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Starmer is in tune with the nation – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,217
edited July 2023 in General
Starmer is in tune with the nation – politicalbetting.com

Most private schools are registered charities, which allows them various tax breaks67% of Britons (including 61% of Tory voters) say that private schools should not continue to be allowed to register as charitieshttps://t.co/qm31nNB9cm pic.twitter.com/6odJSKK13k

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    First like the class of education I received.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    I don't imagine this will be a flagship policy, surely? The Tories can clearly see it's not a vote winner, and Labour have other things they want to focus on. Starmer would be smart to highlight it - just like Labour should always try to get fox hunting into the news whenever there is a GE because the Tory support for fox hunting is weirdly a pretty significant way of making people interested in voting Tory not.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    The answers to this depend very much on the phrasing of the question.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    First like the class of education I received.

    Cost of private education has gone up massively (Even in real terms) compared to our days there.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
    I think we all expect the Labour manifesto to be passable but underwhelming, with a few unnecessary little touches of authoritarianism to try to keep the supposed red wall on side.

    The Tory manifesto will also be lacking in anything interesting aside from a few mini culture wars items.

    So the election will go on a mixture of pre existing public opinion and the credibility of the two front benches during the campaign.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975

    Somebody else pays taxes rather than me is also a popular policy in polling....

    Plus as I know from experience, the country are very prejudiced to the private educated.

    We're the last people left it is okay to be prejudiced against.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,148

    Somebody else pays taxes rather than me is also a popular policy in polling....

    Rich* barstewards paying more tax, you mean.

    *Easy to define - anyone earning twice the person you are talking to earns. Not uncommon to find people on £50K talking about how poor they are.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
    No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679
    This policy from Labour is a jewel because it appeals to floating voters and at the same time to the left of the party. These are often in conflict.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491

    Somebody else pays taxes rather than me is also a popular policy in polling....

    Spending affecting someone else being cut is another popular policy.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    Pulpstar said:

    First like the class of education I received.

    Cost of private education has gone up massively (Even in real terms) compared to our days there.
    It has, I'm lucky I can afford to absorb the extra costs, insofar as I saved up for the fees years ago.

    I did read a few weeks ago something like 30% of parents wouldn't be able to afford VAT being applied.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    Sort of FPT given the 12th July bonfire pictures. I fell and cracked 4 ribs on Sunday night and have been in hospital ever since.

    The question is whether I go ahead with the planned fortnight’s holiday to Georgia at the end of July, or give it up on the basis the ribs won’t be fully healed by then. A holiday with a lot going on so not a quiet city break or beach type of affair.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    That's an interesting theory, but I suspect the New Labour grandees advising Starmer will keep anything they think is electorally toxic well hidden.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    I love the suggestion that the VAT on school fees will actually raise money, rather than simply reduce the VAT paid on cars and foreign holidays, that families forego in order to keep their kids in the good school.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    Worry is now being reported about the suspended BBC presenter's "state of mind".

    Those who know his identity can find published material in his background that relates to this. Jeremy Vine is absolutely right that it is in the presenter's own best interests for him to be publicly named.

    But this doesn't mean it's only the presenter himself who wants his name kept quiet. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it isn't just him.

    The mistake is to think this is the doing only of a group of mucky-minded Sun "journalists" after one of their late-morning farting, belching, or leering competitions. It's much more sophis.

    So if he talks and says there have been dirty tricks against him, listen to what he says and try to divine who he may be pointing the finger at. Because it probably won't be only Victoria Newton.

    https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-vine-worried-about-bbc-presenters-state-of-mind-12919532

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491
    TimS said:

    Sort of FPT given the 12th July bonfire pictures. I fell and cracked 4 ribs on Sunday night and have been in hospital ever since.

    The question is whether I go ahead with the planned fortnight’s holiday to Georgia at the end of July, or give it up on the basis the ribs won’t be fully healed by then. A holiday with a lot going on so not a quiet city break or beach type of affair.

    You will not be healed by the end of July! I’d cancel if you can get money back.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    TimS said:

    Sort of FPT given the 12th July bonfire pictures. I fell and cracked 4 ribs on Sunday night and have been in hospital ever since.

    The question is whether I go ahead with the planned fortnight’s holiday to Georgia at the end of July, or give it up on the basis the ribs won’t be fully healed by then. A holiday with a lot going on so not a quiet city break or beach type of affair.

    Midnight train Georgia, or the country?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    That's an interesting theory, but I suspect the New Labour grandees advising Starmer will keep anything they think is electorally toxic well hidden.
    Corbyn put out 2 election manifestos with a bunch of poorly costed properly lefty policies and on neither occasion did they negatively impact his polling. Indeed in 2017 they arguably bolstered it a bit. It was the other stuff that did for him. So I can’t see anything the shadow cabinet puts out this time causing mass panic, unless they announce a 5p increase in the basic rate.
  • I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.
  • Somebody else pays taxes rather than me is also a popular policy in polling....

    Rich* barstewards paying more tax, you mean.

    *Easy to define - anyone earning twice the person you are talking to earns. Not uncommon to find people on £50K talking about how poor they are.
    Frankly, if you have a mortgage, £50k per year doesn't get you much more than a broom cupboard, and with rates rising, those broom cupboards are suddenly looking exceptionally precarious. Yes, people on £50k can indeed be functionally poor.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,215
    Miklosvar said:

    TimS said:

    Sort of FPT given the 12th July bonfire pictures. I fell and cracked 4 ribs on Sunday night and have been in hospital ever since.

