Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

The money goes on DeSantis to win WH2024 – politicalbetting.com

13

Comments

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,423

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    Why has Cyclefree left the site?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872
    Eabhal said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    16C, bright warm sunshine, no clouds, barely a puff of a breeze. Feels like a lovely day in late April, not mid November. Quite jarring

    Saw a guy wandering about topless. With little breeze about and some sun, I doubt he was that nippy.
    Was out in Glasgow last night in just a shirt. Rain arrived at 4am and got soaked, but wasn't cold at all.

    Very weird
    Urine?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,829
    DavidL said:

    Eabhal said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    16C, bright warm sunshine, no clouds, barely a puff of a breeze. Feels like a lovely day in late April, not mid November. Quite jarring

    Saw a guy wandering about topless. With little breeze about and some sun, I doubt he was that nippy.
    Was out in Glasgow last night in just a shirt. Rain arrived at 4am and got soaked, but wasn't cold at all.

    Very weird
    Urine?
    No, he couldn't have been at the football at that time.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965
    Leon, sorry the quoting's gone to pot -

    I'm prepared to believe you wanted Brexit for the high minded reasons you say. High minded but also, I'd add, a touch precious given other countries don't seem to think their sovereignty is despoiled by EU membership.

    My point is that I reckon you now see - or at the very least suspect - that in practice it was bound to work out badly because it needed to tap into fantasy and xenophobia to get over the line and enacted.

    See, I'm not killing debate, I'm having it. Even on a Saturday when I have a runny nose.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,802
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    I think we went a period without a 'like' button (I think at one stage we had a 'dislike' as well), and loads of people just posted 'I agree!' posts. It's a good way of acknowledging a post without (further) clogging up the thread.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,272
    kinabalu said:

    Leon, sorry the quoting's gone to pot -

    I'm prepared to believe you wanted Brexit for the high minded reasons you say. High minded but also, I'd add, a touch precious given other countries don't seem to think their sovereignty is despoiled by EU membership.

    My point is that I reckon you now see - or at the very least suspect - that in practice it was bound to work out badly because it needed to tap into fantasy and xenophobia to get over the line and enacted.

    See, I'm not killing debate, I'm having it. Even on a Saturday when I have a runny nose.

    I thought that around the time of the Brexit vote there was someone with a similar writing style to Leon fantasising about deporting or interning all British Muslims because he was offended. I may be misremembering.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,231
    Stocky said:

    Phil said:

    Heavy police prescence in Oxford today for a Just Stop Oil demo.

    My wife and daughters are in Oxford today - i thought the protests had ceased.
    Saw a lot of police hanging around vehicles in side streets, but not the demo. Maybe I was misinformed?
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited November 2022
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”

    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy
    It all has the air of going through the motions to justify a mistake.

    Yes, there were people who voted Leave for this kind of "letters to the times" reason of the EU being incompatible with what in their mind "sovereignty" and "democracy" means - a noddy reductive and dated definition of these things imo but nevertheless arguable.

    However, in practice we Brexited to stop Free Movement. That was the killer issue that tipped the vote. Everyone knows this really. So all of this "should have been Norway for now" and retrospective longing for "EFTA" etc from these "Liberal Leavers" (who are way overrepresented on PB) is for the birds. As tbf are the claims of Remainers that this could have happened.

    The truth is that only a Hard Brexit was politically possible - any other would have got the Tory PM who proposed it ousted - and Hard Brexit makes us significantly poorer, culturally and economically, with no benefits beyond the ephemeral. A mistake. A bad bad mistake.

    You know this. I know you do. Hence your rhetoric on it being either half-hearted or the other extreme - OTT and performative.
    I mean, you're wrong. You are simply wrong. I am honest with myself and honest with the site on this issue

    If we had the vote again, I would - with great anguish - vote Leave again. For the selfsame reasons that I voted Leave before. Sovereignty. All else is subsidiary. I would love a softer Brexit but even a Hard Brexit is preferable to Remaining (tho it is a close run thing).
    Why is it a close run thing if you are rock certain that "all else is subsidiary" to sovereignty and that being on the outside means sovereignty whereas being a member of the club means the absence of sovereignty? A choice of hard Brexit over Remaining follows logically from that position.

