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The Cheque is in the Post – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited May 2023 in General
imageThe Cheque is in the Post – politicalbetting.com

Remember the De Lorean fiasco? To provide jobs in Northern Ireland, the then Tory government paid the bouffant-haired car designer to set up his factory there. It collapsed a few years later amidst missing money and fraud. Arthur Andersen, the auditors, who admitted missing obvious fraud signs, were banned from government work and sued. It was only when Blair won that the ban on AA was lifted and a risible settlement agreed. (Doubtless entirely coincidentally, AA had provided free advice to Labour in opposition. A “scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” approach to favours has never restricted itself to one party.)

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Second!
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    It was the 1974-9 Labour Government that provided those huge grants to De Lorean. Mrs T refused to bail out the company and it went bust.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,459
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65520699

    It seems the board/senior management have been paid bonuses they are not entitled to based on false information. The CEO will repay it but they are still considering whether the others should. I wonder if there will be a fraud investigation.....
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    edited May 2023

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65520699

    It seems the board/senior management have been paid bonuses they are not entitled to based on false information. The CEO will repay it but they are still considering whether the others should. I wonder if there will be a fraud investigation.....

    It beggars belief, that knowing what had gone on and that the Management were responsible, as it was on their watch, that they thought any kind of bonus was appropriate.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65520699

    It seems the board/senior management have been paid bonuses they are not entitled to based on false information. The CEO will repay it but they are still considering whether the others should. I wonder if there will be a fraud investigation.....

    It beggars belief, that knowing what had gone on and that the Management were responsible, as it was on their watch, that they thought any kind of bonus was appropriate.
    Does it beggar belief more than the fact that these people, who prima facie conspired to pervert the course of justice, have not only not been prosecuted but are still in their jobs?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    It's not very impressive from Kemi so far this.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,678
    Well, you've hit the nail on the head in your article Cyclefree.

    People hate admitting mistakes, more than probably anything else, unless those mistakes have very little real consequences.

    As the Post Office failure happened under both Labour and then the Coalition, the big three parties have no incentive to take up the cause for the Post Masters, as it would make them look bad. If there is one thing they can't have, is them looking bad.

    So unless the SNP are going to do it, there isn't another major party in the UK that will be willing to take up the fight.


    Oh, there will be an apology, and probably 'compensation' eventually. But we do love to leave these things far, far too late so that we can finally say, "Yep we got it wrong." and take credit for that, without the nasty of the blame sticking to us or the compensation really getting paid out as everyone is long dead anyway.
    The Prime Minister who will apologise for the Post Office Scandal is currently in Year 7.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972

    It's not very impressive from Kemi so far this.

    Told you she was rubbish.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,748
    edited May 2023
    The positive thing about this 'post office scandal' is that the post office got found out. It is important not to lose sight of that. I also think that the 'cancellation' of Paula Vennells will probably have a positive influence on other CEOs who may be involved in similar things.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    edited May 2023
    Speechless, literally.

    Plus I’m not the only one who thinks the catholic faith bit could have been written a bit less ambiguously.


  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    edited May 2023
    darkage said:

    The positive thing about this 'post office scandal' is that the post office got found out. It is important not to lose sight of that. I also think that the 'cancellation' of Paula Vennells will probably have a positive influence on other CEOs who may be involved in similar things.

    She still a Lay Reader, a sort of an assistant priest, in the Church of England, isn’t she?

    And this year‘s annual report said that it had been approved by the chairman of the enquiry, when, in fact it hadn’t. Apologies, were given but it was still a deliberate lie.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65520699

    It seems the board/senior management have been paid bonuses they are not entitled to based on false information. The CEO will repay it but they are still considering whether the others should. I wonder if there will be a fraud investigation.....

    Not if they are tory donors
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    edited May 2023

    Speechless, literally.

    Plus I’m not the only one who thinks the catholic faith but could have been written a bit less ambiguously.


    I bet the Archbishop of Glasgow said some funny words when he saw that given the amount of time and energy he has expended trying to finally root out and at least start to make restitution for the many child sex abuse scandals in the Scottish Catholic Church.

    And leaving that aside, an utterly unfit person to be an MP.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    edited May 2023

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    No time servers will serve time.

    Edit - what puzzles me is that this is far from the only time Fujitsu has messed up a government contract, although given the crimes they committed during it it is undoubtedly the most egregious.

    And yet they still get these contracts.

    It's like accepting Boris Johnson's word when he says 'this time I won't cheat on my wife' or believing Dominic Cummings when he says 'this time I know what I'm talking about.'
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 405
    It's simply untrue to assert, as Cyclefree does, that wrongly charged subpostmasters had "no obvious representative to speak for them, no-one to whom they – collectively – matter.

    The National Federation of Subpostmasters (NFSP) exists for precisely that purpose. And Colin Baker, its General Secretary at the time the scandal began to emerge - now retired - has publicly confirmed the NFSP's, and Baker's, complicity in helping the Post Office, and Labour and Tory governments, lie about the system's inadequacy.
    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252527837/Subpostmaster-federation-deliberately-kept-public-in-dark-over-computer-problems-secret)

    Baker, like many senior Post Office managers, thought Horizon was so essential to the future of post offices that propagandising for it was more important than the risk of false imprisonment.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    Flanner said:

    It's simply untrue to assert, as Cyclefree does, that wrongly charged subpostmasters had "no obvious representative to speak for them, no-one to whom they – collectively – matter.

    The National Federation of Subpostmasters (NFSP) exists for precisely that purpose. And Colin Baker, its General Secretary at the time the scandal began to emerge - now retired - has publicly confirmed the NFSP's, and Baker's, complicity in helping the Post Office, and Labour and Tory governments, lie about the system's inadequacy.
    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252527837/Subpostmaster-federation-deliberately-kept-public-in-dark-over-computer-problems-secret)

    Baker, like many senior Post Office managers, thought Horizon was so essential to the future of post offices that propagandising for it was more important than the risk of false imprisonment.

