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LAB’s set to win most seats but is not in majority territory – politicalbetting.com

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  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited December 2022
    Cashed out my bet on more than 4 goals.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,792
    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    I think that @Cyclefree is correct that there is no good reason to vote Conservative now, other than to deny Labour a large majority. This government is completely useless, from the point of view of both Conservatives and floating voters.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,700
    edited December 2022
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Like I said: cultural suicide. Everything is attacked from within and without. What the Woke can’t close they will give away

    You can argue the Elgin Marbles are Sui generis. But of course the demands for repatriation won’t stop here. Once you establish the principle then everything becomes liable for “restitution”
    Not so Byronic anymore
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,661
    edited December 2022
    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    So, basically, a whole bunch of UK people are now getting Freedom of Movement back, thanks to remote working. Portugal has also brought in a digital nomad visa. So has Greece

    Who needs the Single Market? I could move to Seville tomorrow

    An English colleague in my office works on UK campaigns while living in Portugal; another lives in Italy. They pop over now and then for meetings and it works pretty well. Less drastically, two of my key team members live in Scotland, which is still a long way from Surrey, and that's fine too.

    It's possible that wfh will do more for levelling up, as people move to live in cheaper areas, than Government dictats to move a Department to South Shields ever would.
    It's not proving terribly popular with the people from the poor areas who are priced out and have to move to even poorer areas.
    But they are BrexitVotingGammonShitScumRacists - the fact that they refuse to embrace being priced out of their towns and sent over the hill to the estates (see Malmesbury in Wiltshire) proves it.
    Immigration made up only a relatively small component of house price inflation. By far the bigger (demand side) pushes were low inflation rates and the tendency to live in smaller households.
    This just isn't plausible. The biggest driver in demand for housing is population growth, of which 75% is driven by immigration.
    But not household formation.
    And add interest rates, which was the biggest factor.

    And then you have supply side issues, although I leave those out because you might argue that we wouldn’t need supply without the extra demand.
    There hasn't been THAT much change in household sizes. And as for interest rates, that has also been caused by immigration. The mass migration from New Labour opening the flood gates caused complete stagnation of wage rates among the bottom half of the population. That kept inflation low and meant the Bank didn't have to increase interest rates much during the economic boom.
    Interest rates were low globally.
    You are 100% wrong.
    Because the US was doing the same policy. Mass immigration allowing central bank rates to be kept low, creating a glut of debt which flooded international markets.
    Surely the reason that interest rates plummeted in 2008-9 and stayed low was because of the collapses and lack of liquidity from the GFC? Immigration was high beforehand and afterwards, and still high now with higher interest rates.

    What happened was one of the periodic crises of capitalism, in which financial instruments were used to bale out asset holders, whether investors in markets or homeowners.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749
    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    Foxy said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    So, basically, a whole bunch of UK people are now getting Freedom of Movement back, thanks to remote working. Portugal has also brought in a digital nomad visa. So has Greece

    Who needs the Single Market? I could move to Seville tomorrow

    An English colleague in my office works on UK campaigns while living in Portugal; another lives in Italy. They pop over now and then for meetings and it works pretty well. Less drastically, two of my key team members live in Scotland, which is still a long way from Surrey, and that's fine too.

    It's possible that wfh will do more for levelling up, as people move to live in cheaper areas, than Government dictats to move a Department to South Shields ever would.
    It's not proving terribly popular with the people from the poor areas who are priced out and have to move to even poorer areas.
    But they are BrexitVotingGammonShitScumRacists - the fact that they refuse to embrace being priced out of their towns and sent over the hill to the estates (see Malmesbury in Wiltshire) proves it.
    Immigration made up only a relatively small component of house price inflation. By far the bigger (demand side) pushes were low inflation rates and the tendency to live in smaller households.
    This just isn't plausible. The biggest driver in demand for housing is population growth, of which 75% is driven by immigration.
    But not household formation.
    And add interest rates, which was the biggest factor.

    And then you have supply side issues, although I leave those out because you might argue that we wouldn’t need supply without the extra demand.
    There hasn't been THAT much change in household sizes. And as for interest rates, that has also been caused by immigration. The mass migration from New Labour opening the flood gates caused complete stagnation of wage rates among the bottom half of the population. That kept inflation low and meant the Bank didn't have to increase interest rates much during the economic boom.
    Interest rates were low globally.
    You are 100% wrong.
    Because the US was doing the same policy. Mass immigration allowing central bank rates to be kept low, creating a glut of debt which flooded international markets.
    Surely the reason that interest rates plummeted in 2008-9 and stayed low was because of the collapses and lack of liquidity from the GFC? Immigration was high beforehand and afterwards, and still high now with higher interest rates.

    What happened was one of the periodic crises of capitalism, in which financial instruments were used to bale out asset holders, whether investors in markets or homeowners.
    Interest rates being kept artificially low in the decade before 2008-09 was one of the causes of the crisis.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,661
    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Yes, what a flop the Metaverse is! Has any other event drawn a bigger crowd there?
  • Andy_JS said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    "In 1971, the proportion of Londoners who were “White British” was 86.2 percent. Fifty years later, it’s 36.8 percent. That’s not a population change; it’s an entire paradigm shift."
    It is indeed an entire paradigm shift.

    Sullivan rightly notes that, but is ambivalent on what should be welcomed and what might be mourned.

    Personally I was a migrant to London and indeed, by some definitions, mixed race.

    Complicated thing, modernity.
    The best book, to be reassured about this, is Whiteshift by Eric Kaufmann.

    It basically makes clear that migrants adopt British cultures and traditions in time, provided they largely marry "in house", and eventually (c.100 years) mixed race will be the majority ethnicity and not any other.

    It will be a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raducanus.

    (Also, their politics will approach the mean of the majority white British population as they grow so those on the Left who assume they will be allies for cultural Marxism have got it dead wrong.)
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    rcs1000 said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    So, basically, a whole bunch of UK people are now getting Freedom of Movement back, thanks to remote working. Portugal has also brought in a digital nomad visa. So has Greece

    Who needs the Single Market? I could move to Seville tomorrow

    An English colleague in my office works on UK campaigns while living in Portugal; another lives in Italy. They pop over now and then for meetings and it works pretty well. Less drastically, two of my key team members live in Scotland, which is still a long way from Surrey, and that's fine too.

    It's possible that wfh will do more for levelling up, as people move to live in cheaper areas, than Government dictats to move a Department to South Shields ever would.
    It's not proving terribly popular with the people from the poor areas who are priced out and have to move to even poorer areas.
    But they are BrexitVotingGammonShitScumRacists - the fact that they refuse to embrace being priced out of their towns and sent over the hill to the estates (see Malmesbury in Wiltshire) proves it.
    Immigration made up only a relatively small component of house price inflation. By far the bigger (demand side) pushes were low inflation rates and the tendency to live in smaller households.
    This just isn't plausible. The biggest driver in demand for housing is population growth, of which 75% is driven by immigration.
    But not household formation.
    And add interest rates, which was the biggest factor.

    And then you have supply side issues, although I leave those out because you might argue that we wouldn’t need supply without the extra demand.
    There hasn't been THAT much change in household sizes. And as for interest rates, that has also been caused by immigration. The mass migration from New Labour opening the flood gates caused complete stagnation of wage rates among the bottom half of the population. That kept inflation low and meant the Bank didn't have to increase interest rates much during the economic boom.
    Interest rates were low globally.
    You are 100% wrong.
    Because the US was doing the same policy. Mass immigration allowing central bank rates to be kept low, creating a glut of debt which flooded international markets.
    Is there a correlation between interest rates and immigration levels?

    It's always tricky to disentangle simple correlations in economics because of how many moving factors there are, how interconnected modern economies are, and how difficult it is to do run experiments. But we can check the individual effects in the chain. Low skilled immigration keeps down blue collar wages. Low wage growth keeps interest rates down.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,700
    We ARE a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raduacanus.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Netherlands now in to 15/1 for the cup. 18/1 was indeed VALUE
  • Romeo Brown.

    A very easy £100 - available at 65/1 with only four fences to go as the leader.

    Only stuck on £2 each way.

    A fine front won hurdle winner. Bottom in weights. Silly price. Great call.

    RP. Romeo Brown Three wins for this yard, latest two from the front; well held in October; tall order
    SL In excellent form during the spring, well ridden when adding to his tally at Haydock (3m) in May and matched that on back of 5 months off when third at Wetherby (2m) in October. Rare poor effort faced with testing ground at Carlisle since.

    A great afternoon of racing to watch. Edwardstone now the stand out 2m chaser? We still have to see Energumene this season.
    If its any consolidation I followed your initial tip until he fell out.

    Then, I couldn't understand why Romeo Brown was so long for so long - I assume everyone thought he'd get very tired and overtaken in the last furlong (and to be fair, so did i) but I saw 65/1 as big value so stuck on £2 E/W.

    I was then astonished to see it actually happening and, of course, then I wish I'd stuck on the full £20 I had in my account.s
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Andy_JS said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    "In 1971, the proportion of Londoners who were “White British” was 86.2 percent. Fifty years later, it’s 36.8 percent. That’s not a population change; it’s an entire paradigm shift."
    It is indeed an entire paradigm shift.

    Sullivan rightly notes that, but is ambivalent on what should be welcomed and what might be mourned.

    Personally I was a migrant to London and indeed, by some definitions, mixed race.

    Complicated thing, modernity.
    The best book, to be reassured about this, is Whiteshift by Eric Kaufmann.

    It basically makes clear that migrants adopt British cultures and traditions in time, provided they largely marry "in house", and eventually (c.100 years) mixed race will be the majority ethnicity and not any other.

    It will be a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raducanus.

