So Sunak's government now has a net satisfaction rating higher than Major's in 1997 and higher than Truss and May's, even if slightly worse than Boris'
A result a bit better than than Major in 1997 is still a disaster for the Tories.
Given the Tories were heading for a 1993 Canadian Tories style wipeout and less than 50 seats under Truss last autumn, many Tory MPs would have bitten your hand off for a slightly better than Major 1997 result back then
They were not heading for that - polling is a snapshot not a prediction, as you will know.
Your threadbare Sunak ramping as he marches the Tory Party to crushing defeat is embarrassing.
They were. Truss resigned on 21 October last year, all polls in the week before her resignation had the Tories under 25%. One People Polling poll had the Tories on just 14%, Redfield had the Tories on just 19%. Results which would have left the Tories nearer 0 than 50 seats under FPTP
They were not, because a GE was not due to take place in the week before/after her resignation. Had a GE been imminent, then yes, your point would have some validity.
Under Sunak, the Tories have made a modest recovery which indicates little except some died in the wool Tory supporters reverting to type. There is no indication that had Truss stayed, this wouldn't still have happened.
The minor recovery has only happened under Sunak, had Truss stayed the polling evidence is the Tories would not only have lost to Labour by a landslide but ceased to be the main Opposition. The LDs or SNP may well have won more MPs than the Truss Tories would have
I don't see what polling evidence there could be that could prove this hypothetical situation, but by all means present some.
Truss was prepared to be unpopular (not that unpopular obvs.) in the short term because she believed that there was a pay off in her policies that would manifest itself before the GE - a healthier economy, more affordable childcare, increased energy supply leading to lower bills, increased food supply leading to lower food costs, increased investment from the cancelling of the CT rise etc.
Had those policies borne fruit, a modest, or even non-modest polling recovery could have taken place. Even if they hadn't, one would still expect a small recovery as the mini-budget fiasco died as a news story.
I have just given you one.
Put in the last Redfield poll under Truss' Premiership and you got Labour 571 seats, SNP 33, LDs 19 and Tories just 6.
Now however the latest Redfield poll gives Labour 469, Tories 105, SNP 33, LD 22. So even on that poll Sunak still doing about 100 MPs better than Truss
I am not going to lambast you for being stupid, because I know full well that you completely understand the point that I am making; you're just choosing not to acknowledge it.
I will merely reiterate that mid-term polling, especially in the immediate aftermath of a policy crisis like the mini-budget fiasco, cannot predict the outcome of a General Election due to take place more than two years in the future. You know that, I know that, anyone who reads PB knows that.
So you don't have any evidence that had Truss survived, the Tories wouldn't have recovered in the polls - I didn't think you would have.
Yes I know you think Truss would have recovered but on the polls before she resigned even Epping Forest would have gone Labour. Brentwood and Ongar (where we now live) would have been one of the handful of Tory seats left (and only because of the rural bits around Ongar, Brentwood itself would also have gone Labour)
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
I have been reading journalist articles with stories of pain today. It strikes me that many of these people were naive, stupid or both. Examples of people having been on interest-only mortgages for 20 years to pay for home improvements and whatever else they wanted to spend their money on (cars, holidays etc.). Buy-to-let landlords on interest-only mortgages were quite happy to profit from rising house prices at the expense of renters unable to get on the housing ladder. They now seem horrified that their good times are coming to an end.
I forget who on here has been repeatedly mentioning how inflation has been high for years through house prices (may of been @MaxPB ). If it had been included and the BoE had to target that too then we would never have seen such low interest rates for year after year. People would have been more cautious and house prices would have been more affordable.
I expect to see large numbers of people very soon to be unable to afford their mortgages and trying to sell. House prices will fall and then causing negative equity too. The government will get blamed for this but it has been a disaster 20 years in the making along with the BoE recently totally failing in their remit.
I hope that lessons are learned from this and that house prices are included in the rate of inflation that the BoE has to target.
It is the 1990's repeating all over again and it took 5 years for house prices to recover
So you are talking about the period from 1992 to 1997 where prices went from the lows to something approaching the high prices reached in 1989... (an aside but it took longer than that a neighbour in the old house we bought in Kent took until 2001 before his house reached the price he bought it at).
At the moment the market is still in the no-mans land where asking prices are sky high but surveyors are returning lower valuations. It's still probably a year minimum until reality hits the markets.
Google
When was negative equity in the UK?
'The collapse of the British housing market since the late 1980s has led, to the widespread emergence of a new phenomenon, negative equity, which manifested itself on a mass scale for the first time in British housing history in 1991.
It lasted about four years, from the end of the 1980s to around 1994'
It was an intense and difficult period for very many and it took certainly to the 2000s for any form of house price recovery
I agree it is at least a year away for reality to hit the market, but with the prospect of interest rates rising to 6%, with little respite before 2025, it is a near repeat of the 1991 crisis
Fantastic news!
Yes negative equity has its problems and had we had stable prices then we may have been able to avoid it's repeat, but we have had rampant uncontrolled housing inflation with successive governments of both parties and the Bank of England all saying either "isn't this good?" or "not my problem".
Now a correction may be upon us. Great. And yes a correction may be painful, but speak to families getting thrown out of their home at 2 months notice due to a Section 21 order or similar time and again without any recourse to get the stability of a home of their own, and the present and immediate past were painful too.
Oh dear, just when I was beginning to like some of your posts you have reverted to your "fuck everyone else this might suit me" attitudes. Negative equity mainly hits the relatively young who have recently stretched themselves to buy their first home. Those with families. Those that can least afford it.
Stating that house price deflation is a good thing is like suggesting that the poor ought to get on and die to decrease the surplus population.
Either proposition requires the person proposing it to be that word that might cause one to get an immediate ban on PB.
Arguing against house price deflation is like saying the young people who can't afford to buy should LITERALLY SELL THEIR BLOOD TO THE BOOMER SCUM WHO ARE ALREADY BLEEDING THEM DRY.
See, we can all say silly things that don't really represent each other's views, but it doesn't get us anywhere, does it?
And as much as I've had fierce rows with BR in the past, I agree with him on this. A house is a place for living and it should be affordable to anyone. The excessive house price inflation is a policy choice that favours some groups over others. Nobody thinks reversing that will be entirely pain free, but the same applies to NOT reversing it.
You really shouldn't use phrases like "boomer scum".
It was used as an example of a 'silly thing' to say.
Yes, exactly. I also don't think "boomer scum" - or "the good folk of the postwar generation", choose your preferred term - are literal bloodsuckers.
I just think gearing economic policy to overinflating house prices is harmful and should be reversed, and that saying so is a very long way away from saying the poor should die. We can have these differences of opinions without resorting to outlandish claims that the other side is evil.
To bite the bullet fired by Nigel, I accept that negative equity will be ruinous for some people. But I do not accept that it is something done solely to them by outsiders. When you take out a loan, there's always a risk you won't be able to pay it back and end up suffering for it. There is no such thing as a credit default that isn't in SOME way your own fault, even if the circumstances are bizarrely unlucky. This is because you can't default on a debt unless you actively choose to take on a debt. The minute you sign up for that loan, you should be cognisant of that risk.
Now that's not the same as proving my point. You can still make a valid argument for socialising risk. But to succeed in that argument you do at least have to overcome the question of moral hazard: why should I pay for the risk you took? If the only answer is "because my default will be very painful to me", then I remain unconvinced.
So Sunak's government now has a net satisfaction rating higher than Major's in 1997 and higher than Truss and May's, even if slightly worse than Boris'
A result a bit better than than Major in 1997 is still a disaster for the Tories.
Given the Tories were heading for a 1993 Canadian Tories style wipeout and less than 50 seats under Truss last autumn, many Tory MPs would have bitten your hand off for a slightly better than Major 1997 result back then
They were not heading for that - polling is a snapshot not a prediction, as you will know.
Your threadbare Sunak ramping as he marches the Tory Party to crushing defeat is embarrassing.
They were. Truss resigned on 21 October last year, all polls in the week before her resignation had the Tories under 25%. One People Polling poll had the Tories on just 14%, Redfield had the Tories on just 19%. Results which would have left the Tories nearer 0 than 50 seats under FPTP
They were not, because a GE was not due to take place in the week before/after her resignation. Had a GE been imminent, then yes, your point would have some validity.
Under Sunak, the Tories have made a modest recovery which indicates little except some died in the wool Tory supporters reverting to type. There is no indication that had Truss stayed, this wouldn't still have happened.
The minor recovery has only happened under Sunak, had Truss stayed the polling evidence is the Tories would not only have lost to Labour by a landslide but ceased to be the main Opposition. The LDs or SNP may well have won more MPs than the Truss Tories would have
I don't see what polling evidence there could be that could prove this hypothetical situation, but by all means present some.
Truss was prepared to be unpopular (not that unpopular obvs.) in the short term because she believed that there was a pay off in her policies that would manifest itself before the GE - a healthier economy, more affordable childcare, increased energy supply leading to lower bills, increased food supply leading to lower food costs, increased investment from the cancelling of the CT rise etc.
Had those policies borne fruit, a modest, or even non-modest polling recovery could have taken place. Even if they hadn't, one would still expect a small recovery as the mini-budget fiasco died as a news story.
I have just given you one.
Put in the last Redfield poll under Truss' Premiership and you got Labour 571 seats, SNP 33, LDs 19 and Tories just 6.
Now however the latest Redfield poll gives Labour 469, Tories 105, SNP 33, LD 22. So even on that poll Sunak still doing about 100 MPs better than Truss
I am not going to lambast you for being stupid, because I know full well that you completely understand the point that I am making; you're just choosing not to acknowledge it.
I will merely reiterate that mid-term polling, especially in the immediate aftermath of a policy crisis like the mini-budget fiasco, cannot predict the outcome of a General Election due to take place more than two years in the future. You know that, I know that, anyone who reads PB knows that.