    That would rather tend to confirm what Cyclefree says, actually. They did have nobody to whom they mattered, because their ostensible representatives were more concerned with supporting the - criminal and deeply flawed - system.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Good morning

    A quite remarkable piece from @Cyclefree which as you read it brings emotions of anger, despair, and frustration

    Just what is wrong with our country's politicians, lawyers, and others from across the political arena that allows such a disgraceful situation

    I hope justice is delivered quickly but I will not hold my breath
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    edited May 2023
    A driver suspected of taking to the roads for half a century without a licence has been stopped after boasting about his status, police have said.

    Officers in Derbyshire said the 69-year-old had managed to fool insurance companies to cover his car.

    But, they added, "the flaw in his dastardly plan was bragging".

    The law caught up with him in a Derby retail park, where his vehicle was seized and the culprit reported for a number of offences.
    'Abrupt end'

    Derbyshire Roads Policing tweeted on Saturday: "The driver of this vehicle has never passed a test despite being 69 years old and having been driving for over 50 years.

    "He has systematically provided details to insurance companies indicating that he had a licence but the flaw in his dastardly plan was bragging.

    "His long reign came to an abrupt end once we found out.

    "Vehicle seized and driver reported for numerous offences."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-65512734

    Undoubtedly a Brexiteer. 😂
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    edited May 2023
    malcolmg said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65520699

    It seems the board/senior management have been paid bonuses they are not entitled to based on false information. The CEO will repay it but they are still considering whether the others should. I wonder if there will be a fraud investigation.....

    Not if they are tory donors
    That's rather too cynical.. Still suffering from turnip poisoning.?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    ydoethur said:

    Speechless, literally.

    Plus I’m not the only one who thinks the catholic faith but could have been written a bit less ambiguously.


    I bet the Archbishop of Glasgow said some funny words when he saw that given the amount of time and energy he has expended trying to finally root out and at least start to make restitution for the many child sex abuse scandals in the Scottish Catholic Church.

    And leaving that aside, an utterly unfit person to be an MP.
    These criminals in the SNP have no shame
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    malcolmg said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65520699

    It seems the board/senior management have been paid bonuses they are not entitled to based on false information. The CEO will repay it but they are still considering whether the others should. I wonder if there will be a fraud investigation.....

    Not if they are tory donors
    That's rather too cynical.. Still suffering from turnip poisoning.?
    Stay classy, not Tory
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    ydoethur said:

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    No time servers will serve time.

    Edit - what puzzles me is that this is far from the only time Fujitsu has messed up a government contract, although given the crimes they committed during it it is undoubtedly the most egregious.

    And yet they still get these contracts.

    It's like accepting Boris Johnson's word when he says 'this time I won't cheat on my wife' or believing Dominic Cummings when he says 'this time I know what I'm talking about.'
    follow the money
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,016

    Barnesian said:

    Excellent piece

    No, Barnesian, it is a brilliant piece.

    It is the worst scandal of my long lifetime. Cyclefree is absolutely right. Those responsible must be held to account for it, and now - not some distant time in the future.

    Anything we can do to put pressure on the culprits, which she has clearly identified, should be done.
    The scandal neatly summarises the British establishment view of the world. The little people are the wrong sort, the system can be trusted. So if the computer system which the right people installed says that money has been stolen then it jolly well has been.

    It also highlights the other problem with British political society - longevity. On one hand we have planning windows which are far too short. Need results before the election or it doesn't get approved. On the other hand where it is a long term scandal it gets ignored because it is always Someone Else's Problem. blame the previous lot.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    The Post Office scandal should come to a conclusion with the report from Sir Wyn Williams later this year. It doesn’t look, from what has happened so far as though he’ll pull any punches, so it’s up to us, as citizens, to urge our MP’s to act on it. As Ms Cyclefree says no Government comes out of this well, so it’s down to backbenchers across both Houses to act.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589

    It's not very impressive from Kemi so far this.

    She talks a good job, which seems to be all that is needed for an onward and upward Government career trajectory.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,748

    darkage said:

    The positive thing about this 'post office scandal' is that the post office got found out. It is important not to lose sight of that. I also think that the 'cancellation' of Paula Vennells will probably have a positive influence on other CEOs who may be involved in similar things.

    She still a Lay Reader, a sort of an assistant priest, in the Church of England, isn’t she?

    And this year‘s annual report said that it had been approved by the chairman of the enquiry, when, in fact it hadn’t. Apologies, were given but it was still a deliberate lie.
    I think that this story is probably quite complicated - not so much what happened at the start (the abuse of power and miscarriage of justice) but who was responsible for what in the aftermath. Looking at the question of participation in the enquiry, this is going to be difficult. Not sure what is going on with these 'bonuses' but some remuneration is going to be involved.

    I'd also challenge the idea that Vennells (or anyone else found to have 'done wrong') should be hounded out of every voluntary position they have.

    One of the issues this raises, is that if you are the leader of a large organisation, there are inevitably going to be problems coming up, potentially of this magnitude. If as leader you become a lightning rod for all criticism and then get ruined when it goes wrong; whilst other people below you who are responsible for the problems plod on anonymously and protected by employment law/trade unions etc, then competent people will be put off becoming a leader.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65520699

    It seems the board/senior management have been paid bonuses they are not entitled to based on false information. The CEO will repay it but they are still considering whether the others should. I wonder if there will be a fraud investigation.....

    Not if they are tory donors
    That's rather too cynical.. Still suffering from turnip poisoning.?
    Stay classy, not Tory
    I have been off and on here since GE2005 and I still haven't got a Scooby Doo as to what this turnip caper is all about. Is it a private joke between you and the more enthusiastic PB Tories?
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,995

    It's not very impressive from Kemi so far this.

