I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I guess Swedish, Norwegian or Danish homes would do? I've no idea whether they have been, as I said I'm a newbie in this subject.
Yes, but you have to consider how their housing stock is different to ours, including its density, and the structure of their heating systems.
You can't just read across 1:1 as it's too superficial.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
Someone needs to send CR over to tell them that their heat pumps aren't working.
I am here to test your heat pump. Run me a bath now.
It's the same joke as yesterday and I'm still laughing myself silly.
You are very easily amused.
Sad bunch of saddos, same as all the idiots that like Dura_Aces bullshit.
You thought it was funny yesterday. You said so.
Clearly you can't remember what you or others post from one day to the other as that is twice now you have completely forgotten the previous day's posts and remembered the exact opposite.
God, you're boring.
Why are you doing this? Yer on holiday with your family, aren't you? Go, enjoy yourself, you'll only get a few years with the little 'uns before they turn woke.
They most certainly won't, because they are very bright.
You really don't know that. And I hope that you'd give them the space to form their own opinion, however misguided you may think they are.
No, I don't, but you proffered to know them better than I did so holding a mirror up to that served some purpose, didn't it?
I will encourage my children to develop critical thinking, and particularly to challenge any fashionable consensus, and to always work things out for themselves from first principles*. If they do that, I don't care if they reach different conclusions to me - I'll be confident they are well-reasoned and could always be subject to change.
[*I've even put that in my will as guidance for their guardians to follow, should the worst happen.]
Fuck me, you're a tetchy sod lately. I didn't profess to know them better than you, it was a gentle piss take on them being woke when you're the polar opposite. "Holding a mirror up", you pretentious little fuck. I hope one of them turns towards vegan transism, you'll be soiling the back of yer 550 quid shirt 🤣🤣
Woah. Steady on.
You said they'd be woke and I just said the opposite, and then you challenged that and, I explained that was precisely my point, no-one can know but here are the values I really care about, and, now, you've thrown a massive hissy fit - seemingly out of nowhere.
Take a chill pill. Calm down.
A massive hissy fit? Nah, you need to scroll back along your last 50k+ posts to see tons of those. Me? I'm just mildly bemused at just how angry you get. It's the internet, no one cares.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
First world problem: Royal Mail, in their wisdom have changed all our local post boxes to 9:00am collection (from 16:30, 12:00 on Saturday). This effectively means that we no longer have a next day delivery service from our rural area, not even with an expensive 1st class stamp and it adversely affects a number of local businesses.
There's been no consultation, no warning, no information - they've just changed the little time signs on the post-box.
I assume, as RM is a private company, there is no redress, no route to complain or to ask them to reconsider.
I thought about contacting our local councillor, who is generally very good, but what's the point, what can she do? If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be grateful.
Edit: From RM website:
Changing collection times Sometimes our postboxes can change to an earlier collection time, and the mail will be collected when a postman or woman is making their deliveries, usually in the morning.
We'll put a label on the postbox to let you know before we change it.
Anyone remember when we had a national mail service that collected twice a day from every postbox? Progress, eh!
9:00 collection doesn't mean they collect on the dot of nine. It means they collect it at a convenient point of the day for them - which round here means about 1:30pm...
Don’t we all do that, as @TOPPING rightly implies?
In real life - believe it or not - I am perfectly affable, even charming on a good hair day, and I certainly don’t seek to wind people up for no reason
Nor do I bang on about aliens or AI
I come on here specifically to joust. To vent. To rant about annoyances and weird passions. To give my id free rein
Then I go back to normal life and act normally, my eerie dark energy expended
A good question about why we come here. In my case, for an idle chat with friends (all of you) and a long-term project to turn you all into Corbynites.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
Talking of LED lights, no-one seems to have considered how dazzling they are to other road users when installed in car headlights. They're so bright when you're directly in line with them that it often seems like the other car is flashing their lights at you for some reason.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
Is that domestic or corporate ones, or both, please?
Someone needs to send CR over to tell them that their heat pumps aren't working.
I am here to test your heat pump. Run me a bath now.
the face isn't quite red enough
That's because the water wasn't hot enough.
You joke, but I bet there will be lots of pb'ers now secretly staying at friends houses with heat pumps overnight in future, on occasion, and asking if they mind if they take a bath.
I am delighted to have come up with this cracking idea.
You might do it normally in any event. And asking a trusted friend, and trying it for yourself for real, is likely to be far more convincing than anything said on here, particularly if coming from a political faction who trolls you and you don't trust.
I just want to reiterate, we have a heat pump and it's great. We have a big, deep, very hot bath every night. We do have solar hot water too, so this time of year the heat pump is not needing to heat the water but it works just fine (if not for free) in the winter.
You're sceptical of heat pumps and that's fine. They aren't suited for every situation, I'm the first to admit. But they do actually work.
In terms of the energy costs the heat pump is typically giving 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electricity it uses. In the world where electricity costs 3 times as much per kWh as gas, they will cost the same amount to run (ignoring capital and servicing costs - servicing not really required for a heat pump).
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
A bit more info I've found.
"The Daikin Altherma 3 H HT air source heat pump can provide water with temperatures up to 70°C – the same level as gas boilers – and can work when it’s as cold as -28°C outside.
Inside your home, Daikin allows you to choose between getting a wall-mounted unit and a separate hot water cylinder (a setup that will be familiar to most gas boiler owners), or a single, floor-standing unit with an integrated hot water cylinder.
Brands such as ICAX and Pure Thermal also offer high temperature heat pumps, but not for domestic use – unless you live in Buckingham Palace.
However, another competitor is set to enter the UK market, in the shape of Vattenfall, a company owned by the Swedish state. Its machines are being rolled out in a Netherlands pilot this year, before potentially reaching the UK next year.
A Vattenfall spokesperson told us their high temperature heat pump could reach 60°C to 80°C, which would put it at the same level as Daikin’s machine, as well as gas boilers."
As with electric cars, I will wait until an ASHP makes sense for my situation. Government policies can make a difference with incentives and the prices will inevitably fall with greater numbers produced and competition.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
Well remember the time about 15 years ago, when I was with an acquaintance of mine, a very conservative Republican lawyer, who was, like many right-winger, absolutely incandescent (pun intended) in his disdain for LEDs.
He insisted on buying up half the stock of old-school light-bulbs at from a wholesaler. Haven't seen him for years - wonder how he feels about those proto-Woke LEDs today!
First world problem: Royal Mail, in their wisdom have changed all our local post boxes to 9:00am collection (from 16:30, 12:00 on Saturday). This effectively means that we no longer have a next day delivery service from our rural area, not even with an expensive 1st class stamp and it adversely affects a number of local businesses.
There's been no consultation, no warning, no information - they've just changed the little time signs on the post-box.
I assume, as RM is a private company, there is no redress, no route to complain or to ask them to reconsider.
I thought about contacting our local councillor, who is generally very good, but what's the point, what can she do? If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be grateful.
Edit: From RM website:
Changing collection times Sometimes our postboxes can change to an earlier collection time, and the mail will be collected when a postman or woman is making their deliveries, usually in the morning.
We'll put a label on the postbox to let you know before we change it.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
I think that’s the crucial point,
I think people need to hear the words “this technology is coming and you are absolutely free to upgrade or install now if you want, but over the next decade we expect there to be further improvements and we’ll work with manufacturers to understand how best we can tailor these to different property types and where necessary effect legislative change to make sure all situations are catered for.”
Of course instead we just get deadlines and tumbleweed.
Don’t we all do that, as @TOPPING rightly implies?
In real life - believe it or not - I am perfectly affable, even charming on a good hair day, and I certainly don’t seek to wind people up for no reason
Nor do I bang on about aliens or AI
I come on here specifically to joust. To vent. To rant about annoyances and weird passions. To give my id free rein
Then I go back to normal life and act normally, my eerie dark energy expended
A good question about why we come here. In my case, for an idle chat with friends (all of you) and a long-term project to turn you all into Corbynites.