    The question is whether I go ahead with the planned fortnight’s holiday to Georgia at the end of July, or give it up on the basis the ribs won’t be fully healed by then. A holiday with a lot going on so not a quiet city break or beach type of affair.

    Midnight train Georgia, or the country?
    The country.

    Rearranging will be dead annoying because I have about 7 different online hotel bookings, cars, restaurants and separately booked flights. Plus no easy opportunity to postpone because of limited school holidays.

    A right bugger.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437
    TimS said:

    Sort of FPT given the 12th July bonfire pictures. I fell and cracked 4 ribs on Sunday night and have been in hospital ever since.

    The question is whether I go ahead with the planned fortnight’s holiday to Georgia at the end of July, or give it up on the basis the ribs won’t be fully healed by then. A holiday with a lot going on so not a quiet city break or beach type of affair.

    Not a doctor but ribs are next to lungs so I'd be wary of flying and rapid changes in air pressure.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    edited July 2023
    I just looked up my alma mater - the fees are up almost exactly 10x since I was there three decades ago.

    £15k a year for a day school, plus lunches and transport. You need to earn £25k per child, plus your mortgage, to do that now.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    FPT I'm totally unconvinced that the story about the BBC presenter and the alleged underage child, is all some wicked plot on the part of the Conservatives. BBC News has been giving maximum publicity to this, not just The Sun.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913
    Can't see it being a real flagship policy in that it doesn't achieve very much.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,958

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    Sean_F said:

    FPT I'm totally unconvinced that the story about the BBC presenter and the alleged underage child, is all some wicked plot on the part of the Conservatives. BBC News has been giving maximum publicity to this, not just The Sun.

    For the record, I wasn't insinuating it was the Tories. I don't think it is them.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    kinabalu said:

    This policy from Labour is a jewel because it appeals to floating voters and at the same time to the left of the party. These are often in conflict.

    Bingo. And the Tories will tie themselves in knots around it, giving a bit of clear blue sky between the two parties.

    Woe betide the first senior Labour member to send *their* kids private though.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,437

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    That's an interesting theory, but I suspect the New Labour grandees advising Starmer will keep anything they think is electorally toxic well hidden.
    Undoubtedly but do they actually know which policies will prove controversial? It is not as if they've been given a thorough airing, and an hour-long focus group with six people doesn't count.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
    No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
    That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    Sandpit said:

    I just looked up my alma mater - the fees are up almost exactly 10x since I was there three decades ago.

    £15k a year for a day school, plus lunches and transport. You need to earn £25k per child, plus your mortgage, to do that now.

    Don't forget the school trips.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    Sandpit said:

    I just looked up my alma mater - the fees are up almost exactly 10x since I was there three decades ago.

    £15k a year for a day school, plus lunches and transport. You need to earn £25k per child, plus your mortgage, to do that now.

    x10 in 30 years ~ 8% a year for 30 years <= demand <= rich getting richer fast.
    Same logic applies to high-end properties.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    But that 93% are going to find themselves worse off with this policy.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Sandpit said:

    I just looked up my alma mater - the fees are up almost exactly 10x since I was there three decades ago.

    £15k a year for a day school, plus lunches and transport. You need to earn £25k per child, plus your mortgage, to do that now.

    Don't forget the school trips.
    And music is extra.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,148

    Somebody else pays taxes rather than me is also a popular policy in polling....

    Rich* barstewards paying more tax, you mean.

    *Easy to define - anyone earning twice the person you are talking to earns. Not uncommon to find people on £50K talking about how poor they are.
    Frankly, if you have a mortgage, £50k per year doesn't get you much more than a broom cupboard, and with rates rising, those broom cupboards are suddenly looking exceptionally precarious. Yes, people on £50k can indeed be functionally poor.

    According to the ONS, the average salary in the UK in 2022 for all employees was £27,756, a 6.8% increase from 2021. For full-time workers, the average UK salary in 2022 was £33,000 exactly, a 5.7% increase YoY.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Omnium said:

    Can't see it being a real flagship policy in that it doesn't achieve very much.

    Like Free Schools - it's low impact but signals a lot.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    Sandpit said:

    I just looked up my alma mater - the fees are up almost exactly 10x since I was there three decades ago.

    £15k a year for a day school, plus lunches and transport. You need to earn £25k per child, plus your mortgage, to do that now.

    It's moved from something that was possible for the lower middle class to something only the rich can afford, with I expect the less well off pupils being replaced by overseas parents wanting the best education for their child.

    So I expect VAT on fees would actually raise income.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    Somebody else pays taxes rather than me is also a popular policy in polling....

    Rich* barstewards paying more tax, you mean.

    *Easy to define - anyone earning twice the person you are talking to earns. Not uncommon to find people on £50K talking about how poor they are.
    Frankly, if you have a mortgage, £50k per year doesn't get you much more than a broom cupboard, and with rates rising, those broom cupboards are suddenly looking exceptionally precarious. Yes, people on £50k can indeed be functionally poor.
    It all depends where you live.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,148

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    But that 93% are going to find themselves worse off with this policy.
    Actually improving state education is too difficult to do. Since that would imply things like the DfE being dropped in to the Sun, OFSTED being mass arrested etc...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,079
    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
    No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
    That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
    I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,913
    Ghedebrav said:

    Omnium said:

    Can't see it being a real flagship policy in that it doesn't achieve very much.

