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Can the LDs become the third party once again? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,351

    BIB - Shame on Rishi.

    Rishi Sunak accuses Australia of breaching spirit of cricket with Jonny Bairstow stumping

    Prime Minister does not plan to speak to his Australian counterpart about controversial incident on Sunday of Lord's Test

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2023/07/03/ashes-rishi-sunak-prime-minister-jonny-bairstow-stumping/

    CLR James was wrong, when he wrote romantic prose about the nobility of cricket. "Cheap wickets and damn the honour of the game" is how Harry Flashman put it.

    What Bairstow's dismissal reminds me of is when Sarfraz Nawaz appealed, after Andrew Hilditch blocked his delivery, then helpfully picked up the ball, and threw it to him. Hilditch was given out. It was shitty, but sadly, those were the rules.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    eek said:

    I see the competition Authority is saying that Morrisons and Asda have increased the price of Petrol / Diesel by 6p a litre because they no longer rush to pass wholesale price cuts down to customers...

    Almost like Private Equity is bad for customers...

    It’s not private equity.
    It’s a failure to regulate oligopoly.
    It's completely mad that the CMA allowed Asda to be bought out by a company of forecourt owners that literally said they only wanted Asda for the forecourts and now the same CMA are saying that competition among petrol retailers has gone down resulting in higher prices.

    No fucking shit, people, including me, said at the time the better buyer for Asda was Sainsbury's because they'd keep the Asda petrol price competition model to drive footfall to large out of town stores. Out by my parents the cheapest petrol is in Sainsbury's in a retail park, £1.33 when I drove past last week. Allowing the Issa's to buy Asda and remove petrol price competition was a disaster and the resolution is to break up the Issa empire and make them forcibly spin half of their forecourts into a new company and then sell it off until their stake hits zero.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,522
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    eek said:

    eek said:

    The Orkney news is being carried by worldwide news outlets, which shows just how much tripe is pumped out by the news media.

    It’s silly season stuff.

    On one level it silly season, but on another level I can see why they are doing it - they've never really regarded themselves as Scottish, hate the lack of money the Scottish Government gives them and need a whole new set of ferries in a hurry because the old ones are dying
    A deracinated Orcadian tweets.




    He lives in Glasgow and writes for the Herald - and given thaty he hasn't provided a source for his quote I'll treat it with the respect it deserves.

    For reference my family traces it's roots to Orkney / Shetland and still has members there - none of whom can stand the SNP..
    You do know the Herald is a notably Unionist newspaper these days? And Mr Leask's family also traces etc.

    Those look like data from the census btw.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    Nonsense for No Good
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    Oh no, not 'common sense'. Rather more 'common' than 'sense' is what that usually means.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    edited July 2023
    Sean_F said:

    BIB - Shame on Rishi.

    Rishi Sunak accuses Australia of breaching spirit of cricket with Jonny Bairstow stumping

    Prime Minister does not plan to speak to his Australian counterpart about controversial incident on Sunday of Lord's Test

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2023/07/03/ashes-rishi-sunak-prime-minister-jonny-bairstow-stumping/

    CLR James was wrong, when he wrote romantic prose about the nobility of cricket. "Cheap wickets and damn the honour of the game" is how Harry Flashman put it.

    What Bairstow's dismissal reminds me of is when Sarfraz Nawaz appealed, after Andrew Hilditch blocked his delivery, then helpfully picked up the ball, and threw it to him. Hilditch was given out. It was shitty, but sadly, those were the rules.
    If Pope's shoulder is giving him gip we could play Foakes at Leeds.

    He is "quick thinking" when it comes to stumpings.

    https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/cricket/11710581/quick-thinking-foakes-stumps-balbirnie
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    The whole webpage seems to be an anti-immigration rant.

    Ideally those "new Conservatives" should be amongst the first to lose their seat at the next election if that is all they care about.
    Ideally they should lose the whip to reflect the fact they are all closet racists
    I think they've come out of the closet tbf.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,034
    edited July 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    The whole webpage seems to be an anti-immigration rant.

    Ideally those "new Conservatives" should be amongst the first to lose their seat at the next election if that is all they care about.
    I doubt Robin Millar has any chance of holding his seat which is my constituency

    The conservative party can only regain it's senses if they are all thrown out of office
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    The whole webpage seems to be an anti-immigration rant.

    Ideally those "new Conservatives" should be amongst the first to lose their seat at the next election if that is all they care about.
    Ideally they should lose the whip to reflect the fact they are all closet racists
    I think they've come out of the closet tbf.
    Meet the New Conservatives. Same as the Old Conservatives.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,253
    A

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    There is a certain species of clipboardista who would take great delight in pulling the chemist’s license for a technical breach of the rules like that.

    Some years ago, in Oxford, the “sell by date” food thing became a bit of a cause. So the local Sainsbury’s left pallets of “one day past the date” food out for the activist types to take away. Outside at the back of the store.

    A local shop inspector claimed that this was *selling* out of date food. And took evident joy in closing the store and forcing the staff to audit every sell-by date on the shelves.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    eek said:

    eek said:

    The Orkney news is being carried by worldwide news outlets, which shows just how much tripe is pumped out by the news media.

    It’s silly season stuff.

    On one level it silly season, but on another level I can see why they are doing it - they've never really regarded themselves as Scottish, hate the lack of money the Scottish Government gives them and need a whole new set of ferries in a hurry because the old ones are dying
    A deracinated Orcadian tweets.




    He lives in Glasgow and writes for the Herald - and given thaty he hasn't provided a source for his quote I'll treat it with the respect it deserves.

    For reference my family traces it's roots to Orkney / Shetland and still has members there - none of whom can stand the SNP..
    He does provide sources if you'd bothered checking.
    As we're constantly told by experts on here, identifying as Scottish has fuck all to do with suporting or not the SNP, whether it's your extended family or the wider population.



    https://twitter.com/LeaskyHT/status/1548254570995888130?s=20
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    The whole webpage seems to be an anti-immigration rant.

    Ideally those "new Conservatives" should be amongst the first to lose their seat at the next election if that is all they care about.
    Yep, all a bit sad. I don't know why the Get Brexit Done manifestation of the Tory Party attracted these people.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.

    But as I understand it the whole debate is about whether the delivery was in fact "complete"
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    edited July 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    The whole webpage seems to be an anti-immigration rant.

    Ideally those "new Conservatives" should be amongst the first to lose their seat at the next election if that is all they care about.
    I think we're starting to see the shape of a post-election defeat Conservative party. It'll do what losing parties always seem to do - lurch further towards the core vote. Not only closing off immigration (or at least shouting about doing so) but having big arguments about the ECHR and probably trying to pick lots of fights over trans issues. Like Labour did first with Ed then Corbyn. Arguably they are already at the equivalent of the Ed M stage so will go straight to the Corbyn.

    I would like to think this will be resoundingly pooh-poohed by the electorate but I suppose that depends what kind of state the country's in come the next election but one.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    kinabalu said:

    I don't know why the Get Brexit Done manifestation of the Tory Party attracted these people.

    Really?

    Everybody else does...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    TimS said:

    I think we're starting to see the shape of a post-election defeat Conservative party. It'll do what losing parties always seem to do - lurch further towards the core vote.

    They are lurching towards the UKIP/BNP core vote, and further away from the Conservative and Unionist core vote
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,215
    edited July 2023

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemists would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    A

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    There is a certain species of clipboardista who would take great delight in pulling the chemist’s license for a technical breach of the rules like that.

