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The money goes on DeSantis to win WH2024 – politicalbetting.com

24

Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    16C, bright warm sunshine, no clouds, barely a puff of a breeze. Feels like a lovely day in late April, not mid November. Quite jarring

    Indeed. It's 14°C here north of Newcastle. A predicted low of 10°C tonight.
    T-Shirt and shorts weather up here.
    There is an old joke which has the punchline -150C, hell freezes over and Sunderland qualifies for Europe.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    Leon said:

    Damn shame if @Cyclefree has gone. And not a good sign for the site. We have a PB woman problem. We are the Republican Party of online political forums

    I’m still here, and I think beginning to get the gist how to debate and chat properly here.

    Missing Cyclefree long before someone mentioned it.

    Do you have to dust off your usual “it wasn’t me!” denials Z 😠
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976
    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    edited November 2022
    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Wish I had laid the Donald. Good news for @kinabalu's book I believe.

    It is yes. The Big Short is still underwater but it's shooting towards the surface and should soon leap into view like a shiny performing seal.
    I'm waiting to hear what Trump says on Tuesday.

    I think the market will overreact to any news he might run, just like Boris, and he still has a loud and noisy base.
    Yes, there is a slight (betting) parallel with BJ here imo.
    The difference between Boris and Trump is that British people, even the partisans, have a sense of moderation and going too far. Not true of the Republican base.
  • Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    16C, bright warm sunshine, no clouds, barely a puff of a breeze. Feels like a lovely day in late April, not mid November. Quite jarring

    Indeed. It's 14°C here north of Newcastle. A predicted low of 10°C tonight.
    T-Shirt and shorts weather up here.
    Is it ever NOT tee shirt and shorts in The Toon?

    I’ve been there on a frigid Saturday night in December and seen the miniskirts
    I'm sure you have, you sly old fox.

    But yes, it's too warm for November. And all the things we collectively do around now, Halloween, Guy Fawkes, Remembrance, they all get a chunk of their tang from it bering cold and gloomy.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976
    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965
    WillG said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Wish I had laid the Donald. Good news for @kinabalu's book I believe.

    It is yes. The Big Short is still underwater but it's shooting towards the surface and should soon leap into view like a shiny performing seal.
    I'm waiting to hear what Trump says on Tuesday.

    I think the market will overreact to any news he might run, just like Boris, and he still has a loud and noisy base.
    Yes, there is a slight (betting) parallel with BJ here imo.
    The difference between Boris and Trump is that British people, even the partisans, have a sense of moderation and going too far. Not true of the Republican base.
    Yep, everything bigger and more lurid in America and their populist charlatans are no exception.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,650
    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Its the Pussification of the world generally. Having a view is a sin now, unless its the permitted/accepted view, then its a virtue to be displayed on a badge for all to admire.
    We live in a world where a tit hoofing a couple of tomatoes about in a fit of pique is a 'bully'.
    Clown World.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,344
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting take on DeSantis vs Trump:

    Ron DeSantis would be to Donald Trump in a 2024 Republican primary what Elizabeth Warren would have been to Joe Biden in a 1-on-1 2020 Democratic primary — an ideologically purer candidate who could win college-educated voters but would lose non-college educated voters by a lot.

    https://twitter.com/krishan_a_patel/status/1550923812908126208

    Ideologically pure ?
    LOL

    Trump has no ideology other than himself.
    In the analogy DeSantis is the ideologically pure one.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505
    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Why not try spreading some cheer then?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872
    Toney showing he probably should have been on the plane.
  • Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    Mastodon or MasDebate?
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 2,403
    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    I think we are awaiting a new idea. Everything will be dismal until that happens. But fear, inertia, exhaustion, and the total collapse of centre right thinking are delaying that happy day.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976
    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976
    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    Are the moderators here really of the Left? My understanding is that the main moderator is an ultra rich libertarian.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    I think we are awaiting a new idea. Everything will be dismal until that happens. But fear, inertia, exhaustion, and the total collapse of centre right thinking are delaying that happy day.
    It’s worth taking a look at the commentary on Unherd. There you will find interesting new ideas and articulate new right wing thought - of a high level. You will also encounter - as @kinabalu says - some absolute nutters, but this is the internet

    The level of debate is probably higher than modern PB, I’m afraid to say; however it is a right wing ghetto, which is a shame

    Pb at its best is/was a large unharmonious chorus of divergent voices - nearly all well informed - with lots of wild opinions PLUS a sense of community. That seems to have gone. Hopefully temporary