    (Also, their politics will approach the mean of the majority white British population as they grow so those on the Left who assume they will be allies for cultural Marxism have got it dead wrong.)
    This is only the case if the integration happens faster than the immigration. That depends on the type of immigrants and the volume of immigration.
  • Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    Good piece. Nice elegiac tone

    Britain might be the first nation to voluntarily commit cultural, political and demographic suicide

    The rest of the West ain’t far behind, tho
    Maybe it'll mean PM Farage in a few years' time.
    You’d think so, but the young are absolutely brainwashed into Wokeness. Whiteness is shameful and Britishness is a sin

    I don’t see much hope. Sadly
    Wrong on all statements, but that is Leonadamus for you.
    I don’t agree with his statements, but the Wellcome Collection affair and the contretemps over Lady Hussey both make the UK look daft.
    I take the view that self-regard is not half a sin as self-hatred.

    Unfortunately, a lot of people in authority feel the need to apologise for things done by people long dead to people long dead.
    They'd rather do that and hoover up the plaudits than take responsibility for their own failings and do something about it.

    Maybe future generations of politicians will apologise for them instead.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    A decision on the Cumbria coal mine is due in 5 days.
    https://www.edie.net/decision-on-cumbria-coal-mine-pushed-back-for-a-third-time/

    To recap, this would produce coking coal that we need for the strategically vital steel industry. We already import this coal, so mining it domestically would reduce emissions, as well as creating jobs and all the other benefits.

    I don't like to be negative, but I will be shocked if the Government goes ahead. But for any sort of Conservative Government - even a green one, this is a no brainer. Actually for any responsible government of any colour.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    Pah! Facts eh?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    I think that @Cyclefree is correct that there is no good reason to vote Conservative now, other than to deny Labour a large majority. This government is completely useless, from the point of view of both Conservatives and floating voters.
    I fear Sean that you will find the next Labour government is worse. They were convinced that windfall taxes was the way to go. In fact more taxes is almost always the way to go. The government is so much better at spending our money than we are, obvs.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    Good piece. Nice elegiac tone

    Britain might be the first nation to voluntarily commit cultural, political and demographic suicide

    The rest of the West ain’t far behind, tho
    Maybe it'll mean PM Farage in a few years' time.
    You’d think so, but the young are absolutely brainwashed into Wokeness. Whiteness is shameful and Britishness is a sin

    I don’t see much hope. Sadly
    Wrong on all statements, but that is Leonadamus for you.
    I don’t agree with his statements, but the Wellcome Collection affair and the contretemps over Lady Hussey both make the UK look daft.
    I take the view that self-regard is not half a sin as self-hatred.

    Unfortunately, a lot of people in authority feel the need to apologise for things done by people long dead to people long dead.
    They'd rather do that and hoover up the plaudits than take responsibility for their own failings and do something about it.

    Maybe future generations of politicians will apologise for them instead.
    As far as their own sins are concerned it's "lessons will be learned", and "I'm sorry if you were offended."
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,661

    Andy_JS said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    "In 1971, the proportion of Londoners who were “White British” was 86.2 percent. Fifty years later, it’s 36.8 percent. That’s not a population change; it’s an entire paradigm shift."
    It is indeed an entire paradigm shift.

    Sullivan rightly notes that, but is ambivalent on what should be welcomed and what might be mourned.

    Personally I was a migrant to London and indeed, by some definitions, mixed race.

    Complicated thing, modernity.
    The best book, to be reassured about this, is Whiteshift by Eric Kaufmann.

    It basically makes clear that migrants adopt British cultures and traditions in time, provided they largely marry "in house", and eventually (c.100 years) mixed race will be the majority ethnicity and not any other.

    It will be a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raducanus.

    (Also, their politics will approach the mean of the majority white British population as they grow so those on the Left who assume they will be allies for cultural Marxism have got it dead wrong.)
    I agree on that, but worth noting that the mean of the White British populations politics may well shift too, as it has many times over the last 100 years.

    Many things are taken as normal now that would have seemed insanely radical 100 years ago, such as Gay marriage, racial equality and disbanding the Empire, and things considered normal then such as the death penalty or workhouses would be considered radical now.
  • Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    Good piece. Nice elegiac tone

    Britain might be the first nation to voluntarily commit cultural, political and demographic suicide

    The rest of the West ain’t far behind, tho
    Maybe it'll mean PM Farage in a few years' time.
    You’d think so, but the young are absolutely brainwashed into Wokeness. Whiteness is shameful and Britishness is a sin

    I don’t see much hope. Sadly
    Wrong on all statements, but that is Leonadamus for you.
    I don’t agree with his statements, but the Wellcome Collection affair and the contretemps over Lady Hussey both make the UK look daft.
    I think you massively overestimate how much such things cut through.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    Netherlands go thru
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    I think that @Cyclefree is correct that there is no good reason to vote Conservative now, other than to deny Labour a large majority. This government is completely useless, from the point of view of both Conservatives and floating voters.
    I fear Sean that you will find the next Labour government is worse. They were convinced that windfall taxes was the way to go. In fact more taxes is almost always the way to go. The government is so much better at spending our money than we are, obvs.
    Sure, it's a choice between bad and worse.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Tres said:

    We ARE a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raduacanus.

    We are also a country where 900 British citizens joined ISIS and a million want sharia law.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    A decision on the Cumbria coal mine is due in 5 days.
    https://www.edie.net/decision-on-cumbria-coal-mine-pushed-back-for-a-third-time/

    To recap, this would produce coking coal that we need for the strategically vital steel industry. We already import this coal, so mining it domestically would reduce emissions, as well as creating jobs and all the other benefits.

    I don't like to be negative, but I will be shocked if the Government goes ahead. But for any sort of Conservative Government - even a green one, this is a no brainer. Actually for any responsible government of any colour.
    Agreed. It really isn't open to any sensible discussion. The only way the coke does not get burnt is if our steel industry completely collapses, rapidly followed by the car industry. If it is going to get burnt why on earth would it not be sensible for it to be British sourced?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    edited December 2022
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    "In 1971, the proportion of Londoners who were “White British” was 86.2 percent. Fifty years later, it’s 36.8 percent. That’s not a population change; it’s an entire paradigm shift."
    It is indeed an entire paradigm shift.

    Sullivan rightly notes that, but is ambivalent on what should be welcomed and what might be mourned.

    Personally I was a migrant to London and indeed, by some definitions, mixed race.

    Complicated thing, modernity.
    The best book, to be reassured about this, is Whiteshift by Eric Kaufmann.

    It basically makes clear that migrants adopt British cultures and traditions in time, provided they largely marry "in house", and eventually (c.100 years) mixed race will be the majority ethnicity and not any other.

    It will be a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raducanus.

    (Also, their politics will approach the mean of the majority white British population as they grow so those on the Left who assume they will be allies for cultural Marxism have got it dead wrong.)
    I agree on that, but worth noting that the mean of the White British populations politics may well shift too, as it has many times over the last 100 years.

    Many things are taken as normal now that would have seemed insanely radical 100 years ago, such as Gay marriage, racial equality and disbanding the Empire, and things considered normal then such as the death penalty or workhouses would be considered radical now.
    The death penalty has majority support in most opinion polls, so perhaps not so radical. It's the elite consensus that shifted, but that might prove unstable in the future.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Like I said: cultural suicide. Everything is attacked from within and without. What the Woke can’t close they will give away

    You can argue the Elgin Marbles are Sui generis. But of course the demands for repatriation won’t stop here. Once you establish the principle then everything becomes liable for “restitution”
    Not so Byronic anymore
    Indeed.

    Cold is the heart, fair Greece, that looks on thee,
    Nor feels as lovers oer the dust they loved;
    Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
    Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
    By British hands, which it had best behovd
    To guard those relics neer to be restored.
    Curst be the hour when their isle they roved,
    And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
    And snatchd thy shrinking Gods to northern climes abhorrd!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Clearing out junk in the cellar, just came across a few bottles of Chateau Montrose 1985.
    But disappointing, as Covid has destroyed my ability to taste any complex wine at all.

    Am I missing much ?
    (Will probably give them away for Christmas.)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    rcs1000 said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    So, basically, a whole bunch of UK people are now getting Freedom of Movement back, thanks to remote working. Portugal has also brought in a digital nomad visa. So has Greece

    Who needs the Single Market? I could move to Seville tomorrow

    An English colleague in my office works on UK campaigns while living in Portugal; another lives in Italy. They pop over now and then for meetings and it works pretty well. Less drastically, two of my key team members live in Scotland, which is still a long way from Surrey, and that's fine too.

    It's possible that wfh will do more for levelling up, as people move to live in cheaper areas, than Government dictats to move a Department to South Shields ever would.
    It's not proving terribly popular with the people from the poor areas who are priced out and have to move to even poorer areas.
    But they are BrexitVotingGammonShitScumRacists - the fact that they refuse to embrace being priced out of their towns and sent over the hill to the estates (see Malmesbury in Wiltshire) proves it.
    Immigration made up only a relatively small component of house price inflation. By far the bigger (demand side) pushes were low inflation rates and the tendency to live in smaller households.
    This just isn't plausible. The biggest driver in demand for housing is population growth, of which 75% is driven by immigration.
    But not household formation.
    And add interest rates, which was the biggest factor.

    And then you have supply side issues, although I leave those out because you might argue that we wouldn’t need supply without the extra demand.
    There hasn't been THAT much change in household sizes. And as for interest rates, that has also been caused by immigration. The mass migration from New Labour opening the flood gates caused complete stagnation of wage rates among the bottom half of the population. That kept inflation low and meant the Bank didn't have to increase interest rates much during the economic boom.
    Interest rates were low globally.
    You are 100% wrong.
    Because the US was doing the same policy. Mass immigration allowing central bank rates to be kept low, creating a glut of debt which flooded international markets.
    Is there a correlation between interest rates and immigration levels?

    WillG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    So, basically, a whole bunch of UK people are now getting Freedom of Movement back, thanks to remote working. Portugal has also brought in a digital nomad visa. So has Greece

    Who needs the Single Market? I could move to Seville tomorrow

    An English colleague in my office works on UK campaigns while living in Portugal; another lives in Italy. They pop over now and then for meetings and it works pretty well. Less drastically, two of my key team members live in Scotland, which is still a long way from Surrey, and that's fine too.

