missing"?
    Someone could pinch the title of David Lodge's 1965 comic novel:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_British_Museum_is_Falling_Down
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,600
    edited August 2023
    IanB2 said:

    It’s international dog day!! Here’s a British-owned Hungarian dog, who has a Belgian passport, in Norway, who has visited fifteen counties already - is that international enough?


    What breed is he Ian?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833
    What is International Dog Day?

    International Dog Day is an annual event on August 26 to honour all dogs — no matter their shape, size, age, or breed.

    Dog lovers are encouraged to make an extra-special fuss of their forever furry friend and those who want to be dog owners are encouraged to look into adoption centres near them to try to give every abandoned pooch a home.

    Animal rights charity OIPA say it is a “special day to raise awareness about dog adoption because, if you are looking for a life’s companion, shelters are full of four-legged friends who are waiting for their chance and will bring just happiness to your days”.





  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833

    IanB2 said:

    It’s international dog day!! Here’s a British-owned Hungarian dog, who has a Belgian passport, in Norway, who has visited fifteen counties already - is that international enough?


    What breed is he Ian?
    Pumi
  • I do wonder why museums and art galleries don't sell many of their possessions (most of which are never on display).

    If they can't or don't want to show something why not earn some money by letting someone who does want it buy it.

    A collection of flies is not something that is saleable or displayable.

    But it might be scientifically valuable, and interested parties might need to come and look at them.

    Why must everything be displayed?
    Not everything needs to be displayed but not everything needs to be kept either.

    How often are the vast un-displayed hoards museums have ever looked at and how does any outsider know what exists in any case ?
  • TresTres Posts: 2,689

    I'm not worried about the British Museum, George Osborne (PBUH) is in charge and he'll work his magic.

    Are his wedding letters going to be in the museum?
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,739
    Boris, for all his manifold faults and failings, has always called Ukraine correctly and understood its significance. It is not Iraq or Afghanistan redux.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011

    Excellent, Cyclefree.

    My personal in-house Art expert tells me that a big part of the problem at the British Meseum and similar institutions is the crap pay for the staff. Poor morale and low levels of honesty are therefore not surprising.

    A friend worked in the national museums nearby - now teaches. Apparently the British Museum is not popular as a place to work, relative to other places.
    It'll be even less popular now you can't nick anything.
  • I’ll repeat - a low key process of photographing and indexing everything in the basement shouldn’t be a 100 zillion pound project.

    I keep a database of 100,000s of photos, documents etc on a NAS box that cost 2k. Multiple dimensions for search, currently playing with AI to deepen/broaden the search capability .

    Ah, here comes the cry - But we must set up a department. We must have a 10,000 page report. We must employ 150 consultants (no actual museum related skills). We must have a proper, separate office building - don’t want our precious people too near all that dusty museum junk. We need leadership from the NU10K - and they don’t come cheap….

    Next week I shall be seeing someone whose company makes collection management software for museums. Maybe they should give George Osborne a call.

    What you say is right except of course that the British Museum no longer has a blank canvas. It is not starting anew. My suspicion is not that the museum lacks the money so much as the will. There will always have been something more important than to finish off the database with all those uncatalogued items in the basement (and remember that some expertise is needed just to describe each artefact which in practice might mean waiting for a PhD student to be researching that particular shelf).
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,842
    Can I work on the assumption the Omnisis and Opinium numbers as shown on Wikpedia currently are false?

    They link to past tables, not those reflective of the numbers and there seems no corresponding tweets so I'm going to ignore these until we see some verifiable numbers.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,988
    edited August 2023
    Cyclefree's header inspired me to skim through the Wikipedia article on New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Museum_of_Art

    (Which has faced some of the same problems as the British Museum.)

    And I began to wonder as I read whether its complex governing structure isn't, at least in part, designed to make it difficult to assign blame for any failures.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,622

    I do wonder why museums and art galleries don't sell many of their possessions (most of which are never on display).

    If they can't or don't want to show something why not earn some money by letting someone who does want it buy it.

    A collection of flies is not something that is saleable or displayable.

    But it might be scientifically valuable, and interested parties might need to come and look at them.

    Why must everything be displayed?
    Not everything needs to be displayed but not everything needs to be kept either.