    As said above it is still a pub but it is now a pub in rural Herefordshire on a Sunday afternoon when it was once a late night bar in Soho
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 8,327
    edited November 2022
    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    Are the moderators here really of the Left? My understanding is that the main moderator is an ultra rich libertarian.
    They’re not especially of the Left but they have to obey the unspoken rules of the internet and political debate - and those rules are definitely Woke
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,272
    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    So your diagnosis for Meeks, Cyclefree, Herdson departing is that there wasn't ENOUGH rudeness and far-right cosplay for them?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,650
    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    Are the moderators here really of the Left? My understanding is that the main moderator is an ultra rich libertarian.
    They’re not especially of the Left but they have to obey the unspoken rules of the internet and political debate - and those rules are definitely Woke
    Yes, at Internet Forum Moderator school, the current overriding maxim one is taught is 'The Grand Question'
    What Would Indigo Rumbelow Do?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 895
    Just reading this piece on the BBC about undocumented Africans working in the Italian agriculture sector. Some of it is pretty grim reading.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-63595025

    "... At the back of the camp is a large open area filled with piles of rubbish and a makeshift shower room which can be hired for $1 (£0.85) and a bucketful of water bought for $1.

    The building was constructed by Boja, a Gambian migrant who would only give his first name and moved here in 2017. He initially came to work in the olive fields but since then has used his carpentry skills to become the camp builder.

    He erects the shacks which are rented out to workers for $100 a month.

    But the shack dwellers live in grim conditions: there is no running water, no sewage system and no electricity. Fires are lit to cook and keep away the night chill, says Boja."
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,570

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    CarlottaVance despite the brickbats thrown her way by some of our Scottish contingent is the only one I can think of still posting regularly.
    Is @MoonRabbit not genuinely a horse racing fanatic lesbian then?
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976
    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    So your diagnosis for Meeks, Cyclefree, Herdson departing is that there wasn't ENOUGH rudeness and far-right cosplay for them?
    Why did each of them actually leave? It is never clear who is banned and who is muted and who left voluntarily. In my view, the policy of never explaining moderation decisions is a mistake. I think it is sensible to prevent active campaigns against disagreement with moderation calls, but sometimes a little communication is helpful.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    So your diagnosis for Meeks, Cyclefree, Herdson departing is that there wasn't ENOUGH rudeness and far-right cosplay for them?
    And there it is. Another predictable, prissy, pompous comment from some meaningless left wing prick who has never said anything interesting ever. All you do is kill the site, bit by bit, with this hysterical censorious drivel
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,272
    My diagnosis is that if you make people feel unwelcome, they leave. Simple!
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,272
    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    So your diagnosis for Meeks, Cyclefree, Herdson departing is that there wasn't ENOUGH rudeness and far-right cosplay for them?
    And there it is. Another predictable, prissy, pompous comment from some meaningless left wing prick who has never said anything interesting ever. All you do is kill the site, bit by bit, with this hysterical censorious drivel
    You don't sound like someone who particularly wants other people around.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    But usually whoever is out of power and about to come into it is full of energy and vigor. But this place is as muted on left wing personalities too. You are one of the most aggressive lefty Remainers on here, but even you don't seem to have the sizzle you used to.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 10,222
    edited November 2022
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976

    A question for

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact you're still here is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    What are my comments that make me lucky to be here? Slamming Russia?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,650
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    But usually whoever is out of power and about to come into it is full of energy and vigor. But this place is as muted on left wing personalities too. You are one of the most aggressive lefty Remainers on here, but even you don't seem to have the sizzle you used to.
    Because its like the Tortoises holding up the world only now Its just Shit, all the way down.
    Bleakness is omnipresent.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
  • WillG said:

    A question for

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact you're still here is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    What are my comments that make me lucky to be here? Slamming Russia?
    I thought I was responding to Leon. Already edited my comment.
  • WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    Are the moderators here really of the Left? My understanding is that the main moderator is an ultra rich libertarian.
    There was one ex-moderator (I repeat, ex-) who was alleged to be a trainspotting vegetarian teetotaller. But it's no doubt apocryphal!
  • WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,135

    Leon said:

    Damn shame if @Cyclefree has gone. And not a good sign for the site. We have a PB woman problem. We are the Republican Party of online political forums

    I find myself in the uncomfortable position of being in the group of people not hounded off pb.com, rather than the group of people who have been hounded off - which might soon be seen as the more illustrious group - and it also raises the question, "Am I one of the baddies?"
    Time to check if there any skulls on your clothing.....
    {The The Royal Lancers have entered the chat}

    Checking how many genocides you’ve committed is more accurate.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    I hope PB perks up, because I rely on it for company when dining alone in foreign parts

