The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
...In most miscarriages of justice there will have been failings by the lawyers. These tend to get overlooked because there is usually also some other more obvious villain. But we should not let the lawyers off the hook - and certainly not in this case.
It's very hard to see how lawyers involved were not fully aware they were knowingly misleading the courts. Their duty of honesty overrides any duty towards their clients. At the very least, some ought to be losing their license to practice.
Morning everyone. How is work going this dreary Monday morning?
PB Brains Trust.
What is the best Greek Island for a family break (4 yr old kid)? Sandy beach and decent hotel/resort.
So many imponderables!
Do you want
1 an airport for direct flights? 2 some history/culture or just sun and sea (no shame in that)? 3 to avoid mass tourism or be part of the crowds? 4 greenery and woods or classic whitewashed towns and windmills? 5 fashionable or don’t care?
1 Yes. 2 some history though we do have a young son so tricky terrain is probably a no-no. 3 don’t mind but not too crowded. 4 the later. 5 Not bothered.
Our first major vacation since kiddo was born so something memorable!
Then I would go for Rhodes. It has all those. There are a few tacky/crowded areas but drive a couple of miles and you can find sweet fishing towns which aren’t TOO touristy
And Rhodes City is a wonder. A beautiful complete medieval town. Again you won’t exactly be alone but it is still somehow magical
You’ll need to hire a car for a day or two to see some of the lonelier temples/lovelier castles
I'd skip the direct flight requirement and take a ferry from the island airport, which for the price of an hour or so at sea will deliver you a more characterful, less crowded experience. My recs would be Simi or Kalymnos.
Software does not make mistakes, the people that wrote it do.
So why are they not in prison?
All software has bugs, it’s the nature of the beast.
That’s not a liability for the developers, that’s a liability for those in charge of deploying it with insufficient testing, from both the vendor and the customer.
Even more so, it’s a liability for those who used the software to harass and prosecute people, while at the same time ignoring evidence from the software developers that there might be serious problems with it.
Software has bugs because of the people that wrote it.
At what point do the people that wrote it, not he held accountable for not doing anything about it? They should be held accountable, if innocent then fine. But they've never been tried.
At some point the senior management angle doesn't wash.
And I am a Software Engineer.
Every software company I’ve ever worked for, or being involved with, has a robust system of QA and sign off process, for anything that sees a customer. The customer, when of sufficient size, will also have their own QA and project management, that decides on the final deployment schedule.
In this case, the issue is not that the software had bugs - because all software has bugs, no matter how much QA gets done on it. The issue is that the output from the software was used uncritically to prosecute people, and that several different layers of management - with both the vendor and customer - were testifying in court that the output was accurate, at the same time as internal discussions were raising concerns about the data.
That’s a cover-up and potentially perjury - although I’m sure that those actually testifying in court were kept sufficiently in the dark, so as to be able to defend themselves against a direct perjury charge.
Software does not make mistakes, the people that wrote it do.
So why are they not in prison?
All software has bugs, it’s the nature of the beast.
That’s not a liability for the developers, that’s a liability for those in charge of deploying it with insufficient testing, from both the vendor and the customer.
Even more so, it’s a liability for those who used the software to harass and prosecute people, while at the same time ignoring evidence from the software developers that there might be serious problems with it.
Software has bugs because of the people that wrote it.
At what point do the people that wrote it, not he held accountable for not doing anything about it? They should be held accountable, if innocent then fine. But they've never been tried.
At some point the senior management angle doesn't wash.
And I am a Software Engineer.
As you'll know, modern software is not 'written' by one person - at least not usually. It is written by a team, and it *should* then go through some form of QA team, who will then say it is okay to be released. Then a manager presses the Big Red button and it goes live.
If the person/team writing the software makes a mistake, is he liable if that mistake was not picked up by QA? But why should the QA team be blamed for their mistake in not picking up on it?
IMV it's a different matter if a bug is known about, but management decides to let the release go ahead with the bug present - and especially if they choose not to document the bug (this does happen).
As an example: should the poor sod who wrote the code in the classic Therac-25 tragedy be blamed for the resultant deaths? IMV no. That was a corporate balls-up.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
How many lives could have been saved at Heysel if so many Liverpool fans weren’t drunken, homicidal louts?
It’s incredible how much Liverpool FC witters on about Hillsborough (which was undeniably awful) yet NEVER mentions Heysel. It’s not like they were centuries apart
Shit for brains Sean pops up.
The difference is Liverpool fans did serve time in prison for Heysel.
I’m not Sean
The point I’m making is that you NEVER mention Heysel. Ever. Like it never happened
Your team and its often loathsome fans has a bad reputation everywhere for a reason: you killed nearly 40 people out of sheer drunken thuggery
Liverpool FC fans may not mention it but the blue half of the city have footballing reasons to mention it more than most, and do…
Lol. Yes indeed. The Tories have reached a point where being able to stand still for a couple of hours in fancy dress is enough to become a prime candidate for leader.
The point is: there’s such a lack of obvious talent just the tiniest hint of charisma has made Mordaunt a contender
I’m being accused of making a “Tory argument” when in fact I’m addressing the dearth of talent in the party
Labour really does not have much to fear if the bar for a Tory leader now is wears a nice dress and holds a sword.
I really thought the Tories might do a bit of introspection after the LEs but it feels like they're very much now in an end of Corbyn phase where they just attack everyone else for calling out how ridiculous they're being. This really is not the sign of a Government that will be re-elected and not something I've really seen from the Tories in recent elections.
The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
This feels right. I suspect the managers probably did initially think the staff, not the software was at fault. Then they doubled down long after there was doubt and subsequent actual evidence that the staff were falsely accused.
One of the many things about this that seems odd to me is why the sheer amount of supposedly 'fraudulent' sub postmasters (both the absolute number and as a percentage of the total) thrown up by the system didn't trigger alarm bells as to whether the system was working as it should.
When you audit something, as well as getting immersed in the detail you're supposed to elevate above it at some point and ask yourself, "Ok but does this picture as a whole make sense?" This does not seem to have happened.
Maybe they took it as a sign that the system *was* working as it should?
After all, the old system was so ramshackle that they had no baseline measure for the actual level of fraud.
Morning everyone. How is work going this dreary Monday morning?
PB Brains Trust.
What is the best Greek Island for a family break (4 yr old kid)? Sandy beach and decent hotel/resort.
So many imponderables!
Do you want
1 an airport for direct flights? 2 some history/culture or just sun and sea (no shame in that)? 3 to avoid mass tourism or be part of the crowds? 4 greenery and woods or classic whitewashed towns and windmills? 5 fashionable or don’t care?
1 Yes. 2 some history though we do have a young son so tricky terrain is probably a no-no. 3 don’t mind but not too crowded. 4 the later. 5 Not bothered.
Our first major vacation since kiddo was born so something memorable!
Then I would go for Rhodes. It has all those. There are a few tacky/crowded areas but drive a couple of miles and you can find sweet fishing towns which aren’t TOO touristy
And Rhodes City is a wonder. A beautiful complete medieval town. Again you won’t exactly be alone but it is still somehow magical
You’ll need to hire a car for a day or two to see some of the lonelier temples/lovelier castles
+1 for Rhodes - if you find somewhere more to the bottom end, away from the airport, then it's not too busy (although my experience on that is >10 years out of date). Some nice sandy beaches in the south too, but also some stoney ones, so check. Not sure about hotels/resorts, I only stayed a couple of times in a friend's place.
FFS, she held a sword for half an hour and wore a nice dress. The Tory Party voted against her TWICE!
You lot really are going to lose in a landslide if you think this is the solution, not the policies or ideas, or any of the other people. You've been in Government far too long.
I’m not a Tory and I’m not “in government”. I’m a humble flint knapper that makes political observations and predictions. And one such prediction was just after the Corrie when I said “Mordaunt has really raised her profile and will now be a leading candidate to take over from him”
This has nowt to do with her political capabilities - you are quite right that holding a sword for an hour in a nice dress does not make you Abraham Lincoln. But we live in a televisual age of social media virality
Software does not make mistakes, the people that wrote it do.
So why are they not in prison?
All software has bugs, it’s the nature of the beast.
That’s not a liability for the developers, that’s a liability for those in charge of deploying it with insufficient testing, from both the vendor and the customer.
Even more so, it’s a liability for those who used the software to harass and prosecute people, while at the same time ignoring evidence from the software developers that there might be serious problems with it.
Software has bugs because of the people that wrote it.
At what point do the people that wrote it, not he held accountable for not doing anything about it? They should be held accountable, if innocent then fine. But they've never been tried.
At some point the senior management angle doesn't wash.
And I am a Software Engineer.
As you'll know, modern software is not 'written' by one person - at least not usually. It is written by a team, and it *should* then go through some form of QA team, who will then say it is okay to be released. Then a manager presses the Big Red button and it goes live.
If the person/team writing the software makes a mistake, is he liable if that mistake was not picked up by QA? But why should the QA team be blamed for their mistake in not picking up on it?
IMV it's a different matter if a bug is known about, but management decides to let the release go ahead with the bug present - and especially if they choose not to document the bug (this does happen).
As an example: should the poor sod who wrote the code in the classic Therac-25 tragedy be blamed for the resultant deaths? IMV no. That was a corporate balls-up.
(I hope I've remembered the Therac=25 circs correctly...)
Until everyone from bottom to top is tried, we will never know. That's the point, there's never been a proper inquiry to establish where the blame actually starts as far as I understand it.
I expect the people that wrote the code would be found totally innocent as you said - but we don't know because it has never been established.
I just find it hard to believe that nobody in the engineering team, or the QA team, knew what was going on.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Why do PB allow you to write such prejudicial nonsense without sanction? You wouldn't stereotype a specific race or creed, so why is it acceptable for the citizens of a city you don't like to be slandered by you?
Anyway off to polish my "flag".
I am describing the culture of the city. And I have said not all are like that, but many are.
