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Let’s not forget BoJo’s ratings as PM – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,125
edited June 2023 in General
Let’s not forget BoJo’s ratings as PM – politicalbetting.com

Johnson was an exceptionally unpopular leader when he departed office. Unpopularity equivalent to post-poll tax Thatcher, and May after her deal failed. Worse then everyone in between – Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron. Only Truss (slightly) worse among PMs since 1979 (MORI data) pic.twitter.com/wE3uB9Hwuo

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,770
    First
  • Interesting that Major was still (relatively) popular. Blair might have won even bigglier against another Tory leader.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    edited June 2023
    All Johnsonites - the guy who want's to inherit his mantle has appeared; which manifesto will look more like the Conservative manifesto from 2019:

    https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1668208550269550592?s=46&t=16Vx1hkPdKeRguANzrOtZQ&fbclid=IwAR34dyvOxNNi1uHeyroKkpfXlzxji8qLYL6qlVWauI0KY4RrbcpEso3hIbQ

    Because comparing your policy positions to that of Boris Johnson's right now is a smart thing, politically, actually....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Root, disagree. People should remember what happens when you choose a charismatic incompetent to be leader.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,048
    Just heard a theory about this 29 year old new Lord. Probably bollocks, but does anybody here think she looks like a certain former PM?
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    I'm glad that all the "feminists" who love to say they're protecting women by making arguments about limiting individual rights to bodily autonomy are using their platforms to promote this story today... Wait, they aren't? Oh...

    https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1667968579474432000?s=20
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    CatMan said:

    Just heard a theory about this 29 year old new Lord. Probably bollocks, but does anybody here think she looks like a certain former PM?

    More than a hint of Palmerston about her I admit.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,659

    Mr. Root, disagree. People should remember what happens when you choose a charismatic incompetent to be leader.

    That isn't for now , its for later.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
  • Interesting that Major was still (relatively) popular. Blair might have won even bigglier against another Tory leader.

    Well Redwood had a go, of course. And, yes, I've little doubt he'd have lost bigglier.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,121
  • 148grss said:

    I'm glad that all the "feminists" who love to say they're protecting women by making arguments about limiting individual rights to bodily autonomy are using their platforms to promote this story today... Wait, they aren't? Oh...

    https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1667968579474432000?s=20

    It seems many are, so stop tilting at windmills.

    But yes, its absolutely disgusting that she's being prosecuted and its not remotely in the public interest. Glad the NHS, feminists, MPs and others are saying so.

    Scans and regular pre-natal treatments that she should have had etc were suspended during the pandemic and to have someone prosecuted like this is an absolute disgrace. No equivocation, it is unacceptable and ridiculous.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,125
    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    It's like saying a marathon runner who entered a marathon, but broke both legs before the run even started is 'running a marathon'. Perhaps you can also twist yourself into some mental pretzel to justify Mordaunt saying that the UK has no veto on Turkey joining?
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    148grss said:

    I'm glad that all the "feminists" who love to say they're protecting women by making arguments about limiting individual rights to bodily autonomy are using their platforms to promote this story today... Wait, they aren't? Oh...

    https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1667968579474432000?s=20

    It seems many are, so stop tilting at windmills.

    But yes, its absolutely disgusting that she's being prosecuted and its not remotely in the public interest. Glad the NHS, feminists, MPs and others are saying so.

    Scans and regular pre-natal treatments that she should have had etc were suspended during the pandemic and to have someone prosecuted like this is an absolute disgrace. No equivocation, it is unacceptable and ridiculous.
    How many weeks was she? 11 weeks is one thing, 39 quite another.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,762

    We should forget Boris full stop.

    One of the few contexts where the American period seems to fit better.
  • WillG said:

    148grss said:

    I'm glad that all the "feminists" who love to say they're protecting women by making arguments about limiting individual rights to bodily autonomy are using their platforms to promote this story today... Wait, they aren't? Oh...

    https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1667968579474432000?s=20

    It seems many are, so stop tilting at windmills.

    But yes, its absolutely disgusting that she's being prosecuted and its not remotely in the public interest. Glad the NHS, feminists, MPs and others are saying so.

    Scans and regular pre-natal treatments that she should have had etc were suspended during the pandemic and to have someone prosecuted like this is an absolute disgrace. No equivocation, it is unacceptable and ridiculous.
    How many weeks was she? 11 weeks is one thing, 39 quite another.
    From the story she hadn't had a pre-natal scan thanks to the pandemic, so that wasn't known at the time.

    Afterwards it turned out she was 28 weeks, but considering the NHS hadn't given her a scan due to lockdown, I fail to see how that is a remotely criminal concern.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    FPT:
    Nigelb said:

    Already on manoeuvres, while HMS Mordaunt is still on routine patrol.

    Gillian Keegan to appeal to the Tory Right and present herself as heir to Thatcher
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1668205993929457664

    Keegan has seriously taken her eye off the ball on RSE in schools - and this won’t help:

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/27/gillian-keegan-education-lgbtq-trans/
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,821
    edited June 2023
    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    It's like saying a marathon runner who entered a marathon, but broke both legs before the run even started is 'running a marathon'. Perhaps you can also twist yourself into some mental pretzel to justify Mordaunt saying that the UK has no veto on Turkey joining?
    Nice analogy except that Turkey has already started the marathon, the EU themselves say as much which is why they say that joining the EU is not an overnight process and list Turkey under their own "joining the EU" webpage and list their progress through the joining process.

    Finishing the marathon and starting the marathon are two very different things. If it was finished, then the tense to use would be to say that Turkey has joined the EU, but its not finished, but it has begun, so joining is the only grammatically correct language to use.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,224

    We should forget Boris full stop.

    My view on Boris changes often - from sympathy, to amusement, to annoyance, to disappointment - a lot of the latter. However, I do find it rather silly how a hardcore of our brave PB-Tories want to forget someone who actually won a General Election, in favour of someone whose only electoral test as party leader saw the party perform worse than even their expectations management lead everyone to believe they would. The Rishi train, with Hunt shovelling the coal, is heading off a precipice. I am not sure that Boris is the man to apply the brake, but frankly it would be nice if someone did.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,121
    Religion in Uxbridge & South Ruislip.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/customprofiles/build/

    Christian 43.0%
    Muslim 12.5%
    Hindu 8.6%
    Sikh 4.1%
    Buddhist 0.9%
    Jewish 0.2%
    Others 0.7%
    No religion 23.7%
    Not answered 6.2%
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,480
    DougSeal said:

    CatMan said:

    Just heard a theory about this 29 year old new Lord. Probably bollocks, but does anybody here think she looks like a certain former PM?

    More than a hint of Palmerston about her I admit.
    I thought more of a Wilsonian mien.

  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    148grss said:

    All Johnsonites - the guy who want's to inherit his mantle has appeared; which manifesto will look more like the Conservative manifesto from 2019:

    https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1668208550269550592?s=46&t=16Vx1hkPdKeRguANzrOtZQ&fbclid=IwAR34dyvOxNNi1uHeyroKkpfXlzxji8qLYL6qlVWauI0KY4RrbcpEso3hIbQ

    Because comparing your policy positions to that of Boris Johnson's right now is a smart thing, politically, actually....

    Interesting site. It's obvious SKS is coming close to crossing the line between having to keep the Leaver/Lefties on board and the racist hang 'em flog 'em disillusioned Tories.

    I for one am getting a little worried about his values. Whatever you thought of Blair/Brown I always felt their instincts were mine. I'm no longer sure that's the case with Starmer
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,480
    edited June 2023

    We should forget Boris full stop.