    The most interesting debate we’ve had, recently, on PB is “why is PB less interesting” - which is a symptom in itself
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    But usually whoever is out of power and about to come into it is full of energy and vigor. But this place is as muted on left wing personalities too. You are one of the most aggressive lefty Remainers on here, but even you don't seem to have the sizzle you used to.
    Because its like the Tortoises holding up the world only now Its just Shit, all the way down.
    Bleakness is omnipresent.
    I disagree. Personally I am more hopeful about the world than ever. I think the woke scolds have largely lost the argument. The authoritarian right have been defeated in the USA and Brazil. Russia, a malevolent presence, have been destroyed as a military power. China is isolated and screwed from COVID. The world is facing fantastic economic growth again.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
    You're going back a bit with these names. Socrates, Tim, Rod Crosby. None of them have been on here since I joined. Is this antediluvian period PB we're talking about? Before the asteroid hit?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,650
    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    But usually whoever is out of power and about to come into it is full of energy and vigor. But this place is as muted on left wing personalities too. You are one of the most aggressive lefty Remainers on here, but even you don't seem to have the sizzle you used to.
    Because its like the Tortoises holding up the world only now Its just Shit, all the way down.
    Bleakness is omnipresent.
    I disagree. Personally I am more hopeful about the world than ever. I think the woke scolds have largely lost the argument. The authoritarian right have been defeated in the USA and Brazil. Russia, a malevolent presence, have been destroyed as a military power. China is isolated and screwed from COVID. The world is facing fantastic economic growth again.
    I hope youre right, i suspect the exact opposite is the case economically, personally
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 895
    Reading the discussion about PB itself - just to turn things round, is it possible we've been 'spoiled' over the past few years with an endless rush of events. And now there's what feels like even a little gap we're all left with a come-down and hoping for the next fix?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,344
    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    But usually whoever is out of power and about to come into it is full of energy and vigor. But this place is as muted on left wing personalities too. You are one of the most aggressive lefty Remainers on here, but even you don't seem to have the sizzle you used to.
    Because its like the Tortoises holding up the world only now Its just Shit, all the way down.
    Bleakness is omnipresent.
    I disagree. Personally I am more hopeful about the world than ever. I think the woke scolds have largely lost the argument. The authoritarian right have been defeated in the USA and Brazil. Russia, a malevolent presence, have been destroyed as a military power. China is isolated and screwed from COVID. The world is facing fantastic economic growth again.
    On the other hand, the idea that we should pay reparations for the industrial revolution is becoming mainstream so you might be declaring victory prematurely.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 10,222
    edited November 2022
    kinabalu said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
    You're going back a bit with these names. Socrates, Tim, Rod Crosby. None of them have been on here since I joined. Is this antediluvian period PB we're talking about? Before the asteroid hit?
    It's amusing as for a long time I thought you were Tim, but I never said anything as I don't believe in doxxing.

    Don't think that anymore, but you have a very similar style and viewpoint so it's a shame you missed him.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 24,023
    ohnotnow said:

    Reading the discussion about PB itself - just to turn things round, is it possible we've been 'spoiled' over the past few years with an endless rush of events. And now there's what feels like even a little gap we're all left with a come-down and hoping for the next fix?

    Funnily enough, I'm quite happy for things to quieten down (and, I don't just mean because I don't want war, disease, etc.). The 2010-2015 parliament was good because we had lots of time to wonder how things would play out. And it feels like we're finally back to something like that, which I think is more interesting.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    edited November 2022

    kinabalu said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
    You're going back a bit with these names. Socrates, Tim, Rod Crosby. None of them have been on here since I joined. Is this antediluvian period PB we're talking about? Before the asteroid hit?
    It's amusing as for a long time I thought you were Tim, but I never said anything as I don't believe in doxxing.

    Don't think that anymore, but you have a very similar style and viewpoint so it's a shame you missed him.
    @kinabalu is far too gentle to be Tim.

    Tim had a brilliant vitriolic style but he could be properly nasty. I miss him

    He was doxxed by Plato - who is now dead. RIP
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,343
    kinabalu said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
    You're going back a bit with these names. Socrates, Tim, Rod Crosby. None of them have been on here since I joined. Is this antediluvian period PB we're talking about? Before the asteroid hit?
    You youngsters. No idea what it was like in the good old days.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,423
    If I were Musk I'd suspend Twitter altogether for at least a year or 18 months. He can afford to do it. Give everyone a rest from the platform for a while, and then decide whether to put it back up again.
  • WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    But usually whoever is out of power and about to come into it is full of energy and vigor. But this place is as muted on left wing personalities too. You are one of the most aggressive lefty Remainers on here, but even you don't seem to have the sizzle you used to.
    I don't regard myself as a Lefty, but it's interesting you got that impression. During the Brexit wars I did go a bit full-guns-blazing for the Remain side. That was mainly because I felt the PB Remainers were in a minority and subject to nasty Leaver bullying (from some quarters) so tried to even things up. Politics now just feels like a wasteland, and we're all just waiting for Sir Keir to come along in two years and see what, if anything, he can do about it all. (Even the grim excitement of a possible Boris comeback seems to have withered away.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    Andy_JS said:

    If I were Musk I'd suspend Twitter altogether for at least a year or 18 months. He can afford to do it. Give everyone a rest from the platform for a while, and then decide whether to put it back up again.

    If he did that Twitter would die as everyone would immediately migrate somewhere else. And his $44bn would be lost forever
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965
    edited November 2022

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 895
    tlg86 said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Reading the discussion about PB itself - just to turn things round, is it possible we've been 'spoiled' over the past few years with an endless rush of events. And now there's what feels like even a little gap we're all left with a come-down and hoping for the next fix?

    Funnily enough, I'm quite happy for things to quieten down (and, I don't just mean because I don't want war, disease, etc.). The 2010-2015 parliament was good because we had lots of time to wonder how things would play out. And it feels like we're finally back to something like that, which I think is more interesting.
    Yeah - I'm more than happy for the crazy-dial to be turned back down too. Just idly wondering if we're in the doldrums a little as we reset ourselves from a fire-hose of events to a more gentle babbling brook (with the occasional set of mild rapids).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,829
    edited November 2022
    Nigelb said:

    David Herdson, Alastair Meeks and Cyclefree all need to come back, IMHO. Great op-eds and below the line.

    I'd even have Rod Crosby (because he made us all a lot of money) and simply mod/delete any of his holocaust posts.

    I don't think the mods have the time to actively monitor the site like that, and can quite understand their drawing a line, FWIW.

    Otherwise, strongly agree.

    What did happen with Cyclefree ? I really miss her contributions.
    Me too re the last two sentences. (And the third sounds sensible, but I was here after RC anyway so can't usefully comment!)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505

    WillG said:

    A question for

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact you're still here is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    What are my comments that make me lucky to be here? Slamming Russia?
    I thought I was responding to Leon. Already edited my comment.
    You were!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”


    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,265
    There does seem to be an inexhaustible supply of Russians prepared to sign up to being complete and utter twats.

    As if there aren't enough on the Russian media, here's the "Let's bomb Washington!" marchers:

    https://twitter.com/RemiSimasius/status/1591421344184418305
  • TresTres Posts: 1,536

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Its the Pussification of the world generally. Having a view is a sin now, unless its the permitted/accepted view, then its a virtue to be displayed on a badge for all to admire.
    We live in a world where a tit hoofing a couple of tomatoes about in a fit of pique is a 'bully'.
    Clown World.
    Not sure that's true. The site below the liners have spent 12 months banging on about woke and completely missed dark brandon.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,567

    Will be interesting to see how/if this shifts with the budget:

    Is the UK Government currently taking the right measures to address the economic repercussions of the coronavirus pandemic? (6 November)

    No 45% (+1)
    Yes 35% (-2)
    Don’t know 20% (+2)

    Changes +/- 30 October




    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1591358939509231619

    I'd be interesting in a longer term view on that question, as it feels like one of those political polling questions where the government is not usually given a positive score, or not by much, even in good times.
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
    You're going back a bit with these names. Socrates, Tim, Rod Crosby. None of them have been on here since I joined. Is this antediluvian period PB we're talking about? Before the asteroid hit?
    It's amusing as for a long time I thought you were Tim, but I never said anything as I don't believe in doxxing.

    Don't think that anymore, but you have a very similar style and viewpoint so it's a shame you missed him.
    @kinabalu is far too gentle to be Tim.

    Tim had a brilliant vitriolic style but he could be properly nasty. I miss him

    He was doxxed by Plato - who is now dead. RIP
    It was actually the long-gone poster EdP who did the doxxing. Plato merely used this information to create a link to tim's house on Google street, which anyone else who saw the address could also have done. tim was then then doxxed further by another long-gone poster, SeanT, who revealed tim's true identity with a post to an article in the Manchester Evening News (or wherever). tim claimed that these incidents allowed him to become a victim of actual identity theft. He left and never returned.
  • Sunak deserves all the scrutiny he is getting for prioritising other things over a zero-tolerance approach to bullying. But just in case anyone thinks it’s a one-sided problem - this is what Margaret Beckett said about Bercow’s *appalling* behaviour.

