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The Tories will surely find a way for BoJo to remain an MP – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited April 2023 in General
imageThe Tories will surely find a way for BoJo to remain an MP – politicalbetting.com

it is very hard to see any outcome for the next general election that does not involve the Tories losing a lot of seats. Even if we take the most favourable current poll for Sunak’s party, R&W on Monday, the Tories are 12% behind. At GE2019 the blues had a 12% GB national vote lead so in terms of swing there has been a 12% CON-LAB one.

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Comments

  • First like Labour in Uxbridge & South Ruislip.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    First, like Mr Johnson in wherever it is.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401

    First like Labour in Uxbridge & South Ruislip.

    So? I'm still first, like Mr Johnson.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    If he stays in Uxbridge then Boris likely loses, so he may well move back to Henley, a safer berth
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Carnyx said:

    First like Labour in Uxbridge & South Ruislip.

    So? I'm still first, like Mr Johnson.
    Depends who is the arbiter of veracity
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    Will he still want to be an MP once the book advance cheque has cleared, and the Americans are offering $250k a speech?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352
    Fifth, like the amendment Nicola Sturgeon would plead if she were American, perhaps
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    philiph said:

    Carnyx said:

    First like Labour in Uxbridge & South Ruislip.

    So? I'm still first, like Mr Johnson.
    Depends who is the arbiter of veracity
    Well, who's more likely to get his piece published in the Spectator?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352
    Sandpit said:

    Will he still want to be an MP once the book advance cheque has cleared, and the Americans are offering $250k a speech?

    Americans really are stupid.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592
    Why would Rishi help Bozo get a new seat - getting him out of Parliament solves a lot of problems for him regarding "kings across the sea"
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    eek said:

    Why would Rishi help Bozo get a new seat - getting him out of Parliament solves a lot of problems for him regarding "kings across the sea"

    Does he have a veto over candidate selection? I dimly thought not, but may be wrong.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352
    eek said:

    Why would Rishi help Bozo get a new seat - getting him out of Parliament solves a lot of problems for him regarding "kings across the sea"

    I don't imagine Rishi really expects to be leader after the GE
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    @YouGov
    Overall, do you think that Suella Braverman is doing well or badly in her role as home secretary?

    All Britons
    Well: 19%
    Badly: 50%

    Con voters
    Well: 42%
    Badly: 33%
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Why would Rishi help Bozo get a new seat - getting him out of Parliament solves a lot of problems for him regarding "kings across the sea"

    Does he have a veto over candidate selection? I dimly thought not, but may be wrong.
    The best outcome for Rishi would be to insist Johnson fights his current seat, and somehow Rishi still wins (unlikley) but Johnson loses his seat..
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352
    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    eek said:

    Why would Rishi help Bozo get a new seat - getting him out of Parliament solves a lot of problems for him regarding "kings across the sea"

    No it doesn't. He might well literally go across the sea if he wasn't an MP any longer.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited April 2023
    I guess there’s four realistic options, when calculating the odds:

    1. He stands down voluntarily, before the election.
    2. He stands in Uxbridge and wins.
    3. He stands in Uxbridge and loses.
    4. He does a chicken run to a very safe seat, under cover of the boundary changes and a convenient retirement.

    How does:
    1. 3/1 25%
    2. 6/1 14%
    3. 10/3 27%
    4. 2/1 33%
    sound, for the rough odds of each? That adds a little closer to 50/50, than the 60/40 odds in the header.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    Why would Rishi help Bozo get a new seat - getting him out of Parliament solves a lot of problems for him regarding "kings across the sea"

    Does he have a veto over candidate selection? I dimly thought not, but may be wrong.
    The consitutency seems from the map to be changing fairly significantly - is that enough for Boris to be able to jump?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    Sandpit said:

    I guess there’s four realistic options, when calculating the odds:

    1. He stands down voluntarily, before the election.
    2. He stands in Uxbridge and wins.
    3. He stands in Uxbridge and loses.
    4. He does a chicken run to a very safe seat, under cover of the boundary changes and a convenient retirement.

    How does:
    1. 3/1 25%
    2. 6/1 14%
    3. 10/3 27%
    4. 2/1 33%
    sound, for the rough odds of each? That adds a little closer to 50/50, than the 60/40 odds in the header.

    What about suspension and recall before the next election?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    The MP for Henley, John Howell, is standing down, the same MP who replaced Boris Johnson in 2008.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,903
    I imagine that he will step down before the election if it looks like there's no way back to the Tory leadership, or indeed if it looks like a long slog as LotO is in the offing - which seems the likely scenario right now. The Tory establishment, which for some bizarre reason seems to think it owes Johnson a living, will find him some kind of a job in retirement. Editor of the Torygraph?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    She must be absolutely gutted.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    Not proven on one count if I remember correctly.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010
    edited April 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    Mostly. One charge was "not proven".
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    I guess there’s four realistic options, when calculating the odds:

    1. He stands down voluntarily, before the election.
    2. He stands in Uxbridge and wins.
    3. He stands in Uxbridge and loses.
    4. He does a chicken run to a very safe seat, under cover of the boundary changes and a convenient retirement.