    Told you she was rubbish.
    She *is* rubbish (or at least has been promoted beyond her current ability and experience). Most ideologues are. She realised that by banging on about toilets and diversity she’d found a key to rise in the esteem of the modern Conservative Party. She then backed the right horse in Rishi, for whom she gives a little cover on the right.

    The problem, as with so many others, is that faced with the complex realities of a ministerial brief she now realises she can’t just witter about What Is A Woman or grammar schools and expect the problems to go away.

    I guess this is what happens when patronage and ideology matter so much more than ability. It’s how we got PM Truss.

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65520699

    It seems the board/senior management have been paid bonuses they are not entitled to based on false information. The CEO will repay it but they are still considering whether the others should. I wonder if there will be a fraud investigation.....

    Not if they are tory donors
    That's rather too cynical.. Still suffering from turnip poisoning.?
    Stay classy, not Tory
    I have been off and on here since GE2005 and I still haven't got a Scooby Doo as to what this turnip caper is all about. Is it a private joke between you and the more enthusiastic PB Tories?
    I dint know who started it. Malc has become much more aggressive of late, its almost as though there was more than one of him....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    The positive thing about this 'post office scandal' is that the post office got found out. It is important not to lose sight of that. I also think that the 'cancellation' of Paula Vennells will probably have a positive influence on other CEOs who may be involved in similar things.

    She still a Lay Reader, a sort of an assistant priest, in the Church of England, isn’t she?

    And this year‘s annual report said that it had been approved by the chairman of the enquiry, when, in fact it hadn’t. Apologies, were given but it was still a deliberate lie.
    I think that this story is probably quite complicated - not so much what happened at the start (the abuse of power and miscarriage of justice) but who was responsible for what in the aftermath. Looking at the question of participation in the enquiry, this is going to be difficult. Not sure what is going on with these 'bonuses' but some remuneration is going to be involved.

    I'd also challenge the idea that Vennells (or anyone else found to have 'done wrong') should be hounded out of every voluntary position they have.

    One of the issues this raises, is that if you are the leader of a large organisation, there are inevitably going to be problems coming up, potentially of this magnitude. If as leader you become a lightning rod for all criticism and then get ruined when it goes wrong; whilst other people below you who are responsible for the problems plod on anonymously and protected by employment law/trade unions etc, then competent people will be put off becoming a leader.
    Sorry @darkage, but while I’d agree generally, I think that if the Church is going to retain what’s left of its moral authority ‘something’ ought to be done, and seen to be done, about Vennells.
    I take the point, too, about defences being provided to members of trade associations, trade unions etc., but if they are guilty, then down they go.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,093
    Sean_F said:

    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.

    Two awkward bits of human/British psyche combining in an unhealthy way.

    We (and I suspect this is fundamentally human but worse in Britain) don't like external checks and balances. So the Post Office, Ofsted etc get to mark their own homework and don't pick up on small fixable issues.

    Then there's the "off with their heads tendency", strengthened by the (fairly unique) British press. To admit getting anything wrong is to invite ridicule and career death. No wonder people clam up.

    Goodness knows what we do about it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589
    edited May 2023

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    One of the more egregious double miscarriages of justice was when the retired South Wales Police detectives who had allegedly "fitted up" the Cardiff Three for Lynette White's murder went to court, the case was thrown out because serving South Wales Police detectives "mislaid" all the evidence against their erstwhile colleagues. Talk about a happy coincidence. Fortunately after the acquittals the evidence was found, so no harm done.

    If you can't look after your own, who can you look after?
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    darkage said:

    The positive thing about this 'post office scandal' is that the post office got found out. It is important not to lose sight of that. I also think that the 'cancellation' of Paula Vennells will probably have a positive influence on other CEOs who may be involved in similar things.

    She still a Lay Reader, a sort of an assistant priest, in the Church of England, isn’t she?
    No, she isn't. Thankfully.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    It's not very impressive from Kemi so far this.

    She talks a good job, which seems to be all that is needed for an onward and upward Government career trajectory.
    She talks well and tickles all the right wing erogenous zones, but not much substance or achievement as far as I can see.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    darkage said:

    The positive thing about this 'post office scandal' is that the post office got found out. It is important not to lose sight of that. I also think that the 'cancellation' of Paula Vennells will probably have a positive influence on other CEOs who may be involved in similar things.

    She still a Lay Reader, a sort of an assistant priest, in the Church of England, isn’t she?
    No, she isn't. Thankfully.
    Good.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    DavidL said:

    Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.

    Performing so well there would have a few bonuses for the bosses I suspect.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited May 2023

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and the victims.

    Authorities will always protect their own. Those at the top know this and encourage it. Why? Because it would be bad for morale if they didn't.

    Same story for social workers, customs officers, medics, etc.

    The biggest sin of all is to bring the whole f*cking sh*tshow into disrepute. In such circumstances, some poor b*stard who didn't understand the (real) rules and went "too far" (e.g. Harold Shipman) can get disowned and left to swing (eventually).

    @CycleFree - you are naive.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589
    Foxy said:

    It's not very impressive from Kemi so far this.

    She talks a good job, which seems to be all that is needed for an onward and upward Government career trajectory.
    She talks well and tickles all the right wing erogenous zones, but not much substance or achievement as far as I can see.
    You could write that about most of the next set of runners and riders for Tory Party leader.

    I still haven't come to terms with the idea (courtesy of PB a couple of days ago) that Oliver Dowden is even a vague consideration for future Prime Minister.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Sean_F said:

    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.

    Which, if it is that widespread, suggests its more about human psychology and that there's a pressing need to incentivise the right behaviours by design, because the wrong ones will be by default.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    DavidL said:

    Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.

