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LDs very close to taking Wokingham in new constituency poll – politicalbetting.com

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  • Having a nice afternoon. Interesting new client giving me more and more to do on a project which gets broader by the week. Outgoing client finally paying my (very) overdue invoices. And have completed an IRS form because my YouTube channel is now monetised and I don't want Murica taking 30% of my revenues generated there.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    edited February 2023
    DJ41a said:

    DJ41a said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour and the LDs could banish the Conservatives to history with an electoral agreement.

    No they couldn't, some Orange Book LDs would go Tory and some Corbynites in Labour would go Green or start their own party if a formal Labour and LD pact. UKIP got 12% in 2015 when the Tories did a deal with the LDs and leftwing LDs went Labour
    Who mentioned 'formal'?
    Surely you did. How can an electoral agreement not be formal? How would it be decided which party should run in which constituencies?
    Hmmm... thinks. An informal agreement?
    How could that possibly work? A party agrees with another party not to field candidates in constituencies X, Y, Z, etc., and then if anyone asks did you agree that with the other party that you're telling your supporters to vote for in those constituencies, they say oh no, there must have been a series of local arrangements, we don't know nuffink here in London?
    Not 'not field candidates' but 'not put much effort in'. See Tiverton & Honiton, Wakefield, North Shropshire for example.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited February 2023
    New Wales VI (Westminster):

    WLab 49% (-2)
    WCon 20% (+2)
    PC 14% (+1)
    Ref 9% (+1)
    WLD 5% (+1)
    oth 4% (-2)

    YouGov; 3-7 February
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    On topic, not sure Labour voters who think they’re on track for a Labour government are going to “lend” their votes to the LDs. Much easier to do if Labour are clearly heading for opposition - which won’t be the case this time. Who doesn’t like to back a winner? “Only LibDems (who?) can stop the Tories” may come across as counterintuitive, and certainly from a national point of view.

    Doesn't the 1997 experience point the other way? If lefties really want to kick the Tories, they use their votes efficiently. If not they scatter their votes to please themselves.
    I’m not sure we’re quite at 1997 yet.

    The Tories aren’t yet in as big a mess as the post-black Monday crew got themselves into - although it’s certainly possible they get there and then some.

    Starmer is no Blair - who was viewed with genuine enthusiasm as a “breath of fresh air”. Starmer’s main attraction is “he’s not the other one”. The absence of a negative isn’t as motivating as the presence of a positive.

    I think we’re heading for Labour clearly largest party, possibly shy of a majority. If SLAB can focus on the NHS/economy then they can attack both SNP and the Tories - and continue their silence on the GRR bill, then they might get enough seats to gain a majority.

    How the Tories do will depend on how they behave between now and then. “Steady as she goes” should see them thumped but surviving. Leadership coups will get them the little they will deserve.
    My belief is diametrically opposed here - My objection to Sunak/Hunt has always been a policy one, not personality. It is interesting and heartening that groups like the Conservative Growth Group have sprung up to force the Chancellor and PM to challenge the Treasury and address the need to facilitate growth via the tax system. However, for Sunak/Hunt, even if they turn around with the best budget and set of active, balls-out growth promoting, tax-simplifying, power station-building policies, it's too late for them to get any positive credit for it. They're not salvageable.

    It should be a civilised process, no protracted election, and Sunak should be offered a prominent cabinet Role (Foreign Sec.), to avoid rancour and signal a broad cabinet.
    Maybe Sunak could be put in charge of the state unicorns?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Leon said:

    “The US Air Force general overseeing North American airspace said Sunday he was not ruling out aliens after a string of shoot-downs of unidentified objects.

    Asked whether he had ruled out an extraterrestrial origin for three floating objects shot down by warplanes in as many days, Gen. Glen VanHerck said: “I’ll let the intel community and the counterintelligence community figure that out.

    “I haven’t ruled out anything.””

    https://nypost.com/2023/02/13/top-general-not-ruling-out-aliens-after-3-ufos-shot-down/

    Indeed. I have to say that your usual refrain that this should be bigger news than it is is more than usually apt, at the moment.

    Whatever this is, it's huge news either way. The world's leading military and technological superpower just has no idea what's going on. Even if it's just China or some private individual, that also would be huge news, in terms of the global power hierarchy.
    Or [tinfoil hat on], they have access to this technology but weren’t aware others did.

    As I note upthread the significant thing here is, barring ET, there appears to be man-made technology out there that far exceeds what the man on the street thought possible.

    Like balloons ? 😏
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785

    I am fascinated by the UFO news. I have to admit I’m not quite convinced that aliens are involved in making octagonal objects with bits of string attached, but the query around propulsion of these objects is absolutely fascinating. It suggests there is military tech out there which is far beyond what we were aware of in terms of advancement, even allowing for a bit of “state secrecy” wriggle room.

    On the other hand, maybe aliens travelling the vast, unimaginable distances between solar systems, landed and thought "Let's play with the balloons! Whee! Haven't been able to for ages!".
  • ohnotnow said:

    I am fascinated by the UFO news. I have to admit I’m not quite convinced that aliens are involved in making octagonal objects with bits of string attached, but the query around propulsion of these objects is absolutely fascinating. It suggests there is military tech out there which is far beyond what we were aware of in terms of advancement, even allowing for a bit of “state secrecy” wriggle room.

    On the other hand, maybe aliens travelling the vast, unimaginable distances between solar systems, landed and thought "Let's play with the balloons! Whee! Haven't been able to for ages!".
    "Teasers are usually rich kids with nothing to do. They cruise around looking for planets that haven't made interstellar contact yet and buzz them, meaning that they find some isolated spot with very few people around, then land right by some poor unsuspecting soul whom no one's going to believe and then strut up and down in front of him wearing silly antennas on their head and making beep beep noises."
    https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Teaser
  • New Wales VI (Senedd)

    WLab 39% (+1)
    PC 20% (-3)
    WCon 18% (+2)
    Ref 6% (+2)
    WLD 5% (+1)
    oth 12% (-3)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    DJ41a said:

    Leon said:

    “The US Air Force general overseeing North American airspace said Sunday he was not ruling out aliens after a string of shoot-downs of unidentified objects.

    Asked whether he had ruled out an extraterrestrial origin for three floating objects shot down by warplanes in as many days, Gen. Glen VanHerck said: “I’ll let the intel community and the counterintelligence community figure that out.

    “I haven’t ruled out anything.””

    https://nypost.com/2023/02/13/top-general-not-ruling-out-aliens-after-3-ufos-shot-down/

    Indeed. I have to say that your usual refrain that this should be bigger news than it is is more than usually apt, at the moment.

    Whatever this is, it's huge news either way. The world's leading military and technological superpower just has no idea what's going on.
    See also Montana. Radar anomaly. Non-event. Yes we closed airspace, but ... as you were. Weeellll, if that's so then they sound very twitchy.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11742541/Montana-congressman-says-object-state-NORAD-dismissed-anomaly.html
    It could, still, just be drones and balloons plus a lot of neo-Cold War paranoia. I am not convinced we have any evidence for highly advanced technology let alone “alien” technology

    However we have plentiful evidence that the American (and Canadian) politico-military establishments are properly puzzled. If not rattled

    The UFO shit could be a story to cover up national humiliation: that the USA has been intruded/surveilled by China for many years and the Americans were too slow or blinkered to realise

    Or it’s a mix of all this. Plus aliens
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,359

    The comments on the Herald report of Lord Ashcroft’s poll….

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23317776.poll-big-lead-no-gulf-public-snp-priorities/

    They don't seem very happy.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    I’m not sure Angela thought this through:

    Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, has denied that her decision to expense hundreds of pounds on Apple electronics is the same as Whitehall’s use of government procurement cards on luxury items.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/13/conservatives-tories-rishi-sunak-expenses-spending-angela-rayner-labour-uk-politics-live

    It bloody is the same, and the Labour attack campaign on this is utterly stupid. We have vast millions in fraudulent contracts paid out to Tory friends and donors, yes they decide to go on the attack because government ministers on government business stay in suitable hotels.

    In 2025 when DPM Rayner is off to Paris for a summit she won't be staying in a sodding Ibis will she?
    Indeed.

    This is a stupid line to go down.

    Almost as stupid as the time Brown tried to brief against the head of the U.K. military. Because he was taking foreign dignitaries (including chiefs of other militaries) to Aske. A pizza and pasta chain on about the Pizza Express level.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,785

    ohnotnow said:

    I am fascinated by the UFO news. I have to admit I’m not quite convinced that aliens are involved in making octagonal objects with bits of string attached, but the query around propulsion of these objects is absolutely fascinating. It suggests there is military tech out there which is far beyond what we were aware of in terms of advancement, even allowing for a bit of “state secrecy” wriggle room.