    How does:
    1. 3/1 25%
    2. 6/1 14%
    3. 10/3 27%
    4. 2/1 33%
    sound, for the rough odds of each? That adds a little closer to 50/50, than the 60/40 odds in the header.

    What about suspension and recall before the next election?
    Ah yes, forgot that option. I don’t know enough about the workings of the process by which he might be suspended for long enough though.

    Wasn’t there talk about the punishment being put to a vote, and the committee not distinguishing between intentional and unintentional misleading of Parliament?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,281

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,352

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    She must be absolutely gutted.
    She will have to be judged on the SCALES of justice
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited April 2023
    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    She is innocent until proven guilty. The court in his case did not return a verdict of guilty. In both cases, the Scottish legal system presumes they did not commit any crime. At least at the moment.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    An idea: Boris could stand in one of those Aberdeenshire seats against the SNP.
  • Sandpit said:

    I guess there’s four realistic options, when calculating the odds:

    1. He stands down voluntarily, before the election.
    2. He stands in Uxbridge and wins.
    3. He stands in Uxbridge and loses.
    4. He does a chicken run to a very safe seat, under cover of the boundary changes and a convenient retirement.

    How does:
    1. 3/1 25%
    2. 6/1 14%
    3. 10/3 27%
    4. 2/1 33%
    sound, for the rough odds of each? That adds a little closer to 50/50, than the 60/40 odds in the header.

    Isn't the other realistic possibility that he stands down involuntarily before the election given the prospect of his being suspended for ten days or more, and a consequent recall petition?

    Also 1 and 4 aren't mutually exclusive. He could in theory stand down, to avoid suspension/recall, then have his arm twisted (!) to stand in a safe seat when a close friend makes a last minute decision not to stand on "health grounds".

    Personally, I'm not that sold on the idea of a chicken run. Parties were highly embarrassed by this in the 1990s particularly, and have moved to make it much harder. There is also no special reason why Sunak would want to make an exception for Johnson - indeed, quite the reverse. So I think it's not impossible, but less likely than most on here assume.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,478
    Andy_JS said:

    The MP for Henley, John Howell, is standing down, the same MP who replaced Boris Johnson in 2008.

    Wow, John Howell MP has certainly made a name for himself over the last 15 years.
    I suspect even his family don't know who he is.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Ouch, Mr Fauci, ouch


    “The former Director of National Intelligence agrees with the former CDC Director that Dr. Anthony Fauci lied to Congress under oath about funding gain-of-function research at the Wuhan lab:

    "Some of Dr. Fauci's testimony is inconsistent with some of the intelligence that we have that remains classified as well as inconsistent with some information that is publicly available”

    https://twitter.com/kanekoathegreat/status/1648406822620119041?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
  • Andy_JS said:

    An idea: Boris could stand in one of those Aberdeenshire seats against the SNP.

    The most amusing chicken run incident involved Aberdeenshire, coincidentally. Iain Sproat abandoned his ultra-marginal Aberdeen South seat in 1983 for the apparently safer berth of Roxburgh and Berwickshire. He lost to the Liberals, while Aberdeen was held by the Conservatives with relative ease (Gerry Malone who later went to Winchester although NOT as a chicken run as such - he lost Aberdeen in 1987).

    He'd badly misjudged R&B on the basis that, while the new seat was notionally good for the Liberals, he wrongly assumed that this was largely due to David Steel (who went with the other bit of his redrawn constituency in 1983) having a large personal vote which would fall away with a new candidate (Archie Kirkwood).
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,478
    Any Tory Association (or whatever they're called) may hesitate before anointing Boris. Yes, they get the glamour and attention, and a proven winner. But they also know, presumably, that if elected he would be an absentee MP (either making money or on holiday) for the subsequent 4/5 years, and do the bare minimum for his constituency and for his constituents.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,168
    edited April 2023

    Any Tory Association (or whatever they're called) may hesitate before anointing Boris. Yes, they get the glamour and attention, and a proven winner. But they also know, presumably, that if elected he would be an absentee MP (either making money or on holiday) for the subsequent 4/5 years, and do the bare minimum for his constituency and for his constituents.

    Do Tory members in an ultra-safe seat really care about how diligently he personally pursues housing and street lighting matters locally?

    I can see why it matters to members in a marginal but, realistically, doesn't even the faded glamour of Johnson massively outweigh the quiet diligence of a Bob Nobody MP in an ultra-safe Tory seat?