    It's possible that wfh will do more for levelling up, as people move to live in cheaper areas, than Government dictats to move a Department to South Shields ever would.
    It's not proving terribly popular with the people from the poor areas who are priced out and have to move to even poorer areas.
    But they are BrexitVotingGammonShitScumRacists - the fact that they refuse to embrace being priced out of their towns and sent over the hill to the estates (see Malmesbury in Wiltshire) proves it.
    Immigration made up only a relatively small component of house price inflation. By far the bigger (demand side) pushes were low inflation rates and the tendency to live in smaller households.
    This just isn't plausible. The biggest driver in demand for housing is population growth, of which 75% is driven by immigration.
    But not household formation.
    And add interest rates, which was the biggest factor.

    And then you have supply side issues, although I leave those out because you might argue that we wouldn’t need supply without the extra demand.
    There hasn't been THAT much change in household sizes. And as for interest rates, that has also been caused by immigration. The mass migration from New Labour opening the flood gates caused complete stagnation of wage rates among the bottom half of the population. That kept inflation low and meant the Bank didn't have to increase interest rates much during the economic boom.
    Interest rates were low globally.
    You are 100% wrong.
    Because the US was doing the same policy. Mass immigration allowing central bank rates to be kept low, creating a glut of debt which flooded international markets.
    Is there a correlation between interest rates and immigration levels?

    It's always tricky to disentangle simple correlations in economics because of how many moving factors there are, how interconnected modern economies are, and how difficult it is to do run experiments. But we can check the individual effects in the chain. Low skilled immigration keeps down blue collar wages. Low wage growth keeps interest rates down.
    It’s especially tricky when you just make stuff up for reasons unknown.
  • DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    A decision on the Cumbria coal mine is due in 5 days.
    https://www.edie.net/decision-on-cumbria-coal-mine-pushed-back-for-a-third-time/

    To recap, this would produce coking coal that we need for the strategically vital steel industry. We already import this coal, so mining it domestically would reduce emissions, as well as creating jobs and all the other benefits.

    I don't like to be negative, but I will be shocked if the Government goes ahead. But for any sort of Conservative Government - even a green one, this is a no brainer. Actually for any responsible government of any colour.
    Coking coal is last year's tech. Hydrogen direct reduction is the new kid on the block. The first pilot plants are already running and several large demonstration plants are planned to come online before 2030. Your assessment is dated.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    edited December 2022

    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    A decision on the Cumbria coal mine is due in 5 days.
    https://www.edie.net/decision-on-cumbria-coal-mine-pushed-back-for-a-third-time/

    To recap, this would produce coking coal that we need for the strategically vital steel industry. We already import this coal, so mining it domestically would reduce emissions, as well as creating jobs and all the other benefits.

    I don't like to be negative, but I will be shocked if the Government goes ahead. But for any sort of Conservative Government - even a green one, this is a no brainer. Actually for any responsible government of any colour.
    Coking coal is last year's tech. Hydrogen direct reduction is the new kid on the block. The first pilot plants are already running and several large demonstration plants are planned to come online before 2030. Your assessment is dated.
    And your critique is meaningless.

    Of course there are new technologies. 'Demonstration plants' in 2030' means the technology isn't likely to be widely available for a good 15 years of burning foreign coal, if it ever emerges at all.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Nigelb said:

    Clearing out junk in the cellar, just came across a few bottles of Chateau Montrose 1985.
    But disappointing, as Covid has destroyed my ability to taste any complex wine at all.

    Am I missing much ?
    (Will probably give them away for Christmas.)

    That’s an unpleasant covid consequence. Sympathies
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    We could have put on a superb Festival of Brexit with that money.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,700
    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2022/12/01/uk-brexit-festival-cost-120m-but-generated-only-78m/

    'The UK's 'Brexit festival' has cost the taxpayer £120 million ($144 million) while delivering unknown financial benefits after an extended deadline was set to meet benchmarks under projections made by government officials.

    The Unboxed series of art events held across the country this year was investigated by the National Audit Office (NAO) after concerns were raised by parliamentarians it had only attracted 2.8 million live visitors to events.

    On Thursday, the NAO released its report into the event and revealed that by November 2022, 18.1 million people had engaged with the festival overall -- a figure made up of 2.8 million attending live events, 13.6 million engaged with the festival’s broadcast and digital content, plus 1.7 million children and families taking part in festival learning activities.'
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    Romeo Brown.

    A very easy £100 - available at 65/1 with only four fences to go as the leader.

    Only stuck on £2 each way.

    A fine front won hurdle winner. Bottom in weights. Silly price. Great call.

    RP. Romeo Brown Three wins for this yard, latest two from the front; well held in October; tall order
    SL In excellent form during the spring, well ridden when adding to his tally at Haydock (3m) in May and matched that on back of 5 months off when third at Wetherby (2m) in October. Rare poor effort faced with testing ground at Carlisle since.

    A great afternoon of racing to watch. Edwardstone now the stand out 2m chaser? We still have to see Energumene this season.
    If its any consolidation I followed your initial tip until he fell out.

    Then, I couldn't understand why Romeo Brown was so long for so long - I assume everyone thought he'd get very tired and overtaken in the last furlong (and to be fair, so did i) but I saw 65/1 as big value so stuck on £2 E/W.

    I was then astonished to see it actually happening and, of course, then I wish I'd stuck on the full £20 I had in my account.s
    It’s no consolation. It just embarrasses me. I havn’t tipped a winner for weeks 🤦‍♀️
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,661
    WillG said:

    Tres said:

    We ARE a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raduacanus.

    We are also a country where 900 British citizens joined ISIS and a million want sharia law.
    That too is a fine old British tradition. 75 years ago many Britons joined the Stalinist Communist party. A decade or so earlier some of our newspapers and King were openly pro-fascist and pro-Nazi.

    In the 1780's there was considerable support for the French and American revolutions, as seen with people like Thomas Paine. In the 1650s we executed our Monarch and ceased to be a Monarchy. Another 50 and 150 years earlier many Britons were plotting and hoping for the overthrow of Protestantism in Britain.

    There are further instances in our history, but treasonous plots are only so when they fail, otherwise they are social and political advances.





  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    We could have put on a superb Festival of Brexit with that money.
    Perhaps that's where all the Meta using kiddies were. The Brexit concert headlined by The Wurzles, compered by an avatar Jim Davidson.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    We could have put on a superb Festival of Brexit with that money.
    Tres said:

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2022/12/01/uk-brexit-festival-cost-120m-but-generated-only-78m/

    'The UK's 'Brexit festival' has cost the taxpayer £120 million ($144 million) while delivering unknown financial benefits after an extended deadline was set to meet benchmarks under projections made by government officials.

    The Unboxed series of art events held across the country this year was investigated by the National Audit Office (NAO) after concerns were raised by parliamentarians it had only attracted 2.8 million live visitors to events.

    On Thursday, the NAO released its report into the event and revealed that by November 2022, 18.1 million people had engaged with the festival overall -- a figure made up of 2.8 million attending live events, 13.6 million engaged with the festival’s broadcast and digital content, plus 1.7 million children and families taking part in festival learning activities.'
    Those responsible for this incompetence will be kicked out of office in 2 years at the election. Who will be responsible for the EU debacle?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    So, basically, a whole bunch of UK people are now getting Freedom of Movement back, thanks to remote working. Portugal has also brought in a digital nomad visa. So has Greece

    Who needs the Single Market? I could move to Seville tomorrow

    An English colleague in my office works on UK campaigns while living in Portugal; another lives in Italy. They pop over now and then for meetings and it works pretty well. Less drastically, two of my key team members live in Scotland, which is still a long way from Surrey, and that's fine too.

    It's possible that wfh will do more for levelling up, as people move to live in cheaper areas, than Government dictats to move a Department to South Shields ever would.
    It's not proving terribly popular with the people from the poor areas who are priced out and have to move to even poorer areas.
    But they are BrexitVotingGammonShitScumRacists - the fact that they refuse to embrace being priced out of their towns and sent over the hill to the estates (see Malmesbury in Wiltshire) proves it.
    Immigration made up only a relatively small component of house price inflation. By far the bigger (demand side) pushes were low inflation rates and the tendency to live in smaller households.
    This just isn't plausible. The biggest driver in demand for housing is population growth, of which 75% is driven by immigration.
    But not household formation.
    And add interest rates, which was the biggest factor.

    And then you have supply side issues, although I leave those out because you might argue that we wouldn’t need supply without the extra demand.
    There hasn't been THAT much change in household sizes. And as for interest rates, that has also been caused by immigration. The mass migration from New Labour opening the flood gates caused complete stagnation of wage rates among the bottom half of the population. That kept inflation low and meant the Bank didn't have to increase interest rates much during the economic boom.
    Interest rates were low globally.
    You are 100% wrong.
    Was it housing supply could not meet demand is the question. Certainly the first part of the equation there can be no arguing over - years of excessive QE under Labour and other governments increased the amount of money in the economy, and banks could lend more cheaply, mortgages were cheaper, but this coupled with housing supply not easily expanded pushed cost of housing upward.

    Why was housing supply not so easily expanded to meet demand? this is the question to argue over.
    I’ll answer my own question.

    if you are going to argue there is a housing crisis, not enough supply for demand, immigration etc, please note the statistic of how many lie empty. A key part of the problem is affordability - the cost of housing - you can’t build them if people can’t afford them, you can’t bring down the cost by building more if you can’t fill how many you already have empty. add in high land values, as those who hold it want to cash in not cash out at wrong time, and add to that a cumbersome planning system.

    We are here because the system has been geared to high houses prices as investment. House owners generally like high house price and worry when they fall. For people with money, homes have been one of the most attractive forms of investment, even if they never intended living in them themselves. Investors in buy-to-let have reaped massive returns, gaining on average 1,400% since 1996 — four times more than equivalent investments in commercial property, government bonds or shares.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    We could have put on a superb Festival of Brexit with that money.
    Tres said:

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2022/12/01/uk-brexit-festival-cost-120m-but-generated-only-78m/

    'The UK's 'Brexit festival' has cost the taxpayer £120 million ($144 million) while delivering unknown financial benefits after an extended deadline was set to meet benchmarks under projections made by government officials.

