I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
The problem with that form of argument is that it can be applied in surprising ways to things that most people (probably including you) would find abhorrent. It argues against police, security agencies, school curricula and inspections, the maintenance of medical records, and so on.
All forms of state and private power are susceptible to abuse. The trick is to design the form of government to allow for separation/balance of powers and to have a population educated in what their rights are.
The fact is the state could freeze your bank account today. This happens, and it's painful if it happens to you. The solution isn't to abandon all electronic money and take yourself back to the 1950s and few people choose to do that today despite the theoretical risk.
I was not sugesting we do. I was suggesting we do not eliminate the various existing means of circumventing that state control. I use cards for most of my purchases although I always carry some cash.
But things go wrong. I was supposed to have a stand at a book fair on saturday but I was ill so could not attend. Which turned out to be a good job because my card reader (Sumup) which would have accounted for the majority of my sales decided to stop working that morning. If people have cash they can use an alternative. Otherwise I would be screwed.
Nope. Bank transfer via app. My local plant nursery accepts this only: no charges at all for the owner and no cash risk.
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
Perhaps a reasonable compromise between the interests of businesses and 'left behind' consumers would be to mandate businesses over a certain size to accept cash payments. Before the trend spreads too far.
I don't carry cash so it doesn't effect me, but the potential for locking people out of the economy is real.
But I suspect the government would secretly like a society where all transactions are more easily monitored.
You should not all posters advocating a cash free society , anabon and correcthorsebat are on the authortian left....it gives them control of what we are allowed to spend whatever little they leave us with
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
The problem with that form of argument is that it can be applied in surprising ways to things that most people (probably including you) would find abhorrent. It argues against police, security agencies, school curricula and inspections, the maintenance of medical records, and so on.
All forms of state and private power are susceptible to abuse. The trick is to design the form of government to allow for separation/balance of powers and to have a population educated in what their rights are.
The fact is the state could freeze your bank account today. This happens, and it's painful if it happens to you. The solution isn't to abandon all electronic money and take yourself back to the 1950s and few people choose to do that today despite the theoretical risk.
The point being that as you say we have already gone way too far own this route. That is no reason to take it further. We need to be swinding back on the powers and reach of the state not expanding it.
Of course the irony is that the more we more towards a cashless society the more people revert to barter - the very thing cash was invented to end.
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
Perhaps a reasonable compromise between the interests of businesses and 'left behind' consumers would be to mandate businesses over a certain size to accept cash payments. Before the trend spreads too far.
I don't carry cash so it doesn't effect me, but the potential for locking people out of the economy is real.
But I suspect the government would secretly like a society where all transactions are more easily monitored.
You should not all posters advocating a cash free society , anabon and correcthorsebat are on the authortian left....it gives them control of what we are allowed to spend whatever little they leave us with
Authoritarian Left? Really? Do you ever read my posts? I couldn’t be less authoritarian you twerp. I have now explained several times that electronic cash is possible for those who fear surveillance. You really are an angry oddball.
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
If we end up with a Chinese-style all-powerful state here, it won't because we abandoned cash; retaining cash does not make the end of democracy any less likely.
It makes it much easier for them to control you when democracy is gone.
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
Well, I got no likes for when you said you knew someone senior at Disney who was going to be sacked, and I said I am sure they won't get rid of Mickey, and that was possibly the best thing I've ever said on PB, so just call it karmic justice.
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
"Credit cards not working? That can be a real pain in the ass, can't it?" - Will Smith in "Enemy of the State".
When the next Carrington event comes along and nothing is working we will quickly lose our love afair with all things electronic. Of course most of us (including me) who don't keep much cash at home will be no better off than everyone else but I do find amusing that so many people think the whole electronic universe is somehow infallable, cannot be corrupted and will never go wrong.
I have 6 tins of baked beans and an ice axe. #preppers
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
The problem with that form of argument is that it can be applied in surprising ways to things that most people (probably including you) would find abhorrent. It argues against police, security agencies, school curricula and inspections, the maintenance of medical records, and so on.
All forms of state and private power are susceptible to abuse. The trick is to design the form of government to allow for separation/balance of powers and to have a population educated in what their rights are.
The fact is the state could freeze your bank account today. This happens, and it's painful if it happens to you. The solution isn't to abandon all electronic money and take yourself back to the 1950s and few people choose to do that today despite the theoretical risk.
I was not sugesting we do. I was suggesting we do not eliminate the various existing means of circumventing that state control. I use cards for most of my purchases although I always carry some cash.
But things go wrong. I was supposed to have a stand at a book fair on saturday but I was ill so could not attend. Which turned out to be a good job because my card reader (Sumup) which would have accounted for the majority of my sales decided to stop working that morning. If people have cash they can use an alternative. Otherwise I would be screwed.
I hope you're feeling better now
Yeh thanks. Nasty bout of food poisoning in a chinese buffet in Aberdeen. I tell you the buggers are out to get me
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
Yeah but Soros
Why is there a 'but'? I am not disputing that alternative payment methods are popular and convenient - a lot of things that are popular and convenient can be manipulated for less than optimal purposes.
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
If we end up with a Chinese-style all-powerful state here, it won't because we abandoned cash; retaining cash does not make the end of democracy any less likely.
It makes it much easier for them to control you when democracy is gone.
They could simply make you bring your cash to the bank one day and exchange it for New Pounds, like Modi did. If they have unfettered power to see data over ISPs, cash is least of your worries.
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
Government can buck the market in such things, for a time at least.
I’m not particularly keen on cash, but I still use it. FWIW. I wouldn’t really miss it, but recognise there are those who would, without alternatives proactively being provided for them.
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
The Davos masterminds obviously slipped up by not treating cash as a covid transmission vector. They could have banned cash for the unvaccinated.
Businesses can refuse cash if they choose. Many in England refuse to take Scottish or NI banknotes, or even BoE notes over £20, and have done so all my life.
They may lose custom by doing so, but such is their right.
They can. Though English retailers refusing foreign banks' Sterling tokens is understandable to a point - lots of unusual designs, bank names they may not know, and legally not money in England.
On my first ever trip to Hartlepool I tried to use a 50 quid note in a corner shop. The woman (who looked like Johnny Vegas with less teeth) refused to believe such a thing existed and called me a 'c*nt'. These are the people for whom the tories now calibrate every policy.
To be fair, she was wrong about the fifty, but she was right about you.
A £50 note? In Pools? No wonder she got upset - that's more money than any of them have ever seen...
So Stewart was at a reception hosted by the Bahraini Embassy when he was provoked by this anti Bahrain regime activist to say 'go back to Bahrain' and according to the Police he will thus be investigated for racist abuse
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
The problem with that form of argument is that it can be applied in surprising ways to things that most people (probably including you) would find abhorrent. It argues against police, security agencies, school curricula and inspections, the maintenance of medical records, and so on.
All forms of state and private power are susceptible to abuse. The trick is to design the form of government to allow for separation/balance of powers and to have a population educated in what their rights are.
The fact is the state could freeze your bank account today. This happens, and it's painful if it happens to you. The solution isn't to abandon all electronic money and take yourself back to the 1950s and few people choose to do that today despite the theoretical risk.
I was not sugesting we do. I was suggesting we do not eliminate the various existing means of circumventing that state control. I use cards for most of my purchases although I always carry some cash.