    I'm not talking about what members should think, incidentally, but being realistic about how people do make these decisions.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,714
    Is there really much of a point to Boris anymore? He can't lend his campaigning skills to the Tories at the next election as everyone will think (probably correctly) that he hates Rishi's guts. Rishi has trashed Boris's legacy by highlighting that 'Get Brexit Done' was little more than a con job. And Boris can't even return to his putting-the-world-to-rights Telegraph columns. That would just be ridiculous when you consider the bugger's muddle he made of everything when he did actually rule us. Boris seems totally redundant.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Given that he has pledged to "pass new laws" not to "stop the boats", is it really a question?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Given that he has pledged to "pass new laws" not to "stop the boats", is it really a question?
    Well, one does hope for a slight glimmer of genuine political ambition sometimes, but yes, it's probably naive.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592
    FPT
    Dura_Ace said:

    kjh said:

    There is quite a list Dominion and Smartmatic are suing and presumably they are all probably going the same way with a few bankruptcies on the way, but why isn't Trump on that list. Struggling to understand why not.

    Because he might be president again in 19 months time and they don't need the hassle of his narcissistic vengeance while they can get plenty of settlement cash out the other shitstains like Fox, Crazy Rudy, etc.
    It seems that there is case law (Nixon v. Fitzgerald) from when Nixon was President that gives sitting Presidents enjoy absolute immunity from civil liability for actions taken in an official (rather than personal) capacity.

    https://www.justsecurity.org/82447/8-top-experts-on-strength-of-a-dominion-defamation-case-against-donald-trump/

    And I suspect (seem to remember) Donald Trump went very quiet as soon as Biden was sworn in...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468

    Any Tory Association (or whatever they're called) may hesitate before anointing Boris. Yes, they get the glamour and attention, and a proven winner. But they also know, presumably, that if elected he would be an absentee MP (either making money or on holiday) for the subsequent 4/5 years, and do the bare minimum for his constituency and for his constituents.

    Do Tory members in an ultra-safe seat really care about how diligently he personally pursues housing and street lighting matters locally?

    I can see why it matters to members in a marginal but, realistically, doesn't even the faded glamour of Johnson massively outweigh the quiet diligence of a Bob Nobody MP in an ultra-safe Tory seat?

    I'm not talking about what members should think, incidentally, but being realistic about how people do make these decisions.
    See Suella Braverman's win in the Battle For Fareham.

    As for Boris, as things stand he's been selected for Uxbridge and that won't be that easy for him to wriggle out of.

    And if he were to try to chicken run, he seems like a prime candidate for a Martin Bell-style White Suit opponent.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Usual garbage from Foemain though, does not understand that when you are found not guilty it means you were innocent of teh charges.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010
    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Square/rectangle.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010
    edited April 2023
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Usual garbage from Foemain though, does not understand that when you are found not guilty it means you were innocent of teh charges.
    OJ Simpson says hi.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Let's highlight the actual issue


    At the end of 2018, there were 27,256 cases awaiting an initial asylum claim decision.

    End of 2020: 77,245 cases.

    End of 2021: 81,978 cases.

    By the end of 2022, there were 132,182 cases (160,919 if we include family members applying with them).

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    Think there are a load of Typhoons practicing for the coronation over the North Sea.

    Or something is up.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    edited April 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Pledge 1 is meaningless. If you halve inflation, say from 10% to 5% (BTW they haven't) you don't ease the cost of living, you increase it - by 5% instead of zero.

    Pledge 5 is tortuous politicised language. 'Passing new laws' is easy. The bit of the pledge involving actually running the country properly is hard, and is only indirectly stated.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    Eabhal said:

    Think there are a load of Typhoons practicing for the coronation over the North Sea.

    Or something is up.

    They were chasing bears away, earlier this week.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Let's highlight the actual issue


    At the end of 2018, there were 27,256 cases awaiting an initial asylum claim decision.

    End of 2020: 77,245 cases.

    End of 2021: 81,978 cases.

    By the end of 2022, there were 132,182 cases (160,919 if we include family members applying with them).

    I quite agree - the fact that our Civil Service is completely unfit for purpose is also a big issue and a contributing factor. Nevertheless, it is a fact that, when word spreads that there is no longer a viable route into the UK by small boat, the small boats evaporate, completely, overnight. It merely requires the approach to be sufficiently robust.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    I suspect that the SNP will do all it can to avoid the Saintly Nicola from carrying the can for anything.

    Which will be aided by her remembering nothing.

    What a supremely talented liar she is.
  • Excellent speech by Rishi Sunak in Northern Ireland
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Think there are a load of Typhoons practicing for the coronation over the North Sea.

    Or something is up.

