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Starmer gets the best Ipsos ratings – Truss the worst – politicalbetting.com

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  • Are the Tories more unpopular than Labour was in 2019?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Keir Starmer: Man on a Mission. More than that even - Man on 5 Missions.

    SKS: "We have five missions to give us focus."
    Foci, surely? :wink:
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Keir Starmer: Man on a Mission. More than that even - Man on 5 Missions.

    SKS: "We have five missions to give us focus."
    It's actually ONE mission - GTTO!
    That is not a mission, it's just a prerequisite to doing what Labour wants to do to make the country better.

    If "GTTO" is the extent of what Labour stands for, their time in office will be worse than the current government.
    Particularly when you consider that the current government has already done most of the work in the GTTO cause...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,304

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    Like the way he describes her actions as a "mistake" as if joining an organisation that beheaded people and burnt them alive, and watching gay men being thrown to their deaths, was comparable to not paying a parking ticket. Some of the Hitler Youth should have had this chap on board.
    Otto English is a nasty, detestable c8nt
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,526
    FF43 said:

    The interesting one is Jeremy Corbyn. Only slightly more unfavourable than Boris Johnson.

    A rerun of 2019 today would be an interesting contest.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Selebian said:

    Driver said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Keir Starmer: Man on a Mission. More than that even - Man on 5 Missions.

    SKS: "We have five missions to give us focus."
    It's actually ONE mission - GTTO!
    That is not a mission, it's just a prerequisite to doing what Labour wants to do to make the country better.

    If "GTTO" is the extent of what Labour stands for, their time in office will be worse than the current government.
    Particularly when you consider that the current government has already done most of the work in the GTTO cause...
    Well, quite.
  • Nigelb said:

    Fun list from the Guardian, with a few spoilers. Some there I haven’t seen and might look up.
    Can anyone improve on their suggestions ?
    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/feb/23/the-20-best-time-travel-movies-ranked

    Would put La Jetée (1962) in the top 20 myself. 28 minutes long, made of a sequence of still photographs and served as the premise for 12 Monkeys. It's a film which is unlike most others and which lingers in the memory.
    Yep I would put both La Jette and 12 Monkeys above most films on that list
  • Jeremy Corbyn and the left of the Labour Party must never be allowed near the Labour Party leadership ever, ever again.

    I hope GE19 has done enough to put them away for a generation at least, I've certainly gone back to my natural centre left politics.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Five graphs that show Humza’s health service disaster
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-humza-has-ruined-the-health-service-in-five-graphs/
    Not easy to whitewash.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,052

    Are the Tories more unpopular than Labour was in 2019?

    I think it’s a different unpopularity (whether higher or lower than Corbynite Labour). It’s fatigue. And that’s much harder to recover from.

    All Labour had to do was sack Corbyn’s mob and stop being racist. No obvious cure for the Tories other than “trust the economy comes good, bribe the voters, and hope Starmer calls Judie Dench names or does something equally unforgivable”.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    Nice detail on Humza Useless here.

    We got up this morning intending to do a funny little piece about how Humza Yousaf’s attempt to fiddle an online poll on The National had spiralled into farce last night, with rival teams of bots spamming the poll with over 400,000 extra votes in 12 hours.
    But then something a bit more significant happened.


    https://wingsoverscotland.com/sunk-costs/
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    geoffw said:

    Five graphs that show Humza’s health service disaster
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-humza-has-ruined-the-health-service-in-five-graphs/
    Not easy to whitewash.

    But easy to cherrypick statistics to show what you want, particularly if there's a handy pandemic providing an inflection point for most.

    As I've posted before, for a different set, you need to compare to England, other UK, other comparable countries. The drugs one is interesting, but also needs comparison with other places and perhaps with alcohol/other related deaths - i.e. is minimum alcohol pricing shifting people onto abusing other substances (I don't know whether this is the case, but it would give a bigger picture).

    Compare and contrast the cheap shot 'statistics' work of the Spectator with the work of Burn-Murdoch et al at the FT.

    It may be that Sturgeon and Yousaf have been a disaster for Scotland, but a few hand-picked graphs don't show it.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    I’m as sad as everyone about John Motson’s passing but lead story on the BBC website…? Really?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    Ash Regan brings former Alba Holyrood candidate onto SNP leadership campaign https://thenational.scot/news/23340620.ash-regan-brings-kirk-torrance-onto-snp-leadership-campaign/?ref=twtrec Ash Regan is accused of talking to some of the best campaigners and thinkers in Scotland. Shouldn’t people be welcoming that?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    I suspect we’ll be seeing more of this….


    Just about Putin's only hope now is that America is crazy enough to hand the Oval Office back to Donald Trump, who then does Putin's bidding and cuts off support for Ukraine.

    Hopefully everyone here can agree that will be a terrible scenario.
    I believe Joe’s ratings are on the up? Mind you I thought he looked awfully tottery when he was biffing about the streets of Kiev, don’t like to think of him doing another 4 gruelling years.
    Biden is very probably the most underrated leader in world politics
    Do you think that's due to his age, or for other reasons?