    The problem is that talk of "sovereignty" is cack. Did you know the Isle of Man is sovereign? "So what?" I hear people ask. Good question. That's my point.

    Britain has signed treaties. That means it's limited in what it can do. That's a limitation on its sovereignty. Oh no, wait, it's not the negation of its sovereignty because in time of emergency, or for reasons of national security, or because someone looked at someone else's girlfriend, it can always renege on any treaty it wants to renege on. That actually applies to all international treaties. Of course big problems with trade, with diplomacy, or with creditworthiness - in short, in relationships with other "actors" whether state or international or private or oligarchic - may then ensue. Which might mean diarrhoea, or worse, raining down on the heads of British citizens. Which may or may not be preferable to whatever the result of not reneging on the treaty would have been.

    ^ That's a summary of reality. "Sovereignty" is pie in the sky, a topic fit for student debsocs and for those who haven't grown up much since they were in them.





  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 18,053
    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965
    EPG said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon, sorry the quoting's gone to pot -

    I'm prepared to believe you wanted Brexit for the high minded reasons you say. High minded but also, I'd add, a touch precious given other countries don't seem to think their sovereignty is despoiled by EU membership.

    My point is that I reckon you now see - or at the very least suspect - that in practice it was bound to work out badly because it needed to tap into fantasy and xenophobia to get over the line and enacted.

    See, I'm not killing debate, I'm having it. Even on a Saturday when I have a runny nose.

    I thought that around the time of the Brexit vote there was someone with a similar writing style to Leon fantasising about deporting or interning all British Muslims because he was offended. I may be misremembering.
    I can totally believe it - but that was before my time.

    "Before my time" has an overly grave feel, doesn't it? Think I'll drop it as a phrase.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965

    kinabalu said:

    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    I’m officially diagnosing a PB ailment. I’ve noticed it the last few days, but I’m mentioning it now as it seems apposite

    We’ve got a narrowing of voices and a reduction in debate. Not sure why. Perhaps too many valuable contributors have left or been banned or got chased off - dunno

    It could simply be because politics itself has narrowed. The socio-economic outlook is grim. There are no good options now. Also, Brexit as a talking point is diminishing in value. Every aspect of it has been hashed and rehashed. There are no fresh angles. So chat becomes desultory. Also lots of thoughts are now verboten, things that can never be discussed

    If I had to characterise PB commentary right now it would be: lamentations. The world is going to shit, the government is dreck, all ministers are mad and evil, etc etc etc

    It becomes quite wearisome. But, we may just be reflecting grey new reality

    Is the world going to hell any more now than it was after the GFC? The entire world economy was collapsing, it wasn't clear we could cut interest rates low enough and we were all on a path to being Japan, and China and Russia were the new autocratic future. And in the UK, Cameron, Clegg and Miliband were the milquetoast leaders. Yet we still had very animated debate.

    I think the sanitized discussion here is a result of big names being banned. There is still plenty of aggression in other forums. It's just they didn't have the intellectual heft of this place, so that special balance has been lost.
    Very few who've gone have gone because they've been banned. This site has a very light youch moderation policy, the fact Leon is still here after so many bannings is testimony to that. I can only really think of iSam whose ban really ought to be lifted.

    Holocaust denial is beyond the pale and the rest left of their own choice, not banned.

    I think the biggest problem is we've had all the debates before. Debating things online is no longer fresh and novel, we all know each others views on Brexit (which is now years out of date) and every other issue.
    Also, wasn't it just RodCrosby that was gone due to Holocaust Denial? I think iSam and tim and Socrates were all banned too, but I don't really know.
    Tim left of his own choice I believe after being doxxed.