So you don't have any evidence that had Truss survived, the Tories wouldn't have recovered in the polls - I didn't think you would have.
Yes I know you think Truss would have recovered but on the polls before she resigned even Epping Forest would have gone Labour. Brentwood and Ongar (where we now live) would have been one of the handful of Tory seats left (and only because of the rural bits around Ongar, Brentwood itself would also have gone Labour)
I think we can both agree that the polls at the end of Liz Truss's premiership were catastrophic. However, we cannot infer that no recovery would have taken place - and tbf I cannot infer that a significant recovery in excess of what Sunak has managed would have taken place. Truss was always a gamble. What upsets me about Sunak is there's no gamble, just crushing certainty.
We are at 47.4% fossil fuels, and 20.6% renewables.
Given on windy days we can easily see these figures reversed, it's clear that a workable form of energy storage (preferably medium-term storage) is vital. Goodness knows what form that will be, though.
Store the excess energy as heat. I think 1970's storage heaters controllable by internet for weather conditions and best spot rates for domestic use. Heated sand for industrial storage. Sand is the cheapest material and has a massive heat capacity.
People have been trying to build such systems for years. Lots of detail problems to solve.
What are the main problems with sand based heat storage for excess electricity production, bearing in mind the economic case only has to be justified on the marginal cost at peak prices?
Well, you now have a pile of red to sand. How do you get the heat back, efficiently?
This leads to molten salts, eutectic (lead/bismuth) etc...
I know you two are going to bang back and forth about energy-to-heat-to-heat-storage-to-energy all day - molten salts! - so I'll just say "you know we can pump water up a mountain and let it flow back down", like we've been doing for forty years, and leave it there
We have too few mountains for it to be viable, Dinorwig for example can supply about 2000mwh for a period of 4 to 5 hours before running dry.
Grid usage is approximately 290,000mwh on average so to fill in for a day when wind isnt blowing would take 725 dinorwigs....good luck with that
We are at 47.4% fossil fuels, and 20.6% renewables.
Given on windy days we can easily see these figures reversed, it's clear that a workable form of energy storage (preferably medium-term storage) is vital. Goodness knows what form that will be, though.
Store the excess energy as heat. I think 1970's storage heaters controllable by internet for weather conditions and best spot rates for domestic use. Heated sand for industrial storage. Sand is the cheapest material and has a massive heat capacity.
People have been trying to build such systems for years. Lots of detail problems to solve.
What are the main problems with sand based heat storage for excess electricity production, bearing in mind the economic case only has to be justified on the marginal cost at peak prices?
Well, you now have a pile of red to sand. How do you get the heat back, efficiently?
This leads to molten salts, eutectic (lead/bismuth) etc...
I know you two are going to bang back and forth about energy-to-heat-to-heat-storage-to-energy all day - molten salts! - so I'll just say "you know we can pump water up a mountain and let it flow back down", like we've been doing for forty years, and leave it there
The amount of storage required would only be possible in and for an independent Scotland (now, there's a thought..)
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
You were making some good points up until that idiotic last sentence
I see GenX / Boomer journalists have just discovered that furries exist.
I wonder which child messing with their teacher was responsible for this latest outburst of outrage? “Sir, Robert identifies as a cat now, didn’t you know?”
Hunt announces mortgage measures agreed today with the industry
Customers can talk to their lender without impacting their credit score
Customers can change to interest only or extend their mortgage and go back to their original deal within 6 months
Minimum period of 12 months before a home is repossessed without consent
I'm really disappointed that no other parties suggested that the mortgage lenders should be encouraged to be more accomodating! Oh wait they did, earlier in the week.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
Though there's some evidence that younger people identify less strongly as British:
(admittedly "English" rather than "British" in this example)
Interesting question as to whether this is a generational shift, or whether they become more British-identifying as they get older (in the same way that people are said to become more right-wing).
(Personally; I love the Britain of rolling landscapes and narrow canals, Herbert Howells and Factory Records. I loathe Westminster and the rest of the British polity. Dunno what that makes me. A tedious remainer crank probably.)
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
So Sunak's government now has a net satisfaction rating higher than Major's in 1997 and higher than Truss and May's, even if slightly worse than Boris'
A result a bit better than than Major in 1997 is still a disaster for the Tories.
Given the Tories were heading for a 1993 Canadian Tories style wipeout and less than 50 seats under Truss last autumn, many Tory MPs would have bitten your hand off for a slightly better than Major 1997 result back then
They were not heading for that - polling is a snapshot not a prediction, as you will know.
Your threadbare Sunak ramping as he marches the Tory Party to crushing defeat is embarrassing.
They were. Truss resigned on 21 October last year, all polls in the week before her resignation had the Tories under 25%. One People Polling poll had the Tories on just 14%, Redfield had the Tories on just 19%. Results which would have left the Tories nearer 0 than 50 seats under FPTP
They were not, because a GE was not due to take place in the week before/after her resignation. Had a GE been imminent, then yes, your point would have some validity.
Under Sunak, the Tories have made a modest recovery which indicates little except some died in the wool Tory supporters reverting to type. There is no indication that had Truss stayed, this wouldn't still have happened.
The minor recovery has only happened under Sunak, had Truss stayed the polling evidence is the Tories would not only have lost to Labour by a landslide but ceased to be the main Opposition. The LDs or SNP may well have won more MPs than the Truss Tories would have
I don't see what polling evidence there could be that could prove this hypothetical situation, but by all means present some.
Truss was prepared to be unpopular (not that unpopular obvs.) in the short term because she believed that there was a pay off in her policies that would manifest itself before the GE - a healthier economy, more affordable childcare, increased energy supply leading to lower bills, increased food supply leading to lower food costs, increased investment from the cancelling of the CT rise etc.
Had those policies borne fruit, a modest, or even non-modest polling recovery could have taken place. Even if they hadn't, one would still expect a small recovery as the mini-budget fiasco died as a news story.
I have just given you one.
Put in the last Redfield poll under Truss' Premiership and you got Labour 571 seats, SNP 33, LDs 19 and Tories just 6.
Now however the latest Redfield poll gives Labour 469, Tories 105, SNP 33, LD 22. So even on that poll Sunak still doing about 100 MPs better than Truss
I am not going to lambast you for being stupid, because I know full well that you completely understand the point that I am making; you're just choosing not to acknowledge it.
I will merely reiterate that mid-term polling, especially in the immediate aftermath of a policy crisis like the mini-budget fiasco, cannot predict the outcome of a General Election due to take place more than two years in the future. You know that, I know that, anyone who reads PB knows that.
So you don't have any evidence that had Truss survived, the Tories wouldn't have recovered in the polls - I didn't think you would have.
Yes I know you think Truss would have recovered but on the polls before she resigned even Epping Forest would have gone Labour. Brentwood and Ongar (where we now live) would have been one of the handful of Tory seats left (and only because of the rural bits around Ongar, Brentwood itself would also have gone Labour)
I think we can both agree that the polls at the end of Liz Truss's premiership were catastrophic. However, we cannot infer that no recovery would have taken place - and tbf I cannot infer that a significant recovery in excess of what Sunak has managed would have taken place. Truss was always a gamble. What upsets me about Sunak is there's no gamble, just crushing certainty.
How is it a Trussian future carries with it the normal caveat of an unseeable future, but you absolutely know what is going to happen under Sunak? Has the change of PM somehow shifted the laws of thermodynamics?
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
The key advantage for both Blair and Cameron was the media were on board. The media are wholly against Starmer. Whether media support (or rather lack of it) is as important today as it was in 1997 and 2010 is debateable.
Hunt announces mortgage measures agreed today with the industry
Customers can talk to their lender without impacting their credit score
Customers can change to interest only or extend their mortgage and go back to their original deal within 6 months
Minimum period of 12 months before a home is repossessed without consent
I'm really disappointed that no other parties suggested that the mortgage lenders should be encouraged to be more accomodating! Oh wait they did, earlier in the week.
Customers can talk to their lender without impacting their credit score.
The nation's overwhelming gratitude to Hunt for enabling this is going to turn the opinion polls upside down, mark my words.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
Wait a second, are you the one who claimed The Rt Hon. The Viscount Stansgate, Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn, wasn't a "proper" toff?
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
What exactly was the cost of freedom of movement ? Most economic analysis has FoM as defined by the European variety as a net benefit for the UK.
Right-wing idiots joining the left-wing idiots from yesterday, in tying to make political capital from a tragedy.
Can people no longer think before opening their mouths online?
The guy who built the sub was one of the victims, he wouldn’t have been there if he thought it was unsafe. That said, deep-sea exploration is unfathomably (sic) dangerous, and they all knew there was a chance of catastrophic failure.
I sympathise with the sentiment that these deaths should not be used to make cheap political points. I feel particularly awful about the University of Strathclyde student who went on the trip with his Dad as a Father's Day present and was apparently terrified.
Nevertheless, I think I don't think we can shy away from discussing the fact that this tragedy has resulted in eye watering amounts of public money (largely North American public money) being spent on rescue efforts and the diversion of military resources. To get on a ski slope in most places you have to take out insurance to cover the chances of something going wrong. Doing something this inherently dangerous (I read that the disclaimer mentioned 'death' three times on the first page) needs to have some sort of financial scheme to cover these eventualities. Isn't there a £10k fee for climbing Everest now?
Also, the Titanic is a resting place for about 1500 people. Can we not leave them in peace as we do Military Maritime Graves under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 (although perhaps that doesn't stop tourism)?
Most of that American money was spent anyway. It's not like they hurriedly built some ships and press-ganged some new sailors.
