On private schools, I note their defenders are keen to point out how much fees have increased over the last 20/30 years.
It is worth noting, however, that the salaries of the top 10% of earners, those most likely to avail themselves of a private education, have also increased at a very rapid rate over the last 20/30 years. They've been doing very well for themselves.
These tax breaks are particularly vital for small private day school fees. They remember do not get the funding big, ancient public boarding schools get from super rich parents the world over. Nor do they get the taxpayer funding state schools do.
Not only would scrapping tax relief and charitable status for private schools reduce parental choice therefore, it would also reduce scholarships in private schools, making them even more exclusive. Plus add to the taxpayer funds needed for additional state school pupils.
I would be furious if any Tory leader joined Starmer in such an un Conservative policy and would push for their removal immediately. Thankfully Rishi is not going down that route and fully supports charitable status for private schools as well as donating to his old alma mater of Winchester for bursaries and scholarships.
Note too a recent ISC Public First poll contradicts Yougov and found just 37% wanted to remove private schools tax relief. 48% wanted them to keep that tax relief, broken down by 30% for keeping it by increasing the amount done for public benefit eg sharing facilities and 18% wanting to keep the tax relief regardless.
I am shocked TSE would consider backing such a class war policy. Without his private education and Cambridge degree he might not have ever become a senior compliance person writing PB headers!
Thousands more can apply to become judges under plans to expand diversity
The move will increase the number of judicial roles that legal professionals from under-represented groups can apply for – better reflecting modern, multi-cultural, twenty-first century Britain.
Not High Court, Court of Appeal or Supreme Court though
I just looked up my alma mater - the fees are up almost exactly 10x since I was there three decades ago.
£15k a year for a day school, plus lunches and transport. You need to earn £25k per child, plus your mortgage, to do that now.
It's moved from something that was possible for the lower middle class to something only the rich can afford, with I expect the less well off pupils being replaced by overseas parents wanting the best education for their child.
So I expect VAT on fees would actually raise income.
Surely the overseas students’ parents, mostly of boarders, would find a way to claim the VAT back through a business or an export agreement? With boarding fees approaching £50k, two kids means you’ve got £20k to spend on the lawyers and the company setup.
I think you just set the rules similar to cars where you can't claim it back within a company structure.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
Everyone is always saying spend more money, whether education, justice,immigration or the NHS. Never any suggestions where that money comes from. I suspect if we had 100% tax rates for all and all our income went to the state that there would still be people rightly saying these things are still underfunded.
When you have x income you prioritize spending so it comes to no more than x.
If you cannot provide a health service, if you cannot educate the next generation, if you cannot enforce and adjudicate on matters of law - you aren't a functioning state: you're a mode of making sure capital funnels upwards. The point of modern society is the acceptance that there is a base line experience all people should have, and we aren't currently meeting that standard.
MMT people argue when you control your own currency you don't need income to control spending, and taxation is there to deal with inflation rather than balancing the books. I'm not a great economics understander, but at the end of the day individuals and corporations are making huge profits and they get to see the benefits, not average people - I'd prefer to see a world where it was the other way around. I don't think anyone needs a billion pounds, for example: 100% tax rate after that is fine by me. Hell, after half a billion. Either companies would have to invest it in other things, or the state will use it. We should also target wealth better rather than just income - land, dividends, stocks etc.
In fact we do all of those (do them better than most places). We just don't do them as well as we ought, or well as we would wish.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
On private schools, I note their defenders are keen to point out how much fees have increased over the last 20/30 years.
It is worth noting, however, that the salaries of the top 10% of earners, those most likely to avail themselves of a private education, have also increased at a very rapid rate over the last 20/30 years. They've been doing very well for themselves.
I did point that out but I think you need to reread my posts. I wasn't defending private schools with that observation.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
Everyone is always saying spend more money, whether education, justice,immigration or the NHS. Never any suggestions where that money comes from. I suspect if we had 100% tax rates for all and all our income went to the state that there would still be people rightly saying these things are still underfunded.
When you have x income you prioritize spending so it comes to no more than x.
You prioritise. Education would be at the top of my list.
I just looked up my alma mater - the fees are up almost exactly 10x since I was there three decades ago.
£15k a year for a day school, plus lunches and transport. You need to earn £25k per child, plus your mortgage, to do that now.
It's moved from something that was possible for the lower middle class to something only the rich can afford, with I expect the less well off pupils being replaced by overseas parents wanting the best education for their child.
So I expect VAT on fees would actually raise income.
I suspect that, at least as the domestic market is concerned, fees have been mostly funded by remortgages and legacies in recent years. That eventually approaches a limit, that can’t be too far away.
The overseas market is aimed at the very top boarding schools, and different economics apply there.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
I certainly didn't send my son private so really got no skin in the game. I also don't regret that. However I do think if private schools were abolished the net results would be worse education for the bottom 80% as rich parents find ways to shoehorn kids into the good stateschools at the expense of their kids
FPT I'm totally unconvinced that the story about the BBC presenter and the alleged underage child, is all some wicked plot on the part of the Conservatives. BBC News has been giving maximum publicity to this, not just The Sun.
Not just BBC News and The Sun, most of the media has been covering it prominently.
There's a story if this guy was paying a 17 year old, legally a child, for indecent pictures. There's a story if it is grooming or a power imbalance being abused. The power imbalance was certainly something that was core to the allegations against Pip.
If it is two consenting adults, which is where it seems to be heading, then I cannot see why it is such an issue.
Although in essence it doesn't really go from 'terrible' to 'ok' based on the young person being 17 or 18.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
I certainly didn't send my son private so really got no
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
Everyone is always saying spend more money, whether education, justice,immigration or the NHS. Never any suggestions where that money comes from. I suspect if we had 100% tax rates for all and all our income went to the state that there would still be people rightly saying these things are still underfunded.
When you have x income you prioritize spending so it comes to no more than x.
You prioritise. Education would be at the top of my list.
You might to be surprised to find I agree. no 2 is defence no 3 is justice no 4 is health
I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.
Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
Except you look at the areas where the Government spends money and none of them are in a position where cuts can be made..
Which is why I argue we need to reduce the number of area's the government spends money.
I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.
Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
Except you look at the areas where the Government spends money and none of them are in a position where cuts can be made..
Which is why I argue we need to reduce the number of area's the government spends money.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
I certainly didn't send my son private so really got no skin in the game. I also don't regret that. However I do think if private schools were abolished the net results would be worse education for the bottom 80% as rich parents find ways to shoehorn kids into the good stateschools at the expense of their kids
There are already complaints about rich parents transferring their kids to the 6th form at the local Free School - no fees, plus tutoring*, plus being able to claim state school priority in admissions.
Elbowing out the needy is the term used.
*Without private education, back to the really old days, when the posh were tutored. 3 Levels = 3 tutors. Cut the cost by sharing between a couple of parents (already happens). a few hours a week plus lots of set work....
Charitable status for schools should depend upon the school's purposes and public benefit, using common sense.
It seems to me that most private schools most of the time, excellent though they are, don't primarily exist to provide education on a basis in which ability to pay is a secondary consideration. For most, most of the time, ability to pay is primary. (Of course all schools have exceptions, and some some so much so that they are proper charities).
In ordinary Joe Public language that isn't a charitable purpose. It would be like a religion which usually rather than exceptionally charged the public to attend its services, and usually excluded the poor from its primary activity. (Which IIRC would render it not charitable if it were a religion).
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
Au contraire! Private education has given intellectual titans like Boris, JRM, Cleverly, Braverman, .... errr...
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
We all benefit from our betters going to private schools to prepare them for the top jobs in politics, law, medicine, the civil service, finance, media, journalism etc.
Imagine what it would be like without all their public school expertise running the country so well!
FPT I'm totally unconvinced that the story about the BBC presenter and the alleged underage child, is all some wicked plot on the part of the Conservatives. BBC News has been giving maximum publicity to this, not just The Sun.
Not just BBC News and The Sun, most of the media has been covering it prominently.
There's a story if this guy was paying a 17 year old, legally a child, for indecent pictures. There's a story if it is grooming or a power imbalance being abused. The power imbalance was certainly something that was core to the allegations against Pip.