But things go wrong. I was supposed to have a stand at a book fair on saturday but I was ill so could not attend. Which turned out to be a good job because my card reader (Sumup) which would have accounted for the majority of my sales decided to stop working that morning. If people have cash they can use an alternative. Otherwise I would be screwed.
Nope. Bank transfer via app. My local plant nursery accepts this only: no charges at all for the owner and no cash risk.
Something 99% of people are not set up to do so as a short term fix is useless.
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
"Credit cards not working? That can be a real pain in the ass, can't it?" - Will Smith in "Enemy of the State".
When the next Carrington event comes along and nothing is working we will quickly lose our love afair with all things electronic. Of course most of us (including me) who don't keep much cash at home will be no better off than everyone else but I do find amusing that so many people think the whole electronic universe is somehow infallable, cannot be corrupted and will never go wrong.
I have some money at home. Actual money as opposed to fiat tokens. Though I would be upset if after the Carrington event I was only offered the face value for them as opposed to their actual value...
10 or 15 years ago I probably would have supported a cashless society. But with extreme events like Trump, Ukraine, etc, taking place at regular intervals it seems like a bit of a risk.
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
Well, I got no likes for when you said you knew someone senior at Disney who was going to be sacked, and I said I am sure they won't get rid of Mickey, and that was possibly the best thing I've ever said on PB, so just call it karmic justice.
I apologize, but there is no conspiracy.
Banks are profit maximising. Small merchants are profit maximising. That's what's driving cash out of our society, not some shadowy conspiracy.
Now, sure, do some governments like the ability to track transactions - largely for the purposes of minimizing tax evasion? They sure do.
But if tracking us was the sole goal, then Bitcoin and its ilk would have been crimalized on day one, instead of being largely supported by - yes - many of the people who go to Davos.
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
The problem with that form of argument is that it can be applied in surprising ways to things that most people (probably including you) would find abhorrent. It argues against police, security agencies, school curricula and inspections, the maintenance of medical records, and so on.
All forms of state and private power are susceptible to abuse. The trick is to design the form of government to allow for separation/balance of powers and to have a population educated in what their rights are.
The fact is the state could freeze your bank account today. This happens, and it's painful if it happens to you. The solution isn't to abandon all electronic money and take yourself back to the 1950s and few people choose to do that today despite the theoretical risk.
I was not sugesting we do. I was suggesting we do not eliminate the various existing means of circumventing that state control. I use cards for most of my purchases although I always carry some cash.
But things go wrong. I was supposed to have a stand at a book fair on saturday but I was ill so could not attend. Which turned out to be a good job because my card reader (Sumup) which would have accounted for the majority of my sales decided to stop working that morning. If people have cash they can use an alternative. Otherwise I would be screwed.
Nope. Bank transfer via app. My local plant nursery accepts this only: no charges at all for the owner and no cash risk.
Something 99% of people are not set up to do so as a short term fix is useless.
Once again left wingers showing they dont give a shit about the poor when it suits them and then wondering why we think they are total hypocriatical shitheads
So Stewart was at a reception hosted by the Bahraini Embassy when he was provoked by this anti Bahrain regime activist to say 'go back to Bahrain' and according to the Police he will thus be investigated for racist abuse
He's been charged now. The attached article is old.
The CPS authorised the police to charge him for this exchange apparently 'Alwadaei is heard asking Stewart about a trip paid for by the Bahraini government in the run-up to its elections, saying, “how much did you sell yourself to the Bahraini regime?”
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
I use my watch to pay pretty much all the time now. Before The Plague the boozers round here didn’t even have card readers. An old mate from Nottingham couldn’t believe it when he came up a few months before the pandemic and we had to walk ten minutes beyond the pub to a cash point, then back again, before we could have a pint.
Now in the same pub I use my watch and the old boys look at you like you’ve just come from Jupiter.
It’s heartbreaking watch old people struggle with chip and pin and contactless, or stabbing at their shitty smartphone trying to get an app to work. In 25 years time I’ll be equally fucked by whatever gizmos they’ll have then that I just can’t get my head around.
But cash is going. For good and ill. It’s on its way out.
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
It's Luddite to support reducing choice, so that there is only one way to do something?
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
If we end up with a Chinese-style all-powerful state here, it won't because we abandoned cash; retaining cash does not make the end of democracy any less likely.
It makes it much easier for them to control you when democracy is gone.
They could simply make you bring your cash to the bank one day and exchange it for New Pounds, like Modi did. If they have unfettered power to see data over ISPs, cash is least of your worries.
The point being that if they do that it affects everyone. The Chinese way is to have a system that is completely targeted on the individual. And it works. They are already doing it as numerous journalists are reporting.
I am saddened by the continued authoritarian instincts of PB in their quest to remove cash. I like cash and want to keep it. It is also good for bookies' shops.
Sure! Plenty of transactions where people don't want an electronic record. Drug dealers. Buying a secret birthday present. Sex Workers. That alcohol habit you're denying.
I've genuinely had transactions I wanted to not show up on anything (presents, not hookers). So I get it. But we're at the point now where even Big Issue sellers take cards, and sexy goodness vendors too - with something that looks vague and innocent as a descriptor.
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
Well, I got no likes for when you said you knew someone senior at Disney who was going to be sacked, and I said I am sure they won't get rid of Mickey, and that was possibly the best thing I've ever said on PB, so just call it karmic justice.
I apologize, but there is no conspiracy.
Banks are profit maximising. Small merchants are profit maximising. That's what's driving cash out of our society, not some shadowy conspiracy.
Now, sure, do some governments like the ability to track transactions - largely for the purposes of minimizing tax evasion? They sure do.
But if tracking us was the sole goal, then Bitcoin and its ilk would have been crimalized on day one, instead of being largely supported by - yes - many of the people who go to Davos.
You are right, there is no conspiracy, there is a highly promoted policy agenda, pushed by an organisation that actively publicises its own reach amongst those with power, particularly political power. That's great news, because public policy platforms and individuals promoting them publicly can be opposed.
So Stewart was at a reception hosted by the Bahraini Embassy when he was provoked by this anti Bahrain regime activist to say 'go back to Bahrain' and according to the Police he will thus be investigated for racist abuse
He's been charged now. The attached article is old.
The CPS authorised the police to charge him for this exchange apparently 'Alwadaei is heard asking Stewart about a trip paid for by the Bahraini government in the run-up to its elections, saying, “how much did you sell yourself to the Bahraini regime?”
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
The problem with that form of argument is that it can be applied in surprising ways to things that most people (probably including you) would find abhorrent. It argues against police, security agencies, school curricula and inspections, the maintenance of medical records, and so on.
All forms of state and private power are susceptible to abuse. The trick is to design the form of government to allow for separation/balance of powers and to have a population educated in what their rights are.
The fact is the state could freeze your bank account today. This happens, and it's painful if it happens to you. The solution isn't to abandon all electronic money and take yourself back to the 1950s and few people choose to do that today despite the theoretical risk.
I was not sugesting we do. I was suggesting we do not eliminate the various existing means of circumventing that state control. I use cards for most of my purchases although I always carry some cash.