    I find it possible to imagine that things would be quite different if he were twenty years younger, but then I wonder whether part of the issue is the nature of the times and it's extreme partisanship.

    It’s chiefly common or garden ageism

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Selebian said:

    geoffw said:

    Five graphs that show Humza’s health service disaster
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-humza-has-ruined-the-health-service-in-five-graphs/
    Not easy to whitewash.

    … …
    Compare and contrast the cheap shot 'statistics' work of the Spectator with the work of Burn-Murdoch et al at the FT.

    It may be that Sturgeon and Yousaf have been a disaster for Scotland, but a few hand-picked graphs don't show it.
    Please provide a link to Burn-Murdoch's analysis of Humza's record.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839
    malcolmg said:


    Nice detail on Humza Useless here.

    We got up this morning intending to do a funny little piece about how Humza Yousaf’s attempt to fiddle an online poll on The National had spiralled into farce last night, with rival teams of bots spamming the poll with over 400,000 extra votes in 12 hours.
    But then something a bit more significant happened.


    https://wingsoverscotland.com/sunk-costs/

    Hmm. "We rang Companies House a few minutes ago and they told us that the notice COULD just mean that Ferguson Marine had failed to file its accounts on time (in which case Companies House would have initiated this move itself), or that Ferguson might have notified them that it intended to cease trading.

    In either case the First Gazette notice would be the result, and it wasn’t yet possible for CH to tell us which it was."
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    DougSeal said:

    I’m as sad as everyone about John Motson’s passing but lead story on the BBC website…? Really?

    One of their own.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361
    DougSeal said:

    I’m as sad as everyone about John Motson’s passing but lead story on the BBC website…? Really?

    The BBC always give top billing to news stories about the BBC.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    I suspect we’ll be seeing more of this….


    Just about Putin's only hope now is that America is crazy enough to hand the Oval Office back to Donald Trump, who then does Putin's bidding and cuts off support for Ukraine.

    Hopefully everyone here can agree that will be a terrible scenario.
    I believe Joe’s ratings are on the up? Mind you I thought he looked awfully tottery when he was biffing about the streets of Kiev, don’t like to think of him doing another 4 gruelling years.
    No one does, really.
    But there’s no clear way around the fact that it’s not obvious who would challenge him if he decides to run again, and even less so who might do so successfully.
    I’ve just realised Kate Forbes would do great in the Dems..
    Depends on which state, but yes.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    biggles said:

    Are the Tories more unpopular than Labour was in 2019?

    I think it’s a different unpopularity (whether higher or lower than Corbynite Labour). It’s fatigue. And that’s much harder to recover from.

    All Labour had to do was sack Corbyn’s mob and stop being racist. No obvious cure for the Tories other than “trust the economy comes good, bribe the voters, and hope Starmer calls Judie Dench names or does something equally unforgivable”.
    A Cameronesque figure could do it for the Tories (not before the next election!). But they'd have to get behind him/her, out of their comfort zone, as they did with Cameron when they quietly sucked up the hug a hoodie, equal marriage rights and 'green shit' to convince enough of the electorate that they'd changed (this time it might be a closer relationship with the EU, either proposed or embracing changes made by a Labour government). And they'd also have to take the required electoral kicking. The public want to dish out a punishment beating and see the back of many of the current key government figures. After that, they'll likely be more open to talk, particularly if Labour (are seen to) mess up.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,358

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Keir Starmer: Man on a Mission. More than that even - Man on 5 Missions.

    SKS: "We have five missions to give us focus."
    Not nonsensical when you consider that's why governments have cabinet ministers and departments.

    I'm a not a Starmer fan, probably won't even vote Labour, but recent efforts to mock him aren't very effective.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,765

    Jeremy Corbyn and the left of the Labour Party must never be allowed near the Labour Party leadership ever, ever again.

    I hope GE19 has done enough to put them away for a generation at least, I've certainly gone back to my natural centre left politics.

    Its not though about Corbyn's leadership it's about how he got there, and stayed there.

    It's obviously really difficult to want democracy in a political party and then belly-ache over the result. So I completely understand how Corbyn was in place for a long while. What was Labour's big problem was that so many of the party's member were prepared to vote for him. It was their problem and still is their problem.

    Labour under Starmer seems a perfectly electable and sensible proposition until you lift the floorboards.

    And in my view the problem all stems from the dogged hanging on to 19th century roots.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:


    Nice detail on Humza Useless here.

    We got up this morning intending to do a funny little piece about how Humza Yousaf’s attempt to fiddle an online poll on The National had spiralled into farce last night, with rival teams of bots spamming the poll with over 400,000 extra votes in 12 hours.
    But then something a bit more significant happened.


    https://wingsoverscotland.com/sunk-costs/

    Hmm. "We rang Companies House a few minutes ago and they told us that the notice COULD just mean that Ferguson Marine had failed to file its accounts on time (in which case Companies House would have initiated this move itself), or that Ferguson might have notified them that it intended to cease trading.