It's good to have lifetime projects .
I suspect your lifetime project might require you to have the sort of lifespan under which methuselah would be classified as an infant death
Don’t we all do that, as @TOPPING rightly implies?
In real life - believe it or not - I am perfectly affable, even charming on a good hair day, and I certainly don’t seek to wind people up for no reason
Nor do I bang on about aliens or AI
I come on here specifically to joust. To vent. To rant about annoyances and weird passions. To give my id free rein
Then I go back to normal life and act normally, my eerie dark energy expended
A good question about why we come here. In my case, for an idle chat with friends (all of you) and a long-term project to turn you all into Corbynites.
It's good to have lifetime projects .
The chat is welcome, but I feel your long-term project is doomed
First world problem: Royal Mail, in their wisdom have changed all our local post boxes to 9:00am collection (from 16:30, 12:00 on Saturday). This effectively means that we no longer have a next day delivery service from our rural area, not even with an expensive 1st class stamp and it adversely affects a number of local businesses.
There's been no consultation, no warning, no information - they've just changed the little time signs on the post-box.
I assume, as RM is a private company, there is no redress, no route to complain or to ask them to reconsider.
I thought about contacting our local councillor, who is generally very good, but what's the point, what can she do? If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be grateful.
Edit: From RM website:
Changing collection times Sometimes our postboxes can change to an earlier collection time, and the mail will be collected when a postman or woman is making their deliveries, usually in the morning.
We'll put a label on the postbox to let you know before we change it.
First world problem: Royal Mail, in their wisdom have changed all our local post boxes to 9:00am collection (from 16:30, 12:00 on Saturday). This effectively means that we no longer have a next day delivery service from our rural area, not even with an expensive 1st class stamp and it adversely affects a number of local businesses.
There's been no consultation, no warning, no information - they've just changed the little time signs on the post-box.
I assume, as RM is a private company, there is no redress, no route to complain or to ask them to reconsider.
I thought about contacting our local councillor, who is generally very good, but what's the point, what can she do? If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be grateful.
Edit: From RM website:
Changing collection times Sometimes our postboxes can change to an earlier collection time, and the mail will be collected when a postman or woman is making their deliveries, usually in the morning.
We'll put a label on the postbox to let you know before we change it.
Anyone remember when we had a national mail service that collected twice a day from every postbox? Progress, eh!
9:00 collection doesn't mean they collect on the dot of nine. It means they collect it at a convenient point of the day for them - which round here means about 1:30pm...
Fair point. I think what it probably means is that the postman/lady is going to empty the post box when they come past rather than have someone else come out later in the day to empty them. 'Efficiency savings', I guess.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
Reading the link, they use a refrigerant with a higher boiling point (makes sense).
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
Someone needs to send CR over to tell them that their heat pumps aren't working.
Or possibly just enclose CR in a heat exchanger and, given the heat he seems to generate here on PB, you should get enough to warm the whole of Bedford...... well.. OGH's house at least
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
I think it's a different situation entirely. The heat pump technology is pretty well developed, but it's fundamentally reliant on having good insulation and large, ideally underfloor, radiators.
You didn't need to replace your radiators, windows and double the thickness of your walls to be able to use LEDs for lighting. No amount of development of heat pumps is going to change that they will work badly in a poorly insulated house with old radiators.
The problem is that British homes have always been built very badly in terms of heat retention. The country has been talking about retrofitting better insulation for decades. Progress has been slow.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
If I had to bet on it, I'd say the cost of electricity is likely to come down significantly relative to that of gas over the next 5-10 years. That will also make the economics of replacement heat pumps look more attractive.
At the moment, it's an analogous situation to EVs. Well off early adopters, who are either performing extensive home renovations, or fitting out a new build, can get excellent results with existing technology.
Within the decade, it will become increasingly practical for those of us with a bit less dosh.
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
Is that domestic or corporate ones, or both, please?
We would not recommend to domestic, we have fitted around 10 and have had a lot of complaints. Commercially 2 years ago heat pumps were getting specified for everything. We probably fitted around 20 installations to commercial locations, sometimes 3-4 at once depending on the size and type of the building. This year heat pumps have stopped being specified on the work that we have priced. They are 5 times as expensive as a gas install for a commercial building and if that buidling has regular access to it i.e. doors opening all the time, they do not work. Summer is the normal time for changing heating in schools,colleges etc 2 years ago all we did was heat pumps, this year we are not doing any.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
..As with electric cars, I will wait until an ASHP makes sense for my situation. Government policies can make a difference with incentives and the prices will inevitably fall with greater numbers produced and competition.
And, as with cars, government incentives (both positive and negative) are needed to make sure the mass market is provided for within the current decade.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
At the minute, I'd guess that most households can't afford to replace a usable gas heating system with an alternative energy source. What we really need to be doing is upping our insulation game to complement renewable energy, along with ventilation. The government (any government) could earn a serious boost if it spent money on a well run insulation initiative. Not just give money to cowboy companies to throw some old shite in an elderly couple's loft and call it mission accomplished.
At the minute, I'd guess that most households can't afford to replace a usable gas heating system with an alternative energy source. What we really need to be doing is upping our insulation game to complement renewable energy, along with ventilation. The government (any government) could earn a serious boost if it spent money on a well run insulation initiative. Not just give money to cowboy companies to throw some old shite in an elderly couple's loft and call it mission accomplished.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
Those expensive shirts sound like "Veblen goods" to this farm boy.
They sound daft to me.
I would never buy one
Spending 500 quid on a pair of Loubies is definitely something I'm not against, though. I got my wife a pair for her birthday last year, and there is most definitely something about them!
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
Just googled it to reacquaint myself with the l facts
Amazing detail: after the war the French understandably wanted to put the SS butchers on trial - but the west German govt refused to extradite most of them
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
Reading the link, they use a refrigerant with a higher boiling point (makes sense).
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
And Casino can wallow in steaming suds.
Makes sense. 250% is pretty good - as you posted elsewhere, if the the relative cost of gas energy to electrical energy increases over the next few years, as seems likely, these could start to look very attractive.
Conventional low temperature heat pumps make perfect sense for new-builds or really extensive renovations, but solutions like these could become a sensible drop-in replacement for today's gas boilers.
Those expensive shirts sound like "Veblen goods" to this farm boy.
They sound daft to me.
I would never buy one
Spending 500 quid on a pair of Loubies is definitely something I'm not against, though. I got my wife a pair for her birthday last year, and there is most definitely something about them!
I just paint the soles of my M&S specials a nice bright red
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
Don’t we all do that, as @TOPPING rightly implies?
In real life - believe it or not - I am perfectly affable, even charming on a good hair day, and I certainly don’t seek to wind people up for no reason
Nor do I bang on about aliens or AI
I come on here specifically to joust. To vent. To rant about annoyances and weird passions. To give my id free rein
Then I go back to normal life and act normally, my eerie dark energy expended
A good question about why we come here. In my case, for an idle chat with friends (all of you) and a long-term project to turn you all into Corbynites.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
At the minute, I'd guess that most households can't afford to replace a usable gas heating system with an alternative energy source. What we really need to be doing is upping our insulation game to complement renewable energy, along with ventilation. The government (any government) could earn a serious boost if it spent money on a well run insulation initiative. Not just give money to cowboy companies to throw some old shite in an elderly couple's loft and call it mission accomplished.
Incidentally, 'insulation' won't work for most very old houses. They're designed to breathe. People in old houses should know this, and not fit double glazing etc etc.
A jumper and open fire works well in older houses, mind!
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
Wasn’t that the case with the late Robert Maxwell’s home village, somewhere in Slovakia. When someone searched after the War they discovered he was the only survivor. Or something like that.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
Don’t we all do that, as @TOPPING rightly implies?