    Some years ago, in Oxford, the “sell by date” food thing became a bit of a cause. So the local Sainsbury’s left pallets of “one day past the date” food out for the activist types to take away. Outside at the back of the store.

    A local shop inspector claimed that this was *selling* out of date food. And took evident joy in closing the store and forcing the staff to audit every sell-by date on the shelves.
    I'm sure that's right, but then change the rules. The idea that one cannot compile the dose from multiple tablets is utterly crackers. (And doesn't apparently apply in France, where I was recently prescribed drugs and the pharmacist compiled them because he didn't have the single dose product in stock).
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Any odds on some twunks from Just Stop Oil trying to orange centre court? Anyone know what kind of paint they use and if its oil based?

    The hypocrisy you're looking for wouldn't be there in any case. If your point is that oil is ruining everything, and you used an oil-based product to ruin something, that's a good way of making your point.

    Which isn't to say they'd be doing the right thing, but the palpable desperation of some people to find some superficial hypocrisy ("HE'S GOT AN IPHONE!!!2!!") to avoid engaging in the substance of the issue is... weak.
    I don't think it is impossible to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. I harbour a nasty suspicion that many of the just stop oil louts are scientifically illiterate, in it for the attention, and often from wealthy backgrounds. Its like celebs flying in from the US to join marches against climate change.
    True. But I also think 'oh they're all just precious rich kids' is often a mental technique people use to mitigate the guilt they might otherwise feel about not caring as much or doing as much about the issue as a big part of them knows they really ought to. Similar to 'they'll just spend it on booze and fags' to justify not giving money to beggars.
    BiB

    What are we to do when the lumpen proletariat doesn't give a flying fuck about the imminent catastrophic climate change and just want to drive their white van to work?
    Well that's a specific of the general tension which often arises between what people want to do individually and what's best for society. One of the important functions of democratic politics and government is to resolve this tension in a way that fuses personal freedom and collective responsibility, and is informed by evidence and facts. Oh yes.
    What we do to get the lumpen proletariat on board is what the grown-ups have been doing for about 20 years i.e. gradually making the non-oil offer better and cheaper than the oil offer.

    I'd say what we don't do is send the worst people in the world in to make their commutes a misery and/or disrupt sporting events they may be watching. I'm no marketer, but I suspect that might be counterproductive. Cutting oil use is a not inconsiderable part of my job and is something I feel quite keen on. And yet when some p*ssed-up nutter barges into a JSO protest with a chant of "We love you oil, we do", I know whose side I am instinctively on. Because JSO are just so bloody dislikeable.
    But are you ever *instinctively* on the side of a disruptive left wing protest movement in the UK?
    Well I'm instinctively on the side of reducing oil use. I cheer electric car uptake (though with caveats that they are not the whole solution); I'm an advocate for public transport/walking and cycling, I keep a cheerful eye on gridwatch and celebrate the days when we are not using much carbon. I want oil use to reduce. If you lined everyone in the country up from the most enthusiastic user of oil and carbon on the right to the least on the left, I reckon I would be about 10% from the left hand end.

    What I'm hostile to is the 'disruptive' element. And I'd be just as hostile to a hypothetical right wing disruptive protest movement (about, I don't know, immigration, or reducing taxes) as a left wing one.
    Disruptive protests are, I reckon, largely counter productive, hardening opinions against the protesters and their cause.
    The example of the suffragettes is often given. But I'd say they put back the achievement of their aim by years. History wrongly lauds them; their non-disruptive counterparts who attempted to win the argument by persuasion rather than by being pains in the arse were much more effective.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835
    edited July 2023

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    But not in the patient. 2 tablets will have a greater surface area and so be absortbed more quickly than one double size one. Similar effects pertain with such things as packaging [edit] in the sense of soluble coating, colour dye used [because of allergies], and so on. With that, and the professional indemnity conditions, no pharmacist will deviate from the prescription without checking, as indeed happened in Stocky pere's case.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2023
    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemist's would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
    Does this pharmacist moonlight as a PCSO?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,215

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemist's would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
    Does this chemist moonlight as a PCSO?
    Jeez don't get me started on PCSOs.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemists would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
    Well he's absolutely right in this case – what a farce. I'm amazed that those are the rules – utterly ludicrous.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Scott_xP said:

    TimS said:

    I think we're starting to see the shape of a post-election defeat Conservative party. It'll do what losing parties always seem to do - lurch further towards the core vote.

    They are lurching towards the UKIP/BNP core vote, and further away from the Conservative and Unionist core vote
    As indeed did Corbyn's faction take Labour towards the SWP core vote.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    But not in the patient. 2 tablets will have a greater surface area and so be absortbed more quickly than one double size one. Similar effects pertain with such things as packaging [edit] in the sense of soluble coating, colour dye used [because of allergies], and so on. With that, and the professional indemnity conditions, no pharmacist will deviate from the prescription without checking, as indeed happened in Stocky pere's case.

    I would venture that those adversely affected by taking 2x 10mg of statins vs 1x 20mg of statins in the course of medical history is statistically zero.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited July 2023

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Something similar happened in a match I was in. We, fielding team, scrubbed the appeal (only the keeper went up, captain told him to knock it off and we all carried on). Batter obligingly, though I don't think deliberately, spooned one up to me at silly mid-on later in the over.

    I think most people would have accepted the ball to be dead at this point.

    ETA: Keeper apologised to the batter, too. A bit less at stake, of course. :wink:
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,149
    edited July 2023
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sue Gray banged to rights by a Cabinet Office inquiry.

    Gove Boris his job back!

    This was spectacularly stupid by her and by Starmer. They have essentially undermined the independence of her enquiry. So stupid.
    I'm afraid however the Tories spin it that is very much a side issue. Because unless you are saying that the Met were in on this new job of Grey's, her inquiry into Case and Johnson was ultimately not the key point.
    As far as Boris is concerned its all history now anyway, since he's history now anyway.

    But as far as Sunak is concerned, with the rather odd anyway fine he received, it does politically make it look a bit like fruit of the poisoned tree.

    And it was completely unnecessary by Starmer. He's beating Sunak anyway, why make such a silly unforced error?
    That fine was nothing to do with Grey's report.

    And it would be stretching it somewhat to say that her impartiality or otherwise undermines any disciplinary offences within the CS itself. Not that any of them appear to have been disciplined in any meaningful way.
    G R A Y

    G – R – A – Y

    FFS.
    I wonder whether the people who misspell names like Sue Grey and Kier Starmer do it through ignorance or think they are being funny at the expense of their rivals? (Hint: if it’s the latter, you’re not - just tedious.)
    In my case, I get Keir Starmer wrong because there's a large construction firm called 'Kier', which I have known since childhood. Familiarity means I think Kier rather than Keir. I do try to catch it though, and I don't think I've done it in a while.
    I before E except after C, the b*gger cannot even spell his name correctly.
    "I before E except after C" is a rather insufficient rule. It seems to me it's been created by foreign scientists, and we need to be feisty enough to rebuff their weird species, and seize back control.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    The whole webpage seems to be an anti-immigration rant.

    Ideally those "new Conservatives" should be amongst the first to lose their seat at the next election if that is all they care about.
    I think we're starting to see the shape of a post-election defeat Conservative party. It'll do what losing parties always seem to do - lurch further towards the core vote. Not only closing off immigration (or at least shouting about doing so) but having big arguments about the ECHR and probably trying to pick lots of fights over trans issues. Like Labour did first with Ed then Corbyn. Arguably they are already at the equivalent of the Ed M stage so will go straight to the Corbyn.