    My view on Boris changes often - from sympathy, to amusement, to annoyance, to disappointment - a lot of the latter. However, I do find it rather silly how a hardcore of our brave PB-Tories want to forget someone who actually won a General Election, in favour of someone whose only electoral test as party leader saw the party perform worse than even their expectations management lead everyone to believe they would. The Rishi train, with Hunt shovelling the coal, is heading off a precipice. I am not sure that Boris is the man to apply the brake, but frankly it would be nice if someone did.
    Frankly, another leader, whoever it might be, and policy U-turn, whatever form that might take, would have no effect at all in averting the electoral truck of doom heading for the party.

    Except for Boris, who would cause an implosion pre-election.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,067

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    Already on manoeuvres, while HMS Mordaunt is still on routine patrol.

    Gillian Keegan to appeal to the Tory Right and present herself as heir to Thatcher
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1668205993929457664

    Keegan has seriously taken her eye off the ball on RSE in schools - and this won’t help:

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/27/gillian-keegan-education-lgbtq-trans/
    Forget RSE, Keegan is failing to get enough teachers in front of classes. That really is the one job she has to get right.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,285
    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    It's like saying a marathon runner who entered a marathon, but broke both legs before the run even started is 'running a marathon'. Perhaps you can also twist yourself into some mental pretzel to justify Mordaunt saying that the UK has no veto on Turkey joining?
    Mordaunt’s underlying point was it was the only chance the British people to vote directly against being part of a political union with Turkey because the UK government was one of the most supportive and the UK has always been keenest on expansion so the government wouldn’t use the veto even if the people wanted them to.

    As for thinking that the idea Turkey could ever join is a sign of mental illness, what does it say about the organisation that gave Turkey
    candidate status?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,744
    It’s time for Rishi to become his own man and move out from the shadow of his former boss.

    He has called him out this morning. He should keep doing so. He needs to drum in the message that Boris Johnson is yesterdays news, and that if anyone else feels aggrieved at his ‘treatment’ they should quit parliament too.

    There’s nothing in it for Sunak to keep walking this awkward tightrope between both wings of the party. It would take a miracle to win the next election anyway, he might as well set down a marker and rid the party of Boris’ influence. Boris had no trouble in doing so with the pro-EU wing back in 2019.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    Already on manoeuvres, while HMS Mordaunt is still on routine patrol.

    Gillian Keegan to appeal to the Tory Right and present herself as heir to Thatcher
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1668205993929457664

    Keegan has seriously taken her eye off the ball on RSE in schools - and this won’t help:

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/27/gillian-keegan-education-lgbtq-trans/
    Like Mordaunt she is vulnerable to the doctrinaire anti-wokists who will be the chief selectorate for the next Tory leader.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    I'm glad that all the "feminists" who love to say they're protecting women by making arguments about limiting individual rights to bodily autonomy are using their platforms to promote this story today... Wait, they aren't? Oh...

    https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1667968579474432000?s=20

    It seems many are, so stop tilting at windmills.

    But yes, its absolutely disgusting that she's being prosecuted and its not remotely in the public interest. Glad the NHS, feminists, MPs and others are saying so.

    Scans and regular pre-natal treatments that she should have had etc were suspended during the pandemic and to have someone prosecuted like this is an absolute disgrace. No equivocation, it is unacceptable and ridiculous.
    I can see no leveraging of the massive social platforms of any of the GC crowd - JK Rowling, Maya Forstater, Helen Joyce, Joanna Cherry etc. etc. - nothing. Not even a side mention. They're all online, tweeting about the debate between two amendments on how sex should be defined in law, but nothing about how the law currently oppresses women in reality.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    It's like saying a marathon runner who entered a marathon, but broke both legs before the run even started is 'running a marathon'. Perhaps you can also twist yourself into some mental pretzel to justify Mordaunt saying that the UK has no veto on Turkey joining?
    Golly a Penny Mordaunt really has you scared shirtless doesn't it? Chill.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,574

    WillG said:

    148grss said:

    I'm glad that all the "feminists" who love to say they're protecting women by making arguments about limiting individual rights to bodily autonomy are using their platforms to promote this story today... Wait, they aren't? Oh...

    https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1667968579474432000?s=20

    It seems many are, so stop tilting at windmills.

    But yes, its absolutely disgusting that she's being prosecuted and its not remotely in the public interest. Glad the NHS, feminists, MPs and others are saying so.

    Scans and regular pre-natal treatments that she should have had etc were suspended during the pandemic and to have someone prosecuted like this is an absolute disgrace. No equivocation, it is unacceptable and ridiculous.
    How many weeks was she? 11 weeks is one thing, 39 quite another.
    From the story she hadn't had a pre-natal scan thanks to the pandemic, so that wasn't known at the time.

    Afterwards it turned out she was 28 weeks, but considering the NHS hadn't given her a scan due to lockdown, I fail to see how that is a remotely criminal concern.
    People have been sent to prison, IIRC, for *thinking* they were smuggling a particular drug. Which they weren't.

    There was a case of trawler skipper who thought he was moving heroin - it turned out to be weed, I think - but sentenced as if he had smuggled smack...
  • WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    Indeed.

    And it was UK policy at the time to have Turkey join the EU too. And Mordaunt was entirely correct that it was the voters chance to have a say on the matter, she never said the UK would not get a say on Turkey joining the EU she said British voters would not get a say which is correct.

    Parliament could and would vote to approve Turkish membership without asking the British public, that was governmental policy at the time.

    To call Mordaunt a liar is to lie yourself and misrepresent what she said. She was explicit on the difference.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,793
    Andy_JS said:

    Religion in Uxbridge & South Ruislip.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/customprofiles/build/

    Christian 43.0%
    Muslim 12.5%
    Hindu 8.6%
    Sikh 4.1%
    Buddhist 0.9%
    Jewish 0.2%
    Others 0.7%
    No religion 23.7%
    Not answered 6.2%

    pretty typical of UK then
  • WillG said:

    148grss said:

    I'm glad that all the "feminists" who love to say they're protecting women by making arguments about limiting individual rights to bodily autonomy are using their platforms to promote this story today... Wait, they aren't? Oh...

    https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1667968579474432000?s=20

    It seems many are, so stop tilting at windmills.

    But yes, its absolutely disgusting that she's being prosecuted and its not remotely in the public interest. Glad the NHS, feminists, MPs and others are saying so.

    Scans and regular pre-natal treatments that she should have had etc were suspended during the pandemic and to have someone prosecuted like this is an absolute disgrace. No equivocation, it is unacceptable and ridiculous.
    How many weeks was she? 11 weeks is one thing, 39 quite another.
    From the story she hadn't had a pre-natal scan thanks to the pandemic, so that wasn't known at the time.

    Afterwards it turned out she was 28 weeks, but considering the NHS hadn't given her a scan due to lockdown, I fail to see how that is a remotely criminal concern.
    People have been sent to prison, IIRC, for *thinking* they were smuggling a particular drug. Which they weren't.

    There was a case of trawler skipper who thought he was moving heroin - it turned out to be weed, I think - but sentenced as if he had smuggled smack...
    Indeed, so by that logic if she *thought* she was nine weeks pregnant then considering the NHS had not given her a scan, she should not have committed any crime.

    And even if a crime has been technically committed, it fails the public interest test to take this to court.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    CatMan said:

    Just heard a theory about this 29 year old new Lord. Probably bollocks, but does anybody here think she looks like a certain former PM?

    Any details about this youthful female Lord? Like her name?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,638
    edited June 2023

    WillG said:

    148grss said:

    I'm glad that all the "feminists" who love to say they're protecting women by making arguments about limiting individual rights to bodily autonomy are using their platforms to promote this story today... Wait, they aren't? Oh...

    https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1667968579474432000?s=20

    It seems many are, so stop tilting at windmills.

    But yes, its absolutely disgusting that she's being prosecuted and its not remotely in the public interest. Glad the NHS, feminists, MPs and others are saying so.