If it is two consenting adults, which is where it seems to be heading, then I cannot see why it is such an issue.
Although in essence it doesn't really go from 'terrible' to 'ok' based on the young person being 17 or 18.
I'm more concerned by the abusive messages he sent than any payments for pictures or sexual activity personally. Indicates a nasty side, a man that doesn't want to get caught and fundamentally that points to dishonesty. I know plenty of people who are into non conventional relationships (Not me fwiw) and above all they're honest with their partners and the outside world.
On private schools, I note their defenders are keen to point out how much fees have increased over the last 20/30 years.
It is worth noting, however, that the salaries of the top 10% of earners, those most likely to avail themselves of a private education, have also increased at a very rapid rate over the last 20/30 years. They've been doing very well for themselves.
I did point that out but I think you need to reread my posts. I wasn't defending private schools with that observation.
Thanks, yes I saw your observation - though my comment wasn't aimed at you.
Charitable status for schools should depend upon the school's purposes and public benefit, using common sense.
It seems to me that most private schools most of the time, excellent though they are, don't primarily exist to provide education on a basis in which ability to pay is a secondary consideration. For most, most of the time, ability to pay is primary. (Of course all schools have exceptions, and some some so much so that they are proper charities).
In ordinary Joe Public language that isn't a charitable purpose. It would be like a religion which usually rather than exceptionally charged the public to attend its services, and usually excluded the poor from its primary activity. (Which IIRC would render it not charitable if it were a religion).
I would rather they first got rid of charities whos charitable purpose seems to be to lobby parliament to give them more money.
Rare that the whole thread including below the line is wrong but this will cost Labour votes despite being sensible and good policy. Doesn't make much difference to the big picture as the Tories are so abject on everything else, left with complete lightweights steering the ship and have nothing positive to offer the country whatsoever.
Charitable status for schools should depend upon the school's purposes and public benefit, using common sense.
It seems to me that most private schools most of the time, excellent though they are, don't primarily exist to provide education on a basis in which ability to pay is a secondary consideration. For most, most of the time, ability to pay is primary. (Of course all schools have exceptions, and some some so much so that they are proper charities).
In ordinary Joe Public language that isn't a charitable purpose. It would be like a religion which usually rather than exceptionally charged the public to attend its services, and usually excluded the poor from its primary activity. (Which IIRC would render it not charitable if it were a religion).
I would rather they first got rid of charities whos charitable purpose seems to be to lobby parliament to give them more money.
Of course that story about the state needing to sign a walloping huge contract for concrete had nothing to do with the comms desk at the concrete cartel.
I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.
Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
Except you look at the areas where the Government spends money and none of them are in a position where cuts can be made..
Which is why I argue we need to reduce the number of area's the government spends money.
So pick a couple and watch the reaction....
just did above
No you didn't you picked the things you wish to priorities - tell me things you don't think money should be spent on...
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
I certainly didn't send my son private so really got no
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
Everyone is always saying spend more money, whether education, justice,immigration or the NHS. Never any suggestions where that money comes from. I suspect if we had 100% tax rates for all and all our income went to the state that there would still be people rightly saying these things are still underfunded.
When you have x income you prioritize spending so it comes to no more than x.
You prioritise. Education would be at the top of my list.
You might to be surprised to find I agree. no 2 is defence no 3 is justice no 4 is health
Once we fully fund those we can see whats left
I think you have just abolished the state pension and out of work benefits. You have also defaulted on a £2 trillion debt. This stuff is hard.
Charitable status for schools should depend upon the school's purposes and public benefit, using common sense.
It seems to me that most private schools most of the time, excellent though they are, don't primarily exist to provide education on a basis in which ability to pay is a secondary consideration. For most, most of the time, ability to pay is primary. (Of course all schools have exceptions, and some some so much so that they are proper charities).
In ordinary Joe Public language that isn't a charitable purpose. It would be like a religion which usually rather than exceptionally charged the public to attend its services, and usually excluded the poor from its primary activity. (Which IIRC would render it not charitable if it were a religion).
I would rather they first got rid of charities whos charitable purpose seems to be to lobby parliament to give them more money.
A previous look at private schools charity status foundered on the problem that the planned rule was about amount of actual charitable activity. A rule that x% of turnover of the charity had to be spent on... charity.
This produced the fun result, that if the cutoff was low enough to catch most private schools, then a number of big charities would be caught as well.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
£7,200 a head in a state school.
I assume that is for a secondary school.
When I was a Primary School Governor 5-6 years ago now our budget per pupil was about half that. So about £4k now?
FPT I'm totally unconvinced that the story about the BBC presenter and the alleged underage child, is all some wicked plot on the part of the Conservatives. BBC News has been giving maximum publicity to this, not just The Sun.
Not just BBC News and The Sun, most of the media has been covering it prominently.
There's a story if this guy was paying a 17 year old, legally a child, for indecent pictures. There's a story if it is grooming or a power imbalance being abused. The power imbalance was certainly something that was core to the allegations against Pip.
If it is two consenting adults, which is where it seems to be heading, then I cannot see why it is such an issue.
Although in essence it doesn't really go from 'terrible' to 'ok' based on the young person being 17 or 18.
I'm more concerned by the abusive messages he sent than any payments for pictures or sexual activity personally. Indicates a nasty side, a man that doesn't want to get caught and fundamentally that points to dishonesty. I know plenty of people who are into non conventional relationships (Not me fwiw) and above all they're honest with their partners and the outside world.
... *allegedly* abusive and *allegedly* sent ... we're past the point where the [edit] suggested identity is at all hard to infer.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
Rare that the whole thread including below the line is wrong but this will cost Labour votes despite being sensible and good policy. Doesn't make much difference to the big picture as the Tories are so abject on everything else, left with complete lightweights steering the ship and have nothing positive to offer the country whatsoever.
Serious question what good will come of it?
It won't raise any money particularly and certainly a lot less than it advocates claim. It will push the children of poor people out of the good state schools as people who can no longer afford private education ramp up prices of rents or mortgages in good state school catchement areas.
It will probably lower the per pupils spending on public sector education
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
All abolishing private education would actually achieve is to push up the price of housing in the catchement areas of good state schools and push poorer people out of those areas. The poor would actually end up with less opportunity for a good education and be condemned to sink schools.
And yet, private schools have pushed their post-bursary fees up by 50% in real terms over the last twenty years without that happening. Hence the IFS modelling that not many parents will pull their children out of the private sector based on the Labour proposals.
Worth thinking about why that might be plausible. Partly, as @Northern_Al pointed out upthread, the top few percent of earners are doing well enough to absorb the extra fees and then some. Partly because the moderately comfortable- the parson, the doctor, the solicitor in the market town- don't earn anything like enough for them to educate their children privately, and haven't for quite a while. And partly, I suspect, because high fees are seen as a positive signal- reassurance of quality and no riffraff.
And if private schools really don't want to increase their fees, they could always become more economical in how they operate. They've clearly got space to do that.
Rare that the whole thread including below the line is wrong but this will cost Labour votes despite being sensible and good policy. Doesn't make much difference to the big picture as the Tories are so abject on everything else, left with complete lightweights steering the ship and have nothing positive to offer the country whatsoever.
Serious question what good will come of it?
It won't raise any money particularly and certainly a lot less than it advocates claim. It will push the children of poor people out of the good state schools as people who can no longer afford private education ramp up prices of rents or mortgages in good state school catchement areas.
It will probably lower the per pupils spending on public sector education
I fail to see how that helps most people
Yes, that's exactly the way I think it will pan out.
Charitable status for schools should depend upon the school's purposes and public benefit, using common sense.
It seems to me that most private schools most of the time, excellent though they are, don't primarily exist to provide education on a basis in which ability to pay is a secondary consideration. For most, most of the time, ability to pay is primary. (Of course all schools have exceptions, and some some so much so that they are proper charities).
In ordinary Joe Public language that isn't a charitable purpose. It would be like a religion which usually rather than exceptionally charged the public to attend its services, and usually excluded the poor from its primary activity. (Which IIRC would render it not charitable if it were a religion).