    Yes Rod was the Holocaust denial, which is why his ban shouldn't be lifted. Sam's should.

    I don't recall why Socrates left.
    You're going back a bit with these names. Socrates, Tim, Rod Crosby. None of them have been on here since I joined. Is this antediluvian period PB we're talking about? Before the asteroid hit?
    It's amusing as for a long time I thought you were Tim, but I never said anything as I don't believe in doxxing.

    Don't think that anymore, but you have a very similar style and viewpoint so it's a shame you missed him.
    Tim was centrist Blairite dad to his bones & loathed Corbyn & the Labour left. Don’t think that’s Kinabalu.
    Indeed not! I may have lost some left edge but it's still there and can pop out at any time.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,910
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    Is it an option the site administrator can choose not to have? Also, the off-topic button is otiose - people often signal "on topic" in their comment.

  • A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 18,053
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    You are very skilled at setting the agenda for discussion on a thread. Sometimes we end up talking about a right load of shite, but often the debate is very interesting.

    Yes, you go OTT at times, but you bring interesting perspectives and insights, having spent time reading through reams of stuff to supply us with a precis.

    Do I agree with you? Sometimes. Even if I didn't, I wouldn't be skimming past your posts. (Except for the photos of your dinner.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    You are very skilled at setting the agenda for discussion on a thread. Sometimes we end up talking about a right load of shite, but often the debate is very interesting.

    Yes, you go OTT at times, but you bring interesting perspectives and insights, having spent time reading through reams of stuff to supply us with a precis.

    Do I agree with you? Sometimes. Even if I didn't, I wouldn't be skimming past your posts. (Except for the photos of your dinner.)
    Shucks. Ta
  • vinovino Posts: 140

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    Snap - I'm a former Labour voting lad who did well in work and in marriage - would never have thought of buying a house if it wasn't for my better half - it's the "inside" bit isn't it that still makes you working class but so hard to define. I know I have a chip on my shoulder re the Labour Party Brexit stance which in area (Ashfield) a lot of voters appear to share hence the popularity of Ashfield Independents
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,059
    Americans are, more and more, sorting themselves out, politically. Some are even trying to do it legally:
    "The secessionist movement by conservative Oregon counties seeking to join Idaho continues to gather steam.

    "Residents in Morrow County and Wheeler County have voted in favor of a measure related to moving the state line between Oregon and Idaho, joining nine previous eastern Oregon counties to vote in support of 'Greater Idaho," KPTV reported. "The Oregon Secretary of State website shows on Wednesday afternoon that of 800 votes in Wheeler County, 58% were in favor, and of the 3,837 votes in Morrow County, 60% were in favor."

    Harney County joined the movement in the 2021 election, joining, "Lake, Grant, Baker, Malheur, Union, Sherman, and Jefferson"
    source:"https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/oregon-counties-vote-yes-on-secession-from-state-report/ar-AA13YP1u?li=BBnbfcL

    The Cascade mountains divide Oregon into a wet side, and a dry side, with far more people living on the wet side. (If you look at the county lines, about a third of the way from the Pacific, you can see where the crest is.)

    I think this sorting is bad for the US, in many ways.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965
    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    Yes that's a point. Should be considered, I agree. But say I did a post (a decent one) and then all the 'left team' posters quote-replied it in full with ecstatic one-liners like "+ 1000" or "terrific post!" or "this" or "preach brother preach" ... wouldn't that get on people's nerves?
  • House is basically evens now on Betfair for Republicans being in either the 210-219 seat band v. 220-229 seat band. Lots of slow and close races in California.

    If I had to call it I'd say we're inching very slowly to Republican taking it 219-216, but it's a coin flip to guess whether it'll end up at 219 or 220 that doesn't attract me.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965
    DavidL said:

    Are you watching Southgate? Toney scores twice against Man C.