    Like Free Schools - it's low impact but signals a lot.
    I expect it to be one of their policies, just not at the top of the list. After all it's not at all an unreasonable view that such a change might decrease the overall quality of education in the UK even if they do put all of the revenue back into education.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    TimS said:

    Sort of FPT given the 12th July bonfire pictures. I fell and cracked 4 ribs on Sunday night and have been in hospital ever since.

    The question is whether I go ahead with the planned fortnight’s holiday to Georgia at the end of July, or give it up on the basis the ribs won’t be fully healed by then. A holiday with a lot going on so not a quiet city break or beach type of affair.

    Not a doctor but ribs are next to lungs so I'd be wary of flying and rapid changes in air pressure.
    Ugh, my ribs are basically dust after falling off my bike too many times. It's a rubbish injury and you have my sympathy @TimS.

    It's one of them that you basically can't do much about. It'll hurt till it's healed. I guess the question is whether you would be in the same amount of discomfort at home.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    That's an interesting theory, but I suspect the New Labour grandees advising Starmer will keep anything they think is electorally toxic well hidden.
    Of course. No party serious about winning will present gifts to their opponents.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,688
    edited July 2023
    Ofh dear Sunak showing a terrible lack of political nouse in Vilnius.

    He started his news conference well - setting out the plans to bring Ukraine into NATO and the progress made generally in supporting them by other means.

    But then why oh why did he go off the deeep end all about how wonderful the UK is - not least the comments about the UK giving more than another 20 NATO members. And then banging on about how wonderful our armed forces are. This may or may not all be true but it the sort of stuff you say to a domsetic audience back in the UK not to an international audience at a major NATO conference in Eastern Europe.

    It just sounds like crass politicking and self serving glorification. Not the tone he should have been adopting in front of our allies.
  • Sandpit said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
    You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...

    Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)

    In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    That's an interesting theory, but I suspect the New Labour grandees advising Starmer will keep anything they think is electorally toxic well hidden.
    Undoubtedly but do they actually know which policies will prove controversial? It is not as if they've been given a thorough airing, and an hour-long focus group with six people doesn't count.
    I would suggest that the New Labour grandees are more likely to believe in toxic policies, not less. Most people favour renationalisation of utilities, for example, including Tory voters - but Starmer and the New Labour blob are walking all that back. You want policies that unite your base and divide your opponents base; Labour under SKS seems determined to divide their own base and get the opposing base by default. If current polling means much it looks like it will work, but I guess we'll have to see.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    edited July 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    I just looked up my alma mater - the fees are up almost exactly 10x since I was there three decades ago.

    £15k a year for a day school, plus lunches and transport. You need to earn £25k per child, plus your mortgage, to do that now.

    It's moved from something that was possible for the lower middle class to something only the rich can afford, with I expect the less well off pupils being replaced by overseas parents wanting the best education for their child.

    So I expect VAT on fees would actually raise income.
    Definitely true, your first sentence. Friend of mine went to a fairly respectable "public school" in the Midlands. Was full of the children of country GPs, Midlands metalbasher firm owners, accountants, and farmers, and a sprinkling from the elite of the former Empire. Now, his children have just been there. Very different now, the first category much more than decimated, and largely replaced as you say by overseas parents from all over.

    A revealing anecdote: in the old days the younger children in each boarding house went off for a house weekend in the school outward bound base, in the hills somewhere, at least once in their time there. Not negotiable. Everyone had to try it at least once out in the heather and hills. Modern generation: one (female) house voted against going, simply because the shopping was crap, or rather completely nonexistent.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592

    Sandpit said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
    You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...

    Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)

    In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
    I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...

    So that story doesn't wash.

    Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    Cookie said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
    No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
    That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
    I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
    Which is the exact huge problem we face.

    What political party is going to run with "We live beyond our means all our living standards have to fall so we are living within our means" and have a hope in hell of being elected.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Cookie said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
    No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
    That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
    I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
    I mean, climate change, housing, inflation, what to do about a crumbling and understaffed NHS, school system and legal system all seem pretty significant. And we aren't living beyond our means as a country - the wealth exists out there to provide these services: the labour power of workers who specialise in these things exist. It has just been deprioritised in favour of private profits.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,491
    edited July 2023
    .

    Sandpit said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
    You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...

    Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)

    In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
    Most of the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring cannot remotely afford private school fees at present.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592
    Cookie said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
    No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
    That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
    I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
    Except you look at the areas where the Government spends money and none of them are in a position where cuts can be made..
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    But that 93% are going to find themselves worse off with this policy.
    Do you mean the 93% of the current cabinet who went to private school? Suspect we'd be better off without them, actually.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,412
    edited July 2023
    FPT @bondegezou.

    viewcode said:

    I thought the Matrix was all about Trans and not really virtual reality at all? Red Pill = Hormones etc etc etc.

    /Ducks

    Gnnngkt, I know what you mean (and it's a view with increasing traction, especially with what happened with the Wachowskis and it being what they actually intended), but if you'll forgive me coming over all "Death of the Author" for the moment, I think it works better as a slavery/AfricanAmerican experience metaphor, and certainly served more people with that reading. If you want a trans metaphor, I'd go with "Blade Runner".
    Would you mind expanding more on both metaphors, as you see them?