    How often are the vast un-displayed hoards museums have ever looked at and how does any outsider know what exists in any case ?
    Surely that is what the catalogue is for!

    Here's the kind of thing that can happen when someone rummages through a museum's collection:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31521719
  • Pretty feeble effort that tells us nothing new or of value, but then he's not writing for an intelligent audience so I guess he has to play to the gallery.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857

    I’ll repeat - a low key process of photographing and indexing everything in the basement shouldn’t be a 100 zillion pound project.

    I keep a database of 100,000s of photos, documents etc on a NAS box that cost 2k. Multiple dimensions for search, currently playing with AI to deepen/broaden the search capability .

    Ah, here comes the cry - But we must set up a department. We must have a 10,000 page report. We must employ 150 consultants (no actual museum related skills). We must have a proper, separate office building - don’t want our precious people too near all that dusty museum junk. We need leadership from the NU10K - and they don’t come cheap….

    Next week I shall be seeing someone whose company makes collection management software for museums. Maybe they should give George Osborne a call.

    What you say is right except of course that the British Museum no longer has a blank canvas. It is not starting anew. My suspicion is not that the museum lacks the money so much as the will. There will always have been something more important than to finish off the database with all those uncatalogued items in the basement (and remember that some expertise is needed just to describe each artefact which in practice might mean waiting for a PhD student to be researching that particular shelf).
    Well, lookup the list of PhD students in the country, and the list of researchers in various fields.

    “Hi, would you like to come and dig through the collection that is your specialty at the British Museum? We can pay you *some* money to help catalogue it. Oh and we will sponsor any papers you happen to write as a result.”



  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456
    The St. Petersberg troll farm are having a good go in the comments under that article.

    I know he’s a divisive figure, but a genuine well done to Boris Johnson on his efforts in Ukraine.

    Many other leaders in Europe took much longer to fully understand the situation, and in the US the issue of support has become very political in the run up to the election.

    Having just been there, the Ukranians are big fans of the British and of Johnson.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857

    Pretty feeble effort that tells us nothing new or of value, but then he's not writing for an intelligent audience so I guess he has to play to the gallery.
    Actually, I think it’s a pretty fair summation of the who, the what and the why. Many people don’t know the full story, so retelling ion a national newspaper seems pretty reasonable.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,988
    FPT: Sometimes even consent is not enough: When George W. Bush was at a Beijing Olympics one of the women on the American beach volleyball team presented her rear to him for a pat. (Apparently that's a common way of wishing an athlete good luck in that sport.)

    Not being prepared for that offer, he winced. Which I think was the right thing to do.
  • I am sure if you read the Mail long enough you eventually become illiterate
  • Sandpit said:

    The St. Petersberg troll farm are having a good go in the comments under that article.

    I know he’s a divisive figure, but a genuine well done to Boris Johnson on his efforts in Ukraine.

    Many other leaders in Europe took much longer to fully understand the situation, and in the US the issue of support has become very political in the run up to the election.

    Having just been there, the Ukranians are big fans of the British and of Johnson.
    I'm sure that's true, Sandpit, and I'm pleased to hear it but policywise it was a bit of a penalty kick for him.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    Sandpit said:

    The St. Petersberg troll farm are having a good go in the comments under that article.
    It's telling that their latest buzz-phrase is "negotiated peace". Things aren't going well for Russia.
  • Having worked with kusuems for very strong advice to anyone thinking of donating any items to them is don't.

    The scandelous behaviour at the British Museum is repeated time and time again right across the country. Moat museums have only the vaguest idea of what they have in storage. They have neither the time nor the money to properly catalogue collections and as organisations (rather than individuals) they have little interest in ensuring the artefacts are kept safe and secure.

    When a local museum was being refurbished a decade ago they simply skipped a large part of their stored collections because they no longer fitted with the new ethos.

    I would always encourage people to report finds via the local FLO but don't let the museum get their hands on the stuff.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456

    I’ll repeat - a low key process of photographing and indexing everything in the basement shouldn’t be a 100 zillion pound project.

    I keep a database of 100,000s of photos, documents etc on a NAS box that cost 2k. Multiple dimensions for search, currently playing with AI to deepen/broaden the search capability .