In general terms, militaries usually love having a civilian emergency to deal with. For the men on the ground, it’s a chance to show off their capability, skills, and training; and for the brass hats, it’s a chance to show their value to the politicians who sign the cheques.
It’s a different equation when volunteer rescuers are involved though - ask the mountain rescue folks, what they think of the idiots who climb a mountain in shorts and flip-flops, when it’s almost freezing at the top and fog was forecast.
In USA, in mountain other similar rescue situations, public agencies are (mostly) the core of rescue efforts, aided by (plenty) of volunteers.
And generally agencies such as local sheriff's departments and the like, have the ability to charge those they rescue for costs incurred. Though reckon that 90% plus of the time, they don't.
Though you never hear of the volunteer mountain rescue or lifeboat crews, in the U.K., saying “Screw those stupid people.”
They always go. Though you hear stories of people speaking their minds to the rescued.
Same in USA.
Nearest I have come to witnessing this was on a beach near Biarritz. The very proficient lifeguards had just hauled a man out of the water after he had nearly drowned as a result of swimming outside the safe zone clearly denoted by flags and supervised vigourously by said lifeguards.
He could barely speak but that didn't stop them from fining him on the spot and delivering some choice words as they did so.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
I take you point but dispute your numbers. Quite a lot of Brits studied in the EU, or worked temporarily in the EU (think of the bands touring, now finding it much harder), young Brits got jobs in ski resorts or Spanish holiday towns, and so on. And many people had second homes in the EU
Probably more like 20% of the country used FoM in some form (is my rough guess)
And for some others it was just the sense of possibility they liked. One day they could retire to the sun in Cyprus; Not any more
And I share their pain to an extent and I wish we could get FoM back in a way that suits Brexiteers and Remainers. A man is allowed to dream
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make. I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
What exactly was the cost of freedom of movement ? Most economic analysis has FoM as defined by the European variety as a net benefit for the UK.
The price of freedom of movement is being in the EU had a cost. It was a benefit to the GDP of the country but not such a benefit to people who's jobs were nailed to minimum wage by the infinite labour pool, nor such a benefit to places like slough where I used to live where the population grew by about ten percent in a year due to Eastern european accession without any sign of extra doctors, police, hospital provision, school places and certainly not a sufficient increase in housing.
Hunt announces mortgage measures agreed today with the industry
Customers can talk to their lender without impacting their credit score
Customers can change to interest only or extend their mortgage and go back to their original deal within 6 months
Minimum period of 12 months before a home is repossessed without consent
I'm really disappointed that no other parties suggested that the mortgage lenders should be encouraged to be more accomodating! Oh wait they did, earlier in the week.
Customers can talk to their lender without impacting their credit score.
The nation's overwhelming gratitude to Hunt for enabling this is going to turn the opinion polls upside down, mark my words.
Are you suggesting that won't come as welcome succour for those who are downgrading to a Halfords tent? At least they can buy it on their credit card?
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
What exactly was the cost of freedom of movement ? Most economic analysis has FoM as defined by the European variety as a net benefit for the UK.
The price of freedom of movement is being in the EU had a cost. It was a benefit to the GDP of the country but not such a benefit to people who's jobs were nailed to minimum wage by the infinite labour pool, nor such a benefit to places like slough where I used to live where the population grew by about ten percent in a year due to Eastern european accession without any sign of extra doctors, police, hospital provision, school places and certainly not a sufficient increase in housing.
Where are all the immigrants going now that we've left? Somewhere other than Slough? Or still Slough?
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
I take you point but dispute your numbers. Quite a lot of Brits studied in the EU, or worked temporarily in the EU (think of the bands touring, now finding it much harder), young Brits got jobs in ski resorts or Spanish holiday towns, and so on. And many people had second homes in the EU
Probably more like 20% of the country used FoM in some form (is my rough guess)
And for some others it was just the sense of possibility they liked. One day they could retire to the sun in Cyprus; Not any more
And I share their pain to an extent and I wish we could get FoM back in a way that suits Brexiteers and Remainers. A man is allowed to dream
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
I take you point but dispute your numbers. Quite a lot of Brits studied in the EU, or worked temporarily in the EU (think of the bands touring, now finding it much harder), young Brits got jobs in ski resorts or Spanish holiday towns, and so on. And many people had second homes in the EU
Probably more like 20% of the country used FoM in some form (is my rough guess)
And for some others it was just the sense of possibility they liked. One day they could retire to the sun in Cyprus; Not any more
And I share their pain to an extent and I wish we could get FoM back in a way that suits Brexiteers and Remainers. A man is allowed to dream
You are having a laugh....20% don't talk bollocks 13 million have not worked abroad or studied abroad. The figure for brits using FoM to move or work in EU countries has always been dwarfed by them moving to america/australia etc and the figures for those is less than 3%
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make. I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
And if his Master is an arrogant Tory of the corrupt and incompetent kind, Jack is a great deal better.
We are at 47.4% fossil fuels, and 20.6% renewables.
Given on windy days we can easily see these figures reversed, it's clear that a workable form of energy storage (preferably medium-term storage) is vital. Goodness knows what form that will be, though.
Store the excess energy as heat. I think 1970's storage heaters controllable by internet for weather conditions and best spot rates for domestic use. Heated sand for industrial storage. Sand is the cheapest material and has a massive heat capacity.
People have been trying to build such systems for years. Lots of detail problems to solve.
What are the main problems with sand based heat storage for excess electricity production, bearing in mind the economic case only has to be justified on the marginal cost at peak prices?
Well, you now have a pile of red to sand. How do you get the heat back, efficiently?
This leads to molten salts, eutectic (lead/bismuth) etc...
I know you two are going to bang back and forth about energy-to-heat-to-heat-storage-to-energy all day - molten salts! - so I'll just say "you know we can pump water up a mountain and let it flow back down", like we've been doing for forty years, and leave it there
Sadly, there seem to be some small impediments in my plan to blow the top off Ben Nevis with a 10 megaton nuclear weapon to create suitable location for pumped storage.
There aren't even vaguely enough places for pumped storage in the UK, compared to the size of the demand on the grid, to do storage on a sufficient scale.
Incidentally, it would cost about the same to build the same capacity as Dinorwig out of trailers full of batteries https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/megapack
A Megapack is now about $900k dollars. So $300K per MWh.
Dinorwig is 9.1 GWh - 9100 x 300k = $2.7 billion
Dinorwig cost 485 million pounds between 1977 and 1984
Which is 2-4 billion today (big difference between 1977 and 1984. Good luck getting it done for that, again.
with the exchange rate, that's about $2.5-5 billion dollars.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
What exactly was the cost of freedom of movement ? Most economic analysis has FoM as defined by the European variety as a net benefit for the UK.
The price of freedom of movement is being in the EU had a cost. It was a benefit to the GDP of the country but not such a benefit to people who's jobs were nailed to minimum wage by the infinite labour pool, nor such a benefit to places like slough where I used to live where the population grew by about ten percent in a year due to Eastern european accession without any sign of extra doctors, police, hospital provision, school places and certainly not a sufficient increase in housing.
Where are all the immigrants going now that we've left? Somewhere other than Slough? Or still Slough?
Difference is now their are lower bounds for salaries at least so those that come are actually paying their way. Someone coming over to work a minimum wage job is not contributing above their cost to the state. Please don't try to say a lot of EU workers weren't working min wage jobs in hospitality as that has been a complaint of certain posters here that those nice eastern european hospitality staff have vanished.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
Hardcore former Remainers please.
Perhaps we only became awful, nasty, sneering and mentally inadequate, after we were constantly told by awful, nasty, sneering and mentally inadequate Leavers, "you lost, suck it up losers".
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
I take you point but dispute your numbers. Quite a lot of Brits studied in the EU, or worked temporarily in the EU (think of the bands touring, now finding it much harder), young Brits got jobs in ski resorts or Spanish holiday towns, and so on. And many people had second homes in the EU
Probably more like 20% of the country used FoM in some form (is my rough guess)
And for some others it was just the sense of possibility they liked. One day they could retire to the sun in Cyprus; Not any more
And I share their pain to an extent and I wish we could get FoM back in a way that suits Brexiteers and Remainers. A man is allowed to dream
You are having a laugh....20% don't talk bollocks 13 million have not worked abroad or studied abroad. The figure for brits using FoM to move or work in EU countries has always been dwarfed by them moving to america/australia etc and the figures for those is less than 3%
I did pluck the numbef out of my Cornish butt, so it is quite probably wrong, but I still feel 2% is an underestimate
But the point remains the same. A lot of Remainer angst is the loss of FoM. If they could get that back they could be mollified, and we would still be Brexit Britain. And then we could all move on from frigging Brexit, which would be a good thing
Right-wing idiots joining the left-wing idiots from yesterday, in tying to make political capital from a tragedy.
Can people no longer think before opening their mouths online?
The guy who built the sub was one of the victims, he wouldn’t have been there if he thought it was unsafe. That said, deep-sea exploration is unfathomably (sic) dangerous, and they all knew there was a chance of catastrophic failure.
I sympathise with the sentiment that these deaths should not be used to make cheap political points. I feel particularly awful about the University of Strathclyde student who went on the trip with his Dad as a Father's Day present and was apparently terrified.
Nevertheless, I think I don't think we can shy away from discussing the fact that this tragedy has resulted in eye watering amounts of public money (largely North American public money) being spent on rescue efforts and the diversion of military resources. To get on a ski slope in most places you have to take out insurance to cover the chances of something going wrong. Doing something this inherently dangerous (I read that the disclaimer mentioned 'death' three times on the first page) needs to have some sort of financial scheme to cover these eventualities. Isn't there a £10k fee for climbing Everest now?
Also, the Titanic is a resting place for about 1500 people. Can we not leave them in peace as we do Military Maritime Graves under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 (although perhaps that doesn't stop tourism)?