    The Matrix. The originals occupiers of a land are taken against their will by people originally thought of as friends and used as farm animals for their labour whilst being fed false testimony designed to keep them happy and compliant, and hunted down by implacable white men if they try to escape. Some, having freed themselves of their literal and metaphorical chains, realise the true facts and devote themselves to the overthrow of their overseers and the system that imprisons them.

    Blade Runner. Five (I know, I know...) people who are not genetically male/female escape from their subcultures and attempt to fit into the normal world, co-opting the experiences of cisgender men and women to pass as normal. One of them who works as a stripper inflames a cop to the point that he kills her instead of deal with his attraction. After a murder spree he reconciles to his sexuality and rides off with one of his intended victims into the future.

    The Swimmer. In a sincere but ill-advised attempt to live the American dream, a middle-aged white executive flits from job to job, pursuing success to the neglect of his wife and children. Realising his mistake he attempts to return but finds his happy home in a state of disrepair, with only himself to blame.

    Thunderbolt and Lightfoot. Two older gay men each fall in love with a younger man, who they use as a sexual lure to gain wealth. They argue and can no longer regain their happy relationship, and the resultant fight terminates their relationship. The older man takes the younger man away to build a new relationship but the younger man was injured by the conflict and dies, because it's the 1970s and Bury Your Gays. Chastened the older man, having lost his chances at happiness due to his lust and infidelity, is left alone.

    Juggernaut.1970s Britain, having overspent and a shadow of its former self, is threatened by a bombing campaign. Its inhabitants desperately try to remain jolly whist grim faced men try to defuse the bombs.

    Minority Report. One of the characters explicitly says that his prisoners are fed subconscious fantasies whilst imprisoned, just before the hero is imprisoned therein. The rest of the film is not the real events but his electronically induced lived fantasy.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    eek said:

    Cookie said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
    No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
    That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
    I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
    Except you look at the areas where the Government spends money and none of them are in a position where cuts can be made..
    Which is why I argue we need to reduce the number of area's the government spends money.

  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    To make that argument you'd have to bring in the value of the assets owned by the private schools which the state could seize. For Eton that's at least £0.6bn.

    The published figure for Eton's assets rose 37% between 2010 and 2015. Who've they got managing their money? The ghost of J M Keynes? [*]

    * For those who don't get this joke: Keynes's lifelong day job was as bursar of King's College, Cambridge - which in the past was closely connected to Eton - where he didn't quite do as well as the bursar of Trinity (the Science Park, etc.), but he still did damned well and was known as a super-duper green-fingered stock picker.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,352
    Starmer... in tune with the nation
    Tories... in tune with Damian Lewis
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Omnium said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Omnium said:

    Can't see it being a real flagship policy in that it doesn't achieve very much.

    Like Free Schools - it's low impact but signals a lot.
    I expect it to be one of their policies, just not at the top of the list. After all it's not at all an unreasonable view that such a change might decrease the overall quality of education in the UK even if they do put all of the revenue back into education.
    There again, the much-vaunted Finnish education system has no meaningful private sector.

    But educational inequality is a symptom of wider societal inequality, albeit one that tends to reinforce and exacerbate it. Abolish the private schools and all their customers would instead divert their money into moving to the right catchment area.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,148
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
    You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...

    Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)

    In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
    I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...

    So that story doesn't wash.

    Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
    Back in the 80s, my parents were (University lecturer & university admin) sent me to a private school. Our house was OK - very much done up from a wreck one room at a time, though. For years the carpet in my room was salvage from an office that a relative had worked at.

    To understand the scaling - back then, sending two kids to a good private school was kind of the cost of one of those hobbies - like sailing - that consumes all your spare cash and leaves it all a bit tight.

    Not a salary, by itself, as now.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,927
    eek said:

    Cookie said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
    No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
    That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
    I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
    Except you look at the areas where the Government spends money and none of them are in a position where cuts can be made..
    And so the answer is - we need to grow.

    Truss got the problem right, she just hadn’t won the argument with either the electorate or the markets for her proposed solutions. Ways of fixing this will need to be much more incremental and thought through.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    Peck said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    To make that argument you'd have to bring in the value of the assets owned by the private schools which the state could seize. For Eton that's at least £0.6bn.

    The published figure for Eton's assets rose 37% between 2010 and 2015. Who've they got managing their money? The ghost of J M Keynes? [*]

    * For those who don't get this joke: Keynes's lifelong day job was as bursar of King's College, Cambridge - which in the past was closely connected to Eton - where he didn't quite do as well as the bursar of Trinity (the Science Park, etc.), but he still did damned well and was known as a super-duper green-fingered stock picker.
    Siezing assets or even advocating it is a dangerous slippery slope to go down. It might seem good to you when its private schools what happens when they decide your private pension assets and your private home should be seized and all have to survive on a state pension
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    Sean_F said:

    FPT I'm totally unconvinced that the story about the BBC presenter and the alleged underage child, is all some wicked plot on the part of the Conservatives. BBC News has been giving maximum publicity to this, not just The Sun.

    Not just BBC News and The Sun, most of the media has been covering it prominently.

    There's a story if this guy was paying a 17 year old, legally a child, for indecent pictures. There's a story if it is grooming or a power imbalance being abused. The power imbalance was certainly something that was core to the allegations against Pip.