But things go wrong. I was supposed to have a stand at a book fair on saturday but I was ill so could not attend. Which turned out to be a good job because my card reader (Sumup) which would have accounted for the majority of my sales decided to stop working that morning. If people have cash they can use an alternative. Otherwise I would be screwed.
Nope. Bank transfer via app. My local plant nursery accepts this only: no charges at all for the owner and no cash risk.
Something 99% of people are not set up to do so as a short term fix is useless.
99% of people aren’t set up to do bank transfers? You what?
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
Well, I got no likes for when you said you knew someone senior at Disney who was going to be sacked, and I said I am sure they won't get rid of Mickey, and that was possibly the best thing I've ever said on PB, so just call it karmic justice.
I apologize, but there is no conspiracy.
Banks are profit maximising. Small merchants are profit maximising. That's what's driving cash out of our society, not some shadowy conspiracy.
Now, sure, do some governments like the ability to track transactions - largely for the purposes of minimizing tax evasion? They sure do.
But if tracking us was the sole goal, then Bitcoin and its ilk would have been crimalized on day one, instead of being largely supported by - yes - many of the people who go to Davos.
You are right, there is no conspiracy, there is a highly promoted policy agenda, pushed by an organisation that actively publicises its own reach amongst those with power, particularly political power. That's great news, because public policy platforms and individuals promoting them publicly can be opposed.
Do you think that's the reason that the new local cafe prefers not to have to handle cash?
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
Hope you keep an old style wallet with old style cards and cash as a backup 👍
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
It's Luddite to support reducing choice, so that there is only one way to do something?
Who is reducing choice? We transitioned from the old money to decimal money. Most of Europe transitioned from their old currencies to the Euro. Life is about change. We've evolved from old notes and coins to the latest ones. Are you bemoaning people's reduction in choice of which era of £20 they can pay with?
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
Well, I got no likes for when you said you knew someone senior at Disney who was going to be sacked, and I said I am sure they won't get rid of Mickey, and that was possibly the best thing I've ever said on PB, so just call it karmic justice.
I apologize, but there is no conspiracy.
Banks are profit maximising. Small merchants are profit maximising. That's what's driving cash out of our society, not some shadowy conspiracy.
Now, sure, do some governments like the ability to track transactions - largely for the purposes of minimizing tax evasion? They sure do.
But if tracking us was the sole goal, then Bitcoin and its ilk would have been crimalized on day one, instead of being largely supported by - yes - many of the people who go to Davos.
You are right, there is no conspiracy, there is a highly promoted policy agenda, pushed by an organisation that actively publicises its own reach amongst those with power, particularly political power. That's great news, because public policy platforms and individuals promoting them publicly can be opposed.
Do you think that's the reason that the new local cafe prefers not to have to handle cash?
No, but I do think it's the reason why all Central Banks have suddenly decided at the same time to spend considerable resources in these straitened times developing Central Bank digital currencies.
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
Well, I got no likes for when you said you knew someone senior at Disney who was going to be sacked, and I said I am sure they won't get rid of Mickey, and that was possibly the best thing I've ever said on PB, so just call it karmic justice.
I apologize, but there is no conspiracy.
Banks are profit maximising. Small merchants are profit maximising. That's what's driving cash out of our society, not some shadowy conspiracy.
Now, sure, do some governments like the ability to track transactions - largely for the purposes of minimizing tax evasion? They sure do.
But if tracking us was the sole goal, then Bitcoin and its ilk would have been crimalized on day one, instead of being largely supported by - yes - many of the people who go to Davos.
You are right, there is no conspiracy, there is a highly promoted policy agenda, pushed by an organisation that actively publicises its own reach amongst those with power, particularly political power. That's great news, because public policy platforms and individuals promoting them publicly can be opposed.
Do you think that's the reason that the new local cafe prefers not to have to handle cash?
In a few months we're going to open a shop. And the only reason we will take cash is because some of the things we will sell will be pocket money toys. If not for that, wouldn't take cash at all.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
Hope you keep an old style wallet with old style cards and cash as a backup 👍
If my watch runs out, I can use my phone. Neither happens very often. Both never.
However, I have lost cash plenty of times in my life. Stupid idea carrying it around.
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
Well, I got no likes for when you said you knew someone senior at Disney who was going to be sacked, and I said I am sure they won't get rid of Mickey, and that was possibly the best thing I've ever said on PB, so just call it karmic justice.
I apologize, but there is no conspiracy.
Banks are profit maximising. Small merchants are profit maximising. That's what's driving cash out of our society, not some shadowy conspiracy.
Now, sure, do some governments like the ability to track transactions - largely for the purposes of minimizing tax evasion? They sure do.
But if tracking us was the sole goal, then Bitcoin and its ilk would have been crimalized on day one, instead of being largely supported by - yes - many of the people who go to Davos.
You are right, there is no conspiracy, there is a highly promoted policy agenda, pushed by an organisation that actively publicises its own reach amongst those with power, particularly political power. That's great news, because public policy platforms and individuals promoting them publicly can be opposed.
Do you think that's the reason that the new local cafe prefers not to have to handle cash?
No, but I do think it's the reason why all Central Banks have suddenly decided at the same time to spend considerable resources in thesw straitened times developing Central Bank digital currencies.
Nothing to do with the emergence of cryptocurrencies and the growth of apps like CashApp?
Businesses can refuse cash if they choose. Many in England refuse to take Scottish or NI banknotes, or even BoE notes over £20, and have done so all my life.
They may lose custom by doing so, but such is their right.
Scottish and NI banknotes (or technically banknotes of banks based in Scotland and Northern Ireland) aren't even legal tender. How often do you see a £50 note? Hardly ever I would say. Though I'm told they're popular among the Chinese community where I live.
What is the point of central bank digital currencies? What problem are they solving?
All those years of printing money, that went on longer than it should have done, it was never free money, it was inflationary, the payback merely pushed into the future.
This inflationary QE money was invested in stocks. The current stock market is inflated from years of printed money. Although different asset classes are affected differently by it, QE increased demand for bonds and created money to be invested in stocks with idea to hedge the trade and lock in profit. But even a careful hedge might not always be perfect if prices go into correction, you may have to bail out and far worse if you it’s a greedy hedge or not even a hedge.
How will we ever know the true extent of hedging, without some sort of panic to test it? Indeed is there even a pile of tinder we should worry about? Just a small one? Or a hoofing great elephant in the room one?
UK has £2.5 trillion of debt which we didn’t have 10 years ago, interest rates all over the world are jumping from 0.1% to 5%, we have to start finding £125 billion a year to cover the cost of our debt. That’s £5,000 per household. The markets see no plan for UK growth, predict no great growth on the horizon, so one thing the markets can fairly demand as greater return on their investment in us - an era of 2-4% interest rates and higher gilt than we have seen for much of this century. And where’s money to be found in a heavily borrowed, taxed to the hilt, growth-less country?
Can we know when the correction of an inflated market will come? How quickly will we spot a spark getting amongst the tinder?
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
On iOS you can pay on public transport even when the battery is dead, using low power mode.
So Stewart was at a reception hosted by the Bahraini Embassy when he was provoked by this anti Bahrain regime activist to say 'go back to Bahrain' and according to the Police he will thus be investigated for racist abuse
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Well said.
To me it seems equally offensive to suggest the elderly and poor are so thick they can’t use or understand technology.