I was very offended and insulted by the behaviour of Liverpool fans booing the national anthem the day before yesterday. Hillsborough was and is a scandal, that is for sure, and it needs redressing, but (honestly?) I think even if it were this wouldn't go away. No redress would never be enough and/or that legitimate grievance would be replaced by something else in the victim culture: class, snobbery, Fatch etc. There is something profoundly illogical here. The Royal Family had nothing to do with it - they are just a symbol and following through on that by targetting them has made them look disloyal, angry, aggressive and disrespectful and upset a lot of people.
I am now disinclined to lift a finger to help them - unlike I would for Aberfan and the Post Office scandal - which will no doubt reinforce their grievance. So the most likely outcome is that this goes on and on. I think it's important the facts and behaviour are called out so a change can be made.
Think about it.
The people of Liverpool are utterly distraught that you "are disinclined to lift a finger to help them". How will they cope?
By trying to ban me and call me a bigot, it seems.
Banning you would mean we can't ridicule you. Where's the fun in that?
I don't mind a bit of ridicule. It's probably healthy at some level.
I do mind the T and C word a bit though, and being called a bigot. We're better than that.
This subject seems to make otherwise normal people totally irrational.
You are a bit bigoted, though. You hate people who arent ultra monarchists, poor people, Scousers, Vegans, eco-activists, anyone who votes Green. You'd see me arrested and beaten up by the police or event stewards for protesting animal rights or climate change whereas I'd be ashamed if that happened to you. Maybe more than a bit bigoted?
Err, no.
I think you just take yourself, and what I say on here, a little bit too seriously.
Fella, I'd say most people on here feel the same about you. This is the internet, it doesn't do nuance, tone and context so I'm more than willing to believe that that's not the real you, but your posts say otherwise. You sound pretty angry these days.
I use this site to vent a bit, sometimes without much/any of a filter.
It's not representative of what I'm like in real life, as several pb'ers who've met me will attest to, but we're all very interested in politics and issues on here, and it's a passionate and intense subject, and my wife can only take so much.
We all come on here to let off steam (see the Collected Works of Malcomg Esq) don’t worry about it
Tho you do seem a little more dyspeptic than usual, but you have also explained your new job is stressing you out bigtime
I am trying to do something about that.
My review gave me a high performer, and accelerated track to Partner, but at what cost?
The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
This feels right. I suspect the managers probably did initially think the staff, not the software was at fault. Then they doubled down long after there was doubt and subsequent actual evidence that the staff were falsely accused.
One of the many things about this that seems odd to me is why the sheer amount of supposedly 'fraudulent' sub postmasters (both the absolute number and as a percentage of the total) thrown up by the system didn't trigger alarm bells as to whether the system was working as it should.
When you audit something, as well as getting immersed in the detail you're supposed to elevate above it at some point and ask yourself, "Ok but does this picture as a whole make sense?" This does not seem to have happened.
The background to the project, was that the management thought there was a massive amount of fraud going on.
To them, it was all working exactly as intended, identifying loads of fraud, long after a review of the actual evidence showed that not to be the case.
The biggest failing was the doubling down from the senior management, prosecutors, and auditors. They should have, at some point, taken a step back and realised that something wasn’t quite right. Especially when numerous whistleblowers were being fired, and paid off to shut up.
The positive thing about this 'post office scandal' is that the post office got found out. It is important not to lose sight of that. I also think that the 'cancellation' of Paula Vennells will probably have a positive influence on other CEOs who may be involved in similar things.
She still a Lay Reader, a sort of an assistant priest, in the Church of England, isn’t she?
And this year‘s annual report said that it had been approved by the chairman of the enquiry, when, in fact it hadn’t. Apologies, were given but it was still a deliberate lie.
I think that this story is probably quite complicated - not so much what happened at the start (the abuse of power and miscarriage of justice) but who was responsible for what in the aftermath. Looking at the question of participation in the enquiry, this is going to be difficult. Not sure what is going on with these 'bonuses' but some remuneration is going to be involved.
I'd also challenge the idea that Vennells (or anyone else found to have 'done wrong') should be hounded out of every voluntary position they have.
One of the issues this raises, is that if you are the leader of a large organisation, there are inevitably going to be problems coming up, potentially of this magnitude. If as leader you become a lightning rod for all criticism and then get ruined when it goes wrong; whilst other people below you who are responsible for the problems plod on anonymously and protected by employment law/trade unions etc, then competent people will be put off becoming a leader.
Sorry @darkage, but while I’d agree generally, I think that if the Church is going to retain what’s left of its moral authority ‘something’ ought to be done, and seen to be done, about Vennells. I take the point, too, about defences being provided to members of trade associations, trade unions etc., but if they are guilty, then down they go.
As I understood it, she stepped down from her role as a part time Minister. I see that it would be impossible for her to carry on with that role after what happened at the post office, but I object to her being removed from any position in any organisation.
The prosections started in 2000, that is 7 years before she even joined the Post Office, and 12 years before she became CEO of it.
Point noted re her time in office, but as someone else pointed out, why didn't she, apparently, ask any questions.
Arts grad.
No particular reason to think she had the number grock to see that the figures simply didn't add up. And if the computer was saying something, who was she to question it?
(Very few people do have that sense of numbers, the ability to say "that's a real pattern", "that's noise", "that's a computer SNAFU". Cherish such people, for a lot of mistakes come from mixing those three upm)
In local government a new phenomenon in the social media age is where managers get 'forced out' by political campaigns about certain issues in response to local mobs. Often the underlying error is very minor and has no merit. What this has led to is a change from permanent employment to contracting on one weeks notice. So instead of being a manager on the local government pay scale Council's have to pay 'interim managers' 2-3 times as much to do the job. If the mobs start approaching the Councillors play along with it then the interim manager can just issue a threat to walk off to another council, leaving the work in total chaos and no one for the Councillors to blame; the positive impact of this being that Councillors are now a bit more cautious about going along with mobs.
I am seeing a similarity here to the post office situation - there is 'mob like' thinking going on and ultimately I don't think it will work out well.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Just because you didn't get a ticket for Eurovision...
You know what they say.. 1st prize 2 tickets to Eurovision 2nd prize 4 tickets to Eurovision....
What about the native Americans? What about the Chinese used as virtual slave labour in the railways? What about non black slaves? What about whites whose forefathers were slaved by Barbary pirates?
This to me looks like the ultimate example of Woke Gone Mad and perhaps the only way you could ever turn California Republican
The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
...In most miscarriages of justice there will have been failings by the lawyers. These tend to get overlooked because there is usually also some other more obvious villain. But we should not let the lawyers off the hook - and certainly not in this case.
Liverpool and Naples are treated and talked about by many in their respective countries in much the same way - with crude stereotypes and with, often, little actual knowledge of the place and its history and contribution.
I know Naples well. I spent much of my childhood and teenage years there. I speak its dialect. My family come from there. It has a long illustrious history - a kingdom, one of the great cities of Europe. It has had very hard times and has been plagued by corrupt incompetent politicians and crime and some of this is the fault of Neapolitans themselves. But not all of it. It has suffered from condescension and abuse and neglect and a sort of ugly prejudice by those not wanting to dig beneath the surface. There was a fair amount of schadenfreude amongst Neapolitans when the corruption scandals ("Operazione Mani Pulite") first erupted in Milan.
It is a great city which has done much to improve itself in recent years - wonderful art, architecture, music, food and a joie de vivre and ballsy humour which is well nigh impossible to capture in English.
Liverpool seems to me to be similar. It is possible to criticise the football fans who behaved so badly at Heysel while also feeling appalled at the way the families of the 97 fans who died at Hillsborough were treated. In part, I think they were treated in that way because of ugly prejudices and an assumption that they were milking the tragedy.
The authorities did the same to the Aberfan families. If you have not read this - https://www.cyclefree.co.uk/the-price-of-indifference/ - please do. The authorities accused those parents who petitioned for compensation higher than the £500 originally offered as “seeking to capitalize” on the tragedy.
There is an ugliness there - and it is not in the victims or their families.
On topic, what makes the issue around the bonus scheme for the Post Office Board so revolting is the fact that at the same time these people are still arguing to pay as little compensation as possible to the innocent victims.
The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
This feels right. I suspect the managers probably did initially think the staff, not the software was at fault. Then they doubled down long after there was doubt and subsequent actual evidence that the staff were falsely accused.
One of the many things about this that seems odd to me is why the sheer amount of supposedly 'fraudulent' sub postmasters (both the absolute number and as a percentage of the total) thrown up by the system didn't trigger alarm bells as to whether the system was working as it should.
When you audit something, as well as getting immersed in the detail you're supposed to elevate above it at some point and ask yourself, "Ok but does this picture as a whole make sense?" This does not seem to have happened.
If you've ever worked in any sort of big company or other large enterprise, you should know already that the ability to stand back and perceive, together with the courage to actually ask, the question that no-one wants to hear isn't remarkably commonplace.
The 'big picture reasonableness' test is core to audit & investigation though. Not as an alternative to doing the detail but as a complement to it. You're not doing the job properly if you skip it. Course all the competence in the world can be trumped or frustrated by our old friend, the root of most white collar evil, the Conflict of Interest. Which we have here in spades.
If that is qualification for high office, we'd have a cabinet full of TV weather forecasters.
Speaking as one of the more senior, but not elderly, chaps with some..er .. appreciation of her performance at the Coronation, there is also the fact, as I mentioned the other day, that she is able to carry off that combination of either more distant charisma, possibly described as mystique, and empathy, at other times.
There's not really anyone else like that in the Tory party that I can see, except possibly Rory Stewart, and they kicked him out for his views on Brexit, anyway . I expect Sunak may be reasonably secure up to the vote next year, and then, possibly, Penny.
The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
This feels right. I suspect the managers probably did initially think the staff, not the software was at fault. Then they doubled down long after there was doubt and subsequent actual evidence that the staff were falsely accused.
One of the many things about this that seems odd to me is why the sheer amount of supposedly 'fraudulent' sub postmasters (both the absolute number and as a percentage of the total) thrown up by the system didn't trigger alarm bells as to whether the system was working as it should.
When you audit something, as well as getting immersed in the detail you're supposed to elevate above it at some point and ask yourself, "Ok but does this picture as a whole make sense?" This does not seem to have happened.