    The Unboxed series of art events held across the country this year was investigated by the National Audit Office (NAO) after concerns were raised by parliamentarians it had only attracted 2.8 million live visitors to events.

    On Thursday, the NAO released its report into the event and revealed that by November 2022, 18.1 million people had engaged with the festival overall -- a figure made up of 2.8 million attending live events, 13.6 million engaged with the festival’s broadcast and digital content, plus 1.7 million children and families taking part in festival learning activities.'
    Those responsible for this incompetence will be kicked out of office in 2 years at the election. Who will be responsible for the EU debacle?
    Presumably whoever commissioned it.

    Your original point, which implied that the EU are inbuilt spendthrifts was fatuous, and you know it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    So, basically, a whole bunch of UK people are now getting Freedom of Movement back, thanks to remote working. Portugal has also brought in a digital nomad visa. So has Greece

    Who needs the Single Market? I could move to Seville tomorrow

    An English colleague in my office works on UK campaigns while living in Portugal; another lives in Italy. They pop over now and then for meetings and it works pretty well. Less drastically, two of my key team members live in Scotland, which is still a long way from Surrey, and that's fine too.

    It's possible that wfh will do more for levelling up, as people move to live in cheaper areas, than Government dictats to move a Department to South Shields ever would.
    It's not proving terribly popular with the people from the poor areas who are priced out and have to move to even poorer areas.
    But they are BrexitVotingGammonShitScumRacists - the fact that they refuse to embrace being priced out of their towns and sent over the hill to the estates (see Malmesbury in Wiltshire) proves it.
    Immigration made up only a relatively small component of house price inflation. By far the bigger (demand side) pushes were low inflation rates and the tendency to live in smaller households.
    This just isn't plausible. The biggest driver in demand for housing is population growth, of which 75% is driven by immigration.
    But not household formation.
    And add interest rates, which was the biggest factor.

    And then you have supply side issues, although I leave those out because you might argue that we wouldn’t need supply without the extra demand.
    There hasn't been THAT much change in household sizes. And as for interest rates, that has also been caused by immigration. The mass migration from New Labour opening the flood gates caused complete stagnation of wage rates among the bottom half of the population. That kept inflation low and meant the Bank didn't have to increase interest rates much during the economic boom.
    Interest rates were low globally.
    You are 100% wrong.
    Was it housing supply could not meet demand is the question. Certainly the first part of the equation there can be no arguing over - years of excessive QE under Labour and other governments increased the amount of money in the economy, and banks could lend more cheaply, mortgages were cheaper, but this coupled with housing supply not easily expanded pushed cost of housing upward.

    Why was housing supply not so easily expanded to meet demand? this is the question to argue over.
    This.

    In areas/countries that built houses on demand, house prices didn’t soar.

    The problem in the U.K. is that we have created a toxic house building culture - only the big builders can really work in the constrained market. Which creates local monopolies for whichever of the big boys is building the next estate. The savagely poor quality and terrible ergonomics of the houses and estates puts people off such things built near them. The queeze from land price and the requirements for density make it all worse. Councils see negative value in more people living in their areas - people cost more than the council tax and central grants brings in….
  • Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    "In 1971, the proportion of Londoners who were “White British” was 86.2 percent. Fifty years later, it’s 36.8 percent. That’s not a population change; it’s an entire paradigm shift."
    It is indeed an entire paradigm shift.

    Sullivan rightly notes that, but is ambivalent on what should be welcomed and what might be mourned.

    Personally I was a migrant to London and indeed, by some definitions, mixed race.

    Complicated thing, modernity.
    The best book, to be reassured about this, is Whiteshift by Eric Kaufmann.

    It basically makes clear that migrants adopt British cultures and traditions in time, provided they largely marry "in house", and eventually (c.100 years) mixed race will be the majority ethnicity and not any other.

    It will be a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raducanus.

    (Also, their politics will approach the mean of the majority white British population as they grow so those on the Left who assume they will be allies for cultural Marxism have got it dead wrong.)
    I agree on that, but worth noting that the mean of the White British populations politics may well shift too, as it has many times over the last 100 years.

    Many things are taken as normal now that would have seemed insanely radical 100 years ago, such as Gay marriage, racial equality and disbanding the Empire, and things considered normal then such as the death penalty or workhouses would be considered radical now.
    Yes, whatever the mean is (and where that ends up) ethnicity will eventually end up being relatively irrelevant to it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    edited December 2022
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
    A few years ago, the Hermitage put on an exhibition of art that Red Army soldiers had looted from Berlin, in 1945. It was really quite impressive.
  • Romeo Brown.

    A very easy £100 - available at 65/1 with only four fences to go as the leader.

    Only stuck on £2 each way.

    A fine front won hurdle winner. Bottom in weights. Silly price. Great call.

    RP. Romeo Brown Three wins for this yard, latest two from the front; well held in October; tall order
    SL In excellent form during the spring, well ridden when adding to his tally at Haydock (3m) in May and matched that on back of 5 months off when third at Wetherby (2m) in October. Rare poor effort faced with testing ground at Carlisle since.

    A great afternoon of racing to watch. Edwardstone now the stand out 2m chaser? We still have to see Energumene this season.
    If its any consolidation I followed your initial tip until he fell out.

    Then, I couldn't understand why Romeo Brown was so long for so long - I assume everyone thought he'd get very tired and overtaken in the last furlong (and to be fair, so did i) but I saw 65/1 as big value so stuck on £2 E/W.

    I was then astonished to see it actually happening and, of course, then I wish I'd stuck on the full £20 I had in my account.s
    It’s no consolation. It just embarrasses me. I havn’t tipped a winner for weeks 🤦‍♀️
    If it's any consolidation I don't really know what I'm doing with horse racing and usually have my arse handed to me on a plate.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176
  • Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
    It's a sign of a lack of self-confidence.

    Ironically, if everyone believed equally that Britain had a strong future - and were proud of what it stood for - it simply wouldn't happen.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,700
    edited December 2022
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    We could have put on a superb Festival of Brexit with that money.
    Tres said:

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2022/12/01/uk-brexit-festival-cost-120m-but-generated-only-78m/

    'The UK's 'Brexit festival' has cost the taxpayer £120 million ($144 million) while delivering unknown financial benefits after an extended deadline was set to meet benchmarks under projections made by government officials.

    The Unboxed series of art events held across the country this year was investigated by the National Audit Office (NAO) after concerns were raised by parliamentarians it had only attracted 2.8 million live visitors to events.

    On Thursday, the NAO released its report into the event and revealed that by November 2022, 18.1 million people had engaged with the festival overall -- a figure made up of 2.8 million attending live events, 13.6 million engaged with the festival’s broadcast and digital content, plus 1.7 million children and families taking part in festival learning activities.'
    Those responsible for this incompetence will be kicked out of office in 2 years at the election. Who will be responsible for the EU debacle?
    It is a debacle? Looks like textbook failing fast, and is a trivial sum in the context of a €300 billion budget.
  • DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    A decision on the Cumbria coal mine is due in 5 days.
    https://www.edie.net/decision-on-cumbria-coal-mine-pushed-back-for-a-third-time/

    To recap, this would produce coking coal that we need for the strategically vital steel industry. We already import this coal, so mining it domestically would reduce emissions, as well as creating jobs and all the other benefits.

    I don't like to be negative, but I will be shocked if the Government goes ahead. But for any sort of Conservative Government - even a green one, this is a no brainer. Actually for any responsible government of any colour.
    Coking coal is last year's tech. Hydrogen direct reduction is the new kid on the block. The first pilot plants are already running and several large demonstration plants are planned to come online before 2030. Your assessment is dated.
    And your critique is meaningless.

    Of course there are new technologies. 'Demonstration plants' in 2030' means the technology isn't likely to be widely available for a good 15 years of burning foreign coal, if it ever emerges at all.

    Strategically unwise in my view. If we choose to feed (subsidise) our established industry with cheap coking coal we will discourage active investment in productivity.

    and sorry for the 'dated', it was too easily applied personally, rather than to the argument.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Foxy said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Yes, what a flop the Metaverse is! Has any other event drawn a bigger crowd there?
    If it is going to be a thing it is still a long long way off from being ready to be so. Zuckerberg seems to be super keen on the idea, but not so great at selling to people what the point currently is.
  • Romeo Brown.

    A very easy £100 - available at 65/1 with only four fences to go as the leader.

    Only stuck on £2 each way.

    A fine front won hurdle winner. Bottom in weights. Silly price. Great call.

    RP. Romeo Brown Three wins for this yard, latest two from the front; well held in October; tall order
    SL In excellent form during the spring, well ridden when adding to his tally at Haydock (3m) in May and matched that on back of 5 months off when third at Wetherby (2m) in October. Rare poor effort faced with testing ground at Carlisle since.

    A great afternoon of racing to watch. Edwardstone now the stand out 2m chaser? We still have to see Energumene this season.
    If its any consolidation I followed your initial tip until he fell out.

    Then, I couldn't understand why Romeo Brown was so long for so long - I assume everyone thought he'd get very tired and overtaken in the last furlong (and to be fair, so did i) but I saw 65/1 as big value so stuck on £2 E/W.

    I was then astonished to see it actually happening and, of course, then I wish I'd stuck on the full £20 I had in my account.s
    It’s no consolation. It just embarrasses me. I havn’t tipped a winner for weeks 🤦‍♀️
    Also, @MoonRabbit, I think that approach to betting is being a bit hard on yourself.

    Lots of people think being a good better is about being a visionary: seeing a tip way ahead of its time, backing it, and seeing it come good at tremendous odds.

    It's not. It's about trading: recognising when odds are good, or bad, and managing them accordingly.

    So, a good gambler will change his or her mind all the time, and be very hard to follow. They will be good at getting themselves into holes but even better at getting out of them.
  • alednamalednam Posts: 186
    You say "it was all about how the SNP would be put in a powerful position if the Tories did not get a majority".
    I'd say "THE TORIES MADE IT all about the SNP, who were then as much hated as Labour by the electioneering Tory right.
  • Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    "In 1971, the proportion of Londoners who were “White British” was 86.2 percent. Fifty years later, it’s 36.8 percent. That’s not a population change; it’s an entire paradigm shift."
    It is indeed an entire paradigm shift.