    They were chasing bears away, earlier this week.
    There are 10 of them haha!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    FYI, the Food and Drink Federation (@Foodanddrinkfed) publishes a handy monthly dashboard of the latest #food price indicators... 👇

    (the UK figure below should be the internationally comparable CPI 19.1%, not the CPIH 19.2%, but I'll let that pass! 🤓)

    fdf.org.uk/contentassets/…


    https://twitter.com/julianhjessop/status/1648688949731160069?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited April 2023
    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Given that he has pledged to "pass new laws" not to "stop the boats", is it really a question?
    If he can’t pass new laws, with a majority of more than 70, then he’s clearly not in control of his own party. The electorate that will judge him on this pledge, actually expect the boats to stop coming, or at least daily flights to Rwanda.

    He doesn’t have the balls to pass a law that says that if a judge orders you deported, you leave that night, either to Rwanda or a country that agrees to accept you. If you wish to appeal, it’s done from abroad at your own expense.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,067

    Andy_JS said:

    An idea: Boris could stand in one of those Aberdeenshire seats against the SNP.

    The most amusing chicken run incident involved Aberdeenshire, coincidentally. Iain Sproat abandoned his ultra-marginal Aberdeen South seat in 1983 for the apparently safer berth of Roxburgh and Berwickshire. He lost to the Liberals, while Aberdeen was held by the Conservatives with relative ease (Gerry Malone who later went to Winchester although NOT as a chicken run as such - he lost Aberdeen in 1987).

    He'd badly misjudged R&B on the basis that, while the new seat was notionally good for the Liberals, he wrongly assumed that this was largely due to David Steel (who went with the other bit of his redrawn constituency in 1983) having a large personal vote which would fall away with a new candidate (Archie Kirkwood).
    A case of negative incumbency factor? Voters more likely to vote Conservative now that Iain Sproat was no longer the candidate?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Pledge 1 is meaningless. If you halve inflation, say from 10% to 5% (BTW they haven't) you don't ease the cost of living, you increase it - by 5% instead of zero.

    Pledge 5 is tortuous politicised language. 'Passing new laws' is easy. The bit of the pledge involving actually running the country properly is hard, and is only indirectly stated.

    I see you're busy getting ready to defend your irrational defection to Starmer for when Sunak delivers on all his five pledges.

    Interesting.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Not necessarily. It just shows that the prosecution failed to reach the required standard of proof of guilt. Hence the verdict is "not guilty" or "not proven" rather than "innocent".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Just sold my beloved Mini SUPER black and blue JCW mega car, the car I should've died in at least twice

    A weirdly melancholy moment. Bit like losing a pet
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Think there are a load of Typhoons practicing for the coronation over the North Sea.

    Or something is up.

    They were chasing bears away, earlier this week.
    There are 10 of them haha!
    That’s either a lot of bears, or a Coronation flypast rehearsal!
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Eabhal said:

    Think there are a load of Typhoons practicing for the coronation over the North Sea.

    Or something is up.

    I happened to randomly check FlightRadar this morning and the previously usually solitary Rivet Joint UK monitoring plane on the Black Sea is now accompanied by a Typhoon. Not really surprising after previous incidents.
  • Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Given that he has pledged to "pass new laws" not to "stop the boats", is it really a question?
    "We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed."

    The pledge is to stop the boats by passing new laws, not to pass new laws and that is the end of it. The lectern didn't say "Pass New Laws". It said "Stop The Boats".

    It is a very simple pledge. That he cannot deliver. So trying to worm out of it by denying he pledged to Stop The Boats whilst standing behind a Stop The Boats lectern giving an "I will Stop The Boats" speech is brass balls on your part.

    Your problem is that people aren't as stupid as you think they are. Yer man said Stop The Boats and they expect the boats to be stopped.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Given that he has pledged to "pass new laws" not to "stop the boats", is it really a question?
    "We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed."

    The pledge is to stop the boats by passing new laws, not to pass new laws and that is the end of it. The lectern didn't say "Pass New Laws". It said "Stop The Boats".

    It is a very simple pledge. That he cannot deliver. So trying to worm out of it by denying he pledged to Stop The Boats whilst standing behind a Stop The Boats lectern giving an "I will Stop The Boats" speech is brass balls on your part.

    Your problem is that people aren't as stupid as you think they are. Yer man said Stop The Boats and they expect the boats to be stopped.
    You are correct that he wants people to think he has pledged to stop the boats.

    But he's not "my man". I'm just thinking ahead.
  • Leon said:

    Just sold my beloved Mini SUPER black and blue JCW mega car, the car I should've died in at least twice

    A weirdly melancholy moment. Bit like losing a pet

    I adored my 2015 MINI Cooper. Only the 3 pot but it was sodding rapid. Utterly impractical and largely uncomfortable, but 3 doors in BRG and white stripes / roof it looked fab.

    But I sold it without hesitation when we needed a new car for wifey and we were offered more for it in PX than was sensible. The only other car I had such an attachment to was the Volvo S90 which was just the most sumptuous of luxo-barges. Boring to drive and an annoying powertrain, but just a beautiful thing. Chopped in for an SUV having moved up hear because 20" wheels and rubber band tyres on a looooong car was a Bad Idea.
  • Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Given that he has pledged to "pass new laws" not to "stop the boats", is it really a question?
    "We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed."