    Ah, here comes the cry - But we must set up a department. We must have a 10,000 page report. We must employ 150 consultants (no actual museum related skills). We must have a proper, separate office building - don’t want our precious people too near all that dusty museum junk. We need leadership from the NU10K - and they don’t come cheap….

    Next week I shall be seeing someone whose company makes collection management software for museums. Maybe they should give George Osborne a call.

    What you say is right except of course that the British Museum no longer has a blank canvas. It is not starting anew. My suspicion is not that the museum lacks the money so much as the will. There will always have been something more important than to finish off the database with all those uncatalogued items in the basement (and remember that some expertise is needed just to describe each artefact which in practice might mean waiting for a PhD student to be researching that particular shelf).
    But they’re the British Museum, they can’t possibly use off the shelf software - ugh - for their totally unique needs, as exemplified by that 10,000 page report from 150 consultants demonstrating their uniqueness and exceptionality in every possible way. Nothing other than starting from scratch will do.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,857
    Sandpit said:

    I’ll repeat - a low key process of photographing and indexing everything in the basement shouldn’t be a 100 zillion pound project.

    I keep a database of 100,000s of photos, documents etc on a NAS box that cost 2k. Multiple dimensions for search, currently playing with AI to deepen/broaden the search capability .

    Ah, here comes the cry - But we must set up a department. We must have a 10,000 page report. We must employ 150 consultants (no actual museum related skills). We must have a proper, separate office building - don’t want our precious people too near all that dusty museum junk. We need leadership from the NU10K - and they don’t come cheap….

    Next week I shall be seeing someone whose company makes collection management software for museums. Maybe they should give George Osborne a call.

    What you say is right except of course that the British Museum no longer has a blank canvas. It is not starting anew. My suspicion is not that the museum lacks the money so much as the will. There will always have been something more important than to finish off the database with all those uncatalogued items in the basement (and remember that some expertise is needed just to describe each artefact which in practice might mean waiting for a PhD student to be researching that particular shelf).
    But they’re the British Museum, they can’t possibly use off the shelf software - ugh - for their totally unique needs, as exemplified by that 10,000 page report from 150 consultants demonstrating their uniqueness and exceptionality in every possible way. Nothing other than starting from scratch will do.
    Any time anyone mentions “unique requirements”…. They go on The List.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436
    Sandpit said:

    Nothing other than starting from scratch will do.

    Coincidentally that's also their new policy regarding their artefacts.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456

    Sandpit said:

    I’ll repeat - a low key process of photographing and indexing everything in the basement shouldn’t be a 100 zillion pound project.

    I keep a database of 100,000s of photos, documents etc on a NAS box that cost 2k. Multiple dimensions for search, currently playing with AI to deepen/broaden the search capability .

    Ah, here comes the cry - But we must set up a department. We must have a 10,000 page report. We must employ 150 consultants (no actual museum related skills). We must have a proper, separate office building - don’t want our precious people too near all that dusty museum junk. We need leadership from the NU10K - and they don’t come cheap….

    Next week I shall be seeing someone whose company makes collection management software for museums. Maybe they should give George Osborne a call.

    What you say is right except of course that the British Museum no longer has a blank canvas. It is not starting anew. My suspicion is not that the museum lacks the money so much as the will. There will always have been something more important than to finish off the database with all those uncatalogued items in the basement (and remember that some expertise is needed just to describe each artefact which in practice might mean waiting for a PhD student to be researching that particular shelf).
    But they’re the British Museum, they can’t possibly use off the shelf software - ugh - for their totally unique needs, as exemplified by that 10,000 page report from 150 consultants demonstrating their uniqueness and exceptionality in every possible way. Nothing other than starting from scratch will do.
    Any time anyone mentions “unique requirements”…. They go on The List.
    Yup! The same time as anyone wants to change the software to meet their existing business processes - that are mostly driven by the old crap they’ve been using for decades - rather than mostly the other way around.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994
    Off topic, the Free Apples season has kicked off round our way, with a big bowl full available on someone's garden wall.

    Our tree isn't producing much of a crop this year, so we'll be takers rather than givers this time round.