    Sullivan rightly notes that, but is ambivalent on what should be welcomed and what might be mourned.

    Personally I was a migrant to London and indeed, by some definitions, mixed race.

    Complicated thing, modernity.
    The best book, to be reassured about this, is Whiteshift by Eric Kaufmann.

    It basically makes clear that migrants adopt British cultures and traditions in time, provided they largely marry "in house", and eventually (c.100 years) mixed race will be the majority ethnicity and not any other.

    It will be a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raducanus.

    (Also, their politics will approach the mean of the majority white British population as they grow so those on the Left who assume they will be allies for cultural Marxism have got it dead wrong.)
    I agree on that, but worth noting that the mean of the White British populations politics may well shift too, as it has many times over the last 100 years.

    Many things are taken as normal now that would have seemed insanely radical 100 years ago, such as Gay marriage, racial equality and disbanding the Empire, and things considered normal then such as the death penalty or workhouses would be considered radical now.
    The death penalty has majority support in most opinion polls, so perhaps not so radical. It's the elite consensus that shifted, but that might prove unstable in the future.
    I detest the death penalty but, yes, I could see that coming back under certain circumstances.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    alednam said:

    You say "it was all about how the SNP would be put in a powerful position if the Tories did not get a majority".
    I'd say "THE TORIES MADE IT all about the SNP, who were then as much hated as Labour by the electioneering Tory right.

    Yes and they'll do it again.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    edited December 2022
    Carnyx said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Like I said: cultural suicide. Everything is attacked from within and without. What the Woke can’t close they will give away

    You can argue the Elgin Marbles are Sui generis. But of course the demands for repatriation won’t stop here. Once you establish the principle then everything becomes liable for “restitution”
    Not so Byronic anymore
    Indeed.

    Cold is the heart, fair Greece, that looks on thee,
    Nor feels as lovers oer the dust they loved;
    Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
    Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
    By British hands, which it had best behovd
    To guard those relics neer to be restored.
    Curst be the hour when their isle they roved,
    And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
    And snatchd thy shrinking Gods to northern climes abhorrd!
    The Elgin marbles were made to glorify the leader of the Athenian Empire (Pericles) using money stolen from the treasuries of their vassals. The Athenian Empire in addition to being based on conquest, ran on slavery. And war crimes (see Melos). As did its vassal states.

    So you have statues made to glorify the wars and power of a leader of an Empire based on war, slavery, misogyny and war crimes. Using money stolen from other slave states.

    EDIT: much of the basic work on the Parthenon and the marbles would have been done by slaves, as well.

    Grind them up for cement to build low income housing.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    Nigelb said:

    Clearing out junk in the cellar, just came across a few bottles of Chateau Montrose 1985.
    But disappointing, as Covid has destroyed my ability to taste any complex wine at all.

    Am I missing much ?
    (Will probably give them away for Christmas.)

    Scottish wine?

    I'm more familiar with the 80/-.
  • Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    I think that @Cyclefree is correct that there is no good reason to vote Conservative now, other than to deny Labour a large majority. This government is completely useless, from the point of view of both Conservatives and floating voters.
    I fear Sean that you will find the next Labour government is worse. They were convinced that windfall taxes was the way to go. In fact more taxes is almost always the way to go. The government is so much better at spending our money than we are, obvs.
    Sure, it's a choice between bad and worse.
    I think Labour's policies on private schools have sealed an extremely unenthusiastic vote for the Conservatives for me at the next election.

    The Conservatives will be crap, venal, listless, infighting and tax me very highly. Labour will be crap, hectoring, lecturing, vengeful, unpatriotic and tax me extremely highly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    I can never judge him objectively because he's so loathsome to me, but he literally calls for the termination of the constitution in that post, and yet nothing seems to shake his supporters that he is a patriot. I'm sure many (though certainly not even close to a majority) of the elected representatives even if they like him find that stuff a bit much, but very very few of them think it is disqualifying to be their candidate.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
    It's a sign of a lack of self-confidence.

    Ironically, if everyone believed equally that Britain had a strong future - and were proud of what it stood for - it simply wouldn't happen.
    Of course. And any remaining self confidence is viciously corroded by the Woke. White people must be ashamed of their skin colour, British history is evil, every British institution is racist

    Eventually all this shit has an effect, and the culture collapses from within. What will replace it?

    I dunno. The Woke may not like a world where British and western self belief has entirely disappeared
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Tres said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    We could have put on a superb Festival of Brexit with that money.
    Tres said:

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2022/12/01/uk-brexit-festival-cost-120m-but-generated-only-78m/

    'The UK's 'Brexit festival' has cost the taxpayer £120 million ($144 million) while delivering unknown financial benefits after an extended deadline was set to meet benchmarks under projections made by government officials.

    The Unboxed series of art events held across the country this year was investigated by the National Audit Office (NAO) after concerns were raised by parliamentarians it had only attracted 2.8 million live visitors to events.

    On Thursday, the NAO released its report into the event and revealed that by November 2022, 18.1 million people had engaged with the festival overall -- a figure made up of 2.8 million attending live events, 13.6 million engaged with the festival’s broadcast and digital content, plus 1.7 million children and families taking part in festival learning activities.'
    Those responsible for this incompetence will be kicked out of office in 2 years at the election. Who will be responsible for the EU debacle?
    It is a debacle? Looks like textbook failing fast, and is a trivial sum in the context of a €300 billion budget.
    More to the point I think the idea people get kicked out of office for wasting vast sums of money is a bit optimistic. That's not the reason people lose elections, and money will get wasted whoever is in power.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    Musk seems to believe that there is a constitutional right to publish the penises of private citizens.

    Trump goes one further and believes that because this right was denied, he ought to have won the last election.
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    Good piece. Nice elegiac tone

    Britain might be the first nation to voluntarily commit cultural, political and demographic suicide

    The rest of the West ain’t far behind, tho
    Maybe it'll mean PM Farage in a few years' time.
    You’d think so, but the young are absolutely brainwashed into Wokeness. Whiteness is shameful and Britishness is a sin

    I don’t see much hope. Sadly
    Wrong on all statements, but that is Leonadamus for you.
    I don’t agree with his statements, but the Wellcome Collection affair and the contretemps over Lady Hussey both make the UK look daft.
    I take the view that self-regard is not half a sin as self-hatred.

    Unfortunately, a lot of people in authority feel the need to apologise for things done by people long dead to people long dead.
    They'd rather do that and hoover up the plaudits than take responsibility for their own failings and do something about it.

    Maybe future generations of politicians will apologise for them instead.
    As far as their own sins are concerned it's "lessons will be learned", and "I'm sorry if you were offended."
    I truly fucking hate lessons will be learned. They are never learned.

    I almost walked off my current megaproject this week (which has become extremely political this week, and I'm on the wrong side of it) because two very senior executives are failing to listen on the importance of a crucial lesson - they cut me off when I tried to explain what happened on Crossrail without it.

    I'm thinking of putting my advice in writing so I have written record of their rejection.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    kle4 said:

    Tres said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    We could have put on a superb Festival of Brexit with that money.
    Tres said:

    DavidL said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has been covered - but the story amused me no end.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-threw-e387k-meta-gala-nobody-came-big-tech/

    "EU throws party in €387K metaverse — and hardly anyone turns up

    Only five people showed up Tuesday evening to a party hosted by the European Commission’s foreign aid department in the metaverse to get young people excited about the EU.

    Devex correspondent Vince Chadwick tweeted that he was eventually the only party guest left, after "initial bemused chats with the roughly five other humans who showed up."

    Apparently only a few of the 44 people who liked the official trailer were intrigued enough by the avatars dancing to house music on a tropical island to actually join the party."

    Who could doubt that the EU is also better at spending our money than (a) ourselves or (b) our own government actually accountable to us for their incompetence? Sigh.
    https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2022/12/01/uk-brexit-festival-cost-120m-but-generated-only-78m/

    'The UK's 'Brexit festival' has cost the taxpayer £120 million ($144 million) while delivering unknown financial benefits after an extended deadline was set to meet benchmarks under projections made by government officials.

    The Unboxed series of art events held across the country this year was investigated by the National Audit Office (NAO) after concerns were raised by parliamentarians it had only attracted 2.8 million live visitors to events.

    On Thursday, the NAO released its report into the event and revealed that by November 2022, 18.1 million people had engaged with the festival overall -- a figure made up of 2.8 million attending live events, 13.6 million engaged with the festival’s broadcast and digital content, plus 1.7 million children and families taking part in festival learning activities.'
    Those responsible for this incompetence will be kicked out of office in 2 years at the election. Who will be responsible for the EU debacle?
    It is a debacle? Looks like textbook failing fast, and is a trivial sum in the context of a €300 billion budget.
    More to the point I think the idea people get kicked out of office for wasting vast sums of money is a bit optimistic. That's not the reason people lose elections, and money will get wasted whoever is in power.
    Even sillier was the implication that well run (ie British) institutions don’t sometimes waste money.
  • Stephen Flynn has misled parliament more often than any other MP on Scotland's offshore wind potential. It is telling that his SNP colleagues have decided that a talent and enthusiasm for delivering fake statistics is exactly what they are looking for in a new Westminster leader.

    https://twitter.com/staylorish/status/1599086495675011074
  • WillG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    "In 1971, the proportion of Londoners who were “White British” was 86.2 percent. Fifty years later, it’s 36.8 percent. That’s not a population change; it’s an entire paradigm shift."
    It is indeed an entire paradigm shift.

    Sullivan rightly notes that, but is ambivalent on what should be welcomed and what might be mourned.

    Personally I was a migrant to London and indeed, by some definitions, mixed race.

    Complicated thing, modernity.
    The best book, to be reassured about this, is Whiteshift by Eric Kaufmann.

    It basically makes clear that migrants adopt British cultures and traditions in time, provided they largely marry "in house", and eventually (c.100 years) mixed race will be the majority ethnicity and not any other.