In real life - believe it or not - I am perfectly affable, even charming on a good hair day, and I certainly don’t seek to wind people up for no reason
Nor do I bang on about aliens or AI
I come on here specifically to joust. To vent. To rant about annoyances and weird passions. To give my id free rein
Then I go back to normal life and act normally, my eerie dark energy expended
A good question about why we come here. In my case, for an idle chat with friends (all of you) and a long-term project to turn you all into Corbynites.
It's good to have lifetime projects .
But what do you do with your eerie dark energy? I do hope you have some.
First world problem: Royal Mail, in their wisdom have changed all our local post boxes to 9:00am collection (from 16:30, 12:00 on Saturday). This effectively means that we no longer have a next day delivery service from our rural area, not even with an expensive 1st class stamp and it adversely affects a number of local businesses.
There's been no consultation, no warning, no information - they've just changed the little time signs on the post-box.
I assume, as RM is a private company, there is no redress, no route to complain or to ask them to reconsider.
I thought about contacting our local councillor, who is generally very good, but what's the point, what can she do? If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be grateful.
Edit: From RM website:
Changing collection times Sometimes our postboxes can change to an earlier collection time, and the mail will be collected when a postman or woman is making their deliveries, usually in the morning.
We'll put a label on the postbox to let you know before we change it.
Anyone remember when we had a national mail service that collected twice a day from every postbox? Progress, eh!
Is this an example of the enshittification of Britain?
Enshittification is generally about extracting maximum value where there is no viable alternative, after you've cornered the market or have a captive userbase. So you can talk about the enshittification of Thames Water, but not really the post office, due to the many different delivery options available. Good luck getting a different water company to pipe water through to your house, or set up a breaking news service on a twitter clone with a userbase of 997 people, though. Enshittification = extracting maximum value from customers once they have nowhere else to go.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
Reading the link, they use a refrigerant with a higher boiling point (makes sense).
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
And Casino can wallow in steaming suds.
Makes sense. 250% is pretty good - as you posted elsewhere, if the the relative cost of gas energy to electrical energy increases over the next few years, as seems likely, these could start to look very attractive.
Conventional low temperature heat pumps make perfect sense for new-builds or really extensive renovations, but solutions like these could become a sensible drop-in replacement for today's gas boilers.
A sensible policy evolution would seem to be:
- Subsidise retrofitted insulation with a target of most homes roof and (where possible) cavity wall insulated by a target date - Liberalise planning rules to allow wood framed double glazing in conservation areas - Mandate Nordic levels of thermal efficiency in all new builds (while liberalising planning for new housebuilding) and low or zero carbon heating systems for these - use the tax system to incentivise switching to no/low carbon heating over time, eg scrappage schemes - Once low carbon alternatives including heat pumps are cost effective without subsidy, progressively raise emissions standards for domestic heating until traditional gas and oil become untenable
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
Reading the link, they use a refrigerant with a higher boiling point (makes sense).
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
And Casino can wallow in steaming suds.
Makes sense. 250% is pretty good - as you posted elsewhere, if the the relative cost of gas energy to electrical energy increases over the next few years, as seems likely, these could start to look very attractive.
Conventional low temperature heat pumps make perfect sense for new-builds or really extensive renovations, but solutions like these could become a sensible drop-in replacement for today's gas boilers.
A sensible policy evolution would seem to be:
- Subsidise retrofitted insulation with a target of most homes roof and (where possible) cavity wall insulated by a target date - Liberalise planning rules to allow wood framed double glazing in conservation areas - Mandate Nordic levels of thermal efficiency in all new builds (while liberalising planning for new housebuilding) and low or zero carbon heating systems for these - use the tax system to incentivise switching to no/low carbon heating over time, eg scrappage schemes - Once low carbon alternatives including heat pumps are cost effective without subsidy, progressively raise emissions standards for domestic heating until traditional gas and oil become untenable
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
Me too. Don't even *have* one.
Being a dishwasher, I hope, rather than a hand?
Yep, the appliance.
We do but it stands dormant. I suppose if we were to host a large social gathering it might get an outing. Nothing of that nature on the horizon though.
Reading through, PB is particularly combative today. I checked the moon cycles and I think it's because the full moon is nearly upon us. Plays havoc with toddlers and animals too.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
Reading the link, they use a refrigerant with a higher boiling point (makes sense).
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
And Casino can wallow in steaming suds.
Makes sense. 250% is pretty good - as you posted elsewhere, if the the relative cost of gas energy to electrical energy increases over the next few years, as seems likely, these could start to look very attractive.
Conventional low temperature heat pumps make perfect sense for new-builds or really extensive renovations, but solutions like these could become a sensible drop-in replacement for today's gas boilers.
A sensible policy evolution would seem to be:
- Subsidise retrofitted insulation with a target of most homes roof and (where possible) cavity wall insulated by a target date - Liberalise planning rules to allow wood framed double glazing in conservation areas - Mandate Nordic levels of thermal efficiency in all new builds (while liberalising planning for new housebuilding) and low or zero carbon heating systems for these - use the tax system to incentivise switching to no/low carbon heating over time, eg scrappage schemes - Once low carbon alternatives including heat pumps are cost effective without subsidy, progressively raise emissions standards for domestic heating until traditional gas and oil become untenable
Probably a project of a couple of decades.
Far too sensible.
Blown cavity wall insulation is a scandal in the making. I know it's an unpopular view here, but cavity walls were developed for a reason, and filling them up with material that compacts over time negates that reason.
Reading through, PB is particularly combative today. I checked the moon cycles and I think it's because the full moon is nearly upon us. Plays havoc with toddlers and animals too.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
Me too. Don't even *have* one.
Being a dishwasher, I hope, rather than a hand?
Yep, the appliance.
We do but it stands dormant. I suppose if we were to host a large social gathering it might get an outing. Nothing of that nature on the horizon though.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
Just googled it to reacquaint myself with the l facts
Amazing detail: after the war the French understandably wanted to put the SS butchers on trial - but the west German govt refused to extradite most of them
😶
It was worse than that, lots of the Germans were from Alsace and therefore french citizens post 45 and the Frebch Govt didnt want to put them on trial.
I used to work in the Haute Vienne not far from Oradour. The unions were total bastards, I often returned home with a better understanding of where the Das Reich were coming from.
Speaking of genocidal atrocities involving destruction of entire towns and villages, wonder how THIS incident from Florida history, is dealt with under the "educational" guidelines imposed by Gov. "Who Needs Mickey Mouse When You've Got" Ron DeSantis:
"The Rosewood massacre was a racially motivated massacre of black people and the destruction of a black town that took place during the first week of January 1923 in rural Levy County, Florida, United States. At least six black people and two white people were killed (in self-defense by one of the victims), but eyewitness accounts suggested a higher death toll of 27 to 150. The town of Rosewood was destroyed in what contemporary news reports characterized as a race riot.
Florida had an especially high number of lynchings of black men in the years before the massacre, including a well-publicized incident in December 1922."
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
You almost sound excited...
No. But it is fascinating in a satanically macabre way
I just checked. Auschwitz could NOT kill 23,000 in 2 days. At the very height of the Holocaust it is thought maybe 15,000 were dying every day - but that’s all the death camps working together. Auschwitz plus Belzec and Sobibor etc
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
Reading the link, they use a refrigerant with a higher boiling point (makes sense).
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
And Casino can wallow in steaming suds.
Makes sense. 250% is pretty good - as you posted elsewhere, if the the relative cost of gas energy to electrical energy increases over the next few years, as seems likely, these could start to look very attractive.
Conventional low temperature heat pumps make perfect sense for new-builds or really extensive renovations, but solutions like these could become a sensible drop-in replacement for today's gas boilers.