    I would like to think this will be resoundingly pooh-poohed by the electorate but I suppose that depends what kind of state the country's in come the next election but one.
    Cynical as I am about the electorate, I still hope that if the Tories lurch any further to the right - on top of how far they have already lurched to the right - it will not be to their advantage.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemist's would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
    Does this chemist moonlight as a PCSO?
    Jeez don't get me started on PCSOs.
    "guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription"

    Same thing happened to me (but with a different medication, not statins). National shortage of 60mg.

    Refused to make up a 60mg dose from 2 x 30mg.

    Back to GP.

    etc.

    I was frigging furious.




  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,215

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemists would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
    Well he's absolutely right in this case – what a farce. I'm amazed that those are the rules – utterly ludicrous.
    Yes, can we chalk this government initiative as a 'good thing'?:

    https://news.sky.com/story/pharmacies-given-new-power-to-prescribe-medication-under-plans-to-free-up-gp-appointments-12876410
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Scott_xP said:

    kinabalu said:

    I don't know why the Get Brexit Done manifestation of the Tory Party attracted these people.

    Really?

    Everybody else does...
    Yes, well. Just thought I'd toss it out there.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Any odds on some twunks from Just Stop Oil trying to orange centre court? Anyone know what kind of paint they use and if its oil based?

    The hypocrisy you're looking for wouldn't be there in any case. If your point is that oil is ruining everything, and you used an oil-based product to ruin something, that's a good way of making your point.

    Which isn't to say they'd be doing the right thing, but the palpable desperation of some people to find some superficial hypocrisy ("HE'S GOT AN IPHONE!!!2!!") to avoid engaging in the substance of the issue is... weak.
    I don't think it is impossible to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. I harbour a nasty suspicion that many of the just stop oil louts are scientifically illiterate, in it for the attention, and often from wealthy backgrounds. Its like celebs flying in from the US to join marches against climate change.
    True. But I also think 'oh they're all just precious rich kids' is often a mental technique people use to mitigate the guilt they might otherwise feel about not caring as much or doing as much about the issue as a big part of them knows they really ought to. Similar to 'they'll just spend it on booze and fags' to justify not giving money to beggars.
    BiB

    What are we to do when the lumpen proletariat doesn't give a flying fuck about the imminent catastrophic climate change and just want to drive their white van to work?
    Well that's a specific of the general tension which often arises between what people want to do individually and what's best for society. One of the important functions of democratic politics and government is to resolve this tension in a way that fuses personal freedom and collective responsibility, and is informed by evidence and facts. Oh yes.
    What we do to get the lumpen proletariat on board is what the grown-ups have been doing for about 20 years i.e. gradually making the non-oil offer better and cheaper than the oil offer.

    I'd say what we don't do is send the worst people in the world in to make their commutes a misery and/or disrupt sporting events they may be watching. I'm no marketer, but I suspect that might be counterproductive. Cutting oil use is a not inconsiderable part of my job and is something I feel quite keen on. And yet when some p*ssed-up nutter barges into a JSO protest with a chant of "We love you oil, we do", I know whose side I am instinctively on. Because JSO are just so bloody dislikeable.
    But are you ever *instinctively* on the side of a disruptive left wing protest movement in the UK?
    Well I'm instinctively on the side of reducing oil use. I cheer electric car uptake (though with caveats that they are not the whole solution); I'm an advocate for public transport/walking and cycling, I keep a cheerful eye on gridwatch and celebrate the days when we are not using much carbon. I want oil use to reduce. If you lined everyone in the country up from the most enthusiastic user of oil and carbon on the right to the least on the left, I reckon I would be about 10% from the left hand end.

    What I'm hostile to is the 'disruptive' element. And I'd be just as hostile to a hypothetical right wing disruptive protest movement (about, I don't know, immigration, or reducing taxes) as a left wing one.
    Disruptive protests are, I reckon, largely counter productive, hardening opinions against the protesters and their cause.
    The example of the suffragettes is often given. But I'd say they put back the achievement of their aim by years. History wrongly lauds them; their non-disruptive counterparts who attempted to win the argument by persuasion rather than by being pains in the arse were much more effective.
    I am also not a fan of these disruptive protests, being a non-confrontational live and let live kind of guy, but I believe that the evidence suggests they are broadly effective, because while they piss people off they get the issue in the news and communicate a sense of urgency about it. Having said this, I have not read and assessed this evidence myself.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    The whole webpage seems to be an anti-immigration rant.

    Ideally those "new Conservatives" should be amongst the first to lose their seat at the next election if that is all they care about.
    I think we're starting to see the shape of a post-election defeat Conservative party. It'll do what losing parties always seem to do - lurch further towards the core vote. Not only closing off immigration (or at least shouting about doing so) but having big arguments about the ECHR and probably trying to pick lots of fights over trans issues. Like Labour did first with Ed then Corbyn. Arguably they are already at the equivalent of the Ed M stage so will go straight to the Corbyn.

    I would like to think this will be resoundingly pooh-poohed by the electorate but I suppose that depends what kind of state the country's in come the next election but one.
    New Conservative is a euphemism for "about to lose seat Conservative"??
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,429

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    Trouble is that, in spite of what one see as common sense, these situations create problems. 2x10mgm tablets undoubtedly cost more than 1x20mgm, and, particularly in times when there are local but not general shortages of medicines, the NHS Pricing Authority won’t pay for the more expensive replacement. Once upon a time pharmacies could have their endorsements up that effect accepted; now, AIUI, they are not.
    Same applies to Nurofen for ibuprofen; the brand is a lot more expensive than the generic and in the case described the pharmacy will lose money.
    And the margins on NHS dispensing are extremely tight.
    Long years ago I spent hours arguing with the ‘authorities’ about such cases and rarely won.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    .
    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    "New Conservatives; same old tw@ts."
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
    A similar thing happened to Ian Bell in a massive Test at Trent Bridge between us and India in 2011 – I remember it clearly.

    In that case, Dhoni, to his eternal credit, withdrew the appeal. That is sportsmanship – play hard, but don't gain an unfair advantage on a technicality.

    https://wisden.com/series-stories/south-africa-v-india/watch-the-controversial-overturned-ian-bell-run-out-thats-reminiscent-of-van-der-dussens-dismissal-against-india
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    TimS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    The whole webpage seems to be an anti-immigration rant.

    Ideally those "new Conservatives" should be amongst the first to lose their seat at the next election if that is all they care about.
    I think we're starting to see the shape of a post-election defeat Conservative party. It'll do what losing parties always seem to do - lurch further towards the core vote. Not only closing off immigration (or at least shouting about doing so) but having big arguments about the ECHR and probably trying to pick lots of fights over trans issues. Like Labour did first with Ed then Corbyn. Arguably they are already at the equivalent of the Ed M stage so will go straight to the Corbyn.

    I would like to think this will be resoundingly pooh-poohed by the electorate but I suppose that depends what kind of state the country's in come the next election but one.
    New Conservative is a euphemism for "about to lose seat Conservative"??
    Or just the "we agree the last few versions of the Conservative party have been crap but please vote for us anyway?" brigade.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,522
    edited July 2023
    Scott_xP said:

    It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.

    But as I understand it the whole debate is about whether the delivery was in fact "complete"
    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease. The umpires on the field had clearly thought the over was complete as they were beginning to move to their new positions. It was only the Third Umpire who decided otherwise on appeal.

    It was atrocious behaviour from the Aussies and a poor call from the Third Umpire.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited July 2023
    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
    You know nothing about cricket. It's nothing that Bairstow himself hasn't tried previously. Instinctive reaction by the wicket keeper while the phase, umpire not said "over", Bairstow had a moment and paid for it.