    Plenty of blackberries to be harvested too.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    edited August 2023
    Can one of the PB weather experts let me know what the odds of rain are on Monday in London?
  • Sandpit said:

    I’ll repeat - a low key process of photographing and indexing everything in the basement shouldn’t be a 100 zillion pound project.

    I keep a database of 100,000s of photos, documents etc on a NAS box that cost 2k. Multiple dimensions for search, currently playing with AI to deepen/broaden the search capability .

    Ah, here comes the cry - But we must set up a department. We must have a 10,000 page report. We must employ 150 consultants (no actual museum related skills). We must have a proper, separate office building - don’t want our precious people too near all that dusty museum junk. We need leadership from the NU10K - and they don’t come cheap….

    Next week I shall be seeing someone whose company makes collection management software for museums. Maybe they should give George Osborne a call.

    What you say is right except of course that the British Museum no longer has a blank canvas. It is not starting anew. My suspicion is not that the museum lacks the money so much as the will. There will always have been something more important than to finish off the database with all those uncatalogued items in the basement (and remember that some expertise is needed just to describe each artefact which in practice might mean waiting for a PhD student to be researching that particular shelf).
    But they’re the British Museum, they can’t possibly use off the shelf software - ugh - for their totally unique needs, as exemplified by that 10,000 page report from 150 consultants demonstrating their uniqueness and exceptionality in every possible way. Nothing other than starting from scratch will do.
    That probably was the case when the British Museum (or any similar institution) began to computerise their catalogues back in the 1980s or 90s. Nowadays, it is a matter of customising off-the-shelf software. But cataloguing is not just a matter of data entry. Most of this basement stuff will not have been manually indexed even a century after being acquired.
  • I’ll repeat - a low key process of photographing and indexing everything in the basement shouldn’t be a 100 zillion pound project.

    I keep a database of 100,000s of photos, documents etc on a NAS box that cost 2k. Multiple dimensions for search, currently playing with AI to deepen/broaden the search capability .

    Ah, here comes the cry - But we must set up a department. We must have a 10,000 page report. We must employ 150 consultants (no actual museum related skills). We must have a proper, separate office building - don’t want our precious people too near all that dusty museum junk. We need leadership from the NU10K - and they don’t come cheap….

    Next week I shall be seeing someone whose company makes collection management software for museums. Maybe they should give George Osborne a call.

    What you say is right except of course that the British Museum no longer has a blank canvas. It is not starting anew. My suspicion is not that the museum lacks the money so much as the will. There will always have been something more important than to finish off the database with all those uncatalogued items in the basement (and remember that some expertise is needed just to describe each artefact which in practice might mean waiting for a PhD student to be researching that particular shelf).
    Well, lookup the list of PhD students in the country, and the list of researchers in various fields.

    “Hi, would you like to come and dig through the collection that is your specialty at the British Museum? We can pay you *some* money to help catalogue it. Oh and we will sponsor any papers you happen to write as a result.”



    More a question of getting some big grants and inviting graduates to do their PhDs by rooting around the collections.
  • Steve fucking Borthwick.
  • I do wonder why museums and art galleries don't sell many of their possessions (most of which are never on display).

    If they can't or don't want to show something why not earn some money by letting someone who does want it buy it.

    A collection of flies is not something that is saleable or displayable.

    But it might be scientifically valuable, and interested parties might need to come and look at them.

    Why must everything be displayed?
    Not everything needs to be displayed but not everything needs to be kept either.

    How often are the vast un-displayed hoards museums have ever looked at and how does any outsider know what exists in any case ?
    Surely that is what the catalogue is for!

    Here's the kind of thing that can happen when someone rummages through a museum's collection:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31521719
    The BBC series Britain's Lost Masterpieces performed a similar service for municipal art collections. Worth a look but not currently on iplayer.
  • Off topic, the Free Apples season has kicked off round our way, with a big bowl full available on someone's garden wall.

    Our tree isn't producing much of a crop this year, so we'll be takers rather than givers this time round.

    Plenty of blackberries to be harvested too.

    Fly-tipping fruit?
  • Steve fucking Borthwick.

    Have you got a link to the PornHub video?
  • Can one of the PB weather experts let me know what the odds of rain are on Monday in London?