A sensible policy evolution would seem to be:
- Subsidise retrofitted insulation with a target of most homes roof and (where possible) cavity wall insulated by a target date - Liberalise planning rules to allow wood framed double glazing in conservation areas - Mandate Nordic levels of thermal efficiency in all new builds (while liberalising planning for new housebuilding) and low or zero carbon heating systems for these - use the tax system to incentivise switching to no/low carbon heating over time, eg scrappage schemes - Once low carbon alternatives including heat pumps are cost effective without subsidy, progressively raise emissions standards for domestic heating until traditional gas and oil become untenable
Probably a project of a couple of decades.
Focusing too much on retrofitting may be a false economy. We need a bit of the spirit of Japan and encourage complete rebuilding to modern standards. It would also be good for the economy.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
Reading the link, they use a refrigerant with a higher boiling point (makes sense).
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
And Casino can wallow in steaming suds.
Makes sense. 250% is pretty good - as you posted elsewhere, if the the relative cost of gas energy to electrical energy increases over the next few years, as seems likely, these could start to look very attractive.
Conventional low temperature heat pumps make perfect sense for new-builds or really extensive renovations, but solutions like these could become a sensible drop-in replacement for today's gas boilers.
A sensible policy evolution would seem to be:
- Subsidise retrofitted insulation with a target of most homes roof and (where possible) cavity wall insulated by a target date - Liberalise planning rules to allow wood framed double glazing in conservation areas - Mandate Nordic levels of thermal efficiency in all new builds (while liberalising planning for new housebuilding) and low or zero carbon heating systems for these - use the tax system to incentivise switching to no/low carbon heating over time, eg scrappage schemes - Once low carbon alternatives including heat pumps are cost effective without subsidy, progressively raise emissions standards for domestic heating until traditional gas and oil become untenable
Probably a project of a couple of decades.
Focusing too much on retrofitting may be a false economy. We need a bit of the spirit of Japan and encourage complete rebuilding to modern standards. It would also be good for the economy.
Two things:
(1) There are lots of terraces and semidetached homes in the UK. They aren't getting torn down. (2) There have been massive rises in the cost of building a property, and if everyone is trying to build replacement properties at the same time we're trying to build more new homes, then that problem is only going to get worse.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
Reading the link, they use a refrigerant with a higher boiling point (makes sense).
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
And Casino can wallow in steaming suds.
Makes sense. 250% is pretty good - as you posted elsewhere, if the the relative cost of gas energy to electrical energy increases over the next few years, as seems likely, these could start to look very attractive.
Conventional low temperature heat pumps make perfect sense for new-builds or really extensive renovations, but solutions like these could become a sensible drop-in replacement for today's gas boilers.
A sensible policy evolution would seem to be:
- Subsidise retrofitted insulation with a target of most homes roof and (where possible) cavity wall insulated by a target date - Liberalise planning rules to allow wood framed double glazing in conservation areas - Mandate Nordic levels of thermal efficiency in all new builds (while liberalising planning for new housebuilding) and low or zero carbon heating systems for these - use the tax system to incentivise switching to no/low carbon heating over time, eg scrappage schemes - Once low carbon alternatives including heat pumps are cost effective without subsidy, progressively raise emissions standards for domestic heating until traditional gas and oil become untenable
Probably a project of a couple of decades.
Far too sensible.
Blown cavity wall insulation is a scandal in the making. I know it's an unpopular view here, but cavity walls were developed for a reason, and filling them up with material that compacts over time negates that reason.
I do agree, cavity wall insulation done badly can seriously mess up a wall, but we have a workable system for pretty much any wall, but like most sectors there's enough cowboys to create a problem. It's like all alternative heating systems, there isn't a one size fits all answer.
If I had to bet on it, I'd say the cost of electricity is likely to come down significantly relative to that of gas over the next 5-10 years. That will also make the economics of replacement heat pumps look more attractive.
At the moment, it's an analogous situation to EVs. Well off early adopters, who are either performing extensive home renovations, or fitting out a new build, can get excellent results with existing technology.
Within the decade, it will become increasingly practical for those of us with a bit less dosh.
I'm interested in technology, but I'm not as much of an early adopter as my sister who bought an early Tesla Model S years ago. Instead I bought Tesla shares and at one time had made enough to buy a Model 3 but didn't, the profit then dropped with the share price but is now recovering. I'm happy with my 6 year old Golf GTE hybrid with 27 miles electric which gives me over 85% of my driving on electricity. Also no need for a charger, I use the granny cable and power in up overnight and once during the day. Still keeping up with electric cars, MG4 and BYD Dolphin look interesting, but still too much to spend on a car. Used Peugeot 208E quite reasonably priced.
Speaking of genocidal atrocities involving destruction of entire towns and villages, wonder how THIS incident from Florida history, is dealt with under the "educational" guidelines imposed by Gov. "Who Needs Mickey Mouse When You've Got" Ron DeSantis:
"The Rosewood massacre was a racially motivated massacre of black people and the destruction of a black town that took place during the first week of January 1923 in rural Levy County, Florida, United States. At least six black people and two white people were killed (in self-defense by one of the victims), but eyewitness accounts suggested a higher death toll of 27 to 150. The town of Rosewood was destroyed in what contemporary news reports characterized as a race riot.
Florida had an especially high number of lynchings of black men in the years before the massacre, including a well-publicized incident in December 1922."
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
The Khmer Rouge managed it with iron bars, as you have pointed out.
The gas chambers were set up to spare the killers the psychological distress of killing women and children, which reduced a lot of them to alcoholic wrecks. That said, guys like the Ustasha and Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger suffered no such distress at killing. They enjoyed their work.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
You almost sound excited...
No. But it is fascinating in a satanically macabre way
I just checked. Auschwitz could NOT kill 23,000 in 2 days. At the very height of the Holocaust it is thought maybe 15,000 were dying every day - but that’s all the death camps working together. Auschwitz plus Belzec and Sobibor etc
The Americans managed to kill 70,000 people in Hiroshima in a few seconds. I know it is not a death camp but the killing rate is equivalent to more than 600 million people per day. Since your list is titled "Mass extermination" Hiroshima should be No.1
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
Actually the first LEDs were expensive and rather shit.
They rapidly improved - colour, power in various package sizes, price.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
Some could; many couldn't, reportedly. That seems common to all genocides.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
Actually the first LEDs were expensive and rather shit.
They rapidly improved - colour, power in various package sizes, price.
Reading through, PB is particularly combative today. I checked the moon cycles and I think it's because the full moon is nearly upon us. Plays havoc with toddlers and animals too.
Speaking of genocidal atrocities involving destruction of entire towns and villages, wonder how THIS incident from Florida history, is dealt with under the "educational" guidelines imposed by Gov. "Who Needs Mickey Mouse When You've Got" Ron DeSantis:
"The Rosewood massacre was a racially motivated massacre of black people and the destruction of a black town that took place during the first week of January 1923 in rural Levy County, Florida, United States. At least six black people and two white people were killed (in self-defense by one of the victims), but eyewitness accounts suggested a higher death toll of 27 to 150. The town of Rosewood was destroyed in what contemporary news reports characterized as a race riot.
Florida had an especially high number of lynchings of black men in the years before the massacre, including a well-publicized incident in December 1922."
Bleak and horrifying, but not “genocidal”
You sound like the EU fanatics during the referendum bleating "it's not £350m! it's only £250m!"
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
Me too. Don't even *have* one.
Having great water supply and a dishwasher , and kettle boils in no time so none of these required.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
The Khmer Rouge managed it with iron bars, as you have pointed out.
The gas chambers were set up to spare the killers the psychological distress of killing women and children, which reduced a lot of them to alcoholic wrecks. That said, guys like the Ustasha and Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger suffered no such distress at killing. They enjoyed their work.
In Bloodlands Timothy Snyder describes one group of a few Nazis who did all the shooting in a small concrete chamber for month after month
They must have personally killed thousands each
I guess quite soon - if you retain your sanity - it’s like working in an abbatoir. A job. Messy and unpleasant work. But just a job
Reading through, PB is particularly combative today. I checked the moon cycles and I think it's because the full moon is nearly upon us. Plays havoc with toddlers and animals too.