    Plus it's just deflection because England have been dreadful this series.

    See? That's how to know nothing about cricket and still be right.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemist's would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
    Does this chemist moonlight as a PCSO?
    Jeez don't get me started on PCSOs.
    "guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription"

    Same thing happened to me (but with a different medication, not statins). National shortage of 60mg.

    Refused to make up a 60mg dose from 2 x 30mg.

    Back to GP.

    etc.

    I was frigging furious.




    Which is why now I have moved I haven't even bothered registering with a gp. They are useless so if I fall ill I will goto A&E or self diagnose and get what I need off a slightly less legal route
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,215

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    But not in the patient. 2 tablets will have a greater surface area and so be absortbed more quickly than one double size one. Similar effects pertain with such things as packaging [edit] in the sense of soluble coating, colour dye used [because of allergies], and so on. With that, and the professional indemnity conditions, no pharmacist will deviate from the prescription without checking, as indeed happened in Stocky pere's case.

    I would venture that those adversely affected by taking 2x 10mg of statins vs 1x 20mg of statins in the course of medical history is statistically zero.
    Maybe more like absolutely zero - but I take Carnyx's point.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    Well apparently you need to now directly ask both the umpire and keeper!

    In practice it's not done as you imply as cricketers effectively have a gentlemen's agreement not to stump the batsman when the ball has gone through and he has scratched his crease.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
    You know nothing about cricket. It's nothing that Bairstow himself hasn't tried previously. Instinctive reaction by the wicket keeper while the phase, umpire not said "over", Bairstow had a moment and paid for it.

    Plus it's just deflection because England have been dreadful this series.

    See? That's how to know nothing about cricket and still be right.
    Except I was actually THERE

    lol
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    The ball is dead when both sides have stopped any action. Not when one side has stopped and assumes the other has stopped.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    edited July 2023

    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease.

    If the batsman was in his crease when the ball was thrown by the keeper, if he had stood still he would not have been out.

    He moved and is out.

    Whose fault is that?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
    You know nothing about cricket. It's nothing that Bairstow himself hasn't tried previously. Instinctive reaction by the wicket keeper while the phase, umpire not said "over", Bairstow had a moment and paid for it.

    Plus it's just deflection because England have been dreadful this series.

    See? That's how to know nothing about cricket and still be right.
    I really don't think England have been dreadful this series. There have been some poor decisions by England batsmen and some impenetrative patches in the field - but overall I'd give England 6 and a half out of ten so far. Eighteen months ago England were dreadful; now they are patchy and occasionally brilliant. They've narrowly lost both games. That isn't dreadful.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
    You know nothing about cricket. It's nothing that Bairstow himself hasn't tried previously. Instinctive reaction by the wicket keeper while the phase, umpire not said "over", Bairstow had a moment and paid for it.

    Plus it's just deflection because England have been dreadful this series.

    See? That's how to know nothing about cricket and still be right.
    Except I was actually THERE

    lol
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvjk47UORFs
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Selebian said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Something similar happened in a match I was in. We, fielding team, scrubbed the appeal (only the keeper went up, captain told him to knock it off and we all carried on). Batter obligingly, though I don't think deliberately, spooned one up to me at silly mid-on later in the over.

    I think most people would have accepted the ball to be dead at this point.

    ETA: Keeper apologised to the batter, too. A bit less at stake, of course. :wink:
    Sure, but nevertheless the fielding skipper behaved in an honourable fashion (and indeed in the 99% of captains would behave in similar circumstances).

    It's interesting that even the Aussie press are divided on it – many journos and former players there are uncomfortable by their gaining an advantage via pedantry rather than competition.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
    You know nothing about cricket. It's nothing that Bairstow himself hasn't tried previously. Instinctive reaction by the wicket keeper while the phase, umpire not said "over", Bairstow had a moment and paid for it.

    Plus it's just deflection because England have been dreadful this series.

    See? That's how to know nothing about cricket and still be right.
    Except I was actually THERE

    lol
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvjk47UORFs
    Except, you know, I was actually THERE
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    I fully expect the Aussies to bowl underarm and use Mankads in the remaining three tests.

    No wonder they play in yellow.

    I spoke with a friend who was at Lords, in the MCC at the time (he claims he was asleep at the time of the subsequent incident but he has been known to wear a cream linen jacket and isn't in the first flush of youth so I'll wait to see the charge sheet). He explained what was going on.

    Something about transference by England fans for their awful performance in throwing away now two tests and with no one, until that happened, to blame but the England team.
    Well, seeing as I was at Lords, yesterday, I can safely call this a load of shite

    The crowd was good natured and happy til the Bairstow incident. Most had come with a ton of booze and fine cheese, expecting a couple of hours of fun in the sun, and maybe a decent knock by Stokes to remember, and then a defeat. It was absolutely expected, no one was booing anything, we'd lost to a good Aussie side, we'd made mistakes, oh well

    That single incident transformed the mood of the crowd in a way I have never personally witnessed at a sports ground. It was spectacular. The boos and heckles started immediately, they were deafening, and they carried on for the next three and a half hours (lunch excepted), they continued after the game was OVER

    The anger was real. You can argue it was overdone, but it was real, and it wasn't transference, it was specifically aimed at what was perceived as blatant and ugly cheating
    Pleasing, though, to learn the English still break from relentlessly sledging and booing in order to have lunch!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    Ben Stokes #1 fan has entered the chat......
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Jeez , embarrassing scenes at Centre Court where allegedly the roof is stopping the court from drying out because of the increased humidity .
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemists would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
    Well he's absolutely right in this case – what a farce. I'm amazed that those are the rules – utterly ludicrous.
    Yes, can we chalk this government initiative as a 'good thing'?:

    https://news.sky.com/story/pharmacies-given-new-power-to-prescribe-medication-under-plans-to-free-up-gp-appointments-12876410
    We can.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,215
    edited July 2023

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    Trouble is that, in spite of what one see as common sense, these situations create problems. 2x10mgm tablets undoubtedly cost more than 1x20mgm, and, particularly in times when there are local but not general shortages of medicines, the NHS Pricing Authority won’t pay for the more expensive replacement. Once upon a time pharmacies could have their endorsements up that effect accepted; now, AIUI, they are not.
    Same applies to Nurofen for ibuprofen; the brand is a lot more expensive than the generic and in the case described the pharmacy will lose money.
    And the margins on NHS dispensing are extremely tight.
    Long years ago I spent hours arguing with the ‘authorities’ about such cases and rarely won.
    What of the other way round? If the prescription were for 2 x 10mg tablets and they had run out I wonder whether the pharmacy would provide the cheaper 1 x 20mg and pocket the difference?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    nico679 said:

    Jeez , embarrassing scenes at Centre Court where allegedly the roof is stopping the court from drying out because of the increased humidity .

    Not my job mate.....i would have to deal with it....
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,034
    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemists would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
    Sums up so much that is wrong with the NHS

    My son phoned for an urgent prescription for one of his children and the surgery said they would contact Asda with the prescription and to go there asap

    He arrived at Asda as instructed and was told they had not received the 'fax'

    He went back later, and Asda said they were out of the antibiotic so my son, practical as ever, asked to be given the prescription so he could go to another chemist

    Asda refused point blank and said the 'fax' was not transferable

    He went to the out of hours doctor who redirected the request to another chemist who had the antibiotic

    This was a child's health the nonsense bureaucracy of the Wales NHS put at risk and was totally unacceptable
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cheap attack from Diane Abbott

    '@HackneyAbbott

    1h
    Our multi-millionaire prime minister Rishi Sunak donates just one £10 bottle of wine to his local school'. After all he signed it too
    https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1675761345856262144?s=20

    Almost as cheap as the bottle of wine Sunak donated.
    At least it wasn’t Buckfast!