Exactly this. The art of investigation is to know the detail inside out but also look at the picture as a whole. And test test test all the assumptions and statements you are making. That clearly did not happen here.
That's bad enough - but if you're also acting as prosecutor based on the results of your investigation, there ought to be a far stronger duty to do so.
Software does not make mistakes, the people that wrote it do.
So why are they not in prison?
All software has bugs, it’s the nature of the beast.
That’s not a liability for the developers, that’s a liability for those in charge of deploying it with insufficient testing, from both the vendor and the customer.
Even more so, it’s a liability for those who used the software to harass and prosecute people, while at the same time ignoring evidence from the software developers that there might be serious problems with it.
Software has bugs because of the people that wrote it.
At what point do the people that wrote it, not he held accountable for not doing anything about it? They should be held accountable, if innocent then fine. But they've never been tried.
At some point the senior management angle doesn't wash.
And I am a Software Engineer.
As you'll know, modern software is not 'written' by one person - at least not usually. It is written by a team, and it *should* then go through some form of QA team, who will then say it is okay to be released. Then a manager presses the Big Red button and it goes live.
If the person/team writing the software makes a mistake, is he liable if that mistake was not picked up by QA? But why should the QA team be blamed for their mistake in not picking up on it?
IMV it's a different matter if a bug is known about, but management decides to let the release go ahead with the bug present - and especially if they choose not to document the bug (this does happen).
As an example: should the poor sod who wrote the code in the classic Therac-25 tragedy be blamed for the resultant deaths? IMV no. That was a corporate balls-up.
(I hope I've remembered the Therac=25 circs correctly...)
Until everyone from bottom to top is tried, we will never know. That's the point, there's never been a proper inquiry to establish where the blame actually starts as far as I understand it.
I expect the people that wrote the code would be found totally innocent as you said - but we don't know because it has never been established.
I just find it hard to believe that nobody in the engineering team, or the QA team, knew what was going on.
That’s the point. The engineering team and the QA team were shouting loudly about problems, but the senior management decided instead to keep up with the prosecutions and silence the whistleblowers.
If that is qualification for high office, we'd have a cabinet full of TV weather forecasters.
Speaking as one of those chaps with some..er .. appreciation of her performance at the Coronation, there is also the fact, as I mentioned the other day, that she is able to carry off this combination of either more distant charisma, possibly described as mystique, and empathy at other times.
There's not really anyone else like that in the Tory party that I can see, except Rory Stewart, and they kicked him out, for his views on Brexit . I expect Sunak may be reasonably secure up to the vote next year, and then, possibly, Penny.
We went through this all last time, no? I and many others said she'd be good and she'd have brought back a lot of women and wavering Labour voters. The Tories dethroned her because she apparently said something a bit too left-wing once.
The issue is not her, it's the Tory Party. SKS has proved a party can be changed - but the Tory Party isn't currently changing.
Software does not make mistakes, the people that wrote it do.
So why are they not in prison?
All software has bugs, it’s the nature of the beast.
That’s not a liability for the developers, that’s a liability for those in charge of deploying it with insufficient testing, from both the vendor and the customer.
Even more so, it’s a liability for those who used the software to harass and prosecute people, while at the same time ignoring evidence from the software developers that there might be serious problems with it.
Software has bugs because of the people that wrote it.
At what point do the people that wrote it, not he held accountable for not doing anything about it? They should be held accountable, if innocent then fine. But they've never been tried.
At some point the senior management angle doesn't wash.
And I am a Software Engineer.
As you'll know, modern software is not 'written' by one person - at least not usually. It is written by a team, and it *should* then go through some form of QA team, who will then say it is okay to be released. Then a manager presses the Big Red button and it goes live.
If the person/team writing the software makes a mistake, is he liable if that mistake was not picked up by QA? But why should the QA team be blamed for their mistake in not picking up on it?
IMV it's a different matter if a bug is known about, but management decides to let the release go ahead with the bug present - and especially if they choose not to document the bug (this does happen).
As an example: should the poor sod who wrote the code in the classic Therac-25 tragedy be blamed for the resultant deaths? IMV no. That was a corporate balls-up.
(I hope I've remembered the Therac=25 circs correctly...)
Until everyone from bottom to top is tried, we will never know. That's the point, there's never been a proper inquiry to establish where the blame actually starts as far as I understand it.
I expect the people that wrote the code would be found totally innocent as you said - but we don't know because it has never been established.
I just find it hard to believe that nobody in the engineering team, or the QA team, knew what was going on.
That’s the point. The engineering team and the QA team were shouting loudly about problems, but the senior management decided instead to keep up with the prosecutions and silence the whistleblowers.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
How many lives could have been saved at Heysel if so many Liverpool fans weren’t drunken, homicidal louts?
It’s incredible how much Liverpool FC witters on about Hillsborough (which was undeniably awful) yet NEVER mentions Heysel. It’s not like they were centuries apart
Shit for brains Sean pops up.
The difference is Liverpool fans did serve time in prison for Heysel.
I’m not Sean
The point I’m making is that you NEVER mention Heysel. Ever. Like it never happened
Your team and its often loathsome fans has a bad reputation everywhere for a reason: you killed nearly 40 people out of sheer drunken thuggery
Evertonians mention Heysel all the time. The finest team in Europe (EFC 1984-7) were banned from all European competition for no reason at all. Just weeks after we'd won the Cup Winners Cup in Rotterdam with barely a hint of trouble of any kind.
The European ban on English sides felt harsh at the time, but what else could be done? Fan violence was out of control. It’s still a huge issue, although the long journey from Italia 90, including all seater stadia and an increasingly middle class feel (cost to see premier league is huge) has seen a transformation of football in the main. Scratch the surface and the idiots are still there (as seen at the Euro final in 2021). Oddly the ban led to a significant falling behind of English sides - they had dominated the European scene for a decade or more, then, after the hiatus, struggled to match the giants of Europe for many years.
What about the native Americans? What about the Chinese used as virtual slave labour in the railways? What about non black slaves? What about whites whose forefathers were slaved by Barbary pirates?
This to me looks like the ultimate example of Woke Gone Mad and perhaps the only way you could ever turn California Republican
A statistic from that article
“A Pew Research poll showed that 77 per cent of black Americans and 18 per cent of whites backed reparations”
Shocking but true. If the Dems want to lose California, and the presidency, this is how to do it
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Just because you didn't get a ticket for Eurovision...
You know what they say.. 1st prize 2 tickets to Eurovision 2nd prize 4 tickets to Eurovision....
One of my colleagues is there today for the semi.
This is why I work from home.
If Penny Mordaunt shows up there'll be more than a semi. It'll be all over in seconds for many.
What about the native Americans? What about the Chinese used as virtual slave labour in the railways? What about non black slaves? What about whites whose forefathers were slaved by Barbary pirates?
This to me looks like the ultimate example of Woke Gone Mad and perhaps the only way you could ever turn California Republican
If that is qualification for high office, we'd have a cabinet full of TV weather forecasters.
Speaking as one of the more senior, but not elderly, chaps with some..er .. appreciation of her performance at the Coronation, there is also the fact, as I mentioned the other day, that she is able to carry off that combination of either more distant charisma, possibly described as mystique, and empathy, at other times.
There's not really anyone else like that in the Tory party that I can see, except possibly Rory Stewart, and they kicked him out for his views on Brexit, anyway . I expect Sunak may be reasonably secure up to the vote next year, and then, possibly, Penny.
It was great seeing Sunak enjoy himself to Take That last night.
I am trying to get my head round how a thread header describing a vast corruption, fraud and perjury scandal for which no one has ever been punished and no victims ever compensated ended up as a Two Minutes' Hate on Liverpool.
I get it started with Hillsborough and the cover up there, but it still seems the weirdest of weird non sequitur.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Just because you didn't get a ticket for Eurovision...
You know what they say.. 1st prize 2 tickets to Eurovision 2nd prize 4 tickets to Eurovision....
One of my colleagues is there today for the semi.
This is why I work from home.
If Penny Mordaunt shows up there'll be more than a semi. It'll be all over in seconds for many.
Some may think it’s a bit of a joke, but my father brought up Mordaunt yesterday from nowhere. I’d say she definitely had a ‘good’ coronation. Doesn’t make an ounce of difference to whether she could be a good leader, but every little helps…
Software does not make mistakes, the people that wrote it do.
So why are they not in prison?
All software has bugs, it’s the nature of the beast.
That’s not a liability for the developers, that’s a liability for those in charge of deploying it with insufficient testing, from both the vendor and the customer.
Even more so, it’s a liability for those who used the software to harass and prosecute people, while at the same time ignoring evidence from the software developers that there might be serious problems with it.
Software has bugs because of the people that wrote it.
At what point do the people that wrote it, not he held accountable for not doing anything about it? They should be held accountable, if innocent then fine. But they've never been tried.
At some point the senior management angle doesn't wash.
And I am a Software Engineer.
As you'll know, modern software is not 'written' by one person - at least not usually. It is written by a team, and it *should* then go through some form of QA team, who will then say it is okay to be released. Then a manager presses the Big Red button and it goes live.
If the person/team writing the software makes a mistake, is he liable if that mistake was not picked up by QA? But why should the QA team be blamed for their mistake in not picking up on it?
IMV it's a different matter if a bug is known about, but management decides to let the release go ahead with the bug present - and especially if they choose not to document the bug (this does happen).
As an example: should the poor sod who wrote the code in the classic Therac-25 tragedy be blamed for the resultant deaths? IMV no. That was a corporate balls-up.
(I hope I've remembered the Therac=25 circs correctly...)
Until everyone from bottom to top is tried, we will never know. That's the point, there's never been a proper inquiry to establish where the blame actually starts as far as I understand it.
I expect the people that wrote the code would be found totally innocent as you said - but we don't know because it has never been established.
I just find it hard to believe that nobody in the engineering team, or the QA team, knew what was going on.
It was a matter of open discussion in computer journals (Computer Weekly, notably) while prosecutions were still going on. It's almost impossible to believe that this was genuine error on the part of management or lawyers. It might have started that way, right at the outset, but for them to persist in deliberate ignorance for decades, is unforgivable.