You mean it is their "time of the month"?
How deliciously ironic
And America is a bit ahead of us afaicr, so Gardenwalker would be more affected than most.
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
Me too. Don't even *have* one.
Being a dishwasher, I hope, rather than a hand?
Yep, the appliance.
We do but it stands dormant. I suppose if we were to host a large social gathering it might get an outing. Nothing of that nature on the horizon though.
Speaking of genocidal atrocities involving destruction of entire towns and villages, wonder how THIS incident from Florida history, is dealt with under the "educational" guidelines imposed by Gov. "Who Needs Mickey Mouse When You've Got" Ron DeSantis:
"The Rosewood massacre was a racially motivated massacre of black people and the destruction of a black town that took place during the first week of January 1923 in rural Levy County, Florida, United States. At least six black people and two white people were killed (in self-defense by one of the victims), but eyewitness accounts suggested a higher death toll of 27 to 150. The town of Rosewood was destroyed in what contemporary news reports characterized as a race riot.
Florida had an especially high number of lynchings of black men in the years before the massacre, including a well-publicized incident in December 1922."
Bleak and horrifying, but not “genocidal”
Indeed debatable, but think that deliberate eradication of an entire community might just qualify.
Getting back to RDS, his enthusiasm for slavery is going over about as well, as his antipathy to Disney.
Speaking of genocidal atrocities involving destruction of entire towns and villages, wonder how THIS incident from Florida history, is dealt with under the "educational" guidelines imposed by Gov. "Who Needs Mickey Mouse When You've Got" Ron DeSantis:
"The Rosewood massacre was a racially motivated massacre of black people and the destruction of a black town that took place during the first week of January 1923 in rural Levy County, Florida, United States. At least six black people and two white people were killed (in self-defense by one of the victims), but eyewitness accounts suggested a higher death toll of 27 to 150. The town of Rosewood was destroyed in what contemporary news reports characterized as a race riot.
Florida had an especially high number of lynchings of black men in the years before the massacre, including a well-publicized incident in December 1922."
Bleak and horrifying, but not “genocidal”
You sound like the EU fanatics during the referendum bleating "it's not £350m! it's only £250m!"
I genuinely think it’s quite important to apply profound words like “genocide” in the right way. Do not dilute their impact and meaning
Because when a real Genocide comes along people will shrug at an overused term
Speaking of genocidal atrocities involving destruction of entire towns and villages, wonder how THIS incident from Florida history, is dealt with under the "educational" guidelines imposed by Gov. "Who Needs Mickey Mouse When You've Got" Ron DeSantis:
"The Rosewood massacre was a racially motivated massacre of black people and the destruction of a black town that took place during the first week of January 1923 in rural Levy County, Florida, United States. At least six black people and two white people were killed (in self-defense by one of the victims), but eyewitness accounts suggested a higher death toll of 27 to 150. The town of Rosewood was destroyed in what contemporary news reports characterized as a race riot.
Florida had an especially high number of lynchings of black men in the years before the massacre, including a well-publicized incident in December 1922."
Bleak and horrifying, but not “genocidal”
You sound like the EU fanatics during the referendum bleating "it's not £350m! it's only £250m!"
It always seems to be Florida. No wonder they call it Horrida.
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
Me too. Don't even *have* one.
Being a dishwasher, I hope, rather than a hand?
Yep, the appliance.
We do but it stands dormant. I suppose if we were to host a large social gathering it might get an outing. Nothing of that nature on the horizon though.
First world problem: Royal Mail, in their wisdom have changed all our local post boxes to 9:00am collection (from 16:30, 12:00 on Saturday). This effectively means that we no longer have a next day delivery service from our rural area, not even with an expensive 1st class stamp and it adversely affects a number of local businesses.
There's been no consultation, no warning, no information - they've just changed the little time signs on the post-box.
I assume, as RM is a private company, there is no redress, no route to complain or to ask them to reconsider.
I thought about contacting our local councillor, who is generally very good, but what's the point, what can she do? If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be grateful.
Edit: From RM website:
Changing collection times Sometimes our postboxes can change to an earlier collection time, and the mail will be collected when a postman or woman is making their deliveries, usually in the morning.
We'll put a label on the postbox to let you know before we change it.
Anyone remember when we had a national mail service that collected twice a day from every postbox? Progress, eh!
Is this an example of the enshittification of Britain?
Enshittification is generally about extracting maximum value where there is no viable alternative, after you've cornered the market or have a captive userbase. So you can talk about the enshittification of Thames Water, but not really the post office, due to the many different delivery options available. Good luck getting a different water company to pipe water through to your house, or set up a breaking news service on a twitter clone with a userbase of 997 people, though. Enshittification = extracting maximum value from customers once they have nowhere else to go.
Complaining about the lack of next-day postal delivery is akin to bemoaning the loss of red phone boxes or the difficulty of finding an inn where you can exchange your weary horse. Such services only function economically when there's sufficient demand to cover the fixed cost. As adjunct to an individual retro lifestyle they become impossibly expensive and eventually wither away.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
You almost sound excited...
No. But it is fascinating in a satanically macabre way
I just checked. Auschwitz could NOT kill 23,000 in 2 days. At the very height of the Holocaust it is thought maybe 15,000 were dying every day - but that’s all the death camps working together. Auschwitz plus Belzec and Sobibor etc
The Americans managed to kill 70,000 people in Hiroshima in a few seconds. I know it is not a death camp but the killing rate is equivalent to more than 600 million people per day. Since your list is titled "Mass extermination" Hiroshima should be No.1
I once had a chance to go to Hiroshima - exes paid. I turned it down coz I was pursuing girls in kyoto bars
I deeply regret it now. It reinforced my lifetime motto: always say Yes
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
Me too. Don't even *have* one.
Being a dishwasher, I hope, rather than a hand?
Yep, the appliance.
We do but it stands dormant. I suppose if we were to host a large social gathering it might get an outing. Nothing of that nature on the horizon though.
Speaking of genocidal atrocities involving destruction of entire towns and villages, wonder how THIS incident from Florida history, is dealt with under the "educational" guidelines imposed by Gov. "Who Needs Mickey Mouse When You've Got" Ron DeSantis:
"The Rosewood massacre was a racially motivated massacre of black people and the destruction of a black town that took place during the first week of January 1923 in rural Levy County, Florida, United States. At least six black people and two white people were killed (in self-defense by one of the victims), but eyewitness accounts suggested a higher death toll of 27 to 150. The town of Rosewood was destroyed in what contemporary news reports characterized as a race riot.
Florida had an especially high number of lynchings of black men in the years before the massacre, including a well-publicized incident in December 1922."
Bleak and horrifying, but not “genocidal”
You sound like the EU fanatics during the referendum bleating "it's not £350m! it's only £250m!"
I genuinely think it’s quite important to apply profound words like “genocide” in the right way. Do not dilute their impact and meaning
Because when a real Genocide comes along people will shrug at an overused term
The latest fad for the rich(er) is to have a special tap for drinking water in the kitchen (descaling, filtration), and a special boiling water tap. Sometimes these are combined (different modes on the same tap), but often separate
The idea of having a tap of scalding-hot water is absolutely bonkers. I understand why kitchen suppliers try to sell them, but I can't for the life of me see why anyone is so unaware as to buy one.
Boil exactly as much water as you need, rapidly.
That is what a kettle is for. They even come with markings up the side - 1 cup, 2 cups, 3 cups, etc...
Once you are used them, boiling taps are quicker and easier. No filling kettle etc. just press the button until you have the amount of boiling water you need.
No. It;'s a fad surely. The answer: drinking water: living in most of Northern England/Scotland solves it usually. Boiling water: kettle. When broken buy a new one.