    An American wine connoisseur made the mistake of reviewing buckfast… Here’s their tasting notes:

    Buckfast Tonic Wine (No Vintage)

    Screw cap, took it off about 30 minutes before to bring in some air. Apparently made by monks in England. Decided to try while cooking dinner. Poured into a glass, first glance has a very inky almost brownish color that you see in older wines. Very syrupy, liquid clings to the side of the glass when swirled. Almost 15% ABV.

    Stuck my nose in and was hit with something I’ve never experienced before. Barnyardy funk (in a bad way) almost like a dead animal in a bird’s nest. A mix of flat Coca Cola and caramel with a whiff of gun metal.

    On the palate, overwhelming sweetness and sugar. Cherry Cola mixed with Benadryl. Unlike anything I’ve tasted. I’m not sure what this liquid is but it is not wine, I’m actually not sure what it is but it tastes like something a doctor would prescribe. A chemical concoction of the highest degree. Can only compare it to a Four Loko.

    Managed to make it through a couple small glasses but not much more. Has absolutely ruined the evening drinking-wise for me as I tried to drink a nice Bordeaux after but the iron-like metallic sweet aftertaste I just couldn’t get out of my mouth even after a few glasses of water. I don’t drink a lot of coffee regularly so I also have mild heart palpitations from the caffeine after just drinking a bit of this and feel a slight migraine.

    An ungodly concoction made by seemingly godly men. I believe the Vatican needs to send an exorcist over to Buckfast Abbey as the devil’s works are cleary present there. After tasting this “wine,” the way I feel can only be described as akin to being under a bridge on one’s knees orally pleasing a vagrant while simultaneously drinking liquified meth through a dirty rag.

    I’ve drank a lot of wines in my life and will never forget this one.
    That’s brilliant! Did no-one tell him that it was almost exclusively consumed by teenegers in parks in Scotland, and that anyone old enough to go to the pub would rather do that?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    See here:

    https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/dead-ball

    Much has been made of the fact that the umpires didn't call over, but it seems that you call over only when the ball is dead. Calling over doesn't make it dead in itself.

    20.3 Call of Over or Time

    Neither the call of Over (see Law 17.4), nor the call of Time (see Law 12.2) is to be made until the ball is dead, either under 20.1 or under 20.4.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
    You know nothing about cricket. It's nothing that Bairstow himself hasn't tried previously. Instinctive reaction by the wicket keeper while the phase, umpire not said "over", Bairstow had a moment and paid for it.

    Plus it's just deflection because England have been dreadful this series.

    See? That's how to know nothing about cricket and still be right.
    I really don't think England have been dreadful this series. There have been some poor decisions by England batsmen and some impenetrative patches in the field - but overall I'd give England 6 and a half out of ten so far. Eighteen months ago England were dreadful; now they are patchy and occasionally brilliant. They've narrowly lost both games. That isn't dreadful.
    Yes, dreadful is completely ridiculous (and proves @TOPPING is, as ever, bloviating from a position of ignorance)

    They are playing the best Test side in the world, who just won the world Test championship

    England have some really fine players but they are now ageing, Anderson (especially), Broad, Root, even Stokes himself (sadly)

    They have been incredible for a year and more, the most exciting team on the planet, potentially saving Test cricket with Bazball, now they may have reached the limit, against a very good Aussie side (and with those ageing players). And yet still they have come close to winning both Tests

    "Dreadful" is when you lose every Test by an innings to clearly inferior opposition
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,941

    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/

    The whole webpage seems to be an anti-immigration rant.

    Ideally those "new Conservatives" should be amongst the first to lose their seat at the next election if that is all they care about.
    I still think the very simple solution to the immigration "problem" is to set an annual cap based on housebuilding, school places, hospital beds. If there are enough new beds, new schools, new hospitals to fit 700k new people a year, then that's how many we let in.

    While it sounds bonkers at first, I suspect it's the only way we'll ever have a sensible debate about planning, capacity and so on, and move the debate away from "furriners wot speak funny". The problem is there will be an audience for people who bang this particular drum so long as people feel like they are an in ever worsening competition for housing and public services.

    I also suspect that rather than see immigration halve under such a scheme, the government would very quickly find a way to make housebuilding double...
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,522
    Scott_xP said:

    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease.

    If the batsman was in his crease when the ball was thrown by the keeper, if he had stood still he would not have been out.

    He moved and is out.

    Whose fault is that?
    The one not abiding by the spirit of the game. The cheating Aussie.

    I did like Broad's comment to Carey.

    “That’s all you’re ever going to be remembered for, that."

    Hopefully he is right.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Scott_xP said:

    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease.

    If the batsman was in his crease when the ball was thrown by the keeper, if he had stood still he would not have been out.

    He moved and is out.

    Whose fault is that?
    No one is arguing that. As Stokes himself said "yes he was out" - technically Australia were allowed to do that, but the thing is - you just don't do that, as Stokes also said. It's not sporting. Sport relies on these unspoken rules as much as the real ones
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    The ball is dead when both sides have stopped any action. Not when one side has stopped and assumes the other has stopped.
    It's uncommon, but it happens at all levels of the game, and tends to create ill feeling whenever it does.

    My friend's 11 year old son was dismissed in this way a couple of weeks back. The umpire was apologetic, but had to give it. It did not go down well. Words were had, and grumblings of alternative fixtures being sought next year.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    The Orkney news is being carried by worldwide news outlets, which shows just how much tripe is pumped out by the news media.

    It’s silly season stuff.

    On one level it is on another level I can see why they are doing it - they've never really regatded themselves as Scottish, hate the lack of money the Scottish Government gives them and need a whole new set of ferries in a hurry because the old ones are dying
    Eh? Serco and a couple of private family firms operate the ferries to Orkney, and the council itself operates the inter-island services.
    That is your PB Scotch experts for you , never miss a chance to talk bollox about things they know nothing about.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Miklosvar said:

    ydoethur said:

    Miklosvar said:

    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Since we're on Eurostats.



    https://twitter.com/simongerman600/status/1675552417503485952?s=20

    Denmark is a bit of shocker, and as for Belarus, oy vey. Must be having to cope with the neighbours.

    Didn't expect France to be significantly higher than the UK.
    The Czech Republic is surprisingly low, given that they drink the most beer per capita in the world.
    I wanted you to be wrong so I could post "you need to Czechia facts"

    Sadly, you seem to be exactly right.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_beer_consumption_per_capita
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita

    E.g. Bulgaria drinks like a fish (other sources confirm) but the map says nobody dies of it. Rubbish map.
    Possibly they have a very strict definition of 'alcohol related deaths?' E.g. only if they were drowned in a vat, or something?

    A bit like Covid statistics.
    Quite. To repeat myself it's died OF drink vs died WITH drink.
    If you cark it with a greasy tumbler of Bell's* in your cold dead hand, it's probably fair to assume you're deid of and with drink.

    *I'd rather be dead than drink Bell's, and not just because of the UJ.
    If it was that or 10 bottles of Buckie I would take the Bells
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    Well apparently you need to now directly ask both the umpire and keeper!

    In practice it's not done as you imply as cricketers effectively have a gentlemen's agreement not to stump the batsman when the ball has gone through and he has scratched his crease.
    Yes, dodgy as hell, no question. Dirty cheating Aussies. Too many moustaches and no class.