    Scans and regular pre-natal treatments that she should have had etc were suspended during the pandemic and to have someone prosecuted like this is an absolute disgrace. No equivocation, it is unacceptable and ridiculous.
    How many weeks was she? 11 weeks is one thing, 39 quite another.
    From the story she hadn't had a pre-natal scan thanks to the pandemic, so that wasn't known at the time.

    Afterwards it turned out she was 28 weeks, but considering the NHS hadn't given her a scan due to lockdown, I fail to see how that is a remotely criminal concern.
    People have been sent to prison, IIRC, for *thinking* they were smuggling a particular drug. Which they weren't.

    There was a case of trawler skipper who thought he was moving heroin - it turned out to be weed, I think - but sentenced as if he had smuggled smack...
    THat's the other way round. The correct comparison would be if the skipper was transporting what he thought was icing sugar and it turned out to be rather livelier.

    Edit: I recently read of quacks flogging radium medicines in the C20 who were had up in court for selling dangerous drugs. Some turned out to have zero Ra226 etc in them, so they were done for fraudulent labelling instead ... though I think that might have been in the USA.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,200
    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Religion in Uxbridge & South Ruislip.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/customprofiles/build/

    Christian 43.0%
    Muslim 12.5%
    Hindu 8.6%
    Sikh 4.1%
    Buddhist 0.9%
    Jewish 0.2%
    Others 0.7%
    No religion 23.7%
    Not answered 6.2%

    pretty typical of UK then
    Not at all actually. Much higher Muslim, Hindu and Sikh. Much, much lower no religion. And a bit lower Christian too.

    image
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,307
    Andy_JS said:

    Religion in Uxbridge & South Ruislip.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/customprofiles/build/

    Christian 43.0%
    Muslim 12.5%
    Hindu 8.6%
    Sikh 4.1%
    Buddhist 0.9%
    Jewish 0.2%
    Others 0.7%
    No religion 23.7%
    Not answered 6.2%

    That’s interesting.

    The Christian vs none split seems higher than expected at 43%. More Christians than average, or people of little religion likely to answer the question differently in a more diverse area?

    Have we heard of any high-profile names from the local Muslim or Hindu communities, suggested as candidates for the major parties? IIRC there’s some correlation between candidates from religious minorities, and votes for them among that community.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    Already on manoeuvres, while HMS Mordaunt is still on routine patrol.

    Gillian Keegan to appeal to the Tory Right and present herself as heir to Thatcher
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1668205993929457664

    Keegan has seriously taken her eye off the ball on RSE in schools - and this won’t help:

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/27/gillian-keegan-education-lgbtq-trans/
    Forget RSE, Keegan is failing to get enough teachers in front of classes. That really is the one job she has to get right.
    The loons on the tory right don't give flying one about enough teachers. They care about willies, hating foreigners and bringing back the birch.
  • WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
  • On topic, all true but it won't stop the claim being made loudly and often, if Sunak loses, that Johnson wouldn't and won bigly in 2019.

    That ignores the farce of much of his Premiership, and the reality that the joke had long since stopped being funny. But many will buy into the lie.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,574

    WillG said:

    148grss said:

    I'm glad that all the "feminists" who love to say they're protecting women by making arguments about limiting individual rights to bodily autonomy are using their platforms to promote this story today... Wait, they aren't? Oh...

    https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1667968579474432000?s=20

    It seems many are, so stop tilting at windmills.

    But yes, its absolutely disgusting that she's being prosecuted and its not remotely in the public interest. Glad the NHS, feminists, MPs and others are saying so.

    Scans and regular pre-natal treatments that she should have had etc were suspended during the pandemic and to have someone prosecuted like this is an absolute disgrace. No equivocation, it is unacceptable and ridiculous.
    How many weeks was she? 11 weeks is one thing, 39 quite another.
    From the story she hadn't had a pre-natal scan thanks to the pandemic, so that wasn't known at the time.

    Afterwards it turned out she was 28 weeks, but considering the NHS hadn't given her a scan due to lockdown, I fail to see how that is a remotely criminal concern.
    People have been sent to prison, IIRC, for *thinking* they were smuggling a particular drug. Which they weren't.

    There was a case of trawler skipper who thought he was moving heroin - it turned out to be weed, I think - but sentenced as if he had smuggled smack...
    Indeed, so by that logic if she *thought* she was nine weeks pregnant then considering the NHS had not given her a scan, she should not have committed any crime.

    And even if a crime has been technically committed, it fails the public interest test to take this to court.
    Logic !- Law

    I agree that the test for a persecution like this should be very very very high. And haven't seen the evidence that it did reach such a level.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    Roger said:

    148grss said:

    All Johnsonites - the guy who want's to inherit his mantle has appeared; which manifesto will look more like the Conservative manifesto from 2019:

    https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1668208550269550592?s=46&t=16Vx1hkPdKeRguANzrOtZQ&fbclid=IwAR34dyvOxNNi1uHeyroKkpfXlzxji8qLYL6qlVWauI0KY4RrbcpEso3hIbQ

    Because comparing your policy positions to that of Boris Johnson's right now is a smart thing, politically, actually....

    Interesting site. It's obvious SKS is coming close to crossing the line between having to keep the Leaver/Lefties on board and the racist hang 'em flog 'em disillusioned Tories.

    I for one am getting a little worried about his values. Whatever you thought of Blair/Brown I always felt their instincts were mine. I'm no longer sure that's the case with Starmer
    Omg. Finally even Roger can see Starmer for what he is.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,638
    Roger said:

    CatMan said:

    Just heard a theory about this 29 year old new Lord. Probably bollocks, but does anybody here think she looks like a certain former PM?

    Any details about this youthful female Lord? Like her name?
    Charlotte Owen, I believe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Owen
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,285

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    Turkey officially had candidate status, so it was in a different position to other countries that had applied unilaterally and been knocked back, like Georgia.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    edited June 2023

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Ms Mordaunt asserted that Turkey was 'likely' to be an EU member by 2024 and there was nothing - absolutely nothing - that Britain could do to prevent it.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Good to know. I might submit an application to enter next season's NFL draft which apparently means I am "joining" the league.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,480

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    Already on manoeuvres, while HMS Mordaunt is still on routine patrol.

    Gillian Keegan to appeal to the Tory Right and present herself as heir to Thatcher
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1668205993929457664

    Keegan has seriously taken her eye off the ball on RSE in schools - and this won’t help:

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/27/gillian-keegan-education-lgbtq-trans/
    What is there to object to in the statements at that link ?
  • WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    Turkey officially had candidate status, so it was in a different position to other countries that had applied unilaterally and been knocked back, like Georgia.
    Indeed, Turkey hadn't just applied, their application had been accepted by the EU to begin the joining process, which required a vote within the EU.

    Same as happened last year when the EU Parliament overwhelming voted to accept Ukraine's candidate status, to great and appropriate fanfare.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,480
    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Good to know. I might submit an application to enter next season's NFL draft which apparently means I am "joining" the league.
    Quarterback, or special teams ?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    CatMan said:

    Just heard a theory about this 29 year old new Lord. Probably bollocks, but does anybody here think she looks like a certain former PM?

    Any details about this youthful female Lord? Like her name?
    Charlotte Owen, I believe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Owen
    Thank you. I see she worked in the Whips office.....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,571
    First proper rain in Ilford for a good few weeks!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,285
    Margaret Hodge is being cancelled for saying that had she actually lived in Barking, she would have felt “fear” from seeing “different” neighbours.

    https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1668221551718662147
  • DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Good to know. I might submit an application to enter next season's NFL draft which apparently means I am "joining" the league.
    If the NFL votes to accept you into the draft as the EU voted to accept Turkey and Ukraine into the accession process, then yes you are.