    On the other hand, maybe aliens travelling the vast, unimaginable distances between solar systems, landed and thought "Let's play with the balloons! Whee! Haven't been able to for ages!".
    "Teasers are usually rich kids with nothing to do. They cruise around looking for planets that haven't made interstellar contact yet and buzz them, meaning that they find some isolated spot with very few people around, then land right by some poor unsuspecting soul whom no one's going to believe and then strut up and down in front of him wearing silly antennas on their head and making beep beep noises."
    https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Teaser
    Hah - I'd forgotten that section!
  • Re the Owen Jones article:

    "In recent years, media outlets and politicians have treated the likes of Anderson as emblematic of working-class voters: a category they often see as, to be blunt, a white man in his 50s or 60s with a Midlands accent and reactionary opinions. Rishi Sunak, who enjoys a family fortune twice that of the king, presumably believes that Anderson represents a direct hotline to working-class England."

    that should read "some" media outlets and "some" politicians - both have a large range - compare the Daily Mail with The Guardian for example.

    Also when an article attributes a view to someone with the words "Rishi Sunak ... presumably believes" then we are in the world of make believe. I don't think anyone, including Anderson, believes the straw man he sets up.

    There are ranges of views across all types of people - the voters who voted Conservative last time were not all from the same social sphere.


  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497

    I’m not sure Angela thought this through:

    Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, has denied that her decision to expense hundreds of pounds on Apple electronics is the same as Whitehall’s use of government procurement cards on luxury items.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/13/conservatives-tories-rishi-sunak-expenses-spending-angela-rayner-labour-uk-politics-live

    Labour's answer to Sharon Stone was notably awful this morning on R4 Today.

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited February 2023
    Westminster seat prediction (new boundaries):

    WLab 27 seats (+7)
    PC 3 seats (+1)
    WCon 2 seats (-8)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,434

    On topic, not sure Labour voters who think they’re on track for a Labour government are going to “lend” their votes to the LDs. Much easier to do if Labour are clearly heading for opposition - which won’t be the case this time. Who doesn’t like to back a winner? “Only LibDems (who?) can stop the Tories” may come across as counterintuitive, and certainly from a national point of view.

    Doesn't the 1997 experience point the other way? If lefties really want to kick the Tories, they use their votes efficiently. If not they scatter their votes to please themselves.
    I’m not sure we’re quite at 1997 yet.

    The Tories aren’t yet in as big a mess as the post-black Monday crew got themselves into - although it’s certainly possible they get there and then some.

    Starmer is no Blair - who was viewed with genuine enthusiasm as a “breath of fresh air”. Starmer’s main attraction is “he’s not the other one”. The absence of a negative isn’t as motivating as the presence of a positive.

    I think we’re heading for Labour clearly largest party, possibly shy of a majority. If SLAB can focus on the NHS/economy then they can attack both SNP and the Tories - and continue their silence on the GRR bill, then they might get enough seats to gain a majority.

    How the Tories do will depend on how they behave between now and then. “Steady as she goes” should see them thumped but surviving. Leadership coups will get them the little they will deserve.
    My belief is diametrically opposed here - My objection to Sunak/Hunt has always been a policy one, not personality. It is interesting and heartening that groups like the Conservative Growth Group have sprung up to force the Chancellor and PM to challenge the Treasury and address the need to facilitate growth via the tax system. However, for Sunak/Hunt, even if they turn around with the best budget and set of active, balls-out growth promoting, tax-simplifying, power station-building policies, it's too late for them to get any positive credit for it. They're not salvageable.

    It should be a civilised process, no protracted election, and Sunak should be offered a prominent cabinet Role (Foreign Sec.), to avoid rancour and signal a broad cabinet.
    Maybe Sunak could be put in charge of the state unicorns?
    The continual photography set-up to make him look taller than the unicorns would I fear be cost-prohibitive.
  • BREAKING:

    Moldovan president Maia Sandu has held a speech to nation, warning that Russia is planning a coup d'état in Moldova, complete with attacks on government buildings and hostage-taking by men with military training working under the guise of “opposition protesters.”


    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1625110656419614721

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    DJ41a said:

    Leon said:

    “The US Air Force general overseeing North American airspace said Sunday he was not ruling out aliens after a string of shoot-downs of unidentified objects.

    Asked whether he had ruled out an extraterrestrial origin for three floating objects shot down by warplanes in as many days, Gen. Glen VanHerck said: “I’ll let the intel community and the counterintelligence community figure that out.

    “I haven’t ruled out anything.””

    https://nypost.com/2023/02/13/top-general-not-ruling-out-aliens-after-3-ufos-shot-down/

    Indeed. I have to say that your usual refrain that this should be bigger news than it is is more than usually apt, at the moment.

    Whatever this is, it's huge news either way. The world's leading military and technological superpower just has no idea what's going on.
    See also Montana. Radar anomaly. Non-event. Yes we closed airspace, but ... as you were. Weeellll, if that's so then they sound very twitchy.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11742541/Montana-congressman-says-object-state-NORAD-dismissed-anomaly.html
    It could, still, just be drones and balloons plus a lot of neo-Cold War paranoia. I am not convinced we have any evidence for highly advanced technology let alone “alien” technology

    However we have plentiful evidence that the American (and Canadian) politico-military establishments are properly puzzled. If not rattled

    The UFO shit could be a story to cover up national humiliation: that the USA has been intruded/surveilled by China for many years and the Americans were too slow or blinkered to realise

    Or it’s a mix of all this. Plus aliens
    It smacks a bit of the Gatwick drone fiasco. Were there ever actually any drones there?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited February 2023
    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.

    And the startups quoted in the article I linked are neither huge nor yet highly profitable.
  • algarkirk said:

    I’m not sure Angela thought this through:

    Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, has denied that her decision to expense hundreds of pounds on Apple electronics is the same as Whitehall’s use of government procurement cards on luxury items.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/13/conservatives-tories-rishi-sunak-expenses-spending-angela-rayner-labour-uk-politics-live

    Labour's answer to Sharon Stone was notably awful this morning on R4 Today.

    She was horrifically poor. Is that really, really the best Labour can do? Really?
  • Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    “The US Air Force general overseeing North American airspace said Sunday he was not ruling out aliens after a string of shoot-downs of unidentified objects.

    Asked whether he had ruled out an extraterrestrial origin for three floating objects shot down by warplanes in as many days, Gen. Glen VanHerck said: “I’ll let the intel community and the counterintelligence community figure that out.

    “I haven’t ruled out anything.””

    https://nypost.com/2023/02/13/top-general-not-ruling-out-aliens-after-3-ufos-shot-down/

    Indeed. I have to say that your usual refrain that this should be bigger news than it is is more than usually apt, at the moment.

    Whatever this is, it's huge news either way. The world's leading military and technological superpower just has no idea what's going on. Even if it's just China or some private individual, that also would be huge news, in terms of the global power hierarchy.
    Or [tinfoil hat on], they have access to this technology but weren’t aware others did.

    As I note upthread the significant thing here is, barring ET, there appears to be man-made technology out there that far exceeds what the man on the street thought possible.

    Like balloons ? 😏
    Well yes, or balloons.

    The ‘tech beyond our comprehension’ is the more entertaining angle, mind.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    Leon said:

    I am fascinated by the UFO news. I have to admit I’m not quite convinced that aliens are involved in making octagonal objects with bits of string attached, but the query around propulsion of these objects is absolutely fascinating. It suggests there is military tech out there which is far beyond what we were aware of in terms of advancement, even allowing for a bit of “state secrecy” wriggle room.

    Where is the debris? It cannot be hard to find. Odd
    There's probably more debris from the missiles than the objects. Helium tends to drift away, for a start.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.
    Because they were very enthusiastically using them. Because they needed insanely reliable computers (by standards of the day ) that were also really small.

    Things like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B

    When ICs came in to the picture the US military were on them like a tramp on a bag of chips…
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,811
    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.

    And the startups quoted in the article I linked are neither huge nor yet highly profitable.
    Yup, if the government facilitated guaranteed buyers within the UK and subsidised the difference between global market price and buying from UK semiconductor companies for a period of 10 years it would probably be enough to get the industry going, but it would also cost tens of billions over that 10 years and even after that there's no guarantee that those companies will stay solvent once they are bidding for contracts on the open market.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    Nigelb said:

    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.

    And the startups quoted in the article I linked are neither huge nor yet highly profitable.

    That's true, but the EU and US funding is being gobbled up by companies which either have loads of money, or should have no trouble raising capital. They are shopping around for the biggest subsidies they can get for things they need to do to remain in business anyway.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    I’m not sure Angela thought this through:

    Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, has denied that her decision to expense hundreds of pounds on Apple electronics is the same as Whitehall’s use of government procurement cards on luxury items.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/13/conservatives-tories-rishi-sunak-expenses-spending-angela-rayner-labour-uk-politics-live

    It bloody is the same, and the Labour attack campaign on this is utterly stupid. We have vast millions in fraudulent contracts paid out to Tory friends and donors, yes they decide to go on the attack because government ministers on government business stay in suitable hotels.

    In 2025 when DPM Rayner is off to Paris for a summit she won't be staying in a sodding Ibis will she?
    No, she'll be in an Air(pod)BnB
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    Leon said:

    DJ41a said:

    Leon said:

    “The US Air Force general overseeing North American airspace said Sunday he was not ruling out aliens after a string of shoot-downs of unidentified objects.