It was a matter of open discussion in computer journals (Computer Weekly, notably) while prosecutions were still going on. It's almost impossible to believe that this was genuine error on the part of management or lawyers. It might have started that way, right at the outset, but for them to persist in deliberate ignorance for decades, is unforgivable.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
It’s not just Hillsborough though. Liverpool’s decline as a city was mainly down to appalling industrial relations and terrible local councillors. And, that was the responsibility of Liverpudlians.
The only thing you get from Liverpudlians any time you point out their behaviour to them is "Hillsborough" and raw abuse.
One can only conclude that being wronged against has become part of their culture, probably to avoid having to face up to their own failings, and they channel a secret hatred of themselves into rage at others.
Because it is a legitimate grievance "Hillsborough" is enough of a justification for it to last several generations.
Hmmmmm............. Just playing catchup on posts now.
I don't necessarily think you're completely wrong about some elements of the city, but many people have now started to move on (Hillsborough was a long time ago now). It might have been better to have worded that better.
Like the PO scandal, Liverpool took ages to see justice (And I'm not sure we ever have... despite being here almost my whole life, Hillsborough really passed me by as a non-football person) and with the exception of Kelvin MacKenzie (who really is a grade 1 shit), I'm not sure who or what should be punished this far out now.
It's shit, it should've been addressed in 1989, or 1990 at a push. It wasn't. Central government hates Liverpool shocker......... Dog bites man in other news. "We'll give them Capital of Culture 2008 and Eurovision 2023 to compensate. That'll keep the Scousers quiet (I'm dreading this week...............)"
FFS, she held a sword for half an hour and wore a nice dress. The Tory Party voted against her TWICE!
You lot really are going to lose in a landslide if you think this is the solution, not the policies or ideas, or any of the other people. You've been in Government far too long.
I’m not a Tory and I’m not “in government”. I’m a humble flint knapper that makes political observations and predictions. And one such prediction was just after the Corrie when I said “Mordaunt has really raised her profile and will now be a leading candidate to take over from him”
This has nowt to do with her political capabilities - you are quite right that holding a sword for an hour in a nice dress does not make you Abraham Lincoln. But we live in a televisual age of social media virality
You most certainly are a Tory. And EYE pundited this point first. You just recycled the observation an hour or so later. All can check.
However she hasn't come in much on betfair so what we are both suggesting could easily be the most frightful load of cobblers.
What about the native Americans? What about the Chinese used as virtual slave labour in the railways? What about non black slaves? What about whites whose forefathers were slaved by Barbary pirates?
This to me looks like the ultimate example of Woke Gone Mad and perhaps the only way you could ever turn California Republican
Surely California has had Republican phases. Reagan and Schwartzenegger governorships being examples.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Fucking hell! And you got a like too.
I'm afraid Slough is first for the nuke though. David Brent has decreed it.
Software does not make mistakes, the people that wrote it do.
So why are they not in prison?
All software has bugs, it’s the nature of the beast.
That’s not a liability for the developers, that’s a liability for those in charge of deploying it with insufficient testing, from both the vendor and the customer.
Even more so, it’s a liability for those who used the software to harass and prosecute people, while at the same time ignoring evidence from the software developers that there might be serious problems with it.
Software has bugs because of the people that wrote it.
At what point do the people that wrote it, not he held accountable for not doing anything about it? They should be held accountable, if innocent then fine. But they've never been tried.
At some point the senior management angle doesn't wash.
And I am a Software Engineer.
As you'll know, modern software is not 'written' by one person - at least not usually. It is written by a team, and it *should* then go through some form of QA team, who will then say it is okay to be released. Then a manager presses the Big Red button and it goes live.
If the person/team writing the software makes a mistake, is he liable if that mistake was not picked up by QA? But why should the QA team be blamed for their mistake in not picking up on it?
IMV it's a different matter if a bug is known about, but management decides to let the release go ahead with the bug present - and especially if they choose not to document the bug (this does happen).
As an example: should the poor sod who wrote the code in the classic Therac-25 tragedy be blamed for the resultant deaths? IMV no. That was a corporate balls-up.
(I hope I've remembered the Therac=25 circs correctly...)
Until everyone from bottom to top is tried, we will never know. That's the point, there's never been a proper inquiry to establish where the blame actually starts as far as I understand it.
I expect the people that wrote the code would be found totally innocent as you said - but we don't know because it has never been established.
I just find it hard to believe that nobody in the engineering team, or the QA team, knew what was going on.
It was a matter of open discussion in computer journals (Computer Weekly, notably) while prosecutions were still going on. It's almost impossible to believe that this was genuine error on the part of management or lawyers. It might have started that way, right at the outset, but for them to persist in deliberate ignorance for decades, is unforgivable.
Both CW and Private Eye have been all over this since it started, getting tipped off from people on the inside. Yet still the prosecutions continued, and still the organisations involved were more interested in persecuting the whistleblowers than looking too deeply into the story.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Why do PB allow you to write such prejudicial nonsense without sanction? You wouldn't stereotype a specific race or creed, so why is it acceptable for the citizens of a city you don't like to be slandered by you?
Anyway off to polish my "flag".
I am describing the culture of the city. And I have said not all are like that, but many are.
I was very offended and insulted by the behaviour of Liverpool fans booing the national anthem the day before yesterday. Hillsborough was and is a scandal, that is for sure, and it needs redressing, but (honestly?) I think even if it were this wouldn't go away. No redress would never be enough and/or that legitimate grievance would be replaced by something else in the victim culture: class, snobbery, Fatch etc. There is something profoundly illogical here. The Royal Family had nothing to do with it - they are just a symbol and following through on that by targetting them has made them look disloyal, angry, aggressive and disrespectful and upset a lot of people.
I am now disinclined to lift a finger to help them - unlike I would for Aberfan and the Post Office scandal - which will no doubt reinforce their grievance. So the most likely outcome is that this goes on and on. I think it's important the facts and behaviour are called out so a change can be made.
Think about it.
The people of Liverpool are utterly distraught that you "are disinclined to lift a finger to help them". How will they cope?
By trying to ban me and call me a bigot, it seems.
Banning you would mean we can't ridicule you. Where's the fun in that?
I don't mind a bit of ridicule. It's probably healthy at some level.
I do mind the T and C word a bit though, and being called a bigot. We're better than that.
This subject seems to make otherwise normal people totally irrational.
You are a bit bigoted, though. You hate people who arent ultra monarchists, poor people, Scousers, Vegans, eco-activists, anyone who votes Green. You'd see me arrested and beaten up by the police or event stewards for protesting animal rights or climate change whereas I'd be ashamed if that happened to you. Maybe more than a bit bigoted?
Err, no.
I think you just take yourself, and what I say on here, a little bit too seriously.
Fella, I'd say most people on here feel the same about you. This is the internet, it doesn't do nuance, tone and context so I'm more than willing to believe that that's not the real you, but your posts say otherwise. You sound pretty angry these days.
I use this site to vent a bit, sometimes without much/any of a filter.
It's not representative of what I'm like in real life, as several pb'ers who've met me will attest to, but we're all very interested in politics and issues on here, and it's a passionate and intense subject, and my wife can only take so much.
We all come on here to let off steam (see the Collected Works of Malcomg Esq) don’t worry about it
Tho you do seem a little more dyspeptic than usual, but you have also explained your new job is stressing you out bigtime
I am trying to do something about that.
My review gave me a high performer, and accelerated track to Partner, but at what cost?
I spend all my time working basically.
Shift down to a 4 day week if you can afford to. It will do wonders for your mental state. I work half days on Friday but that's become a company policy rather than specific to me and it's been amazing being able to wrap up the week at around lunch time since we started doing it. Overall I'd say our productivity is up as well because people are properly rested on Monday and Tuesday so we get a lot more out of them and all we've done is turn unofficially clocking off at 3ish (officially when we were in office on Fridays) to officially calling it a half day at 1ish.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Fucking hell! And you got a like too.
I'm afraid Slough is first for the nuke though. David Brent has decreed it.
Labour really does not have much to fear if the bar for a Tory leader now is wears a nice dress and holds a sword.
One of our Ukrainians is getting paid (quite a lot) to cosplay Aiz Wallenstein (the "Sword Princess" from DanMachi) at some ghastly nerdfest. As well as being handsomely remunerated she'll probably get to lead the tory party as well.
Anime cosplay is huge in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine apparently. I've been charged with making the sword.
We've at least seen the so-called "free speech" warriors of which (?) some hang out here, exposed for being charlatans that we long suspected they were.
Call out trans people? Freedom of speech.
Attack immigrants? Freedom of speech.
Accuse SKS of failing to prosecute Jimmy Saville? Freedom of speech.
Hold a yellow placard in the street of London which says not my King? You should be arrested, then deported, then set on fire.
And I have written endlessly about police misbehaviour and abuse of power.
Quite a few others have pointed out the undesirability of arresting people for peacefully protesting against the King's accession - both last September and this weekend.
We've at least seen the so-called "free speech" warriors of which (?) some hang out here, exposed for being charlatans that we long suspected they were.
Call out trans people? Freedom of speech.
Attack immigrants? Freedom of speech.
Accuse SKS of failing to prosecute Jimmy Saville? Freedom of speech.
Hold a yellow placard in the street of London which says not my King? You should be arrested, then deported, then set on fire.
And I have written endlessly about police misbehaviour and abuse of power.
Quite a few others have pointed out the undesirability of arresting people for peacefully protesting against the King's accession - both last September and this weekend.
I was not referring to you in my post - and I am aware and thank you for drawing attention to this very early on and being consistent in opposing it. It is wicked.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Just because you didn't get a ticket for Eurovision...
You know what they say.. 1st prize 2 tickets to Eurovision 2nd prize 4 tickets to Eurovision....
One of my colleagues is there today for the semi.
This is why I work from home.
If Penny Mordaunt shows up there'll be more than a semi. It'll be all over in seconds for many.