Dishwashers were a fad once
Still are imo. Doing the dishes (properly, mindfully) gives a sense of achievement. Especially if you do little else of practical value with your hands - which is the case for me.
Me too. Don't even *have* one.
Being a dishwasher, I hope, rather than a hand?
Yep, the appliance.
We do but it stands dormant. I suppose if we were to host a large social gathering it might get an outing. Nothing of that nature on the horizon though.
First world problem: Royal Mail, in their wisdom have changed all our local post boxes to 9:00am collection (from 16:30, 12:00 on Saturday). This effectively means that we no longer have a next day delivery service from our rural area, not even with an expensive 1st class stamp and it adversely affects a number of local businesses.
There's been no consultation, no warning, no information - they've just changed the little time signs on the post-box.
I assume, as RM is a private company, there is no redress, no route to complain or to ask them to reconsider.
I thought about contacting our local councillor, who is generally very good, but what's the point, what can she do? If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be grateful.
Edit: From RM website:
Changing collection times Sometimes our postboxes can change to an earlier collection time, and the mail will be collected when a postman or woman is making their deliveries, usually in the morning.
We'll put a label on the postbox to let you know before we change it.
Anyone remember when we had a national mail service that collected twice a day from every postbox? Progress, eh!
Is this an example of the enshittification of Britain?
Enshittification is generally about extracting maximum value where there is no viable alternative, after you've cornered the market or have a captive userbase. So you can talk about the enshittification of Thames Water, but not really the post office, due to the many different delivery options available. Good luck getting a different water company to pipe water through to your house, or set up a breaking news service on a twitter clone with a userbase of 997 people, though. Enshittification = extracting maximum value from customers once they have nowhere else to go.
Complaining about the lack of next-day postal delivery is akin to bemoaning the loss of red phone boxes or the difficulty of finding an inn where you can exchange your weary horse. Such services only function economically when there's sufficient demand to cover the fixed cost. As adjunct to an individual retro lifestyle they become impossibly expensive and eventually wither away.
It's a serious issue for rural businesses relying on mail order. Couriers may be unreliable or nonexistent (much of Scotland) - they don't have to provide a universal service.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
You almost sound excited...
No. But it is fascinating in a satanically macabre way
I just checked. Auschwitz could NOT kill 23,000 in 2 days. At the very height of the Holocaust it is thought maybe 15,000 were dying every day - but that’s all the death camps working together. Auschwitz plus Belzec and Sobibor etc
The Americans managed to kill 70,000 people in Hiroshima in a few seconds. I know it is not a death camp but the killing rate is equivalent to more than 600 million people per day. Since your list is titled "Mass extermination" Hiroshima should be No.1
I once had a chance to go to Hiroshima - exes paid. I turned it down coz I was pursuing girls in kyoto bars
I deeply regret it now. It reinforced my lifetime motto: always say Yes
Me and my middle lad were in the beginning of sorting out a trip to Pripyat/Chernobyl just before the war. Not sure that will ever happen now.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
When LED lights came on the market the technology was 95% developed and it made absolute sense to change from Flourescent fittings to LEDs immediately. They are cheap, reliable and a mouse in a wheel could power them. Heat Pumps are only currently 20-30% developed and Im sure that the technology will improve over the next 10 years. I work for a company that fits them and at the moment we would not recommend them as they do not deliver what the end user expects leading to complaints eg I spent 18k on this system and Im cold
One of the issues initially with LED lights was the marketings around this LED bulb is equivalent to a 30w this one is equivalent to a 50w...and basically they were bullshitting in order to overstate things.
Then of course the public whacked in their supposed like for like replacement and went WTF its nowhere near as bright, this LED light technology is bollocks. What you needed to do was by the next power level up.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
You almost sound excited...
No. But it is fascinating in a satanically macabre way
I just checked. Auschwitz could NOT kill 23,000 in 2 days. At the very height of the Holocaust it is thought maybe 15,000 were dying every day - but that’s all the death camps working together. Auschwitz plus Belzec and Sobibor etc
The Americans managed to kill 70,000 people in Hiroshima in a few seconds. I know it is not a death camp but the killing rate is equivalent to more than 600 million people per day. Since your list is titled "Mass extermination" Hiroshima should be No.1
I once had a chance to go to Hiroshima - exes paid. I turned it down coz I was pursuing girls in kyoto bars
I deeply regret it now. It reinforced my lifetime motto: always say Yes
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
Reading the link, they use a refrigerant with a higher boiling point (makes sense).
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
And Casino can wallow in steaming suds.
Makes sense. 250% is pretty good - as you posted elsewhere, if the the relative cost of gas energy to electrical energy increases over the next few years, as seems likely, these could start to look very attractive.
Conventional low temperature heat pumps make perfect sense for new-builds or really extensive renovations, but solutions like these could become a sensible drop-in replacement for today's gas boilers.
A sensible policy evolution would seem to be:
- Subsidise retrofitted insulation with a target of most homes roof and (where possible) cavity wall insulated by a target date - Liberalise planning rules to allow wood framed double glazing in conservation areas - Mandate Nordic levels of thermal efficiency in all new builds (while liberalising planning for new housebuilding) and low or zero carbon heating systems for these - use the tax system to incentivise switching to no/low carbon heating over time, eg scrappage schemes - Once low carbon alternatives including heat pumps are cost effective without subsidy, progressively raise emissions standards for domestic heating until traditional gas and oil become untenable
Probably a project of a couple of decades.
Far too sensible.
Blown cavity wall insulation is a scandal in the making. I know it's an unpopular view here, but cavity walls were developed for a reason, and filling them up with material that compacts over time negates that reason.
I do agree, cavity wall insulation done badly can seriously mess up a wall, but we have a workable system for pretty much any wall, but like most sectors there's enough cowboys to create a problem. It's like all alternative heating systems, there isn't a one size fits all answer.
That's fair enough; bad installers will create problems sooner. But we have little clue how many of these products will behave in fifty years, let alone one hundred. Blaming it all on bad installation might be ignoring other issues.
Incidentally, I did not know until recently that cavity wall spacing is set into zones in the UK; they have to be wider in the wetter (generally western) parts, and can be narrower in the drier parts. I'd always assumed the gap had to be the same throughout the UK.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
You almost sound excited...
No. But it is fascinating in a satanically macabre way
I just checked. Auschwitz could NOT kill 23,000 in 2 days. At the very height of the Holocaust it is thought maybe 15,000 were dying every day - but that’s all the death camps working together. Auschwitz plus Belzec and Sobibor etc
The Americans managed to kill 70,000 people in Hiroshima in a few seconds. I know it is not a death camp but the killing rate is equivalent to more than 600 million people per day. Since your list is titled "Mass extermination" Hiroshima should be No.1
I once had a chance to go to Hiroshima - exes paid. I turned it down coz I was pursuing girls in kyoto bars
I deeply regret it now. It reinforced my lifetime motto: always say Yes
Are you an inveterate self-mythologizer?
Er, what? I’m just telling a very minor true story which taught me - or underlined - a wider truth. Life is short. Never turn down travel or sex
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
You almost sound excited...
No. But it is fascinating in a satanically macabre way
I just checked. Auschwitz could NOT kill 23,000 in 2 days. At the very height of the Holocaust it is thought maybe 15,000 were dying every day - but that’s all the death camps working together. Auschwitz plus Belzec and Sobibor etc
The Americans managed to kill 70,000 people in Hiroshima in a few seconds. I know it is not a death camp but the killing rate is equivalent to more than 600 million people per day. Since your list is titled "Mass extermination" Hiroshima should be No.1
I once had a chance to go to Hiroshima - exes paid. I turned it down coz I was pursuing girls in kyoto bars
I deeply regret it now. It reinforced my lifetime motto: always say Yes
Me and my middle lad were in the beginning of sorting out a trip to Pripyat/Chernobyl just before the war. Not sure that will ever happen now.