    Performing so well there would have a few bonuses for the bosses I suspect.
    I wonder if the privatisation or proposed privatisation were also motivating factors, the business would have looked significantly more profitable than it actually was.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
  • WestieWestie Posts: 426
    edited May 2023

    Sean_F said:

    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.

    Which, if it is that widespread, suggests its more about human psychology and that there's a pressing need to incentivise the right behaviours by design, because the wrong ones will be by default.
    You can't reform the system. Just kick it till it breaks.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Foxy said:

    It's not very impressive from Kemi so far this.

    She talks a good job, which seems to be all that is needed for an onward and upward Government career trajectory.
    She talks well and tickles all the right wing erogenous zones, but not much substance or achievement as far as I can see.
    You could write that about most of the next set of runners and riders for Tory Party leader.

    I still haven't come to terms with the idea (courtesy of PB a couple of days ago) that Oliver Dowden is even a vague consideration for future Prime Minister.
    Its possible that its now so difficult to achieve something without upsetting too many vested interests that its politically safer to do nothing when in office.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589
    Westie said:

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and the victims.

    Authorities will always protect their own. Those at the top know this and encourage it. Why? Because it would be bad for morale if they didn't.

    Same story for social workers, customs officers, medics, etc.

    The biggest sin of all is to bring the whole f*cking sh*tshow into disrepute. In such circumstances, some poor b*stard who didn't understand the (real) rules and went "too far" (e.g. Harold Shipman) can get disowned and left to swing (eventually).

    @CycleFree - you are naive.
    I am not sure Shipman is the best example to demonstrate your point. He was a calculating narcissistic serial killer, who expertly covered his tracks. I would have gone with Sharon Shoesmith
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,883
    FPT... "Wills" had a 1198 Corse S then a very early 2012 Panigale which was sicc. Then he had a Ducati HyperRetard which was not. Then some shit Triumphs (obvs couldn't have the heir riding round on a spaghetti rocket as Brexit bore down upon us). Now nothing. Fuck that guy.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Westie said:

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and the victims.

    Authorities will always protect their own. Those at the top know this and encourage it. Why? Because it would be bad for morale if they didn't.

    Same story for social workers, customs officers, medics, etc.

    The biggest sin of all is to bring the whole f*cking sh*tshow into disrepute. In such circumstances, some poor b*stard who didn't understand the (real) rules and went "too far" (e.g. Harold Shipman) can get disowned and left to swing (eventually).

    @CycleFree - you are naive.
    I am not sure Shipman is the best example to demonstrate your point. He was a calculating narcissistic serial killer, who expertly covered his tracks. I would have gone with Sharon Shoesmith
    IIRC Shipman could be ‘very difficult’ when challenged about his prescribing.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589

    Foxy said:

    It's not very impressive from Kemi so far this.

    She talks a good job, which seems to be all that is needed for an onward and upward Government career trajectory.
    She talks well and tickles all the right wing erogenous zones, but not much substance or achievement as far as I can see.
    You could write that about most of the next set of runners and riders for Tory Party leader.

    I still haven't come to terms with the idea (courtesy of PB a couple of days ago) that Oliver Dowden is even a vague consideration for future Prime Minister.
    Its possible that its now so difficult to achieve something without upsetting too many vested interests that its politically safer to do nothing when in office.
    If that is true perhaps we need to look at the source of the problem. I would look first at root and branch reform of "free press" accountability. Caught wilfully lying and a truly independent regulatory body subjects each lie to a seven figure penalty.

    I am all for a free press but not one that lies egregiously, self regulates, and applies minimal sanction to itself.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    I'd have stopped at word five.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Sean_F said:

    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.

    Two awkward bits of human/British psyche combining in an unhealthy way.

    We (and I suspect this is fundamentally human but worse in Britain) don't like external checks and balances. So the Post Office, Ofsted etc get to mark their own homework and don't pick up on small fixable issues.

    Then there's the "off with their heads tendency", strengthened by the (fairly unique) British press. To admit getting anything wrong is to invite ridicule and career death. No wonder people clam up.

    Goodness knows what we do about it.
    I’ve no reason to doubt that these scandals are replicated in the USA, France, Italy, Belgium etc. That suggests it’s deeply rooted in human nature.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Excellent piece as usual from Mrs @Cyclefree.

    As someone who works on IT projects for a living, everyone involved in this scandal gives the industry a bad name, and they all need to be held accountable for their actions.

    Some background that’s missing from the piece, is that one of the key justifications for the Horizon system, as far as the PO was concerned, was to better be able to identify internal fraud. When the “fraud” started to be identified, everyone was cheering that the system was working as planned, and no-one was questioning whether the numbers added up.

    I am on record as saying that non-violent criminals shouldn’t really end up in prison, but the decision-makers here are an exception. 59 deaths so far, many of which were suicides related to the prosecutions.

    Organisations such as the Post Office (and the RSPCA, and other such quangoes) should not have powers to raise prosecutions themselves. An independent CPS looking thought the evidence, might have realised the problems much sooner.

    The conclusions of the piece are spot-on, the machinery of government needs to speed up compensation efforts, and MPs need to keep on at ministers until this happens. We’ve seen in recent years, just how quickly government can actually get sh!t done in an emergency.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    No, the only twats are the Liverpudlians.

    No-one else shares this level of bitterness and rage against the world, no matter how grave the injustice. They're not the only people who've been wronged in the past.

    It's just become part of their identity. One they're only too happy to indulge in.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    Foxy said:

    It's not very impressive from Kemi so far this.

    She talks a good job, which seems to be all that is needed for an onward and upward Government career trajectory.
    She talks well and tickles all the right wing erogenous zones, but not much substance or achievement as far as I can see.
    You could write that about most of the next set of runners and riders for Tory Party leader.