    Asked whether he had ruled out an extraterrestrial origin for three floating objects shot down by warplanes in as many days, Gen. Glen VanHerck said: “I’ll let the intel community and the counterintelligence community figure that out.

    “I haven’t ruled out anything.””

    https://nypost.com/2023/02/13/top-general-not-ruling-out-aliens-after-3-ufos-shot-down/

    Indeed. I have to say that your usual refrain that this should be bigger news than it is is more than usually apt, at the moment.

    Whatever this is, it's huge news either way. The world's leading military and technological superpower just has no idea what's going on.
    See also Montana. Radar anomaly. Non-event. Yes we closed airspace, but ... as you were. Weeellll, if that's so then they sound very twitchy.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11742541/Montana-congressman-says-object-state-NORAD-dismissed-anomaly.html
    It could, still, just be drones and balloons plus a lot of neo-Cold War paranoia. I am not convinced we have any evidence for highly advanced technology let alone “alien” technology

    However we have plentiful evidence that the American (and Canadian) politico-military establishments are properly puzzled. If not rattled

    The UFO shit could be a story to cover up national humiliation: that the USA has been intruded/surveilled by China for many years and the Americans were too slow or blinkered to realise

    Or it’s a mix of all this. Plus aliens
    It smacks a bit of the Gatwick drone fiasco. Were there ever actually any drones there?
    Probably not in the sense of what people thought they saw. Some actual drone hobbyists were accused of things, with varying plausibility.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,979
    edited February 2023
    Its funny that people are bemoaning a lack of multibillion investments and just a few days/weeks ago the news was dominated by the oil and gas industry - an industry that manages multibillion investments routinely - and that sector was being bemoaned for not paying enough taxes apparently. Certainly not celebrated for making investments.

    Having the right investment structure in place can be done by means other than writing a blank cheque.
  • Is Scotland similar to Scandinavian nations? SNP voters certainly think so...

    🇳🇴,🇩🇰, 🇸🇪 ,🇮🇸 , 🇫🇮: 52-61% SNP say similar
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿: 31%

    ...but voters for the major unionist parties disagree

    🇳🇴,🇩🇰, 🇸🇪 ,🇮🇸 , 🇫🇮: 22-31% of Scot Con/Lab/LD say similar
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿: 69%


    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2023/02/13/scotland-similar-scandinavian-nations


  • Would you support or oppose A&E and intensive care nurses going on strike?

    Support: 52%
    Oppose: 39%

    YouGov
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.
    Because they were very enthusiastically using them. Because they needed insanely reliable computers (by standards of the day ) that were also really small.

    Things like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B

    When ICs came in to the picture the US military were on them like a tramp on a bag of chips…
    Exactly. It wasn't the "space race" that gave us the modern electronics industry, it was the far large military rocket programmes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,940

    Is Scotland similar to Scandinavian nations? SNP voters certainly think so...

    🇳🇴,🇩🇰, 🇸🇪 ,🇮🇸 , 🇫🇮: 52-61% SNP say similar
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿: 31%

    ...but voters for the major unionist parties disagree

    🇳🇴,🇩🇰, 🇸🇪 ,🇮🇸 , 🇫🇮: 22-31% of Scot Con/Lab/LD say similar
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿: 69%


    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2023/02/13/scotland-similar-scandinavian-nations


    Well given the Swedish government is reliant on support from the Nationalist Swedish Democrats I can see why the Scottish National Party would see the similarities!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    I’m not sure Angela thought this through:

    Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, has denied that her decision to expense hundreds of pounds on Apple electronics is the same as Whitehall’s use of government procurement cards on luxury items.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/13/conservatives-tories-rishi-sunak-expenses-spending-angela-rayner-labour-uk-politics-live

    It bloody is the same, and the Labour attack campaign on this is utterly stupid. We have vast millions in fraudulent contracts paid out to Tory friends and donors, yes they decide to go on the attack because government ministers on government business stay in suitable hotels.

    In 2025 when DPM Rayner is off to Paris for a summit she won't be staying in a sodding Ibis will she?
    Indeed.

    This is a stupid line to go down.

    Almost as stupid as the time Brown tried to brief against the head of the U.K. military. Because he was taking foreign dignitaries (including chiefs of other militaries) to Aske. A pizza and pasta chain on about the Pizza Express level.
    Odd how we all saw this and thought the same thing: non-story, and likely to backfire. It was patently obvious. Yet somehow Labour strategists waved it through.

    First tactical misstep from Starmer's team for quite a while.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497

    algarkirk said:

    I’m not sure Angela thought this through:

    Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, has denied that her decision to expense hundreds of pounds on Apple electronics is the same as Whitehall’s use of government procurement cards on luxury items.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/13/conservatives-tories-rishi-sunak-expenses-spending-angela-rayner-labour-uk-politics-live

    Labour's answer to Sharon Stone was notably awful this morning on R4 Today.

    She was horrifically poor. Is that really, really the best Labour can do? Really?
    Good question. At the moment all parties have weaknesses varying from extinction level events to individuals at the top that just aren't the calibre.

    Even the impregnable SNP seems to have developed a death wish. As for Labour, Angela Rayner (for whom I have a real bias in favour) has not being doing well - her job is to make sure that Labour voters vote Labour and that Tory voters who want to vote Labour aren't put off by her. And, though I am in a minority here, Rachel Reeves, as shadow CoE is just not a heavyweight.

    None of this surely can stop Labour coming top; best result by far will be Labour needing LD support.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.
    Because they were very enthusiastically using them. Because they needed insanely reliable computers (by standards of the day ) that were also really small.

    Things like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B

    When ICs came in to the picture the US military were on them like a tramp on a bag of chips…
    Exactly. It wasn't the "space race" that gave us the modern electronics industry, it was the far large military rocket programmes.
    To be fair, the two were intertwined.

    The Saturn V F1 engine started out as - ”for reliability, a rocket either needs 1 engine or lots. What is the required size for 1 engine for the first stage of an ICBM to put Ivy Mike on the Kremlin?”
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.

    And the startups quoted in the article I linked are neither huge nor yet highly profitable.
    Yup, if the government facilitated guaranteed buyers within the UK and subsidised the difference between global market price and buying from UK semiconductor companies for a period of 10 years it would probably be enough to get the industry going, but it would also cost tens of billions over that 10 years and even after that there's no guarantee that those companies will stay solvent once they are bidding for contracts on the open market.
    Here, though, we're talking about specialist businesses. Paragraf, for instance, is developing graphene on semiconductor products.

    More generally, it's about staying in the technology game. If too many leave, that becomes even harder to reverse.
  • Is Scotland similar to Scandinavian nations? SNP voters certainly think so...

    🇳🇴,🇩🇰, 🇸🇪 ,🇮🇸 , 🇫🇮: 52-61% SNP say similar
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿: 31%

    ...but voters for the major unionist parties disagree

    🇳🇴,🇩🇰, 🇸🇪 ,🇮🇸 , 🇫🇮: 22-31% of Scot Con/Lab/LD say similar
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿: 69%


    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2023/02/13/scotland-similar-scandinavian-nations


    The good news for Scottish nationalists is that most people in the two Nordic nations we surveyed – Denmark and Sweden – do see Scotland as similar to their own countries. The bad news is that they do not see Scotland as distinctly similar to them compared to England, or the wider UK.

    While 58% of Danes and 56% of Swedes feel that Scotland is either very or fairly similar to their own countries, for England this figure is 62% and 61%, respectively.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    The other problem in that the government has failed to announce any strategy. Uncertainty carries additional costs - which are completely unnecessary.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497

    Is Scotland similar to Scandinavian nations? SNP voters certainly think so...

    🇳🇴,🇩🇰, 🇸🇪 ,🇮🇸 , 🇫🇮: 52-61% SNP say similar
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿: 31%

    ...but voters for the major unionist parties disagree

    🇳🇴,🇩🇰, 🇸🇪 ,🇮🇸 , 🇫🇮: 22-31% of Scot Con/Lab/LD say similar
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿: 69%


    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2023/02/13/scotland-similar-scandinavian-nations


    I suppose the thought of confirmation bias can be excluded? And why isn't there a 'North Korea' comparison? One party state; trade barrier with closest neighbour; our beloved leader.....

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,145
    Richardr said:

    Re the Owen Jones article:

    "In recent years, media outlets and politicians have treated the likes of Anderson as emblematic of working-class voters: a category they often see as, to be blunt, a white man in his 50s or 60s with a Midlands accent and reactionary opinions. Rishi Sunak, who enjoys a family fortune twice that of the king, presumably believes that Anderson represents a direct hotline to working-class England."

    that should read "some" media outlets and "some" politicians - both have a large range - compare the Daily Mail with The Guardian for example.

    Also when an article attributes a view to someone with the words "Rishi Sunak ... presumably believes" then we are in the world of make believe. I don't think anyone, including Anderson, believes the straw man he sets up.

    There are ranges of views across all types of people - the voters who voted Conservative last time were not all from the same social sphere.