    Are we getting excited about the Arse now?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,570
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    16C, bright warm sunshine, no clouds, barely a puff of a breeze. Feels like a lovely day in late April, not mid November. Quite jarring

    Saw a guy wandering about topless. With little breeze about and some sun, I doubt he was that nippy.
    Was not yesterday St Martins Day? The saint who cut his coat or blanket in half to give half to a beggar, and God then sent warm weather?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 18,053
    vino said:

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    Snap - I'm a former Labour voting lad who did well in work and in marriage - would never have thought of buying a house if it wasn't for my better half - it's the "inside" bit isn't it that still makes you working class but so hard to define. I know I have a chip on my shoulder re the Labour Party Brexit stance which in area (Ashfield) a lot of voters appear to share hence the popularity of Ashfield Independents
    The two Labour Parties.

    One, of the North London supper party.

    The other, of the pie and peas supper down the Working Men's Club.

    The first had stopped listening to the second.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965

    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    CarlottaVance despite the brickbats thrown her way by some of our Scottish contingent is the only one I can think of still posting regularly.
    Is @MoonRabbit not genuinely a horse racing fanatic lesbian then?
    LOL. After that first race scrub horse racing and add bunked off school. It took two weeks to convince PB I wasn’t a foreign bot new to English Language. One year in they are still teaching me English Grammar!
    Yes but to be fair your posts often lie somewhere between navigating a labyrinth and wading through treacle.
    I like them.

    I’m getting punchier 🥊
    Your midterms punditry (ex Nevada) was v good.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631
    edited November 2022
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    Yes that's a point. Should be considered, I agree. But say I did a post (a decent one) and then all the 'left team' posters quote-replied it in full with ecstatic one-liners like "+ 1000" or "terrific post!" or "this" or "preach brother preach" ... wouldn't that get on people's nerves?
    The Like button is simply a vile invention. It is the social media equivalent of fentanyl. It is designed to be horribly addictive, it brings nothing genuinely good, only negative emotions, even for the Liked. Ooh, I got 9 Likes, I will try and get more!

    The people that designed the Like button admit this, now, and many regret the innovation. It has been bad for the human soul. It is especially corrosive on a site like PB

    At the very least - if this is possible - we should try a temporary suspension, see if it improves things
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,631

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    You are very skilled at setting the agenda for discussion on a thread. Sometimes we end up talking about a right load of shite, but often the debate is very interesting.

    Yes, you go OTT at times, but you bring interesting perspectives and insights, having spent time reading through reams of stuff to supply us with a precis.

    Do I agree with you? Sometimes. Even if I didn't, I wouldn't be skimming past your posts. (Except for the photos of your dinner.)
    Shucks. Ta
    You could have given me a Like, you [email protected]!
    I was tempted to off-topic this
  • vinovino Posts: 140

    vino said:

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    Snap - I'm a former Labour voting lad who did well in work and in marriage - would never have thought of buying a house if it wasn't for my better half - it's the "inside" bit isn't it that still makes you working class but so hard to define. I know I have a chip on my shoulder re the Labour Party Brexit stance which in area (Ashfield) a lot of voters appear to share hence the popularity of Ashfield Independents
    The two Labour Parties.

    One, of the North London supper party.

    The other, of the pie and peas supper down the Working Men's Club.

    The first had stopped listening to the second.
    Good post and spot on
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Are you watching Southgate? Toney scores twice against Man C.

    Are we getting excited about the Arse now?
    Arse? Toney plays for Brentford City. Which makes the number of goals he has been knocking in all the more remarkable really.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 18,053
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    Yes that's a point. Should be considered, I agree. But say I did a post (a decent one) and then all the 'left team' posters quote-replied it in full with ecstatic one-liners like "+ 1000" or "terrific post!" or "this" or "preach brother preach" ... wouldn't that get on people's nerves?
    The Like button is simply a vile invention. It is the social media equivalent of fentanyl. It is designed to be horribly addictive, it brings nothing genuinely good, only negative emotions, even for the Liked. Ooh, I got 9 Likes, I will try and get more!