I would rather they first got rid of charities whos charitable purpose seems to be to lobby parliament to give them more money.
That as well. Very large numbers of charities have negligible charitable purpose or use of any sort. The whole 'awareness raising' industry should be consigned, along with vanity charities, to the bin.
A fair number of charities are given money by government so that they can oppose that same government.
I posted this yesterday, but although it got some pushback I didn't really see any compelling argument against it.
It is supported by various precedents, notably the disendowment of the Church of Ireland (1869) and the Church in Wales (1920) when it was held the money they had raised should go to the nation rather than a private organisation. And it is worth remembering at this point that 'public' schools were so called because they were meant to be open to the public.
Paul Johnson @PJTheEconomist · 3h Private school fees have risen 20% in real terms since 2010 and 55% since 2003. Numbers privately educated have been pretty constant that whole time. Removing tax exemptions likely to have only small effects on numbers. Net benefit to public finances likely to be £1.3-1.5bn p.a.
Paying an extra 20% tomorrow isn't quite the same as 20% more over 10 years. Also be interesting to know the shift in who is attending. Has it shifted to much more reliance on overseas students?
Short answer: yes.
Labour's proposed changes will have basically no effect on Eton and Harrow. It's the smaller, less selective private schools with specialisms (e.g. music or autism support) which are going to suffer. It's not really a very progressive policy at all.
If I wanted to target Eton, Harrow, Clifton, Winchester, Westminster, Cheltenham etc my policy would be to disendow all schools registered as charities that charged fees.
I think that would make a very substantial difference to their business models. Either lose your reserves, or pay business rates.
I suspect those ones would also be able to compensate by whacking up the overseas fees, so it wouldn’t make much difference in practice to them.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
But that 93% are going to find themselves worse off with this policy.
It's the principle, innit? Brexit's made us poorer in myriad ways, not least financially, but, y'know, sovereignty.
The rich will find some way to game the system. They always do. That's why they're rich.
I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.
Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
Except you look at the areas where the Government spends money and none of them are in a position where cuts can be made..
Which is why I argue we need to reduce the number of area's the government spends money.
So pick a couple and watch the reaction....
just did above
No you didn't you picked the things you wish to priorities - tell me things you don't think money should be spent on...
I said these should be the priorities for fully funding. When we see what we have left over is the time to think about what else to spend on.
When I budget I first spend on the must haves, then I see what is left and decide what else to spend money on. It maybe for example after these top 4 then we have no money left.
Until we know what is left how can you decide. The ones I mentioned are essentials for a functional society
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
Au contraire! Private education has given intellectual titans like Boris, JRM, Cleverly, Braverman, .... errr...
Maybe we should abolish private schools after all
Also Clement Attlee, Tony Blair, Tony Benn and one Sir Keir Starmer...
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Are you telling me I'm lying? Because I'll take that personally if you are.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
I didn't realise. In the dimly lit grimdark Napoleon film trailer, the old English actor playing somebody (Wellington?) is omigod Rupert Everett! Age and poor plastic surgery does not suit him...
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
Why should people be able to buy privilege for their children at the expense of other children?
How is paying tax that goes to pay for the state education service and then paying extra to send your kids to private schools doing anything at the expense of other children? The people who do that are paying TWICE.
Personally I'd favour getting a refund in that situation, although I do recognise that's likely to be an extremely minority view!
Interesting to see the views on here - and not all aligned with personal experience of schooling (e.g. TSE in the header).
For full disclosure: I was state educated. My close family includes teachers in both state and private schools. There is at least one private school reasonably local to me that I could probably afford to send our children to, while sacrificing of some things that we do (I happen to know the fees for that school; I do no know the fees of other local private schools). I have no interest in doing that, because I don't believe it would deliver, in the round, a better education and I do believe that I can use that money to support them in far better ways.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
Au contraire! Private education has given intellectual titans like Boris, JRM, Cleverly, Braverman, .... errr...
Maybe we should abolish private schools after all
Also Clement Attlee, Tony Blair, Tony Benn and one Sir Keir Starmer...
This again. Starmer is not, by any reasonable definition, privately educated.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
My son went to slough grammar, if he hadn't got in I would have sent him private because there is no way I would have let him goto slough comprehensive....or as it was referred to locally the gang recruitment centre
As I've argued before, if private schools are charged VAT (as they should be), they don't necessarily have to add that on to school fees. They could, instead, make efficiency savings and cut their expenditure. Perish the thought. Just as the public sector, including schools, have been expected to do over the last 13 years.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
I mean the best state schools with the best catchment. Grammars, acadamies, whatever.
I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.
Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
Except you look at the areas where the Government spends money and none of them are in a position where cuts can be made..
Which is why I argue we need to reduce the number of area's the government spends money.
So pick a couple and watch the reaction....
just did above
No you didn't you picked the things you wish to priorities - tell me things you don't think money should be spent on...
I said these should be the priorities for fully funding. When we see what we have left over is the time to think about what else to spend on.
When I budget I first spend on the must haves, then I see what is left and decide what else to spend money on. It maybe for example after these top 4 then we have no money left.
Until we know what is left how can you decide. The ones I mentioned are essentials for a functional society
I'd add paying debt interest to your list. You need to pay your lenders as a nation.
Interesting to see the views on here - and not all aligned with personal experience of schooling (e.g. TSE in the header).
For full disclosure: I was state educated. My close family includes teachers in both state and private schools. There is at least one private school reasonably local to me that I could probably afford to send our children to, while sacrificing of some things that we do (I happen to know the fees for that school; I do no know the fees of other local private schools). I have no interest in doing that, because I don't believe it would deliver, in the round, a better education and I do believe that I can use that money to support them in far better ways.
Such as hiring awesome history tutors at really quite reasonable rates?
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
Passing the 11 plus these days has little to do with 'natural intelligence' and far, far more to do with being coached for the exam.
Rare that the whole thread including below the line is wrong but this will cost Labour votes despite being sensible and good policy. Doesn't make much difference to the big picture as the Tories are so abject on everything else, left with complete lightweights steering the ship and have nothing positive to offer the country whatsoever.
Serious question what good will come of it?
It won't raise any money particularly and certainly a lot less than it advocates claim. It will push the children of poor people out of the good state schools as people who can no longer afford private education ramp up prices of rents or mortgages in good state school catchement areas.
It will probably lower the per pupils spending on public sector education
I fail to see how that helps most people
What on earth does "it wont raise any money particularly" mean? Will it raise enough to pay for the NHS and fund a new space exploration project? No. Will it raise some money particularly? Yes, of course it does.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
My son went to slough grammar, if he hadn't got in I would have sent him private because there is no way I would have let him goto slough comprehensive....or as it was referred to locally the gang recruitment centre
I'm not bloody surprised. Look at the losers who went there. Johnson, Cameron, Rees-Mogg...
I didn't realise. In the dimly lit grimdark Napoleon film trailer, the old English actor playing somebody (Wellington?) is omigod Rupert Everett! Age and poor plastic surgery does not suit him...
I am trying to imagine a film about Napoleon where there's serious doubt whether a character is or is not Wellington. That lighting must be really dim.
I could easily have afforded to send both my kids to private school, but I thought Nah, fuck it, spend it on ME, and it's generally turned out fine, so there's a noble lesson there
I posted this yesterday, but although it got some pushback I didn't really see any compelling argument against it.
It is supported by various precedents, notably the disendowment of the Church of Ireland (1869) and the Church in Wales (1920) when it was held the money they had raised should go to the nation rather than a private organisation. And it is worth remembering at this point that 'public' schools were so called because they were meant to be open to the public.
Paul Johnson @PJTheEconomist · 3h Private school fees have risen 20% in real terms since 2010 and 55% since 2003. Numbers privately educated have been pretty constant that whole time. Removing tax exemptions likely to have only small effects on numbers. Net benefit to public finances likely to be £1.3-1.5bn p.a.
Paying an extra 20% tomorrow isn't quite the same as 20% more over 10 years. Also be interesting to know the shift in who is attending. Has it shifted to much more reliance on overseas students?
Short answer: yes.
Labour's proposed changes will have basically no effect on Eton and Harrow. It's the smaller, less selective private schools with specialisms (e.g. music or autism support) which are going to suffer. It's not really a very progressive policy at all.