    [Ms Beckett told Radio 4's PM programme that "the constitutional future of this country...trumps bad behaviour".]

    https://twitter.com/soniasodha/status/1591413690892705793

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,567
    edited November 2022
    Leon said:

    16C, bright warm sunshine, no clouds, barely a puff of a breeze. Feels like a lovely day in late April, not mid November. Quite jarring

    Saw a guy wandering about topless. With little breeze about and some sun, I doubt he was that nippy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,307
    This is an interesting interview. I know people get very worked up about the current social arguments going on but the lady/parent seems very reasonable.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNYAs7LXHXI

    A few things to bear in mind. Parents can't access the materials that their children are being taught because of the copyright of the content providers? Since when do schools purchase their classroom content anyway? I thought there was a national curriculum? Even the governors were struggling to see the material that was being taught! My guess is the providers were likely American - certainly from how the content is being described.

    Another worry is the political indoctrination. Singing songs about the prime minister being a racist doesn't seem wise to me whatever offensive remarks he may have made. I wouldn't want them singing songs about Jeremy Corbyn being an anti semite either.

    The sex stuff feels a bit weird. Encouraging them to be sex 'positive' by which they apparently mean seeing it in terms of pleasure rather than a relationship. Am I being a little cynical in wondering about the motives of the people (men?) behind such theories? It does only appear to have been one or two lessons so perhaps one shouldn't get carried away.

    It's a Labour dominated area, likely London and of course there have always been issues with schools in certain Labour councils. My grandparents were certainly careful to conceal their Conservative voting habits when teaching in the south Wales valleys. 'You'd never get a job if they knew that' being the motto. Ironically one of the things that might improve the situation would be PR in local government. A more likely outcome under a left of centre government at Westminster.
  • vinovino Posts: 140
    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,307
    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    I think you'll find that was an endorsement of the like button actually or an attempt at humour. I never used to pay attention to it but I do now. Cicero got about 15 likes yesterday.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,135
    A few simple rules for debate

    1) Play the ball not the person. Ah, but you cry, Fred is evil and stupid and must be told so… No, this never improves things.

    A tiny number of people can swear blog without causing offende. You (whoever you are) almost certainly can’t do that.

    2) Doxxing people never works. Again, the cry is raised, in *this case* it is justified. And again, it is always a fail.

    3) When discussion gets heated, post cooking recipes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,567
    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
    You're going back a bit with these names. Socrates, Tim, Rod Crosby. None of them have been on here since I joined. Is this antediluvian period PB we're talking about? Before the asteroid hit?
    You youngsters. No idea what it was like in the good old days.
    I'm almost but not quite nostalgic. Sure, I was thinner and had a better hairline in my early 20s, but on the other hand I'm now more well off and know a surprising amount about electoral systems, train platforms and first class travel lounges.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,802
    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,296
    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    So your diagnosis for Meeks, Cyclefree, Herdson departing is that there wasn't ENOUGH rudeness and far-right cosplay for them?
    And there it is. Another predictable, prissy, pompous comment from some meaningless left wing prick who has never said anything interesting ever. All you do is kill the site, bit by bit, with this hysterical censorious drivel
    Shorter @Leon
    Any implied criticism of me is tedious, pompous and unjustified.

    Sounds pretty 'hysterical' to me.

  • Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    You can't ban people from Mastodon. The most you can do is disconnect from servers that don't ban them.

    One of the weird things about the current migration is that it's happening as a reaction to Elon Musk, but on a technical level the problems that Mastodon solves are mainly the problems that Elon Musk was complaining about. There's definitely a lack of balance right now but hopefully Elon will do something to annoy right-wing people and they'll start to move as well.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”


    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy

    Brexit a bit like if you buy a set of tools to fix up your house, and then the family member is so proud of the tools they wear it on a tool belt anywhere and don't actually do any fixing.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,307
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    16C, bright warm sunshine, no clouds, barely a puff of a breeze. Feels like a lovely day in late April, not mid November. Quite jarring

    Saw a guy wandering about topless. With little breeze about and some sun, I doubt he was that nippy.
    Sounds like the sort of behaviour you'd expect from the Russian President. I doubt he's too pleased about the mild weather though.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    edited November 2022

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    CarlottaVance despite the brickbats thrown her way by some of our Scottish contingent is the only one I can think of still posting regularly.
    Is @MoonRabbit not genuinely a horse racing fanatic lesbian then?
    LOL. After that first race scrub horse racing and add bunked off school. It took two weeks to convince PB I wasn’t a foreign bot new to English Language. One year in they are still teaching me English Grammar!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,423
    kinabalu said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
    You're going back a bit with these names. Socrates, Tim, Rod Crosby. None of them have been on here since I joined. Is this antediluvian period PB we're talking about? Before the asteroid hit?
    About 4 years ago.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 2,791
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    16C, bright warm sunshine, no clouds, barely a puff of a breeze. Feels like a lovely day in late April, not mid November. Quite jarring

    Saw a guy wandering about topless. With little breeze about and some sun, I doubt he was that nippy.
    Was out in Glasgow last night in just a shirt. Rain arrived at 4am and got soaked, but wasn't cold at all.