    The people that designed the Like button admit this, now, and many regret the innovation. It has been bad for the human soul. It is especially corrosive on a site like PB

    At the very least - if this is possible - we should try a temporary suspension, see if it improves things
    There's no Like button on Rail Forums! Mind, with their moderation policy you'd probably be banned after your first post.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,749

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    Yes that's a point. Should be considered, I agree. But say I did a post (a decent one) and then all the 'left team' posters quote-replied it in full with ecstatic one-liners like "+ 1000" or "terrific post!" or "this" or "preach brother preach" ... wouldn't that get on people's nerves?
    The Like button is simply a vile invention. It is the social media equivalent of fentanyl. It is designed to be horribly addictive, it brings nothing genuinely good, only negative emotions, even for the Liked. Ooh, I got 9 Likes, I will try and get more!

    The people that designed the Like button admit this, now, and many regret the innovation. It has been bad for the human soul. It is especially corrosive on a site like PB

    At the very least - if this is possible - we should try a temporary suspension, see if it improves things
    There's no Like button on Rail Forums! Mind, with their moderation policy you'd probably be banned after your first post.
    For derailing the conversation?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    We are running out of excuses (as well as capital). Sooner or later we need to start addressing our own deficiencies and stop looking for other people to blame. Save more. Borrow less. Become more self-sufficient. Work hard. Study hard. Invest. All the boring stuff.

    So much easier to blame Brexit or the BoE or government incompetence or some unearned sense of entitlement.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    Yes that's a point. Should be considered, I agree. But say I did a post (a decent one) and then all the 'left team' posters quote-replied it in full with ecstatic one-liners like "+ 1000" or "terrific post!" or "this" or "preach brother preach" ... wouldn't that get on people's nerves?
    The Like button is simply a vile invention. It is the social media equivalent of fentanyl. It is designed to be horribly addictive, it brings nothing genuinely good, only negative emotions, even for the Liked. Ooh, I got 9 Likes, I will try and get more!

    The people that designed the Like button admit this, now, and many regret the innovation. It has been bad for the human soul. It is especially corrosive on a site like PB

    At the very least - if this is possible - we should try a temporary suspension, see if it improves things
    I do know what you mean. Like the limitless scroll. Still, we're not teenagers are we. We're seasoned old units who've seen it all in our time. The like button isn't going to get the better of us. But, yes, I know what you mean.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,829
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    Yes that's a point. Should be considered, I agree. But say I did a post (a decent one) and then all the 'left team' posters quote-replied it in full with ecstatic one-liners like "+ 1000" or "terrific post!" or "this" or "preach brother preach" ... wouldn't that get on people's nerves?
    The Like button is simply a vile invention. It is the social media equivalent of fentanyl. It is designed to be horribly addictive, it brings nothing genuinely good, only negative emotions, even for the Liked. Ooh, I got 9 Likes, I will try and get more!

    The people that designed the Like button admit this, now, and many regret the innovation. It has been bad for the human soul. It is especially corrosive on a site like PB

    At the very least - if this is possible - we should try a temporary suspension, see if it improves things
    There's no Like button on Rail Forums! Mind, with their moderation policy you'd probably be banned after your first post.
    For derailing the conversation?
    Insufficient proper debating points.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 18,053
    Anyhow, I am about to start reading 'A Rising Man' by Abir Mukherjee. Historical crime fiction not my usual thing, but £2 from a charity shop, so I'll give it a go...
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976
    DJ41 said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”

    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy
    It all has the air of going through the motions to justify a mistake.

    Yes, there were people who voted Leave for this kind of "letters to the times" reason of the EU being incompatible with what in their mind "sovereignty" and "democracy" means - a noddy reductive and dated definition of these things imo but nevertheless arguable.