    The pledge is to stop the boats by passing new laws, not to pass new laws and that is the end of it. The lectern didn't say "Pass New Laws". It said "Stop The Boats".

    It is a very simple pledge. That he cannot deliver. So trying to worm out of it by denying he pledged to Stop The Boats whilst standing behind a Stop The Boats lectern giving an "I will Stop The Boats" speech is brass balls on your part.

    Your problem is that people aren't as stupid as you think they are. Yer man said Stop The Boats and they expect the boats to be stopped.
    You are correct that he wants people to think he has pledged to stop the boats.

    But he's not "my man". I'm just thinking ahead.
    No. He doesn't want people to *think* he has pledged to stop the boats.

    He HAS pledged to Stop The Boats.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Given that he has pledged to "pass new laws" not to "stop the boats", is it really a question?
    "We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed."

    The pledge is to stop the boats by passing new laws, not to pass new laws and that is the end of it. The lectern didn't say "Pass New Laws". It said "Stop The Boats".

    It is a very simple pledge. That he cannot deliver. So trying to worm out of it by denying he pledged to Stop The Boats whilst standing behind a Stop The Boats lectern giving an "I will Stop The Boats" speech is brass balls on your part.

    Your problem is that people aren't as stupid as you think they are. Yer man said Stop The Boats and they expect the boats to be stopped.
    You are correct that he wants people to think he has pledged to stop the boats.

    But he's not "my man". I'm just thinking ahead.
    No. He doesn't want people to *think* he has pledged to stop the boats.

    He HAS pledged to Stop The Boats.
    I'm sorry that you can't understand what was written even after it's been explained to you, but I'll try one last time.

    The words "pass new laws to" are there for a reason. They don't appear in the other four pledges.

    If you don't get it now, you never will.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,961
    Leon said:

    Just sold my beloved Mini SUPER black and blue JCW mega car, the car I should've died in at least twice

    A weirdly melancholy moment. Bit like losing a pet

    Don't know how you found space to park it in central London.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    Just sold my beloved Mini SUPER black and blue JCW mega car, the car I should've died in at least twice

    A weirdly melancholy moment. Bit like losing a pet

    I adored my 2015 MINI Cooper. Only the 3 pot but it was sodding rapid. Utterly impractical and largely uncomfortable, but 3 doors in BRG and white stripes / roof it looked fab.

    But I sold it without hesitation when we needed a new car for wifey and we were offered more for it in PX than was sensible. The only other car I had such an attachment to was the Volvo S90 which was just the most sumptuous of luxo-barges. Boring to drive and an annoying powertrain, but just a beautiful thing. Chopped in for an SUV having moved up hear because 20" wheels and rubber band tyres on a looooong car was a Bad Idea.
    Yeah, I LOVED this car I just sold. It was a blast. And it looked cool with that unique roof

    The last time I was this sentimental about a vehicle was when I sold my first proper motorbike, a Kawasaki 200CC at the age of 19. We had some fun times, me and the Kwakker

    How do you get emotionally attached to a machine? It' s a strange thing, but it happens. You do

    OTOH I know I've done the right thing. Spending so much time either in central London or in other countries, a car becomes a highly expensive, near-pointless liability, and a positive source of anxiety if I leave it parked somewhere for 3 months while I'm in foreign parts

    Sic Transit Van Gloria Mundi
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Just sold my beloved Mini SUPER black and blue JCW mega car, the car I should've died in at least twice

    A weirdly melancholy moment. Bit like losing a pet

    Don't know how you found space to park it in central London.
    You buy a parking permit! £150 a year from Camden Council

    That was one thing that was easy and non hassly. Plenty of spaces

    It was everything else that was a source of vexation, except when I was driving it and grooving at the rortiness
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    Driver said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Usual garbage from Foemain though, does not understand that when you are found not guilty it means you were innocent of teh charges.
    OJ Simpson says hi.
    USA is a special case, you can put 60 bullets in someone there and be innocent
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,468
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Given that he has pledged to "pass new laws" not to "stop the boats", is it really a question?
    "We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed."

    The pledge is to stop the boats by passing new laws, not to pass new laws and that is the end of it. The lectern didn't say "Pass New Laws". It said "Stop The Boats".

    It is a very simple pledge. That he cannot deliver. So trying to worm out of it by denying he pledged to Stop The Boats whilst standing behind a Stop The Boats lectern giving an "I will Stop The Boats" speech is brass balls on your part.

    Your problem is that people aren't as stupid as you think they are. Yer man said Stop The Boats and they expect the boats to be stopped.
    You are correct that he wants people to think he has pledged to stop the boats.

    But he's not "my man". I'm just thinking ahead.
    No. He doesn't want people to *think* he has pledged to stop the boats.