    If it is two consenting adults, which is where it seems to be heading, then I cannot see why it is such an issue.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,148
    Peck said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    To make that argument you'd have to bring in the value of the assets owned by the private schools which the state could seize. For Eton that's at least £0.6bn.

    The published figure for Eton's assets rose 37% between 2010 and 2015. Who've they got managing their money? The ghost of J M Keynes? [*]

    * For those who don't get this joke: Keynes's lifelong day job was as bursar of King's College, Cambridge - which in the past was closely connected to Eton - where he didn't quite do as well as the bursar of Trinity (the Science Park, etc.), but he still did damned well and was known as a super-duper green-fingered stock picker.
    The management of money at Eton as always been clever. They made money on digging the rowing lake...
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
    You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...

    Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)

    In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
    I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...

    So that story doesn't wash.

    Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
    Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2023
    These tax breaks are particularly vital for small private day school fees. They remember do not get the funding big, ancient public boarding schools get from super rich parents the world over. Nor do they get the taxpayer funding state schools do.

    Not only would scrapping tax relief and charitable status for private schools reduce parental choice therefore, it would also reduce scholarships in private schools, making them even more exclusive. Plus add to the taxpayer funds needed for additional state school pupils.

    I would be furious if any Tory leader joined Starmer in such an un Conservative policy and would push for their removal immediately. Thankfully Rishi is not going down that route and fully supports charitable status for private schools as well as donating to his old alma mater of Winchester for bursaries and scholarships.

    Note too a recent ISC Public First poll contradicts Yougov and found just 37% wanted to remove private schools tax relief. 48% wanted them to keep that tax relief, broken down by 30% for keeping it by increasing the amount done for public benefit eg sharing facilities and 18% wanting to keep the tax relief regardless.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/08/poll-labour-private-school-tax-breaks/


    I am shocked TSE would consider backing such a class war policy. Without his private education and Cambridge degree he might not have ever become a senior compliance person writing PB headers!

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,148
    Ghedebrav said:

    Omnium said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Omnium said:

    Can't see it being a real flagship policy in that it doesn't achieve very much.

    Like Free Schools - it's low impact but signals a lot.
    I expect it to be one of their policies, just not at the top of the list. After all it's not at all an unreasonable view that such a change might decrease the overall quality of education in the UK even if they do put all of the revenue back into education.
    There again, the much-vaunted Finnish education system has no meaningful private sector.

    But educational inequality is a symptom of wider societal inequality, albeit one that tends to reinforce and exacerbate it. Abolish the private schools and all their customers would instead divert their money into moving to the right catchment area.
    A large part of the problem is denial. So, the issue of children who don't want to be in school and actively try and prevent others education is.... avoided. And only spoken about in terms of "Exclusion" - a process by which, for no apparent reason, schools don't want some children.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    Pagan2 said:

    Peck said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    To make that argument you'd have to bring in the value of the assets owned by the private schools which the state could seize. For Eton that's at least £0.6bn.

    The published figure for Eton's assets rose 37% between 2010 and 2015. Who've they got managing their money? The ghost of J M Keynes? [*]

    * For those who don't get this joke: Keynes's lifelong day job was as bursar of King's College, Cambridge - which in the past was closely connected to Eton - where he didn't quite do as well as the bursar of Trinity (the Science Park, etc.), but he still did damned well and was known as a super-duper green-fingered stock picker.
    Siezing assets or even advocating it is a dangerous slippery slope to go down. It might seem good to you when its private schools what happens when they decide your private pension assets and your private home should be seized and all have to survive on a state pension
    But when they aren't private assets, but assets held in trust for public purposes - the definition of a charity ...?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    Cookie said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I suspect Starmer will be viewed as in tune with the nation right up until they publish their general election manifesto. The I suspect their poll ratings will do a Theresa May plummet.

    Do you think that the manifesto will be to the right or left of where the public are? Because at the moment I think it's more likely to be to the right of public sentiment, and leave a wide area for left wing attacks on Starmer's Labour Party.
    No idea whether it will be right or left, I just think most people will look at it and go that isn't fixing any of our problems, the same will be true of the tory , green, snp and libdem manifestos
    That's a reasonable take - the problems in front of us are massive and nothing short of revolutionary change on par with war time economy moves will deal with them. I feel Labour's manifesto will be a dull turd, and it will disappoint a number of people on the left, whilst not actually having enough of the red meat stuff wanted by those who would typically vote Tory, and so the LDs and Greens will have an opportunity to suggest radical change and get interest from voters. If the Tories keep polling as badly as they are, potentially squeezing for votes becomes harder - if the electorate see Tory defeat as inevitable they might feel less likely that they need to vote Labour to get the Tories out and can afford to vote for one of the alternatives if they truly want to.
    I don't think the problems we face are that massive. We just need to face the fact that we are living beyond our means, and have been doing so since about 2001. And then we need to stop doing so. This isn't going to impoverish us - just make us realise that we aren't as rich as we thought.
    My own view is the UK economy will be in a considerably better place in 2030 than in 2020 or 2010. That's because we won't have had zero interest rates, we won't see asset prices as a one way bet, and companies will have to get used to wage rises, and boosting productivity to pay for them.
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    Omnium said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Omnium said:

    Can't see it being a real flagship policy in that it doesn't achieve very much.

    Like Free Schools - it's low impact but signals a lot.
    I expect it to be one of their policies, just not at the top of the list. After all it's not at all an unreasonable view that such a change might decrease the overall quality of education in the UK even if they do put all of the revenue back into education.
    If they are so chickenshit as to pay respect to that kind of "not unreasonable" view, Labour will never win the election. (Not that I think they will anyway.)