Most of that American money was spent anyway. It's not like they hurriedly built some ships and press-ganged some new sailors.
In general terms, militaries usually love having a civilian emergency to deal with. For the men on the ground, it’s a chance to show off their capability, skills, and training; and for the brass hats, it’s a chance to show their value to the politicians who sign the cheques.
It’s a different equation when volunteer rescuers are involved though - ask the mountain rescue folks, what they think of the idiots who climb a mountain in shorts and flip-flops, when it’s almost freezing at the top and fog was forecast.
In USA, in mountain other similar rescue situations, public agencies are (mostly) the core of rescue efforts, aided by (plenty) of volunteers.
And generally agencies such as local sheriff's departments and the like, have the ability to charge those they rescue for costs incurred. Though reckon that 90% plus of the time, they don't.
Though you never hear of the volunteer mountain rescue or lifeboat crews, in the U.K., saying “Screw those stupid people.”
They always go. Though you hear stories of people speaking their minds to the rescued.
Same in USA.
Nearest I have come to witnessing this was on a beach near Biarritz. The very proficient lifeguards had just hauled a man out of the water after he had nearly drowned as a result of swimming outside the safe zone clearly denoted by flags and supervised vigourously by said lifeguards.
He could barely speak but that didn't stop them from fining him on the spot and delivering some choice words as they did so.
They had the crowd with them.
The story I heard of UK mountain rescue was that they took turns to explain to someone what an arse he had been, as they hauled him down the mountain on a stretcher. He complained, later, that they had hurt his feelings.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make. I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
Some Remainers unfortunately do seem to operate within a kind of caste system with themselves at the top, EU migrants as an approved labouring class, and Brexit voters as the untouchables with whom they are embarrassed to share a country. It's the "but who will serve my sandwiches in Pret?" attitude.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
I take you point but dispute your numbers. Quite a lot of Brits studied in the EU, or worked temporarily in the EU (think of the bands touring, now finding it much harder), young Brits got jobs in ski resorts or Spanish holiday towns, and so on. And many people had second homes in the EU
Probably more like 20% of the country used FoM in some form (is my rough guess)
And for some others it was just the sense of possibility they liked. One day they could retire to the sun in Cyprus; Not any more
And I share their pain to an extent and I wish we could get FoM back in a way that suits Brexiteers and Remainers. A man is allowed to dream
You are having a laugh....20% don't talk bollocks 13 million have not worked abroad or studied abroad. The figure for brits using FoM to move or work in EU countries has always been dwarfed by them moving to america/australia etc and the figures for those is less than 3%
I did pluck the numbef out of my Cornish butt, so it is quite probably wrong, but I still feel 2% is an underestimate
But the point remains the same. A lot of Remainer angst is the loss of FoM. If they could get that back they could be mollified, and we would still be Brexit Britain. And then we could all move on from frigging Brexit, which would be a good thing
Last stat I saw for people living and working in the eu (including retirees) was approx 700K. 65 million population then 700k is just over 1% so I doubled it to account for people who did work there.....even multiplying by 5 which I would say is the upper bound to account for is only 5%
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make. I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
Some Remainers unfortunately do seem to operate within a kind of caste system with themselves at the top, EU migrants as an approved labouring class, and Brexit voters as the untouchables with whom they are embarrassed to share a country. It's the "but who will serve my sandwiches in Pret?" attitude.
A peak version of this was the poster here, who complained that the waiters in restaurants were insufficiently obsequious, after Brexit.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make. I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
Some Remainers unfortunately do seem to operate within a kind of caste system with themselves at the top, EU migrants as an approved labouring class, and Brexit voters as the untouchables with whom they are embarrassed to share a country. It's the "but who will serve my sandwiches in Pret?" attitude.
A peak version of this was the poster here, who complained that the waiters in restaurants were insufficiently obsequious, after Brexit.
Right-wing idiots joining the left-wing idiots from yesterday, in tying to make political capital from a tragedy.
Can people no longer think before opening their mouths online?
The guy who built the sub was one of the victims, he wouldn’t have been there if he thought it was unsafe. That said, deep-sea exploration is unfathomably (sic) dangerous, and they all knew there was a chance of catastrophic failure.
I sympathise with the sentiment that these deaths should not be used to make cheap political points. I feel particularly awful about the University of Strathclyde student who went on the trip with his Dad as a Father's Day present and was apparently terrified.
Nevertheless, I think I don't think we can shy away from discussing the fact that this tragedy has resulted in eye watering amounts of public money (largely North American public money) being spent on rescue efforts and the diversion of military resources. To get on a ski slope in most places you have to take out insurance to cover the chances of something going wrong. Doing something this inherently dangerous (I read that the disclaimer mentioned 'death' three times on the first page) needs to have some sort of financial scheme to cover these eventualities. Isn't there a £10k fee for climbing Everest now?
Also, the Titanic is a resting place for about 1500 people. Can we not leave them in peace as we do Military Maritime Graves under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 (although perhaps that doesn't stop tourism)?
Most of that American money was spent anyway. It's not like they hurriedly built some ships and press-ganged some new sailors.
In general terms, militaries usually love having a civilian emergency to deal with. For the men on the ground, it’s a chance to show off their capability, skills, and training; and for the brass hats, it’s a chance to show their value to the politicians who sign the cheques.
It’s a different equation when volunteer rescuers are involved though - ask the mountain rescue folks, what they think of the idiots who climb a mountain in shorts and flip-flops, when it’s almost freezing at the top and fog was forecast.
In USA, in mountain other similar rescue situations, public agencies are (mostly) the core of rescue efforts, aided by (plenty) of volunteers.
And generally agencies such as local sheriff's departments and the like, have the ability to charge those they rescue for costs incurred. Though reckon that 90% plus of the time, they don't.
Though you never hear of the volunteer mountain rescue or lifeboat crews, in the U.K., saying “Screw those stupid people.”
They always go. Though you hear stories of people speaking their minds to the rescued.
Same in USA.
Nearest I have come to witnessing this was on a beach near Biarritz. The very proficient lifeguards had just hauled a man out of the water after he had nearly drowned as a result of swimming outside the safe zone clearly denoted by flags and supervised vigourously by said lifeguards.
He could barely speak but that didn't stop them from fining him on the spot and delivering some choice words as they did so.
They had the crowd with them.
The story I heard of UK mountain rescue was that they took turns to explain to someone what an arse he had been, as they hauled him down the mountain on a stretcher. He complained, later, that they had hurt his feelings.
My fav story of this sort of thing: a blonde friend of mine was scuba diving in Malta. She got separated from her buddy and she got swept out to sea. Fortunately he managed to make it to a breakwater, but her frantic waving got the attention of people on the beach. A helicopter was called out, and she was picked up out of the water.
Once she was in the helicopter, the Maltese crew asked her: "Are you German?" "No, English," she replied. "Ah, we rescue English for free. We charge the Germans!"
So Sunak's government now has a net satisfaction rating higher than Major's in 1997 and higher than Truss and May's, even if slightly worse than Boris'
A result a bit better than than Major in 1997 is still a disaster for the Tories.
Given the Tories were heading for a 1993 Canadian Tories style wipeout and less than 50 seats under Truss last autumn, many Tory MPs would have bitten your hand off for a slightly better than Major 1997 result back then
They were not heading for that - polling is a snapshot not a prediction, as you will know.
Your threadbare Sunak ramping as he marches the Tory Party to crushing defeat is embarrassing.
They were. Truss resigned on 21 October last year, all polls in the week before her resignation had the Tories under 25%. One People Polling poll had the Tories on just 14%, Redfield had the Tories on just 19%. Results which would have left the Tories nearer 0 than 50 seats under FPTP
They were not, because a GE was not due to take place in the week before/after her resignation. Had a GE been imminent, then yes, your point would have some validity.
Under Sunak, the Tories have made a modest recovery which indicates little except some died in the wool Tory supporters reverting to type. There is no indication that had Truss stayed, this wouldn't still have happened.
The minor recovery has only happened under Sunak, had Truss stayed the polling evidence is the Tories would not only have lost to Labour by a landslide but ceased to be the main Opposition. The LDs or SNP may well have won more MPs than the Truss Tories would have
I don't see what polling evidence there could be that could prove this hypothetical situation, but by all means present some.
Truss was prepared to be unpopular (not that unpopular obvs.) in the short term because she believed that there was a pay off in her policies that would manifest itself before the GE - a healthier economy, more affordable childcare, increased energy supply leading to lower bills, increased food supply leading to lower food costs, increased investment from the cancelling of the CT rise etc.
Had those policies borne fruit, a modest, or even non-modest polling recovery could have taken place. Even if they hadn't, one would still expect a small recovery as the mini-budget fiasco died as a news story.
I have just given you one.
Put in the last Redfield poll under Truss' Premiership and you got Labour 571 seats, SNP 33, LDs 19 and Tories just 6.
Now however the latest Redfield poll gives Labour 469, Tories 105, SNP 33, LD 22. So even on that poll Sunak still doing about 100 MPs better than Truss
I am not going to lambast you for being stupid, because I know full well that you completely understand the point that I am making; you're just choosing not to acknowledge it.
I will merely reiterate that mid-term polling, especially in the immediate aftermath of a policy crisis like the mini-budget fiasco, cannot predict the outcome of a General Election due to take place more than two years in the future. You know that, I know that, anyone who reads PB knows that.
So you don't have any evidence that had Truss survived, the Tories wouldn't have recovered in the polls - I didn't think you would have.
Yes I know you think Truss would have recovered but on the polls before she resigned even Epping Forest would have gone Labour. Brentwood and Ongar (where we now live) would have been one of the handful of Tory seats left (and only because of the rural bits around Ongar, Brentwood itself would also have gone Labour)
I think we can both agree that the polls at the end of Liz Truss's premiership were catastrophic. However, we cannot infer that no recovery would have taken place - and tbf I cannot infer that a significant recovery in excess of what Sunak has managed would have taken place. Truss was always a gamble. What upsets me about Sunak is there's no gamble, just crushing certainty.