    He HAS pledged to Stop The Boats.
    I'm sorry that you can't understand what was written even after it's been explained to you, but I'll try one last time.

    The words "pass new laws to" are there for a reason. They don't appear in the other four pledges.

    If you don't get it now, you never will.
    That may well be the theory.

    But if the boats keep coming and Sunak and Braverman try to rely on "we passed a law" as a get out, they will be regarded as weak and weaseley.

    For weak and weaseley they will have been.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Not necessarily. It just shows that the prosecution failed to reach the required standard of proof of guilt. Hence the verdict is "not guilty" or "not proven" rather than "innocent".
    Keep dancing on that pin head
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    I suspect that the SNP will do all it can to avoid the Saintly Nicola from carrying the can for anything.

    Which will be aided by her remembering nothing.

    What a supremely talented liar she is.
    She is on the hook for the finances as party leader so no useful idiot to push under the bus.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,177
    edited April 2023
    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Not necessarily. It just shows that the prosecution failed to reach the required standard of proof of guilt. Hence the verdict is "not guilty" or "not proven" rather than "innocent".
    Keep dancing on that pin head
    That pin head is covered in lawyers charging 4 figures a day. Schools of them live there.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,947
    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Not necessarily. It just shows that the prosecution failed to reach the required standard of proof of guilt. Hence the verdict is "not guilty" or "not proven" rather than "innocent".
    Keep dancing on that pin head
    I don't think it is Malcolm. For instance if you bring a civil case for the same thing you could be found liable in the civil case but not guilty in the criminal case because they have different burdens of proof and it is far from unknown for this to happen.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,010
    .

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Given that he has pledged to "pass new laws" not to "stop the boats", is it really a question?
    "We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed."

    The pledge is to stop the boats by passing new laws, not to pass new laws and that is the end of it. The lectern didn't say "Pass New Laws". It said "Stop The Boats".

    It is a very simple pledge. That he cannot deliver. So trying to worm out of it by denying he pledged to Stop The Boats whilst standing behind a Stop The Boats lectern giving an "I will Stop The Boats" speech is brass balls on your part.

    Your problem is that people aren't as stupid as you think they are. Yer man said Stop The Boats and they expect the boats to be stopped.
    You are correct that he wants people to think he has pledged to stop the boats.

    But he's not "my man". I'm just thinking ahead.
    No. He doesn't want people to *think* he has pledged to stop the boats.

    He HAS pledged to Stop The Boats.
    I'm sorry that you can't understand what was written even after it's been explained to you, but I'll try one last time.

    The words "pass new laws to" are there for a reason. They don't appear in the other four pledges.

    If you don't get it now, you never will.
    That may well be the theory.

    But if the boats keep coming and Sunak and Braverman try to rely on "we passed a law" as a get out, they will be regarded as weak and weaseley.

    For weak and weaseley they will have been.
    Oh, yeah, absolutely. They're relying on "we've done everything anyone could" and contrasting with Labour's instincts to just open the borders.

    Which is likely courageous in the Sir Humphrey sense of the word.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Would be apt, albeit rather short at only five words.

    Failed
    Failed
    Failed
    Failed
    Failed
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592
    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    I suspect that the SNP will do all it can to avoid the Saintly Nicola from carrying the can for anything.

    Which will be aided by her remembering nothing.

    What a supremely talented liar she is.
    She is on the hook for the finances as party leader so no useful idiot to push under the bus.
    So she is going to have to sell the motorhome that she owns but can't drive?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198
    Scott_xP said:

    @YouGov
    Overall, do you think that Suella Braverman is doing well or badly in her role as home secretary?

    All Britons
    Well: 19%
    Badly: 50%

    Con voters
    Well: 42%
    Badly: 33%

    I don’t believe 50% of Brits know who she is. I also don’t believe that 42% of Tory *voters* do.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited April 2023
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Just sold my beloved Mini SUPER black and blue JCW mega car, the car I should've died in at least twice

    A weirdly melancholy moment. Bit like losing a pet

    Don't know how you found space to park it in central London.
    You buy a parking permit! £150 a year from Camden Council

    That was one thing that was easy and non hassly. Plenty of spaces

    It was everything else that was a source of vexation, except when I was driving it and grooving at the rortiness
    I used to drive 50,000 miles in the UK every year, working for a company that sold IT to pubs and restaurants.

    The only time I ever had my car towed, was on the Parkway in Camden. Cost me £155 to get it back, and my company would only pay half of it. A load of very confusing signs, that the paid parking finishes at 4pm, after which time it becomes a no waiting zone. The ticket was written at 16:02, and the removal happened at 16:16. It’s two miles’ walk, in the rain as it happened, wearing a suit, from Parkway to the Kentish Town car pound.