    It has just started raining with thunder and lightning here in outer London now you have posted that.

    The BBC weather site says London will have a dry Monday with possible showers in the evening.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather
  • I do wonder why museums and art galleries don't sell many of their possessions (most of which are never on display).

    If they can't or don't want to show something why not earn some money by letting someone who does want it buy it.

    A collection of flies is not something that is saleable or displayable.

    But it might be scientifically valuable, and interested parties might need to come and look at them.

    Why must everything be displayed?
    Not everything needs to be displayed but not everything needs to be kept either.

    How often are the vast un-displayed hoards museums have ever looked at and how does any outsider know what exists in any case ?
    Very often. There are local, national and international researchers working on museum collections all the time. What may seem to be a box of boring old pottery to you (or to the museum authorities) can be crucial research material for someone looking at, for example, trade links between Britain and the rest of the Empire in the later Roman period.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,188
    @Cyclefree another excellent piece.

    I am thinking of applying to become a trustee and director of a charity myself, actually.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with it to my knowledge but, strangely, my first thought was that she'd be the first person I'd call for advice if I heard about any allegation of malpractice or wrongdoing, and my second was about how I'd convince my fellow directors to act (my default assumption being they'd be terrified of the embarrassment and reputational damage it might cause, be inclined to dismiss it, and would probably bracket me as a troublemaker/gullible and not a team player).

    In short, I'm not sure this is a bad apples thing: I think most organisations and institutions are just culturally wired like this with human nature being what it is on top.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456

    Sandpit said:

    The St. Petersberg troll farm are having a good go in the comments under that article.

    I know he’s a divisive figure, but a genuine well done to Boris Johnson on his efforts in Ukraine.

    Many other leaders in Europe took much longer to fully understand the situation, and in the US the issue of support has become very political in the run up to the election.

    Having just been there, the Ukranians are big fans of the British and of Johnson.
    I'm sure that's true, Sandpit, and I'm pleased to hear it but policywise it was a bit of a penalty kick for him.
    But Johnson stood up to take the penalty, and scored the goal under pressure, while several other leaders missed theirs.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456

    @Cyclefree another excellent piece.

    I am thinking of applying to become a trustee and director of a charity myself, actually.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with it to my knowledge but, strangely, my first thought was that she'd be the first person I'd call for advice if I heard about any allegation of malpractice or wrongdoing, and my second was about how I'd convince my fellow directors to act (my default assumption being they'd be terrified of the embarrassment and reputational damage it might cause, be inclined to dismiss it, and would probably bracket me as a troublemaker/gullible and not a team player).

    In short, I'm not sure this is a bad apples thing: I think most organisations and institutions are just culturally wired like this with human nature being what it is on top.

    Indeed, it’s mostly human nature that needs to be trained out of people.

    How many of those who go into managerial or trustee roles with large 3rd sector organisations, see their primary tank as being custodians of this famous institution, and therefore when a problem occurs their first reaction is to think of whatever best preserves the reputation of the organisation, rather than what’s actually the right thing to do in the circumstances?
  • This is a bigger national humiliation than losing to Iceland at the 2016 Euros or losing a war to France.

    BorthwickOut.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,456
    Good news: they found the black boxes from Prigozhin’s plane.

    Bad news: they’re in the hands of Russian investogators, who are probably going to have to stay away from windows if their report tells the truth about the accident.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/26/yevgeny-prigozhin-jet-black-box-recovered-as-dna-testing-be/
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,287

    This is a bigger national humiliation than losing to Iceland at the 2016 Euros or losing a war to France.

    BorthwickOut.

    Well done Fiji.

    God Bless Fiji.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    The St. Petersberg troll farm are having a good go in the comments under that article.

    I know he’s a divisive figure, but a genuine well done to Boris Johnson on his efforts in Ukraine.

    Many other leaders in Europe took much longer to fully understand the situation, and in the US the issue of support has become very political in the run up to the election.