    In either case the First Gazette notice would be the result, and it wasn’t yet possible for CH to tell us which it was."
    The accounts are less than two months overdue; even though this company has a history of filing accounts late it doesn't seem likely that CH would have initiated it?
  • Football: a quartet of lays: https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/02/everything-but-serie-23-feb-2023.html

    The one I like the most is 1.37 laid on Bayern Munich winning at home versus Union Berlin, with whom they're tied on points.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    Net personal ratings:
    Kate Forbes: +3
    Ash Regan: -4
    Humza Yousaf: -19

    A YouGov poll delivers more bad news for Humza and this in the light of the media savaging his opponents. I expect both Kate and particularly Ash’s figures to improve as they become better known.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839
    Driver said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:


    Nice detail on Humza Useless here.

    We got up this morning intending to do a funny little piece about how Humza Yousaf’s attempt to fiddle an online poll on The National had spiralled into farce last night, with rival teams of bots spamming the poll with over 400,000 extra votes in 12 hours.
    But then something a bit more significant happened.


    https://wingsoverscotland.com/sunk-costs/

    Hmm. "We rang Companies House a few minutes ago and they told us that the notice COULD just mean that Ferguson Marine had failed to file its accounts on time (in which case Companies House would have initiated this move itself), or that Ferguson might have notified them that it intended to cease trading.

    In either case the First Gazette notice would be the result, and it wasn’t yet possible for CH to tell us which it was."
    The accounts are less than two months overdue; even though this company has a history of filing accounts late it doesn't seem likely that CH would have initiated it?
    There is actually a red warning notice on the website but I don't know if they are necessarily linked - IANAE.

    https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC638457
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    geoffw said:

    Selebian said:

    geoffw said:

    Five graphs that show Humza’s health service disaster
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-humza-has-ruined-the-health-service-in-five-graphs/
    Not easy to whitewash.

    … …
    Compare and contrast the cheap shot 'statistics' work of the Spectator with the work of Burn-Murdoch et al at the FT.

    It may be that Sturgeon and Yousaf have been a disaster for Scotland, but a few hand-picked graphs don't show it.
    Please provide a link to Burn-Murdoch's analysis of Humza's record.
    I, too, would be interested in such an analysis.

    Here's a report on the NHS in England which shows a similar picture on three of the metrics (A&E wait times, waiting lists and cancer referrals) https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7281/

    Also a big increase in drugs deaths in England in a similar period (I don't know how comparable the definitions are) https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsrelatedtodrugpoisoninginenglandandwales/2021registrations

    These lead me to think these are UK problems (who knows, quite possible wider than UK problems) rather than due to specific mismanagement in Scotland.

    Four graphs that prove the Tory government post-15 has been a disaster? But then, we all knew that anyway :wink:


  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Carnyx said:

    Driver said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:


    Nice detail on Humza Useless here.

    We got up this morning intending to do a funny little piece about how Humza Yousaf’s attempt to fiddle an online poll on The National had spiralled into farce last night, with rival teams of bots spamming the poll with over 400,000 extra votes in 12 hours.
    But then something a bit more significant happened.


    https://wingsoverscotland.com/sunk-costs/

    Hmm. "We rang Companies House a few minutes ago and they told us that the notice COULD just mean that Ferguson Marine had failed to file its accounts on time (in which case Companies House would have initiated this move itself), or that Ferguson might have notified them that it intended to cease trading.

    In either case the First Gazette notice would be the result, and it wasn’t yet possible for CH to tell us which it was."
    The accounts are less than two months overdue; even though this company has a history of filing accounts late it doesn't seem likely that CH would have initiated it?
    There is actually a red warning notice on the website but I don't know if they are necessarily linked - IANAE.

    https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC638457
    Yeah, I looked at that. I think that's just automatic as soon as you go overdue at all. CH has to send a couple of warning letters for non-filing of accounts or confirmation statement before starting the strike-off process, I believe.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:


    Nice detail on Humza Useless here.

    We got up this morning intending to do a funny little piece about how Humza Yousaf’s attempt to fiddle an online poll on The National had spiralled into farce last night, with rival teams of bots spamming the poll with over 400,000 extra votes in 12 hours.
    But then something a bit more significant happened.


    https://wingsoverscotland.com/sunk-costs/

    Hmm. "We rang Companies House a few minutes ago and they told us that the notice COULD just mean that Ferguson Marine had failed to file its accounts on time (in which case Companies House would have initiated this move itself), or that Ferguson might have notified them that it intended to cease trading.

    In either case the First Gazette notice would be the result, and it wasn’t yet possible for CH to tell us which it was."
    A government owned company does not file its accounts and 15M backdoor loan.
  • Omnium said:

    Jeremy Corbyn and the left of the Labour Party must never be allowed near the Labour Party leadership ever, ever again.

    I hope GE19 has done enough to put them away for a generation at least, I've certainly gone back to my natural centre left politics.

    Its not though about Corbyn's leadership it's about how he got there, and stayed there.