If I wanted to target Eton, Harrow, Clifton, Winchester, Westminster, Cheltenham etc my policy would be to disendow all schools registered as charities that charged fees.
I think that would make a very substantial difference to their business models. Either lose your reserves, or pay business rates.
I suspect those ones would also be able to compensate by whacking up the overseas fees, so it wouldn’t make much difference in practice to them.
And look at the damage that did to those churches. The Church in Wales just a shadow of its former self for example. Indeed more Welsh are Roman Catholic or Methodist now than Anglican and in Ireland more Catholic or Presbyterian than Anglican too
I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.
Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
Except you look at the areas where the Government spends money and none of them are in a position where cuts can be made..
Which is why I argue we need to reduce the number of area's the government spends money.
So pick a couple and watch the reaction....
just did above
No you didn't you picked the things you wish to priorities - tell me things you don't think money should be spent on...
I said these should be the priorities for fully funding. When we see what we have left over is the time to think about what else to spend on.
When I budget I first spend on the must haves, then I see what is left and decide what else to spend money on. It maybe for example after these top 4 then we have no money left.
Until we know what is left how can you decide. The ones I mentioned are essentials for a functional society
I'd add paying debt interest to your list. You need to pay your lenders as a nation.
I assumed that went without saying.
I do support borrowing for infrastructure projects that will have a payback over decades and we will still need to borrow for those.
I do not support borrowing to pay for day to day expenses
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
I went to a sink comp, my wife went to a high-achieving private school. We've ended up in roughly the same place.
I'm not sure what that says or what you can extrapolate from it. But it doesn't sell private education to me, even if we could afford it.
There are studies showing that if you adjust for the relatively advantaged intake the independent sector achieves similar results to the state sector. If true this would mean private schools underperform on a vfm basis since their per pupil spend is higher.
Ofh dear Sunak showing a terrible lack of political nouse in Vilnius.
He started his news conference well - setting out the plans to bring Ukraine into NATO and the progress made generally in supporting them by other means.
But then why oh why did he go off the deeep end all about how wonderful the UK is - not least the comments about the UK giving more than another 20 NATO members. And then banging on about how wonderful our armed forces are. This may or may not all be true but it the sort of stuff you say to a domsetic audience back in the UK not to an international audience at a major NATO conference in Eastern Europe.
It just sounds like crass politicking and self serving glorification. Not the tone he should have been adopting in front of our allies.
And Wallace now telling the Ukrainians to show more gratitude.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
Au contraire! Private education has given intellectual titans like Boris, JRM, Cleverly, Braverman, .... errr...
Maybe we should abolish private schools after all
Also Clement Attlee, Tony Blair, Tony Benn and one Sir Keir Starmer...
The real issue with Starmer's policy - or mine, for that matter - is, how do you word the change so that you get private schools but not universities? Which are technically with I think two exceptions private charitable foundations - charging fees.
I posted this yesterday, but although it got some pushback I didn't really see any compelling argument against it.
It is supported by various precedents, notably the disendowment of the Church of Ireland (1869) and the Church in Wales (1920) when it was held the money they had raised should go to the nation rather than a private organisation. And it is worth remembering at this point that 'public' schools were so called because they were meant to be open to the public.
Paul Johnson @PJTheEconomist · 3h Private school fees have risen 20% in real terms since 2010 and 55% since 2003. Numbers privately educated have been pretty constant that whole time. Removing tax exemptions likely to have only small effects on numbers. Net benefit to public finances likely to be £1.3-1.5bn p.a.
Paying an extra 20% tomorrow isn't quite the same as 20% more over 10 years. Also be interesting to know the shift in who is attending. Has it shifted to much more reliance on overseas students?
Short answer: yes.
Labour's proposed changes will have basically no effect on Eton and Harrow. It's the smaller, less selective private schools with specialisms (e.g. music or autism support) which are going to suffer. It's not really a very progressive policy at all.
If I wanted to target Eton, Harrow, Clifton, Winchester, Westminster, Cheltenham etc my policy would be to disendow all schools registered as charities that charged fees.
I think that would make a very substantial difference to their business models. Either lose your reserves, or pay business rates.
I suspect those ones would also be able to compensate by whacking up the overseas fees, so it wouldn’t make much difference in practice to them.
And look at the damage that did to those churches. The Church in Wales just a shadow of its former self for example. Indeed more Welsh are Roman Catholic or Methodist now than Anglican and in Ireland more Catholic or Presbyterian than Anglican too
Rare that the whole thread including below the line is wrong but this will cost Labour votes despite being sensible and good policy. Doesn't make much difference to the big picture as the Tories are so abject on everything else, left with complete lightweights steering the ship and have nothing positive to offer the country whatsoever.
Serious question what good will come of it?
It won't raise any money particularly and certainly a lot less than it advocates claim. It will push the children of poor people out of the good state schools as people who can no longer afford private education ramp up prices of rents or mortgages in good state school catchement areas.
It will probably lower the per pupils spending on public sector education
I fail to see how that helps most people
What on earth does "it wont raise any money particularly" mean? Will it raise enough to pay for the NHS and fund a new space exploration project? No. Will it raise some money particularly? Yes, of course it does.
It will raise far less than a billion, the extra income will be more than swallowed up by the influx of students to the state education centre. I believe net it will be negative
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
Kent, Lincolnshire, Trafford, Ripon and Bucks are fully grammar and high school for state education, no comprehensives.
Patches of grammars too still in Essex around Colchester, Chelmsford and Southend, Redbridge and Bromley and Kingston upon Thames in London and Poole in Dorset and Rugby in Warwickshire and in the Birmingham suburbs. Plus a semi grammar in Watford.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
My son went to slough grammar, if he hadn't got in I would have sent him private because there is no way I would have let him goto slough comprehensive....or as it was referred to locally the gang recruitment centre
At a parents evening bash as the local Free School it was quite entertaining to see the interaction between the rich and poorer parents
- "We can afford skiing holidays!"
- "That's nice. We moved across London, because my son was stabbed at his last school for refusing to join the gang. So we moved to a 1 bed flat - the council has promised us something next year."
I didn't realise. In the dimly lit grimdark Napoleon film trailer, the old English actor playing somebody (Wellington?) is omigod Rupert Everett! Age and poor plastic surgery does not suit him...
This is your reminder that to film candle-lit tableaux in "Barry Lyndon" Stanley Kubrick had to invent larger lenses to pull in enough light to be useful. Ridley seems to have muttered "just fix it in post", slapped it on film and went on to the next scene, shot in the gloomy dark darkling gloom.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
My son went to slough grammar, if he hadn't got in I would have sent him private because there is no way I would have let him goto slough comprehensive....or as it was referred to locally the gang recruitment centre
Yes, quite. The inequalities in the state system are massive but no-one talks about that. State Good; Private bad is so simplistic. But that doesn't mean there is no case for withdrawing tax-exemption as a point of principle.
Rare that the whole thread including below the line is wrong but this will cost Labour votes despite being sensible and good policy. Doesn't make much difference to the big picture as the Tories are so abject on everything else, left with complete lightweights steering the ship and have nothing positive to offer the country whatsoever.
Serious question what good will come of it?
It won't raise any money particularly and certainly a lot less than it advocates claim. It will push the children of poor people out of the good state schools as people who can no longer afford private education ramp up prices of rents or mortgages in good state school catchement areas.
It will probably lower the per pupils spending on public sector education
I fail to see how that helps most people
What on earth does "it wont raise any money particularly" mean? Will it raise enough to pay for the NHS and fund a new space exploration project? No. Will it raise some money particularly? Yes, of course it does.
It will raise far less than a billion, the extra income will be more than swallowed up by the influx of students to the state education centre. I believe net it will be negative
Shades of the 45p tax rate. "But it sends the right signals!"
What about using OFSTED inspectors to send signals? Fly them as flags or some such?