    Ok but that's a bit nitpicky imo. The theme of the article is how the right seek to define the working class via their (supposed and subjective) "values" rather than their (objective and actual) relative poverty and therefore de-fang them as a threat to entrenched privilege and inequality. Lynch ilk working class, a threat; Anderson ilk working class, no threat. There's a fair amount in this, I think. It rings true to me.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,811
    edited February 2023
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.

    And the startups quoted in the article I linked are neither huge nor yet highly profitable.
    Yup, if the government facilitated guaranteed buyers within the UK and subsidised the difference between global market price and buying from UK semiconductor companies for a period of 10 years it would probably be enough to get the industry going, but it would also cost tens of billions over that 10 years and even after that there's no guarantee that those companies will stay solvent once they are bidding for contracts on the open market.
    Here, though, we're talking about specialist businesses. Paragraf, for instance, is developing graphene on semiconductor products.

    More generally, it's about staying in the technology game. If too many leave, that becomes even harder to reverse.
    I look at it the same way we did the Movie/TV subsidies which have been a huge, huge success and made the UK a TV and movie production super power. The initial costs are very high and the industry will always need some underlying support mechanism but the payoff is huge, visual media production is going to be our third largest single industry this decade after financial services and pharmaceuticals. When that production rebate was created it wasn't even in our top 20.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    I’m not sure Angela thought this through:

    Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, has denied that her decision to expense hundreds of pounds on Apple electronics is the same as Whitehall’s use of government procurement cards on luxury items.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/13/conservatives-tories-rishi-sunak-expenses-spending-angela-rayner-labour-uk-politics-live

    Labour's answer to Sharon Stone was notably awful this morning on R4 Today.

    She was horrifically poor. Is that really, really the best Labour can do? Really?
    Good question. At the moment all parties have weaknesses varying from extinction level events to individuals at the top that just aren't the calibre.

    Even the impregnable SNP seems to have developed a death wish. As for Labour, Angela Rayner (for whom I have a real bias in favour) has not being doing well - her job is to make sure that Labour voters vote Labour and that Tory voters who want to vote Labour aren't put off by her. And, though I am in a minority here, Rachel Reeves, as shadow CoE is just not a heavyweight.

    None of this surely can stop Labour coming top; best result by far will be Labour needing LD support.

    Expenses -- like family values -- is a double-edged sword in politics.

    Your side has to be squeaky clean to make it work.

    If any Tories need corruption dirt on Labour, try looking over Clawdd Offa.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Its funny that people are bemoaning a lack of multibillion investments and just a few days/weeks ago the news was dominated by the oil and gas industry - an industry that manages multibillion investments routinely - and that sector was being bemoaned for not paying enough taxes apparently. Certainly not celebrated for making investments.

    Having the right investment structure in place can be done by means other than writing a blank cheque.

    What's being talked about is hundreds of millions, not billions.
    No one thinks we can match the resources of the EU or US.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.

    And the startups quoted in the article I linked are neither huge nor yet highly profitable.
    Yup, if the government facilitated guaranteed buyers within the UK and subsidised the difference between global market price and buying from UK semiconductor companies for a period of 10 years it would probably be enough to get the industry going, but it would also cost tens of billions over that 10 years and even after that there's no guarantee that those companies will stay solvent once they are bidding for contracts on the open market.
    Here, though, we're talking about specialist businesses. Paragraf, for instance, is developing graphene on semiconductor products.

    More generally, it's about staying in the technology game. If too many leave, that becomes even harder to reverse.
    I look at it the same way we did the Movie/TV subsidies which have been a huge, huge success and made the UK a TV and movie production super power. The initial costs are very high and the industry will always need some underlying support mechanism but the payoff is huge, visual media production is going to be our third largest single industry this decade after financial services and pharmaceuticals. When that production rebate was created it wasn't even in our top 20.
    We perhaps have rather different political perspectives, but on this we seem to be in agreement.
  • algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    I’m not sure Angela thought this through:

    Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, has denied that her decision to expense hundreds of pounds on Apple electronics is the same as Whitehall’s use of government procurement cards on luxury items.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/13/conservatives-tories-rishi-sunak-expenses-spending-angela-rayner-labour-uk-politics-live

    Labour's answer to Sharon Stone was notably awful this morning on R4 Today.

    She was horrifically poor. Is that really, really the best Labour can do? Really?
    Good question. At the moment all parties have weaknesses varying from extinction level events to individuals at the top that just aren't the calibre.

    Even the impregnable SNP seems to have developed a death wish. As for Labour, Angela Rayner (for whom I have a real bias in favour) has not being doing well - her job is to make sure that Labour voters vote Labour and that Tory voters who want to vote Labour aren't put off by her. And, though I am in a minority here, Rachel Reeves, as shadow CoE is just not a heavyweight.

    None of this surely can stop Labour coming top; best result by far will be Labour needing LD support.

    Expenses -- like family values -- is a double-edged sword in politics.

    Your side has to be squeaky clean to make it work.

    If any Tories need corruption dirt on Labour, try looking over Clawdd Offa.
    Yvette Cooper will do.
  • Whither Opinium?

    Exactly one month since the last one!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Weirdest thing I've seen from the earthquake disaster.

    Adıyaman, Turkey. One of the most damaged by the earthquake cities.

    The buildings have literally "stepped" onto the cars that were parked nearby.

    Hundreds of buildings in the city became rubble.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1625141492925845510
  • Nigelb said:

    Its funny that people are bemoaning a lack of multibillion investments and just a few days/weeks ago the news was dominated by the oil and gas industry - an industry that manages multibillion investments routinely - and that sector was being bemoaned for not paying enough taxes apparently. Certainly not celebrated for making investments.

    Having the right investment structure in place can be done by means other than writing a blank cheque.

    What's being talked about is hundreds of millions, not billions.
    No one thinks we can match the resources of the EU or US.
    Nor should we. Though one could argue the EU don't have the resources to match Shell, BP etc when it comes to investment either.

    The private sector can make the right investments if there's the right incentives. Max has made my point with the film industry, we haven't chosen winners and lovers there, we've set a sensible investment framework then left it to other parties to operate within that framework.
  • Resignation incoming.

    BBC News understands the BBC board is meeting on Monday. One source has told BBC News that there were no scheduled meetings planned this month.

  • DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    edited February 2023
    Those aliens are being so naughty, winding up China and the US against each other.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-64621598

    "China's foreign ministry says the US has flown balloons into its airspace more than 10 times in the past year.

    It comes after the US on 4 February shot down a suspected spy balloon over its airspace - which China said was one of its weather balloons gone astray.

    Relations between the two countries have since deteriorated. In recent days, the US has also shot down a number of other unidentified objects.

    Questioned on Monday, Beijing said the US had made many airspace breaches.

    'It's not uncommon as well for the US to illegally enter the airspace of other countries,' said foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin at a regular press briefing.

    'Since last year alone, US balloons have illegally flown above China more than 10 times without any approval from Chinese authorities.'

    'The first thing the US side should do is start with a clean slate, undergo some self-reflection, instead of smearing and accusing China,' he added.

    He said Beijing had responded to the incursions in a 'responsible and professional' manner.

    'If you want to know more about US high-altitude balloons illegally entering China's airspace, I suggest you refer to the US side,' he said.

    Chinese state-affiliated media reported over the weekend that an unidentified flying object had been spotted off the country's east coast, with the military preparing to shoot it down.

    The White House denied Beijing's accusation that it sent balloons over China to conduct surveillance, with National Security Council spokesperson Adrienne Watson calling the claims 'false' on Twitter.

    The first balloon incident led US Secretary of State Antony Blinken to cancel a planned trip to Beijing. The top diplomat called China's alleged high-altitude spying 'unacceptable and irresponsible'.
    "

    Back in 1960 the US denied sending spy planes over the USSR. How disgraceful to accuse the US of doing something as dirty as that! Then the Soviets produced pilot Gary Powers and asked "Who's this guy, then? Hmmm?" Eisenhower promptly did an about turn and claimed the US had a right to overfly. Imagine thinking the US should refrain from conducting such thoroughly honourable flights!

    The US denial in the present case is interesting. I wonder whether it will come back to bite them. All it will take is China producing electronics they have recovered from one US balloon they shoot down. That's if the US really is sending balloons over China and it's not wholly the work of those pesky aliens.
  • glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.
    Because they were very enthusiastically using them. Because they needed insanely reliable computers (by standards of the day ) that were also really small.

    Things like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B

    When ICs came in to the picture the US military were on them like a tramp on a bag of chips…
    Exactly. It wasn't the "space race" that gave us the modern electronics industry, it was the far large military rocket programmes.
    To be fair, the two were intertwined.

    The Saturn V F1 engine started out as - ”for reliability, a rocket either needs 1 engine or lots. What is the required size for 1 engine for the first stage of an ICBM to put Ivy Mike on the Kremlin?”
    "Ivy Mike". Bloody transsexual h-bombs.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.

    And the startups quoted in the article I linked are neither huge nor yet highly profitable.
    Yup, if the government facilitated guaranteed buyers within the UK and subsidised the difference between global market price and buying from UK semiconductor companies for a period of 10 years it would probably be enough to get the industry going, but it would also cost tens of billions over that 10 years and even after that there's no guarantee that those companies will stay solvent once they are bidding for contracts on the open market.
    Here, though, we're talking about specialist businesses. Paragraf, for instance, is developing graphene on semiconductor products.