Some may think it’s a bit of a joke, but my father brought up Mordaunt yesterday from nowhere. I’d say she definitely had a ‘good’ coronation. Doesn’t make an ounce of difference to whether she could be a good leader, but every little helps…
It's far from a joke. That we have nearly a year and a half left of a majority government that is so bereft of ideas, self-confidence or basic competence that this is their latest thrashing around wizard wheeze to keep their desperate faces in the trough, is the very antithesis of amusing to my mind.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
It’s not just Hillsborough though. Liverpool’s decline as a city was mainly down to appalling industrial relations and terrible local councillors. And, that was the responsibility of Liverpudlians.
The only thing you get from Liverpudlians any time you point out their behaviour to them is "Hillsborough" and raw abuse.
One can only conclude that being wronged against has become part of their culture, probably to avoid having to face up to their own failings, and they channel a secret hatred of themselves into rage at others.
Because it is a legitimate grievance "Hillsborough" is enough of a justification for it to last several generations.
Liverpool is a city and culture that revels in its victim status and uses it as a shield for why it's such a shit hole rather than looking within at their own failings and voting in politicians who are knowingly corrupt but because they have the correct colour rosette they win by default. It's always someone else's fault, never their own fault for, you know, being chronically lazy and unemployed.
I won't disagree with the second part, about voting Labour. It's pretty terrible around here. Labour don't care, because they've won, and the others don't care because they can't win (and therefore it can't really be blamed on them as they're not in charge).
But the same could be said about many other areas in the country. How many seats just vote Conservative without any thinking why?
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Just because you didn't get a ticket for Eurovision...
You know what they say.. 1st prize 2 tickets to Eurovision 2nd prize 4 tickets to Eurovision....
One of my colleagues is there today for the semi.
This is why I work from home.
If Penny Mordaunt shows up there'll be more than a semi. It'll be all over in seconds for many.
Some may think it’s a bit of a joke, but my father brought up Mordaunt yesterday from nowhere. I’d say she definitely had a ‘good’ coronation. Doesn’t make an ounce of difference to whether she could be a good leader, but every little helps…
It's far from a joke. That we have nearly a year and a half left of a majority government that is so bereft of ideas, self-confidence or basic competence that this is their latest thrashing around wizard wheeze to keep their desperate faces in the trough, is the very antithesis of amusing to my mind.
Although TBF our profession has had to deal with OFSTED being in that state for 34 years, and the DfE for 89 years.
I am trying to get my head round how a thread header describing a vast corruption, fraud and perjury scandal for which no one has ever been punished and no victims ever compensated ended up as a Two Minutes' Hate on Liverpool.
I get it started with Hillsborough and the cover up there, but it still seems the weirdest of weird non sequitur.
What about the native Americans? What about the Chinese used as virtual slave labour in the railways? What about non black slaves? What about whites whose forefathers were slaved by Barbary pirates?
This to me looks like the ultimate example of Woke Gone Mad and perhaps the only way you could ever turn California Republican
Surely California has had Republican phases. Reagan and Schwartzenegger governorships being examples.
I’m not sure it’s ever been swept up entirely by the republicans - from cities to senators to governors - but this mad scheme would do it, if enacted
Reparations are becoming a deeply serious thing in the USA. So it is not impossible
I am trying to get my head round how a thread header describing a vast corruption, fraud and perjury scandal for which no one has ever been punished and no victims ever compensated ended up as a Two Minutes' Hate on Liverpool.
I get it started with Hillsborough and the cover up there, but it still seems the weirdest of weird non sequitur.
Thanks. An interesting blog name and username here for someone who doesn't write as a headbanging hard lefter - done in satire?
I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that Labour haven't done enough in these elections to be on course for victory. I think they are - because of the anti-Tory tactical voting.
As I pointed out to Tom Blenkinsop before he blocked me (and we have campaigned together previously which makes it funnier), Labour won't win the election if southern voters where Labour are nowhere insist on voting Labour, split the anti-Tory vote and let the Tory MP win. Needs to be smarter than that.
The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
AIUI the subpostmasters did complain, often loudly. But they were told the computer was right. The assumption was that they had taken the cash and used it to subsidise their daily life, with the result that there was a deficit with no surplus *recorded on the system*
The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
This feels right. I suspect the managers probably did initially think the staff, not the software was at fault. Then they doubled down long after there was doubt and subsequent actual evidence that the staff were falsely accused.
One of the many things about this that seems odd to me is why the sheer amount of supposedly 'fraudulent' sub postmasters (both the absolute number and as a percentage of the total) thrown up by the system didn't trigger alarm bells as to whether the system was working as it should.
When you audit something, as well as getting immersed in the detail you're supposed to elevate above it at some point and ask yourself, "Ok but does this picture as a whole make sense?" This does not seem to have happened.
Exactly this. The art of investigation is to know the detail inside out but also look at the picture as a whole. And test test test all the assumptions and statements you are making. That clearly did not happen here.
That's bad enough - but if you're also acting as prosecutor based on the results of your investigation, there ought to be a far stronger duty to do so.
My view is that the investigator should never be the prosecutor. But yes you're right that those acting as prosecutors here failed to do this. That's why the section of the inquiry dealing with the lawyers will be so interesting. The role and duties of in-house legal investigation teams is one which needs very careful thought. Surprisingly perhaps I do not subscribe to the view that lawyers necessarily or automatically make the best investigators. They may do but being a good investigator requires more than just legal skills.
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Why do PB allow you to write such prejudicial nonsense without sanction? You wouldn't stereotype a specific race or creed, so why is it acceptable for the citizens of a city you don't like to be slandered by you?
Anyway off to polish my "flag".
I am describing the culture of the city. And I have said not all are like that, but many are.
I was very offended and insulted by the behaviour of Liverpool fans booing the national anthem the day before yesterday. Hillsborough was and is a scandal, that is for sure, and it needs redressing, but (honestly?) I think even if it were this wouldn't go away. No redress would never be enough and/or that legitimate grievance would be replaced by something else in the victim culture: class, snobbery, Fatch etc. There is something profoundly illogical here. The Royal Family had nothing to do with it - they are just a symbol and following through on that by targetting them has made them look disloyal, angry, aggressive and disrespectful and upset a lot of people.
I am now disinclined to lift a finger to help them - unlike I would for Aberfan and the Post Office scandal - which will no doubt reinforce their grievance. So the most likely outcome is that this goes on and on. I think it's important the facts and behaviour are called out so a change can be made.
Think about it.
The people of Liverpool are utterly distraught that you "are disinclined to lift a finger to help them". How will they cope?
By trying to ban me and call me a bigot, it seems.
Banning you would mean we can't ridicule you. Where's the fun in that?
I don't mind a bit of ridicule. It's probably healthy at some level.
I do mind the T and C word a bit though, and being called a bigot. We're better than that.
This subject seems to make otherwise normal people totally irrational.
You are a bit bigoted, though. You hate people who arent ultra monarchists, poor people, Scousers, Vegans, eco-activists, anyone who votes Green. You'd see me arrested and beaten up by the police or event stewards for protesting animal rights or climate change whereas I'd be ashamed if that happened to you. Maybe more than a bit bigoted?
Err, no.
I think you just take yourself, and what I say on here, a little bit too seriously.
Fella, I'd say most people on here feel the same about you. This is the internet, it doesn't do nuance, tone and context so I'm more than willing to believe that that's not the real you, but your posts say otherwise. You sound pretty angry these days.
I use this site to vent a bit, sometimes without much/any of a filter.
It's not representative of what I'm like in real life, as several pb'ers who've met me will attest to, but we're all very interested in politics and issues on here, and it's a passionate and intense subject, and my wife can only take so much.
We all come on here to let off steam (see the Collected Works of Malcomg Esq) don’t worry about it
Tho you do seem a little more dyspeptic than usual, but you have also explained your new job is stressing you out bigtime
I am trying to do something about that.
My review gave me a high performer, and accelerated track to Partner, but at what cost?
I spend all my time working basically.
Shift down to a 4 day week if you can afford to. It will do wonders for your mental state. I work half days on Friday but that's become a company policy rather than specific to me and it's been amazing being able to wrap up the week at around lunch time since we started doing it. Overall I'd say our productivity is up as well because people are properly rested on Monday and Tuesday so we get a lot more out of them and all we've done is turn unofficially clocking off at 3ish (officially when we were in office on Fridays) to officially calling it a half day at 1ish.
With Bank Holidays and strikes we are halfway through a half term which is almost all four day weeks. Standards of behaviour and learning outcomes have skyrocketed. The kids are settled, rested and ready to learn. Staff unstressed. It's a virtuous circle. I imagine education is the last place we'll get 4 day weeks, as a succession of ignorant ministers and the Daily Mail thunder on about "lost learning". But the difference has been quite astonishing thus far.
Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.
The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.
Which, if it is that widespread, suggests its more about human psychology and that there's a pressing need to incentivise the right behaviours by design, because the wrong ones will be by default.
You can't reform the system. Just kick it till it breaks.
Or your foot breaks.
Talking of that, how's your boss doing in Ukraine? Stubbed his toe?
FFS, she held a sword for half an hour and wore a nice dress. The Tory Party voted against her TWICE!
You lot really are going to lose in a landslide if you think this is the solution, not the policies or ideas, or any of the other people. You've been in Government far too long.
I’m not a Tory and I’m not “in government”. I’m a humble flint knapper that makes political observations and predictions. And one such prediction was just after the Corrie when I said “Mordaunt has really raised her profile and will now be a leading candidate to take over from him”
This has nowt to do with her political capabilities - you are quite right that holding a sword for an hour in a nice dress does not make you Abraham Lincoln. But we live in a televisual age of social media virality
You most certainly are a Tory. And EYE pundited this point first. You just recycled the observation an hour or so later. All can check.
However she hasn't come in much on betfair so what we are both suggesting could easily be the most frightful load of cobblers.
She's come in from 10 to 6.2.
It's my 6.2. It was 6 earlier today. I'm laying off some of the 10s I got before her latest appearance.