    But it's just this point various pundits have been making that the umpire hadn't called 'over'. So technically the ball wasn't dead. In which case (I'm wondering) what if it hadn't been the last ball of the over? Is there an equivalent there, eg the umpire calling 'ball'?

    If not, you have a different 'special' scenario for the last ball. Which sounds wrong to me. But it also sounds wrong to me that the umpire calls 'ball' (because I don't think that happens).

    Bee in my bonnet. Have to deal with it somehow.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemists would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
    Sums up so much that is wrong with the NHS

    My son phoned for an urgent prescription for one of his children and the surgery said they would contact Asda with the prescription and to go there asap

    He arrived at Asda as instructed and was told they had not received the 'fax'

    He went back later, and Asda said they were out of the antibiotic so my son, practical as ever, asked to be given the prescription so he could go to another chemist

    Asda refused point blank and said the 'fax' was not transferable

    He went to the out of hours doctor who redirected the request to another chemist who had the antibiotic

    This was a child's health the nonsense bureaucracy of the Wales NHS put at risk and was totally unacceptable

    Stocky said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    The brand of medicine can actually be quite significant - I believe for such things as insulin for diabetics. So I hesitate to call it madness.

    Bear in mind that if the pharmacist deviates from the prescription in any way he loses if there is anything going wrong. Insurers and lawyers don't give a shit about being reasonable if they can see a letout.
    Nurofen is chemically identical to bog standard Boot's own brand ibuprofen, just costs vastly more.

    In the case @Stocky cites, he has refused to prescribe 2x 10mg in place of 1x 20mg of statins – again, chemically identical.
    When my father-in-law protested that it was a Saturday and that he was almost out of medication and was away on holiday for a week from Monday the pharmacist told him to ring 111 and they would give an immediate prescription.

    He rang 111 and the person he spoke to (eventually) said that she couldn't do this and he would need to speak to a doctor and she would get one to call him in 6 hours. He pointed out that 6 hours meant that the chemists would be closed by then. She relented and said she'd go for 2 hours.

    Fair dos a doctor called him after 2 hours but would only give a prescription for 7 days. So now he has to go to GP immediately on return from holiday or he'll run out again.

    He's 80 years old and has got in a pickle about this and is understandable (IMO) ranting about "beaurocracy gone mad".
    Sums up so much that is wrong with the NHS

    My son phoned for an urgent prescription for one of his children and the surgery said they would contact Asda with the prescription and to go there asap

    He arrived at Asda as instructed and was told they had not received the 'fax'

    He went back later, and Asda said they were out of the antibiotic so my son, practical as ever, asked to be given the prescription so he could go to another chemist

    Asda refused point blank and said the 'fax' was not transferable

    He went to the out of hours doctor who redirected the request to another chemist who had the antibiotic

    This was a child's health the nonsense bureaucracy of the Wales NHS put at risk and was totally unacceptable
    Similar with us over Christmas. Daughter prescribed antibiotics on 23 December. Only one of the two bottles available at pharmacy, rest to be collected on 27th at the same pharmacy (I am told, by the person serving). Arrive 27th, pharmacy closed (Boxing Day substitute bank holiday). Find the only open pharmacy locally, queue for ages, prescription not transferable.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    Scott_xP said:

    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease.

    If the batsman was in his crease when the ball was thrown by the keeper, if he had stood still he would not have been out.

    He moved and is out.

    Whose fault is that?
    The one not abiding by the spirit of the game. The cheating Aussie.

    I did like Broad's comment to Carey.

    “That’s all you’re ever going to be remembered for, that."

    Hopefully he is right.
    Tbf Broad is a man who knows about these things
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
    You know nothing about cricket. It's nothing that Bairstow himself hasn't tried previously. Instinctive reaction by the wicket keeper while the phase, umpire not said "over", Bairstow had a moment and paid for it.

    Plus it's just deflection because England have been dreadful this series.

    See? That's how to know nothing about cricket and still be right.
    I really don't think England have been dreadful this series. There have been some poor decisions by England batsmen and some impenetrative patches in the field - but overall I'd give England 6 and a half out of ten so far. Eighteen months ago England were dreadful; now they are patchy and occasionally brilliant. They've narrowly lost both games. That isn't dreadful.
    Far from dreadful. And the series is NOT 'gone'. I'm hearing far too much of that nonsense.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/


    Introducing, the anti-growth coalition!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    Well apparently you need to now directly ask both the umpire and keeper!

    In practice it's not done as you imply as cricketers effectively have a gentlemen's agreement not to stump the batsman when the ball has gone through and he has scratched his crease.
    Yes, dodgy as hell, no question. Dirty cheating Aussies. Too many moustaches and no class.

    But it's just this point various pundits have been making that the umpire hadn't called 'over'. So technically the ball wasn't dead. In which case (I'm wondering) what if it hadn't been the last ball of the over? Is there an equivalent there, eg the umpire calling 'ball'?

    If not, you have a different 'special' scenario for the last ball. Which sounds wrong to me. But it also sounds wrong to me that the umpire calls 'ball' (because I don't think that happens).

    Bee in my bonnet. Have to deal with it somehow.
    Its not difficult. The ball is dead when both sides have stopped any action. From the first ball of the day to the last, and at any point of each over.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    Well apparently you need to now directly ask both the umpire and keeper!

    In practice it's not done as you imply as cricketers effectively have a gentlemen's agreement not to stump the batsman when the ball has gone through and he has scratched his crease.
    Yes, dodgy as hell, no question. Dirty cheating Aussies. Too many moustaches and no class.

    But it's just this point various pundits have been making that the umpire hadn't called 'over'. So technically the ball wasn't dead. In which case (I'm wondering) what if it hadn't been the last ball of the over? Is there an equivalent there, eg the umpire calling 'ball'?

    If not, you have a different 'special' scenario for the last ball. Which sounds wrong to me. But it also sounds wrong to me that the umpire calls 'ball' (because I don't think that happens).

    Bee in my bonnet. Have to deal with it somehow.
    Having looked at the rules, I think it's clear that the rules don't adequately deal with the actuality, kind of for the reasons you discuss above. Which is why you have conventions of this sort.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    The Orkney news is being carried by worldwide news outlets, which shows just how much tripe is pumped out by the news media.

    It’s silly season stuff.

    On one level it silly season, but on another level I can see why they are doing it - they've never really regarded themselves as Scottish, hate the lack of money the Scottish Government gives them and need a whole new set of ferries in a hurry because the old ones are dying
    A deracinated Orcadian tweets.




    He lives in Glasgow and writes for the Herald - and given thaty he hasn't provided a source for his quote I'll treat it with the respect it deserves.

    For reference my family traces it's roots to Orkney / Shetland and still has members there - none of whom can stand the SNP..
    You do know the Herald is a notably Unionist newspaper these days? And Mr Leask's family also traces etc.

    Those look like data from the census btw.
    Still why let the truth interfere with some unionist bollox
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    The ball is dead when both sides have stopped any action. Not when one side has stopped and assumes the other has stopped.
    Yep. But is there an equivalent 'event' to the umpire calling 'over' when it isn't the last ball of the over, do you know?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease.

    If the batsman was in his crease when the ball was thrown by the keeper, if he had stood still he would not have been out.

    He moved and is out.