    More generally, it's about staying in the technology game. If too many leave, that becomes even harder to reverse.
    I look at it the same way we did the Movie/TV subsidies which have been a huge, huge success and made the UK a TV and movie production super power. The initial costs are very high and the industry will always need some underlying support mechanism but the payoff is huge, visual media production is going to be our third largest single industry this decade after financial services and pharmaceuticals. When that production rebate was created it wasn't even in our top 20.
    Agreed, and as an aside folk on here should hush their sneers on people with film or media degrees.
  • DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    DJ41a said:

    Those aliens are being so naughty, winding up China and the US against each other.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-64621598

    "China's foreign ministry says the US has flown balloons into its airspace more than 10 times in the past year.

    It comes after the US on 4 February shot down a suspected spy balloon over its airspace - which China said was one of its weather balloons gone astray.

    Relations between the two countries have since deteriorated. In recent days, the US has also shot down a number of other unidentified objects.

    Questioned on Monday, Beijing said the US had made many airspace breaches.

    'It's not uncommon as well for the US to illegally enter the airspace of other countries,' said foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin at a regular press briefing.

    'Since last year alone, US balloons have illegally flown above China more than 10 times without any approval from Chinese authorities.'

    'The first thing the US side should do is start with a clean slate, undergo some self-reflection, instead of smearing and accusing China,' he added.

    He said Beijing had responded to the incursions in a 'responsible and professional' manner.

    'If you want to know more about US high-altitude balloons illegally entering China's airspace, I suggest you refer to the US side,' he said.

    Chinese state-affiliated media reported over the weekend that an unidentified flying object had been spotted off the country's east coast, with the military preparing to shoot it down.

    The White House denied Beijing's accusation that it sent balloons over China to conduct surveillance, with National Security Council spokesperson Adrienne Watson calling the claims 'false' on Twitter.

    The first balloon incident led US Secretary of State Antony Blinken to cancel a planned trip to Beijing. The top diplomat called China's alleged high-altitude spying 'unacceptable and irresponsible'.
    "

    Back in 1960 the US denied sending spy planes over the USSR. How disgraceful to accuse the US of doing something as dirty as that! Then the Soviets produced pilot Gary Powers and asked "Who's this guy, then? Hmmm?" Eisenhower promptly did an about turn and claimed the US had a right to overfly. Imagine thinking the US should refrain from conducting such thoroughly honourable flights!

    The US denial in the present case is interesting. I wonder whether it will come back to bite them. All it will take is China producing electronics they have recovered from one US balloon they shoot down. That's if the US really is sending balloons over China and it's not wholly the work of those pesky aliens.

    That said, maybe the aliens can fake up some electronics that ostensibly come from any country they want. Got to wonder what the aliens think of Vladimir Putin. Maybe they like him.

    Sergei Shoygu probably knows much more than he is saying, especially given the excavations here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Por-Bazhyn
  • glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.
    Because they were very enthusiastically using them. Because they needed insanely reliable computers (by standards of the day ) that were also really small.

    Things like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B

    When ICs came in to the picture the US military were on them like a tramp on a bag of chips…
    Exactly. It wasn't the "space race" that gave us the modern electronics industry, it was the far large military rocket programmes.
    To be fair, the two were intertwined.

    The Saturn V F1 engine started out as - ”for reliability, a rocket either needs 1 engine or lots. What is the required size for 1 engine for the first stage of an ICBM to put Ivy Mike on the Kremlin?”
    "Ivy Mike". Bloody transsexual h-bombs.
    Would be one heck of a Poison Ivy.
  • glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.
    Because they were very enthusiastically using them. Because they needed insanely reliable computers (by standards of the day ) that were also really small.

    Things like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B

    When ICs came in to the picture the US military were on them like a tramp on a bag of chips…
    Exactly. It wasn't the "space race" that gave us the modern electronics industry, it was the far large military rocket programmes.
    To be fair, the two were intertwined.

    The Saturn V F1 engine started out as - ”for reliability, a rocket either needs 1 engine or lots. What is the required size for 1 engine for the first stage of an ICBM to put Ivy Mike on the Kremlin?”
    "Ivy Mike". Bloody transsexual h-bombs.
    Sue Neil.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    TimS said:

    I’m not sure Angela thought this through:

    Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, has denied that her decision to expense hundreds of pounds on Apple electronics is the same as Whitehall’s use of government procurement cards on luxury items.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/feb/13/conservatives-tories-rishi-sunak-expenses-spending-angela-rayner-labour-uk-politics-live

    It bloody is the same, and the Labour attack campaign on this is utterly stupid. We have vast millions in fraudulent contracts paid out to Tory friends and donors, yes they decide to go on the attack because government ministers on government business stay in suitable hotels.

    In 2025 when DPM Rayner is off to Paris for a summit she won't be staying in a sodding Ibis will she?
    Indeed.

    This is a stupid line to go down.

    Almost as stupid as the time Brown tried to brief against the head of the U.K. military. Because he was taking foreign dignitaries (including chiefs of other militaries) to Aske. A pizza and pasta chain on about the Pizza Express level.
    Odd how we all saw this and thought the same thing: non-story, and likely to backfire. It was patently obvious. Yet somehow Labour strategists waved it through.

    First tactical misstep from Starmer's team for quite a while.
    One of the main reasons govt. depts use GPCs is to circumvent the laborious procurement processes (not the COVID f̶r̶a̶u̶d̶ fast lane), often for quite minor stuff like specific training which can't be paid via invoice or to subscribe to a journal.

    Years ago, I had to write a procurement business case to download a font (seriously).
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Nigelb said:

    Weirdest thing I've seen from the earthquake disaster.

    Adıyaman, Turkey. One of the most damaged by the earthquake cities.

    The buildings have literally "stepped" onto the cars that were parked nearby.

    Hundreds of buildings in the city became rubble.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1625141492925845510

    Presumably the bottom storey has collapsed. A lot of buildings appear to have had this happen often with the 2nd and higher storeys remaining more or less intact (but lower obvs.) My assumption is that a violent sideways movement snapped the columns of the ground floor and dropped the whole building by one floor.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.
    Because they were very enthusiastically using them. Because they needed insanely reliable computers (by standards of the day ) that were also really small.

    Things like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B

    When ICs came in to the picture the US military were on them like a tramp on a bag of chips…
    Exactly. It wasn't the "space race" that gave us the modern electronics industry, it was the far large military rocket programmes.
    To be fair, the two were intertwined.

    The Saturn V F1 engine started out as - ”for reliability, a rocket either needs 1 engine or lots. What is the required size for 1 engine for the first stage of an ICBM to put Ivy Mike on the Kremlin?”
    "Ivy Mike". Bloody transsexual h-bombs.
    Sue Neil.
    Why, what has Neil done?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why do you think the US has a semiconductor industry in the first place ?

    I'd prefer to have some of the highly profitable industries in the UK.

    US universities, national laboratories, and west coast electronics companies clustering, plus a whole load of Cold War spending, especially on electronics for aircraft, air defence, and ballistic missiles. The desire to integrate components and build more robust systems lead to the sort of electronics production that later facilitated LSI for computer systems, and ultimately enabled the micro-computer. I'm pretty sure that giving enormous tax breaks to already huge and highly profitable companies paid no real part in it, but if I'm wrong someone can pipe up.
    As Max pointed out, and as you just described, it is about funding.

    The US government bought 90% of US (& the world's) semiconductor production in the industry's early years.
    Because they were very enthusiastically using them. Because they needed insanely reliable computers (by standards of the day ) that were also really small.

    Things like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B

    When ICs came in to the picture the US military were on them like a tramp on a bag of chips…
    Exactly. It wasn't the "space race" that gave us the modern electronics industry, it was the far large military rocket programmes.
    To be fair, the two were intertwined.

    The Saturn V F1 engine started out as - ”for reliability, a rocket either needs 1 engine or lots. What is the required size for 1 engine for the first stage of an ICBM to put Ivy Mike on the Kremlin?”
    "Ivy Mike". Bloody transsexual h-bombs.
    A mad piece of engineering. At one point, they realised that they wanted to make the uranium pusher - a cylinder of uranium weighing many tons - more reflective. So they hired a sign painter from Las Vegas, who plated it perfectly in gold leaf, mirror smooth.

    The Soviets has big problems gold plating their H Bombs, since post Romanovs, the demand for acres of gold leaf work had dropped of quite a bit.

    Who knew that bad taste could be a strategic capability?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,148
    edited February 2023
    The other thing that's interesting about this whole balloons business is the cultural aspect.
    If Twitter is anything to go by, there are huge numbers of Americans whose first reaction to all this is that it's simply the latest in a trio of government-controlled propaganda and manipulation ( 'psyops') after first the pandemic, and then Ukraine. In fact, that almost seems to be the dominant and reflex American reaction on Twitter, which is itself in fact even still dominated by left-of-centre posters.