I could easily have afforded to send both my kids to private school, but I thought Nah, fuck it, spend it on ME, and it's generally turned out fine, so there's a noble lesson there
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
I certainly didn't send my son private so really got no skin in the game. I also don't regret that. However I do think if private schools were abolished the net results would be worse education for the bottom 80% as rich parents find ways to shoehorn kids into the good stateschools at the expense of their kids
There are already complaints about rich parents transferring their kids to the 6th form at the local Free School - no fees, plus tutoring*, plus being able to claim state school priority in admissions.
Elbowing out the needy is the term used.
*Without private education, back to the really old days, when the posh were tutored. 3 Levels = 3 tutors. Cut the cost by sharing between a couple of parents (already happens). a few hours a week plus lots of set work....
I posted this yesterday, but although it got some pushback I didn't really see any compelling argument against it.
It is supported by various precedents, notably the disendowment of the Church of Ireland (1869) and the Church in Wales (1920) when it was held the money they had raised should go to the nation rather than a private organisation. And it is worth remembering at this point that 'public' schools were so called because they were meant to be open to the public.
Paul Johnson @PJTheEconomist · 3h Private school fees have risen 20% in real terms since 2010 and 55% since 2003. Numbers privately educated have been pretty constant that whole time. Removing tax exemptions likely to have only small effects on numbers. Net benefit to public finances likely to be £1.3-1.5bn p.a.
Paying an extra 20% tomorrow isn't quite the same as 20% more over 10 years. Also be interesting to know the shift in who is attending. Has it shifted to much more reliance on overseas students?
Short answer: yes.
Labour's proposed changes will have basically no effect on Eton and Harrow. It's the smaller, less selective private schools with specialisms (e.g. music or autism support) which are going to suffer. It's not really a very progressive policy at all.
If I wanted to target Eton, Harrow, Clifton, Winchester, Westminster, Cheltenham etc my policy would be to disendow all schools registered as charities that charged fees.
I think that would make a very substantial difference to their business models. Either lose your reserves, or pay business rates.
I suspect those ones would also be able to compensate by whacking up the overseas fees, so it wouldn’t make much difference in practice to them.
And look at the damage that did to those churches. The Church in Wales just a shadow of its former self for example. Indeed more Welsh are Roman Catholic or Methodist now than Anglican and in Ireland more Catholic or Presbyterian than Anglican too
That's a joke, right?
He made the same joke about Scotland in an argument with me a year or two back - don't know if you saw it. Apparently the disestablishment of the C of S means that Scotland is at rist of being excessively influenced by the RC Church, but England is protected from such a fate by the Establishment of the C of E.
The real issue with Starmer's policy - or mine, for that matter - is, how do you word the change so that you get private schools but not universities? Which are technically with I think two exceptions private charitable foundations - charging fees.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
My son went to slough grammar, if he hadn't got in I would have sent him private because there is no way I would have let him goto slough comprehensive....or as it was referred to locally the gang recruitment centre
Yes, quite. The inequalities in the state system are massive but no-one talks about that. State Good; Private bad is so simplistic. But that doesn't mean there is no case for withdrawing tax-exemption as a point of principle.
This is a bit of Labour populism isn't it?
Speaking as somebody who grew up in a grammar school area, plenty of people talk about it.
What they don't have is an understanding of how to sort it without simply getting rid of the grammar schools.
Admittedly that would get rid of Crypt, which would be A Good Thing, but the loss of Pate's, Denmark and Tommy's would be a downer.
Ofh dear Sunak showing a terrible lack of political nouse in Vilnius.
He started his news conference well - setting out the plans to bring Ukraine into NATO and the progress made generally in supporting them by other means.
But then why oh why did he go off the deeep end all about how wonderful the UK is - not least the comments about the UK giving more than another 20 NATO members. And then banging on about how wonderful our armed forces are. This may or may not all be true but it the sort of stuff you say to a domsetic audience back in the UK not to an international audience at a major NATO conference in Eastern Europe.
It just sounds like crass politicking and self serving glorification. Not the tone he should have been adopting in front of our allies.
And Wallace now telling the Ukrainians to show more gratitude.
Perhaps it's a form of projection. What they really want is the Americans to show more gratitude.
Just when you are prepared to make an exception for Ben Wallace on the list of Tory jerks, he starts asking for Ukrainian "gratitude", rather than expressing gratitude to Ukraine for the huge sacrifices they are making in the defence of the civilised world.
So even Ben Wallace is a jerk. The sooner this cynical, pathetic bunch of useless nonentities leave power, the better.
I posted this yesterday, but although it got some pushback I didn't really see any compelling argument against it.
It is supported by various precedents, notably the disendowment of the Church of Ireland (1869) and the Church in Wales (1920) when it was held the money they had raised should go to the nation rather than a private organisation. And it is worth remembering at this point that 'public' schools were so called because they were meant to be open to the public.
Paul Johnson @PJTheEconomist · 3h Private school fees have risen 20% in real terms since 2010 and 55% since 2003. Numbers privately educated have been pretty constant that whole time. Removing tax exemptions likely to have only small effects on numbers. Net benefit to public finances likely to be £1.3-1.5bn p.a.
Paying an extra 20% tomorrow isn't quite the same as 20% more over 10 years. Also be interesting to know the shift in who is attending. Has it shifted to much more reliance on overseas students?
Short answer: yes.
Labour's proposed changes will have basically no effect on Eton and Harrow. It's the smaller, less selective private schools with specialisms (e.g. music or autism support) which are going to suffer. It's not really a very progressive policy at all.
If I wanted to target Eton, Harrow, Clifton, Winchester, Westminster, Cheltenham etc my policy would be to disendow all schools registered as charities that charged fees.
I think that would make a very substantial difference to their business models. Either lose your reserves, or pay business rates.
I suspect those ones would also be able to compensate by whacking up the overseas fees, so it wouldn’t make much difference in practice to them.
And look at the damage that did to those churches. The Church in Wales just a shadow of its former self for example. Indeed more Welsh are Roman Catholic or Methodist now than Anglican and in Ireland more Catholic or Presbyterian than Anglican too
That's a joke, right?
No, deadly serious. Remove endowments from our great institutions like our ancient Church of England churches, our historic public schools and Oxbridge colleges and it would damage not only them but our nation as a whole
Nobody in my immediate, or extended, family was privately educated - not now, nor in the past. We have all been pretty successful in life, in a variety of different ways. We were all comprehensively educated, apart from handful of oldies who started out in grammar schools. The state schools that my kids, and all my relatives, attended have been great.
Conclusion: I get pretty pissed off with the view held by so many on here that state comprehensive schools aren't good enough for their precious kids. Most state schools do a fabulous job. A minority aren't good enough, and that needs fixing. But a minority of private schools are also pretty poor.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
My son went to slough grammar, if he hadn't got in I would have sent him private because there is no way I would have let him goto slough comprehensive....or as it was referred to locally the gang recruitment centre
Yes, quite. The inequalities in the state system are massive but no-one talks about that. State Good; Private bad is so simplistic. But that doesn't mean there is no case for withdrawing tax-exemption as a point of principle.
This is a bit of Labour populism isn't it?
I went to a state school where there were enough kids who didn't value education and made sure that those that did saw the error of their ways. No way would have put my son through that.
You have to remember though labour populism = good apparently according to many
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
I certainly didn't send my son private so really got no skin in the game. I also don't regret that. However I do think if private schools were abolished the net results would be worse education for the bottom 80% as rich parents find ways to shoehorn kids into the good stateschools at the expense of their kids
There are already complaints about rich parents transferring their kids to the 6th form at the local Free School - no fees, plus tutoring*, plus being able to claim state school priority in admissions.
Elbowing out the needy is the term used.
*Without private education, back to the really old days, when the posh were tutored. 3 Levels = 3 tutors. Cut the cost by sharing between a couple of parents (already happens). a few hours a week plus lots of set work....
Is VAT paid on tutoring?
Not at the moment. One question about this policy would be if and how that would change.
Just when you are prepared to make an exception for Ben Wallace on the list of Tory jerks, he starts asking for Ukrainian "gratitude", rather than expressing gratitude to Ukraine for the huge sacrifices they are making in the defence of the civilised world.
So even Ben Wallace is a jerk. The sooner this cynical, pathetic bunch of useless nonentities leave power, the better.