The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
AIUI the subpostmasters did complain, often loudly. But they were told the computer was right. The assumption was that they had taken the cash and used it to subsidise their daily life, with the result that there was a deficit with no surplus *recorded on the system*
Worse than that, as outlined in the header, the judge ruled that the computer output was beyond challenge by the defence, it was assumed to be legally factual information.
The tragedy of Penny Mordaunt's tilt at the Tory Leadership is that she actually appears to have empathy, even her political opponents in Portsmouth North give her credit for being a decent human being. But in the leadership contest she felt forced to deny her own empathy and get on the Culture War Train.
The tragedy of Penny Mordaunt's tilt at the Tory Leadership is that she actually appears to have empathy, even her political opponents in Portsmouth North give her credit for being a decent human being. But in the leadership contest she felt forced to deny her own empathy and get on the Culture War Train.
A decent Tory leader needs to come in and say, look I just won't go there, there are other issues. David Cameron and Osborne treaded that line - in my own very biased view - quite well.
I think quite honestly the Labour line of, we should treat people with love and compassion, is a good start. I don't doubt there are many issues of which we have discussed here and I am open to have my mind changed - but too many start from a position of hatred.
It's not surprising - and even were it more closely balanced, abolishing the monarchy would be another enormous and pointless political distraction. So I can see the attraction of the issue for Tories.
FFS, she held a sword for half an hour and wore a nice dress. The Tory Party voted against her TWICE!
You lot really are going to lose in a landslide if you think this is the solution, not the policies or ideas, or any of the other people. You've been in Government far too long.
I’m not a Tory and I’m not “in government”. I’m a humble flint knapper that makes political observations and predictions. And one such prediction was just after the Corrie when I said “Mordaunt has really raised her profile and will now be a leading candidate to take over from him”
This has nowt to do with her political capabilities - you are quite right that holding a sword for an hour in a nice dress does not make you Abraham Lincoln. But we live in a televisual age of social media virality
You most certainly are a Tory. And EYE pundited this point first. You just recycled the observation an hour or so later. All can check.
However she hasn't come in much on betfair so what we are both suggesting could easily be the most frightful load of cobblers.
She's come in from 10 to 6.2.
It's my 6.2. It was 6 earlier today. I'm laying off some of the 10s I got before her latest appearance.
6 is about right, not a price to back at. Should be slight favourite though, i.e Kemi too short.
You state: "The impact of voter ID was negligable..." without any basis.
You need to consider how many people who wanted to vote stayed at home due to lack of documentation.
It's quite funny that in the very next full paragraph he writes this! The turn-out - usually low in local elections anyway, was absolutely dire and averaged below 30%, with some wards even lower than that. In my area for example, the neighbouring ward of Goole South recorded a turn-out of just 14% and some areas were even lower than that.
FFS, she held a sword for half an hour and wore a nice dress. The Tory Party voted against her TWICE!
You lot really are going to lose in a landslide if you think this is the solution, not the policies or ideas, or any of the other people. You've been in Government far too long.
I’m not a Tory and I’m not “in government”. I’m a humble flint knapper that makes political observations and predictions. And one such prediction was just after the Corrie when I said “Mordaunt has really raised her profile and will now be a leading candidate to take over from him”
This has nowt to do with her political capabilities - you are quite right that holding a sword for an hour in a nice dress does not make you Abraham Lincoln. But we live in a televisual age of social media virality
You most certainly are a Tory. And EYE pundited this point first. You just recycled the observation an hour or so later. All can check.
However she hasn't come in much on betfair so what we are both suggesting could easily be the most frightful load of cobblers.
She's come in from 10 to 6.2.
It's my 6.2. It was 6 earlier today. I'm laying off some of the 10s I got before her latest appearance.
Good strategy.
The Tory membership will have a longer memory of her getting Stonewall to write prospective legislation on gender identity, and then denying it, than they will of her swardswomanship at the Coronation, even if it was a good performance that raised her profile with the general public.
The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
AIUI the subpostmasters did complain, often loudly. But they were told the computer was right. The assumption was that they had taken the cash and used it to subsidise their daily life, with the result that there was a deficit with no surplus *recorded on the system*
Worse than that, as outlined in the header, the judge ruled that the computer output was beyond challenge by the defence, it was assumed to be legally factual information.
What boggles the mind is that accounting is just adding and subtracting. We're not talking MegaCorp with complex off-shore tax dodging schemes. We're talking small post offices taking and issuing relatively small amounts of cash over the counter. The computer can say "£10k unaccounted for" but it would have been blindingly obvious to anyone who can add that it isn't.
Like when my Quickbooks says I am -£6k because it has double counted a transaction until I correct it. My account isn't showing -£6k. The transaction doing that isn't in my bank record, so only a moron would take the computer as gospel and ignore all other evidence. And yet that is what they did at the Post Office.
Over and over and over again. So many criminals suddenly appointed to run sub post office branches! That in itself should have been a scandal! Why since the new computer system came in have we employed so many crooks?
FFS, she held a sword for half an hour and wore a nice dress. The Tory Party voted against her TWICE!
You lot really are going to lose in a landslide if you think this is the solution, not the policies or ideas, or any of the other people. You've been in Government far too long.
I’m not a Tory and I’m not “in government”. I’m a humble flint knapper that makes political observations and predictions. And one such prediction was just after the Corrie when I said “Mordaunt has really raised her profile and will now be a leading candidate to take over from him”
This has nowt to do with her political capabilities - you are quite right that holding a sword for an hour in a nice dress does not make you Abraham Lincoln. But we live in a televisual age of social media virality
You most certainly are a Tory. And EYE pundited this point first. You just recycled the observation an hour or so later. All can check.
However she hasn't come in much on betfair so what we are both suggesting could easily be the most frightful load of cobblers.
She's come in from 10 to 6.2.
It's my 6.2. It was 6 earlier today. I'm laying off some of the 10s I got before her latest appearance.
Really? Ok. Damn, I should have nipped in and out then (like you). Nice one.
You state: "The impact of voter ID was negligable..." without any basis.
You need to consider how many people who wanted to vote stayed at home due to lack of documentation.
It's quite funny that in the very next full paragraph he writes this! The turn-out - usually low in local elections anyway, was absolutely dire and averaged below 30%, with some wards even lower than that. In my area for example, the neighbouring ward of Goole South recorded a turn-out of just 14% and some areas were even lower than that.
I nearly didn’t bother. Some ghastly neighbourhood do gooder won as an Ashford Independent with 75% of the vote - as he always does. Took the wife along as it was her first U.K. vote and took the obligatory pic of the dog in front of the Polling Station sign. One day the media will use one.
Unfortunately, the same pattern of behaviour is replicated across almost all institutions, such as the NHS, child “protection” services, police forces, political parties, churches, etc.
The instinctive response to wrongdoing is to cover it up, and to punish those who reveal it.
Two awkward bits of human/British psyche combining in an unhealthy way.
We (and I suspect this is fundamentally human but worse in Britain) don't like external checks and balances. So the Post Office, Ofsted etc get to mark their own homework and don't pick up on small fixable issues.
Then there's the "off with their heads tendency", strengthened by the (fairly unique) British press. To admit getting anything wrong is to invite ridicule and career death. No wonder people clam up.
Goodness knows what we do about it.
I’ve no reason to doubt that these scandals are replicated in the USA, France, Italy, Belgium etc. That suggests it’s deeply rooted in human nature.
Well, no, it suggests that you reach a conclusion merely because you've no reason to doubt it. I've no reason to doubt that there is life on Alpha Centauri, but that doesn't mean there is.
I lived in Demark and Switzerland for over 30 years. Both countries have a very strong ethos of "correct behaviour" (which makes Switzerland in particular open to accusations of conformism). There was the occasional controversy asbout how a particular Minister or agency behaved, but I don't remember anything like this.
I agree with Stuart's analysis, but also I think that politics in Britain is unhealthily driven by what the media seize on, and this scandal is curiously un-newsworthy. People scattered around the country were maligned and ruined, but no one community where you could make a story out of interviewing dozens of victims. People died prematurely - stress, even suicide - but nobody died instantly, unlike a train crash or an explosion. The reasons sound technical and complex - something about a computer system. You can kind of see why journalists mostly move on - but that shouldn't be a reason for the political establishment to shrug it off. There's something called doing one's job, rather than just reacting to the media.
The British media may will be unhealthy in some ways, but I think it's actually easier to get away with certain kinds of corruption in Germany, where there is a big emphasis on maintaining consensus and not rocking the boat. See how proud some people in Cologne are of the local corruption which is called the 'Kölsche Klüngel'. Trying to get local media interested in blatant corruption is impossible if it involves the 'right' people.
This article makes it sound like something unique to Cologne, but it isn't:
Germany is extraordinarily corrupt in the interactions between business and politicians.
The Post Office scandal was a cock up and a cover up, with tragic consequences. If you look at VW emissions, Wirecard, Deutsche Bank, Deutsche Borse and so many others it was entirely deliberate
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Fucking hell! And you got a like too.
I'm afraid Slough is first for the nuke though. David Brent has decreed it.
I thought it was Sir John Betjemen who first made that very sensible suggestion (though he was talking about a non-nuke option).
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Fucking hell! And you got a like too.
I'm afraid Slough is first for the nuke though. David Brent has decreed it.
I thought it was Sir John Betjemen who first made that very sensible suggestion (though he was talking about a non-nuke option).
Just as Betjeman beat Brent on Slough, so I beat you on that reference...
It keeps the local elections in the public mind and it forces Starmer and Labour into a position. Are they really a party of Opposition or are they just waiting their turn? It also raises the profile of the LDs and Davey which is no bad thing (for them).
The problem is it unites the Conservatives (but is there any serious threat to Sunak?). I know one or two on here are getting over-excited about Mordaunt but she's had her chances and failed to take them. Even if she keeps her seat (no guarantee), would she have any prospect of winning a post-Sunak leadership election against Badenoch and Braverman? What faction of Conservative thinking does she represent?
The tragedy of Penny Mordaunt's tilt at the Tory Leadership is that she actually appears to have empathy, even her political opponents in Portsmouth North give her credit for being a decent human being. But in the leadership contest she felt forced to deny her own empathy and get on the Culture War Train.