    I doubt the reaction would be as strong in that direction, from Europeans, or Asians. America is not in a good place not only politically, but in terms of its public psychology , and trust in democratic institutions.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    edited February 2023

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    On topic, not sure Labour voters who think they’re on track for a Labour government are going to “lend” their votes to the LDs. Much easier to do if Labour are clearly heading for opposition - which won’t be the case this time. Who doesn’t like to back a winner? “Only LibDems (who?) can stop the Tories” may come across as counterintuitive, and certainly from a national point of view.

    Depends on the constituency, Carlotta.

    Here in sunny Tewkesbury the LDs are coming from so far back the considerations you mention may well apply. I'm unsure how I would vote myself.

    Down the road in Cheltenham however it's a different gether altothing. If the LDs don't win there, they've had a very bad night.
    And if you look at 1997 that disproves Carlotta's contention in any case.

    Historically the third party has always had its best results when a Conservative government is unpopular, because many Conservative voters have always been resistant to voting Labour even when thoroughly disillusioned with 'their own side', whereas the other way around whilst Labour may have had a historically strong tribal vote, once a voter is ready to break with the tribe they are mostly quite willing to jump to the Tories without stopping to vote for a centre party - cf. the former red wall.
    What historical evidence is there for that besides 1997? Be careful of letting history be a single instance.

    Actually if you look further back, the third party did very well in 1983 (where they doubled their seats) while the Tories were scoring a landslide and Labour were doing very badly. The last time before that they did well was February 1974 when both major parties fell backwards by a combined 13.4% of the national vote share. While their worst result was of course 2015 when both major parties gained vote share.

    There's no discernible pattern it seems to me to be a case of this party doing well is good news for the third party, rather it seems to be a case of the third party can do well when a party suffers, whether it be Tories (1997) or Labour (1983) or both (1974).
    1983 is an unusual case, which is often misunderstood as somehow being a split in the anti-Tory vote. Yet research has shown that a majority of Alliance voters in that GE preferred the Tories to Labour. It's quite possible that the Alliance column included a lot of former Tory voters repelled by Mrs T, whereas disaffected Labour voters, repelled by Foot, CND and the rest, plumped Conservative. Hence the massive run of good but not close second places the Alliance chalked up in what we now call the blue wall.
    Indeed, but 1997 is an unusual case too. All cases where the number of instances = 1 are rather by definition unusual cases.

    Either way, there's not enough data from a sample of 1 to give any rule of thumb. The Lib Dems ought to do better in the next election simple due to a rising tide effect, there's more opportunities from the Tories doing badly (and less dislike of the Lib Dems than in the past so that should unwind) but then when Labour next becomes unpopular that too could lead to new opportunities for the Lib Dems just as they gained seats in 1983.

    Churn and chaos creates opportunities.
    Well I can only offer my own view based on a lifetime's experience of campaigning for and representing the Liberals and then LibDems. People who tend to vote LibDem in General Elections have always been disproportionately disaffected Tories, hence the Liberals always tended to do better in more middle class areas (whilst still of course being miles behind) and the party does better when the Tories are departing office - the two GEs in 1974 are two more cases in point; indeed for a few southern constituencies the Feb 1974 Liberal vote share remains unbeaten by any third party to this day. Whereas compare 1970 and 1979 - poor Liberal results when Labour was being turfed out. If there is an exception, it's 2010 and Cleggmania.

    The reason the Libs/LibDems pick up these people is that many Tories see themselves (generally unreasonably) as "not political" and their primary motivation is fear of Labour. Even when they are p***ed off with the Tories they still won't vote Labour.

    Labour voters can be won over but this requires action, not policies, and in an area where Labour has demonstrably failed or taken people for granted. So isolated seats like Bermondsey or Redcar or Chesterfield can be taken when Labour is seen as complacent and out-of-touch and voters can be won over by being active and present and getting things done. The irony is that, although more difficult to win over, these ex-Labour voters once converted tend to be more loyal (at least pre-coalition!) than the disaffected Tories, who when their party gets its act together tend to go back (for the GE) regardless of how much work their LibDem campaigners are doing.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,148
    edited February 2023
    The other current American obession on twitter is "distractions". The balloons are either some form of 'distraction', which thousands of posters enjoy spending hours creatively excavating and cataloguing , amongst the supposed others , or the latest in a trio of the "manipulations", after Covid and Ukraine.
    Combined, these are actually making up the majority of posts on the topic.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    "The tyranny of digital currencies
    Central banks are creating their own surveillance state
    BY THOMAS FAZI"

    https://unherd.com/2023/02/the-tyranny-of-digital-currencies/
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Ghedebrav said:

    Years ago, I had to write a procurement business case to download a font (seriously).

    Downloading it is cheaper than using a courier.
    You're avenir laugh.
  • The SNP are not seen much more favourably than Scottish Labour these days (which is a big change from the last decade & half). SNP has a mean score of 39, barely much more than SLab at 36.
    FM is mean 41, not much ahead of Starmer at 37 or Sarwar at 36


    https://twitter.com/DeanMThomson/status/1625132278337703937
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    The idea buying some AirPods for work is in anyway comparable to the Tories and their continued sleaze is laughable

    Labour have always been as bad as the Tories, only thing both parties agree on is milking the public purse in their own interests.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    Trying to think what the most interesting outcome of this whole balloon thing would be. The options so far being China and America sending spy vehicles at each other (boring), aliens (unlikely), or something innocent and overblown like weather balloons.

    The more fun outcomes might be something like:

    - These turn out to be surveillance craft sent up by a mad genius or private organisation that's been quietly plotting to a. zap people with lethal brainwaves then rule the world, or b. steal valuable technological secrets to make money
    - A small country not otherwise known to be a geopolitical menace has decided to enter the espionage game. Say Tonga (quite convenient Pacific location), Guernsey or Uruguay.
    - Someone with a huge amount of money is doing an excellent prank following a dare by his mates
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The number of UK companies considering decamping is getting somewhat alarming.

    British semiconductor bosses threaten to move overseas as U.S. and EU splurge on chips
    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/13/uk-semiconductor-strategy-chip-firms-threaten-to-move-overseas.html

    ...In the U.S., President Joe Biden signed into law the CHIPS and Science Act, a $280 billion package that includes $52 billion of funding to boost domestic semiconductor manufacturing.

    The EU, meanwhile, has earmarked 43 billion euros ($45.9 billion) for Europe’s semiconductor industry with the aim of producing 20% of the world’s semiconductors by 2030...

    ...The U.K. won’t have the kind of financial firepower to match those bold spending packages, they say. However, they’re hopeful the country will commit to investment in the several millions, tax incentives, and an easier immigration process for high-skilled workers...

    ...A U.K. semiconductor strategy was expected to come out last year. But it has faced a series of delays due to political instability. The government previously suggested establishing a national institution, among other initiatives, to boost its semiconductor industry.

    “The rumors I’ve heard is [it may arrive] any day now,” Chris Ballance, co-founder of U.K. quantum computing startup Oxford Ionics, told CNBC. However, he added the process had been “going on for the last four or five months.”

    Given we have Brexited, and given the consequent disinvestment in the UK, what are the best/least bad bets for the UK at this point, for our niche industries?
    The idea that we need to be in the EU for industry or due to an EU trade war with China, is as patently absurd as an argument that Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan need to join China for the same reason in reverse.

    Actually well run smaller independent countries like SK, Taiwan and Singapore tend to do much better than the bureaucratic behemothic bloc does.
    "Well run" is very definitely an example of begging the question. But nice try slipping it in there.

    British semiconductor bosses threaten to move overseas as U.S. and EU splurge on chips
    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/13/uk-semiconductor-strategy-chip-firms-threaten-to-move-overseas.html

    ...In the U.S., President Joe Biden signed into law the CHIPS and Science Act, a $280 billion package that includes $52 billion of funding to boost domestic semiconductor manufacturing.

    The EU, meanwhile, has earmarked 43 billion euros ($45.9 billion) for Europe’s semiconductor industry with the aim of producing 20% of the world’s semiconductors by 2030...

    ...The U.K. won’t have the kind of financial firepower to match those bold spending packages, they say. However, they’re hopeful the country will commit to investment in the several millions, tax incentives, and an easier immigration process for high-skilled workers...

    ...A U.K. semiconductor strategy was expected to come out last year. But it has faced a series of delays due to political instability. The government previously suggested establishing a national institution, among other initiatives, to boost its semiconductor industry.

    “The rumors I’ve heard is [it may arrive] any day now,” Chris Ballance, co-founder of U.K. quantum computing startup Oxford Ionics, told CNBC. However, he added the process had been “going on for the last four or five months.”
    Anything that requires diverting today's (and sadly tomorrow's) money away from old people is simply not going to get funded. The UK government now exists to shovel tax to them via pensions and healthcare, everything else is expendable, including education, industrial spending and eventually even defence spending.
    One trick pony Max, especially given you could buy and sell multiple pensioners.
    Not many pensioners can afford £40 Taco's.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited February 2023
    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Years ago, I had to write a procurement business case to download a font (seriously).