So Biden made the correct choice when he vetoed Ben Wallace as the next Nato leader...
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
Kent, Lincolnshire, Trafford, Ripon and Bucks are fully grammar and high school for state education, no comprehensives.
Patches of grammars too still in Essex around Colchester, Chelmsford and Southend, Redbridge and Bromley and Kingston upon Thames in London and Poole in Dorset and Rugby in Warwickshire and in the Birmingham suburbs. Plus a semi grammar in Watford.
Simply not true. In Lincolnshire there are a dozen or so Grammars but also many Comprehensives (or Academies as they are apparently calld these days).
Having Grammar schools does not preclude having Comprehensives as well. In Grantham there are 2 Grammar schools and two comprehensives.
I posted this yesterday, but although it got some pushback I didn't really see any compelling argument against it.
It is supported by various precedents, notably the disendowment of the Church of Ireland (1869) and the Church in Wales (1920) when it was held the money they had raised should go to the nation rather than a private organisation. And it is worth remembering at this point that 'public' schools were so called because they were meant to be open to the public.
Paul Johnson @PJTheEconomist · 3h Private school fees have risen 20% in real terms since 2010 and 55% since 2003. Numbers privately educated have been pretty constant that whole time. Removing tax exemptions likely to have only small effects on numbers. Net benefit to public finances likely to be £1.3-1.5bn p.a.
Paying an extra 20% tomorrow isn't quite the same as 20% more over 10 years. Also be interesting to know the shift in who is attending. Has it shifted to much more reliance on overseas students?
Short answer: yes.
Labour's proposed changes will have basically no effect on Eton and Harrow. It's the smaller, less selective private schools with specialisms (e.g. music or autism support) which are going to suffer. It's not really a very progressive policy at all.
If I wanted to target Eton, Harrow, Clifton, Winchester, Westminster, Cheltenham etc my policy would be to disendow all schools registered as charities that charged fees.
I think that would make a very substantial difference to their business models. Either lose your reserves, or pay business rates.
I suspect those ones would also be able to compensate by whacking up the overseas fees, so it wouldn’t make much difference in practice to them.
And look at the damage that did to those churches. The Church in Wales just a shadow of its former self for example. Indeed more Welsh are Roman Catholic or Methodist now than Anglican and in Ireland more Catholic or Presbyterian than Anglican too
That's a joke, right?
No, deadly serious. Remove endowments from our great institutions like our ancient Church of England churches, our historic public schools and Oxbridge colleges and it would damage not only them but our nation as a whole
I posted this yesterday, but although it got some pushback I didn't really see any compelling argument against it.
It is supported by various precedents, notably the disendowment of the Church of Ireland (1869) and the Church in Wales (1920) when it was held the money they had raised should go to the nation rather than a private organisation. And it is worth remembering at this point that 'public' schools were so called because they were meant to be open to the public.
Paul Johnson @PJTheEconomist · 3h Private school fees have risen 20% in real terms since 2010 and 55% since 2003. Numbers privately educated have been pretty constant that whole time. Removing tax exemptions likely to have only small effects on numbers. Net benefit to public finances likely to be £1.3-1.5bn p.a.
Paying an extra 20% tomorrow isn't quite the same as 20% more over 10 years. Also be interesting to know the shift in who is attending. Has it shifted to much more reliance on overseas students?
Short answer: yes.
Labour's proposed changes will have basically no effect on Eton and Harrow. It's the smaller, less selective private schools with specialisms (e.g. music or autism support) which are going to suffer. It's not really a very progressive policy at all.
If I wanted to target Eton, Harrow, Clifton, Winchester, Westminster, Cheltenham etc my policy would be to disendow all schools registered as charities that charged fees.
I think that would make a very substantial difference to their business models. Either lose your reserves, or pay business rates.
I suspect those ones would also be able to compensate by whacking up the overseas fees, so it wouldn’t make much difference in practice to them.
And look at the damage that did to those churches. The Church in Wales just a shadow of its former self for example. Indeed more Welsh are Roman Catholic or Methodist now than Anglican and in Ireland more Catholic or Presbyterian than Anglican too
That's a joke, right?
No, deadly serious. Remove endowments from our great institutions like our ancient Church of England churches, our historic public schools and Oxbridge colleges and it would damage not only them but our nation as a whole
Can I just check - you do know that until disestablishment there were more MEthodists than Anglicans in Wales, and there are now more Anglicans than Methodists?
Rare that the whole thread including below the line is wrong but this will cost Labour votes despite being sensible and good policy. Doesn't make much difference to the big picture as the Tories are so abject on everything else, left with complete lightweights steering the ship and have nothing positive to offer the country whatsoever.
Serious question what good will come of it?
It won't raise any money particularly and certainly a lot less than it advocates claim. It will push the children of poor people out of the good state schools as people who can no longer afford private education ramp up prices of rents or mortgages in good state school catchement areas.
It will probably lower the per pupils spending on public sector education
I fail to see how that helps most people
What on earth does "it wont raise any money particularly" mean? Will it raise enough to pay for the NHS and fund a new space exploration project? No. Will it raise some money particularly? Yes, of course it does.
It will raise far less than a billion, the extra income will be more than swallowed up by the influx of students to the state education centre. I believe net it will be negative
Shades of the 45p tax rate. "But it sends the right signals!"
What about using OFSTED inspectors to send signals? Fly them as flags or some such?
I suspect ydoethur would be fully on board with hoisting ofsted inspectors up a flagpole on the end of a rope
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
Kent, Lincolnshire, Trafford, Ripon and Bucks are fully grammar and high school for state education, no comprehensives.
Patches of grammars too still in Essex around Colchester, Chelmsford and Southend, Redbridge and Bromley and Kingston upon Thames in London and Poole in Dorset and Rugby in Warwickshire and in the Birmingham suburbs. Plus a semi grammar in Watford.
Simply not true. In Lincolnshire there are a dozen or so Grammars but also many Comprehensives (or Academies as they are apparently calld these days).
Having Grammar schools does not preclude having Comprehensives as well. In Grantham there are 2 Grammar schools and two comprehensives.
There are no real comprehensives in Lincolnshire, just high schools/academies. To be a comprehensive you can't have the most academic kids in the area going to local grammars.
On the upside, here's some good news about the UK economy, at last. I know we all need a pep up in these dark times
The Knappers' Gazette have told me they're sending me to a brand new hotel in the Maldives to try "the best scuba diving in the world", in late September. Eight days all exes paid, 5 star and whatnot
So don't be down in the dumps, guys. Enough of the misery guts and Oh Woe. Things really ARE beginning to improve, if hotels and tour ops can afford to do the full on Free Luxury Travel once again. I sense we are turning the corner, there is a brightness to the east
And let's see some smiling faces, shall we, as we all share in this positive news
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
Fair comment. My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
I certainly didn't send my son private so really got no skin in the game. I also don't regret that. However I do think if private schools were abolished the net results would be worse education for the bottom 80% as rich parents find ways to shoehorn kids into the good stateschools at the expense of their kids
There are already complaints about rich parents transferring their kids to the 6th form at the local Free School - no fees, plus tutoring*, plus being able to claim state school priority in admissions.
Elbowing out the needy is the term used.
*Without private education, back to the really old days, when the posh were tutored. 3 Levels = 3 tutors. Cut the cost by sharing between a couple of parents (already happens). a few hours a week plus lots of set work....
Is VAT paid on tutoring?
Not at the moment. One question about this policy would be if and how that would change.
Does this mean vat will also be applied to university fees? I have to admit I would laugh myself silly if it did as an unintended consequence
Ofh dear Sunak showing a terrible lack of political nouse in Vilnius.
He started his news conference well - setting out the plans to bring Ukraine into NATO and the progress made generally in supporting them by other means.
But then why oh why did he go off the deeep end all about how wonderful the UK is - not least the comments about the UK giving more than another 20 NATO members. And then banging on about how wonderful our armed forces are. This may or may not all be true but it the sort of stuff you say to a domsetic audience back in the UK not to an international audience at a major NATO conference in Eastern Europe.
It just sounds like crass politicking and self serving glorification. Not the tone he should have been adopting in front of our allies.