    It will be a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raducanus.

    (Also, their politics will approach the mean of the majority white British population as they grow so those on the Left who assume they will be allies for cultural Marxism have got it dead wrong.)
    This is only the case if the integration happens faster than the immigration. That depends on the type of immigrants and the volume of immigration.
    One thing that disappoints me is immigrants from the subcontinent marrying almost always further immigrants from the subcontinent who don't speak English, and further reinforcing a sub community for another generation.

    It doesn't matter in small numbers, but does in large ones, and although some do marry domestically I don't think enough do.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    "In 1971, the proportion of Londoners who were “White British” was 86.2 percent. Fifty years later, it’s 36.8 percent. That’s not a population change; it’s an entire paradigm shift."
    It is indeed an entire paradigm shift.

    Sullivan rightly notes that, but is ambivalent on what should be welcomed and what might be mourned.

    Personally I was a migrant to London and indeed, by some definitions, mixed race.

    Complicated thing, modernity.
    The best book, to be reassured about this, is Whiteshift by Eric Kaufmann.

    It basically makes clear that migrants adopt British cultures and traditions in time, provided they largely marry "in house", and eventually (c.100 years) mixed race will be the majority ethnicity and not any other.

    It will be a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raducanus.

    (Also, their politics will approach the mean of the majority white British population as they grow so those on the Left who assume they will be allies for cultural Marxism have got it dead wrong.)
    I agree on that, but worth noting that the mean of the White British populations politics may well shift too, as it has many times over the last 100 years.

    Many things are taken as normal now that would have seemed insanely radical 100 years ago, such as Gay marriage, racial equality and disbanding the Empire, and things considered normal then such as the death penalty or workhouses would be considered radical now.
    The death penalty has majority support in most opinion polls, so perhaps not so radical. It's the elite consensus that shifted, but that might prove unstable in the future.
    I detest the death penalty but, yes, I could see that coming back under certain circumstances.
    I'm genuinely surprised there are not more high profile politicians who are in favour of it, given we know it remains popular in theory.
  • DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    A decision on the Cumbria coal mine is due in 5 days.
    https://www.edie.net/decision-on-cumbria-coal-mine-pushed-back-for-a-third-time/

    To recap, this would produce coking coal that we need for the strategically vital steel industry. We already import this coal, so mining it domestically would reduce emissions, as well as creating jobs and all the other benefits.

    I don't like to be negative, but I will be shocked if the Government goes ahead. But for any sort of Conservative Government - even a green one, this is a no brainer. Actually for any responsible government of any colour.
    I want at least one domestic British coal mind to keep our heritage railways and museums going.

    It's probably the thing (outside of work) I care about the most. I can get rather emotional about it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    I can never judge him objectively because he's so loathsome to me, but he literally calls for the termination of the constitution in that post, and yet nothing seems to shake his supporters that he is a patriot. I'm sure many (though certainly not even close to a majority) of the elected representatives even if they like him find that stuff a bit much, but very very few of them think it is disqualifying to be their candidate.
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    I can never judge him objectively because he's so loathsome to me, but he literally calls for the termination of the constitution in that post, and yet nothing seems to shake his supporters that he is a patriot. I'm sure many (though certainly not even close to a majority) of the elected representatives even if they like him find that stuff a bit much, but very very few of them think it is disqualifying to be their candidate.
    http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8425

    A long read - but worth it. The author’s thesis is that the Roman Republic died because the elite clung to the constitution rather than adapting to the reality of world around them.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    Good piece. Nice elegiac tone

    Britain might be the first nation to voluntarily commit cultural, political and demographic suicide

    The rest of the West ain’t far behind, tho
    Maybe it'll mean PM Farage in a few years' time.
    You’d think so, but the young are absolutely brainwashed into Wokeness. Whiteness is shameful and Britishness is a sin

    I don’t see much hope. Sadly
    Wrong on all statements, but that is Leonadamus for you.
    I don’t agree with his statements, but the Wellcome Collection affair and the contretemps over Lady Hussey both make the UK look daft.
    I take the view that self-regard is not half a sin as self-hatred.

    Unfortunately, a lot of people in authority feel the need to apologise for things done by people long dead to people long dead.
    They'd rather do that and hoover up the plaudits than take responsibility for their own failings and do something about it.

    Maybe future generations of politicians will apologise for them instead.
    As far as their own sins are concerned it's "lessons will be learned", and "I'm sorry if you were offended."
    I truly fucking hate lessons will be learned. They are never learned.

    I almost walked off my current megaproject this week (which has become extremely political this week, and I'm on the wrong side of it) because two very senior executives are failing to listen on the importance of a crucial lesson - they cut me off when I tried to explain what happened on Crossrail without it.

    I'm thinking of putting my advice in writing so I have written record of their rejection.
    Surely you keep a formal lessons learned register and conclude each project stage with some kind of review?

    People are notoriously lucid and objective is such sessions as well.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    Good piece. Nice elegiac tone

    Britain might be the first nation to voluntarily commit cultural, political and demographic suicide

    The rest of the West ain’t far behind, tho
    Maybe it'll mean PM Farage in a few years' time.
    You’d think so, but the young are absolutely brainwashed into Wokeness. Whiteness is shameful and Britishness is a sin

    I don’t see much hope. Sadly
    Wrong on all statements, but that is Leonadamus for you.
    I don’t agree with his statements, but the Wellcome Collection affair and the contretemps over Lady Hussey both make the UK look daft.
    I take the view that self-regard is not half a sin as self-hatred.

    Unfortunately, a lot of people in authority feel the need to apologise for things done by people long dead to people long dead.
    They'd rather do that and hoover up the plaudits than take responsibility for their own failings and do something about it.

    Maybe future generations of politicians will apologise for them instead.
    As far as their own sins are concerned it's "lessons will be learned", and "I'm sorry if you were offended."
    I truly fucking hate lessons will be learned. They are never learned.

    I almost walked off my current megaproject this week (which has become extremely political this week, and I'm on the wrong side of it) because two very senior executives are failing to listen on the importance of a crucial lesson - they cut me off when I tried to explain what happened on Crossrail without it.

    I'm thinking of putting my advice in writing so I have written record of their rejection.
    Damn right you should. Everyone knows lessons are rarely learned, because the same old human reasons for issues will crop up again, so at least you can show you tried to do the right thing.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited December 2022
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
    I guess that's code for racial suicide. Because any connection between British or English culture and the Athenian Parthenon other than posh white Brits' belief in thieves' rights, at least when it's they who are the thieves, is hard to spot.

    Giving stolen stuff back is "woke"? Tantamount to teaching infants that gender is a choice? It's possible to be as crazed as your opponents.

    But anyway, the list of items that forrinners might take it into their inferior heads to reiterate their trendy demands for begins as follows:

    1. The Koh-i-Noor diamond

    Which will it be -

    a) let Camilla wear it in a "show the world who knows how to do ceremony best" extravaganza, for reasons of protocol, tradition, continuity, propriety, dignity, national pride, and the outdoing of emperors Napoleon and Bokassa,

    b) give it to one of the several countries it could go to, perhaps having a man wearing tights announce the lucky winner, or

    c) whether it's kept in a cupboard or worn, ban the press from mentioning it?

    2. Cleopatra's Needles

    - the one in London and its twin in NYC.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    This evening's winners will be A---------a.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904
    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    Is Trump actually insane?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    A decision on the Cumbria coal mine is due in 5 days.
    https://www.edie.net/decision-on-cumbria-coal-mine-pushed-back-for-a-third-time/

    To recap, this would produce coking coal that we need for the strategically vital steel industry. We already import this coal, so mining it domestically would reduce emissions, as well as creating jobs and all the other benefits.

    I don't like to be negative, but I will be shocked if the Government goes ahead. But for any sort of Conservative Government - even a green one, this is a no brainer. Actually for any responsible government of any colour.
    I won't hold my breath, but if they do I think we can all predict the opposition and media slant on it.
  • Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    Musk seems to believe that there is a constitutional right to publish the penises of private citizens.

    Trump goes one further and believes that because this right was denied, he ought to have won the last election.
    Biden 81 million votes
    Trump 74 million votes

    :innocent:
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    kle4 said:


    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    "In 1971, the proportion of Londoners who were “White British” was 86.2 percent. Fifty years later, it’s 36.8 percent. That’s not a population change; it’s an entire paradigm shift."
    It is indeed an entire paradigm shift.

    Sullivan rightly notes that, but is ambivalent on what should be welcomed and what might be mourned.

    Personally I was a migrant to London and indeed, by some definitions, mixed race.

    Complicated thing, modernity.
    The best book, to be reassured about this, is Whiteshift by Eric Kaufmann.

    It basically makes clear that migrants adopt British cultures and traditions in time, provided they largely marry "in house", and eventually (c.100 years) mixed race will be the majority ethnicity and not any other.

    It will be a nation of James Cleverlys, Jessica Ennis-Hills and Emma Raducanus.

    (Also, their politics will approach the mean of the majority white British population as they grow so those on the Left who assume they will be allies for cultural Marxism have got it dead wrong.)
    I agree on that, but worth noting that the mean of the White British populations politics may well shift too, as it has many times over the last 100 years.

    Many things are taken as normal now that would have seemed insanely radical 100 years ago, such as Gay marriage, racial equality and disbanding the Empire, and things considered normal then such as the death penalty or workhouses would be considered radical now.
    The death penalty has majority support in most opinion polls, so perhaps not so radical. It's the elite consensus that shifted, but that might prove unstable in the future.
    I detest the death penalty but, yes, I could see that coming back under certain circumstances.
    I'm genuinely surprised there are not more high profile politicians who are in favour of it, given we know it remains popular in theory.
    One small benefit from the return of the death penalty might be the revival of the phrase “I’ll swing for…x”, where x is the object of blind rage.

    You don’t hear it much these days, sadly.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    So, basically, a whole bunch of UK people are now getting Freedom of Movement back, thanks to remote working. Portugal has also brought in a digital nomad visa. So has Greece

    Who needs the Single Market? I could move to Seville tomorrow

    An English colleague in my office works on UK campaigns while living in Portugal; another lives in Italy. They pop over now and then for meetings and it works pretty well. Less drastically, two of my key team members live in Scotland, which is still a long way from Surrey, and that's fine too.

