NEW: Vote Leave psychodrama returned for one last round as sources say Sir Bernard Jenkin sided with Harman and co to tip the balance of the divided Privileges Committee.
NEW: Vote Leave psychodrama returned for one last round as sources say Sir Bernard Jenkin sided with Harman and co to tip the balance of the divided Privileges Committee.
Johnson needs to lead the counter-insurgency, defeat the remainer traitors and Bring Back Brexit. His deal was Oven Ready. And we're hungrier than ever.
@christopherhope 8s EXCLUSIVE in the Sunday Telegraph MPs on Commons privileges committee consider sanctions against Boris Johnson's supporters behind 'kangaroo court' attacks on 'partygate' inquiry. Johnson allies say it is a 'McCarthyite purge'.
@christopherhope 7s Members of the committee believe the remarks of some critical MPs amount to contempt of Parliament and want action. Possible sanctions range from an addendum to its partygate report criticising the MPs to a censure motion and divisive vote in the Commons. 2/3
@christopherhope 38s The move would risk more Tory MP resignations, with supporters of Mr Johnson pledging an all-out revolt if Conservative whips fail to block such a scheme. One Government source said: “This is an attempt to purge Johnson supporters from the party. It is McCarthyism.” 3/3
BRING IT ON !!!
We don't often agree but Johnson and his sycophants need marginalising
Sorry but I think this is a step way too far.
I am delighted to see the back of Johnson but a direct attack on free speech like this (if the reports are true) is absolutely unacceptable. The Johnson supporters may be stupid and wrong but they are alowed to be and we absolutely should not be starting down the road of sanctioning people for what they say in this way.
There is a potential here for the committee to lose a lot of the good will and support it has attracted if it pursues such a partisan agenda.
I think I agree that it would play into the hands of Johnson and his supporters for the committee to go down that route, but someone has to do something, because the accusations from Johnson and his supporters that the process is a kangaroo court are extremely dangerous and damaging to Britain's democratic culture.
I'm not sure how you best counter that, but if someone doesn't find a good counter, then the prospects for British democracy are bleak. It's a frontal attack by Johnson and his supporters on any sense of there being a shared set of standards in politics that transcends partisan lines, on any sense of a shared political culture. The idea needs to be challenged and defeated before it can make progress.
Speech is free and protected.
If politicians oust politicians from Parliament they disagree with, for saying something they disagree with, then at that point it is a kangaroo court - and an antidemocratic one at that.
If you want to challenge the suggestion you're a kangaroo court then the solution is to show you're not, show your reasoning for your actions and bring the evidence into view. The solution is not to launch a vendetta against everyone who disagrees with you - that's what tyrants do.
You have missed the point of my post entirely.
The problem is that the last two decades has seen the political culture severely degraded in the US and Britain (I don't know enough to judge about other places). And this has been because of a concerted assault on previous democratic norms.
Whatever people have tried to do to defend those norms has failed, and is failing. Let me reiterate - I don't think that the proposed action by the committee will necessarily help - but a new strategy is required because the current strategy isn't working.
If you have any ideas about that then I'd love to hear them. Platitudes aren't enough.
The strategy is to make your case confidently and put the facts and evidence before the public. And that is working.
If you empower a politician to get rid of their opponents they disagree with, then that power can be abused by an elected politician like Trump to get rid of his rivals.
Democracy and free speech works, and is working. Nothing else works.
"Boris Quits" is well down the Mail's homepage - below the Amazon children survival story (lead), lady anglers quitting the team because of inclusion of a transwoman, Harry & Meghan, Dancing on Ice/Philip Schofield, UFOs, Channel4 Bloodbath, Coercive husband, Deportation madness (x2), More Schofield, Britney Spears, Football, WAGS, Assisted Suicide, Holly Willoughby dresses, Alien Invasion, Philip Schofield again, Marcus Rashford split, until finally:
Video of a guardsman after fainting. The band keeps playing and none of the people near him help. This country is fucking weird sick.