    I still haven't come to terms with the idea (courtesy of PB a couple of days ago) that Oliver Dowden is even a vague consideration for future Prime Minister.
    Its possible that its now so difficult to achieve something without upsetting too many vested interests that its politically safer to do nothing when in office.
    If that is true perhaps we need to look at the source of the problem. I would look first at root and branch reform of "free press" accountability. Caught wilfully lying and a truly independent regulatory body subjects each lie to a seven figure penalty.

    I am all for a free press but not one that lies egregiously, self regulates, and applies minimal sanction to itself.
    Don't really think the problem in the post master thing is the press however....

    Like most scandals of this type there is a simple calculation going on

    This is happening and it shouldn't be but if I raise the issue I will be shunted out the way and ignored, whereas if I ignore it then either a) it will never come to light or b) it will come to light but I will be looked after for not rocking the boat.

    The calculation should be....I know about this, I should raise it else when it comes out I will be held culpable for saying nothing and lose my job without a golden goodbye and possibly serve jail time for the cover up.

    Until we make it too costly for the individual to join in a cover up then they will continue to happen.

    Currently assisting the cover up is the sensible thing to do for most people
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    It’s not just Hillsborough though. Liverpool’s decline as a city was mainly down to appalling industrial relations and terrible local councillors. And, that was the responsibility of Liverpudlians.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    I'd have stopped at word five.
    Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    There are a number of questions which an MP with a bit of gumption - or the press - should be asking in the Commons PDQ of the Business Secretary:-

    1. Did the relevant Minister in the Business Department know of the Post Office bonus scheme?

    2. Did they approve it?

    3. Why and on what basis?

    4. Was anyone in the Business Department made aware of what was being said about it in the Accounts?

    5. Did they ask about the judge's approval and, if so, what was said?

    6. Has legal advice been obtained or is it being obtained about whether or not any offence has been committed contrary to either s.2 (fraud by false representation) or S.4 (fraud by abuse of position) of the Fraud Act 2006?

    7. If not, why not?

    I am a little surprised that the judge has not referred the issue of a possible offence against the Fraud Act for further investigation. Of course that would mean that the Board would need to resign but why would that be a bad thing?
  • A powerful and sobering header. One can only hope that this time it will be different and the appropriate heads will roll. Probably not gonna happen.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Westie said:

    Sean_F said:

    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.

    Which, if it is that widespread, suggests its more about human psychology and that there's a pressing need to incentivise the right behaviours by design, because the wrong ones will be by default.
    You can't reform the system. Just kick it till it breaks.
    What's that going to achieve?

    Every system exhibits this behaviour; it's a group loyalty thing where it's simply not in the interests of anyone inside the institution to carry the can, because they fear they might all be damaged, and no one individual wants to volunteer for to be the scapegoat, so they don't.

    Incentives for the right behaviours inside the insitution, and checks and balances outside, need to be put in place.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    No, the only twats are the Liverpudlians.

    No-one else shares this level of bitterness and rage against the world, no matter how grave the injustice. They're not the only people who've been wronged in the past.

    It's just become part of their identity. One they're only too happy to indulge in.
    That's an unacceptable and cheap, nasty stereotype. It makes as much sense as Jeremy Corbyn identifying Labour MPs who happen to be Jewish as complicit in the Palestinian crisis. The distance thus, between yourself and Jeremy Corbyn is but a short step
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    A powerful and sobering header. One can only hope that this time it will be different and the appropriate heads will roll. Probably not gonna happen.

    Heads will definitely roll, just won't be the right heads. Some junior employees will be found to be ones that caused it all and they will be publicly excoriated and sacrificed, that is usually the way of things.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589
    edited May 2023

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    No, the only twats are the Liverpudlians.

    No-one else shares this level of bitterness and rage against the world, no matter how grave the injustice. They're not the only people who've been wronged in the past.

    It's just become part of their identity. One they're only too happy to indulge in.
    That's an unacceptable and cheap, nasty stereotype. It makes as much sense as Jeremy Corbyn identifying Labour MPs who happen to be Jewish as complicit in the Palestinian crisis. The distance thus, between yourself and Jeremy Corbyn is but a short step
    Casino has just given me my first ever "flag" . The above post is your opportunity for a second, fill yer boots!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Sean_F said:

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    It’s not just Hillsborough though. Liverpool’s decline as a city was mainly down to appalling industrial relations and terrible local councillors. And, that was the responsibility of Liverpudlians.
    The only thing you get from Liverpudlians any time you point out their behaviour to them is "Hillsborough" and raw abuse.

    One can only conclude that being wronged against has become part of their culture, probably to avoid having to face up to their own failings, and they channel a secret hatred of themselves into rage at others.

    Because it is a legitimate grievance "Hillsborough" is enough of a justification for it to last several generations.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 775
    DavidL said:

    The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.

    Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.

    The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?

    I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.

    Have you read The Great Post Office Scandal by Nick Miller? It goes into some depth about the failure of the software itself and alleges some pretty egregious behaviour on the part of Fujitsu. As I recall, it starts with Fujitsu bidding low to win a contract to make the benefits system digital, to be administered by the Post Office. Eventually, that was scrapped but they kept some plans for digitising Post Office accounts. Fujitsu built some very rickety code as a proof of concept but then pretty much just used their proof of concept model and rolled it out. The problem was that, apparently (I'm not a computer guy), it was a buggy mess and no one really understood large sections of code. There was a specific bug that caused much of the problem, but I'm afraid I've forgotten the ins and outs of it.

    The problem the Sub post masters had was that their contracts made them liable for any losses, regardless of fault. They were told not to keep personal records because the software was more accurate and would be the only accounts accepted by the Post Office (some continued to keep shadow books). So, when the software started throwing errors it looked like there were huge deficits in the accounts of many sub post masters. The sub post masters then came under huge pressure to make good the losses and were unable to, nor could they account for the losses.