    Downloading it is cheaper than using a courier.
    You're avenir laugh.
    A bold statement.
    Is it justified ?
  • Nigelb said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Years ago, I had to write a procurement business case to download a font (seriously).

    Downloading it is cheaper than using a courier.
    You're avenir laugh.
    A bold statement.
    Is it justified ?
    Best April Fool ever….

    https://amp.theguardian.com/gnmeducationcentre/archive-educational-resource-april-2012

  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,802
    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The number of UK companies considering decamping is getting somewhat alarming.

    British semiconductor bosses threaten to move overseas as U.S. and EU splurge on chips
    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/13/uk-semiconductor-strategy-chip-firms-threaten-to-move-overseas.html

    ...In the U.S., President Joe Biden signed into law the CHIPS and Science Act, a $280 billion package that includes $52 billion of funding to boost domestic semiconductor manufacturing.

    The EU, meanwhile, has earmarked 43 billion euros ($45.9 billion) for Europe’s semiconductor industry with the aim of producing 20% of the world’s semiconductors by 2030...

    ...The U.K. won’t have the kind of financial firepower to match those bold spending packages, they say. However, they’re hopeful the country will commit to investment in the several millions, tax incentives, and an easier immigration process for high-skilled workers...

    ...A U.K. semiconductor strategy was expected to come out last year. But it has faced a series of delays due to political instability. The government previously suggested establishing a national institution, among other initiatives, to boost its semiconductor industry.

    “The rumors I’ve heard is [it may arrive] any day now,” Chris Ballance, co-founder of U.K. quantum computing startup Oxford Ionics, told CNBC. However, he added the process had been “going on for the last four or five months.”

    Given we have Brexited, and given the consequent disinvestment in the UK, what are the best/least bad bets for the UK at this point, for our niche industries?
    The idea that we need to be in the EU for industry or due to an EU trade war with China, is as patently absurd as an argument that Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan need to join China for the same reason in reverse.

    Actually well run smaller independent countries like SK, Taiwan and Singapore tend to do much better than the bureaucratic behemothic bloc does.
    "Well run" is very definitely an example of begging the question. But nice try slipping it in there.

    British semiconductor bosses threaten to move overseas as U.S. and EU splurge on chips
    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/13/uk-semiconductor-strategy-chip-firms-threaten-to-move-overseas.html

    ...In the U.S., President Joe Biden signed into law the CHIPS and Science Act, a $280 billion package that includes $52 billion of funding to boost domestic semiconductor manufacturing.

    The EU, meanwhile, has earmarked 43 billion euros ($45.9 billion) for Europe’s semiconductor industry with the aim of producing 20% of the world’s semiconductors by 2030...

    ...The U.K. won’t have the kind of financial firepower to match those bold spending packages, they say. However, they’re hopeful the country will commit to investment in the several millions, tax incentives, and an easier immigration process for high-skilled workers...

    ...A U.K. semiconductor strategy was expected to come out last year. But it has faced a series of delays due to political instability. The government previously suggested establishing a national institution, among other initiatives, to boost its semiconductor industry.

    “The rumors I’ve heard is [it may arrive] any day now,” Chris Ballance, co-founder of U.K. quantum computing startup Oxford Ionics, told CNBC. However, he added the process had been “going on for the last four or five months.”
    Anything that requires diverting today's (and sadly tomorrow's) money away from old people is simply not going to get funded. The UK government now exists to shovel tax to them via pensions and healthcare, everything else is expendable, including education, industrial spending and eventually even defence spending.
    One trick pony Max, especially given you could buy and sell multiple pensioners.
    Not many pensioners can afford £40 Taco's.
    Not many pensioners (or anyone else, frankly, but put that aside) EAT £40 tacos. But as a segment of society, pensioners are better able to afford £40 tacos than any other age group. If they wanted to spend their money on that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    Nigelb said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Years ago, I had to write a procurement business case to download a font (seriously).

    Downloading it is cheaper than using a courier.
    You're avenir laugh.
    A bold statement.
    Is it justified ?
    This thread is full of wing dings.
  • Nigelb said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Years ago, I had to write a procurement business case to download a font (seriously).

    Downloading it is cheaper than using a courier.
    You're avenir laugh.
    A bold statement.
    Is it justified ?
    This thread is full of wing dings.
    I shot the serif.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    The idea buying some AirPods for work is in anyway comparable to the Tories and their continued sleaze is laughable

    True but Labour are not shy of sleaze themselves. Never forget Ecclestone, thrice sacked Mandelson etc.

    I suspect, but cannot prove, that the level of sleaze increases in proportion to time in office. The tories have been there for 13 long years and once again sleaze is consuming them. If/when labour serve a similar term, it will happen to them too. Boundaries get blurred.

    I don't subscribe to the view of politics that Labour are more virtuous. It was interesting on The Last Leg to see Adam Hill's suggestion that Labour should give their MP's pay rise to charity utterly dismissed by Dara O'Brain.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,148
    edited February 2023
    TimS said:

    Trying to think what the most interesting outcome of this whole balloon thing would be. The options so far being China and America sending spy vehicles at each other (boring), aliens (unlikely), or something innocent and overblown like weather balloons.

    The more fun outcomes might be something like:

    - These turn out to be surveillance craft sent up by a mad genius or private organisation that's been quietly plotting to a. zap people with lethal brainwaves then rule the world, or b. steal valuable technological secrets to make money
    - A small country not otherwise known to be a geopolitical menace has decided to enter the espionage game. Say Tonga (quite convenient Pacific location), Guernsey or Uruguay.
    - Someone with a huge amount of money is doing an excellent prank following a dare by his mates

    There is a James Bond villain type scenario, isn't there. I'm trying to picture which one ; Dr No was always the best performance, but this would be a more like the '80s Bond, with the airships, silicon valley and Grace Jones.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    Cookie said:

    malcolmg said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The number of UK companies considering decamping is getting somewhat alarming.

    British semiconductor bosses threaten to move overseas as U.S. and EU splurge on chips
    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/13/uk-semiconductor-strategy-chip-firms-threaten-to-move-overseas.html

    ...In the U.S., President Joe Biden signed into law the CHIPS and Science Act, a $280 billion package that includes $52 billion of funding to boost domestic semiconductor manufacturing.

    The EU, meanwhile, has earmarked 43 billion euros ($45.9 billion) for Europe’s semiconductor industry with the aim of producing 20% of the world’s semiconductors by 2030...

    ...The U.K. won’t have the kind of financial firepower to match those bold spending packages, they say. However, they’re hopeful the country will commit to investment in the several millions, tax incentives, and an easier immigration process for high-skilled workers...

    ...A U.K. semiconductor strategy was expected to come out last year. But it has faced a series of delays due to political instability. The government previously suggested establishing a national institution, among other initiatives, to boost its semiconductor industry.

    “The rumors I’ve heard is [it may arrive] any day now,” Chris Ballance, co-founder of U.K. quantum computing startup Oxford Ionics, told CNBC. However, he added the process had been “going on for the last four or five months.”

    Given we have Brexited, and given the consequent disinvestment in the UK, what are the best/least bad bets for the UK at this point, for our niche industries?
    The idea that we need to be in the EU for industry or due to an EU trade war with China, is as patently absurd as an argument that Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan need to join China for the same reason in reverse.

    Actually well run smaller independent countries like SK, Taiwan and Singapore tend to do much better than the bureaucratic behemothic bloc does.
    "Well run" is very definitely an example of begging the question. But nice try slipping it in there.

    British semiconductor bosses threaten to move overseas as U.S. and EU splurge on chips
    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/13/uk-semiconductor-strategy-chip-firms-threaten-to-move-overseas.html

    ...In the U.S., President Joe Biden signed into law the CHIPS and Science Act, a $280 billion package that includes $52 billion of funding to boost domestic semiconductor manufacturing.

    The EU, meanwhile, has earmarked 43 billion euros ($45.9 billion) for Europe’s semiconductor industry with the aim of producing 20% of the world’s semiconductors by 2030...

    ...The U.K. won’t have the kind of financial firepower to match those bold spending packages, they say. However, they’re hopeful the country will commit to investment in the several millions, tax incentives, and an easier immigration process for high-skilled workers...

    ...A U.K. semiconductor strategy was expected to come out last year. But it has faced a series of delays due to political instability. The government previously suggested establishing a national institution, among other initiatives, to boost its semiconductor industry.

    “The rumors I’ve heard is [it may arrive] any day now,” Chris Ballance, co-founder of U.K. quantum computing startup Oxford Ionics, told CNBC. However, he added the process had been “going on for the last four or five months.”
    Anything that requires diverting today's (and sadly tomorrow's) money away from old people is simply not going to get funded. The UK government now exists to shovel tax to them via pensions and healthcare, everything else is expendable, including education, industrial spending and eventually even defence spending.
    One trick pony Max, especially given you could buy and sell multiple pensioners.
    Not many pensioners can afford £40 Taco's.
    Not many pensioners (or anyone else, frankly, but put that aside) EAT £40 tacos. But as a segment of society, pensioners are better able to afford £40 tacos than any other age group. If they wanted to spend their money on that.
    Do you have any evidence to support that supposition.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited February 2023
    Of course the other thing about UFO-gate is that it comes conveniently after that big report that came out last year which said that there were Things Flying Around We Cannot Explain.