    If the NFL rejects or ignores your application as the EU have with Georgia, then no you're not.

    Takes two to tango. The EU voted to begin Turkey's joining process democratically. Voted, past tense. 👍
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Roger said:

    148grss said:

    All Johnsonites - the guy who want's to inherit his mantle has appeared; which manifesto will look more like the Conservative manifesto from 2019:

    https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1668208550269550592?s=46&t=16Vx1hkPdKeRguANzrOtZQ&fbclid=IwAR34dyvOxNNi1uHeyroKkpfXlzxji8qLYL6qlVWauI0KY4RrbcpEso3hIbQ

    Because comparing your policy positions to that of Boris Johnson's right now is a smart thing, politically, actually....

    Interesting site. It's obvious SKS is coming close to crossing the line between having to keep the Leaver/Lefties on board and the racist hang 'em flog 'em disillusioned Tories.

    I for one am getting a little worried about his values. Whatever you thought of Blair/Brown I always felt their instincts were mine. I'm no longer sure that's the case with Starmer
    I don't know if Starmer really believes anything other than the importance of institutions - he is a lawyer who seems to see everything through the prism of respecting the office / station / institution of things and anything that those institutions deem "unserious" or "disrespectful" he will too. So all of his positions are about how to make people feel that institutions are serious again (after the "unseriousness" of Johnson, Truss and Corbyn) and his benchmark for seriousness is whatever the consensus of the national papers is. That's why he talked to Mumsnet activists about trans people, but not trans charities. It's why he made arguments to win the leadership and later reneged on them, because the left wing labour base aren't "serious" people in political discourse in this country - it's fine to lie to them but you can't ever suggest that the rich white people who claim working class white people are upset that non-white people have rights may be racist. It's why renationalisation and even further price caps have been taken off the table despite the fact that a lot of inflation seems to actually be just price gouging and he's starting to sound more like Osbourne on the economy, because Osbournomics is what "sensible" people believe in.

    The environment isn't "serious" and the activists aren't "respectful", so who cares if you slash your proposed investment into green energy by 70-80%. But you have to say the Met is salvageable, because you have to respect the police. You have to say that maybe Gillick competence is bad, because that's what lots of serious journalists say, and they couldn't be wrong. You have to say you'd use the nuclear weapons and kill a load of innocent people for the decisions made by the leaders of their state in any situation that involves nuclear weapons - because the serious people say that mutual mass destruction is the only serious position to take.

    If anything, Starmer has a deeply conservative strain of preservation of institutions and tradition, many of which should be challenged and need to be challenged.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Ghedebrav said:

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    Already on manoeuvres, while HMS Mordaunt is still on routine patrol.

    Gillian Keegan to appeal to the Tory Right and present herself as heir to Thatcher
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1668205993929457664

    Keegan has seriously taken her eye off the ball on RSE in schools - and this won’t help:

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/27/gillian-keegan-education-lgbtq-trans/
    Like Mordaunt she is vulnerable to the doctrinaire anti-wokists who will be the chief selectorate for the next Tory leader.
    Her Brexit-y yet socially progressive persona plays well on pb.com but it's hard to see where her wider constituency is beyond tory cis-males who would like to fuck her but haven't been able to get it up since Italia '90.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,285

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Ms Mordaunt asserted that Turkey was 'likely' to be an EU member by 2024 and there was nothing - absolutely nothing - that Britain could do to prevent it.
    Merkel thought nothing about casually dismissing Turkey's prospects for membership when it became an issue in the German general election. Cameron wasn't able to do the same because the UK didn't have the same status in the EU hierarchy.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    Margaret Hodge is being cancelled for saying that had she actually lived in Barking, she would have felt “fear” from seeing “different” neighbours.

    https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1668221551718662147

    Is she being cancelled, or are people pointing out the irony of her calling other people racist when she herself has said lots of racist things (and benefited financially from investments in Apartheid South Africa during the BDS movement)?

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1668195376971628544?s=20
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,762
    Net popularity amongst the public:
    Charles III: +19
    Holly Willoughby: -12
    Keir Starmer: -14
    Rishi Sunak: -26
    Phillip Schofield: -39
    Xi Jinping: -40
    Boris Johnson: -45
    Prince Andrew: -71
    Vladimir Putin: -82
  • WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Ms Mordaunt asserted that Turkey was 'likely' to be an EU member by 2024 and there was nothing - absolutely nothing - that Britain could do to prevent it.
    Which was a reasonable judgement at the time, given this was before the 2016 Turkish coup which kiboshed further progress on Turkey's accession, and at the time both Angela Merkel and David Cameron were pushing hard for further progress on Turkey's accession.

    At the time I knew an ardent pro-Remain Europhile (wanted us in the Single Currency too) who bought property in Istanbul as an investment as he expected that its value would jump up once Turkish accession was complete.

    Listen to what she actually said, she said there was nothing that the British voters would be able to do about it. She was right. There would have been no referendum, even if British voters opposed accession Parliament could unilaterally vote it through as Parliament did with the Lisbon Treaty.

    The UK voters never got a say on the Lisbon Treaty. The fact Parliament did, does not mean the voters did.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,571
    IanB2 said:

    Net popularity amongst the public:
    Charles III: +19
    Holly Willoughby: -12
    Keir Starmer: -14
    Rishi Sunak: -26
    Phillip Schofield: -39
    Xi Jinping: -40
    Boris Johnson: -45
    Prince Andrew: -71
    Vladimir Putin: -82

    Sample biased towards Monarchists!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,638
    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    Already on manoeuvres, while HMS Mordaunt is still on routine patrol.

    Gillian Keegan to appeal to the Tory Right and present herself as heir to Thatcher
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1668205993929457664

    Keegan has seriously taken her eye off the ball on RSE in schools - and this won’t help:

    https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/27/gillian-keegan-education-lgbtq-trans/
    Like Mordaunt she is vulnerable to the doctrinaire anti-wokists who will be the chief selectorate for the next Tory leader.
    Her Brexit-y yet socially progressive persona plays well on pb.com but it's hard to see where her wider constituency is beyond tory cis-males who would like to fuck her but haven't been able to get it up since Italia '90.
    I did wonder whether her wearing the Submarine Service dolphins will play well in the hinterlands of Pompey and Guz, or the reverse. Perhaps the former as they were legitimate pressies.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,743

    We should forget Boris full stop.

    My view on Boris changes often - from sympathy, to amusement, to annoyance, to disappointment - a lot of the latter. However, I do find it rather silly how a hardcore of our brave PB-Tories want to forget someone who actually won a General Election, in favour of someone whose only electoral test as party leader saw the party perform worse than even their expectations management lead everyone to believe they would. The Rishi train, with Hunt shovelling the coal, is heading off a precipice. I am not sure that Boris is the man to apply the brake, but frankly it would be nice if someone did.
    He did win an election. My post from shortly afterwards explains why this might have been.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/2603292#Comment_2603292

    "Boris is a casually racist, solipsistic, bullying, often ignorant, occasionally entertaining twat.

    But he is 1,000,000,000 times better than having Corbyn as PM."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,200

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Ms Mordaunt asserted that Turkey was 'likely' to be an EU member by 2024 and there was nothing - absolutely nothing - that Britain could do to prevent it.
    Which was a reasonable judgement at the time, given this was before the 2016 Turkish coup which kiboshed further progress on Turkey's accession, and at the time both Angela Merkel and David Cameron were pushing hard for further progress on Turkey's accession.

    At the time I knew an ardent pro-Remain Europhile (wanted us in the Single Currency too) who bought property in Istanbul as an investment as he expected that its value would jump up once Turkish accession was complete.