    It's obviously really difficult to want democracy in a political party and then belly-ache over the result. So I completely understand how Corbyn was in place for a long while. What was Labour's big problem was that so many of the party's member were prepared to vote for him. It was their problem and still is their problem.

    Labour under Starmer seems a perfectly electable and sensible proposition until you lift the floorboards.

    And in my view the problem all stems from the dogged hanging on to 19th century roots.
    Labour members are no more representative of their voters than Conservative ones are.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited February 2023
    malcolmg said:

    Net personal ratings:
    Kate Forbes: +3
    Ash Regan: -4
    Humza Yousaf: -19

    A YouGov poll delivers more bad news for Humza and this in the light of the media savaging his opponents. I expect both Kate and particularly Ash’s figures to improve as they become better known.

    The Muslim Council of UK/Indian Council of Scotland clearly more influential than we thought!

    Edited out some nonsense: these are net ratings, not changes in ratings, d'oh
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962
    edited February 2023
    Selebian said:

    geoffw said:

    Selebian said:

    geoffw said:

    Five graphs that show Humza’s health service disaster
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-humza-has-ruined-the-health-service-in-five-graphs/
    Not easy to whitewash.

    … …
    Compare and contrast the cheap shot 'statistics' work of the Spectator with the work of Burn-Murdoch et al at the FT.

    It may be that Sturgeon and Yousaf have been a disaster for Scotland, but a few hand-picked graphs don't show it.
    Please provide a link to Burn-Murdoch's analysis of Humza's record.
    I, too, would be interested in such an analysis.

    Here's a report on the NHS in England which shows a similar picture on three of the metrics (A&E wait times, waiting lists and cancer referrals) https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7281/

    Also a big increase in drugs deaths in England in a similar period (I don't know how comparable the definitions are) https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsrelatedtodrugpoisoninginenglandandwales/2021registrations

    These lead me to think these are UK problems (who knows, quite possible wider than UK problems) rather than due to specific mismanagement in Scotland.

    Four graphs that prove the Tory government post-15 has been a disaster? But then, we all knew that anyway :wink:


    Recent UK(sic) health secretaries, a dizzying array of talent: Hunt, Javid, Hancock, Javid, Barclay, Coffey, Barclay again.
    Don't recall seeing their performance in the role cited as an impediment to further advancement, in fact isn't Barclay fancied as next leader of the bin fire party?

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    Leon said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    Like the way he describes her actions as a "mistake" as if joining an organisation that beheaded people and burnt them alive, and watching gay men being thrown to their deaths, was comparable to not paying a parking ticket. Some of the Hitler Youth should have had this chap on board.
    Otto English is a nasty, detestable c8nt
    Begum took active part in the enslavement of people. Real, actual slavery.

    Also - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Amery
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Needs to learn from Yousaf and keep a scooter around for fast escapes from journalists!
  • Leon said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    Like the way he describes her actions as a "mistake" as if joining an organisation that beheaded people and burnt them alive, and watching gay men being thrown to their deaths, was comparable to not paying a parking ticket. Some of the Hitler Youth should have had this chap on board.
    Otto English is a nasty, detestable c8nt
    Begum took active part in the enslavement of people. Real, actual slavery.

    Also - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Amery
    At least the government of the day had the balls to try Amery and Joyce, dubiety in the trial of Joyce notwithstanding.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    edited February 2023
    I feel for Therese Coffey. She tried to make a sensible conversational point about eating seasonal veg, but she ill-advisedly plumped for the turnip. Since Blackadder the 2nd, the iconic vegetable of poverty and squalor.

    Now her saying we should eat turnips instead of tomatoes will become one of those moments remembered in political folklore, like “there is no money left”.

    Probably the most important political moment today, more so than anything in Keir’s 5 point plan.

    (I love turnips by the way).
  • Selebian said:

    Needs to learn from Yousaf and keep a scooter around for fast escapes from journalists!
    The hustings will be fascinating to watch
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Omnium said:

    Jeremy Corbyn and the left of the Labour Party must never be allowed near the Labour Party leadership ever, ever again.

    I hope GE19 has done enough to put them away for a generation at least, I've certainly gone back to my natural centre left politics.

    Its not though about Corbyn's leadership it's about how he got there, and stayed there.

    It's obviously really difficult to want democracy in a political party and then belly-ache over the result. So I completely understand how Corbyn was in place for a long while. What was Labour's big problem was that so many of the party's member were prepared to vote for him. It was their problem and still is their problem.

    Labour under Starmer seems a perfectly electable and sensible proposition until you lift the floorboards.

    And in my view the problem all stems from the dogged hanging on to 19th century roots.
    I recall similar arguments during the Blair era. No sooner than Blair wins the election he will be defenestrated by Degsy or the ghost of Eric Heffer. It never happened.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited February 2023
    Proof that even a bunch of total morons, can occasionally do something useful or funny.

    Four people have been arrested after campaign group Led By Donkeys painted a Ukrainian flag on the road outside the Russian Embassy in London.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/23/giant-ukrainian-flag-painted-protesters-outside-russian-embassy/

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,304

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Waste of a missile we could send to Ukraine.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Keir Starmer: Man on a Mission. More than that even - Man on 5 Missions.