    The software gave sub post masters the option to 'zero' their discrepancies so that they could submit the accounts to the central system, and they did so on the advice of Fujitsu tech support. These accounts were false, and their submission a crime. This was used by the Post Office, acting as prosecutor, to leverage confessions to other crimes, promising that if they did so, there would not be any custodial sentences (not in their power to gift, of course).

    All in all, it's a perfect example of that saying that a tragedy happens when one thing goes wrong but a disaster happens when everything goes wrong (including the callous behaviour of, as Cyclefree details, the Post Office, Fujitsu, the Government etc).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    I'd have stopped at word five.
    Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
    Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Flanner said:

    It's simply untrue to assert, as Cyclefree does, that wrongly charged subpostmasters had "no obvious representative to speak for them, no-one to whom they – collectively – matter.

    The National Federation of Subpostmasters (NFSP) exists for precisely that purpose. And Colin Baker, its General Secretary at the time the scandal began to emerge - now retired - has publicly confirmed the NFSP's, and Baker's, complicity in helping the Post Office, and Labour and Tory governments, lie about the system's inadequacy.
    https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252527837/Subpostmaster-federation-deliberately-kept-public-in-dark-over-computer-problems-secret)

    Baker, like many senior Post Office managers, thought Horizon was so essential to the future of post offices that propagandising for it was more important than the risk of false imprisonment.

    The Federation is a strange beast, part trade union, part trade association. So it would have been concerned about protecting the reputation of the network and maintaining its business, as well as representing individuals. Because it does a fair bit of joint lobbying with the PO, I suspect the truth is that the people at the top on both sides got rather too close.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Pagan2 said:

    A powerful and sobering header. One can only hope that this time it will be different and the appropriate heads will roll. Probably not gonna happen.

    Heads will definitely roll, just won't be the right heads. Some junior employees will be found to be ones that caused it all and they will be publicly excoriated and sacrificed, that is usually the way of things.
    If Vennels doesn’t serve time, then the justice system has failed those who died.

    This scandal evolved over a number of years, it wasn’t (cf. Hillsborough) an event that happened, where decisions needed to be made in minutes. There was plenty of time for the senior PO executives to ask the right questions.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,093
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.

    Two awkward bits of human/British psyche combining in an unhealthy way.

    We (and I suspect this is fundamentally human but worse in Britain) don't like external checks and balances. So the Post Office, Ofsted etc get to mark their own homework and don't pick up on small fixable issues.

    Then there's the "off with their heads tendency", strengthened by the (fairly unique) British press. To admit getting anything wrong is to invite ridicule and career death. No wonder people clam up.

    Goodness knows what we do about it.
    I’ve no reason to doubt that these scandals are replicated in the USA, France, Italy, Belgium etc. That suggests it’s deeply rooted in human nature.
    A very large chunk of it undoubtedly is fallen human nature... Original Sin, if you like. My musing is more about whether some of the distinctive aspects of British public life (nowhere else really has a press like the UK, for example, or a very unitary winner-takes-all polity) act as an effective check on that, or make matters worse.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    edited May 2023
    Cyclefree said:

    There are a number of questions which an MP with a bit of gumption - or the press - should be asking in the Commons PDQ of the Business Secretary:-

    1. Did the relevant Minister in the Business Department know of the Post Office bonus scheme?

    2. Did they approve it?

    3. Why and on what basis?

    4. Was anyone in the Business Department made aware of what was being said about it in the Accounts?

    5. Did they ask about the judge's approval and, if so, what was said?

    6. Has legal advice been obtained or is it being obtained about whether or not any offence has been committed contrary to either s.2 (fraud by false representation) or S.4 (fraud by abuse of position) of the Fraud Act 2006?

    7. If not, why not?

    I am a little surprised that the judge has not referred the issue of a possible offence against the Fraud Act for further investigation. Of course that would mean that the Board would need to resign but why would that be a bad thing?

    When I was in charge of their bonus schemes, they didn't run like that. Both short and long-term incentives for the senior managers were based on business- and business-unit performance, with objective-based bonuses existing only for managers at much more junior levels. In the latter case, it's a tricky one, since if they had posts where the bulk of their work is preparing data for the inquiry, what else can you set as work objectives? But the payments that are being challenged appear to be objective-based ones for the top people, and I can only assume that at some point since the Counters business separated from the Mails businesses during privatisation, they've introduced a different type of incentive arrangement.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    No, the only twats are the Liverpudlians.

    No-one else shares this level of bitterness and rage against the world, no matter how grave the injustice. They're not the only people who've been wronged in the past.

    It's just become part of their identity. One they're only too happy to indulge in.
    That's an unacceptable and cheap, nasty stereotype. It makes as much sense as Jeremy Corbyn identifying Labour MPs who happen to be Jewish as complicit in the Palestinian crisis. The distance thus, between yourself and Jeremy Corbyn is but a short step
    Casino has just given me my first ever "flag" . The above post is your opportunity for a second, fill yer boots!
    Totally off the wall stuff.

    I will keep calling out their bad behaviour (not all) - and I don't retract a single word of what I've said.

    I think I've got the culture bang-on; they can't brook a single word of criticism, and the whole rest of the country is utterly turned off by it. No-one else who's been wronged behaves in this way.

    It's in their interests for this to be pointed out to them, and to shake themselves out of it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    I'd have stopped at word five.
    Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
    Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
    Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.

    We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,853
    What a great piece. This huge scandal hasn't received a fraction of the attention it merits.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    DavidL said:

    The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.

    Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.

    The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?

    I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.

    I am not being harsh on the lawyers. Read the Altman review.