    However, in practice we Brexited to stop Free Movement. That was the killer issue that tipped the vote. Everyone knows this really. So all of this "should have been Norway for now" and retrospective longing for "EFTA" etc from these "Liberal Leavers" (who are way overrepresented on PB) is for the birds. As tbf are the claims of Remainers that this could have happened.

    The truth is that only a Hard Brexit was politically possible - any other would have got the Tory PM who proposed it ousted - and Hard Brexit makes us significantly poorer, culturally and economically, with no benefits beyond the ephemeral. A mistake. A bad bad mistake.

    You know this. I know you do. Hence your rhetoric on it being either half-hearted or the other extreme - OTT and performative.
    I mean, you're wrong. You are simply wrong. I am honest with myself and honest with the site on this issue

    If we had the vote again, I would - with great anguish - vote Leave again. For the selfsame reasons that I voted Leave before. Sovereignty. All else is subsidiary. I would love a softer Brexit but even a Hard Brexit is preferable to Remaining (tho it is a close run thing).
    Why is it a close run thing if you are rock certain that "all else is subsidiary" to sovereignty and that being on the outside means sovereignty whereas being a member of the club means the absence of sovereignty? A choice of hard Brexit over Remaining follows logically from that position.

    The problem is that talk of "sovereignty" is cack. Did you know the Isle of Man is sovereign? "So what?" I hear people ask. Good question. That's my point.

    Britain has signed treaties. That means it's limited in what it can do. That's a limitation on its sovereignty. Oh no, wait, it's not the negation of its sovereignty because in time of emergency, or for reasons of national security, or because someone looked at someone else's girlfriend, it can always renege on any treaty it wants to renege on. That actually applies to all international treaties. Of course big problems with trade, with diplomacy, or with creditworthiness - in short, in relationships with other "actors" whether state or international or private or oligarchic - may then ensue. Which might mean diarrhoea, or worse, raining down on the heads of British citizens. Which may or may not be preferable to whatever the result of not reneging on the treaty would have been.

    ^ That's a summary of reality. "Sovereignty" is pie in the sky, a topic fit for student debsocs and for those who haven't grown up much since they were in them.

    I find this idea that "sovereignty" is an abstract concept completely ridiculous. It's a basic question of how we are governed. The EU is fundamentally different to other international treaties in a very obvious and meaningful fashion. When you get a regular international treaty, it's there in black and white what you are agreeing to and then parliament can weigh it up in terms of pros and cons. The EU is ever changing and expanding. Not only from the parliament passing new rules in agreed areas of power, which is already a big black box when you sign a treaty, but also from the ECJ actually deciding to expand powers to new areas without treaty changes.

    And even worse than that, there is no check on the judges at all. In the UK, when some judge makes a ridiculous landmark decision, whether because of bias or poorly drafted laws, parliament can amend the law. That doesn't happen in the EU. Judges have untrammeled power and it cannot be overruled except by treaty change, which happens decades apart and isn't by a government elected by the people, but by a messy compromise difficult to see by the voters.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965

    House is basically evens now on Betfair for Republicans being in either the 210-219 seat band v. 220-229 seat band. Lots of slow and close races in California.

    If I had to call it I'd say we're inching very slowly to Republican taking it 219-216, but it's a coin flip to guess whether it'll end up at 219 or 220 that doesn't attract me.

    Hopefully you'll beat my £42 return for 4 digits staked.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 10,222
    edited November 2022
    Eabhal said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    16C, bright warm sunshine, no clouds, barely a puff of a breeze. Feels like a lovely day in late April, not mid November. Quite jarring

    Saw a guy wandering about topless. With little breeze about and some sun, I doubt he was that nippy.
    Was out in Glasgow last night in just a shirt. Rain arrived at 4am and got soaked, but wasn't cold at all.

    Very weird
    Just a shirt?

    I wouldn't visit many places without any pants on, let alone Glasgow.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    Tottenham concede first yet again.

    Will still beat Leeds though.
  • WillG said:

    DJ41 said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”

    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy
    It all has the air of going through the motions to justify a mistake.