    SKS: "We have five missions to give us focus."
    Not nonsensical when you consider that's why governments have cabinet ministers and departments.

    I'm a not a Starmer fan, probably won't even vote Labour, but recent efforts to mock him aren't very effective.

    Wholly nonsensical. A mission should be clear, concise and easy to understand. So that people can...focus on it.

    Five missions is laughably victim of non-engagement with outside the bubblers.

    Have you listend to Amol's dismantling of him this morning yet?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Selebian said:

    Sandpit said:

    Proof that sometimes a bunch of total morons, can occasionally do something useful or funny.

    Four people have been arrested after campaign group Led By Donkeys painted a Ukrainian flag on the road outside the Russian Embassy in London.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/23/giant-ukrainian-flag-painted-protesters-outside-russian-embassy/

    I reckon they'll get off with a verbal warning - even the cops seem to have painted their vans in solidarity :wink:
    I can't see that it qualifies as criminal damage if they've used water-soluble paint because it will come off as soon as it rains. Obstructing the highway? Risible they're arrested for that when the green loons a few months ago were actively encouraged by the police.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268

    Leon said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    Like the way he describes her actions as a "mistake" as if joining an organisation that beheaded people and burnt them alive, and watching gay men being thrown to their deaths, was comparable to not paying a parking ticket. Some of the Hitler Youth should have had this chap on board.
    Otto English is a nasty, detestable c8nt
    Begum took active part in the enslavement of people. Real, actual slavery.

    Also - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Amery
    At least the government of the day had the balls to try Amery and Joyce, dubiety in the trial of Joyce notwithstanding.
    A different age. In 1945, no lawyer would have tried to get the treason laws thrown out as archaic or immoral or whatever. Begum would have got John Amery’s fate.

    The practise of law has been steadily “improved” since then, under various governments. Until we have, apparently, no way to prosecute.

    What I find interesting is the horror with which my proposals for a treason law get, when I put them in front of some lawyers. Why is that?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    FF43 said:

    The interesting one is Jeremy Corbyn. Only slightly more unfavourable than Boris Johnson.

    A rerun of 2019 today would be an interesting contest.
    One of the weaker posts in your portfolio, Nick
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    TimS said:

    I feel for Therese Coffey. She tried to make a sensible conversational point about eating seasonal veg, but she ill-advisedly plumped for the turnip. Since Blackadder the 2nd, the iconic vegetable of poverty and squalor.

    Now her saying we should eat turnips instead of tomatoes will become one of those moments remembered in political folklore, like “there is no money left”.

    Probably the most important political moment today, more so than anything in Keir’s 5 point plan.

    (I love turnips by the way).

    I go in phases with them. Ok with lots of butter and seasoning. Exceptionally good for you though.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    We had capital punishment on the statute at the time.

    Were Amery or Joyce rendered stateless?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,304

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
  • Cringey McCringeface.

    Gone hardline indy Scotland out of NATO now.


  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited February 2023

    FF43 said:

    The interesting one is Jeremy Corbyn. Only slightly more unfavourable than Boris Johnson.

    A rerun of 2019 today would be an interesting contest.
    It would be interesting but not one I have any enthusiasm for.

    I will put in a word for much maligned Sunak. He might be a bit crap but at least he meets the basic fitness for office test, unlike his two predecessors. And also unlike Corbyn I should add
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    She has publicly stated, in several TV programs that she took part in war crimes. Specifically the process of enslavement of Yazidi women. The avowed (by ISIS) intention of this process was to wipe out the Yazidi people by destroying the next generation.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    edited February 2023

    Cringey McCringeface.

    Gone hardline indy Scotland out of NATO now.


    That is utterly pathetic.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    We had capital punishment on the statute at the time.

    Were Amery or Joyce rendered stateless?
    Joyce sure wasn't. Trouble was, it was the wrong state. The USA. Though he got done for fibbing when applying for a UK passport. To quote Wiki:

    The historian A. J. P. Taylor remarked in his book English History 1914–1945 that "Technically, Joyce was hanged for making a false statement when applying for a passport, the usual penalty for which is a small fine."[38]
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Selebian said:

    Sandpit said:

    Proof that sometimes a bunch of total morons, can occasionally do something useful or funny.

    Four people have been arrested after campaign group Led By Donkeys painted a Ukrainian flag on the road outside the Russian Embassy in London.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/23/giant-ukrainian-flag-painted-protesters-outside-russian-embassy/

    I reckon they'll get off with a verbal warning - even the cops seem to have painted their vans in solidarity :wink:
    That got a LOL from Mrs Sandpit - who’s understandably a little sensitive about events at the moment.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    I like her <3
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Sandpit said:

    Matt Pritchett, you are a total genius, never stop doing this:
    https://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/1628449799786622977

    He's on top form at the moment, his cartoon on the Roald Dahl story the other day was total genius.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434
    franklyn said:

    For any PBer who is in Central London next Thursday (2nd March) I am doing a book signing for my new book 'The Man Who Turned Blue' at the Chris Beetles gallery, Ryder Street London SW1Y 6QB from 5.45 to 7.30.
    There is an exhibition there of a wonderful artist called Melissa Scott-Miller and a glass of fizz, all free.
    Do pop in if you are around as it would be good to put faces to usernames!