I think that would happen in any self-respecting military in the world. Military personnel can’t just stop what they’re doing (having been specifically ordered to do it) whatever the circumstances
Not when you're doing something of vital importance, maybe.
But they're playing trombones.
That’s not the way it works. Soldiers can’t judge for yourself themselves if a lawful order is of vital importance and prioritise accordingly. That’s what military discipline is all about. That’s true in all armies, at least the ones that function properly, not just the British one. I’m no soldier but being on parade, which is what they were doing, I understand has a role in promoting that discipline so military types may say it is of vital importance. Saying they’re not helping just because they’re from this specific country is plain wrong.
Most countries don't put people out in the hot sunshine wearing enormous fur hats though!
I find it hard to believe many countries do not have soldiers in inappropriate gear in hot weather.
That's not to say it may not be a problem, but it seems a poor case to do a 'woe is the UK' about.
Which ones? I remember seen Greek ones but that were furry bobbles on the toes... funny but not mad. I've tried googling a few other countries and I don't see much in the way of giant furry hats. It's insane. It's literally mad. We are a mad country.
You are an arse or the worst order.
A list of the other countries that use bearskin caps, including Canada, Sweden, Sri Lanka (notably chilly there) and Belgium, is at the below link -
You are the reason why the left in the U.K. gets nowhere. You think that insulting the country is the best way of winning votes.
I resent that.
Not the "arse" thing, that's fair game. No, it's the accusation that criticising this country is the province of the left. I'm a dyed in the bearskin wool liberal. Not left or right, centre. Centre liberal. With a penchant for needling at British shibboleths. If you want to use me as evidence that you shouldn't vote for left-wing parties good. I don't want you to vote for leftist parties.
And Doug. Mate. Cheer up. It's a lovely warm evening. Have a bear beer. But don't get dehydrated, eh lad?
You are about as centrist as Corbyn
That might be true it might not, but it is still true that the right criticise the country as well. Rees-Mogg is a complete radicalist rather than a traditionalist for example, who wants to adopt an explicitly presidential PM system. Just one of many examples.
The ever moaning leftist strand of this sort of thing is true and annoying, but they are not alone.
Well it comes down to needing to define what you mean again. Blood semantics.
To state my position, I'm - economically centrist (private business, capitalism, social safety net, keep a lid on generational inequality, reward innovation and risk taking), - socially extremely liberal (let people do what the fuck they like as long as they aren't hurting anyone, actively punish discrimination that constrains opportunities or controls people, do not offer state incentives or disincentives for people to live in particular ways) - constitutionally radical (abolish the monarchy, bring in PR, throw the Lords out onto the kerb, devolve and pool powers away from Westminster to regions/nations/EU, open to Scottish independence) - dispositionally anti-authoritarian (dislike of surveillance, defending the right to protest and strike, suspicious of coercive power structures like political parties, faiths, political trade unions, wealthy political donors, enforced patriotism)
I get called a lefty I think because of that constitutional radicalism, and to be fair there are elements in there that fit comfortably with the left. But that's only because elements of the left fit well with the abolition of meaningless hierarchies. And the sense that some fucking idiot like Jacob Rees Mogg can be considered "better" than anyone on here is numbingly offensive. It makes me sick to see people tug their forelock when confronted with a plummy voice and a well-cut suit.
But this same trait fits pretty badly with leftism as well. I don't want stuff nationalised just for the sake of it because government is worse than the market for getting people what they want. In all cases where a market can operate freely, which is almost all economic life, give people the space to operate freely. Yes, state power sits atop all that because that's the pathway to check overweaning power of very big businesses and cartels, but as long as businesses aren't taking the piss, leave them alone.
Ultimately politics is about what government should do and government should be about maximising freedom with a special focus on keeping the weak and voiceless free.