    Listen to what she actually said, she said there was nothing that the British voters would be able to do about it. She was right. There would have been no referendum, even if British voters opposed accession Parliament could unilaterally vote it through as Parliament did with the Lisbon Treaty.

    The UK voters never got a say on the Lisbon Treaty. The fact Parliament did, does not mean the voters did.
    Even without the coup, there was no chance of Turkey joining. As ever, just look at the lack of progress Turkey had made towards passing the AQ.

    It suited both the EU and Turkey to play the game, dangling membership to each other without actually doing anything towards it.

    And there's another point the haters forget: a Turkey that passed the AQ would be a *very* different Turkey than the one that had not. Which is kinda the point.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,121
    IanB2 said:

    Net popularity amongst the public:
    Charles III: +19
    Holly Willoughby: -12
    Keir Starmer: -14
    Rishi Sunak: -26
    Phillip Schofield: -39
    Xi Jinping: -40
    Boris Johnson: -45
    Prince Andrew: -71
    Vladimir Putin: -82

    Interesting how things change. In about 1992 Charles would probably have been one of the most disliked people in public life.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,200

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    Turkey officially had candidate status, so it was in a different position to other countries that had applied unilaterally and been knocked back, like Georgia.
    Yes, but that hardly means they were 'joining'. It's like getting a provisional driver's licence. Turkey had got that, but hadn't been bothered to book any lessons. And those lessons would take a decade or more.

    It was a lie by Vote Leave. And understandable one, but you may want to wonder why you're on the same side of the argument as Farage, especially given his recent pronouncements.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,743

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Good to know. I might submit an application to enter next season's NFL draft which apparently means I am "joining" the league.
    If the NFL votes to accept you into the draft as the EU voted to accept Turkey and Ukraine into the accession process, then yes you are.

    If the NFL rejects or ignores your application as the EU have with Georgia, then no you're not.

    Takes two to tango. The EU voted to begin Turkey's joining process democratically. Voted, past tense. 👍
    It's like saying a football team in the National League North is going to win the Champions League.

    They might well, after getting promoted through the leagues, winning the Premier League and then winning the Champions League. The structure is in place for them to do so.

    However, it is safe to say that the team that eventually does win the Champions League will look completely different from the one that is playing in National League North.

    And the same with Turkey. Any Turkey joining the EU would have to look wholly different from the one that was allowed to begin the process.
  • WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Ms Mordaunt asserted that Turkey was 'likely' to be an EU member by 2024 and there was nothing - absolutely nothing - that Britain could do to prevent it.
    Which was a reasonable judgement at the time, given this was before the 2016 Turkish coup which kiboshed further progress on Turkey's accession, and at the time both Angela Merkel and David Cameron were pushing hard for further progress on Turkey's accession.

    At the time I knew an ardent pro-Remain Europhile (wanted us in the Single Currency too) who bought property in Istanbul as an investment as he expected that its value would jump up once Turkish accession was complete.

    Listen to what she actually said, she said there was nothing that the British voters would be able to do about it. She was right. There would have been no referendum, even if British voters opposed accession Parliament could unilaterally vote it through as Parliament did with the Lisbon Treaty.

    The UK voters never got a say on the Lisbon Treaty. The fact Parliament did, does not mean the voters did.
    Even without the coup, there was no chance of Turkey joining. As ever, just look at the lack of progress Turkey had made towards passing the AQ.

    It suited both the EU and Turkey to play the game, dangling membership to each other without actually doing anything towards it.

    And there's another point the haters forget: a Turkey that passed the AQ would be a *very* different Turkey than the one that had not. Which is kinda the point.
    At the time both Angela Merkel and David Cameron were actively pushing a line that further progress should be accelerated and that Turkey should join.

    I fail to see why quoting their own words back at them is remotely deceptive or dishonest.

    If there's any dishonesty involved, it was Cameron and Merkel who were being dishonest and got caught out by having their own dishonesty accepted at face value.

    Either way its a matter of fact though that Turkey was joining. They had passed the starting line of the marathon, which is being accepted (as Ukraine were last year) as a candidate country. Even someone walking very slowly around a marathon course is still doing it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,121

    Andy_JS said:

    Religion in Uxbridge & South Ruislip.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/customprofiles/build/

    Christian 43.0%
    Muslim 12.5%
    Hindu 8.6%
    Sikh 4.1%
    Buddhist 0.9%
    Jewish 0.2%
    Others 0.7%
    No religion 23.7%
    Not answered 6.2%

    pretty typical of UK then
    Surely you mean typical of London?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,574
    148grss said:

    Margaret Hodge is being cancelled for saying that had she actually lived in Barking, she would have felt “fear” from seeing “different” neighbours.

    https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1668221551718662147

    Is she being cancelled, or are people pointing out the irony of her calling other people racist when she herself has said lots of racist things (and benefited financially from investments in Apartheid South Africa during the BDS movement)?

    https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1668195376971628544?s=20
    My actual experience of people in non-diverse areas of the UK seeing non-white people move into the area is -

    Curiosity
    Some silly stereotyping,
    Some welcoming
    And a bit of awkwardness.

    The Combat18 stuff is limited to dysfunctional twats.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,285

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Ms Mordaunt asserted that Turkey was 'likely' to be an EU member by 2024 and there was nothing - absolutely nothing - that Britain could do to prevent it.
    Which was a reasonable judgement at the time, given this was before the 2016 Turkish coup which kiboshed further progress on Turkey's accession, and at the time both Angela Merkel and David Cameron were pushing hard for further progress on Turkey's accession.

    At the time I knew an ardent pro-Remain Europhile (wanted us in the Single Currency too) who bought property in Istanbul as an investment as he expected that its value would jump up once Turkish accession was complete.

    Listen to what she actually said, she said there was nothing that the British voters would be able to do about it. She was right. There would have been no referendum, even if British voters opposed accession Parliament could unilaterally vote it through as Parliament did with the Lisbon Treaty.

    The UK voters never got a say on the Lisbon Treaty. The fact Parliament did, does not mean the voters did.
    Even without the coup, there was no chance of Turkey joining. As ever, just look at the lack of progress Turkey had made towards passing the AQ.

    It suited both the EU and Turkey to play the game, dangling membership to each other without actually doing anything towards it.

    And there's another point the haters forget: a Turkey that passed the AQ would be a *very* different Turkey than the one that had not. Which is kinda the point.
    "Haters"? What has hate got to do with it?
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    IanB2 said:

    Net popularity amongst the public:
    Charles III: +19
    Holly Willoughby: -12
    Keir Starmer: -14
    Rishi Sunak: -26
    Phillip Schofield: -39
    Xi Jinping: -40
    Boris Johnson: -45
    Prince Andrew: -71
    Vladimir Putin: -82

    What's the source for this one (not being a knob; I just want to forward it on to someone)?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,125

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Ms Mordaunt asserted that Turkey was 'likely' to be an EU member by 2024 and there was nothing - absolutely nothing - that Britain could do to prevent it.
    Merkel thought nothing about casually dismissing Turkey's prospects for membership when it became an issue in the German general election. Cameron wasn't able to do the same because the UK didn't have the same status in the EU hierarchy.
    This is, of course, nonsense. For example, Austria has long opposed Turkish entry. And it doesn't even make sense on its own terms - if Germany has such a high status in the EU it would surely have been easier from that point of view for poor lowly UK to agree with Germany than disagree.

    Cameron had plenty of options, but was too arrogant and stupid.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,762

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    Turkey officially had candidate status, so it was in a different position to other countries that had applied unilaterally and been knocked back, like Georgia.
    Yes, but that hardly means they were 'joining'. It's like getting a provisional driver's licence. Turkey had got that, but hadn't been bothered to book any lessons. And those lessons would take a decade or more.