How is it a Trussian future carries with it the normal caveat of an unseeable future, but you absolutely know what is going to happen under Sunak? Has the change of PM somehow shifted the laws of thermodynamics?
The nature of their respective policy programmes. Crudely characterised, Truss's grab for growth was high risk/high reward, Sunak/Hunt's nails in the coffin approach is no risk/no reward.
I don't actually believe that Truss's policies were that risky, or Sunak's policies that free of risk, but as a summary it'll do.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
Hardcore Remainers have also long replaced Tory voters as the snobbiest voters around (and a lot of them happen to be LDs)
That really isn’t an assumption you are entitled to make. I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
Some Remainers unfortunately do seem to operate within a kind of caste system with themselves at the top, EU migrants as an approved labouring class, and Brexit voters as the untouchables with whom they are embarrassed to share a country. It's the "but who will serve my sandwiches in Pret?" attitude.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
What exactly was the cost of freedom of movement ? Most economic analysis has FoM as defined by the European variety as a net benefit for the UK.
The price of freedom of movement is being in the EU had a cost. It was a benefit to the GDP of the country but not such a benefit to people who's jobs were nailed to minimum wage by the infinite labour pool, nor such a benefit to places like slough where I used to live where the population grew by about ten percent in a year due to Eastern european accession without any sign of extra doctors, police, hospital provision, school places and certainly not a sufficient increase in housing.
Where are all the immigrants going now that we've left? Somewhere other than Slough? Or still Slough?
Difference is now their are lower bounds for salaries at least so those that come are actually paying their way. Someone coming over to work a minimum wage job is not contributing above their cost to the state. Please don't try to say a lot of EU workers weren't working min wage jobs in hospitality as that has been a complaint of certain posters here that those nice eastern european hospitality staff have vanished.
Yeah, I want to see some calculations before I trust you at your word on that. If someone comes here from abroad, we've not paid for their schooling, we're not paying for their retirement. On average they will be younger and healthier than the average person born here. How much are they costing the exchequer?
There are some areas of expenditure where they apply to immigrants because everybody benefits from them e.g. defence and policing. And some where they apply less to immigrants, like state pensions, health and social care. And others where it's really dubious whether you should apply it to them, such as debt interest payments (is new immigrant really responsible for UK government loans undertaken years before that immigrant ever came here?)
Of course, immigrants will pay PAYE/NI/VAT/Fuel duty/corporation tax/business rates in the normal way in most cases.
So, no, I'm not taking your word for it that someone on the minimum wage isn't "paying their way". Not without some proper tax/spend breakdowns that take account for the demographic skewness.
Britain doesn’t do capital investment. The culture is against it. Britain has lagged peer economies basically forever on this metric.
I don’t really know why that is. But I wonder if it stems back to Victorian times when frankly it was a more profitable use of capital to invest in Uruguayan mines and Californian railway, and so a weird “tradition” developed in which the home country was just left to fend for itself.
That worked only so long as Britain maintained industrial technology advantage but ever since 1860 it’s been a slow decline, and definitively so since (pick your date) 1918, 1925, or 1979.
We are at 47.4% fossil fuels, and 20.6% renewables.
Given on windy days we can easily see these figures reversed, it's clear that a workable form of energy storage (preferably medium-term storage) is vital. Goodness knows what form that will be, though.
Store the excess energy as heat. I think 1970's storage heaters controllable by internet for weather conditions and best spot rates for domestic use. Heated sand for industrial storage. Sand is the cheapest material and has a massive heat capacity.
People have been trying to build such systems for years. Lots of detail problems to solve.
What are the main problems with sand based heat storage for excess electricity production, bearing in mind the economic case only has to be justified on the marginal cost at peak prices?
Well, you now have a pile of red to sand. How do you get the heat back, efficiently?
This leads to molten salts, eutectic (lead/bismuth) etc...
I know you two are going to bang back and forth about energy-to-heat-to-heat-storage-to-energy all day - molten salts! - so I'll just say "you know we can pump water up a mountain and let it flow back down", like we've been doing for forty years, and leave it there
Sadly, there seem to be some small impediments in my plan to blow the top off Ben Nevis with a 10 megaton nuclear weapon to create suitable location for pumped storage.
There aren't even vaguely enough places for pumped storage in the UK, compared to the size of the demand on the grid, to do storage on a sufficient scale.
Incidentally, it would cost about the same to build the same capacity as Dinorwig out of trailers full of batteries https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/megapack
A Megapack is now about $900k dollars. So $300K per MWh.
Dinorwig is 9.1 GWh - 9100 x 300k = $2.7 billion
Dinorwig cost 485 million pounds between 1977 and 1984
Which is 2-4 billion today (big difference between 1977 and 1984. Good luck getting it done for that, again.
with the exchange rate, that's about $2.5-5 billion dollars.
Yes, but we can do another Dinorwig without having to bring in foreign equipment (and maintenance costs). We've had fifty years worth of object lessons in being dependent on the Saudis for oil, and a two-year reminder of the unwisdom of letting Putin grab our gentle bits with gas. I am fucked if we are lobbing yet more billions at Musk. Can we buy British, just for once? Let's stop enriching foreign fantasists, torturers, and dictators for once. We're British. We can dig a hole and lay pipe. Let's do that instead.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
I take you point but dispute your numbers. Quite a lot of Brits studied in the EU, or worked temporarily in the EU (think of the bands touring, now finding it much harder), young Brits got jobs in ski resorts or Spanish holiday towns, and so on. And many people had second homes in the EU
Probably more like 20% of the country used FoM in some form (is my rough guess)
And for some others it was just the sense of possibility they liked. One day they could retire to the sun in Cyprus; Not any more
And I share their pain to an extent and I wish we could get FoM back in a way that suits Brexiteers and Remainers. A man is allowed to dream
You are having a laugh....20% don't talk bollocks 13 million have not worked abroad or studied abroad. The figure for brits using FoM to move or work in EU countries has always been dwarfed by them moving to america/australia etc and the figures for those is less than 3%
I did pluck the numbef out of my Cornish butt, so it is quite probably wrong, but I still feel 2% is an underestimate
But the point remains the same. A lot of Remainer angst is the loss of FoM. If they could get that back they could be mollified, and we would still be Brexit Britain. And then we could all move on from frigging Brexit, which would be a good thing
Last stat I saw for people living and working in the eu (including retirees) was approx 700K. 65 million population then 700k is just over 1% so I doubled it to account for people who did work there.....even multiplying by 5 which I would say is the upper bound to account for is only 5%
It's more than 700k in just Spain, Ireland, and France combined. The total figure will be in excess of a million.
Right-wing idiots joining the left-wing idiots from yesterday, in tying to make political capital from a tragedy.
Can people no longer think before opening their mouths online?
The guy who built the sub was one of the victims, he wouldn’t have been there if he thought it was unsafe. That said, deep-sea exploration is unfathomably (sic) dangerous, and they all knew there was a chance of catastrophic failure.
I sympathise with the sentiment that these deaths should not be used to make cheap political points. I feel particularly awful about the University of Strathclyde student who went on the trip with his Dad as a Father's Day present and was apparently terrified.
Nevertheless, I think I don't think we can shy away from discussing the fact that this tragedy has resulted in eye watering amounts of public money (largely North American public money) being spent on rescue efforts and the diversion of military resources. To get on a ski slope in most places you have to take out insurance to cover the chances of something going wrong. Doing something this inherently dangerous (I read that the disclaimer mentioned 'death' three times on the first page) needs to have some sort of financial scheme to cover these eventualities. Isn't there a £10k fee for climbing Everest now?
Also, the Titanic is a resting place for about 1500 people. Can we not leave them in peace as we do Military Maritime Graves under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 (although perhaps that doesn't stop tourism)?
Most of that American money was spent anyway. It's not like they hurriedly built some ships and press-ganged some new sailors.
In general terms, militaries usually love having a civilian emergency to deal with. For the men on the ground, it’s a chance to show off their capability, skills, and training; and for the brass hats, it’s a chance to show their value to the politicians who sign the cheques.
It’s a different equation when volunteer rescuers are involved though - ask the mountain rescue folks, what they think of the idiots who climb a mountain in shorts and flip-flops, when it’s almost freezing at the top and fog was forecast.
In USA, in mountain other similar rescue situations, public agencies are (mostly) the core of rescue efforts, aided by (plenty) of volunteers.
And generally agencies such as local sheriff's departments and the like, have the ability to charge those they rescue for costs incurred. Though reckon that 90% plus of the time, they don't.
Though you never hear of the volunteer mountain rescue or lifeboat crews, in the U.K., saying “Screw those stupid people.”
They always go. Though you hear stories of people speaking their minds to the rescued.
Volunteer means what it says. Presumably they don’t sign up in the expectation of rescuing Chris Bonington or Ben Ainslie.
Just imagine you are lifeboatman rescuing someone who took one of those pedal boats 5 miles offshore. Which happens.
I see GenX / Boomer journalists have just discovered that furries exist.
I wonder which child messing with their teacher was responsible for this latest outburst of outrage? “Sir, Robert identifies as a cat now, didn’t you know?”
Right-wing idiots joining the left-wing idiots from yesterday, in tying to make political capital from a tragedy.
Can people no longer think before opening their mouths online?
The guy who built the sub was one of the victims, he wouldn’t have been there if he thought it was unsafe. That said, deep-sea exploration is unfathomably (sic) dangerous, and they all knew there was a chance of catastrophic failure.