I honestly can't think of a better way to describe all the above other than liberalism. Yes, not all liberals will agree with my constitutional radicalism but it's all with a means to an end, to free up unnecessary restrictions on who can become what. There's always been a tension between my constitutional radicalism and conservatism for its own sake. But there's always been a tension between leftism and my belief in economic freedom. So I'm not a conservative, and I'm not a leftist.
And I'm so sorry for typing so much about me me me but I get frustrated when I see people not understanding a thing when it seems so clear to me. The world isn't just divided into left or conservative and the lack of ability of some people to see in anything other than red v blue.. it blisters me.
Most of what you support from your list above Corbyn would also have happily supported, so my point stands
Yes, that well known defender of free-market capitalism Jeremy Corbyn
And I'm sorry to have to make this explicit, but yes, I do agree with some things Corbyn said. Doesn't mean I'd ever want to vote for the odious little twerp, but if you can't find something to pick out of almost every political tradition that you're completely lost from the real world.
'social safety net, keep a lid on generational inequality,' is hardly pure free market capitalism now is it!
See, the problem there is the word "pure". Purity is the most dangerous political idea, and it's always the one you're obsessed with. I'm not just comfortable with, but actively proud of my political impurity.
Additional: this really gets to the heart of the matter. The reason why central planning doesn't work is because economies are too complex for one person, or even one parliament, to plan. You need millions of minds working in concert and in competition to build a working, effective, modern economy and keep it ticking over.
The same is true of grand political theories. You can't do it. Nobody can hold a theory of politics in their head that is anywhere near adequate. So you need broad principles, you need an evidence-based approach, you need the space to debate and change direction, you need to be able to get rid of people who do not contribute well to the running of a system.
I think that HYUFD fancies himself to have a good working model of the world in his head and is intolerant of others' deviations from that. And you've got a good dovecote of labels to put people in that helps you dismiss their challenges. You can categorise their impurity like some Victorian scientist labels pickled specimens. But you can't really shut out the crackling quantum world that keeps tunnelling its way into your glassware. You can't push the planets back to where you Copernican models say they should be. It's all a bit off, because you're living a Steampunk politics and you keep bumping up against Heisenbergs and Einsteins who know that your timing is off but can't explain it to you because you just can't seem to listen. The static of the big bang is hissing in your vacuum tubes but you're deaf.
When did you last vote Conservative? If you were really a centrist in UK terms you might have voted for Blair and now might vote for Starmer but you would also have voted for Cameron, May and Boris in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016
That's a rather restrictive definition of a centrist, who I speak from experience are a bit woolier than that.
I meet a majority of those criteria in any case.
Yes. I don’t think a centrist and a swing voter are necessarily the same thing. At all. Which is what HYUFD seems to be saying.
Comments
@kateferguson4 has the tea….
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1667678461597478913?s=20
“Rishi is 100 per cent responsible for all of this.”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22655141/boris-johnson-killer-email-blew-up-career-boarding-jet/
He's gone up in my estimation.....
Also giving Boris the boot, in a weird and wonderful way. AND boosting Sunak.
Who comes across as a WAY bigger man (how ironic!) than pathetic victim Boris; his own Mini Me!
As a fictional Tory PM might say, Rishi gave BoJo a bit more than a bit of stick.
And made him and his "cronies" blubber about it.
If you empower a politician to get rid of their opponents they disagree with, then that power can be abused by an elected politician like Trump to get rid of his rivals.
Democracy and free speech works, and is working. Nothing else works.
"Backing for Boris Johnson evaporates as Tory mutiny falls flat"
"Former PM unlikely to seek a new seat"
We don't do comebacks, or retreads, in this country. Not nowadays.
https://twitter.com/balumcarnes/status/1667594570501062656
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12181049/The-poisonous-inside-story-led-Johnson-bombshell-resignation.html
Unlike the Sun, which is running "Boris isn't finished" stories.....looks like the Mail thinks he is.....