    I am not, but hope all goes well.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,304

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    No, not when, at the age of 21, she expressed ZERO regret for her actions, for enslaving the Yazidi, for abetting genocide, for assisting in the Nazi style ravaging of entire nations

    Drone her in situ, or let the Kurds/Yazidi try her and - if and when convicted - execute her. If it salves your pathetic bleating look-at-me liberal conscience we can also pay for the noose
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    edited February 2023
    malcolmg said:

    Net personal ratings:
    Kate Forbes: +3
    Ash Regan: -4
    Humza Yousaf: -19

    A YouGov poll delivers more bad news for Humza and this in the light of the media savaging his opponents. I expect both Kate and particularly Ash’s figures to improve as they become better known.

    It's very possible that Ash could turbocharge (or indeed self-destruct) her campaign as soon as she does a proper interview. She has kept her counsel so far, deliberately so according to the PB Scexperts.

    The dark horse with flame hair.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    Omnium said:

    Jeremy Corbyn and the left of the Labour Party must never be allowed near the Labour Party leadership ever, ever again.

    I hope GE19 has done enough to put them away for a generation at least, I've certainly gone back to my natural centre left politics.

    Its not though about Corbyn's leadership it's about how he got there, and stayed there.

    It's obviously really difficult to want democracy in a political party and then belly-ache over the result. So I completely understand how Corbyn was in place for a long while. What was Labour's big problem was that so many of the party's member were prepared to vote for him. It was their problem and still is their problem.

    Labour under Starmer seems a perfectly electable and sensible proposition until you lift the floorboards.

    And in my view the problem all stems from the dogged hanging on to 19th century roots.
    12.9m voted for him.

    Are you trying to say SKS would have done better?

    No chance I canvassed those doorsteps saw the massive enthusiasm.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Cringey McCringeface.

    Gone hardline indy Scotland out of NATO now.


    That is utterly pathetic.
    It’s way out of context, that’s why.

    The quote comes from a Ukranian journalist turned soldier, one of a series of quotes that starts here.
    https://twitter.com/NATO/status/1628687934000885760
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
  • Selebian said:

    geoffw said:

    Five graphs that show Humza’s health service disaster
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-humza-has-ruined-the-health-service-in-five-graphs/
    Not easy to whitewash.

    But easy to cherrypick statistics to show what you want, particularly if there's a handy pandemic providing an inflection point for most.

    As I've posted before, for a different set, you need to compare to England, other UK, other comparable countries. The drugs one is interesting, but also needs comparison with other places and perhaps with alcohol/other related deaths - i.e. is minimum alcohol pricing shifting people onto abusing other substances (I don't know whether this is the case, but it would give a bigger picture).

    Compare and contrast the cheap shot 'statistics' work of the Spectator with the work of Burn-Murdoch et al at the FT.

    It may be that Sturgeon and Yousaf have been a disaster for Scotland, but a few hand-picked graphs don't show it.
    Nah, youve got it all backwards. Decide on your argument first, preferably in tune with your readership, or at least something the gullible can be fed. Then design your stats and graphs to back up the argument. Not just easier as you say, but also makes more cash and is more powerful in influencing policy.....
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    And how do you propose she gets a fair trial?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,304

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    Why shouldn’t her Syrian/Yazidi victims have Justice served on her, in their own countries, where she enslaved them and abetted in their massacre?

    You are pathetic
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    She has publicly stated, in several TV programs that she took part in war crimes. Specifically the process of enslavement of Yazidi women. The avowed (by ISIS) intention of this process was to wipe out the Yazidi people by destroying the next generation.
    Did she have legal representatives at that point? She can always say that she was lying
    I think she is guilty of lots of things but was also groomed. Life isn't black and white. To use the Nazi example a 20 year old German committing atrocities in 1945 had been under the Nazis for 12 years. Twelve long years of indoctrination. Not an excuse, but context.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839
    edited February 2023

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Technically, weren't they too old for the HJ, and had moved on to the Waffen-SS by then? But a whole age cohort or two of indoctrinated 18 and 19 years old teenagers must have been ***ing terrifying.

    Edit: And calling it the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend was a bit of a giveaway, admittedly.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Leon said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    Like the way he describes her actions as a "mistake" as if joining an organisation that beheaded people and burnt them alive, and watching gay men being thrown to their deaths, was comparable to not paying a parking ticket. Some of the Hitler Youth should have had this chap on board.
    Otto English is a nasty, detestable c8nt
    Begum took active part in the enslavement of people. Real, actual slavery.