Some friends of mine went to Pripyat on their honeymoon. Yes, they are nuts.
I think Uxbridge was the catalyst that sparked a whole new narrative not only about the ULEZ scheme but the rush to green policies that many cannot afford and especially with the cost of living crisis
Evs are not affordable for millions, heat pumps are not only unaffordable but in many cases not practical, requiring properties to have a 'c' efficiency rating to be sold is also unaffordable for many, and our 2030 ban on ICE cars is silly when the EU is 2035
I have no idea whether Sunak will benefit from his obvious move to differentiate from Labour, but there are 35 million motorists in the UK who are an important group politicially and indeed the Sun is taking up their cause judging by today's front page
Another one with “heat pump denialism”.
Silly comment just as is saying NZ is used in 50% homes in NZ ( actual figure is 40%) when properties in NZ are very different to the UK
This from the Guardian confirms the high cost and uncertainties chills the heat pump market
Can someone explain why electric boilers can't work instead of heat pumps? Much less disruptive in UK homes where space is very limited.
Electric boilers are only ~98% efficient but heat pumps are 200% - 400% efficient as they are using energy to transfer heat from the external environment into the house rather generating heat directly.
We comprehensively concluded on here yesterday that heat pumps are shit unless you have a Grand Designs Scandi-noir cum Roman villa home, which funnily enough most people don't.
I can earnestly assure you that my 88-yo father does no live in a “scandi-noir cum villa”.
He lives in a 1950s wooden bungalow. And he has a heat pump. And, shock, a mixer tap.
Get into the 21st century, FFS. I thought you worked in engineering. No wonder HS2 is fucked, if this is the level of ambition.
I didn't work on HS2, and look at posts from the other day on precisely the problems with that.
We comprehensively debated and fisked all the problems with heat pumps on here the other day.
They move heat from one place to another, they don't generate it, and are crap except for equilibrium warming to modest modal temperatures, and require very high quality insulation to do even they. Extremely cold snap or a hot bath? Forget it.
Why do you keep repeating this rubbish?
Who cares where the heat comes from so long as it ends up in the home? Generated or moved, it’s the same heat.
& they work fine if specced correctly. Builders failing to spec heating installs is (sadly) not an unusual problem in the UK, but it is a solvable one.
Scientific fact is rubbish? Interesting that's the depth of your intellect.
Heat pumps move heat from outside the home to inside the home. Because they move it and don't generate it the heat is naturally limiting. In other words, there's a limit to how much kJ of energy it can pump, given the ambient air temperature, and the lower the outside temperature the lower that will be. Further, it will tend to "leach" out again unless the heat insulation is very good. That's air to air. If you do air to water then you might get some heat into the radiators but not a lot and converting it into hot water - for a decent bath - is also going to be very disappointing unless you immersion heat it with electricity on top.
These are all facts. Seemingly, beyond your comprehension.
Do you not trust fridges, freezers and air conditioning units then to do their job either then? if not why not?
Most people are not early adopters, and don't understand science. They do understand anecdotal evidence and what other people do. Fridges are not as issue because they work and don't cost much. The bloke in the pub doesn't keep saying they are rubbish.
Heats pump technology is not cheap and even I, uninterested in the entire subject, can tell you stories I hear about how they are unsightly, noisy, complicated expensive and don't work.
But Casino is not most people. He’s a professional engineer.
And yet he professes to be adamantly against a technology widely used by neighbouring countries (and NZ, whose climate is v similar to Britain’s).
And it seems to be indicative of a wider mistrust of modernity in general.
I’ve no doubt that it is not 100% straightforward to install a £10,000 heat pump. The question is why they should trigger such stubborn dismissal.
I have addressed all these points on here today (just for your benefit) in addition to us running through them all exhaustively on here yesterday.
You're more interested in running a Twitter trolling outfit than engaging with them.
As a heat pump newbie, I will leave it to others to hold forth on the high temperature heat pump described here
Looks good to me, of course there is a downside "You can expect to pay around 25% more for a high temperature heat pump, which equates to £2,500, on average. However, this is a new market, and we’re confident that prices will come down in the near future as more British homes embrace the technology." It would save a lot of ongoing fuel costs.
New technology is expensive and does drop with greater use. If there is a political will and support they could take off.
Other makes are available. Here are some high temperature heat pump manufacturers Shanghai Highly (Group) Co., Ltd. Siemens Power Genereration T Termogamma Energy Solutions Z Zudek SRL Samsung Panasonic LG Mitsubishi Electric
Thanks. Interesting spec.
Of course, if new technology comes along that delivers the same performance a gas at a reasonable price then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy a new heat pump.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm just not blindly swallowing the propaganda until they've been proven in British homes.
I would guess that the efficiency is lower (theoretically it should be, unless they've done something really clever). That's fine if you're looking at it versus electric heating (anything over 100% efficient makes sense) but versus gas you need to be, IIRC, somewhere around 300%+ to be competitive due to the cheapness of gas per kWh versus electricity per kWh.
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
Reading the link, they use a refrigerant with a higher boiling point (makes sense).
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
And Casino can wallow in steaming suds.
Makes sense. 250% is pretty good - as you posted elsewhere, if the the relative cost of gas energy to electrical energy increases over the next few years, as seems likely, these could start to look very attractive.
Conventional low temperature heat pumps make perfect sense for new-builds or really extensive renovations, but solutions like these could become a sensible drop-in replacement for today's gas boilers.
A sensible policy evolution would seem to be:
- Subsidise retrofitted insulation with a target of most homes roof and (where possible) cavity wall insulated by a target date - Liberalise planning rules to allow wood framed double glazing in conservation areas - Mandate Nordic levels of thermal efficiency in all new builds (while liberalising planning for new housebuilding) and low or zero carbon heating systems for these - use the tax system to incentivise switching to no/low carbon heating over time, eg scrappage schemes - Once low carbon alternatives including heat pumps are cost effective without subsidy, progressively raise emissions standards for domestic heating until traditional gas and oil become untenable
Probably a project of a couple of decades.
Focusing too much on retrofitting may be a false economy. We need a bit of the spirit of Japan and encourage complete rebuilding to modern standards. It would also be good for the economy.
From memory there are 26 million households in England and Wales.
TEN BEST DEATH CAMPS/SITES OF MASS EXTERMINATION (that I’ve visited)
In reverse order
10. Srebrenica 9. That village in France 8. Solovetsky islands 7. Kamanets Podolskiy 6. St Petersburg in toto 5. Teotihuacan 4. Tuol sleng 3. Japanese occupied China 2. Cheoung Ek
And yet again. For the 78th year running. Still way out in front. The death camp that “has it all”. The nation’s favourite
1. Auschwitz
Probably won’t ever be beaten?
9. is Oradour-sur-Glane, never just 'that village in France' please.
And, the most disturbing thing about Oradour? The fact that it stands out as an atrocity in France.
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
That's fair. It's a moving and instructive place to visit though.
The level of cruelty in the East defies belief. Count Tolstoy gave Harold Macmillan and Lord Aldington lot of stick over the repatriations at Klagenfurt and Bleiburg.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
Where I’ve just been. Kamanets Podilskyi. How many people have heard of it?
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
You almost sound excited...
No. But it is fascinating in a satanically macabre way
I just checked. Auschwitz could NOT kill 23,000 in 2 days. At the very height of the Holocaust it is thought maybe 15,000 were dying every day - but that’s all the death camps working together. Auschwitz plus Belzec and Sobibor etc
The Americans managed to kill 70,000 people in Hiroshima in a few seconds. I know it is not a death camp but the killing rate is equivalent to more than 600 million people per day. Since your list is titled "Mass extermination" Hiroshima should be No.1
I once had a chance to go to Hiroshima - exes paid. I turned it down coz I was pursuing girls in kyoto bars
I deeply regret it now. It reinforced my lifetime motto: always say Yes
Are you an inveterate self-mythologizer?