    It was a lie by Vote Leave. And understandable one, but you may want to wonder why you're on the same side of the argument as Farage, especially given his recent pronouncements.
    A white lie, for sure.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,136
    148grss said:

    Roger said:

    148grss said:

    All Johnsonites - the guy who want's to inherit his mantle has appeared; which manifesto will look more like the Conservative manifesto from 2019:

    https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1668208550269550592?s=46&t=16Vx1hkPdKeRguANzrOtZQ&fbclid=IwAR34dyvOxNNi1uHeyroKkpfXlzxji8qLYL6qlVWauI0KY4RrbcpEso3hIbQ

    Because comparing your policy positions to that of Boris Johnson's right now is a smart thing, politically, actually....

    Interesting site. It's obvious SKS is coming close to crossing the line between having to keep the Leaver/Lefties on board and the racist hang 'em flog 'em disillusioned Tories.

    I for one am getting a little worried about his values. Whatever you thought of Blair/Brown I always felt their instincts were mine. I'm no longer sure that's the case with Starmer
    I don't know if Starmer really believes anything other than the importance of institutions - he is a lawyer who seems to see everything through the prism of respecting the office / station / institution of things and anything that those institutions deem "unserious" or "disrespectful" he will too. So all of his positions are about how to make people feel that institutions are serious again (after the "unseriousness" of Johnson, Truss and Corbyn) and his benchmark for seriousness is whatever the consensus of the national papers is. That's why he talked to Mumsnet activists about trans people, but not trans charities. It's why he made arguments to win the leadership and later reneged on them, because the left wing labour base aren't "serious" people in political discourse in this country - it's fine to lie to them but you can't ever suggest that the rich white people who claim working class white people are upset that non-white people have rights may be racist. It's why renationalisation and even further price caps have been taken off the table despite the fact that a lot of inflation seems to actually be just price gouging and he's starting to sound more like Osbourne on the economy, because Osbournomics is what "sensible" people believe in.

    The environment isn't "serious" and the activists aren't "respectful", so who cares if you slash your proposed investment into green energy by 70-80%. But you have to say the Met is salvageable, because you have to respect the police. You have to say that maybe Gillick competence is bad, because that's what lots of serious journalists say, and they couldn't be wrong. You have to say you'd use the nuclear weapons and kill a load of innocent people for the decisions made by the leaders of their state in any situation that involves nuclear weapons - because the serious people say that mutual mass destruction is the only serious position to take.

    If anything, Starmer has a deeply conservative strain of preservation of institutions and tradition, many of which should be challenged and need to be challenged.
    You make me warm to Starmer, but I suspect he'd more left wing than you think he is.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,200

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    To extend that analogy: they hadn't even got their trainers on for the race. In fact, whilst they had been entered for the race, they were currently enjoying a holiday in a cave hotel in Cappadocia whilst the race organisers in Brussels had pulled the starter pistol two weeks earlier.

    Saying they were 'joining' when there were so many hurdles is exactly the sort of lie that has led Breixt to be an absolute disaster.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Is there a 'rejoin movement' as you imply? I hope so but it's pretty invisible.
  • TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Good to know. I might submit an application to enter next season's NFL draft which apparently means I am "joining" the league.
    If the NFL votes to accept you into the draft as the EU voted to accept Turkey and Ukraine into the accession process, then yes you are.

    If the NFL rejects or ignores your application as the EU have with Georgia, then no you're not.

    Takes two to tango. The EU voted to begin Turkey's joining process democratically. Voted, past tense. 👍
    It's like saying a football team in the National League North is going to win the Champions League.

    They might well, after getting promoted through the leagues, winning the Premier League and then winning the Champions League. The structure is in place for them to do so.

    However, it is safe to say that the team that eventually does win the Champions League will look completely different from the one that is playing in National League North.

    And the same with Turkey. Any Turkey joining the EU would have to look wholly different from the one that was allowed to begin the process.
    No, its not the same. Going to win the Champions League is a very different thing to playing in the League or playing in the Champions League.

    If I say that National League team Boreham Wood are playing in the FA Cup, then that's not saying they're going to win the FA Cup, it says they are playing in it. Which they do.

    Turkey were past the starting line. They were in the joining process, as officially and legally voted on by the European Parliament and endorsed by the European countries leaders like Merkel, Cameron etc too. Doesn't mean they're going to join, it means they're joining, which is a marathon not a sprint.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 686
    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Net popularity amongst the public:
    Charles III: +19
    Holly Willoughby: -12
    Keir Starmer: -14
    Rishi Sunak: -26
    Phillip Schofield: -39
    Xi Jinping: -40
    Boris Johnson: -45
    Prince Andrew: -71
    Vladimir Putin: -82

    Interesting how things change. In about 1992 Charles would probably have been one of the most disliked people in public life.
    Coronation bounce. Give it time.....and he will be back down again
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,285
    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Ms Mordaunt asserted that Turkey was 'likely' to be an EU member by 2024 and there was nothing - absolutely nothing - that Britain could do to prevent it.
    Merkel thought nothing about casually dismissing Turkey's prospects for membership when it became an issue in the German general election. Cameron wasn't able to do the same because the UK didn't have the same status in the EU hierarchy.
    This is, of course, nonsense. For example, Austria has long opposed Turkish entry. And it doesn't even make sense on its own terms - if Germany has such a high status in the EU it would surely have been easier from that point of view for poor lowly UK to agree with Germany than disagree.

    Cameron had plenty of options, but was too arrogant and stupid.
    At the time Cameron was agreeing with Germany. It was Merkel who was trying to use the reopening of accession talks as a carrot when she was negotiating with Erdogan. That's what put the question on the agenda during the referendum campaign in the first place.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,480
    Interesting article - but will Trump even show up at the debates ?

    The most interesting challenger to Donald Trump just jumped into the race
    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4039038-the-most-interesting-challenger-to-donald-trump-just-jumped-into-the-race/
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,770
    edited June 2023
    How do you embed a tweet? Somebody has tweeted a picture and the resemblance is plausible.

    https://twitter.com/MartinRemains/status/1667963696067354624
    https://twitter.com/DoodleFlapper/status/1667961164330827778
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Sean_F said:

    148grss said:

    Roger said:

    148grss said:

    All Johnsonites - the guy who want's to inherit his mantle has appeared; which manifesto will look more like the Conservative manifesto from 2019:

    https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1668208550269550592?s=46&t=16Vx1hkPdKeRguANzrOtZQ&fbclid=IwAR34dyvOxNNi1uHeyroKkpfXlzxji8qLYL6qlVWauI0KY4RrbcpEso3hIbQ

    Because comparing your policy positions to that of Boris Johnson's right now is a smart thing, politically, actually....

    Interesting site. It's obvious SKS is coming close to crossing the line between having to keep the Leaver/Lefties on board and the racist hang 'em flog 'em disillusioned Tories.

    I for one am getting a little worried about his values. Whatever you thought of Blair/Brown I always felt their instincts were mine. I'm no longer sure that's the case with Starmer
    I don't know if Starmer really believes anything other than the importance of institutions - he is a lawyer who seems to see everything through the prism of respecting the office / station / institution of things and anything that those institutions deem "unserious" or "disrespectful" he will too. So all of his positions are about how to make people feel that institutions are serious again (after the "unseriousness" of Johnson, Truss and Corbyn) and his benchmark for seriousness is whatever the consensus of the national papers is. That's why he talked to Mumsnet activists about trans people, but not trans charities. It's why he made arguments to win the leadership and later reneged on them, because the left wing labour base aren't "serious" people in political discourse in this country - it's fine to lie to them but you can't ever suggest that the rich white people who claim working class white people are upset that non-white people have rights may be racist. It's why renationalisation and even further price caps have been taken off the table despite the fact that a lot of inflation seems to actually be just price gouging and he's starting to sound more like Osbourne on the economy, because Osbournomics is what "sensible" people believe in.