    If one was to ascribe ulterior motives to the US military (and I for one would not dare make such an assertion) then you could argue that making a big hoo-hah about weather balloons and perhaps - conveniently - suggesting that they might be more sinister, following on from That Big Report would perhaps encourage more public support for funding of said military. Just as a fanciful suggestion.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    TimS said:

    Trying to think what the most interesting outcome of this whole balloon thing would be. The options so far being China and America sending spy vehicles at each other (boring), aliens (unlikely), or something innocent and overblown like weather balloons.

    The more fun outcomes might be something like:

    - These turn out to be surveillance craft sent up by a mad genius or private organisation that's been quietly plotting to a. zap people with lethal brainwaves then rule the world, or b. steal valuable technological secrets to make money
    - A small country not otherwise known to be a geopolitical menace has decided to enter the espionage game. Say Tonga (quite convenient Pacific location), Guernsey or Uruguay.
    - Someone with a huge amount of money is doing an excellent prank following a dare by his mates

    There is a James Bond villain type scenario, isn't there. I'm trying to picture which one ; Dr No was always the best performance, but this would be a more like the '80s Bond, with the airships, silicon valley and Grace Jones.
    Yes, this one calls for Roger Moore.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,078
    edited February 2023
    On topic. I am hearing quite a few interesting rumours concerning several currently Tory seats where the Lib Dems are doing very well locally and yet which the polls do not show them taking nationally. It could be that the voters are still not moving, but equally it could be the pollsters are not picking up how effective Davey´s party can be on the ground.

    I am thinking that come May we could see some big wins from the Yellows, and that, reminded of their existence, the voters may give them a stronger hearing. So what does the PB Hivemind think could be the upper or lower limits if the blues are seeing a big switch to the Lib Dems in wealthy, Remain positive, well educated seats?

    Also, if the SNP tide is indeed now ebbing, where do their voters switch to? Could Lib Dems come through the middle to recover their former Highland and North East Scotland redoubt?
  • Nigelb said:

    Its funny that people are bemoaning a lack of multibillion investments and just a few days/weeks ago the news was dominated by the oil and gas industry - an industry that manages multibillion investments routinely - and that sector was being bemoaned for not paying enough taxes apparently. Certainly not celebrated for making investments.

    Having the right investment structure in place can be done by means other than writing a blank cheque.

    What's being talked about is hundreds of millions, not billions.
    No one thinks we can match the resources of the EU or US.
    Rather sidestepping Bart's point about the double standards on display.
  • My first Zoom meeting in zooming ages. All participants saying they've had connection problems. Something which Teams is increasingly free of...
  • algarkirk said:

    Is Scotland similar to Scandinavian nations? SNP voters certainly think so...

    🇳🇴,🇩🇰, 🇸🇪 ,🇮🇸 , 🇫🇮: 52-61% SNP say similar
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿: 31%

    ...but voters for the major unionist parties disagree

    🇳🇴,🇩🇰, 🇸🇪 ,🇮🇸 , 🇫🇮: 22-31% of Scot Con/Lab/LD say similar
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿: 69%


    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2023/02/13/scotland-similar-scandinavian-nations


    I suppose the thought of confirmation bias can be excluded? And why isn't there a 'North Korea' comparison? One party state; trade barrier with closest neighbour; our beloved leader.....

    This is just support anyone but England idiocy. My guess is if you asked if Scotland was more similar in land mass to England or Russia you'd get an SNP majority for Russia
  • TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Trying to think what the most interesting outcome of this whole balloon thing would be. The options so far being China and America sending spy vehicles at each other (boring), aliens (unlikely), or something innocent and overblown like weather balloons.

    The more fun outcomes might be something like:

    - These turn out to be surveillance craft sent up by a mad genius or private organisation that's been quietly plotting to a. zap people with lethal brainwaves then rule the world, or b. steal valuable technological secrets to make money
    - A small country not otherwise known to be a geopolitical menace has decided to enter the espionage game. Say Tonga (quite convenient Pacific location), Guernsey or Uruguay.
    - Someone with a huge amount of money is doing an excellent prank following a dare by his mates

    There is a James Bond villain type scenario, isn't there. I'm trying to picture which one ; Dr No was always the best performance, but this would be a more like the '80s Bond, with the airships, silicon valley and Grace Jones.
    Yes, this one calls for Roger Moore.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp4CR2HcHLQ
  • Always right Leon

    Amazed the poo-flinging, beauty-hating, hymn-booing Scousers have embarrassed themselves again. Amazed

    and later on

    Must be a serious chance they call off the whole game. Idiot Liverpool twits
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Jon Tester is leading against all potential Republican nominees for Senate in 2024. That is massive for Democratic chances for keeping the chamber. It is a presidential year too, which helps Dem turnout.

    If Sinema is also replaced by Gallego, there could be a filibuster-scrapping majority. Combined with a Dem House, that could mean statehood for DC and Puerto Rico, plus the passing of a new voter rights act that bans gerrymandering.
  • The Führersonderzug

    Putin started using an armored train

    All because the plane can be easily tracked, but the train is not. The train travels at maximum speed and without stops. The train has a bedroom and office, as well as separate railcars for security escorts and special communications.
    1/3


    https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1625166858776199174
  • Always right Leon

    Amazed the poo-flinging, beauty-hating, hymn-booing Scousers have embarrassed themselves again. Amazed

    and later on

    Must be a serious chance they call off the whole game. Idiot Liverpool twits

    It's a fair Kop!
  • Always right Leon

    Amazed the poo-flinging, beauty-hating, hymn-booing Scousers have embarrassed themselves again. Amazed

    and later on

    Must be a serious chance they call off the whole game. Idiot Liverpool twits

    This is the guy who wants us to take him seriously when he talks about anything.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    Cicero said:

    On topic. I am hearing quite a few interesting rumours concerning several currently Tory seats where the Lib Dems are doing very well locally and yet which the polls do not show them taking nationally. It could be that the voters are still not moving, but equally it could be the pollsters are not picking up how effective Davey´s party can be on the ground.

    I am thinking that come May we could see some big wins from the Yellows, and that, reminded of their existence, the voters may give them a stronger hearing. So what does the PB Hivemind think could be the upper or lower limits if the blues are seeing a big switch to the Lib Dems in wealthy, Remain positive, well educated seats?

    Also, if the SNP tide is indeed now ebbing, where do their voters switch to? Could Lib Dems come through the middle to recover their former Highland and North East Scotland redoubt?

    The Libs used to be in favour of greater devolution; IIRC to at least where we are now, whereas Labour were at best lukewarm and the Conservatives against.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660

    The Führersonderzug

    Putin started using an armored train

    All because the plane can be easily tracked, but the train is not. The train travels at maximum speed and without stops. The train has a bedroom and office, as well as separate railcars for security escorts and special communications.
    1/3


    https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1625166858776199174

    And doesn't fall from the sky.

    https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/russian-presidential-mi-8-helicopter-crashes-in-moscow
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,148
    edited February 2023
    Re; Sunil's link, I always thought that last Roger Moore film was a bit underrated. Alright, old Rog was getting a bit old, but it captured, somehow, that 'eighties zeitgeist more than the rest of those '80s Bond films, and had a great theme tune, too.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    WillG said:

    Jon Tester is leading against all potential Republican nominees for Senate in 2024. That is massive for Democratic chances for keeping the chamber. It is a presidential year too, which helps Dem turnout.

    If Sinema is also replaced by Gallego, there could be a filibuster-scrapping majority. Combined with a Dem House, that could mean statehood for DC and Puerto Rico, plus the passing of a new voter rights act that bans gerrymandering.

    Well, the House won't vote to ban gerrymandering. Especially the dozen Dems who would lose seats in white majority states under race-blind maps.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    EPG said:

    WillG said:

    Jon Tester is leading against all potential Republican nominees for Senate in 2024. That is massive for Democratic chances for keeping the chamber. It is a presidential year too, which helps Dem turnout.

    If Sinema is also replaced by Gallego, there could be a filibuster-scrapping majority. Combined with a Dem House, that could mean statehood for DC and Puerto Rico, plus the passing of a new voter rights act that bans gerrymandering.

    Well, the House won't vote to ban gerrymandering. Especially the dozen Dems who would lose seats in white majority states under race-blind maps.
    The House has already voted to ban gerrymandering and would do again.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,394
    edited February 2023

    Oh dear…..


    One rather naive colleague of mine said, at the end of a very productive meeting, 'I'm lucky to have such a great bunch of tools as you to make this all work.'

    Explaining why everyone stared at him was - interesting...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,394

    Nigelb said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Years ago, I had to write a procurement business case to download a font (seriously).

    Downloading it is cheaper than using a courier.
    You're avenir laugh.
    A bold statement.
    Is it justified ?
    This thread is full of wing dings.
    Well, it's not comic sans so much as sans comic.
This discussion has been closed.