    Tories have no concept of the "overall quality of education" in the country. Labour figures need to say that into their faces and get them to answer on film, in the TV studios and in the Commons. This isn't difficult at all. If Labour was a real oppositional party they'd do this.

    They also need to say we're going to hammer the sh*t out of the private schools on our first day in office. Something like disendowing them would work fine.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Peck said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    To make that argument you'd have to bring in the value of the assets owned by the private schools which the state could seize. For Eton that's at least £0.6bn.

    The published figure for Eton's assets rose 37% between 2010 and 2015. Who've they got managing their money? The ghost of J M Keynes? [*]

    * For those who don't get this joke: Keynes's lifelong day job was as bursar of King's College, Cambridge - which in the past was closely connected to Eton - where he didn't quite do as well as the bursar of Trinity (the Science Park, etc.), but he still did damned well and was known as a super-duper green-fingered stock picker.
    Siezing assets or even advocating it is a dangerous slippery slope to go down. It might seem good to you when its private schools what happens when they decide your private pension assets and your private home should be seized and all have to survive on a state pension
    But when they aren't private assets, but assets held in trust for public purposes - the definition of a charity ...?
    I'm not convinced that the government seizing the assets of a charity is a good idea.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    First like the class of education I received.

    But I was given to understand you went to Cambridge?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,958

    Sandpit said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
    You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...

    Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)

    In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
    Why should people be able to buy privilege for their children at the expense of other children?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    148grss said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
    Everyone is always saying spend more money, whether education, justice,immigration or the NHS. Never any suggestions where that money comes from. I suspect if we had 100% tax rates for all and all our income went to the state that there would still be people rightly saying these things are still underfunded.

    When you have x income you prioritize spending so it comes to no more than x.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    Sean_F said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Peck said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    To make that argument you'd have to bring in the value of the assets owned by the private schools which the state could seize. For Eton that's at least £0.6bn.

    The published figure for Eton's assets rose 37% between 2010 and 2015. Who've they got managing their money? The ghost of J M Keynes? [*]

    * For those who don't get this joke: Keynes's lifelong day job was as bursar of King's College, Cambridge - which in the past was closely connected to Eton - where he didn't quite do as well as the bursar of Trinity (the Science Park, etc.), but he still did damned well and was known as a super-duper green-fingered stock picker.
    Siezing assets or even advocating it is a dangerous slippery slope to go down. It might seem good to you when its private schools what happens when they decide your private pension assets and your private home should be seized and all have to survive on a state pension
    But when they aren't private assets, but assets held in trust for public purposes - the definition of a charity ...?
    I'm not convinced that the government seizing the assets of a charity is a good idea.
    Redirecting? Isn't that what happens when a charity is mismanaged? It gets sorted out and the assets put to proper use.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,148
    148grss said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
    £7,200 a head in a state school.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,228
    TimS said:

    Sort of FPT given the 12th July bonfire pictures. I fell and cracked 4 ribs on Sunday night and have been in hospital ever since.

    The question is whether I go ahead with the planned fortnight’s holiday to Georgia at the end of July, or give it up on the basis the ribs won’t be fully healed by then. A holiday with a lot going on so not a quiet city break or beach type of affair.

    Surely FTP rather than FPT, given the date?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    DougSeal said:

    First like the class of education I received.

    But I was given to understand you went to Cambridge?
    The Dump?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    Miklosvar said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
    You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...

    Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)

    In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
    I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...

    So that story doesn't wash.

    Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
    Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
    The days when JAMs could scrimp a bit harder to send their children to private school are pretty much gone.

    The proportion of children attending private school is close to zero across the vast majority of the income distribution, and doesn’t rise above 10% of the cohort except among those with the top 5% of incomes. Only half of those in the top 1% send their kids to private school.

    https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/2021/02/08/housing-wealth-not-bursaries-explains-much-of-private-school-participation-for-those-without-high-income
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Totally agree @TSE
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    148grss said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
    £7,200 a head in a state school.

    Interesting, reasonably sure that's less than my inflation adjusted fees back in the 80s and 90s.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,393
    edited July 2023
    HYUFD said:

    These tax breaks are particularly vital for small private day school fees. They remember do not get the funding big, ancient public boarding schools get from super rich parents the world over. Nor do they get the taxpayer funding state schools do.

    Not only would scrapping tax relief and charitable status for private schools reduce parental choice therefore, it would also reduce scholarships in private schools, making them even more exclusive. Plus add to the taxpayer funds needed for additional state school pupils.

    I would be furious if any Tory leader joined Starmer in such an un Conservative policy and would push for their removal immediately. Thankfully Rishi is not going down that route and fully supports charitable status for private schools as well as donating to his old alma mater of Winchester for bursaries and scholarships.

    Note too a recent ISC Public First poll contradicts Yougov and found just 37% wanted to remove private schools tax relief. 48% wanted them to keep that tax relief, broken down by 30% for keeping it by increasing the amount done for public benefit eg sharing facilities and 18% wanting to keep the tax relief regardless.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/08/poll-labour-private-school-tax-breaks/


    I am shocked TSE would consider backing such a class war policy. Without his private education and Cambridge degree he might not have ever become a senior compliance person writing PB headers!