Bill Gates will be turning 70 in a few short years, likewise Tim Berners-Lee. The elderly coming through are not going to be unable to use their phones to pay, they invented this stuff!
The elderly will be dead soon, what on Earth is controversial about that?
Part of the reason I am sat here debating cash is I have been awaiting news whether my elderly and frail dad has made it to hospital still alive on his blue light ambulance run. And I've just heard that he made it. Not remotely out of the woods, but if this is a Stage Gate process he just cleared a Stage...
"People die, so what" is what BR was saying in the early days of Covid. Don't be Bart.
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
On iOS you can pay on public transport even when the battery is dead, using low power mode.
The London bus network carries millions of passengers each day, and has been cash free for a decade.
The elderly will be dead soon, what on Earth is controversial about that?
Part of the reason I am sat here debating cash is I have been awaiting news whether my elderly and frail dad has made it to hospital still alive on his blue light ambulance run. And I've just heard that he made it. Not remotely out of the woods, but if this is a Stage Gate process he just cleared a Stage...
"People die, so what" is what BR was saying in the early days of Covid. Don't be Bart.
I wasn’t saying in the general sense, I was saying it specifically in regards to money. The people these laws are designed for will be dead.
It’s exactly the same as people who are happily allowed to say the people that vote for Brexit are dying out. That’s not offensive it’s just speaking to societal fact.
And best wishes to your Dad.
As for grandparents in general, I am sad that I only had my granny left and she died 10 years ago.
The elderly will be dead soon, what on Earth is controversial about that?
Part of the reason I am sat here debating cash is I have been awaiting news whether my elderly and frail dad has made it to hospital still alive on his blue light ambulance run. And I've just heard that he made it. Not remotely out of the woods, but if this is a Stage Gate process he just cleared a Stage...
"People die, so what" is what BR was saying in the early days of Covid. Don't be Bart.
Glad to hear he has made it this far RP. Hope he pulls through. It puts our annoying little dissagrements into perspective
Businesses can refuse cash if they choose. Many in England refuse to take Scottish or NI banknotes, or even BoE notes over £20, and have done so all my life.
They may lose custom by doing so, but such is their right.
Scottish and NI banknotes (or technically banknotes of banks based in Scotland and Northern Ireland) aren't even legal tender. How often do you see a £50 note? Hardly ever I would say. Though I'm told they're popular among the Chinese community where I live.
What is the point of central bank digital currencies? What problem are they solving?
We have one already - the Pound Sterling. Most money exists as digital information in accounts rather than in physical notes and coins. It is virtual - fiat tokens. Especially in Scotland and NI where the banknotes are literally just tokens promising to move the face value digitally from your account to theirs.
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
On iOS you can pay on public transport even when the battery is dead, using low power mode.
The London bus network carries millions of passengers each day, and has been cash free for a decade.
There are so many things London should be proud of, popularising contact payments is just one of those. The public sector can innovate.
The elderly will be dead soon, what on Earth is controversial about that?
Part of the reason I am sat here debating cash is I have been awaiting news whether my elderly and frail dad has made it to hospital still alive on his blue light ambulance run. And I've just heard that he made it. Not remotely out of the woods, but if this is a Stage Gate process he just cleared a Stage...
"People die, so what" is what BR was saying in the early days of Covid. Don't be Bart.
Glad to hear he has made it this far RP. Hope he pulls through. It puts our annoying little dissagrements into perspective
Not at all - this is life! We all live it, we experience some shared things and some different things and form opinions. When we stop debating we're either all dead thanks to Putin lending us some Topol-M warheads, or under some fascist totalitarian state lead by Nigel Farage.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Yeah well you are morons because you think everyone should dance to your tune and you refuse to accept there are millions out there who through no choice of their own aren't able to. You try and force the world to be a certain way and just say that those who fall by the wayside are too stupid or old to worry about.
And yet it doesn't actually affect you. You are imposing problems on others just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about something millions of people rely on. You are howling at the moon and wondering why others think you are demented.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Yeah well you are morons because you think everyone should dance to your tune and you refuse to accept there are millions out there who through no choice of their own aren't able to. You try and force the world to be a certain way and just say that those who fall by the wayside are too stupid or old to worry about.
And yet it doesn't actually affect you. You are imposing problems on others just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about something millions of people rely on. You are howling at the moon and wondering why others think you are demented.
I am not the one advocating we legislate to force private enterprises to take cash. I think the current system whereby cash is disappearing seems to work fine in practice.
My local pub hasn’t taken cash since Covid. Why should they be forced to if it hasn’t impacted their business in any way?
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
It's Luddite to support reducing choice, so that there is only one way to do something?
Put another way- how much are we prepared to pay as a society to keep the cash pathway open?
At the moment, all that counting, transporting and storing bits of paper and metal costs, and someone is paying those costs. Some combination of businesses having lower profits and customers paying higher prices. But the cost is there- we just don't notice it, because it's always been there.
That might be a price worth paying- for tradition, for inclusion, for privacy. But it's still worth (I think) having a conversation about how many pounds and people could be freed up by making more use of digital money. And whether there are better ways of getting round the disadvantages of getting rid of notes and coins.
As with many other issues in Britain- how serious are we about becoming richer as a nation? Or are we happy to continue drifting into genteel poverty as long as we don't have to change anything much?
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
On iOS you can pay on public transport even when the battery is dead, using low power mode.
The London bus network carries millions of passengers each day, and has been cash free for a decade.
You can still use cash to buy bus passes at selected shops/newsagents.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Yeah well you are morons because you think everyone should dance to your tune and you refuse to accept there are millions out there who through no choice of their own aren't able to. You try and force the world to be a certain way and just say that those who fall by the wayside are too stupid or old to worry about.
And yet it doesn't actually affect you. You are imposing problems on others just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about something millions of people rely on. You are howling at the moon and wondering why others think you are demented.
An odd and uncharacteristically mean post from you, Richard.
I have said I wouldn’t abolish cash.
But as a system, it’s pointless, and, eventually, doomed. Fewer and fewer people use it.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Yeah well you are morons because you think everyone should dance to your tune and you refuse to accept there are millions out there who through no choice of their own aren't able to. You try and force the world to be a certain way and just say that those who fall by the wayside are too stupid or old to worry about.
And yet it doesn't actually affect you. You are imposing problems on others just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about something millions of people rely on. You are howling at the moon and wondering why others think you are demented.
I am not the one advocating we legislate to force private enterprises to take cash. I think the current system whereby cash is disappearing seems to work fine in practice.
My local pub hasn’t taken cash since Covid. Why should they be forced to if it hasn’t impacted their business in any way?
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Yeah well you are morons because you think everyone should dance to your tune and you refuse to accept there are millions out there who through no choice of their own aren't able to. You try and force the world to be a certain way and just say that those who fall by the wayside are too stupid or old to worry about.
And yet it doesn't actually affect you. You are imposing problems on others just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about something millions of people rely on. You are howling at the moon and wondering why others think you are demented.
I am not the one advocating we legislate to force private enterprises to take cash. I think the current system whereby cash is disappearing seems to work fine in practice.
My local pub hasn’t taken cash since Covid. Why should they be forced to if it hasn’t impacted their business in any way?