    The environment isn't "serious" and the activists aren't "respectful", so who cares if you slash your proposed investment into green energy by 70-80%. But you have to say the Met is salvageable, because you have to respect the police. You have to say that maybe Gillick competence is bad, because that's what lots of serious journalists say, and they couldn't be wrong. You have to say you'd use the nuclear weapons and kill a load of innocent people for the decisions made by the leaders of their state in any situation that involves nuclear weapons - because the serious people say that mutual mass destruction is the only serious position to take.

    If anything, Starmer has a deeply conservative strain of preservation of institutions and tradition, many of which should be challenged and need to be challenged.
    You make me warm to Starmer, but I suspect he'd more left wing than you think he is.
    Who can possibly know - every policy pledge he has made he has essentially u-turned on, dumped or slashed. His word is worth toilet paper.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,285
    Roger said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Is there a 'rejoin movement' as you imply? I hope so but it's pretty invisible.
    They're pinning their hopes on Starmer being such an unprincipled liar that he will campaign on staying out of the single market and customs union and then immediately change his mind after becoming PM.
  • WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    To extend that analogy: they hadn't even got their trainers on for the race. In fact, whilst they had been entered for the race, they were currently enjoying a holiday in a cave hotel in Cappadocia whilst the race organisers in Brussels had pulled the starter pistol two weeks earlier.

    Saying they were 'joining' when there were so many hurdles is exactly the sort of lie that has led Breixt to be an absolute disaster.
    They'd started the race.

    Where do you call the starting line?

    To me the starting line is when they submit an application and the European Union legally votes to accept that application and begin the process. Which had happened.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,743

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    DougSeal said:

    WillG said:

    kamski said:

    WillG said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kamski said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ...

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Listening to the head of Ofsted on R4 earlier.

    It seems that people are complaining that just because child safeguarding is no good the whole school gets an inadequate, or ineffective rating. So you can have a school which has cracking Maths and English Departments but is no good at safeguarding children and it seems people think it should receive a good or outstanding rating.

    Reminds me of the NHS outperforming on all measures apart from health outcomes and saving lives.

    The purpose of schools is to educate, especially in Maths and English, as saving lives is for hospitals, safeguarding is important too but not the purpose of school. Indeed 50 years ago most schools, state or private, didn't even do any safeguarding at all.
    Indeed, back in the 1970s "safeguarding" involved beating a child with a cane.
    And ten years ago a poll found 53% of voters would allow teachers to use the cane again in school with Conservative voters in particular pro caning

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2011/10/07/should-schoolchildren-be-caned
    They probably mean that other people's children should be whacked. In any case, presumably the entire British cane-making industry closed down in the 1980s, not to mention we are still part of the ECHR. To be serious, what parents are saying is schools are not doing a very good job of preventing disruption, which brings us back to safeguarding, Ofsted and box-ticking.
    Plenty of canes still made and used in Singapore and Singapore tops the PISA rankings.

    Indeed, 'The Ministry of Education encourages schools to punish boys by caning for serious offences such as fighting, smoking, cheating, gang-related offences, vandalism, defiance and truancy. Students may also be caned for repeated cases of more minor offences, such as being late repeatedly in a term.'
    https://singaporeschools.fandom.com/wiki/Schools'_caning#:~:text=The Ministry of Education encourages,late repeatedly in a term.
    I’d like to preserve this post.

    While superficially frivolous, it’s clear evidence, to me, that even the true conservatives have given up.

    They’re no longer serious about being in/staying in government.

    I stick by my odds;

    Evens, the tories never again win a majority.

    4/1 they cease to be a meaningful electoral force within a decade.
    Given I earlier posted a poll with 53% of UK voters backing restoring the cane in schools (even if 10 years ago) yet another example of leftwingers like you underestimating support for rightwing policies
    Oh dear!

    I suspect part of your Conservative populist soul died alongside Boris Johnson's career on Friday
    Good morning

    Just logging in after having spent a fantastic 24 hours at Liverpool's waterfront before we leave for the Isle Of Man later and read @HYUFD comment

    Utterly luddite, almost shocking, and not acceptable to the vast majority of us

    Re your last sentence I suspect far more than part of his populist soul died with the end of the malign and dreadful Johnson
    Boris will be a relative liberal moderate compared to the likes of Braverman, Rees Mogg, Patel, Frost and Badenoch who will increasingly come to the fore of the Conservative Party in opposition if Sunak and Hunt lose the next general election.

    With Silvio's passing left liberals used to think he was a rightwing populist extremist, now the Italian PM is the even more rightwing nationalist Meloni (albeit she is less friendly with Putin than he was)
    Boris is over - get used to it
    HY is the last redoubt apologist for a man that most people now realise was wholly unsuited to high office and it is a weakness of our system that he was ever allowed to get to where he did. He has done massive damage to the Conservative brand, more so than Corbyn did to Labour.
    The repair of the Labour brand is in no small part down to Starmer. It's easy to forget how much trouble Labour were in just a few years ago.

    Who is the Conservative Starmer? I don't think it's Sunak, and it looks like the Tories are likely to go down the Piddock or Burgon route if they lose the next election.
    That is my concern too, particularly as the Conservative Party was the victim of a reverse takeover by the Brexit Party with encouragement given from Johnson and the ERG meaning it is stuffed with a membership of right wing swivel-eyed loons.

    It is possible that Penny Mordaunt may be the person to reverse teh Tory decline. She is more rightwing than I would like, but has considerably more personality than nice-but-dull Starmer and might just detox the Conservative brand enough to make a comeback after one term if Starmer doesn't win a commanding majority.
    President Mordaunt, 2029.
    Mordaunt pretty terrible. Look at her repeated blatant lies about Turkey joining the EU, and doubling-down on them Trump or Johnson-style when picked up on them. Enough of the shameless liars like Johnson or Mordaunt.
    Also probably can't pass the alt-right fucc boi purity test of "What is a woman?".

    PM4PM is the herpes of British politics. A painful and disfiguring condition that won't go away and yet never kills the patient.
    Ah, of course we must take account of your view as you are a very independent thinker. We must admire (or perhaps not) a person that is a Putin apologist and is such a military expert that he was forecasting the certain demise of Ukraine.

    Fundamentally, I personally would take your view of Ms Mordaunt as seriously as I would of David Icke if he issued a fatwa against her.
    It is still laughable that the swivel eyed Remainers regard it as a lie to describe Turkey, a country in the formal application process of joining the EU, as joining the EU. These people are mental.
    tbh if you think Turkey IS joining the EU, then maybe you are the one who should check your mental health.
    By the only objective measure, Turkey is joining the EU. Whether Turkey will complete that process is another matter. Its like saying a marathon runner clearly struggling with injury and likely to drop out is "running a marathon". You seem to be struggling with basic verb tenses.
    The point we made at the time, a fact now forgotten by those of us who’ve become committed to Rejoin, is that any member state can veto an application. Which is why neither Turkey’s application, nor any future application by the U.K., will succeed.

    So the suggestion that Turkey’s application will succeed, as was the point of the demagoguery that won the referendum, is one that is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

    Inconveniently that holds for the U.K. too but former Remainers shut up about that.
    Responding to the argument by saying "we can veto it" is entirely fair. Even though David Cameron showed we were unwilling to do that. What is ridiculous is saying "its a lie and the person saying it is unworthy of high office", as Remainers on the last thread were doing. "Joining" is a present tense verb and Turkey is still, as things stand, joining the EU. Just as Kevin De Bruyne was playing in a Champions League final when he was limping about the field.
    IMV they are only 'joining' once all the barriers are crossed. They'd barely even started towards the first hurdle. They had applied to join; and that's a very different thing.