I sympathise with the sentiment that these deaths should not be used to make cheap political points. I feel particularly awful about the University of Strathclyde student who went on the trip with his Dad as a Father's Day present and was apparently terrified.
Nevertheless, I think I don't think we can shy away from discussing the fact that this tragedy has resulted in eye watering amounts of public money (largely North American public money) being spent on rescue efforts and the diversion of military resources. To get on a ski slope in most places you have to take out insurance to cover the chances of something going wrong. Doing something this inherently dangerous (I read that the disclaimer mentioned 'death' three times on the first page) needs to have some sort of financial scheme to cover these eventualities. Isn't there a £10k fee for climbing Everest now?
Also, the Titanic is a resting place for about 1500 people. Can we not leave them in peace as we do Military Maritime Graves under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 (although perhaps that doesn't stop tourism)?
Most of that American money was spent anyway. It's not like they hurriedly built some ships and press-ganged some new sailors.
In general terms, militaries usually love having a civilian emergency to deal with. For the men on the ground, it’s a chance to show off their capability, skills, and training; and for the brass hats, it’s a chance to show their value to the politicians who sign the cheques.
It’s a different equation when volunteer rescuers are involved though - ask the mountain rescue folks, what they think of the idiots who climb a mountain in shorts and flip-flops, when it’s almost freezing at the top and fog was forecast.
In USA, in mountain other similar rescue situations, public agencies are (mostly) the core of rescue efforts, aided by (plenty) of volunteers.
And generally agencies such as local sheriff's departments and the like, have the ability to charge those they rescue for costs incurred. Though reckon that 90% plus of the time, they don't.
Though you never hear of the volunteer mountain rescue or lifeboat crews, in the U.K., saying “Screw those stupid people.”
They always go. Though you hear stories of people speaking their minds to the rescued.
Volunteer means what it says. Presumably they don’t sign up in the expectation of rescuing Chris Bonington or Ben Ainslie.
Just imagine you are lifeboatman rescuing someone who took one of those pedal boats 5 miles offshore. Which happens.
I believe a large proportion of RNLI callouts are from boats that have run out of fuel.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
What exactly was the cost of freedom of movement ? Most economic analysis has FoM as defined by the European variety as a net benefit for the UK.
The price of freedom of movement is being in the EU had a cost. It was a benefit to the GDP of the country but not such a benefit to people who's jobs were nailed to minimum wage by the infinite labour pool, nor such a benefit to places like slough where I used to live where the population grew by about ten percent in a year due to Eastern european accession without any sign of extra doctors, police, hospital provision, school places and certainly not a sufficient increase in housing.
My German sister-in-law is a doctor who, like many doctors from the EU, took advantage of FoM to spend a few years working in the UK during the early years of her career. Following Brexit, that supply of doctors from the EU is lower than it would otherwise have been, which is likely to be one of the reasons why it is now so hard for many people to get a doctor's appointment.
"The findings suggest that stagnation in the number of EU doctors in these specialties has exacerbated existing shortages in areas where the NHS has not been able to find enough qualified staff elsewhere. While deeper research into drivers of migration is needed, it appears likely that the decision to leave the EU in 2016 plays a role."
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
What exactly was the cost of freedom of movement ? Most economic analysis has FoM as defined by the European variety as a net benefit for the UK.
The price of freedom of movement is being in the EU had a cost. It was a benefit to the GDP of the country but not such a benefit to people who's jobs were nailed to minimum wage by the infinite labour pool, nor such a benefit to places like slough where I used to live where the population grew by about ten percent in a year due to Eastern european accession without any sign of extra doctors, police, hospital provision, school places and certainly not a sufficient increase in housing.
Where are all the immigrants going now that we've left? Somewhere other than Slough? Or still Slough?
Difference is now their are lower bounds for salaries at least so those that come are actually paying their way. Someone coming over to work a minimum wage job is not contributing above their cost to the state. Please don't try to say a lot of EU workers weren't working min wage jobs in hospitality as that has been a complaint of certain posters here that those nice eastern european hospitality staff have vanished.
Yeah, I want to see some calculations before I trust you at your word on that. If someone comes here from abroad, we've not paid for their schooling, we're not paying for their retirement. On average they will be younger and healthier than the average person. How much are they costing the exchequer?
There are some areas of expenditure where they apply to immigrants because everybody benefits from them e.g. defence and policing. And some where they apply less to immigrants, like state pensions, health and social care. And others where it's really dubious whether you should apply it to them, such as debt interest payments (is new immigrant really responsible for UK government loans undertaken years before that immigrant ever came here?)
Of course, immigrants will pay PAYE/NI/VAT/Fuel duty/corporation tax/business rates in the normal way in most cases.
So, no, I'm not taking your word for it that someone on the minimum wage isn't "paying their way". Not without some proper tax/spend breakdowns that take account for the demographic skewness.
Apart from in slough the second gen asian immigrants were complaining about their childrens schooling being hindered because the schools were full of eastern european children who didnt speak english as a first language so lessons were slowed down.
A lot of eastern europeans I knew in slough had kids while over here and showed every sign of settling here. I don't have any stats for how many actually stay and make a life here because no one is counted out of the country but my estimate based on those I knew in slough is 30 to 50% so yes we will be covering their retirement too.
The simple fact is we dont seem to have stats on any of this. Being my normal cynical self I suspect that is because if they collected them they would show FoM wasn't such a benefit to the country once services were taken into account. Hence why its always quoted as GDP.
You have a country of 55 million, you add 10 million and its a surprise GDP rises? It doesn't mean GDP per capita rises
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
I take you point but dispute your numbers. Quite a lot of Brits studied in the EU, or worked temporarily in the EU (think of the bands touring, now finding it much harder), young Brits got jobs in ski resorts or Spanish holiday towns, and so on. And many people had second homes in the EU
Probably more like 20% of the country used FoM in some form (is my rough guess)
And for some others it was just the sense of possibility they liked. One day they could retire to the sun in Cyprus; Not any more
And I share their pain to an extent and I wish we could get FoM back in a way that suits Brexiteers and Remainers. A man is allowed to dream
You are having a laugh....20% don't talk bollocks 13 million have not worked abroad or studied abroad. The figure for brits using FoM to move or work in EU countries has always been dwarfed by them moving to america/australia etc and the figures for those is less than 3%
I did pluck the numbef out of my Cornish butt, so it is quite probably wrong, but I still feel 2% is an underestimate
But the point remains the same. A lot of Remainer angst is the loss of FoM. If they could get that back they could be mollified, and we would still be Brexit Britain. And then we could all move on from frigging Brexit, which would be a good thing
To essay a New Brexit Metaphor (oh goody), Brexit is like a choose-your-own-toppings pizza, chosen by the entire country.
Everyone, certainly in the 52%, probably more widely, put their own desired topping on the pizza. The bacon of trade deals. The mushrooms of immigration control. The pineapple of sovereignty. The fish of... fish. The marmite and banana of undermining Ulster-Eire detente.
And quite a bit of the popularity of the resulting pizza was that everyone could see the topping they had asked for, and didn't worry too much about the other stuff that was being put on as well. Two problems though.
The main one is quite how much is on this damn pizza, making it pretty indigestable. The only way to secure all the freedoms that various members of the 52% wanted was to distance ourselves a long way from any sort of EU relationship, beyond the most tokenistic. (Something for something, remember). So we have ended up where we have. (Like you, I kinda assumed that Brexit would be going from just inside the European tent to just outside. Maybe not Single Market, that would be pointless, but a Blue Peter approximation of the same. I was wrong, and I now think I misread the logic beforehand.)
The other is that some of the things on the pizza, some of the things that make it really indigestible for some, are other people's favourite toppings. See Freedom Of Movement.
So we're stuck with this thing on our plate, that very few of us really want to eat. But it's there, and we're still at the "you're not going anywhere until your plate is clear, don't you know there are starving children in Africa" stage of the conversation. The force for some degree of Brapprochment is, I think, irrestistible in the end. But the object is currently immovable.
Right-wing idiots joining the left-wing idiots from yesterday, in tying to make political capital from a tragedy.
Can people no longer think before opening their mouths online?
The guy who built the sub was one of the victims, he wouldn’t have been there if he thought it was unsafe. That said, deep-sea exploration is unfathomably (sic) dangerous, and they all knew there was a chance of catastrophic failure.
I sympathise with the sentiment that these deaths should not be used to make cheap political points. I feel particularly awful about the University of Strathclyde student who went on the trip with his Dad as a Father's Day present and was apparently terrified.
Nevertheless, I think I don't think we can shy away from discussing the fact that this tragedy has resulted in eye watering amounts of public money (largely North American public money) being spent on rescue efforts and the diversion of military resources. To get on a ski slope in most places you have to take out insurance to cover the chances of something going wrong. Doing something this inherently dangerous (I read that the disclaimer mentioned 'death' three times on the first page) needs to have some sort of financial scheme to cover these eventualities. Isn't there a £10k fee for climbing Everest now?
Also, the Titanic is a resting place for about 1500 people. Can we not leave them in peace as we do Military Maritime Graves under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 (although perhaps that doesn't stop tourism)?
Most of that American money was spent anyway. It's not like they hurriedly built some ships and press-ganged some new sailors.
In general terms, militaries usually love having a civilian emergency to deal with. For the men on the ground, it’s a chance to show off their capability, skills, and training; and for the brass hats, it’s a chance to show their value to the politicians who sign the cheques.
It’s a different equation when volunteer rescuers are involved though - ask the mountain rescue folks, what they think of the idiots who climb a mountain in shorts and flip-flops, when it’s almost freezing at the top and fog was forecast.
In USA, in mountain other similar rescue situations, public agencies are (mostly) the core of rescue efforts, aided by (plenty) of volunteers.
And generally agencies such as local sheriff's departments and the like, have the ability to charge those they rescue for costs incurred. Though reckon that 90% plus of the time, they don't.