    Having just been there, the Ukranians are big fans of the British and of Johnson.
    I'm sure that's true, Sandpit, and I'm pleased to hear it but policywise it was a bit of a penalty kick for him.
    But Johnson stood up to take the penalty, and scored the goal under pressure, while several other leaders missed theirs.
    Yes, and I am by no mean loathe to give a politician credit for getting something right. Too often they get flak for taking correct but unpopular decisions and that can lead to excessive and dangerous populism. So it would be wrong not to give credit for a correct and important policy, even if it was an obvious and popular one which most other politicians would have got right too.

    You wouldn't want to overegg it though. This was hardly comparable to Churchill warning about Nazi Germany in the 1930s.
  • Johnson got Ukraine right. But then so did SKS. In general the UK got Ukraine right.

    But Johnson also lied and partied through lockdown and brought disgrace to the office and ruined this country.

    So I am not going to say he's a good PM just yet. Still the worst in history by my count.
  • Sandpit said:

    Good news: they found the black boxes from Prigozhin’s plane.

    Bad news: they’re in the hands of Russian investogators, who are probably going to have to stay away from windows if their report tells the truth about the accident.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/26/yevgeny-prigozhin-jet-black-box-recovered-as-dna-testing-be/

    They will have had the boxes for some time now, probably for about a fortnight before the plane took off.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,683
    edited August 2023
    Sandpit said:

    @Cyclefree another excellent piece.

    I am thinking of applying to become a trustee and director of a charity myself, actually.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with it to my knowledge but, strangely, my first thought was that she'd be the first person I'd call for advice if I heard about any allegation of malpractice or wrongdoing, and my second was about how I'd convince my fellow directors to act (my default assumption being they'd be terrified of the embarrassment and reputational damage it might cause, be inclined to dismiss it, and would probably bracket me as a troublemaker/gullible and not a team player).

    In short, I'm not sure this is a bad apples thing: I think most organisations and institutions are just culturally wired like this with human nature being what it is on top.

    Indeed, it’s mostly human nature that needs to be trained out of people.

    How many of those who go into managerial or trustee roles with large 3rd sector organisations, see their primary tank as being custodians of this famous institution, and therefore when a problem occurs their first reaction is to think of whatever best preserves the reputation of the organisation, rather than what’s actually the right thing to do in the circumstances?
    One point: I'd take very seriously any training for trustees, even if it is the charity equivalent of what is sometimes decried as HR and woke stuff. As I understand it, the law about charity trustees has tightened in recent years and their personal responsibilities and liabilities are greater. How far this is the case in actual practice I don't know, as I have never become a charity trustee, but the very reason for not doing so was that the little I saw of it made me feel I did not want to do so without being very sure of the other trustees.

    PS: puzzled by the expression "trustee and director". Aren't those roles kept separate? [PS Not asking personally or about the specific case - just the general point.]
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,188
    By the way @Sandpit Poland has come a long way.

    I first went to Warsaw in 1995 when there was still, sadly, some child begging on the old trams, potholes in the motorways, and everyone drove ladas and volgas. The food was limited, spartan and unappetising, and the zloty had just been revalued dropping four zeros. Another of my memories was men wearing strong perfume, where it was clear that's what they did in lieu of regular washing. And I can't recall a single skyscraper, just a few cheapish office blocks starting to go up.

    All that's changed. Look at it now.
  • Taz said:

    This is a bigger national humiliation than losing to Iceland at the 2016 Euros or losing a war to France.

    BorthwickOut.

    Well done Fiji.

    God Bless Fiji.
    The worst thing about the British Empire, it allowed a bunch of bloody colonial upstarts to beat us at our own games.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,287

    Taz said:

    This is a bigger national humiliation than losing to Iceland at the 2016 Euros or losing a war to France.

    BorthwickOut.

    Well done Fiji.

    God Bless Fiji.
    The worst thing about the British Empire, it allowed a bunch of bloody colonial upstarts to beat us at our own games.
    https://x.com/sportbillysays/status/1695468713196040330?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
  • Johnson got Ukraine right. But then so did SKS. In general the UK got Ukraine right.

    But Johnson also lied and partied through lockdown and brought disgrace to the office and ruined this country.

    So I am not going to say he's a good PM just yet. Still the worst in history by my count.

    Worst in my lifetime anyway, CHB, but he did get Ukraine right and he was quite good on Covid for a while.