    It's possible that wfh will do more for levelling up, as people move to live in cheaper areas, than Government dictats to move a Department to South Shields ever would.
    It's not proving terribly popular with the people from the poor areas who are priced out and have to move to even poorer areas.
    But they are BrexitVotingGammonShitScumRacists - the fact that they refuse to embrace being priced out of their towns and sent over the hill to the estates (see Malmesbury in Wiltshire) proves it.
    Immigration made up only a relatively small component of house price inflation. By far the bigger (demand side) pushes were low inflation rates and the tendency to live in smaller households.
    This just isn't plausible. The biggest driver in demand for housing is population growth, of which 75% is driven by immigration.
    But not household formation.
    And add interest rates, which was the biggest factor.

    And then you have supply side issues, although I leave those out because you might argue that we wouldn’t need supply without the extra demand.
    There hasn't been THAT much change in household sizes. And as for interest rates, that has also been caused by immigration. The mass migration from New Labour opening the flood gates caused complete stagnation of wage rates among the bottom half of the population. That kept inflation low and meant the Bank didn't have to increase interest rates much during the economic boom.
    Interest rates were low globally.
    You are 100% wrong.
    Was it housing supply could not meet demand is the question. Certainly the first part of the equation there can be no arguing over - years of excessive QE under Labour and other governments increased the amount of money in the economy, and banks could lend more cheaply, mortgages were cheaper, but this coupled with housing supply not easily expanded pushed cost of housing upward.

    Why was housing supply not so easily expanded to meet demand? this is the question to argue over.
    This.

    In areas/countries that built houses on demand, house prices didn’t soar.

    The problem in the U.K. is that we have created a toxic house building culture - only the big builders can really work in the constrained market. Which creates local monopolies for whichever of the big boys is building the next estate. The savagely poor quality and terrible ergonomics of the houses and estates puts people off such things built near them. The queeze from land price and the requirements for density make it all worse. Councils see negative value in more people living in their areas - people cost more than the council tax and central grants brings in….
    It does seem to me an issue with a lot of localism in it, the problem is different in different parts of the country – London being obvious and extreme example - but not just build houses, but it matters where we build them. And not to take UK, or even England as a whole, and attempt to balance the overall national supply with the overall national demand. Also how it happens. For smaller builders to join in, banks will need to lend to them, and builders big and small will need access to all the skills they need.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Leon said:

    So, basically, a whole bunch of UK people are now getting Freedom of Movement back, thanks to remote working. Portugal has also brought in a digital nomad visa. So has Greece

    Who needs the Single Market? I could move to Seville tomorrow

    An English colleague in my office works on UK campaigns while living in Portugal; another lives in Italy. They pop over now and then for meetings and it works pretty well. Less drastically, two of my key team members live in Scotland, which is still a long way from Surrey, and that's fine too.

    It's possible that wfh will do more for levelling up, as people move to live in cheaper areas, than Government dictats to move a Department to South Shields ever would.
    Nice to hear you espousing the wonders of free markets, and scepticism of government dictats! ;)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    This is very good by Andrew Sullivan on the profound demographic changes in the UK, where there are now more foreign-born residents than in the United States.

    https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/england-his-england-235

    Good piece. Nice elegiac tone

    Britain might be the first nation to voluntarily commit cultural, political and demographic suicide

    The rest of the West ain’t far behind, tho
    Maybe it'll mean PM Farage in a few years' time.
    You’d think so, but the young are absolutely brainwashed into Wokeness. Whiteness is shameful and Britishness is a sin

    I don’t see much hope. Sadly
    Wrong on all statements, but that is Leonadamus for you.
    I don’t agree with his statements, but the Wellcome Collection affair and the contretemps over Lady Hussey both make the UK look daft.
    I take the view that self-regard is not half a sin as self-hatred.

    Unfortunately, a lot of people in authority feel the need to apologise for things done by people long dead to people long dead.
    They'd rather do that and hoover up the plaudits than take responsibility for their own failings and do something about it.

    Maybe future generations of politicians will apologise for them instead.
    As far as their own sins are concerned it's "lessons will be learned", and "I'm sorry if you were offended."
    I truly fucking hate lessons will be learned. They are never learned.

    I almost walked off my current megaproject this week (which has become extremely political this week, and I'm on the wrong side of it) because two very senior executives are failing to listen on the importance of a crucial lesson - they cut me off when I tried to explain what happened on Crossrail without it.

    I'm thinking of putting my advice in writing so I have written record of their rejection.
    Tell them you are impressed by the courage of their decision making.

    I’ve used this. No bullshit manager likes the cold fear of being accused of being courageous.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    A decision on the Cumbria coal mine is due in 5 days.
    https://www.edie.net/decision-on-cumbria-coal-mine-pushed-back-for-a-third-time/

    To recap, this would produce coking coal that we need for the strategically vital steel industry. We already import this coal, so mining it domestically would reduce emissions, as well as creating jobs and all the other benefits.

    I don't like to be negative, but I will be shocked if the Government goes ahead. But for any sort of Conservative Government - even a green one, this is a no brainer. Actually for any responsible government of any colour.
    Coking coal is last year's tech. Hydrogen direct reduction is the new kid on the block. The first pilot plants are already running and several large demonstration plants are planned to come online before 2030. Your assessment is dated.
    And your critique is meaningless.

    Of course there are new technologies. 'Demonstration plants' in 2030' means the technology isn't likely to be widely available for a good 15 years of burning foreign coal, if it ever emerges at all.

    Strategically unwise in my view. If we choose to feed (subsidise) our established industry with cheap coking coal we will discourage active investment in productivity.

    and sorry for the 'dated', it was too easily applied personally, rather than to the argument.
    Lacking as we do, a crystal ball, your argument could just as easily prove the one that dates poorly. 15 years (if it is that) could mean that carbon capture technology has moved on to the extent that burning coal is completely emission free. Meanwhile we've imported thousands of tonnes of foreign coal, and invested millions (billions?) in a technology that you acknowledge is more expensive, that could be nothing more than a massive white elephant.

    Acknowledging that using our own coal is the cheapest and most efficient way to manufacture steel (to the extent that you call it a subsidy!) is an exceptionally poor basis for your argument. Successful technological change has never come about by wanton impoverishment of an industry in the way that you propose.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    I can never judge him objectively because he's so loathsome to me, but he literally calls for the termination of the constitution in that post, and yet nothing seems to shake his supporters that he is a patriot. I'm sure many (though certainly not even close to a majority) of the elected representatives even if they like him find that stuff a bit much, but very very few of them think it is disqualifying to be their candidate.
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    I can never judge him objectively because he's so loathsome to me, but he literally calls for the termination of the constitution in that post, and yet nothing seems to shake his supporters that he is a patriot. I'm sure many (though certainly not even close to a majority) of the elected representatives even if they like him find that stuff a bit much, but very very few of them think it is disqualifying to be their candidate.
    http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8425

    A long read - but worth it. The author’s thesis is that the Roman Republic died because the elite clung to the constitution rather than adapting to the reality of world around them.
    Well, I'm certainly not alone in often commenting americans can be a little bit too enamoured of their constitution sometimes, to the point of now making it far harder to update than it should be (even recognising it was not supposed to be very easy) and that leading to a lot of difficulty, but given the rhetoric they often employ and on the importance of following the rules, you'd think at least some would be thrown by a direct call to ignore it completely.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    DJ41 said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
    I guess that's code for racial suicide. Because any connection between British or English culture and the Athenian Parthenon other than posh white Brits' belief in thieves' rights, at least when it's they who are the thieves, is hard to spot.

    Giving stolen stuff back is "woke"? Tantamount to teaching infants that gender is a choice? It's possible to be as crazed as your opponents.

    But anyway, the list of items that forrinners might take it into their inferior heads to reiterate their trendy demands for begins as follows:

    1. The Koh-i-Noor diamond

    Which will it be -

    a) let Camilla wear it in a "show the world who knows how to do ceremony best" extravaganza, for reasons of protocol, tradition, continuity, propriety, dignity, national pride, and the outdoing of emperors Napoleon and Bokassa,

    b) give it to one of the several countries it could go to, perhaps having a man wearing tights announce the lucky winner, or

    c) whether it's kept in a cupboard or worn, ban the press from mentioning it?

    2. Cleopatra's Needles

    - the one in London and its twin in NYC.
    The only argument for saying the Elgin Marbles were stolen is to claim that Ottoman rule over Greece was fundamentally illegitimate.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    A decision on the Cumbria coal mine is due in 5 days.
    https://www.edie.net/decision-on-cumbria-coal-mine-pushed-back-for-a-third-time/

    To recap, this would produce coking coal that we need for the strategically vital steel industry. We already import this coal, so mining it domestically would reduce emissions, as well as creating jobs and all the other benefits.

    I don't like to be negative, but I will be shocked if the Government goes ahead. But for any sort of Conservative Government - even a green one, this is a no brainer. Actually for any responsible government of any colour.
    I want at least one domestic British coal mind to keep our heritage railways and museums going.

    It's probably the thing (outside of work) I care about the most. I can get rather emotional about it.
    I want a thriving coal industry.

    Even if this does go ahead, a planning restriction will limit the amount of coal it can pull out. Fuck that. Dig I say.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
    It's a sign of a lack of self-confidence.

    Ironically, if everyone believed equally that Britain had a strong future - and were proud of what it stood for - it simply wouldn't happen.
    Of course. And any remaining self confidence is viciously corroded by the Woke. White people must be ashamed of their skin colour, British history is evil, every British institution is racist

    Eventually all this shit has an effect, and the culture collapses from within. What will replace it?

    I dunno. The Woke may not like a world where British and western self belief has entirely disappeared
    That's exactly what the cultural Marxists want.

    They are enabled by the establishment liberals. Which is the group I keep trying to wake up to it.