Re London buses, if they removed paying for bus tickets in shops tomorrow I doubt anyone would notice.
The elderly don’t use it anyway as they have an elderly Oyster equivalent and the young use contactless/Apple Pay.
We’re getting on just fine here. Can you imagine 20 people getting onto a London bus and each paying by cash???
Well quite. It’s been a brilliant change, perfectly executed and with what little resistance there was now the stuff of history. Other bus system in other cities have adopted it successfully. I find the idea of paying cash to a bus driver absolutely bizarre now: what a faff for him!
Businesses can refuse cash if they choose. Many in England refuse to take Scottish or NI banknotes, or even BoE notes over £20, and have done so all my life.
They may lose custom by doing so, but such is their right.
Scottish and NI banknotes (or technically banknotes of banks based in Scotland and Northern Ireland) aren't even legal tender. How often do you see a £50 note? Hardly ever I would say. Though I'm told they're popular among the Chinese community where I live.
What is the point of central bank digital currencies? What problem are they solving?
We have one already - the Pound Sterling. Most money exists as digital information in accounts rather than in physical notes and coins. It is virtual - fiat tokens. Especially in Scotland and NI where the banknotes are literally just tokens promising to move the face value digitally from your account to theirs.
You going on about fiat currency, but I don't know why you're putting such a focus on it. To imply a similarity between that and digital currency is a cavalier attitude. Yes, there is a transit going on to less cash payments and all that jazz but supra-national developments don't always map to the local level and smart cash isn't the only cash.
"Digital currency" refers to all of these stupid crypto scams. Something that only exists digitally and is worth fuck all. But if we take the quotes away, most modern currencies are majority digital, ours included.
What is cash? Does your plastic tenner have £10 of intrinsic value? And if you pay it into a bank do you have an actual bit of polymer sat there in a vault? No - it is simply a token used to transfer a digital value from one place to another.
Which sounds similar to "digital currency" as in crypto, but with the major difference that it is backed by a central bank who hold real money (shiny metal) to back it up...
So Stewart was at a reception hosted by the Bahraini Embassy when he was provoked by this anti Bahrain regime activist to say 'go back to Bahrain' and according to the Police he will thus be investigated for racist abuse
He's been charged now. The attached article is old.
The CPS authorised the police to charge him for this exchange apparently 'Alwadaei is heard asking Stewart about a trip paid for by the Bahraini government in the run-up to its elections, saying, “how much did you sell yourself to the Bahraini regime?”
The elderly will be dead soon, what on Earth is controversial about that?
You will be elderly soon.
And I will be dead one day. I’m not offended by that. We all die.
Perhaps this scenario can help you understand how the cash-clingers feel: Imagine if by the time you are elderly, we'll have moved on from mobile devices and young people will all start kitting themselves out with Bill Gates-style chips with the ability to broadcast peer-to-peer, so the government starts ripping out the phone masts.
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
On iOS you can pay on public transport even when the battery is dead, using low power mode.
The London bus network carries millions of passengers each day, and has been cash free for a decade.
You can still use cash to buy bus passes at selected shops/newsagents.
And Anabob is wrong anyway. TFL only announced plans to end the use of cash to buy tickets at their ticket offices and in their machines in 2020. And it met with a lot of resistance as London has some 260,000 people who are 'unbanked' - not the elderly either but the unemployed and those aged 18-24. Of course Anabob and Horse don't seem to think they are real people worthy of concern.
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
And rightly so. Cash is pointless, wasteful, risky and completely outdated. The idea many of us will still be carting around slips of paper that, if taken from our person, make us poorer in any volume for much longer is for the birds. I never use cash for anything, home or abroad. Why does anyone?
Can you 100% guarantee that tips are going to the waiters?
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
And rightly so. Cash is pointless, wasteful, risky and completely outdated. The idea many of us will still be carting around slips of paper that, if taken from our person, make us poorer in any volume for much longer is for the birds. I never use cash for anything, home or abroad. Why does anyone?
Can you 100% guarantee that tips are going to the waiters?
If giving a tip by card it definitely isn't as the Government take tax and NI off them.
And I suppose in Anabob's world all homeless will have card machines for a quick tap donation.
Cash is still the primary means of payment (and store of value) for unbanked people with a low income and helps avoiding debt traps due to uncontrolled spending of money. It supports anonymity and avoids tracking for economic or political reasons.[29] In addition, cash is the only means for contingency planning in order to mitigate risks in case of natural disasters or failures of the technical infrastructure like a large-scale power blackout or shutdown of the communication network.[30] Therefore, central banks and governments are increasingly driving the sufficient availability of cash. The US Federal Reserve has provided guidelines for the continuity of cash services,[31] and the Swedish government is concerned about the consequences in abandoning cash and is considering to pass a law requiring all banks to handle cash.[32]
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
Not totally a million miles from this in the wider west though - isn't this what Justin Trudeau did to striking truckers in Canada?
Also similar to the proposal to take driving licenses away from the environmental protesters - not too hard to imagine it as an add-on to tagging and curfew - not allowed to buy any fags, or alcohol, or pay for any leisure items. Let's sanction benefit claimants by restricting what they can spend their benefits on, etc.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
I don't think they're morons who hate the poor and elderly, I think they're morons who hate freedom. Alternatively they haven't thought through the implications of your ability to buy food being controlled by a few companies, governed by a secretive regulatory regime designed to minimize accountability.
If we get digital payment systems that have some of the same features as cash: Peer-to-peer, reasonably anonymous, not reliant on centralized parties, then we can get rid of cash.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Yeah well you are morons because you think everyone should dance to your tune and you refuse to accept there are millions out there who through no choice of their own aren't able to. You try and force the world to be a certain way and just say that those who fall by the wayside are too stupid or old to worry about.
And yet it doesn't actually affect you. You are imposing problems on others just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about something millions of people rely on. You are howling at the moon and wondering why others think you are demented.
I am not the one advocating we legislate to force private enterprises to take cash. I think the current system whereby cash is disappearing seems to work fine in practice.
My local pub hasn’t taken cash since Covid. Why should they be forced to if it hasn’t impacted their business in any way?
Re London buses, if they removed paying for bus tickets in shops tomorrow I doubt anyone would notice.
The elderly don’t use it anyway as they have an elderly Oyster equivalent and the young use contactless/Apple Pay.
We’re getting on just fine here. Can you imagine 20 people getting onto a London bus and each paying by cash???
Well quite. It’s been a brilliant change, perfectly executed and with what little resistance there was now the stuff of history. Other bus system in other cities have adopted it successfully. I find the idea of p
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
What happens if your phone runs out of power. Or just stops working for some reason??
What happens if I lose my wallet? Or the bank has a systems outage?
On iOS you can pay on public transport even when the battery is dead, using low power mode.
The London bus network carries millions of passengers each day, and has been cash free for a decade.
You can still use cash to buy bus passes at selected shops/newsagents.
And Anabob is wrong anyway. TFL only announced plans to end the use of cash to buy tickets at their ticket offices and in their machines in 2020. And it met with a lot of resistance as London has some 260,000 people who are 'unbanked' - not the elderly either but the unemployed and those aged 18-24. Of course Anabob and Horse don't seem to think they are real people worthy of concern.