    Worst in UK History? Hmmmm.....Lord North usually gets the nod, but Boris definitely runs him close.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,027
    I went to my first football match of the season today - Huddersfield v. Norwich. At the end the stats were Huddersfield 16 shots, 4 on target; Norwich 9 shots, 5 on target. The result? Huddersfield 0, Norwich 4.
  • Taz said:

    Taz said:

    This is a bigger national humiliation than losing to Iceland at the 2016 Euros or losing a war to France.

    BorthwickOut.

    Well done Fiji.

    God Bless Fiji.
    The worst thing about the British Empire, it allowed a bunch of bloody colonial upstarts to beat us at our own games.
    https://x.com/sportbillysays/status/1695468713196040330?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
    Bring back Eddie.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,872
    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    It’s international dog day!! Here’s a British-owned Hungarian dog, who has a Belgian passport, in Norway - is that international enough?


    But as any sailor knows there are two dogs every day. In fact it'll soon be the first dog ...
    I'll keep watch for them, twice...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,645

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    This is a bigger national humiliation than losing to Iceland at the 2016 Euros or losing a war to France.

    BorthwickOut.

    Well done Fiji.

    God Bless Fiji.
    The worst thing about the British Empire, it allowed a bunch of bloody colonial upstarts to beat us at our own games.
    https://x.com/sportbillysays/status/1695468713196040330?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
    Bring back Eddie.
    Too old to ski jump now mate
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,988
    Since this is International Dog Day, I'll mention this thought I had a few months ago: One of the most successful evolutionary strategies, in the last few thousand years, has been to be useful to be humans. For example, dogs, having accepted being junior partners to humans, have done much better than wolves.

    For some species it's been a win/win, for example, apple trees. For others, for example chickens, less so. According to a quick search, there are more than 34 billion chickens in the world, but not all of them live happy lives. (In recent years I have come to believe we should treat chickens better, though I know that will increase the costs of the eggs and chicken meat I consume.)
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,622
    edited August 2023

    Since this is International Dog Day, I'll mention this thought I had a few months ago: One of the most successful evolutionary strategies, in the last few thousand years, has been to be useful to be humans. For example, dogs, having accepted being junior partners to humans, have done much better than wolves.

    For some species it's been a win/win, for example, apple trees. For others, for example chickens, less so. According to a quick search, there are more than 34 billion chickens in the world, but not all of them live happy lives. (In recent years I have come to believe we should treat chickens better, though I know that will increase the costs of the eggs and chicken meat I consume.)

    Grasses are the biggest winner.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,436

    Since this is International Dog Day, I'll mention this thought I had a few months ago: One of the most successful evolutionary strategies, in the last few thousand years, has been to be useful to be humans. For example, dogs, having accepted being junior partners to humans, have done much better than wolves.

    Cats are unique in having achieved that without subordinating themselves.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,373
    For me, this line in the excellent threader gets to the nub of the issue:

    "The Director resigns, apologises for his accusation against the dealer and withdraws it."

    All too often, whistleblowers, or even people just trying to be helpful, get it in the neck from much more powerful people and/or organisations who are trying to protect their reputations.

    But at least he resigned and apologised. That makes him better than many other managers in a similar situation - see other Cyclefree threaders passim.

    (The situation was probably not helped by the way art and antiquities dealers are often viewed by institutions. The Lovejoy tendency is sadly common in the multi-billion dollar art and antiquities market. But when someone in that market actually tells you that you have a problem, you should listen. White hats exist.)
  • Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    @Eabhal

    The first thing to read is this twitter thread/report which suggests that transport infrastructure in the UK is incredibly expensive compared to peer economies.

    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/britains-infrastructure-is-too-expensive?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

    The next thing is these two charts, the first of which I posted last night. The usual suspects couldn’t wait to criticise, it was variously dismissed as Remainer propaganda, erroneous (by those who didn’t bother to check the underlying data), while others managed to find themselves arguing that commuter systems should not extend to actual commuting catchment areas (Tyndall).

    https://x.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1695034745871032609?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg


    https://x.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1695083709831999553?s=46&t=L9g_woCIqbo1MTuBFCK0xg



    I think the criticism that the first chart does not contain rail and bus is fair. But including them won't make the UK look much better compared with European countries, given only 2% of us use the train and 4% the bus to commute to work.