    Edit: special mention to Westminster, where the metered spaces are free after 18:30, but the single yellows are valid until 19:00. A ticket timed at 18:58 on a single yellow, for £80. Yet no signs on each yellow, you’re supposed to know that as you enter the ‘zone’.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Not necessarily. It just shows that the prosecution failed to reach the required standard of proof of guilt. Hence the verdict is "not guilty" or "not proven" rather than "innocent".
    Keep dancing on that pin head
    I don't think it is Malcolm. For instance if you bring a civil case for the same thing you could be found liable in the civil case but not guilty in the criminal case because they have different burdens of proof and it is far from unknown for this to happen.
    O J Simpson was found to have committed his wife's death in a civil court.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Not necessarily. It just shows that the prosecution failed to reach the required standard of proof of guilt. Hence the verdict is "not guilty" or "not proven" rather than "innocent".
    Keep dancing on that pin head
    I don't think it is Malcolm. For instance if you bring a civil case for the same thing you could be found liable in the civil case but not guilty in the criminal case because they have different burdens of proof and it is far from unknown for this to happen.
    We can dance round the handbags but when you are in court and a jury finds you Not Guilty then you are innocent of the charges.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    I suspect that the SNP will do all it can to avoid the Saintly Nicola from carrying the can for anything.

    Which will be aided by her remembering nothing.

    What a supremely talented liar she is.
    She is on the hook for the finances as party leader so no useful idiot to push under the bus.
    So she is going to have to sell the motorhome that she owns but can't drive?
    That motorhome is heading to a polis auction in a couple of years’ time. By which time it will have sat idle for four years, and be pretty much worthless.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,947
    malcolmg said:

    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Not necessarily. It just shows that the prosecution failed to reach the required standard of proof of guilt. Hence the verdict is "not guilty" or "not proven" rather than "innocent".
    Keep dancing on that pin head
    I don't think it is Malcolm. For instance if you bring a civil case for the same thing you could be found liable in the civil case but not guilty in the criminal case because they have different burdens of proof and it is far from unknown for this to happen.
    We can dance round the handbags but when you are in court and a jury finds you Not Guilty then you are innocent of the charges.
    Good reply. And I guess that is how people view it.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @YouGov
    Overall, do you think that Suella Braverman is doing well or badly in her role as home secretary?

    All Britons
    Well: 19%
    Badly: 50%

    Con voters
    Well: 42%
    Badly: 33%

    I don’t believe 50% of Brits know who she is. I also don’t believe that 42% of Tory *voters* do.
    Yougov have her recognition at 68% alongside Kinnock and Mordaunt. Sounds about right.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,238
    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Not necessarily. It just shows that the prosecution failed to reach the required standard of proof of guilt. Hence the verdict is "not guilty" or "not proven" rather than "innocent".
    Keep dancing on that pin head
    I don't think it is Malcolm. For instance if you bring a civil case for the same thing you could be found liable in the civil case but not guilty in the criminal case because they have different burdens of proof and it is far from unknown for this to happen.
    We can dance round the handbags but when you are in court and a jury finds you Not Guilty then you are innocent of the charges.
    Good reply. And I guess that is how people view it.
    Not when you know they have done it.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,888
    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    No as she is guilty whereas as found by a jury of his peers , he was innocent.
    I thought he was found not guilty?
    does innocent not equal Not Guilty
    Not necessarily. It just shows that the prosecution failed to reach the required standard of proof of guilt. Hence the verdict is "not guilty" or "not proven" rather than "innocent".
    Keep dancing on that pin head
    I don't think it is Malcolm. For instance if you bring a civil case for the same thing you could be found liable in the civil case but not guilty in the criminal case because they have different burdens of proof and it is far from unknown for this to happen.
    A pedant notes:

    a) Standard of proof, not burden of proof.

    Burden of proof is 'who has to prove'
    Standard of proof is 'to what level of certainty'

    b) There is no such thing in UK criminal law as a finding of innocence. Everyone is deemed to be innocent of everything until and unless convicted by a verdict of guilty. A finding of innocence is never required. You already are innocent.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    I suspect that the SNP will do all it can to avoid the Saintly Nicola from carrying the can for anything.

    Which will be aided by her remembering nothing.

    What a supremely talented liar she is.
    She is on the hook for the finances as party leader so no useful idiot to push under the bus.
    So she is going to have to sell the motorhome that she owns but can't drive?
    That motorhome is heading to a polis auction in a couple of years’ time. By which time it will have sat idle for four years, and be pretty much worthless.
    Be a good buy at auction
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Just sold my beloved Mini SUPER black and blue JCW mega car, the car I should've died in at least twice

    A weirdly melancholy moment. Bit like losing a pet

    Don't know how you found space to park it in central London.
    You buy a parking permit! £150 a year from Camden Council

    That was one thing that was easy and non hassly. Plenty of spaces

    It was everything else that was a source of vexation, except when I was driving it and grooving at the rortiness
    https://www.brompton.com/

    Pairs well with venison.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,730
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    I suspect that the SNP will do all it can to avoid the Saintly Nicola from carrying the can for anything.