    Also - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Amery
    At least the government of the day had the balls to try Amery and Joyce, dubiety in the trial of Joyce notwithstanding.
    On the other hand, Simon Mann tried to carry out an actual military coup in another country, but because it was a posh-bloke-jolly-wheeze he got away with a few years (thanks to some intense lobbying by Tory members) and now lives in comfort in the New Forest.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    edited February 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    No, not when, at the age of 21, she expressed ZERO regret for her actions, for enslaving the Yazidi, for abetting genocide, for assisting in the Nazi style ravaging of entire nations

    Drone her in situ, or let the Kurds/Yazidi try her and - if and when convicted - execute her. If it salves your pathetic bleating look-at-me liberal conscience we can also pay for the noose
    Leon – the piss artist on the internet, kangaroo court administrator, judge and jury, says: "Off with her head."

    Justice is so much simpler these days.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    DougSeal said:

    I’m as sad as everyone about John Motson’s passing but lead story on the BBC website…? Really?

    I agree, they tend to go a bit over the top when sad things like this happen.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    We can only deny her citizenship if she has a right to another. It think Bangladesh in this case.

    It does seem moral or liberal to land the problem on them, who have no connection.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    I agree - the problem is that the law has apparently been “improved” to the point where prosecution isn’t possible.

    Mind you, my grandfather caused a moment, according to his diary. He was a bit of a spotter type - read everything he could find on the war. So when someone mentioned they shot out of hand people in black uniforms (SS), he pointed out they were probably tank crew.
  • Sandpit said:

    Cringey McCringeface.

    Gone hardline indy Scotland out of NATO now.


    That is utterly pathetic.
    It’s way out of context, that’s why.

    The quote comes from a Ukranian journalist turned soldier, one of a series of quotes that starts here.
    https://twitter.com/NATO/status/1628687934000885760
    What, the context of it being tweeted by the twitter account of NATO? Did they let some breathless hormone addled adolescent have the run of it?

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Andy_JS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I’m as sad as everyone about John Motson’s passing but lead story on the BBC website…? Really?

    I agree, they tend to go a bit over the top when sad things like this happen.
    Wha can forget the Duke of Edinburgh, when they stopped the dance music on Radio 1Xtra in favour of a live stream of mawkishness that was duplicated on every other BBC radio station?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268

    Sandpit said:

    Cringey McCringeface.

    Gone hardline indy Scotland out of NATO now.


    That is utterly pathetic.
    It’s way out of context, that’s why.

    The quote comes from a Ukranian journalist turned soldier, one of a series of quotes that starts here.
    https://twitter.com/NATO/status/1628687934000885760
    What, the context of it being tweeted by the twitter account of NATO? Did they let some breathless hormone addled adolescent have the run of it?

    If you actually read it in context…
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,304

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    No, not when, at the age of 21, she expressed ZERO regret for her actions, for enslaving the Yazidi, for abetting genocide, for assisting in the Nazi style ravaging of entire nations

    Drone her in situ, or let the Kurds/Yazidi try her and - if and when convicted - execute her. If it salves your pathetic bleating look-at-me liberal conscience we can also pay for the noose
    Leon – the piss artist on the internet, kangaroo court administrator, judge and jury, says: "Off with her head."

    Justice is so much simpler these days.
    This one is actually quite simple. If a British citizen commits a vile rape or murder in a foreign country, we don’t clamour to “bring them home”. We let them face Justice from those they were unjust against, where they did their evil crimes. So it is, here

    All else is performative liberal wank from the likes of you
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    I agree - the problem is that the law has apparently been “improved” to the point where prosecution isn’t possible.

    Mind you, my grandfather caused a moment, according to his diary. He was a bit of a spotter type - read everything he could find on the war. So when someone mentioned they shot out of hand people in black uniforms (SS), he pointed out they were probably tank crew.
    Jus\t reading a book by a Chieftain loader in the Royal Tank Regiment. Very proud of their black uniforms for formal dress. 1980s garrison in Germany in an old SS barracks. Discovered the locals really, really did not care for their walking-out dress of an evening.
  • TimS said:

    I feel for Therese Coffey. She tried to make a sensible conversational point about eating seasonal veg, but she ill-advisedly plumped for the turnip. Since Blackadder the 2nd, the iconic vegetable of poverty and squalor.

    Now her saying we should eat turnips instead of tomatoes will become one of those moments remembered in political folklore, like “there is no money left”.

    Probably the most important political moment today, more so than anything in Keir’s 5 point plan.

    (I love turnips by the way).

    Truss and Coffey - each as bad as each other
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Driver said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    And how do you propose she gets a fair trial?
    I have no idea. I dare say she has more chance of a fair trial here than there.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    Why shouldn’t her Syrian/Yazidi victims have Justice served on her, in their own countries, where she enslaved them and abetted in their massacre?

    You are pathetic
    Delete your account
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Driver said:

    FF43 said:

    The interesting one is Jeremy Corbyn. Only slightly more unfavourable than Boris Johnson.

    Which, given Corbyn never held office, is incredibly bad for him.
    At least no one inside the Labour Party is demanding the return of Corbyn. However there is unfortunately a reasonable prospect of Johnson's regeneration.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Andy_JS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I’m as sad as everyone about John Motson’s passing but lead story on the BBC website…? Really?