Though you never hear of the volunteer mountain rescue or lifeboat crews, in the U.K., saying “Screw those stupid people.”
They always go. Though you hear stories of people speaking their minds to the rescued.
Volunteer means what it says. Presumably they don’t sign up in the expectation of rescuing Chris Bonington or Ben Ainslie.
Just imagine you are lifeboatman rescuing someone who took one of those pedal boats 5 miles offshore. Which happens.
I believe a large proportion of RNLI callouts are from boats that have run out of fuel.
Very often contaminated fuel - crud from the bottom of the tank having been stirred up by rough waters.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
I take you point but dispute your numbers. Quite a lot of Brits studied in the EU, or worked temporarily in the EU (think of the bands touring, now finding it much harder), young Brits got jobs in ski resorts or Spanish holiday towns, and so on. And many people had second homes in the EU
Probably more like 20% of the country used FoM in some form (is my rough guess)
And for some others it was just the sense of possibility they liked. One day they could retire to the sun in Cyprus; Not any more
And I share their pain to an extent and I wish we could get FoM back in a way that suits Brexiteers and Remainers. A man is allowed to dream
You are having a laugh....20% don't talk bollocks 13 million have not worked abroad or studied abroad. The figure for brits using FoM to move or work in EU countries has always been dwarfed by them moving to america/australia etc and the figures for those is less than 3%
I did pluck the numbef out of my Cornish butt, so it is quite probably wrong, but I still feel 2% is an underestimate
But the point remains the same. A lot of Remainer angst is the loss of FoM. If they could get that back they could be mollified, and we would still be Brexit Britain. And then we could all move on from frigging Brexit, which would be a good thing
Last stat I saw for people living and working in the eu (including retirees) was approx 700K. 65 million population then 700k is just over 1% so I doubled it to account for people who did work there.....even multiplying by 5 which I would say is the upper bound to account for is only 5%
It's more than 700k in just Spain, Ireland, and France combined. The total figure will be in excess of a million.
wow lets say then 1.5million it is still a fucking small percentage even if I accepted you figures
Ireland doesnt really count as we had a CTA with them before the EU and still have
The EU has not been the most common destination for Brits choosing to emigrate; 33% of all British-born emigrants living outside the UK in 2017 lived in Australia or New Zealand, 28% lived in the US or Canada and 26% in the EU – of which 6% lived in Ireland
Prigozhin has made an astonishing recording. Some excerpts are translated on the tweets below. TL;DR Russia are like rats in a sack and the situation on the front is not good for them.
Prigozhin released today a new interview going over the current state of affairs as well as looking back at the events preceding the start of the "SMO". In this first bit, he explains that the Donbas was plundered by Russians since 2014 and the 2022 war began for reasons very different from those advertised to the public. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672177488535977984?s=20
In continuation of his interview, Prigozhin lists two reasons for the start of the SMO: a) personal ambitions of Shoygu and b) the desire of Russia's ruling clan, who were not satisfied with the Donbas, to appoint Medvedchuk as the president of Ukraine and divide its assets between each other for plundering. According to Prigozhin, denazification and demilitarisation make no sense since Azov wouldn't be exchanged for Medvedchuk otherwise. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672186669762596865?s=20
Prigozhin says that by the time Wagner arrived in Ukraine in March of 2022, it was already impossible to be talking about any victory as the forces were simply not enough, but the military leadership was demanding advances, even of 50-100 meters per day, and the dead were not counted. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672193945604947968?s=20
Prigozhin says again that Rusian lines in Zaporizhzhia and Kherson are falling, and it is only a matter of time until moves similar to Kherson and Kharkiv regroupings take place. Local Russian commanders are forced to provide false reports on their positions so as to not antagonise the high command. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672203268796055554?s=20
I do like Mary Harrington. That article could have gone in a hysterical direction, and instead meandered unexpectedly. I frequently disagree with her conclusions but do like reading her, so thank you. It's like John Gray: I think he's frequently wrong but I like his style.
Would the Remoaners on here finally STFU if we got a reformed Brexit that gave us back Freedom of Movement?
It seems to be the most emotive and profound loss, from Brexit, for a majority of Remainery people (and I share some of the pain, as I say). Perhaps that is the place where Britain could finally reconcile. Brexit Plus. Brexit Plus Freedom of Movement
We'll be like the ERG in reverse - you'll never appease us with titbit after titbit, grudging morsel after dry crumb. We'll always want more. Pure, hard, diamond-tipped Rejoin. Whatever acronym is the 180 degree opposite of BRINO. I want my EU citizenship back.
Blue flagged, rather than brown-watered, beaches, the Euro, Schengen, the banning of offshore tax havens, the whole shebang please. Coming out hasn't worked, let's go back in full-throttle. If you could make that so I'd be very appreciative.
Incidentally, it was very astute of Question Time to stuff last night's audience full of ill-informed gammon, dribbling out the same tired, discredited Johnsonian garbage. (Didn't watch it, of course, but the QT hashtag throws up a damning verdict from the hive mind.) In a few years when admitting voting Leave in polite company will be akin to squatting down and curling one out on your host's lovely dining table, nice people can shudder and say with a contemptuous titter 'No, of course I didn't vote Leave! It was voted for by those ghastly mouth-breathing idiots who look like they've been sculpted out of pork pie meat. What common accents they have. Like on that Question Time, you remember.'
Aaaaand, this sneering drivel is why you will never get to Rejoin. You immediately alienate a Liberal Leaver like me, and make me yearn for even Harder Brexit so you suffer, again and again
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
The basic problem they have is that most people in the UK have an underlying identity and low level patriotism based on being British and their home nation. Even as we become more cosmopolitan, Brits still want to come back to hearing British regional accents and the local customs and food. Meanwhile the really hardcore remainers identify more with Paris and Berlin and have cultural cringe over Skegness.
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
Hardcore Remainers are unremittingly awful people. I can't work out whether they were always awful, nasty, sneering, and mentally inadequate, and we simply didn't notice - or whether Brexit made them that way. Genuine puzzle
The simple fact is some people were better off when we were in the EU, some people were worse off under the EU. Now it is reversed.
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
I take you point but dispute your numbers. Quite a lot of Brits studied in the EU, or worked temporarily in the EU (think of the bands touring, now finding it much harder), young Brits got jobs in ski resorts or Spanish holiday towns, and so on. And many people had second homes in the EU
Probably more like 20% of the country used FoM in some form (is my rough guess)
And for some others it was just the sense of possibility they liked. One day they could retire to the sun in Cyprus; Not any more
And I share their pain to an extent and I wish we could get FoM back in a way that suits Brexiteers and Remainers. A man is allowed to dream
You are having a laugh....20% don't talk bollocks 13 million have not worked abroad or studied abroad. The figure for brits using FoM to move or work in EU countries has always been dwarfed by them moving to america/australia etc and the figures for those is less than 3%
I did pluck the numbef out of my Cornish butt, so it is quite probably wrong, but I still feel 2% is an underestimate
But the point remains the same. A lot of Remainer angst is the loss of FoM. If they could get that back they could be mollified, and we would still be Brexit Britain. And then we could all move on from frigging Brexit, which would be a good thing
To essay a New Brexit Metaphor (oh goody), Brexit is like a choose-your-own-toppings pizza, chosen by the entire country.
Everyone, certainly in the 52%, probably more widely, put their own desired topping on the pizza. The bacon of trade deals. The mushrooms of immigration control. The pineapple of sovereignty. The fish of... fish. The marmite and banana of undermining Ulster-Eire detente.
And quite a bit of the popularity of the resulting pizza was that everyone could see the topping they had asked for, and didn't worry too much about the other stuff that was being put on as well. Two problems though.
The main one is quite how much is on this damn pizza, making it pretty indigestable. The only way to secure all the freedoms that various members of the 52% wanted was to distance ourselves a long way from any sort of EU relationship, beyond the most tokenistic. (Something for something, remember). So we have ended up where we have. (Like you, I kinda assumed that Brexit would be going from just inside the European tent to just outside. Maybe not Single Market, that would be pointless, but a Blue Peter approximation of the same. I was wrong, and I now think I misread the logic beforehand.)
The other is that some of the things on the pizza, some of the things that make it really indigestible for some, are other people's favourite toppings. See Freedom Of Movement.
So we're stuck with this thing on our plate, that very few of us really want to eat. But it's there, and we're still at the "you're not going anywhere until your plate is clear, don't you know there are starving children in Africa" stage of the conversation. The force for some degree of Brapprochment is, I think, irrestistible in the end. But the object is currently immovable.
And there we have it: incontrovertible proof that the 52% put pineapple on their pizzas. They should have been disenfranchised for that.
Comments
I know you are half joking, but you are only half joking. So I say to the other half: HAHAHAHAHAHA, we're never going back in. Tough shit
Labour leader’s summer holiday job revealed by university friend"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-sold-ice-creams-in-illegally-in-france-as-student-z6j5z9x8r
So there is no understanding there that Brits, even when some think it is economically advantageous to be in the EU, don't like lawmaking from Brussells, no passport checks on Romanians and economic policy set in Frankfurt.
I suspect some Remainers know this, which is why they want as much unintegrated immigration as possible, so they have a voting base not attached to traditional British culture.
I just think gearing economic policy to overinflating house prices is harmful and should be reversed, and that saying so is a very long way away from saying the poor should die. We can have these differences of opinions without resorting to outlandish claims that the other side is evil.
To bite the bullet fired by Nigel, I accept that negative equity will be ruinous for some people. But I do not accept that it is something done solely to them by outsiders. When you take out a loan, there's always a risk you won't be able to pay it back and end up suffering for it. There is no such thing as a credit default that isn't in SOME way your own fault, even if the circumstances are bizarrely unlucky. This is because you can't default on a debt unless you actively choose to take on a debt. The minute you sign up for that loan, you should be cognisant of that risk.