A decent Tory leader needs to come in and say, look I just won't go there, there are other issues. David Cameron and Osborne treaded that line - in my own very biased view - quite well.
I think quite honestly the Labour line of, we should treat people with love and compassion, is a good start. I don't doubt there are many issues of which we have discussed here and I am open to have my mind changed - but too many start from a position of hatred.
Is it a position of hatred to think that women’s sports should be reserved for biological females?
Morning everyone. How is work going this dreary Monday morning?
PB Brains Trust.
What is the best Greek Island for a family break (4 yr old kid)? Sandy beach and decent hotel/resort.
So many imponderables!
Do you want
1 an airport for direct flights? 2 some history/culture or just sun and sea (no shame in that)? 3 to avoid mass tourism or be part of the crowds? 4 greenery and woods or classic whitewashed towns and windmills? 5 fashionable or don’t care?
1 Yes. 2 some history though we do have a young son so tricky terrain is probably a no-no. 3 don’t mind but not too crowded. 4 the later. 5 Not bothered.
Our first major vacation since kiddo was born so something memorable!
When my kids were little we took them to Samos, twice, and had a marvellous time. Much quieter than most of the islands mentioned, but still lively enough. It's a while back, but I don't imagine it's changed that much. It meets all your criteria.
The tragedy of Penny Mordaunt's tilt at the Tory Leadership is that she actually appears to have empathy, even her political opponents in Portsmouth North give her credit for being a decent human being. But in the leadership contest she felt forced to deny her own empathy and get on the Culture War Train.
A decent Tory leader needs to come in and say, look I just won't go there, there are other issues. David Cameron and Osborne treaded that line - in my own very biased view - quite well.
I think quite honestly the Labour line of, we should treat people with love and compassion, is a good start. I don't doubt there are many issues of which we have discussed here and I am open to have my mind changed - but too many start from a position of hatred.
Is it a position of hatred to think that women’s sports should be reserved for biological females?
And the quagmire begins once again..I'm not sure Penny was right to get involved with Stonewall, though. Natural empathy can easily get tangled up in political issues..
The problem with this scandal is that it is complicated. What actually happened? AIUI the Fujitsu system was supposed to provide a management system that would operate the post office for people for whom that was only a part of their business, a counter in a shop. It was designed to allow them to deal with the various post office functions such as making deposits and savings in Post Office savings accounts, the huge range of government services and charges that have to be paid and actual post office functions like parcels and letters.
Somehow, and I have yet to read an account of this that makes much sense, the system created "holes" in the accounts, deficits that did not actually exist but which the sub-post masters were held to account for. And that is where it gets absurdly complicated because it surely should have been obvious to anyone who looked at the results that the service did not actually have these deficits. Put it another way, had those deficits been paid the service would have been performing quite exceptionally with highly unlikely levels of turnover and profit. But somehow the rubbish out of the systems was not identified, no one would accept that the system was making it up.
The other thing that was odd about it is that the sub-postmasters were not naïve fools about business or accounts. They, largely, ran their own discrete businesses with their own accounts, profits and losses, bank accounts etc. It should have been obvious to them that if these deficits were real the post office counter was running at a ridiculous loss. And where was the accounting for these deficits? Where were the counterbalancing surpluses, who got them? Presumably the Post Office. Did they not understand their own accounts well enough to realise something was going wrong?
I think @Cyclefree may be being a little harsh with the lawyers. They would have been told very little, that there was a deficit on the accounts and that the explanation was that the sub-postmaster had dipped into it and stolen money that they held in trust but did not belong to them. What more does a prosecutor need? But the accountants must surely have realised that something was not right, that there were deficits with no corresponding surpluses, where was the evidence of the money actually hitting the accounts of the sub-postmasters? And yet, concerns expressed were disregarded because so much had been invested in the system that it was impossible to accept that it did not work. There are many lessons to be learned here as well as an injustice to be made good as soon as possible.
AIUI the subpostmasters did complain, often loudly. But they were told the computer was right. The assumption was that they had taken the cash and used it to subsidise their daily life, with the result that there was a deficit with no surplus *recorded on the system*
Worse than that, as outlined in the header, the judge ruled that the computer output was beyond challenge by the defence, it was assumed to be legally factual information.
What boggles the mind is that accounting is just adding and subtracting. We're not talking MegaCorp with complex off-shore tax dodging schemes. We're talking small post offices taking and issuing relatively small amounts of cash over the counter. The computer can say "£10k unaccounted for" but it would have been blindingly obvious to anyone who can add that it isn't.
Like when my Quickbooks says I am -£6k because it has double counted a transaction until I correct it. My account isn't showing -£6k. The transaction doing that isn't in my bank record, so only a moron would take the computer as gospel and ignore all other evidence. And yet that is what they did at the Post Office.
Over and over and over again. So many criminals suddenly appointed to run sub post office branches! That in itself should have been a scandal! Why since the new computer system came in have we employed so many crooks?
Because they already thought they had a bunch of crooks running post offices, and the new system told them exactly what they wanted to hear.
Morning everyone. How is work going this dreary Monday morning?
PB Brains Trust.
What is the best Greek Island for a family break (4 yr old kid)? Sandy beach and decent hotel/resort.
So many imponderables!
Do you want
1 an airport for direct flights? 2 some history/culture or just sun and sea (no shame in that)? 3 to avoid mass tourism or be part of the crowds? 4 greenery and woods or classic whitewashed towns and windmills? 5 fashionable or don’t care?
1 Yes. 2 some history though we do have a young son so tricky terrain is probably a no-no. 3 don’t mind but not too crowded. 4 the later. 5 Not bothered.
Our first major vacation since kiddo was born so something memorable!
When my kids were little we took them to Samos, twice, and had a marvellous time. Much quieter than most of the islands mentioned, but still lively enough. It's a while back, but I don't imagine it's changed that much. It meets all your criteria.
Samos is very green, and big enough to have empty quiet beaches, if you look in the right places. Friendly people, some of them originally ancient Ionian Greeks, a bit like the Chiots.
I also like Ian's suggestion of Kalymnos, for a more off-the-beaten track and calm island. That's more an island for dramatic, rocky landscapes and completely getting away from it all ; a main big town and harbour which I think has access via boat trips to quieter parts of the island, and I seem to remember its own ferry to an even quieter island next door.
Thanks. An interesting blog name and username here for someone who doesn't write as a headbanging hard lefter - done in satire?
I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that Labour haven't done enough in these elections to be on course for victory. I think they are - because of the anti-Tory tactical voting.
As I pointed out to Tom Blenkinsop before he blocked me (and we have campaigned together previously which makes it funnier), Labour won't win the election if southern voters where Labour are nowhere insist on voting Labour, split the anti-Tory vote and let the Tory MP win. Needs to be smarter than that.
I think 35/26/20 as the national share on a local election basis points strongly to a Labour majority next year. Probably a modest one but still with a decent chance of a more seismic "Were you up for Mogg?" affair. The 20% LD vote is 'rich' whereas the 35% Labour is base. There'll be more efficient anti-tory tactical voting at the general. Labour are doing best in the places they most need to maximize FPTP seat gains. All in all it might not be 'deal sealed' but it's firmly on track. Starmer thinks this too, you can tell.
You can now walk from Chichester to Leamington Spa and the only time you will leave a LibDem majority controlled council area is to run across a couple of Tory fields in Wokingham, and even there the LibDems will likely be running the council as the largest party.
You can now walk from Chichester to Leamington Spa and the only time you will leave a LibDem majority controlled council area is to run across a couple of Tory fields in Wokingham, and even there the LibDems will likely be running the council as the largest party.
Just so you know.
Guildford and Winchester are almost certainly lost now.
And I hear Aldershot now big on Labour's list? Basingstoke might be a difficult one.
Morning everyone. How is work going this dreary Monday morning?
PB Brains Trust.
What is the best Greek Island for a family break (4 yr old kid)? Sandy beach and decent hotel/resort.
So many imponderables!
Do you want
1 an airport for direct flights? 2 some history/culture or just sun and sea (no shame in that)? 3 to avoid mass tourism or be part of the crowds? 4 greenery and woods or classic whitewashed towns and windmills? 5 fashionable or don’t care?
1 Yes. 2 some history though we do have a young son so tricky terrain is probably a no-no. 3 don’t mind but not too crowded. 4 the later. 5 Not bothered.
Our first major vacation since kiddo was born so something memorable!
How about Malta? Not a Greek island, but close enough for government work!
Valetta is a quirky place, you have lots of history, lovely beaches and great swimming plus the interior to explore if you want to get away from it all
This scandal is like Hillsborough, the authorities protect their own and not the victims.
No one will serve time for this shocking miscarriage of justice.
Perhaps, but unlike Liverpool we don't have a planet-sized chip on our shoulder and wallow in mawkish sentimentality and ugly self-pity, so we'll focus our efforts on change not bile.
You really are a twat when it comes to Liverpool.
At least 41 lives could have been saved that day if the authorities hadn’t screwed up and then covered it up.
Nothing has changed, nobody has served time for the deaths of 97 people.
I'd have stopped at word five.
Hmm. I'll save this one for the next time you complain about anyone getting personal at you.
Thanks for my first ever "flag". A badge of honour knowing it was awarded by you.
Liverpool should be nuked and levelled. Maybe we evacuate a few musicians first.
We can then start again. It hasn't worked.
Why do PB allow you to write such prejudicial nonsense without sanction? You wouldn't stereotype a specific race or creed, so why is it acceptable for the citizens of a city you don't like to be slandered by you?
Anyway off to polish my "flag".
I am describing the culture of the city. And I have said not all are like that, but many are.
I was very offended and insulted by the behaviour of Liverpool fans booing the national anthem the day before yesterday. Hillsborough was and is a scandal, that is for sure, and it needs redressing, but (honestly?) I think even if it were this wouldn't go away. No redress would never be enough and/or that legitimate grievance would be replaced by something else in the victim culture: class, snobbery, Fatch etc. There is something profoundly illogical here. The Royal Family had nothing to do with it - they are just a symbol and following through on that by targetting them has made them look disloyal, angry, aggressive and disrespectful and upset a lot of people.