    Very weird
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965
    edited November 2022
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”

    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy
    It all has the air of going through the motions to justify a mistake.

    Yes, there were people who voted Leave for this kind of "letters to the times" reason of the EU being incompatible with what in their mind "sovereignty" and "democracy" means - a noddy reductive and dated definition of these things imo but nevertheless arguable.

    However, in practice we Brexited to stop Free Movement. That was the killer issue that tipped the vote. Everyone knows this really. So all of the "should have been Norway for now" and retrospective longing for "EFTA" etc from these "Liberal Leavers" (who are way overrepresented on PB) is for the birds. As tbf are the claims of Remainers that this could have happened.

    The truth is that only a Hard Brexit was politically possible - any other would have got the Tory PM who proposed it ousted - and Hard Brexit makes us significantly poorer, culturally and economically, with no benefits beyond the ephemeral. A mistake. A bad bad mistake.

    You know this. I know you do. Hence your rhetoric on it being either half-hearted or the other extreme - OTT and performative.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    edited November 2022
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”

    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy
    It all has the air of going through the motions to justify a mistake.

    Yes, there were people who voted Leave for this kind of "letters to the times" reason of the EU being incompatible with what in their mind "sovereignty" and "democracy" means - a noddy reductive and dated definition of these things imo but nevertheless arguable.

    However, in practice we Brexited to stop Free Movement. That was the killer issue that tipped the vote. Everyone knows this really. So all of this "should have been Norway for now" and retrospective longing for "EFTA" etc from these "Liberal Leavers" (who are way overrepresented on PB) is for the birds. As tbf are the claims of Remainers that this could have happened.

    The truth is that only a Hard Brexit was politically possible - any other would have got the Tory PM who proposed it ousted - and Hard Brexit makes us significantly poorer, culturally and economically, with no benefits beyond the ephemeral. A mistake. A bad bad mistake.

    You know this. I know you do. Hence your rhetoric on it being either half-hearted or the other extreme - OTT and performative.
    I mean, you're wrong. You are simply wrong. I am honest with myself and honest with the site on this issue

    If we had the vote again, I would - with great anguish - vote Leave again. For the selfsame reasons that I voted Leave before. Sovereignty. All else is subsidiary. I would love a softer Brexit but even a Hard Brexit is preferable to Remaining (tho it is a close run thing)

    This is another way you narrow minded lefty twits kill off debate. You refuse to believe your interlocutor and project your values on tothem. So debating becomes utterly fucking pointless. If you're not going to accept my honestly expressed opinions as being my true opinions, where do we go from there?

    You and your ilk are part of the PB problem

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

  • vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    I can't believe that's true, I'm genuine working class, I worked as a roofing contractor for 25 years, gambling and an interest in politics is not the sole preserve of the Middle classes, especially gambling
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,866
    edited November 2022

    kinabalu said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
    You're going back a bit with these names. Socrates, Tim, Rod Crosby. None of them have been on here since I joined. Is this antediluvian period PB we're talking about? Before the asteroid hit?
    It's amusing as for a long time I thought you were Tim, but I never said anything as I don't believe in doxxing.

    Don't think that anymore, but you have a very similar style and viewpoint so it's a shame you missed him.
    Tim was centrist Blairite dad to his bones & loathed Corbyn & the Labour left. Don’t think that’s Kinabalu.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,307
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”

    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy
    It all has the air of going through the motions to justify a mistake.

    Yes, there were people who voted Leave for this kind of "letters to the times" reason of the EU being incompatible with what in their mind "sovereignty" and "democracy" means - a noddy reductive and dated definition of these things imo but nevertheless arguable.

    However, in practice we Brexited to stop Free Movement. That was the killer issue that tipped the vote. Everyone knows this really. So all of this "should have been Norway for now" and retrospective longing for "EFTA" etc from these "Liberal Leavers" (who are way overrepresented on PB) is for the birds. As tbf are the claims of Remainers that this could have happened.