    Which will be aided by her remembering nothing.

    What a supremely talented liar she is.
    She is on the hook for the finances as party leader so no useful idiot to push under the bus.
    So she is going to have to sell the motorhome that she owns but can't drive?
    That motorhome is heading to a polis auction in a couple of years’ time. By which time it will have sat idle for four years, and be pretty much worthless.
    I very much doubt it will be worthless.

    It would make a good allotment shed.
  • Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Just sold my beloved Mini SUPER black and blue JCW mega car, the car I should've died in at least twice

    A weirdly melancholy moment. Bit like losing a pet

    Don't know how you found space to park it in central London.
    You buy a parking permit! £150 a year from Camden Council

    That was one thing that was easy and non hassly. Plenty of spaces

    It was everything else that was a source of vexation, except when I was driving it and grooving at the rortiness
    I used to drive 50,000 miles in the UK every year, working for a company that sold IT to pubs and restaurants.

    The only time I ever had my car towed, was on the Parkway in Camden. Cost me £155 to get it back, and my company would only pay half of it. A load of very confusing signs, that the paid parking finishes at 4pm, after which time it becomes a no waiting zone. The ticket was written at 16:02, and the removal happened at 16:16. It’s two miles’ walk, in the rain as it happened, wearing a suit, from Parkway to the Kentish Town car pound.

    Edit: special mention to Westminster, where the metered spaces are free after 18:30, but the single yellows are valid until 19:00. A ticket timed at 18:58 on a single yellow, for £80. Yet no signs on each yellow, you’re supposed to know that as you enter the ‘zone’.
    Hate to tell you this now but you could have got the 88 (or C2 as it was probably then) from Parkway and it would have dropped you off 400 yards from the pound.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,238

    Any guesses as to when the Sturgeon will be arrested? If she is, will she get off the hook, like Salmond?

    She must be absolutely gutted.
    Filleted?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592
    Driver said:

    .

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does Henley even want the Clown Prince as its MP?

    Do we even want to devote another thread to the old bluffer ?
    We could have a thread about how the current PM is doing on his 5 rock solid pledges:
    1. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people financial security.
    2. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country.
    3. We will make sure our national debt is falling so that we can secure the future of public services.
    4. NHS waiting lists will fall and people will get the care they need more quickly.
    5. We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed.

    Of those, only 1 and 2 are really quantifiable.
    3 and 4 require clarification, and leave a lot of ambiguity.

    Which leaves 5. The electorate expect the crossings to actually stop, not politicians talking about stopping the boats or legislating to stop the boats. Australia actually stopped the boats.
    If the new laws are robust and seen to be so, the boats stop. Even a 30-70 chance of deportation/Rwanda would probably be enough to stop them completely. You have to question whether Sunak has any real intention of doing anything about it.
    Given that he has pledged to "pass new laws" not to "stop the boats", is it really a question?
    "We will pass new laws to stop small boats, making sure that if you come to this country illegally, you are detained and swiftly removed."

    The pledge is to stop the boats by passing new laws, not to pass new laws and that is the end of it. The lectern didn't say "Pass New Laws". It said "Stop The Boats".

    It is a very simple pledge. That he cannot deliver. So trying to worm out of it by denying he pledged to Stop The Boats whilst standing behind a Stop The Boats lectern giving an "I will Stop The Boats" speech is brass balls on your part.

    Your problem is that people aren't as stupid as you think they are. Yer man said Stop The Boats and they expect the boats to be stopped.
    You are correct that he wants people to think he has pledged to stop the boats.

    But he's not "my man". I'm just thinking ahead.
    No. He doesn't want people to *think* he has pledged to stop the boats.

    He HAS pledged to Stop The Boats.
    I'm sorry that you can't understand what was written even after it's been explained to you, but I'll try one last time.

    The words "pass new laws to" are there for a reason. They don't appear in the other four pledges.

    If you don't get it now, you never will.
    That may well be the theory.

    But if the boats keep coming and Sunak and Braverman try to rely on "we passed a law" as a get out, they will be regarded as weak and weaseley.

    For weak and weaseley they will have been.
    Oh, yeah, absolutely. They're relying on "we've done everything anyone could" and contrasting with Labour's instincts to just open the borders.

    Which is likely courageous in the Sir Humphrey sense of the word.
    Everything we could doesn't last very long when presented with

    At the end of 2018, there were 27,256 cases awaiting an initial asylum claim decision.

    End of 2020: 77,245 cases.

    End of 2021: 81,978 cases.

    By the end of 2022, there were 132,182 cases (160,919 if we include family members applying with them).

    Because that shows that they simply aren't processing cases at all let alone not quickly enough.
This discussion has been closed.