I’m not wrong. I said London BUSES went cashless in 2014. I made no mention of the other elements of TfL. What’s wrong with you this evening?
The elderly will be dead soon, what on Earth is controversial about that?
You will be elderly soon.
And I will be dead one day. I’m not offended by that. We all die.
Perhaps this scenario can help you understand how the cash-clingers feel: Imagine if by the time you are elderly, we'll have moved on from mobile devices and young people will all start kitting themselves out with Bill Gates-style chips with the ability to broadcast peer-to-peer, so the government starts ripping out the phone masts.
No I’ll accept things change.
I don’t know why you feel the need to take the piss unless you’ve lost the argument. Do you not agree that infrastructure like masts and FTTP is very important if the UK is to compete?
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
I don't think they're morons who hate the poor and elderly, I think they're morons who hate freedom. Alternatively they haven't thought through the implications of your ability to buy food being controlled by a few companies, governed by a secretive regulatory regime designed to minimize accountability.
If we get digital payment systems that have some of the same features as cash: Peer-to-peer, reasonably anonymous, not reliant on centralized parties, then we can get rid of cash.
It's possible that the digital pound could end up with a system like that. This is one of those really important things that will shape the future for a long time, but isn't getting the attention it deserves. It's going to end up making a huge difference which individuals at the Treasury, Bank of England, and the Chancellor are who end up making the decisions.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Yeah well you are morons because you think everyone should dance to your tune and you refuse to accept there are millions out there who through no choice of their own aren't able to. You try and force the world to be a certain way and just say that those who fall by the wayside are too stupid or old to worry about.
And yet it doesn't actually affect you. You are imposing problems on others just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about something millions of people rely on. You are howling at the moon and wondering why others think you are demented.
I am not the one advocating we legislate to force private enterprises to take cash. I think the current system whereby cash is disappearing seems to work fine in practice.
My local pub hasn’t taken cash since Covid. Why should they be forced to if it hasn’t impacted their business in any way?
Re London buses, if they removed paying for bus tickets in shops tomorrow I doubt anyone would notice.
The elderly don’t use it anyway as they have an elderly Oyster equivalent and the young use contactless/Apple Pay.
We’re getting on just fine here. Can you imagine 20 people getting onto a London bus and each paying by cash???
Well quite. It’s been a brilliant change, perfectly executed and with what little resistance there was now the stuff of history. Other bus system in other cities have adopted it successfully. I find the idea of p
Some people like to talk about the concept of "legal tender" without having a clear understanding of what it actually means in the UK.
TBF there is a disconnect between the technical legal definition (settlement of debts in a court?) and common usage (means of payment)
There is a perception that some people have that retailers are obliged to accept this or that, but that perception is false. If a retailer say no, I don't accept cash, you can't use "legal tender" as some magical incantation to change their mind. They're allowed to do this and there's nothing you can do about it.
Retailers don’t even have to sell you anything. You could walk up to a garage with a Platinum Mastercard with a £40,000 credit limit and try to buy a brand new Audi, but if the salesman refuses to sell, you can’t force him.
An unlikely scenario, admittedly, but there is is.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
I don't think they're morons who hate the poor and elderly, I think they're morons who hate freedom. Alternatively they haven't thought through the implications of your ability to buy food being controlled by a few companies, governed by a secretive regulatory regime designed to minimize accountability.
If we get digital payment systems that have some of the same features as cash: Peer-to-peer, reasonably anonymous, not reliant on centralized parties, then we can get rid of cash.
Why throw around words like “morons” at all? Especially when I have already repeatedly said:
a) I would not abolish cash b) we should focus on digital exclusion c) digital cash tech already exists and we should develop it
I’m not wrong. I said London BUSES went cashless in 2014. I made no mention of the other elements of TfL. What’s wrong with you this evening?
In which case your argument is even more stupid and pointless. If people can buy their tickets using cash then the system is, by definition, not cashless. Something that matters to those 260,000 people without bank accounts.
Today's Left: claims to be tolerant, but is actually intolerant in practice.
How are we being intolerant? I’m not advocating any change to the system, just saying cash is on its way out and we should get rid of it. That’s an opinion backed up by the evidence.
I’m not the one who is saying we should tell private companies what they can and can’t take accept as payment. How funny that today’s left are the pro-business lot!
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
I don't think they're morons who hate the poor and elderly, I think they're morons who hate freedom. Alternatively they haven't thought through the implications of your ability to buy food being controlled by a few companies, governed by a secretive regulatory regime designed to minimize accountability.
If we get digital payment systems that have some of the same features as cash: Peer-to-peer, reasonably anonymous, not reliant on centralized parties, then we can get rid of cash.
The problem is that, in practice, cash does rely on a few centralised parties, and to most of them, its profitability is heading toward the same door taken by the cheque. If anything, Western governments are working out how to mitigate this rather than ushering it on.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Yeah well you are morons because you think everyone should dance to your tune and you refuse to accept there are millions out there who through no choice of their own aren't able to. You try and force the world to be a certain way and just say that those who fall by the wayside are too stupid or old to worry about.
And yet it doesn't actually affect you. You are imposing problems on others just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about something millions of people rely on. You are howling at the moon and wondering why others think you are demented.
I am not the one advocating we legislate to force private enterprises to take cash. I think the current system whereby cash is disappearing seems to work fine in practice.
My local pub hasn’t taken cash since Covid. Why should they be forced to if it hasn’t impacted their business in any way?
Re London buses, if they removed paying for bus tickets in shops tomorrow I doubt anyone would notice.
The elderly don’t use it anyway as they have an elderly Oyster equivalent and the young use contactless/Apple Pay.
We’re getting on just fine here. Can you imagine 20 people getting onto a London bus and each paying by cash???
Well quite. It’s been a brilliant change, perfectly executed and with what little resistance there was now the stuff of history. Other bus system in other cities have adopted it successfully. I find the idea of p
I’m not wrong. I said London BUSES went cashless in 2014. I made no mention of the other elements of TfL. What’s wrong with you this evening?
In which case your argument is even more stupid and pointless. If people can buy their tickets using cash then the system is, by definition, not cashless. Something that matters to those 260,000 people without bank accounts.
What are you talking about? There are no cash transactions on London buses, and haven’t been for a decade. You can still theoretically by a bus pass with cash in some shops, if you can find one, then show it to the driver (although I have never seen anyone use a paper ticket for years). But the buses themselves are cashless, have been since 2014.
I'm discovering an increasing number of venues and vendors that refuse to take cash.
Something really needs to be done about this. It's not legal tender if it can't be used and cash is starting to effectively become unusable and locking options and people out of the economy.
It's going to become widespread.
I was looking at some data, and the difference in insurance when you are a cashless business and a business that does keep cash on site/take cash to a bank is quite large.
A right to cash needs to be legislated for..
If Labour were serious they would pledge this. It might even win them some votes too.
It would be a strong signal that they are completely out of touch with young people and desperate for the reactionary pensioner vote.
Could very well work.
But it's deeply weird how "the vibe" of this seems to trigger another front in the culture wars, with people lining up on either side of it and then plucking out any argument that suits to fight it, with particular zealotry if it trolls the other.
We all used cash until literally about 5 minutes ago. It's absurd to say it's reactionary or out of touch to advocate for its continued relevance.