    Besides, Farage said it, and that pretty much automatically makes it a lie. Who on Earth believes anything that Russophile little sh*t says?
    That's not how the EU defines it themselves. The EU themselves define the entire joining process, which Turkey (and Ukraine and others) are in as part of the joining process. Which it is.

    So they're within the joining process. They are joining. Whether they will join is a different matter, just as if someone who is running will finish the race is a different matter.
    Good to know. I might submit an application to enter next season's NFL draft which apparently means I am "joining" the league.
    If the NFL votes to accept you into the draft as the EU voted to accept Turkey and Ukraine into the accession process, then yes you are.

    If the NFL rejects or ignores your application as the EU have with Georgia, then no you're not.

    Takes two to tango. The EU voted to begin Turkey's joining process democratically. Voted, past tense. 👍
    It's like saying a football team in the National League North is going to win the Champions League.

    They might well, after getting promoted through the leagues, winning the Premier League and then winning the Champions League. The structure is in place for them to do so.

    However, it is safe to say that the team that eventually does win the Champions League will look completely different from the one that is playing in National League North.

    And the same with Turkey. Any Turkey joining the EU would have to look wholly different from the one that was allowed to begin the process.
    No, its not the same. Going to win the Champions League is a very different thing to playing in the League or playing in the Champions League.

    If I say that National League team Boreham Wood are playing in the FA Cup, then that's not saying they're going to win the FA Cup, it says they are playing in it. Which they do.

    Turkey were past the starting line. They were in the joining process, as officially and legally voted on by the European Parliament and endorsed by the European countries leaders like Merkel, Cameron etc too. Doesn't mean they're going to join, it means they're joining, which is a marathon not a sprint.
    Yes they were past the starting line. But before they would ever be allowed to join then they would have to change significantly. A bit like Boreham Wood would have to before they were able to win the FA Cup.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,796
    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    I'm glad that all the "feminists" who love to say they're protecting women by making arguments about limiting individual rights to bodily autonomy are using their platforms to promote this story today... Wait, they aren't? Oh...

    https://twitter.com/BPAS1968/status/1667968579474432000?s=20

    It seems many are, so stop tilting at windmills.

    But yes, its absolutely disgusting that she's being prosecuted and its not remotely in the public interest. Glad the NHS, feminists, MPs and others are saying so.

    Scans and regular pre-natal treatments that she should have had etc were suspended during the pandemic and to have someone prosecuted like this is an absolute disgrace. No equivocation, it is unacceptable and ridiculous.
    I can see no leveraging of the massive social platforms of any of the GC crowd - JK Rowling, Maya Forstater, Helen Joyce, Joanna Cherry etc. etc. - nothing. Not even a side mention. They're all online, tweeting about the debate between two amendments on how sex should be defined in law, but nothing about how the law currently oppresses women in reality.
    They may be very busy protesting against the groups of activists hanging about outside abortion clinics (particularly prevalent in Glasgow) guilt tripping women entering for an abortion, that'll probably be it.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,125
    Actually I was commenting on Mordaunt saying the UK has no veto on Turkish entry (afaik she still refuses to say that is wrong), and as an example (Sandpit provided another) of Mordaunt's lack of character. She strikes me as someone who has entered politics for the wrong reasons - in that way she seems like Johnson to me.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,574
    IanB2 said:

    Net popularity amongst the public:
    Charles III: +19
    Holly Willoughby: -12
    Keir Starmer: -14
    Rishi Sunak: -26
    Phillip Schofield: -39
    Xi Jinping: -40
    Boris Johnson: -45
    Prince Andrew: -71
    Vladimir Putin: -82

    Strange set of people we're sampling there.

    Philip Schofield - who had an affair with a young male colleague, then denied it - now only marginally less unpopular than Xi Jinping - who covered up a pandemic which killed several million people, is engaged in a genocide in his own country, and seems to be plotting a future in which all other countries play second fiddle to his.


    Which I suppose illustrates the problem with this question. Do you like/dislike this person - clearly not much enthusiasm for the people above. But let's assume the people with a negative view of Philip Schofield are largely the same as have a negative view of Xi Jinping: presumably if asked who they had a more negative view of, most would answer Xi. (Or maybe they wouldn't. Maybe people do actively loathe Schofield.)
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    CatMan said:

    Just heard a theory about this 29 year old new Lord. Probably bollocks, but does anybody here think she looks like a certain former PM?

    Any details about this youthful female Lord? Like her name?
    Charlotte Owen, I believe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Owen
    Thank you. I see she worked in the Whips office.....
    I've screenshotted the wiki page for posterity; not sure how long that last para will stick around...


  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Not something you expect a 71 year-old to do (wrt the Brittany shooting).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65874063

    Extremely bitter and generation spanning boundary disputes are the pain quotidien of life in rural Breizh as none of the plots are properly surveyed and there isn't really anything else to do. My parents had a house in Kerluan and my father used to spend his entire summer holiday arguing the toss with semi pissed Breton farmers about who owned what field and the position of hedges, etc.
    Wasn't he a diplomat, though ?
    He was a Political Attaché for most of his career. A job that always seemed to have very vague duties and no notion of any measurable output.
    The main unstated function of the political attache AIUI is to manage the travel arrangements of visiting home country politicians. It's the most important job in the embassy as it's the only thing they have to get right. The measurable output is none of these politicians issue a complaint about not getting the appropriate room upgrade.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting article - but will Trump even show up at the debates ?

    The most interesting challenger to Donald Trump just jumped into the race
    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4039038-the-most-interesting-challenger-to-donald-trump-just-jumped-into-the-race/

    Trump excels at debates, especially ones with lots of opponents.

    I don’t think Pence is particularly interesting for Trump unless Pence is willing to kamikaze himself. Pence’s line will have to be “Trump was great until Jan 6th” because he was VP and if he says he was bad, he is saying he was VP in a bad admin.

    The GOP base do not care about Jan 6th, and hate Chris Christie and dislike Pence - the two who seem most likely to bring that up.
  • kamski said:

    Actually I was commenting on Mordaunt saying the UK has no veto on Turkish entry (afaik she still refuses to say that is wrong), and as an example (Sandpit provided another) of Mordaunt's lack of character. She strikes me as someone who has entered politics for the wrong reasons - in that way she seems like Johnson to me.

    Perhaps try listening to what she actually said?

    She said the UK voters would not be given a say.

    Just as they weren't given a say over Lisbon.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,285
    edited June 2023
    kamski said:

    Actually I was commenting on Mordaunt saying the UK has no veto on Turkish entry (afaik she still refuses to say that is wrong), and as an example (Sandpit provided another) of Mordaunt's lack of character. She strikes me as someone who has entered politics for the wrong reasons - in that way she seems like Johnson to me.

    She may have misspoken in her precise wording, but her point was that the British people don't have a veto because they wouldn't be asked and the government's policy was to support Turkish membership.
  • kamski said:

    Actually I was commenting on Mordaunt saying the UK has no veto on Turkish entry (afaik she still refuses to say that is wrong), and as an example (Sandpit provided another) of Mordaunt's lack of character. She strikes me as someone who has entered politics for the wrong reasons - in that way she seems like Johnson to me.

    She may have misspoke in her precise wording, but her point was that the British people don't have a veto because they wouldn't be asked and the government's policy was to support Turkish membership.
    She didn't even mis-speak, she was quite clear, repeatedly, in what she was saying. I just listened to her interview with Andrew Marr on this again, and she repeatedly makes the distinction that the voters would not be given a say in her view.

    Which is correct. She was right, unequivocally. Those calling her lying either misunderstand what she said and are wrong, or understand it and are lying themselves about it.
This discussion has been closed.