    The truth is that only a Hard Brexit was politically possible - any other would have got the Tory PM who proposed it ousted - and Hard Brexit makes us significantly poorer, culturally and economically, with no benefits beyond the ephemeral. A mistake. A bad bad mistake.

    You know this. I know you do. Hence your rhetoric on it being either half-hearted or the other extreme - OTT and performative.
    I mean, you're wrong. You are simply wrong. I am honest with myself and honest with the site on this issue

    If we had the vote again, I would - with great anguish - vote Leave again. For the selfsame reasons that I voted Leave before. Sovereignty. All else is subsidiary. I would love a softer Brexit but even a Hard Brexit is preferable to Remaining (tho it is a close run thing)

    This is another way you narrow minded lefty twits kill off debate. You refuse to believe your interlocutor and project your values on tothem. So debating becomes utterly fucking pointless. If you're not going to accept my honestly expressed opinions as being my true opinions, where do we go from there?

    You and your ilk are part of the PB problem

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    I think you'll find that was an endorsement of the like button actually or an attempt at humour. I never used to pay attention to it but I do now. Cicero got about 15 likes yesterday.
    You see? We really shouldn't be caring about "likes" but we do. It infantilises us. GET RID

    We could at least have a temporary suspension of them, and see if it improves debate?
    For you it may be about getting a young lady to come up to your room. For others it is about getting a 'like'.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,738
    edited November 2022

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    CarlottaVance despite the brickbats thrown her way by some of our Scottish contingent is the only one I can think of still posting regularly.
    Is @MoonRabbit not genuinely a horse racing fanatic lesbian then?
    LOL. After that first race scrub horse racing and add bunked off school. It took two weeks to convince PB I wasn’t a foreign bot new to English Language. One year in they are still teaching me English Grammar!
    Yes but to be fair your posts often lie somewhere between navigating a labyrinth and wading through treacle.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,296

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    CarlottaVance despite the brickbats thrown her way by some of our Scottish contingent is the only one I can think of still posting regularly.
    Is @MoonRabbit not genuinely a horse racing fanatic lesbian then?
    LOL. After that first race scrub horse racing and add bunked off school. It took two weeks to convince PB I wasn’t a foreign bot new to English Language. One year in they are still teaching me English Grammar!
    And not even charging you ?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,296
    Stocky said:

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    CarlottaVance despite the brickbats thrown her way by some of our Scottish contingent is the only one I can think of still posting regularly.
    Is @MoonRabbit not genuinely a horse racing fanatic lesbian then?
    LOL. After that first race scrub horse racing and add bunked off school. It took two weeks to convince PB I wasn’t a foreign bot new to English Language. One year in they are still teaching me English Grammar!
    Yes but to be fair your posts often lie somewhere between navigating a labyrinth and wading through treacle.
    I like them.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503

    BREAKING: Sky’s international correspondent @alexrossiSKY is welcomed by crowds of Ukrainian civilians as Sky News team are the first foreign journalists to reach the liberated city of Kherson.

    Live updates: trib.al/QTC8as2


    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1591358914255257602

    I hope G20 attendees keep playing these videos on their phones anytime Lavrov is around….

    Wow, astonishing pictures :cry: 🇺🇦
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,307

    kinabalu said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
    You're going back a bit with these names. Socrates, Tim, Rod Crosby. None of them have been on here since I joined. Is this antediluvian period PB we're talking about? Before the asteroid hit?
    It's amusing as for a long time I thought you were Tim, but I never said anything as I don't believe in doxxing.

    Don't think that anymore, but you have a very similar style and viewpoint so it's a shame you missed him.
    If it makes you feel better I was convinced for a while that tim was Alastair Campbell. After he stated that Blair had balls for intervening abroad.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 895

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,738
    edited November 2022
    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    CarlottaVance despite the brickbats thrown her way by some of our Scottish contingent is the only one I can think of still posting regularly.
    Is @MoonRabbit not genuinely a horse racing fanatic lesbian then?
    LOL. After that first race scrub horse racing and add bunked off school. It took two weeks to convince PB I wasn’t a foreign bot new to English Language. One year in they are still teaching me English Grammar!
    Yes but to be fair your posts often lie somewhere between navigating a labyrinth and wading through treacle.
    I like them.