    I have been an in-house lawyer in charge of the investigations team. I understand very well the pressures and the fine line you have to tread, the absolute imperative of establishing the facts - not simply accepting what you are told and resisting pressure from senior management to come up with convenient answers. It is not easy. It can leave you a bit lonely and exposed and it can sometimes not be great for your career advancement, bluntly.

    Investigators should never be prosecutors.

    But the reality here is that from quite an early stage there were IT people and lawyers and others, both inside and outside the Post Office, who were pointing out the problems and were being ignored. They were ignored because the Post Office chose to believe what they wanted to be true. I also understand that the Japanese government lobbied for Fujitsu even after it became apparent that they had cocked up on a grand scale.

    Nick Wallis's book and blog on this is worth reading. Paul Marshall and Richard Moorhead on the legal aspects and the role of the lawyers are also worth following.

    In most miscarriages of justice there will have been failings by the lawyers. These tend to get overlooked because there is usually also some other more obvious villain. But we should not let the lawyers off the hook - and certainly not in this case.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.

    Two awkward bits of human/British psyche combining in an unhealthy way.

    We (and I suspect this is fundamentally human but worse in Britain) don't like external checks and balances. So the Post Office, Ofsted etc get to mark their own homework and don't pick up on small fixable issues.

    Then there's the "off with their heads tendency", strengthened by the (fairly unique) British press. To admit getting anything wrong is to invite ridicule and career death. No wonder people clam up.

    Goodness knows what we do about it.
    I’ve no reason to doubt that these scandals are replicated in the USA, France, Italy, Belgium etc. That suggests it’s deeply rooted in human nature.
    A very large chunk of it undoubtedly is fallen human nature... Original Sin, if you like. My musing is more about whether some of the distinctive aspects of British public life (nowhere else really has a press like the UK, for example, or a very unitary winner-takes-all polity) act as an effective check on that, or make matters worse.
    That’s difficult to judge. I do scratch my head at why so often, people are callous when doing the right thing (eg towards the Chagossians) would cost very little.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    I'd have stopped at word five.
    Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
    Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
    Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.

    We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
    Why do PB allow you to write such prejudicial nonsense without sanction? You wouldn't stereotype a specific race or creed, so why is it acceptable for the citizens of a city you don't like to be slandered by you?

    Anyway off to polish my "flag".
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.

    Two awkward bits of human/British psyche combining in an unhealthy way.

    We (and I suspect this is fundamentally human but worse in Britain) don't like external checks and balances. So the Post Office, Ofsted etc get to mark their own homework and don't pick up on small fixable issues.

    Then there's the "off with their heads tendency", strengthened by the (fairly unique) British press. To admit getting anything wrong is to invite ridicule and career death. No wonder people clam up.

    Goodness knows what we do about it.
    I’ve no reason to doubt that these scandals are replicated in the USA, France, Italy, Belgium etc. That suggests it’s deeply rooted in human nature.
    A very large chunk of it undoubtedly is fallen human nature... Original Sin, if you like. My musing is more about whether some of the distinctive aspects of British public life (nowhere else really has a press like the UK, for example, or a very unitary winner-takes-all polity) act as an effective check on that, or make matters worse.
    That’s difficult to judge. I do scratch my head at why so often, people are callous when doing the right thing (eg towards the Chagossians) would cost very little.
    The only real conclusion one can draw is that, at some level, people quite enjoy it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    I'd have stopped at word five.
    Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
    Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
    Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.

    We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
    Not like you to be judgemental about slavery and the British Empire.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.

    Two awkward bits of human/British psyche combining in an unhealthy way.

    We (and I suspect this is fundamentally human but worse in Britain) don't like external checks and balances. So the Post Office, Ofsted etc get to mark their own homework and don't pick up on small fixable issues.

    Then there's the "off with their heads tendency", strengthened by the (fairly unique) British press. To admit getting anything wrong is to invite ridicule and career death. No wonder people clam up.

    Goodness knows what we do about it.
    I’ve no reason to doubt that these scandals are replicated in the USA, France, Italy, Belgium etc. That suggests it’s deeply rooted in human nature.
    Well, no, it suggests that you reach a conclusion merely because you've no reason to doubt it. I've no reason to doubt that there is life on Alpha Centauri, but that doesn't mean there is.

    I lived in Demark and Switzerland for over 30 years. Both countries have a very strong ethos of "correct behaviour" (which makes Switzerland in particular open to accusations of conformism). There was the occasional controversy asbout how a particular Minister or agency behaved, but I don't remember anything like this.

    I agree with Stuart's analysis, but also I think that politics in Britain is unhealthily driven by what the media seize on, and this scandal is curiously un-newsworthy. People scattered around the country were maligned and ruined, but no one community where you could make a story out of interviewing dozens of victims. People died prematurely - stress, even suicide - but nobody died instantly, unlike a train crash or an explosion. The reasons sound technical and complex - something about a computer system. You can kind of see why journalists mostly move on - but that shouldn't be a reason for the political establishment to shrug it off. There's something called doing one's job, rather than just reacting to the media.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589
    Can someone please have a quiet word with Casino? I don't believe his offensive monologue about Liverpudlians is in the spirit of the site.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    Can someone please have a quiet word with Casino? I don't believe his offensive monologue about Liverpudlians is in the spirit of the site.

    You want to cancel me?

    How interesting your commitment to free speech is only skin-deep.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    Good morning all. Well after a warm sunny Sunday, a wet and grey Bank Holiday Monday. A day for doing nothing.

    However, I will be cheered up if the Mackems fail to make the playoffs. Bad enough that the Smoggies are there already.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,493

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    I'd have stopped at word five.
    Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
    Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
    Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.

    We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
    Why do PB allow you to write such prejudicial nonsense without sanction? You wouldn't stereotype a specific race or creed, so why is it acceptable for the citizens of a city you don't like to be slandered by you?

    Anyway off to polish my "flag".
    Be careful. Blockleiter Casino Royale will have you on one of his spreadsheets next - a kind of digital Sonderfahndungsliste G.B.