    Quite an admission from you that the state education provided under (mostly) the Conservative Party is unfit for purpose.

    Edit: the degree (no pun intended) to which it really is, and to which TSE actually needed either, are other matters, of course.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    New rules to allow people without degrees to become judges to increase diversity.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/thousands-more-can-apply-to-become-judges-under-plans-to-expand-diversity

    Thousands more can apply to become judges under plans to expand diversity

    The move will increase the number of judicial roles that legal professionals from under-represented groups can apply for – better reflecting modern, multi-cultural, twenty-first century Britain.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
    Everyone is always saying spend more money, whether education, justice,immigration or the NHS. Never any suggestions where that money comes from. I suspect if we had 100% tax rates for all and all our income went to the state that there would still be people rightly saying these things are still underfunded.

    When you have x income you prioritize spending so it comes to no more than x.
    If you cannot provide a health service, if you cannot educate the next generation, if you cannot enforce and adjudicate on matters of law - you aren't a functioning state: you're a mode of making sure capital funnels upwards. The point of modern society is the acceptance that there is a base line experience all people should have, and we aren't currently meeting that standard.

    MMT people argue when you control your own currency you don't need income to control spending, and taxation is there to deal with inflation rather than balancing the books. I'm not a great economics understander, but at the end of the day individuals and corporations are making huge profits and they get to see the benefits, not average people - I'd prefer to see a world where it was the other way around. I don't think anyone needs a billion pounds, for example: 100% tax rate after that is fine by me. Hell, after half a billion. Either companies would have to invest it in other things, or the state will use it. We should also target wealth better rather than just income - land, dividends, stocks etc.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    Re those citing the lesser known/less prestigious schools where apparently parents won't pay an extra 20% in fees, I do find it a bizarre argument from those on the right that businesses that cannot survive without government subsidy must therefore be subsidised.

    The assumed generosity of parents in paying private fees while also paying tax to educate the plebs is another interesting justification. My parents chose to run a car, paying VAT on the purchase price and tax on the fuel while simultaneously subsidising the rail travel of other people through their taxes. Surely that was horibly unjust and they should have got tax breaks on their car use for public-spiritedly avoiding the trains?

    Sometimes there are just things you have to look at and decide whether they are justified. I'm put in mind of the former NHS funding of homeopathy. Pulling that funding may have cost us money - perhaps the patients access real, more expensive (although more cost effective) medicines instead. Perhaps they lived longer, with consequent higher overall healthcare costs. But using public money to fund homeopathy was still the wrong thing to do.

    I don't really care either way about private schools. I've no hatred of them (a close family member is deputy head at one in London) but also little interest as I would never consider sending my children to a private school. Let them compete. Let the market operate. Let people decide whether or not to pay the full economic rate for private education. Subsidising charities with little charitable activity is bizarre - where there is a real charitable purpose, the case can be made and/or a charitable trust (preserving notable buildings, providing wide access sports facilities, providing scholarships to the gifted etc) can run with a sister business providing education for a fee.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    New rules to allow people without degrees to become judges to increase diversity.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/thousands-more-can-apply-to-become-judges-under-plans-to-expand-diversity

    Thousands more can apply to become judges under plans to expand diversity

    The move will increase the number of judicial roles that legal professionals from under-represented groups can apply for – better reflecting modern, multi-cultural, twenty-first century Britain.

    I can't see that making any difference in practice.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005
    148grss said:

    Pagan2 said:

    148grss said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
    Everyone is always saying spend more money, whether education, justice,immigration or the NHS. Never any suggestions where that money comes from. I suspect if we had 100% tax rates for all and all our income went to the state that there would still be people rightly saying these things are still underfunded.

    When you have x income you prioritize spending so it comes to no more than x.
    If you cannot provide a health service, if you cannot educate the next generation, if you cannot enforce and adjudicate on matters of law - you aren't a functioning state: you're a mode of making sure capital funnels upwards. The point of modern society is the acceptance that there is a base line experience all people should have, and we aren't currently meeting that standard.

    MMT people argue when you control your own currency you don't need income to control spending, and taxation is there to deal with inflation rather than balancing the books. I'm not a great economics understander, but at the end of the day individuals and corporations are making huge profits and they get to see the benefits, not average people - I'd prefer to see a world where it was the other way around. I don't think anyone needs a billion pounds, for example: 100% tax rate after that is fine by me. Hell, after half a billion. Either companies would have to invest it in other things, or the state will use it. We should also target wealth better rather than just income - land, dividends, stocks etc.
    I was talking of a 100% tax rate for all. I do not believe everything the state currently does can be fully funded and wouldn't have people saying the state needs to spend more if they took every penny every single company and person earns.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,031
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    I just looked up my alma mater - the fees are up almost exactly 10x since I was there three decades ago.

    £15k a year for a day school, plus lunches and transport. You need to earn £25k per child, plus your mortgage, to do that now.

    It's moved from something that was possible for the lower middle class to something only the rich can afford, with I expect the less well off pupils being replaced by overseas parents wanting the best education for their child.

    So I expect VAT on fees would actually raise income.
    Surely the overseas students’ parents, mostly of boarders, would find a way to claim the VAT back through a business or an export agreement? With boarding fees approaching £50k, two kids means you’ve got £20k to spend on the lawyers and the company setup.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    148grss said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
    £7,200 a head in a state school.