I am now disinclined to lift a finger to help them - unlike I would for Aberfan and the Post Office scandal - which will no doubt reinforce their grievance. So the most likely outcome is that this goes on and on. I think it's important the facts and behaviour are called out so a change can be made.
Think about it.
The people of Liverpool are utterly distraught that you "are disinclined to lift a finger to help them". How will they cope?
By trying to ban me and call me a bigot, it seems.
To be clear - I am not from Liverpool. But I still find some of your recent comments are clearly those of a bigot.
To try and get the election wins back in the news after the distraction of the weekend
I believe a supportive poll is being published at 5pm if Twitter is correct...
Normally the bounce from local election results is pretty muted. Although the coverage in local news might have made a difference this time given how many areas there are where the LDs made good progress?
Comments
Their duty of honesty overrides any duty towards their clients. At the very least, some ought to be losing their license to practice.
In this case, the issue is not that the software had bugs - because all software has bugs, no matter how much QA gets done on it. The issue is that the output from the software was used uncritically to prosecute people, and that several different layers of management - with both the vendor and customer - were testifying in court that the output was accurate, at the same time as internal discussions were raising concerns about the data.
That’s a cover-up and potentially perjury - although I’m sure that those actually testifying in court were kept sufficiently in the dark, so as to be able to defend themselves against a direct perjury charge.
If the person/team writing the software makes a mistake, is he liable if that mistake was not picked up by QA? But why should the QA team be blamed for their mistake in not picking up on it?
IMV it's a different matter if a bug is known about, but management decides to let the release go ahead with the bug present - and especially if they choose not to document the bug (this does happen).
As an example: should the poor sod who wrote the code in the classic Therac-25 tragedy be blamed for the resultant deaths? IMV no. That was a corporate balls-up.
http://sunnyday.mit.edu/papers/therac.pdf
(I hope I've remembered the Therac=25 circs correctly...)
I’m being accused of making a “Tory argument” when in fact I’m addressing the dearth of talent in the party
I really thought the Tories might do a bit of introspection after the LEs but it feels like they're very much now in an end of Corbyn phase where they just attack everyone else for calling out how ridiculous they're being. This really is not the sign of a Government that will be re-elected and not something I've really seen from the Tories in recent elections.
After all, the old system was so ramshackle that they had no baseline measure for the actual level of fraud.
There are some interesting villages/towns too.
I expect the people that wrote the code would be found totally innocent as you said - but we don't know because it has never been established.
I just find it hard to believe that nobody in the engineering team, or the QA team, knew what was going on.
My review gave me a high performer, and accelerated track to Partner, but at what cost?
I spend all my time working basically.
To them, it was all working exactly as intended, identifying loads of fraud, long after a review of the actual evidence showed that not to be the case.
The biggest failing was the doubling down from the senior management, prosecutors, and auditors. They should have, at some point, taken a step back and realised that something wasn’t quite right. Especially when numerous whistleblowers were being fired, and paid off to shut up.
No particular reason to think she had the number grock to see that the figures simply didn't add up. And if the computer was saying something, who was she to question it?
(Very few people do have that sense of numbers, the ability to say "that's a real pattern", "that's noise", "that's a computer SNAFU". Cherish such people, for a lot of mistakes come from mixing those three upm)
I am seeing a similarity here to the post office situation - there is 'mob like' thinking going on and ultimately I don't think it will work out well.
This is why I work from home.
“Black Californians could get $1.2m each in reparations
Panel set up by state's Democratic governor, Gavin Newsom, recommends total payout of $500 billion for years of discrimination suffered”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/05/07/black-california-could-receive-up-to-12m-in-reparations/
What about the native Americans? What about the Chinese used as virtual slave labour in the railways? What about non black slaves? What about whites whose forefathers were slaved by Barbary pirates?
This to me looks like the ultimate example of Woke Gone Mad and perhaps the only way you could ever turn California Republican
But isn't "strange women with swords is no basis for a constitutional government." a quote?
There's not really anyone else like that in the Tory party that I can see, except possibly Rory Stewart, and they kicked him out for his views on Brexit, anyway . I expect Sunak may be reasonably secure up to the vote next year, and then, possibly, Penny.
The issue is not her, it's the Tory Party. SKS has proved a party can be changed - but the Tory Party isn't currently changing.
Oddly the ban led to a significant falling behind of English sides - they had dominated the European scene for a decade or more, then, after the hiatus, struggled to match the giants of Europe for many years.
“A Pew Research poll showed that 77 per cent of black Americans and 18 per cent of whites backed reparations”
Shocking but true. If the Dems want to lose California, and the presidency, this is how to do it
I very much doubt it will ever materialise.
If I was a Lib Dem I'd get a bottle of champagne ready for 5PM 👀
Are we about to see the Lib Dems surge?
I get it started with Hillsborough and the cover up there, but it still seems the weirdest of weird non sequitur.
I’d say she definitely had a ‘good’ coronation. Doesn’t make an ounce of difference to whether she could be a good leader, but every little helps…
It's almost impossible to believe that this was genuine error on the part of management or lawyers. It might have started that way, right at the outset, but for them to persist in deliberate ignorance for decades, is unforgivable.
I don't necessarily think you're completely wrong about some elements of the city, but many people have now started to move on (Hillsborough was a long time ago now). It might have been better to have worded that better.
Like the PO scandal, Liverpool took ages to see justice (And I'm not sure we ever have... despite being here almost my whole life, Hillsborough really passed me by as a non-football person) and with the exception of Kelvin MacKenzie (who really is a grade 1 shit), I'm not sure who or what should be punished this far out now.
It's shit, it should've been addressed in 1989, or 1990 at a push. It wasn't. Central government hates Liverpool shocker......... Dog bites man in other news.
"We'll give them Capital of Culture 2008 and Eurovision 2023 to compensate. That'll keep the Scousers quiet (I'm dreading this week...............)"
http://thepeoplesflag.blogspot.com/2023/05/english-local-election-results-may-2023.html
However she hasn't come in much on betfair so what we are both suggesting could easily be the most frightful load of cobblers.
I'm afraid Slough is first for the nuke though. David Brent has decreed it.
Anime cosplay is huge in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine apparently. I've been charged with making the sword.
And I have written endlessly about police misbehaviour and abuse of power.
Quite a few others have pointed out the undesirability of arresting people for peacefully protesting against the King's accession - both last September and this weekend.
That we have nearly a year and a half left of a majority government that is so bereft of ideas, self-confidence or basic competence that this is their latest thrashing around wizard wheeze to keep their desperate faces in the trough, is the very antithesis of amusing to my mind.
But the same could be said about many other areas in the country. How many seats just vote Conservative without any thinking why?
Reparations are becoming a deeply serious thing in the USA. So it is not impossible
https://www.gov.uk/parental-leave
I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that Labour haven't done enough in these elections to be on course for victory. I think they are - because of the anti-Tory tactical voting.
As I pointed out to Tom Blenkinsop before he blocked me (and we have campaigned together previously which makes it funnier), Labour won't win the election if southern voters where Labour are nowhere insist on voting Labour, split the anti-Tory vote and let the Tory MP win. Needs to be smarter than that.
You need to consider how many people who wanted to vote stayed at home due to lack of documentation.
Standards of behaviour and learning outcomes have skyrocketed. The kids are settled, rested and ready to learn. Staff unstressed. It's a virtuous circle.
I imagine education is the last place we'll get 4 day weeks, as a succession of ignorant ministers and the Daily Mail thunder on about "lost learning".
But the difference has been quite astonishing thus far.
Yes, yes, yes.
Talking of that, how's your boss doing in Ukraine? Stubbed his toe?
It's my 6.2. It was 6 earlier today. I'm laying off some of the 10s I got before her latest appearance.
I think quite honestly the Labour line of, we should treat people with love and compassion, is a good start. I don't doubt there are many issues of which we have discussed here and I am open to have my mind changed - but too many start from a position of hatred.
So I can see the attraction of the issue for Tories.
The turn-out - usually low in local elections anyway, was absolutely dire and averaged below 30%, with some wards even lower than that. In my area for example, the neighbouring ward of Goole South recorded a turn-out of just 14% and some areas were even lower than that.
Why.
The Tory membership will have a longer memory of her getting Stonewall to write prospective legislation on gender identity, and then denying it, than they will of her swardswomanship at the Coronation, even if it was a good performance that raised her profile with the general public.
Like when my Quickbooks says I am -£6k because it has double counted a transaction until I correct it. My account isn't showing -£6k. The transaction doing that isn't in my bank record, so only a moron would take the computer as gospel and ignore all other evidence. And yet that is what they did at the Post Office.
Over and over and over again. So many criminals suddenly appointed to run sub post office branches! That in itself should have been a scandal! Why since the new computer system came in have we employed so many crooks?
Germany is extraordinarily corrupt in the interactions between business and politicians.
The Post Office scandal was a cock up and a cover up, with tragic consequences. If you look at VW emissions, Wirecard, Deutsche Bank, Deutsche Borse and so many others it was entirely deliberate
The problem is it unites the Conservatives (but is there any serious threat to Sunak?). I know one or two on here are getting over-excited about Mordaunt but she's had her chances and failed to take them. Even if she keeps her seat (no guarantee), would she have any prospect of winning a post-Sunak leadership election against Badenoch and Braverman? What faction of Conservative thinking does she represent?
From you, no.
From JRM, yes.
The 55 minute BBC documentary on the Post Office scandal, from last year.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=irxY8SV24vM
I also like Ian's suggestion of Kalymnos, for a more off-the-beaten track and calm island. That's more an island for dramatic, rocky landscapes and completely getting away from it all ; a main big town and harbour which I think has access via boat trips to quieter parts of the island, and I seem to remember its own ferry to an even quieter island next door.
I blame King Charles. Boooooo.
Just so you know.
And I hear Aldershot now big on Labour's list? Basingstoke might be a difficult one.
Valetta is a quirky place, you have lots of history, lovely beaches and great swimming plus the interior to explore if you want to get away from it all