    There are signs of hope. @Gallowgate and @Gardenwalker are intelligent enough to have their own considered view on it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    ClippP said:

    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    Is Trump actually insane?
    In some ways it is tempting to think so, but probably not. He's not just a troll, and in several legal issues his only viable defence appears to rest on a lack of willfulness to act unlawfully on the basis he believes, absolutely, everything he says, including the stuff that contradicts itself. He also seems to believe anything he is told.

    Certainly I don't know people who could support Trump over Biden on the basis of worries over the latter's mental condition.
  • Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    Musk seems to believe that there is a constitutional right to publish the penises of private citizens.

    Trump goes one further and believes that because this right was denied, he ought to have won the last election.
    Twitter executives knew they had made a fundamental fuck up within days. Amazing how some on here still take the view that they were right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    Musk seems to believe that there is a constitutional right to publish the penises of private citizens.

    Trump goes one further and believes that because this right was denied, he ought to have won the last election.
    Twitter executives knew they had made a fundamental fuck up within days. Amazing how some on here still take the view that they were right.
    I don't have a clue about twitter, but I'm much more confident that revelations about it would not turn back time and invalidate a lawfully certified election or invalidate the entire constitution.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    I can never judge him objectively because he's so loathsome to me, but he literally calls for the termination of the constitution in that post, and yet nothing seems to shake his supporters that he is a patriot. I'm sure many (though certainly not even close to a majority) of the elected representatives even if they like him find that stuff a bit much, but very very few of them think it is disqualifying to be their candidate.
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    I can never judge him objectively because he's so loathsome to me, but he literally calls for the termination of the constitution in that post, and yet nothing seems to shake his supporters that he is a patriot. I'm sure many (though certainly not even close to a majority) of the elected representatives even if they like him find that stuff a bit much, but very very few of them think it is disqualifying to be their candidate.
    http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8425

    A long read - but worth it. The author’s thesis is that the Roman Republic died because the elite clung to the constitution rather than adapting to the reality of world around them.
    Well, I'm certainly not alone in often commenting americans can be a little bit too enamoured of their constitution sometimes, to the point of now making it far harder to update than it should be (even recognising it was not supposed to be very easy) and that leading to a lot of difficulty, but given the rhetoric they often employ and on the importance of following the rules, you'd think at least some would be thrown by a direct call to ignore it completely.
    Worshiping a constitution doesn’t work when an increasing segment of the population don’t worship it in the same way you do.

    Screaming “The Ways of The Fathers!” when the mob is burning Clodius’ body, with the Senate house as the pyre….
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited December 2022
    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    "The British Museum said it would 'talk to anyone, including the Greek government' to find partnership."

    For best effect, that should be said in a cut-glass horsey accent.

    Q. Have you been talking to the Greek government?
    A. We're willing to discuss proposals from any scumsuckers who request that we grant them a partnership arrangement, even if they're black or Greek.

    Is there a market on how long the king will keep the throne? It may not be long before he starts blaming stuff on Camilla. And then after her it will be his eldest son.

    And then...

    "If the crops fail, Summerisle, next year your people will kill you".

  • Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
    British Museum or Stolen Goods Warehouse?
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    DavidL said:

    North Sea oil investment appears to be cratering after the Government's windfall tax - well done lads.
    https://order-order.com/2022/12/02/total-pulls-100-million-north-sea-drilling-investment-after-windfall-tax/#comments

    Domestic energy production is absolutely pivotal to avoid being at the mercy of international price fluctuations and global insecurity. Forget soft rhetoric about Putin - this sort of thing really *does* play into his hands.

    An idiotic policy with obvious and predictable harmful effects. Our priority is energy security and self sufficiency. Anything that does not assist that policy should really be binned.
    A decision on the Cumbria coal mine is due in 5 days.
    https://www.edie.net/decision-on-cumbria-coal-mine-pushed-back-for-a-third-time/

    To recap, this would produce coking coal that we need for the strategically vital steel industry. We already import this coal, so mining it domestically would reduce emissions, as well as creating jobs and all the other benefits.

    I don't like to be negative, but I will be shocked if the Government goes ahead. But for any sort of Conservative Government - even a green one, this is a no brainer. Actually for any responsible government of any colour.
    I want at least one domestic British coal mind to keep our heritage railways and museums going.

    It's probably the thing (outside of work) I care about the most. I can get rather emotional about it.
    I want a thriving coal industry.

    Even if this does go ahead, a planning restriction will limit the amount of coal it can pull out. Fuck that. Dig I say.
    I want a livable planet for my future grandchildren.
  • Hello long grass, my old friend.....

    EXC: Labour’s pledge to abolish the Lords is set to be watered down in favour of “reform” after an eleventh hour row between Gordon Brown and Starmer aides

    Story with @patrickkmaguire @hzeffman


    https://twitter.com/lara_spirit/status/1599011125013532674
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    edited December 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
    It's a sign of a lack of self-confidence.

    Ironically, if everyone believed equally that Britain had a strong future - and were proud of what it stood for - it simply wouldn't happen.
    Of course. And any remaining self confidence is viciously corroded by the Woke. White people must be ashamed of their skin colour, British history is evil, every British institution is racist

    Eventually all this shit has an effect, and the culture collapses from within. What will replace it?

    I dunno. The Woke may not like a world where British and western self belief has entirely disappeared
    That's exactly what the cultural Marxists want.

    They are enabled by the establishment liberals. Which is the group I keep trying to wake up to it.

    There are signs of hope. @Gallowgate and @Gardenwalker are intelligent enough to have their own considered view on it.
    At least we’re not alone in our madness. Here is the German Green Party’s “vision of how Berlin should be”. I particularly love the “clit” graffito


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Hello long grass, my old friend.....

    EXC: Labour’s pledge to abolish the Lords is set to be watered down in favour of “reform” after an eleventh hour row between Gordon Brown and Starmer aides

    Story with @patrickkmaguire @hzeffman


    https://twitter.com/lara_spirit/status/1599011125013532674

    It's not exactly a major vote winner. Frankly, there are a number of pretty quick and simple reforms they could introduce to immediately show their willingness, and then they can take time on anything more meaningful.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    kle4 said:

    ClippP said:

    Nigelb said:

    That Hunter Biden Laptop story, latest....

    Trump this morning calls to be reinstated as president and declared the winner of 2020, or to have a new election immediately.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1599023769019826176

    Is Trump actually insane?
    In some ways it is tempting to think so, but probably not. He's not just a troll, and in several legal issues his only viable defence appears to rest on a lack of willfulness to act unlawfully on the basis he believes, absolutely, everything he says, including the stuff that contradicts itself. He also seems to believe anything he is told.

    Certainly I don't know people who could support Trump over Biden on the basis of worries over the latter's mental condition.
    Musk is trying to antagonize liberals but all this will work out to the Democrats' advantage. The right wing base will view Trump as cheated, meaning they vote for him in the primary out of pique and anger. Trump will be a far weaker nominee than GOP alternatives, on account of him being a child like moron.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
    It's a sign of a lack of self-confidence.

    Ironically, if everyone believed equally that Britain had a strong future - and were proud of what it stood for - it simply wouldn't happen.
    Of course. And any remaining self confidence is viciously corroded by the Woke. White people must be ashamed of their skin colour, British history is evil, every British institution is racist

    Eventually all this shit has an effect, and the culture collapses from within. What will replace it?

    I dunno. The Woke may not like a world where British and western self belief has entirely disappeared
    That's exactly what the cultural Marxists want.

    They are enabled by the establishment liberals. Which is the group I keep trying to wake up to it.

    There are signs of hope. @Gallowgate and @Gardenwalker are intelligent enough to have their own considered view on it.
    At least we’re not alone in our madness. Here is the German Green Party’s “vision of how Berlin should be”. I particularly love the “clit” graffito


    I'm not sure playing frisbee with a dog on across two different balconies is very safe for any of the participants, but perhaps that shows a very liberal attitude toward nanny statism and prohibition on personal activities.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    carnforth said:

    George Osborne has cooked up a deal on the Elgin Marbles, per Greek sources:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63846449

    Actually, it says that George Osborne has been trying to cook up a deal and has not succeeded.
    On the other hand, the very fact that the BM is even talking to the Hellenic Gmt is highly significant.

    And, with all due respect, 2021 polling shows that retention is a minority opinion. Can't see that anything has happened to change that.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
    Yes. The Elgin Marbles are going back to Greece, no question. This story would not have leaked otherwise

    Then watch all the other nations stake claims to the rest of the British Museum. And given the Wokeness of museum curators - cf the Wellcome - who will resist?

    Cultural suicide
    It's a sign of a lack of self-confidence.

    Ironically, if everyone believed equally that Britain had a strong future - and were proud of what it stood for - it simply wouldn't happen.
    Of course. And any remaining self confidence is viciously corroded by the Woke. White people must be ashamed of their skin colour, British history is evil, every British institution is racist

    Eventually all this shit has an effect, and the culture collapses from within. What will replace it?

    I dunno. The Woke may not like a world where British and western self belief has entirely disappeared
    That's exactly what the cultural Marxists want.

    They are enabled by the establishment liberals. Which is the group I keep trying to wake up to it.

    There are signs of hope. @Gallowgate and @Gardenwalker are intelligent enough to have their own considered view on it.
    At least we’re not alone in our madness. Here is the German Green Party’s “vision of how Berlin should be”. I particularly love the “clit” graffito


    I’ll be honest, that looks pretty fun.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    kle4 said:

    Hello long grass, my old friend.....

    EXC: Labour’s pledge to abolish the Lords is set to be watered down in favour of “reform” after an eleventh hour row between Gordon Brown and Starmer aides

    Story with @patrickkmaguire @hzeffman


    https://twitter.com/lara_spirit/status/1599011125013532674

    It's not exactly a major vote winner. Frankly, there are a number of pretty quick and simple reforms they could introduce to immediately show their willingness, and then they can take time on anything more meaningful.
    I'm against the reform personally, but I fail to see why it should be stalled because Gordon Brown takes issue with it. Successive Tory Governments cheerfully ignored Thatcher, and she was a successful former-PM.
This discussion has been closed.