    Whose fault is that?
    No one is arguing that. As Stokes himself said "yes he was out" - technically Australia were allowed to do that, but the thing is - you just don't do that, as Stokes also said. It's not sporting. Sport relies on these unspoken rules as much as the real ones
    This, I think, is the key point – and one which non-cricket fans and part-time cricket fans don't seem to grasp.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease.

    If the batsman was in his crease when the ball was thrown by the keeper, if he had stood still he would not have been out.

    He moved and is out.

    Whose fault is that?
    No one is arguing that. As Stokes himself said "yes he was out" - technically Australia were allowed to do that, but the thing is - you just don't do that, as Stokes also said. It's not sporting. Sport relies on these unspoken rules as much as the real ones
    This controversy - with the Aussies branded cheats and the English whinging about it - seems precision-engineered to reinforce the negative stereotypes each country holds about the other.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    New video from Andrew Bridgen MP.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuUxpS9kkGw

    "An Update From Andrew Bridgen on his Legal Case Against Matt Hancock"
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
    You know nothing about cricket. It's nothing that Bairstow himself hasn't tried previously. Instinctive reaction by the wicket keeper while the phase, umpire not said "over", Bairstow had a moment and paid for it.

    Plus it's just deflection because England have been dreadful this series.

    See? That's how to know nothing about cricket and still be right.
    I really don't think England have been dreadful this series. There have been some poor decisions by England batsmen and some impenetrative patches in the field - but overall I'd give England 6 and a half out of ten so far. Eighteen months ago England were dreadful; now they are patchy and occasionally brilliant. They've narrowly lost both games. That isn't dreadful.
    Yes, dreadful is completely ridiculous (and proves @TOPPING is, as ever, bloviating from a position of ignorance)

    They are playing the best Test side in the world, who just won the world Test championship

    England have some really fine players but they are now ageing, Anderson (especially), Broad, Root, even Stokes himself (sadly)

    They have been incredible for a year and more, the most exciting team on the planet, potentially saving Test cricket with Bazball, now they may have reached the limit, against a very good Aussie side (and with those ageing players). And yet still they have come close to winning both Tests

    "Dreadful" is when you lose every Test by an innings to clearly inferior opposition
    Bad losers and just cannot accept that your lot were second best and thrashed once again by a better team , one that knows and understands the rules as well.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    The ball is dead when both sides have stopped any action. Not when one side has stopped and assumes the other has stopped.
    Yep. But is there an equivalent 'event' to the umpire calling 'over' when it isn't the last ball of the over, do you know?
    No there is not, but the ball will be dead at the same point, just no words are used to mark that point.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited July 2023
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    The Orkney news is being carried by worldwide news outlets, which shows just how much tripe is pumped out by the news media.

    It’s silly season stuff.

    On one level it is on another level I can see why they are doing it - they've never really regatded themselves as Scottish, hate the lack of money the Scottish Government gives them and need a whole new set of ferries in a hurry because the old ones are dying
    Eh? Serco and a couple of private family firms operate the ferries to Orkney, and the council itself operates the inter-island services.
    That is your PB Scotch experts for you , never miss a chance to talk bollox about things they know nothing about.
    Um

    https://www.wionews.com/world/uks-orkney-islands-want-to-join-norway-over-financial-neglect-611446

    A row over funding for new ferries between the islands and Scotland has brought Orkney's situation to a head.

    So who is talking bollox.....

    I'm surprised people round here forget that I check facts before posting things...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    edited July 2023
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    The ball is dead when both sides have stopped any action. Not when one side has stopped and assumes the other has stopped.
    It's uncommon, but it happens at all levels of the game, and tends to create ill feeling whenever it does.

    My friend's 11 year old son was dismissed in this way a couple of weeks back. The umpire was apologetic, but had to give it. It did not go down well. Words were had, and grumblings of alternative fixtures being sought next year.
    The umpire has no choice but to give it if the fielding side uphold their appeal.

    However, a wise umpire would encourage the fielding skipper to withdraw his appeal – whether at schoolboy level or otherwise.

    Did he still uphold it, the decision would be given as out, but the fielding captain would rightly be tarnished as a poor sportsman.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:

    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease.

    If the batsman was in his crease when the ball was thrown by the keeper, if he had stood still he would not have been out.

    He moved and is out.

    Whose fault is that?
    The one not abiding by the spirit of the game. The cheating Aussie.

    I did like Broad's comment to Carey.

    “That’s all you’re ever going to be remembered for, that."

    Hopefully he is right.
    Tbf Broad is a man who knows about these things
    False equivalence. Batsmen don't walk. Maybe they should, but by and large they don't.

    I do remember Graeme Thorpe walking on an LBW once. He was done by a Courtney Walsh slower ball (the second time in the series) and didn't bother to wait for the umpire to give him out.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease.

    If the batsman was in his crease when the ball was thrown by the keeper, if he had stood still he would not have been out.

    He moved and is out.

    Whose fault is that?
    No one is arguing that. As Stokes himself said "yes he was out" - technically Australia were allowed to do that, but the thing is - you just don't do that, as Stokes also said. It's not sporting. Sport relies on these unspoken rules as much as the real ones
    Stuart Broad didn't walk when he edged to slip. Same type of thing really.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Absolutely right.

    I've been amazed to hear the amount of people who are willing to defend it. I thought it was a disgraceful, and ridiculous, at the time and have been seething about it. Bairstow had not gained any advantage, was not seeking one, and indeed had scratched his crease. It makes a mockery of the concept of sport – as no competition was taking place at that point.

    Were this to happen in a schoolboy match, the fielding captain would be asked by the umpire to withdraw his appeal, and his teacher would tell him to do so.
    Quite so. It was arguably lawful, it was COMPLETELY unsporting, it also adds to the venom and drama of this Ashes series, which is great

    The equivalent in a football match would be scoring a goal when the keeper has obviously just been badly injured, everyone can see it but he hasn't called for help yet, nor has the referee stopped the game

    You'd probably be allowed - in the rules - to score the goal, but you'd be "cheating" in terms of the game and you'd get a right old barracking for the next six months
    You know nothing about cricket. It's nothing that Bairstow himself hasn't tried previously. Instinctive reaction by the wicket keeper while the phase, umpire not said "over", Bairstow had a moment and paid for it.

    Plus it's just deflection because England have been dreadful this series.

    See? That's how to know nothing about cricket and still be right.
    I really don't think England have been dreadful this series. There have been some poor decisions by England batsmen and some impenetrative patches in the field - but overall I'd give England 6 and a half out of ten so far. Eighteen months ago England were dreadful; now they are patchy and occasionally brilliant. They've narrowly lost both games. That isn't dreadful.
    Far from dreadful. And the series is NOT 'gone'. I'm hearing far too much of that nonsense.
    I'd make England favourites for Headingley. Australia will miss the competent spin and top-of-tail batting of Nathan Lyon.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    edited July 2023

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    The ball is dead when both sides have stopped any action. Not when one side has stopped and assumes the other has stopped.
    Yep. But is there an equivalent 'event' to the umpire calling 'over' when it isn't the last ball of the over, do you know?
    No there is not, but the ball will be dead at the same point, just no words are used to mark that point.
    Carey took the ball and released whilst Bairstow was still in his crease. I think this dismissal is less controversial than Foakes' stumping of Balbirnie tbh.
    If Carey had waited till Bairstow had wandered out of his crease that'd be against the spirit I think - but he didn't.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Stocky said:

    My reactionary father-in-law was in a lather yesterday but for once he seems to have a point.

    He's been on 20mg statins for over ten years and went to collect his repeat prescription at the usual chemist to be told that there is a national shortage of 20mg statin tablets. The chemist said they had tried to source in multiple places but none can be found. The answer, he said, is simple enough - have two 10mg tablets instead, there are plenty of those available.