He's actually a self-abusing junky, and the last thirty years - indeed all of PB - are just his hazy drug-induced hallucinations as he lies asleep in a ditch on a South American mountain ...
Comments
You can't just read across 1:1 as it's too superficial.
Good post.
It's good to have lifetime projects
Economic viability of such systems depends on the costs of electricity and gas over lifetime (plus installation costs)
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/car-industry-news/2022/03/07/car-headlights-too-bright-as-drivers-increasingly-dazzled
https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/1686368759835922432
I am not 100% convinced that all of the RICO cases Fani Willis has brought are entirely well founded.
But in the Trump Georgia case, it might well be appropriate.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-south/georgias-broad-racketeering-law-may-now-ensnare-donald-trump
You're sceptical of heat pumps and that's fine. They aren't suited for every situation, I'm the first to admit. But they do actually work.
In terms of the energy costs the heat pump is typically giving 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electricity it uses. In the world where electricity costs 3 times as much per kWh as gas, they will cost the same amount to run (ignoring capital and servicing costs - servicing not really required for a heat pump).
"The Daikin Altherma 3 H HT air source heat pump can provide water with temperatures up to 70°C – the same level as gas boilers – and can work when it’s as cold as -28°C outside.
Inside your home, Daikin allows you to choose between getting a wall-mounted unit and a separate hot water cylinder (a setup that will be familiar to most gas boiler owners), or a single, floor-standing unit with an integrated hot water cylinder.
Brands such as ICAX and Pure Thermal also offer high temperature heat pumps, but not for domestic use – unless you live in Buckingham Palace.
However, another competitor is set to enter the UK market, in the shape of Vattenfall, a company owned by the Swedish state. Its machines are being rolled out in a Netherlands pilot this year, before potentially reaching the UK next year.
A Vattenfall spokesperson told us their high temperature heat pump could reach 60°C to 80°C, which would put it at the same level as Daikin’s machine, as well as gas boilers."
As with electric cars, I will wait until an ASHP makes sense for my situation. Government policies can make a difference with incentives and the prices will inevitably fall with greater numbers produced and competition.
He insisted on buying up half the stock of old-school light-bulbs at from a wholesaler. Haven't seen him for years - wonder how he feels about those proto-Woke LEDs today!
I think people need to hear the words “this technology is coming and you are absolutely free to upgrade or install now if you want, but over the next decade we expect there to be further improvements and we’ll work with manufacturers to understand how best we can tailor these to different property types and where necessary effect legislative change to make sure all situations are catered for.”
Of course instead we just get deadlines and tumbleweed.
Perhaps @BlancheLivermore knows more about this and could explain?
In terms of efficiency, they claim 2.5W (vs 3W from the cooler competition) of heating for every 1W of electric consumption, so yes, less efficient. On the upside, much more sensible to retrofit to existing heating systems, as you can keep most of the plumbing without modification.
And Casino can wallow in steaming suds.
You didn't need to replace your radiators, windows and double the thickness of your walls to be able to use LEDs for lighting. No amount of development of heat pumps is going to change that they will work badly in a poorly insulated house with old radiators.
The problem is that British homes have always been built very badly in terms of heat retention. The country has been talking about retrofitting better insulation for decades. Progress has been slow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane
That will also make the economics of replacement heat pumps look more attractive.
At the moment, it's an analogous situation to EVs.
Well off early adopters, who are either performing extensive home renovations, or fitting out a new build, can get excellent results with existing technology.
Within the decade, it will become increasingly practical for those of us with a bit less dosh.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See
In Eastern Europe, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Oradour's, and in most cases, only the locals remember them.
Just googled it to reacquaint myself with the l facts
Amazing detail: after the war the French understandably wanted to put the SS butchers on trial - but the west German govt refused to extradite most of them
😶
Conventional low temperature heat pumps make perfect sense for new-builds or really extensive renovations, but solutions like these could become a sensible drop-in replacement for today's gas boilers.
I am sure she loved the gift though.
After reading about the activities of SS Cossacks, and the Ustasha, I think the British Army showed immense restraint not to shoot them on the spot.
A jumper and open fire works well in older houses, mind!
- Subsidise retrofitted insulation with a target of most homes roof and (where possible) cavity wall insulated by a target date
- Liberalise planning rules to allow wood framed double glazing in conservation areas
- Mandate Nordic levels of thermal efficiency in all new builds (while liberalising planning for new housebuilding) and low or zero carbon heating systems for these
- use the tax system to incentivise switching to no/low carbon heating over time, eg scrappage schemes
- Once low carbon alternatives including heat pumps are cost effective without subsidy, progressively raise emissions standards for domestic heating until traditional gas and oil become untenable
Probably a project of a couple of decades.
Yet it was the first big Aktion of the Final Solution. In just two days the einsatzgruppen marched 23,000 Jews to bomb craters at the edge of town, and forced them to strip and then shot them dead. Piling the corpses like layer cakes. Line after line after line
23,000. In 2 days. How do you even do that? I wonder if auschwitz at full blast could kill that many in 48 hours
Have you considered the opportunity to repurpose it as a cooking appliance?
(No, I haven't tried this because, well, it be well minging, innit?)
I used to work in the Haute Vienne not far from Oradour. The unions were total bastards, I often returned home with a better understanding of where the Das Reich were coming from.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood_massacre
"The Rosewood massacre was a racially motivated massacre of black people and the destruction of a black town that took place during the first week of January 1923 in rural Levy County, Florida, United States. At least six black people and two white people were killed (in self-defense by one of the victims), but eyewitness accounts suggested a higher death toll of 27 to 150. The town of Rosewood was destroyed in what contemporary news reports characterized as a race riot.
Florida had an especially high number of lynchings of black men in the years before the massacre, including a well-publicized incident in December 1922."
I just checked. Auschwitz could NOT kill 23,000 in 2 days. At the very height of the Holocaust it is thought maybe 15,000 were dying every day - but that’s all the death camps working together. Auschwitz plus Belzec and Sobibor etc
(1) There are lots of terraces and semidetached homes in the UK. They aren't getting torn down.
(2) There have been massive rises in the cost of building a property, and if everyone is trying to build replacement properties at the same time we're trying to build more new homes, then that problem is only going to get worse.
I'm happy with my 6 year old Golf GTE hybrid with 27 miles electric which gives me over 85% of my driving on electricity. Also no need for a charger, I use the granny cable and power in up overnight and once during the day. Still keeping up with electric cars, MG4 and BYD Dolphin look interesting, but still too much to spend on a car. Used Peugeot 208E quite reasonably priced.
The gas chambers were set up to spare the killers the psychological distress of killing women and children, which reduced a lot of them to alcoholic wrecks. That said, guys like the Ustasha and Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger suffered no such distress at killing. They enjoyed their work.
They rapidly improved - colour, power in various package sizes, price.
They are now a no brainer.
That seems common to all genocides.
There were also Soviet massacres there, reported by Time magazine in 1927 - years before Holodomor.
https://web.archive.org/web/20081029063746/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,737074,00.html
How deliciously ironic
They must have personally killed thousands each
I guess quite soon - if you retain your sanity - it’s like working in an abbatoir. A job. Messy and unpleasant work. But just a job
Getting back to RDS, his enthusiasm for slavery is going over about as well, as his antipathy to Disney.
Because when a real Genocide comes along people will shrug at an overused term
Same with “racist” and “fascist” etc
I deeply regret it now. It reinforced my lifetime motto: always say Yes
Then of course the public whacked in their supposed like for like replacement and went WTF its nowhere near as bright, this LED light technology is bollocks. What you needed to do was by the next power level up.
Incidentally, I did not know until recently that cavity wall spacing is set into zones in the UK; they have to be wider in the wetter (generally western) parts, and can be narrower in the drier parts. I'd always assumed the gap had to be the same throughout the UK.