Your card machine or signal goes down you have no means to trade, except barter.
We've all been there.
I just like winding older PBers up occassionally
I actually take your point on this - just after I finished the Edinburgh Marathon (humble brag), I tried to buy some food but the telecoms in Musselburgh had been overwhelmed by the thousands of people spamming instagram with their salty faces and throbbing quads.
You can still pay with your phone with no signal - but the burger van couldn't take the payment. This caused me great anguish.
What you need to bear in mind is that in places like China this is already used as a means of societal control. Social credit in combination with a cashless society means that the Chinese Government can and does block those it has a problem with from purchasing stuff.
Now we are a million miles away from that here in Europe but the idea it could never happen here is seriously naive. Bad people do get into power and the trick is to make sure it is as difficult as possible for them to do stuff within the law before they get to the point of simply ignoring the law. It is the ame as any other human rights vs the state issue. Don't give them the powers in the first place and they can't abuse them.
Not totally a million miles from this in the wider west though - isn't this what Justin Trudeau did to striking truckers in Canada?
Also similar to the proposal to take driving licenses away from the environmental protesters - not too hard to imagine it as an add-on to tagging and curfew - not allowed to buy any fags, or alcohol, or pay for any leisure items. Let's sanction benefit claimants by restricting what they can spend their benefits on, etc.
Or as they do in China, not allowed to travel, or buy or rent property.
Try teaching kids about the value of money, counting and savings without cash and places to spend it in.
CASH.
Nah, my eldest turned into Gordon Gekko when he turned 11 and I opened his first bank account and he can see his money on his phone app.
That's summarises why the future is shit.
I don't want my kids glued to their phone. And I also want them to develop good mental arithmetic and a feel for the real tangibility of money.
You're turning into an old fogey pal - give it up, this is a battle you're never winning.
I am not sure that's entirely true. A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy. It's not one of the more unpleasant ones on the face of it (it beats 15 minute cities and mass starvation), though its purpose is clearly an intrusive one - the power to monitor all spending. However, the Davos agenda has become very very exposed. It is entirely possible that in the next few years, public revulsion overturns the entire thing - retreat from cash included.
"A cashless society (with these Central Bank digital currencies that are cropping up everywhere) is a Davos-driven policy"
You got likes for this?
It's a policy driven by the fact that (a) young people like to pay with their phones; (b) small merchants don't like paying big insurance premiums for carrying cash for a diminishing proportion of their sales.
The idea that the people at Davos are conspiring to take your cash away is utterly absurd.
As Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market", and it is the market that is putting cash out of business, not some globalist conspiracy.
Well, I got no likes for when you said you knew someone senior at Disney who was going to be sacked, and I said I am sure they won't get rid of Mickey, and that was possibly the best thing I've ever said on PB, so just call it karmic justice.
I apologize, but there is no conspiracy.
Banks are profit maximising. Small merchants are profit maximising. That's what's driving cash out of our society, not some shadowy conspiracy.
Now, sure, do some governments like the ability to track transactions - largely for the purposes of minimizing tax evasion? They sure do.
But if tracking us was the sole goal, then Bitcoin and its ilk would have been crimalized on day one, instead of being largely supported by - yes - many of the people who go to Davos.
You are right, there is no conspiracy, there is a highly promoted policy agenda, pushed by an organisation that actively publicises its own reach amongst those with power, particularly political power. That's great news, because public policy platforms and individuals promoting them publicly can be opposed.
Have you actually read any of the World Economic Forum papers?
It is laughable to think that they have one thousandth of one percent of the influence of the guy at Apple who said "You know what, if we put an NFC chip in the Apple watch..."
The guy who runs Barclays bank, you know what he cares about? His stock options. The guy at Apple? His stock options.
People are "pushing" digital payments, because that's how they make more money. Nobody needs a talking shop to be told that. There's no instructions eminating from Davos.
How do you suppose this works? That the people at some bank say: well, the instrucrtions from the Davos committee say this...
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
It's Luddite to support reducing choice, so that there is only one way to do something?
Put another way- how much are we prepared to pay as a society to keep the cash pathway open?
At the moment, all that counting, transporting and storing bits of paper and metal costs, and someone is paying those costs. Some combination of businesses having lower profits and customers paying higher prices. But the cost is there- we just don't notice it, because it's always been there.
That might be a price worth paying- for tradition, for inclusion, for privacy. But it's still worth (I think) having a conversation about how many pounds and people could be freed up by making more use of digital money. And whether there are better ways of getting round the disadvantages of getting rid of notes and coins.
As with many other issues in Britain- how serious are we about becoming richer as a nation? Or are we happy to continue drifting into genteel poverty as long as we don't have to change anything much?
This is exactly it. One can complain about hole-in-the-wall cafés that don't take cash, if it's really that important. But if the government puts £2 a month on everyone's bank charges to fund cash in transit, ATMs, and daily or weekly small business transactions, someone else will complain about that too. And that's essentially the route Sweden is going to choose - and they're the most advanced country on the road to the post-cash economy.
Why are you so insistent on making life difficult for 14 million people and annoying for millions more? You gain nothing by it since no one forces you to use cash.
I agree that Horse can be intolerant, but the original question was the other way round: should something be done about places that no longer accept cash? I would say no. If a small business doesn't want the hassle that goes along with handling cash, there shouldn't be any problem with allowing them to be card/contactless only.
I don’t see what I’m being intolerant about. I’m stating my opinion, everyone else is entitled to theirs. I just don’t like the idea that I’m somehow being offensive to the elderly because I am saying we’re catering for their use when in a few years they won’t be around anymore.
One PBer in particular is very fond of accusing those who dislike/reject cash as “morons” who hate the poor and elderly.
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
Yeah well you are morons because you think everyone should dance to your tune and you refuse to accept there are millions out there who through no choice of their own aren't able to. You try and force the world to be a certain way and just say that those who fall by the wayside are too stupid or old to worry about.
And yet it doesn't actually affect you. You are imposing problems on others just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about something millions of people rely on. You are howling at the moon and wondering why others think you are demented.
I am not the one advocating we legislate to force private enterprises to take cash. I think the current system whereby cash is disappearing seems to work fine in practice.
My local pub hasn’t taken cash since Covid. Why should they be forced to if it hasn’t impacted their business in any way?
Re London buses, if they removed paying for bus tickets in shops tomorrow I doubt anyone would notice.
The elderly don’t use it anyway as they have an elderly Oyster equivalent and the young use contactless/Apple Pay.
We’re getting on just fine here. Can you imagine 20 people getting onto a London bus and each paying by cash???
Well quite. It’s been a brilliant change, perfectly executed and with what little resistance there was now the stuff of history. Other bus system in other cities have adopted it successfully. I find the idea of p
For stating an opinion I’m a moron and apparently ageist.
This site really is the pits sometimes unfortunately. You don’t like my opinion fine but argue with it instead of calling me names.
Good night
The cash-clingers are a weird, intemperate bunch. Cashless bars, coffee shops and buses trigger them to the point of being needlessly rude to others. It’s an odd affliction.