Indeed. Every time I meet a British Tory minister we get an address to the people who are not in the room, and who are not interested in the domestic messaging. Its tedious and crass.
Rare that the whole thread including below the line is wrong but this will cost Labour votes despite being sensible and good policy. Doesn't make much difference to the big picture as the Tories are so abject on everything else, left with complete lightweights steering the ship and have nothing positive to offer the country whatsoever.
Serious question what good will come of it?
It won't raise any money particularly and certainly a lot less than it advocates claim. It will push the children of poor people out of the good state schools as people who can no longer afford private education ramp up prices of rents or mortgages in good state school catchement areas.
It will probably lower the per pupils spending on public sector education
I fail to see how that helps most people
What on earth does "it wont raise any money particularly" mean? Will it raise enough to pay for the NHS and fund a new space exploration project? No. Will it raise some money particularly? Yes, of course it does.
It will raise far less than a billion, the extra income will be more than swallowed up by the influx of students to the state education centre. I believe net it will be negative
But it will mean we have a set of middle class parents determined that their children are taught well who will also be able to put pressure on schools to ensure that the schools improve.
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
My son went to slough grammar, if he hadn't got in I would have sent him private because there is no way I would have let him goto slough comprehensive....or as it was referred to locally the gang recruitment centre
Yes, quite. The inequalities in the state system are massive but no-one talks about that. State Good; Private bad is so simplistic. But that doesn't mean there is no case for withdrawing tax-exemption as a point of principle.
This is a bit of Labour populism isn't it?
Speaking as somebody who grew up in a grammar school area, plenty of people talk about it.
What they don't have is an understanding of how to sort it without simply getting rid of the grammar schools.
Admittedly that would get rid of Crypt, which would be A Good Thing, but the loss of Pate's, Denmark and Tommy's would be a downer.
We need more grammars not less, only the top grammars in the state sector truly challenge the top private schools for Oxbridge entry for instance with a handful of exceptions like Mossbourne
I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...
Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)
In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...
So that story doesn't wash.
Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
My daughters have attended both private and state schools. Private was a massive financial challenge. Trouble is when people think private schools they think about the elites such as Eton. Most private schools are nothing like that.
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
The existence of "grammars" depends very much where you live, there's entirely zero in the east midlands outside of Lincolnshire whereas Kent has over 30.
Kent, Lincolnshire, Trafford, Ripon and Bucks are fully grammar and high school for state education, no comprehensives.
Patches of grammars too still in Essex around Colchester, Chelmsford and Southend, Redbridge and Bromley and Kingston upon Thames in London and Poole in Dorset and Rugby in Warwickshire and in the Birmingham suburbs. Plus a semi grammar in Watford.
Simply not true. In Lincolnshire there are a dozen or so Grammars but also many Comprehensives (or Academies as they are apparently calld these days).
Having Grammar schools does not preclude having Comprehensives as well. In Grantham there are 2 Grammar schools and two comprehensives.
Secondary moderns call themselves comprehensives these days. They often offer "grammar streams" too. It's all branding.
These tax breaks are particularly vital for small private day school fees. They remember do not get the funding big, ancient public boarding schools get from super rich parents the world over. Nor do they get the taxpayer funding state schools do.
Not only would scrapping tax relief and charitable status for private schools reduce parental choice therefore, it would also reduce scholarships in private schools, making them even more exclusive. Plus add to the taxpayer funds needed for additional state school pupils.
I would be furious if any Tory leader joined Starmer in such an un Conservative policy and would push for their removal immediately. Thankfully Rishi is not going down that route and fully supports charitable status for private schools as well as donating to his old alma mater of Winchester for bursaries and scholarships.
Note too a recent ISC Public First poll contradicts Yougov and found just 37% wanted to remove private schools tax relief. 48% wanted them to keep that tax relief, broken down by 30% for keeping it by increasing the amount done for public benefit eg sharing facilities and 18% wanting to keep the tax relief regardless.
I am shocked TSE would consider backing such a class war policy. Without his private education and Cambridge degree he might not have ever become a senior compliance person writing PB headers!
On the upside, here's some good news about the UK economy, at last. I know we all need a pep up in these dark times
The Knappers' Gazette have told me they're sending me to a brand new hotel in the Maldives to try "the best scuba diving in the world", in late September. Eight days all exes paid, 5 star and whatnot
So don't be down in the dumps, guys. Enough of the misery guts and Oh Woe. Things really ARE beginning to pick up- if hotels and tour ops can afford to do the full on Free Luxury Travel again. I sense we are turning the corner, as this shows
Let's see some smiling faces as we all share in this positive news
Maybe if you ask nicely they will fill your tank with nitrous oxide so you can have an even better time
I didn't realise. In the dimly lit grimdark Napoleon film trailer, the old English actor playing somebody (Wellington?) is omigod Rupert Everett! Age and poor plastic surgery does not suit him...
This is your reminder that to film candle-lit tableaux in "Barry Lyndon" Stanley Kubrick had to invent larger lenses to pull in enough light to be useful. Ridley seems to have muttered "just fix it in post", slapped it on film and went on to the next scene, shot in the gloomy dark darkling gloom.
Genuinely think Ridley Scott is one of the most overrated directors there is. Not bad, but massively overrated. Also have a pet theory that Alien was all Walter Hill.
Just when you are prepared to make an exception for Ben Wallace on the list of Tory jerks, he starts asking for Ukrainian "gratitude", rather than expressing gratitude to Ukraine for the huge sacrifices they are making in the defence of the civilised world.
So even Ben Wallace is a jerk. The sooner this cynical, pathetic bunch of useless nonentities leave power, the better.
The same Tory Jerks who have arranged for the training of Ukraine's army for the past 9 years and who are the second biggest supplier of military equipment to Ukraine?
It's curious to read these comments -- since there is no similar debate in the US. Instead, there are long-standing arguments about "charter schools":
"Charter schools in the United States are primary or secondary education institutions that are public schools which are publicly funded and operate independently, rather than being overseen by local school districts. Charter schools have a contract with local school districts or other authorizing bodies which allow them to operate. These contracts, or charters, are how charters schools bear their name. They are funded with public tax dollars, though they also fundraise independently. Charter schools are subject to fewer rules than traditional state schools in exchange for greater accountability. Proponents argue that they are meant to serve underserved communities that wish to have alternatives to their neighborhood school. Charters are run as either non-profit or for-profit institutions. However, there are some for-profit management organizations that hold charters, though these are only allowed in Arizona.[2] Only non-profit charters can receive donations from private sources, just the same as traditional public schools.[3]
As of 2016–2017 there were an estimated 6,900 public charter schools in 42 states and the District of Columbia with approximately 3.1 million students, a sixfold increase in enrollment over the past 15 years." source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_schools_in_the_United_States
Full disclosure: In general, I favor charter schools -- but I recognize that they are not suitable for most rural areas.
(If you are interested in education in the United States, you should read this site from time to time: https://www.joannejacobs.com/ Jacobs is very smart, and very well-informed on American education.)
I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.
Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
Except you look at the areas where the Government spends money and none of them are in a position where cuts can be made..
Which is why I argue we need to reduce the number of area's the government spends money.
So pick a couple and watch the reaction....
just did above
No you didn't you picked the things you wish to priorities - tell me things you don't think money should be spent on...
I said these should be the priorities for fully funding. When we see what we have left over is the time to think about what else to spend on.
When I budget I first spend on the must haves, then I see what is left and decide what else to spend money on. It maybe for example after these top 4 then we have no money left.
Until we know what is left how can you decide. The ones I mentioned are essentials for a functional society
But countries aren't like individuals in their finances. It's a misleading analogy. You have an income. A country can raise taxes, but has much more flexibility in what those taxes are, yet also those taxes can have knock on effects on the economy. A country usually has its own currency. It can literally print money, although doing so can devalue everyone's holdings of that money through inflation. Countries can borrow comparatively cheaply over very long periods in a way a person can't. Countries are indefinite: they don't have to worry about a personal pension (although they do have to worry about paying many pensions all the time).
Comments
It is worth noting, however, that the salaries of the top 10% of earners, those most likely to avail themselves of a private education, have also increased at a very rapid rate over the last 20/30 years. They've been doing very well for themselves.