    So do I - I'm just teasing.
  • vinovino Posts: 140
    mickydroy said:

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    I can't believe that's true, I'm genuine working class, I worked as a roofing contractor for 25 years, gambling and an interest in politics is not the sole preserve of the Middle classes, especially gambling
    Yes it was my interest in gambling on politics that first attracted me to this site a long time ago and there are many contributers to this site whose opinion I value - I'm a member of a U3A discusion group who are all in the same age range so often we really need a much younger person to give us their views which I'm sure would be different
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,231
    Heavy police prescence in Oxford today for a Just Stop Oil demo.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,567
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    I have a compulsive twitch in my finger that causes me to spam likes indiscrimimately. Apologies if that damages anyones self esteem.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,738
    Phil said:

    Heavy police prescence in Oxford today for a Just Stop Oil demo.

    My wife and daughters are in Oxford today - i thought the protests had ceased.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    edited November 2022
    Done okay without a jockey! The jockey was the handicap. 🤣
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    CarlottaVance despite the brickbats thrown her way by some of our Scottish contingent is the only one I can think of still posting regularly.
    Is @MoonRabbit not genuinely a horse racing fanatic lesbian then?
    LOL. After that first race scrub horse racing and add bunked off school. It took two weeks to convince PB I wasn’t a foreign bot new to English Language. One year in they are still teaching me English Grammar!
    Yes but to be fair your posts often lie somewhere between navigating a labyrinth and wading through treacle.
    I like them.

    I’m getting punchier 🥊
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”

    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy
    It all has the air of going through the motions to justify a mistake.

    Yes, there were people who voted Leave for this kind of "letters to the times" reason of the EU being incompatible with what in their mind "sovereignty" and "democracy" means - a noddy reductive and dated definition of these things imo but nevertheless arguable.

    However, in practice we Brexited to stop Free Movement. That was the killer issue that tipped the vote. Everyone knows this really. So all of this "should have been Norway for now" and retrospective longing for "EFTA" etc from these "Liberal Leavers" (who are way overrepresented on PB) is for the birds. As tbf are the claims of Remainers that this could have happened.

    The truth is that only a Hard Brexit was politically possible - any other would have got the Tory PM who proposed it ousted - and Hard Brexit makes us significantly poorer, culturally and economically, with no benefits beyond the ephemeral. A mistake. A bad bad mistake.

    You know this. I know you do. Hence your rhetoric on it being either half-hearted or the other extreme - OTT and performative.
    I mean, you're wrong. You are simply wrong. I am honest with myself and honest with the site on this issue

    If we had the vote again, I would - with great anguish - vote Leave again. For the selfsame reasons that I voted Leave before. Sovereignty. All else is subsidiary. I would love a softer Brexit but even a Hard Brexit is preferable to Remaining (tho it is a close run thing)

    This is another way you narrow minded lefty twits kill off debate. You refuse to believe your interlocutor and project your values on tothem. So debating becomes utterly fucking pointless. If you're not going to accept my honestly expressed opinions as being my true opinions, where do we go from there?

    You and your ilk are part of the PB problem

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    I think you'll find that was an endorsement of the like button actually or an attempt at humour. I never used to pay attention to it but I do now. Cicero got about 15 likes yesterday.
    You see? We really shouldn't be caring about "likes" but we do. It infantilises us. GET RID

    We could at least have a temporary suspension of them, and see if it improves debate?
    You talk about those you disagree with projecting their values on to other people, and yet you say "we" care about likes. Personally I couldn't give a sh*t for likes. I vomit on the ground that they grew out of. I despise every single thing about them. They obviously foster a pulled-by-a-nosering herd mentality. They demean our species.

    They are just another way that advertising and surveillance companies have degraded the culture. "I like what you did", "You are my friend", "Let's share" - these all used to mean something healthy and life-enhancing. Now they mostly just mean worthless sh*t. In fact it's worse than that. Clicking on a button becomes similar to a heel-click.

    But you reach the right conclusion! And I like that! I second your request for likes to be suspended.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872
    Are you watching Southgate? Toney scores twice against Man C.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,802
    Eabhal said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    16C, bright warm sunshine, no clouds, barely a puff of a breeze. Feels like a lovely day in late April, not mid November. Quite jarring

    Saw a guy wandering about topless. With little breeze about and some sun, I doubt he was that nippy.
    Was out in Glasgow last night in just a shirt. Rain arrived at 4am and got soaked, but wasn't cold at all.

    Very weird
    "Was out in Glasgow last night in just a shirt. "

    Feel glad the local gadgies left you with the shirt... ;)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,829
    Stocky said:

    Phil said:

    Heavy police prescence in Oxford today for a Just Stop Oil demo.

    My wife and daughters are in Oxford today - i thought the protests had ceased.
    Nice to see the younger generation taking an active part in the political questions of the day, alongside the previous generation!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,749
    Phil said:

    Heavy police prescence in Oxford today for a Just Stop Oil demo.

    Presumably all brought in by car?
This discussion has been closed.