Now that's not the same as proving my point. You can still make a valid argument for socialising risk. But to succeed in that argument you do at least have to overcome the question of moral hazard: why should I pay for the risk you took? If the only answer is "because my default will be very painful to me", then I remain unconvinced.
Besides, people know how WW2 ends, but they can still enjoy a movie set in it.
Grid usage is approximately 290,000mwh on average so to fill in for a day when wind isnt blowing would take 725 dinorwigs....good luck with that
Starmer's fucked now.
Bet they were korma-flavoured ice creams as well.
I wonder which child messing with their teacher was responsible for this latest outburst of outrage? “Sir, Robert identifies as a cat now, didn’t you know?”
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/06/18/young-people-are-less-proud-being-english-their-el
(admittedly "English" rather than "British" in this example)
Interesting question as to whether this is a generational shift, or whether they become more British-identifying as they get older (in the same way that people are said to become more right-wing).
(Personally; I love the Britain of rolling landscapes and narrow canals, Herbert Howells and Factory Records. I loathe Westminster and the rest of the British polity. Dunno what that makes me. A tedious remainer crank probably.)
Losing their FoM is actually a really crap argument in my view because the number of Brits that actually ever took advantage of it was less than 2% of the population (not talking people taking a 2 week vacation in france, I mean those that moved to live or work). The 98% that didn't want to take advantage of it still had to pay for it.
The nation's overwhelming gratitude to Hunt for enabling this is going to turn the opinion polls upside down, mark my words.
And you want to talk about snobbery?
He could barely speak but that didn't stop them from fining him on the spot and delivering some choice words as they did so.
They had the crowd with them.
I take you point but dispute your numbers. Quite a lot of Brits studied in the EU, or worked temporarily in the EU (think of the bands touring, now finding it much harder), young Brits got jobs in ski resorts or Spanish holiday towns, and so on. And many people had second homes in the EU
Probably more like 20% of the country used FoM in some form (is my rough guess)
And for some others it was just the sense of possibility they liked. One day they could retire to the sun in Cyprus; Not any more
And I share their pain to an extent and I wish we could get FoM back in a way that suits Brexiteers and Remainers. A man is allowed to dream
I’m proud to be a hard-core Remainer, and as far as I’m concerned Jack’s as good as his master.
There aren't even vaguely enough places for pumped storage in the UK, compared to the size of the demand on the grid, to do storage on a sufficient scale.
Incidentally, it would cost about the same to build the same capacity as Dinorwig out of trailers full of batteries https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/megapack
A Megapack is now about $900k dollars. So $300K per MWh.
Dinorwig is 9.1 GWh - 9100 x 300k = $2.7 billion
Dinorwig cost 485 million pounds between 1977 and 1984
Which is 2-4 billion today (big difference between 1977 and 1984. Good luck getting it done for that, again.
with the exchange rate, that's about $2.5-5 billion dollars.
Perhaps we only became awful, nasty, sneering and mentally inadequate, after we were constantly told by awful, nasty, sneering and mentally inadequate Leavers, "you lost, suck it up losers".
But the point remains the same. A lot of Remainer angst is the loss of FoM. If they could get that back they could be mollified, and we would still be Brexit Britain. And then we could all move on from frigging Brexit, which would be a good thing
Noel, Marquis de Maynes, given life....
I would rather have 500,000 immigrants a year that all earn 30k plus than 100,000 immigrants from the eu earning min wage
The former gives us enough tax to expand services for the increased population
Once she was in the helicopter, the Maltese crew asked her: "Are you German?"
"No, English," she replied.
"Ah, we rescue English for free. We charge the Germans!"
The legacy of WW2 lives on...
I don't actually believe that Truss's policies were that risky, or Sunak's policies that free of risk, but as a summary it'll do.
If someone comes here from abroad, we've not paid for their schooling, we're not paying for their retirement. On average they will be younger and healthier than the average person born here. How much are they costing the exchequer?
There are some areas of expenditure where they apply to immigrants because everybody benefits from them e.g. defence and policing. And some where they apply less to immigrants, like state pensions, health and social care. And others where it's really dubious whether you should apply it to them, such as debt interest payments (is new immigrant really responsible for UK government loans undertaken years before that immigrant ever came here?)
Of course, immigrants will pay PAYE/NI/VAT/Fuel duty/corporation tax/business rates in the normal way in most cases.
So, no, I'm not taking your word for it that someone on the minimum wage isn't "paying their way". Not without some proper tax/spend breakdowns that take account for the demographic skewness.
The culture is against it.
Britain has lagged peer economies basically forever on this metric.
I don’t really know why that is.
But I wonder if it stems back to Victorian times when frankly it was a more profitable use of capital to invest in Uruguayan mines and Californian railway, and so a weird “tradition” developed in which the home country was just left to fend for itself.
That worked only so long as Britain maintained industrial technology advantage but ever since 1860 it’s been a slow decline, and definitively so since (pick your date) 1918, 1925, or 1979.
Now where did I leave it....?
The total figure will be in excess of a million.
> Keir "Vanilla" Starmer
> Keir "Rocky Road" Starmer
> Keir "Rainbow Sherbet" Starmer
> Keir "Banana Nut" Starmer
> Keir "Fudge Ripple" Starmer
> Keir "Butterscotch" Starmer
> Keir "Sticky Toffee" Starmer
> Keir "Chocolate Marshmallow" Starmer
> Keir "Pineapple Pizza" Starmer
> Keir "Passionfruit" Starmer
> Keir "Tutti Fruiti" Starmer
Edit: See, e.g. https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/has-brexit-affected-the-uk-s-medical-workforce
"The findings suggest that stagnation in the number of EU doctors in these specialties has exacerbated existing shortages in areas where the NHS has not been able to find enough qualified staff elsewhere. While deeper research into drivers of migration is needed, it appears likely that the decision to leave the EU in 2016 plays a role."
A lot of eastern europeans I knew in slough had kids while over here and showed every sign of settling here. I don't have any stats for how many actually stay and make a life here because no one is counted out of the country but my estimate based on those I knew in slough is 30 to 50% so yes we will be covering their retirement too.
The simple fact is we dont seem to have stats on any of this. Being my normal cynical self I suspect that is because if they collected them they would show FoM wasn't such a benefit to the country once services were taken into account. Hence why its always quoted as GDP.
You have a country of 55 million, you add 10 million and its a surprise GDP rises? It doesn't mean GDP per capita rises
Adults have ceded all moral judgement
Mary Harrington"
https://unherd.com/2023/06/should-we-let-the-kids-be-cats/
Everyone, certainly in the 52%, probably more widely, put their own desired topping on the pizza. The bacon of trade deals. The mushrooms of immigration control. The pineapple of sovereignty. The fish of... fish. The marmite and banana of undermining Ulster-Eire detente.
And quite a bit of the popularity of the resulting pizza was that everyone could see the topping they had asked for, and didn't worry too much about the other stuff that was being put on as well. Two problems though.
The main one is quite how much is on this damn pizza, making it pretty indigestable. The only way to secure all the freedoms that various members of the 52% wanted was to distance ourselves a long way from any sort of EU relationship, beyond the most tokenistic. (Something for something, remember). So we have ended up where we have. (Like you, I kinda assumed that Brexit would be going from just inside the European tent to just outside. Maybe not Single Market, that would be pointless, but a Blue Peter approximation of the same. I was wrong, and I now think I misread the logic beforehand.)
The other is that some of the things on the pizza, some of the things that make it really indigestible for some, are other people's favourite toppings. See Freedom Of Movement.
So we're stuck with this thing on our plate, that very few of us really want to eat. But it's there, and we're still at the "you're not going anywhere until your plate is clear, don't you know there are starving children in Africa" stage of the conversation. The force for some degree of Brapprochment is, I think, irrestistible in the end. But the object is currently immovable.
Though note that IIRC higher percentage of 3rd-class WOMEN were saved than than of 1st-class men.
Among later were top personal aide to the then-POTUS and the patriarch of Guggenheims.
Here is where I get mine
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/livingabroad/april2018#:~:text=1.-,Main points,France or Germany in 2017.
784,900 British citizens live in the EU
Ireland doesnt really count as we had a CTA with them before the EU and still have
The EU has not been the most common destination for Brits choosing to emigrate; 33% of all British-born emigrants living outside the UK in 2017 lived in Australia or New Zealand, 28% lived in the US or Canada and 26% in the EU – of which 6% lived in Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Softee
Prigozhin released today a new interview going over the current state of affairs as well as looking back at the events preceding the start of the "SMO". In this first bit, he explains that the Donbas was plundered by Russians since 2014 and the 2022 war began for reasons very different from those advertised to the public.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672177488535977984?s=20
In continuation of his interview, Prigozhin lists two reasons for the start of the SMO: a) personal ambitions of Shoygu and b) the desire of Russia's ruling clan, who were not satisfied with the Donbas, to appoint Medvedchuk as the president of Ukraine and divide its assets between each other for plundering. According to Prigozhin, denazification and demilitarisation make no sense since Azov wouldn't be exchanged for Medvedchuk otherwise.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672186669762596865?s=20
Prigozhin says that by the time Wagner arrived in Ukraine in March of 2022, it was already impossible to be talking about any victory as the forces were simply not enough, but the military leadership was demanding advances, even of 50-100 meters per day, and the dead were not counted.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672193945604947968?s=20
Prigozhin says again that Rusian lines in Zaporizhzhia and Kherson are falling, and it is only a matter of time until moves similar to Kherson and Kharkiv regroupings take place. Local Russian commanders are forced to provide false reports on their positions so as to not antagonise the high command.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672203268796055554?s=20