    Yes, there were people who voted Leave for this kind of "letters to the times" reason of the EU being incompatible with what in their mind "sovereignty" and "democracy" means - a noddy reductive and dated definition of these things imo but nevertheless arguable.

    However, in practice we Brexited to stop Free Movement. That was the killer issue that tipped the vote. Everyone knows this really. So all of this "should have been Norway for now" and retrospective longing for "EFTA" etc from these "Liberal Leavers" (who are way overrepresented on PB) is for the birds. As tbf are the claims of Remainers that this could have happened.

    The truth is that only a Hard Brexit was politically possible - any other would have got the Tory PM who proposed it ousted - and Hard Brexit makes us significantly poorer, culturally and economically, with no benefits beyond the ephemeral. A mistake. A bad bad mistake.

    You know this. I know you do. Hence your rhetoric on it being either half-hearted or the other extreme - OTT and performative.
    I mean, you're wrong. You are simply wrong. I am honest with myself and honest with the site on this issue

    If we had the vote again, I would - with great anguish - vote Leave again. For the selfsame reasons that I voted Leave before. Sovereignty. All else is subsidiary. I would love a softer Brexit but even a Hard Brexit is preferable to Remaining (tho it is a close run thing).
    Why is it a close run thing if you are rock certain that "all else is subsidiary" to sovereignty and that being on the outside means sovereignty whereas being a member of the club means the absence of sovereignty? A choice of hard Brexit over Remaining follows logically from that position.

    The problem is that talk of "sovereignty" is cack. Did you know the Isle of Man is sovereign? "So what?" I hear people ask. Good question. That's my point.

    Britain has signed treaties. That means it's limited in what it can do. That's a limitation on its sovereignty. Oh no, wait, it's not the negation of its sovereignty because in time of emergency, or for reasons of national security, or because someone looked at someone else's girlfriend, it can always renege on any treaty it wants to renege on. That actually applies to all international treaties. Of course big problems with trade, with diplomacy, or with creditworthiness - in short, in relationships with other "actors" whether state or international or private or oligarchic - may then ensue. Which might mean diarrhoea, or worse, raining down on the heads of British citizens. Which may or may not be preferable to whatever the result of not reneging on the treaty would have been.

    ^ That's a summary of reality. "Sovereignty" is pie in the sky, a topic fit for student debsocs and for those who haven't grown up much since they were in them.

    I find this idea that "sovereignty" is an abstract concept completely ridiculous. It's a basic question of how we are governed. The EU is fundamentally different to other international treaties in a very obvious and meaningful fashion. When you get a regular international treaty, it's there in black and white what you are agreeing to and then parliament can weigh it up in terms of pros and cons. The EU is ever changing and expanding. Not only from the parliament passing new rules in agreed areas of power, which is already a big black box when you sign a treaty, but also from the ECJ actually deciding to expand powers to new areas without treaty changes.

    And even worse than that, there is no check on the judges at all. In the UK, when some judge makes a ridiculous landmark decision, whether because of bias or poorly drafted laws, parliament can amend the law. That doesn't happen in the EU. Judges have untrammeled power and it cannot be overruled except by treaty change, which happens decades apart and isn't by a government elected by the people, but by a messy compromise difficult to see by the voters.
    Precisely. Sovereignty isn't pie in the sky or a meaningless concept, it's a necessary part of democracy. That laws are decided by people we elect.

    If the EU is to have lawmaking powers then it should be sovereign with democratically elected legislators and governments decided at elections.

    Otherwise it's a simple failure of democracy. Those who think that EU being sovereign is nonsense, which is why it should have law making powers, miss the woods for the trees. That's the worst possible scenario.