Comments
Of course the irony is that the more we more towards a cashless society the more people revert to barter - the very thing cash was invented to end.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/20/met-to-investigate-tory-mp-bob-stewart-over-alleged-racial-abuse
Cash? It is in a serious decline, and the people railing against that sound like luddites. It isn't about to disappear overnight, we're going to find ways to bring elderly and disadvantaged people into being able to have equal access to this new digital world, but the digital world IS here.
Cash has very simply become a pain in the arse. I can pay unlimited amounts of money - very large or very small - with a tap of my phone. My "wallet" has all my regular use cards, debit, credit, store etc. It is my phone. And I could buy a smart watch where I tap my wrist instead.
Actually having to get bits of plastic or cupro-nickel to do so takes effort. And for what - our "money" has no actual value, they are just tokens. Businesses who then need to process these tokens sacrifice a chunk of them in their own faff of physically handling and processing these into their banks and balance sheets.
Its not about to disappear completely. But its on its way.
I’m not particularly keen on cash, but I still use it. FWIW.
I wouldn’t really miss it, but recognise there are those who would, without alternatives proactively being provided for them.
Banks are profit maximising. Small merchants are profit maximising. That's what's driving cash out of our society, not some shadowy conspiracy.
Now, sure, do some governments like the ability to track transactions - largely for the purposes of minimizing tax evasion? They sure do.
But if tracking us was the sole goal, then Bitcoin and its ilk would have been crimalized on day one, instead of being largely supported by - yes - many of the people who go to Davos.
In response, the MP for Beckenham is heard saying: “Get stuffed. Bahrain’s a great place. End of.” And then he is heard saying: “Go away, I hate you.” Stewart then says: “Go back to Bahrain.” After another comment from Alwadaei, he adds: “Now you shut up you stupid man.” He then says: “You’re taking money off my country, go away.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/20/met-to-investigate-tory-mp-bob-stewart-over-alleged-racial-abuse
Now in the same pub I use my watch and the old boys look at you like you’ve just come from Jupiter.
It’s heartbreaking watch old people struggle with chip and pin and contactless, or stabbing at their shitty smartphone trying to get an app to work. In 25 years time I’ll be equally fucked by whatever gizmos they’ll have then that I just can’t get my head around.
But cash is going. For good and ill. It’s on its way out.
I've genuinely had transactions I wanted to not show up on anything (presents, not hookers). So I get it. But we're at the point now where even Big Issue sellers take cards, and sexy goodness vendors too - with something that looks vague and innocent as a descriptor.
However, I have lost cash plenty of times in my life. Stupid idea carrying it around.
What is the point of central bank digital currencies? What problem are they solving?
This inflationary QE money was invested in stocks. The current stock market is inflated from years of printed money. Although different asset classes are affected differently by it, QE increased demand for bonds and created money to be invested in stocks with idea to hedge the trade and lock in profit. But even a careful hedge might not always be perfect if prices go into correction, you may have to bail out and far worse if you it’s a greedy hedge or not even a hedge.
How will we ever know the true extent of hedging, without some sort of panic to test it? Indeed is there even a pile of tinder we should worry about? Just a small one? Or a hoofing great elephant in the room one?
UK has £2.5 trillion of debt which we didn’t have 10 years ago, interest rates all over the world are jumping from 0.1% to 5%, we have to start finding £125 billion a year to cover the cost of our debt. That’s £5,000 per household. The markets see no plan for UK growth, predict no great growth on the horizon, so one thing the markets can fairly demand as greater return on their investment in us - an era of 2-4% interest rates and higher gilt than we have seen for much of this century. And where’s money to be found in a heavily borrowed, taxed to the hilt, growth-less country?
Can we know when the correction of an inflated market will come? How quickly will we spot a spark getting amongst the tinder?
Of course, it’s been explained to him several times that there are remedies to digital exclusion and it is these on which we should focus, rather than an anachronistic system of barter via slip of paper and scrap of metal.
To me it seems equally offensive to suggest the elderly and poor are so thick they can’t use or understand technology.
Bill Gates will be turning 70 in a few short years, likewise Tim Berners-Lee. The elderly coming through are not going to be unable to use their phones to pay, they invented this stuff!
"People die, so what" is what BR was saying in the early days of Covid. Don't be Bart.
It’s exactly the same as people who are happily allowed to say the people that vote for Brexit are dying out. That’s not offensive it’s just speaking to societal fact.
And best wishes to your Dad.
As for grandparents in general, I am sad that I only had my granny left and she died 10 years ago.
And yet it doesn't actually affect you. You are imposing problems on others just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about something millions of people rely on. You are howling at the moon and wondering why others think you are demented.
My local pub hasn’t taken cash since Covid. Why should they be forced to if it hasn’t impacted their business in any way?
At the moment, all that counting, transporting and storing bits of paper and metal costs, and someone is paying those costs. Some combination of businesses having lower profits and customers paying higher prices. But the cost is there- we just don't notice it, because it's always been there.
That might be a price worth paying- for tradition, for inclusion, for privacy. But it's still worth (I think) having a conversation about how many pounds and people could be freed up by making more use of digital money. And whether there are better ways of getting round the disadvantages of getting rid of notes and coins.
As with many other issues in Britain- how serious are we about becoming richer as a nation? Or are we happy to continue drifting into genteel poverty as long as we don't have to change anything much?
I have said I wouldn’t abolish cash.
But as a system, it’s pointless, and, eventually, doomed. Fewer and fewer people use it.
We must try to imagine a world without it.
The elderly don’t use it anyway as they have an elderly Oyster equivalent and the young use contactless/Apple Pay.
We’re getting on just fine here. Can you imagine 20 people getting onto a London bus and each paying by cash???
What is cash? Does your plastic tenner have £10 of intrinsic value? And if you pay it into a bank do you have an actual bit of polymer sat there in a vault? No - it is simply a token used to transfer a digital value from one place to another.
Which sounds similar to "digital currency" as in crypto, but with the major difference that it is backed by a central bank who hold real money (shiny metal) to back it up...
https://freedomhouse.org/country/bahrain/freedom-world/2023
And I suppose in Anabob's world all homeless will have card machines for a quick tap donation.
If we get digital payment systems that have some of the same features as cash: Peer-to-peer, reasonably anonymous, not reliant on centralized parties, then we can get rid of cash.
I don’t know why you feel the need to take the piss unless you’ve lost the argument. Do you not agree that infrastructure like masts and FTTP is very important if the UK is to compete?
An unlikely scenario, admittedly, but there is is.
a) I would not abolish cash
b) we should focus on digital exclusion
c) digital cash tech already exists and we should develop it
I’m not the one who is saying we should tell private companies what they can and can’t take accept as payment. How funny that today’s left are the pro-business lot!
This site really is the pits sometimes unfortunately. You don’t like my opinion fine but argue with it instead of calling me names.
Good night
The world has moved on.
And the intolerant ones are those saying businesses should be forced to accept cash even if they don’t want to.
I say, leave it to them and their market.
It is laughable to think that they have one thousandth of one percent of the influence of the guy at Apple who said "You know what, if we put an NFC chip in the Apple watch..."
The guy who runs Barclays bank, you know what he cares about? His stock options. The guy at Apple? His stock options.
People are "pushing" digital payments, because that's how they make more money. Nobody needs a talking shop to be told that. There's no instructions eminating from Davos.
How do you suppose this works? That the people at some bank say: well, the instrucrtions from the Davos committee say this...