    I agree, they tend to go a bit over the top when sad things like this happen.
    He was 77, and retired half a decade ago.

    If he’d been 37, and working last Saturday, then perhaps the coverage would be more justified.

    He’s still commentary Royalty though, up there with Brian Johnston and Murray Walker.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,839

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    I agree - the problem is that the law has apparently been “improved” to the point where prosecution isn’t possible.

    Mind you, my grandfather caused a moment, according to his diary. He was a bit of a spotter type - read everything he could find on the war. So when someone mentioned they shot out of hand people in black uniforms (SS), he pointed out they were probably tank crew.
    The point presumably being that they were Wehrmacht tank crew too, not just Waffen-SS.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,304

    Driver said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    And how do you propose she gets a fair trial?
    I have no idea. I dare say she has more chance of a fair trial here than there.
    And there it is. These primitive middle eastern Yazidi types (that she tried to enslave and terrorize) are too inferior to give her a fair trial. It’s a perverse form of racism
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Driver said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    And how do you propose she gets a fair trial?
    I have no idea. I dare say she has more chance of a fair trial here than there.
    and when you get her back and there is nothing we can actually charge her with what then? Content to let her wander round free being a hero figure and grooming more isis types?

    I have asked before but no answer from anyone your side of the argument.....what could we charge her with?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,304

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    Why shouldn’t her Syrian/Yazidi victims have Justice served on her, in their own countries, where she enslaved them and abetted in their massacre?

    You are pathetic
    Delete your account
    You’re a racist
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,268
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    I agree - the problem is that the law has apparently been “improved” to the point where prosecution isn’t possible.

    Mind you, my grandfather caused a moment, according to his diary. He was a bit of a spotter type - read everything he could find on the war. So when someone mentioned they shot out of hand people in black uniforms (SS), he pointed out they were probably tank crew.
    The point presumably being that they were Wehrmacht tank crew too, not just Waffen-SS.
    Yup. The forgotten bit of WWII and WWI were the… conventions the soldiers added on as their version of the laws of war.

    “Too late, chum”

    Etc
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,962
    edited February 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Commemorative you can’t escape the legacy of Arthur Donaldson tweet. Quite shocking that the rancid old **** was allowed to return to the Commons as if nothing had happened. Mind you, he’d probably be the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party in its current iteration.



    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1628709274976153601?s=61&t=t6v9Ta4h-SMABSvwj2rQFg

    John Amery was white, male, upper class. William Joyce was white, male, middle class.

    That did not save them from being executed, in the aftermath of WWII, for acting similarly to Shamima Begum.
    Similar yes, but I think objectively, Begum was groomed. She was under 16 when she left to join ISIS, and by her admission, did not believe what she thought was Western propaganda about ISIS.

    I'd rather see her tried for crimes that she has committed, but I don't think thats easy. How much evidence is there? Where should a trial be? Its not as if we have a Nuremberg style trial system going for ISIS.
    Just drone her
    Stop being an attention-seeking twat just for the sake of it
    We drone our Islamist enemies all the time. She is one of them. What’s the difference with her?

    The alternative - which I prefer - is that we pay the Syrians or Iraqis or Yazidis - her victims, remember - to try her. I imagine they will execute her. Being an ISIS bride is a capital offence. Oh well
    You don't think that she was 15 years of age at the inception of her crimes might count for just a teensy weensy little something?
    Age and “grooming” are mitigations for an offence. Not a shield against being prosecuted.

    My grandfather fought in WWI

    In his Glasgow pub, they would have lock-ins were the old soldiers would drink with the men on leave in WWII. Think decompression from the horror. Quite a few stories about encountering Hitler Youth, apparently.
    Yes, she should be prosecuted. In the UK.
    I agree - the problem is that the law has apparently been “improved” to the point where prosecution isn’t possible.

    Mind you, my grandfather caused a moment, according to his diary. He was a bit of a spotter type - read everything he could find on the war. So when someone mentioned they shot out of hand people in black uniforms (SS), he pointed out they were probably tank crew.
    Jus\t reading a book by a Chieftain loader in the Royal Tank Regiment. Very proud of their black uniforms for formal dress. 1980s garrison in Germany in an old SS barracks. Discovered the locals really, really did not care for their walking-out dress of an evening.
    What I don't understand is though a black uniform is entirely understandable in the context of a mucky old thing like a tank, why the Nazis insisted on a version of the Totenkopf for Wermacht crews.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I’m as sad as everyone about John Motson’s passing but lead story on the BBC website…? Really?

    I agree, they tend to go a bit over the top when sad things like this happen.
    He was 77, and retired half a decade ago.

    If he’d been 37, and working last Saturday, then perhaps the coverage would be more justified.

    He’s still commentary Royalty though, up there with Brian Johnston and Murray Walker.
    Rishi Sunak not wearing a seatbelt was headline news for 2 days.

    John Motson was part of a football fans life for 50 years.

    He deserves to make deadline news
This discussion has been closed.