My own view (FWIW) is that private education is an utter waste of money. That said, Labour's policy likely won't do anything to improve education overall.
Education would be at the top of my list.
The overseas market is aimed at the very top boarding schools, and different economics apply there.
no 2 is defence
no 3 is justice
no 4 is health
Once we fully fund those we can see whats left
Elbowing out the needy is the term used.
*Without private education, back to the really old days, when the posh were tutored. 3 Levels = 3 tutors. Cut the cost by sharing between a couple of parents (already happens). a few hours a week plus lots of set work....
It seems to me that most private schools most of the time, excellent though they are, don't primarily exist to provide education on a basis in which ability to pay is a secondary consideration. For most, most of the time, ability to pay is primary. (Of course all schools have exceptions, and some some so much so that they are proper charities).
In ordinary Joe Public language that isn't a charitable purpose. It would be like a religion which usually rather than exceptionally charged the public to attend its services, and usually excluded the poor from its primary activity. (Which IIRC would render it not charitable if it were a religion).
Maybe we should abolish private schools after all
Imagine what it would be like without all their public school expertise running the country so well!
I know plenty of people who are into non conventional relationships (Not me fwiw) and above all they're honest with their partners and the outside world.
This produced the fun result, that if the cutoff was low enough to catch most private schools, then a number of big charities would be caught as well.
When I was a Primary School Governor 5-6 years ago now our budget per pupil was about half that. So about £4k now?
I've seen through my own experience that the gulf between most day private schools and the elite private schools is far wider than the gulf between modest day schools and good state schools. The latter are FAR better funded. When my youngest went from private to state she was wide-eyed about the facilities.
Those parents, and children, who are truly blessed are those endowed with a natural intelligence who get into the grammars. Those parents have nothing to pay and their offspring will rise to the top.
The parents we met at the private schools were no different in terms of class to the parent we met at the state schools. The difference is about what people choose to do with their money. We have always prioritised our children's needs above cars and eating out, for instance.
I don't think private schools should be banned. But charitable status has always struck me as a bit of a stretch. But it seems unfair to treat all private schools the same.
Parents of modest day schools WILL withdraw. They will have no choice. These schools have no reserves. They are skint already so will have to pass it on. There will be some closures and demand for state schools will increase.
The end result will be less tax raised than Starmer thinks.
It won't raise any money particularly and certainly a lot less than it advocates claim. It will push the children of poor people out of the good state schools as people who can no longer afford private education ramp up prices of rents or mortgages in good state school catchement areas.
It will probably lower the per pupils spending on public sector education
I fail to see how that helps most people
Worth thinking about why that might be plausible. Partly, as @Northern_Al pointed out upthread, the top few percent of earners are doing well enough to absorb the extra fees and then some. Partly because the moderately comfortable- the parson, the doctor, the solicitor in the market town- don't earn anything like enough for them to educate their children privately, and haven't for quite a while. And partly, I suspect, because high fees are seen as a positive signal- reassurance of quality and no riffraff.
And if private schools really don't want to increase their fees, they could always become more economical in how they operate. They've clearly got space to do that.
A fair number of charities are given money by government so that they can oppose that same government.
@AngusMacNeilSNP
I shall not now be seeking to rejoin the Westrminster SNP group until at least October.
Meanwhile I will sit as an independent MP."
https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1679099444845764609
It is supported by various precedents, notably the disendowment of the Church of Ireland (1869) and the Church in Wales (1920) when it was held the money they had raised should go to the nation rather than a private organisation. And it is worth remembering at this point that 'public' schools were so called because they were meant to be open to the public. If I wanted to target Eton, Harrow, Clifton, Winchester, Westminster, Cheltenham etc my policy would be to disendow all schools registered as charities that charged fees.
I think that would make a very substantial difference to their business models. Either lose your reserves, or pay business rates.
I suspect those ones would also be able to compensate by whacking up the overseas fees, so it wouldn’t make much difference in practice to them.
The rich will find some way to game the system. They always do. That's why they're rich.
When I budget I first spend on the must haves, then I see what is left and decide what else to spend money on. It maybe for example after these top 4 then we have no money left.
Until we know what is left how can you decide. The ones I mentioned are essentials for a functional society
Personally I'd favour getting a refund in that situation, although I do recognise that's likely to be an extremely minority view!
For full disclosure: I was state educated. My close family includes teachers in both state and private schools. There is at least one private school reasonably local to me that I could probably afford to send our children to, while sacrificing of some things that we do (I happen to know the fees for that school; I do no know the fees of other local private schools). I have no interest in doing that, because I don't believe it would deliver, in the round, a better education and I do believe that I can use that money to support them in far better ways.
Just as the public sector, including schools, have been expected to do over the last 13 years.
I do support borrowing for infrastructure projects that will have a payback over decades and we will still need to borrow for those.
I do not support borrowing to pay for day to day expenses
Patches of grammars too still in Essex around Colchester, Chelmsford and Southend, Redbridge and Bromley and Kingston upon Thames in London and Poole in Dorset and Rugby in Warwickshire and in the Birmingham suburbs. Plus a semi grammar in Watford.
- "We can afford skiing holidays!"
- "That's nice. We moved across London, because my son was stabbed at his last school for refusing to join the gang. So we moved to a 1 bed flat - the council has promised us something next year."
This is a bit of Labour populism isn't it?
What about using OFSTED inspectors to send signals? Fly them as flags or some such?
Not sure where the punchline comes, mind.
No VAT on those fees. Thank goodness.
What they don't have is an understanding of how to sort it without simply getting rid of the grammar schools.
Admittedly that would get rid of Crypt, which would be A Good Thing, but the loss of Pate's, Denmark and Tommy's would be a downer.
So even Ben Wallace is a jerk. The sooner this cynical, pathetic bunch of useless nonentities leave power, the better.
We have all been pretty successful in life, in a variety of different ways.
We were all comprehensively educated, apart from handful of oldies who started out in grammar schools.
The state schools that my kids, and all my relatives, attended have been great.
Conclusion: I get pretty pissed off with the view held by so many on here that state comprehensive schools aren't good enough for their precious kids. Most state schools do a fabulous job. A minority aren't good enough, and that needs fixing. But a minority of private schools are also pretty poor.
You have to remember though labour populism = good apparently according to many
Having Grammar schools does not preclude having Comprehensives as well. In Grantham there are 2 Grammar schools and two comprehensives.
While in Ireland, well...
The Knappers' Gazette have told me they're sending me to a brand new hotel in the Maldives to try "the best scuba diving in the world", in late September. Eight days all exes paid, 5 star and whatnot
So don't be down in the dumps, guys. Enough of the misery guts and Oh Woe. Things really ARE beginning to improve, if hotels and tour ops can afford to do the full on Free Luxury Travel once again. I sense we are turning the corner, there is a brightness to the east
And let's see some smiling faces, shall we, as we all share in this positive news
Thelma and Louise is brilliant though tbf.
"Charter schools in the United States are primary or secondary education institutions that are public schools which are publicly funded and operate independently, rather than being overseen by local school districts. Charter schools have a contract with local school districts or other authorizing bodies which allow them to operate. These contracts, or charters, are how charters schools bear their name. They are funded with public tax dollars, though they also fundraise independently. Charter schools are subject to fewer rules than traditional state schools in exchange for greater accountability. Proponents argue that they are meant to serve underserved communities that wish to have alternatives to their neighborhood school. Charters are run as either non-profit or for-profit institutions. However, there are some for-profit management organizations that hold charters, though these are only allowed in Arizona.[2] Only non-profit charters can receive donations from private sources, just the same as traditional public schools.[3]
As of 2016–2017 there were an estimated 6,900 public charter schools in 42 states and the District of Columbia with approximately 3.1 million students, a sixfold increase in enrollment over the past 15 years."
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_schools_in_the_United_States
Full disclosure: In general, I favor charter schools -- but I recognize that they are not suitable for most rural areas.
(If you are interested in education in the United States, you should read this site from time to time: https://www.joannejacobs.com/ Jacobs is very smart, and very well-informed on American education.)