    The ONS think 17.5 million people in England and Wales, or 35%, live in "major built up areas" - population over 200,000.
    That only a small percentage choose to use inferior public transport is fine, its a valid choice to choose not to do so, just ensure people have a choice.

    What we need is to invest in our infrastructure. For our population density we lack sufficient roads, we have far lower roads than comparably dense nations like the Netherlands or Japan (both of whom have a higher public transport share and cycling share than we do) which means we lack sufficient cycle paths as a result.

    Do what the Dutch have done and build more roads, cycling improves and public transport (buses) improves too. Everybody wins.
    I think your grasp of causality is rather weak.
    I think its better than yours of starting what you object to (cars and roads) and then working backwards from there. You say you're in favour of Dutch cycling, you say you're in favour of cycling paths, but any proposals of doing what they've done and building roads with cycling paths and rather than embracing that you oppose it. Why do you oppose the opportunity for new bike paths etc to go with new roads?

    The other day you asked me when if we followed my policy of construction we could expect new cycling paths, would it be after a decade, and I said immediately - you never responded so not sure if you saw that. You also agreed that if the UK caught up with the Netherlands for road density it would represent 90,000 extra miles of roads and asked if we did that how much cycling infrastructure I would expect with that - to which I said about 180,000 miles of segregated cycling paths.

    Besides motorways, all new roads as standard should come with safe, segregated, cycling paths. And building new roads to relieve traffic on old ones allows them to be converted to LTNs or have cycling added to them once the road's throughput is relieved so it can be narrowed to cars and give land space over to bikes once relieved.

    How many miles of cycle paths do we have in the UK today? Do you think if we followed my plan and added ~180k miles of dedicated cycle paths thanks to new road construction, then do you feel that would be better for cycling or not in this country?

    Its not reinventing the bicycle wheel - its what the Dutch have done for decades.
  • Since this is International Dog Day, I'll mention this thought I had a few months ago: One of the most successful evolutionary strategies, in the last few thousand years, has been to be useful to be humans. For example, dogs, having accepted being junior partners to humans, have done much better than wolves.

    For some species it's been a win/win, for example, apple trees. For others, for example chickens, less so. According to a quick search, there are more than 34 billion chickens in the world, but not all of them live happy lives. (In recent years I have come to believe we should treat chickens better, though I know that will increase the costs of the eggs and chicken meat I consume.)

    Meat is murder!
  • .

    Since this is International Dog Day, I'll mention this thought I had a few months ago: One of the most successful evolutionary strategies, in the last few thousand years, has been to be useful to be humans. For example, dogs, having accepted being junior partners to humans, have done much better than wolves.

    For some species it's been a win/win, for example, apple trees. For others, for example chickens, less so. According to a quick search, there are more than 34 billion chickens in the world, but not all of them live happy lives. (In recent years I have come to believe we should treat chickens better, though I know that will increase the costs of the eggs and chicken meat I consume.)

    Meat is murder!
    Bigmouth strikes again!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,373

    Johnson got Ukraine right. But then so did SKS. In general the UK got Ukraine right.

    But Johnson also lied and partied through lockdown and brought disgrace to the office and ruined this country.

    So I am not going to say he's a good PM just yet. Still the worst in history by my count.

    Worst in my lifetime anyway, CHB, but he did get Ukraine right and he was quite good on Covid for a while.

    Worst in UK History? Hmmmm.....Lord North usually gets the nod, but Boris definitely runs him close.
    That's a fair call. But Johnson's PMship was dominated by Covid, and I wonder how other PMs would have reacted. Starmer would have kept us in lockdown for longer, for instance. I also factor in the fact that Johnson had been seriously ill with Covid - although that is tempered by the fact the character traits that brought him down were visible well before he became PM.

    But how do you compare it with Blair's disastrous decision over the Iraq War? We are still seeing the consequences of that today, and it was a totally unforced error.
  • Can one of the PB weather experts let me know what the odds of rain are on Monday in London?

    Bank Holiday, odds on, surely :lol:
  • Dorries has just tweeted that she has today submitted her resignation letter.
This discussion has been closed.