    About 14k in Private Schools overall:




    https://ifs.org.uk/publications/tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,256

    Sandpit said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
    You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...

    Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)

    In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
    It's a political choice.
    There's no good moral argument why private schools, which provide only very limited benefits to those who don't pay fees, should have charitable status.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,975
    DougSeal said:

    First like the class of education I received.

    But I was given to understand you went to Cambridge?
    I did, it was the place that gave me so much self confidence.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Miklosvar said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
    You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...

    Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)

    In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
    I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...

    So that story doesn't wash.

    Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
    Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
    I went to a sink comp, my wife went to a high-achieving private school. We've ended up in roughly the same place.

    I'm not sure what that says or what you can extrapolate from it. But it doesn't sell private education to me, even if we could afford it.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Ghedebrav said:

    Omnium said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Omnium said:

    Can't see it being a real flagship policy in that it doesn't achieve very much.

    Like Free Schools - it's low impact but signals a lot.
    I expect it to be one of their policies, just not at the top of the list. After all it's not at all an unreasonable view that such a change might decrease the overall quality of education in the UK even if they do put all of the revenue back into education.
    There again, the much-vaunted Finnish education system has no meaningful private sector.

    But educational inequality is a symptom of wider societal inequality, albeit one that tends to reinforce and exacerbate it. Abolish the private schools and all their customers would instead divert their money into moving to the right catchment area.
    A large part of the problem is denial. So, the issue of children who don't want to be in school and actively try and prevent others education is.... avoided. And only spoken about in terms of "Exclusion" - a process by which, for no apparent reason, schools don't want some children.
    But we blame the individual children rather than the system. Teaching and learning in this country is dire, because the government believe in almost Victorian modes of learning. In the countries that excel the most children either have a significantly greater sausage factory existence (I'm thinking of China) or have fewer pressures, fewer tests and more opportunity to learn in free environments (I'm thinking of the Scandiwegian countries).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,679

    Miklosvar said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    That was me too. Two foreign holidays in 18 years.
    You were lucky. I had to live in a cardboard box...

    Seriously though... we never had holidays. And I genuinely did live in a house with a broken pane of glass in my bedroom window covered with a bit of cardboard for 2 years that my parents literally couldn't afford to fix - that was fun in winter! (Not sure they were really wise about that, I suspect the heating bill savings could have paid for the glass, but they didn't see it that way at the time!)

    In any case, the people who sacrifice everything for their kids and aspire for better for their offspring are not going to look kindly on Labour making their lives worse. Obviously with the current political climate, I don't suppose it'd swing an election, but morally wrong is morally wrong in my opinion.
    I don't think a family unable to afford a window repair are going to have children in Private Education...

    So that story doesn't wash.

    Reality is a few middle class parents may not vote for Labour because of that policy but the flip side is that it will get some (possible a lot of) activists willing to do a bit more door knocking and that would probably more than offset the lost votes in that gets others out.
    Bit churlish to call other posters, liars. Most things are on fairly continuous spectrums and that includes private education; people buying it range from those to whom the expense is negligible, to the serious scrimpers. My parents fixed broken windows but no foreign hols, no TV, no central heating. Not saying this is desirable; frankly I am clever enough to have done fine at a state school, and it has bought me 50 years of feeling guilty at the shit life my mother had. But it is true.
    The days when JAMs could scrimp a bit harder to send their children to private school are pretty much gone.

    The proportion of children attending private school is close to zero across the vast majority of the income distribution, and doesn’t rise above 10% of the cohort except among those with the top 5% of incomes. Only half of those in the top 1% send their kids to private school.

    https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/2021/02/08/housing-wealth-not-bursaries-explains-much-of-private-school-participation-for-those-without-high-income
    The broadbrush I once calculated (I forget exactly how) was that 10% of people can afford it and about half of those do it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,005

    148grss said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I fundamentally object to the plan to tax private education. Many parents, like mine - average middle class people - sacrificed everything so I could have a private education, to the point where we essentially lived close to poverty. No luxuries, no holidays, no nicer house that my Dad had promised my Mum when they got married. Had the fees been lumbered with a 20% additional charge, my education would have, by necessity, reverted to the State. And, the State would have had to find a space for me and pay for it. As it is, my parents paid their taxes for other people's kids to be educated and then paid extra for me. And Labour want to penalise such people even more. Talk about the politics of envy.

    Doesn't change the fact that 93% of the population don't benefit from private education.
    Yes, they actually do. Because the 7% that pay for private education are also paying into the Exchequer for the education of everyone else, and not exercising their right to avail themselves of it thus enabling the use of that money for the benefit of others. Imagine if private education were banned... suddenly the State would have to find a lot of extra money to educate all the influx of formerly privately educated students.
    What is the cost per head of a pupil educated by the state and the cost per head of a pupil educated by a private school? I assume the state spends less money per head, but I don't know. Also, I'd prefer the state spend more on public education with the aim of improving all educational outcomes, to the point of even banning private schools, because I think it is important for equitable treatment of kids and equity of opportunity. That most PMs went to Eton has nothing to do with skill or aptitude, and everything to do with privilege.
    £7,200 a head in a state school.

    About 14k in Private Schools overall:




    https://ifs.org.uk/publications/tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending
    All abolishing private education would actually achieve is to push up the price of housing in the catchement areas of good state schools and push poorer people out of those areas. The poor would actually end up with less opportunity for a good education and be condemned to sink schools.
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