    But - guess what - the chemist refused to dispense as the repeat prescription states 20mg tablet rather than 2x 10mg tablets and sent father-in-law back to his GP for a new prescription (this was Saturday and surgery was closed and he had almost run out of tablets).

    Good use of GP time there then.

    This is a strong candidate for the most bonkers policy I have ever read. And I can only assume your anecdote is true.

    Utter, unmitigated madness of the highest order.

    Does this chap also refuse to prescribe Nurofen when the prescription calls for ibuprofen?
    Its not as bonkers as you make out. For one thing 2 x 10 mg may have different effects on the patient (different dissolution rates, smaller tablets etc). Prescription meds are heavily regulated in the UK and rightly so. I'd hope that no-one is getting ibuprofen on prescription, but presumably some are (on benefits, so no prescription charge) as it is way cheaper to buy generic.

    What should happen (and will soon) is that the pharmacist will be able to change the prescription. Indeed if this goes back to a GP surgery its entirely possible that it will be changed by an inhouse prescribing pharmacist (they are becoming more common),
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    Well apparently you need to now directly ask both the umpire and keeper!

    In practice it's not done as you imply as cricketers effectively have a gentlemen's agreement not to stump the batsman when the ball has gone through and he has scratched his crease.
    Yes, dodgy as hell, no question. Dirty cheating Aussies. Too many moustaches and no class.

    But it's just this point various pundits have been making that the umpire hadn't called 'over'. So technically the ball wasn't dead. In which case (I'm wondering) what if it hadn't been the last ball of the over? Is there an equivalent there, eg the umpire calling 'ball'?

    If not, you have a different 'special' scenario for the last ball. Which sounds wrong to me. But it also sounds wrong to me that the umpire calls 'ball' (because I don't think that happens).

    Bee in my bonnet. Have to deal with it somehow.
    It's a fair question!

    In my experience, many umpires up and down the land often don't even call over! They just give the bowler his cap back and everyone shuffles along their merry way.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease.

    If the batsman was in his crease when the ball was thrown by the keeper, if he had stood still he would not have been out.

    He moved and is out.

    Whose fault is that?
    No one is arguing that. As Stokes himself said "yes he was out" - technically Australia were allowed to do that, but the thing is - you just don't do that, as Stokes also said. It's not sporting. Sport relies on these unspoken rules as much as the real ones
    This, I think, is the key point – and one which non-cricket fans and part-time cricket fans don't seem to grasp.


    The irony, of course, is that the outrageous cheating fired up Stokes. It was only after Bairstowgate that he went mad and hit seven trillion sixes. And the incensed crowd rattled the previously-composed Aussies to the extent they were dropping easy catches and making really bad fielding decisions

    We probably would have a lost by a considerably LARGER margin without Ye Great Australyan Cheatynge

  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    No shot had been played. The ball was in the keeper's hands and at the time the batsman was inside his crease.

    If the batsman was in his crease when the ball was thrown by the keeper, if he had stood still he would not have been out.

    He moved and is out.

    Whose fault is that?
    No one is arguing that. As Stokes himself said "yes he was out" - technically Australia were allowed to do that, but the thing is - you just don't do that, as Stokes also said. It's not sporting. Sport relies on these unspoken rules as much as the real ones
    This, I think, is the key point – and one which non-cricket fans and part-time cricket fans don't seem to grasp.


    The irony, of course, is that the outrageous cheating fired up Stokes. It was only after Bairstowgate that he went mad and hit seven trillion sixes. And the incensed crowd rattled the previously-composed Aussies to the extent they were dropping easy catches and making really bad fielding decisions

    We probably would have a lost by a considerably LARGER margin without Ye Great Australyan Cheatynge

    I thought that too, to be honest.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    AlistairM said:

    BREAKING: Partygate investigator Sue Gray broke civil service rules “as a result of the undeclared contact” between her and the Labour Party, according to a Whitehall investigation.
    https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1675807612070252545

    Boy, Simon Case really is as nasty and vindictive as he's useless isn't he?
    I understand "prima facie" breach of the Civil Service code to mean, they really, really want it to be the case, but are annoyed they have zero evidence, so will pretend she is in breach anyway.

    On the cricket thing. I looked at the clip, and possibly for the first time in my life studied cricket seriously. It was clear Bairstow wasn't paying attention. On the presumption the rule is there for a purpose, my inexpert take, rookie error and Bairstow should be kicking himself, and that's it.
    The rule is there to penalise batters who go out of their crease to whack the ball. It is not designed to catch those who stay inside the crease to play (or in this case not play) the ball and then step outside once the delivery is completed.
    Apols for reopening this since people no doubt did it to death yesterday when I wasn't around but a question - What is meant to indicate that the ball is now 'dead' following a delivery?

    Ok, so with Bairstowgate it was the last ball of the over and it's the umpire calling 'over' (which he hadn't done), I get that, but what if it were say the 3rd ball of the over, I'm batting, I leave it and it goes through to the keeper, what is it in the Rules of the Game that tells me for a 100% fact that the ball is dead and I'm therefore ok to start farting around outside my crease?
    Well apparently you need to now directly ask both the umpire and keeper!

    In practice it's not done as you imply as cricketers effectively have a gentlemen's agreement not to stump the batsman when the ball has gone through and he has scratched his crease.
    Yes, dodgy as hell, no question. Dirty cheating Aussies. Too many moustaches and no class.

    But it's just this point various pundits have been making that the umpire hadn't called 'over'. So technically the ball wasn't dead. In which case (I'm wondering) what if it hadn't been the last ball of the over? Is there an equivalent there, eg the umpire calling 'ball'?

    If not, you have a different 'special' scenario for the last ball. Which sounds wrong to me. But it also sounds wrong to me that the umpire calls 'ball' (because I don't think that happens).

    Bee in my bonnet. Have to deal with it somehow.
    See my erudite post below. Calling over doesn't actually make the ball dead; it's just that you can't call over before the ball is dead. The over call is irrelevant, but whether the ball is dead or not depends on various other considerations. This is the bit everyone is citing in this case:

    20.1.2 The ball shall be considered to be dead when it is clear to the bowler’s end umpire that the fielding side and both batters at the wicket have ceased to regard it as in play.

    So Bairstow presumably thought the umpire had come to that conclusion.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,034
    edited July 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    "New Conservatives
    Common Sense for the Common Good

    Gareth Bacon MP, Duncan Baker MP, Jack Brereton MP, Paul Bristow MP, Miriam Cates MP,
    Brendan Clarke-Smith MP, James Daly MP, Anna Firth MP, Nick Fletcher MP, Chris Green MP,
    James Grundy MP, Jonathan Gullis MP, Eddie Hughes MP, Tom Hunt MP, Mark Jenkinson MP,
    Danny Kruger MP, Andrew Lewer MP, Marco Longhi MP, Robin Millar MP, Lia Nici MP"

    https://www.thenewconservatives.co.uk/


    Introducing, the anti-growth coalition!
    You are being polite - RefUK trojans more like

    I would add that I made strong requests to Robin Millar to remove Johnson and he prevaricated, dodged and tried to defend him at every occasion which explains quite a lot

    He has no chance of retaining his seat anyway

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Andy_JS said:

    New video from Andrew Bridgen MP.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuUxpS9kkGw

    "An Update From Andrew Bridgen on his Legal Case Against Matt Hancock"

    I never thought I would write this, but I'm rooting for Matt Hancock.
This discussion has been closed.