    Before you know it you’ll be in the Mathew Street ghetto.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589
    edited May 2023

    Can someone please have a quiet word with Casino? I don't believe his offensive monologue about Liverpudlians is in the spirit of the site.

    You want to cancel me?

    How interesting your commitment to free speech is only skin-deep.
    I believe Abu Hamza style hate speech should be sanctioned. I haven't asked for a ban, just a "quiet word".
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 583

    Can someone please have a quiet word with Casino? I don't believe his offensive monologue about Liverpudlians is in the spirit of the site.

    You want to cancel me?

    How interesting your commitment to free speech is only skin-deep.
    You shouldnt be cancelled - just recognised as an obnoxious irrelevant bigot
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Is it indifference, or is it malice?

    Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.

    The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.

    Two awkward bits of human/British psyche combining in an unhealthy way.

    We (and I suspect this is fundamentally human but worse in Britain) don't like external checks and balances. So the Post Office, Ofsted etc get to mark their own homework and don't pick up on small fixable issues.

    Then there's the "off with their heads tendency", strengthened by the (fairly unique) British press. To admit getting anything wrong is to invite ridicule and career death. No wonder people clam up.

    Goodness knows what we do about it.
    I’ve no reason to doubt that these scandals are replicated in the USA, France, Italy, Belgium etc. That suggests it’s deeply rooted in human nature.
    Well, no, it suggests that you reach a conclusion merely because you've no reason to doubt it. I've no reason to doubt that there is life on Alpha Centauri, but that doesn't mean there is.

    I lived in Demark and Switzerland for over 30 years. Both countries have a very strong ethos of "correct behaviour" (which makes Switzerland in particular open to accusations of conformism). There was the occasional controversy asbout how a particular Minister or agency behaved, but I don't remember anything like this.

    I agree with Stuart's analysis, but also I think that politics in Britain is unhealthily driven by what the media seize on, and this scandal is curiously un-newsworthy. People scattered around the country were maligned and ruined, but no one community where you could make a story out of interviewing dozens of victims. People died prematurely - stress, even suicide - but nobody died instantly, unlike a train crash or an explosion. The reasons sound technical and complex - something about a computer system. You can kind of see why journalists mostly move on - but that shouldn't be a reason for the political establishment to shrug it off. There's something called doing one's job, rather than just reacting to the media.
    The British media may will be unhealthy in some ways, but I think it's actually easier to get away with certain kinds of corruption in Germany, where there is a big emphasis on maintaining consensus and not rocking the boat. See how proud some people in Cologne are of the local corruption which is called the 'Kölsche Klüngel'. Trying to get local media interested in blatant corruption is impossible if it involves the 'right' people.

    This article makes it sound like something unique to Cologne, but it isn't:

    https://www.welt.de/regionales/nrw/article161682095/Warum-die-Koelner-ihren-Kluengel-so-lieben.html
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    Can someone please have a quiet word with Casino? I don't believe his offensive monologue about Liverpudlians is in the spirit of the site.

    You want to cancel me?

    How interesting your commitment to free speech is only skin-deep.
    I believe Abu Hamza style hate speech should be sanctioned. I haven't asked for a ban, just a "quiet word".
    Abu Hamza hate speech.

    You truly are deranged aren't you?

    I expressed a view. You called me a twat, which actually is offensive. You then demanded I was censored.

    The only person who needs to have a "quiet word" is you with yourself.

    You wouldn't be this hypersensitive if you didn't secretly know there was something in it.

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    I'm very disappointed not to have yet read a concerted attempt to blame SKS for the failure to prosecute in the PO scandal. Surely, as DPP during some of the relevant time, it's all SKS's fault?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    I'd have stopped at word five.
    Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
    Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
    Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.

    We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
    Just because you didn't get a ticket for Eurovision...
    Darn, my cover is blown.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,282

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    How many lives could have been saved at Heysel if so many Liverpool fans weren’t drunken, homicidal louts?

    It’s incredible how much Liverpool FC witters on about Hillsborough (which was undeniably awful) yet NEVER mentions Heysel. It’s not like they were
    centuries apart
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    Leon said:

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    How many lives could have been saved at Heysel if so many Liverpool fans weren’t drunken, homicidal louts?

    It’s incredible how much Liverpool FC witters on about Hillsborough (which was undeniably awful) yet NEVER mentions Heysel. It’s not like they were
    centuries apart
    Shit for brains Sean pops up.

    The difference is Liverpool fans did serve time in prison for Heysel.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    edited May 2023

    Good morning all. Well after a warm sunny Sunday, a wet and grey Bank Holiday Monday. A day for doing nothing.

    However, I will be cheered up if the Mackems fail to make the playoffs. Bad enough that the Smoggies are there already.

    Yep, the Boro are heading back to the Premier League to whop the arses of the Saudis on behalf of humanitarians across the globe.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Sean_F said:

    This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.

    No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.

    Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
    You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.

    At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.

    Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
    It’s not just Hillsborough though. Liverpool’s decline as a city was mainly down to appalling industrial relations and terrible local councillors. And, that was the responsibility of Liverpudlians.
    The only thing you get from Liverpudlians any time you point out their behaviour to them is "Hillsborough" and raw abuse.

    One can only conclude that being wronged against has become part of their culture, probably to avoid having to face up to their own failings, and they channel a secret hatred of themselves into rage at others.

    Because it is a legitimate grievance "Hillsborough" is enough of a justification for it to last several generations.
    Liverpool is a city and culture that revels in its victim status and uses it as a shield for why it's such a shit hole rather than looking within at their own failings and voting in politicians who are knowingly corrupt but because they have the correct colour rosette they win by default. It's always someone else's fault, never their own fault for, you know, being chronically lazy and unemployed.
This discussion has been closed.