    We should either have a democratic nation state, ie Brexit, or a democratic Federal state called Europe. Pick your poison, if you're not prepared to accept a democratic Federal State, then Brexit is the only democratic solution.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965
    vino said:

    vino said:

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    Snap - I'm a former Labour voting lad who did well in work and in marriage - would never have thought of buying a house if it wasn't for my better half - it's the "inside" bit isn't it that still makes you working class but so hard to define. I know I have a chip on my shoulder re the Labour Party Brexit stance which in area (Ashfield) a lot of voters appear to share hence the popularity of Ashfield Independents
    The two Labour Parties.

    One, of the North London supper party.

    The other, of the pie and peas supper down the Working Men's Club.

    The first had stopped listening to the second.
    Good post and spot on
    You liked that one then?
  • vinovino Posts: 140
    kinabalu said:

    vino said:

    vino said:

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    Snap - I'm a former Labour voting lad who did well in work and in marriage - would never have thought of buying a house if it wasn't for my better half - it's the "inside" bit isn't it that still makes you working class but so hard to define. I know I have a chip on my shoulder re the Labour Party Brexit stance which in area (Ashfield) a lot of voters appear to share hence the popularity of Ashfield Independents
    The two Labour Parties.

    One, of the North London supper party.

    The other, of the pie and peas supper down the Working Men's Club.

    The first had stopped listening to the second.
    Good post and spot on
    You liked that one then?
    really liked it!!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965

    vino said:

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    Snap - I'm a former Labour voting lad who did well in work and in marriage - would never have thought of buying a house if it wasn't for my better half - it's the "inside" bit isn't it that still makes you working class but so hard to define. I know I have a chip on my shoulder re the Labour Party Brexit stance which in area (Ashfield) a lot of voters appear to share hence the popularity of Ashfield Independents
    The two Labour Parties.

    One, of the North London supper party.

    The other, of the pie and peas supper down the Working Men's Club.

    The first had stopped listening to the second.
    Is Starmer forging the right balance iyo?
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976
    DavidL said:

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    We are running out of excuses (as well as capital). Sooner or later we need to start addressing our own deficiencies and stop looking for other people to blame. Save more. Borrow less. Become more self-sufficient. Work hard. Study hard. Invest. All the boring stuff.

    So much easier to blame Brexit or the BoE or government incompetence or some unearned sense of entitlement.
    While I partially agree with your point, I find the economic debate in the UK looks past all the technocratic stuff that can be done. It's all about right vs left or Leaver vs Remainer. And while those are worthwhile debates, it is only 30% of what matters.

    When Ireland confronted its long term economic malaise, EU subsidies were only a fraction of importance relative to the fact they developed the IDA. A unit in government entirely focused on growth that was THE best place to be for the smartest young Civil servants. Australia has a productivity commission that studies sector by sector the barriers to growth, and its recommendations are regularly incorporated into legislation.

    Where is the debate on how civil servants are incentivized long term? Right now they are encouraged to keep all their seniors happy, not rock the boat, and wait their turn for promotion. What can we do to rapidly get the brightest ones a broad range of experience, round out their full skillset and get put into positions to improve things? How can we reward them based on actual results?

    We have the odd debate about taxes and local government every 15 years, but it's decided at the whim of Chancellors mainly thinking about the reaction in the next day's papers. How can we change this dynamic? The OBR was a great step forward, and I am glad Truss got shredded for ignoring it, but we need more of that thinking.
  • WillG said:

    DJ41 said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”

    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy
    It all has the air of going through the motions to justify a mistake.

    Yes, there were people who voted Leave for this kind of "letters to the times" reason of the EU being incompatible with what in their mind "sovereignty" and "democracy" means - a noddy reductive and dated definition of these things imo but nevertheless arguable.

    However, in practice we Brexited to stop Free Movement. That was the killer issue that tipped the vote. Everyone knows this really. So all of this "should have been Norway for now" and retrospective longing for "EFTA" etc from these "Liberal Leavers" (who are way overrepresented on PB) is for the birds. As tbf are the claims of Remainers that this could have happened.

    The truth is that only a Hard Brexit was politically possible - any other would have got the Tory PM who proposed it ousted - and Hard Brexit makes us significantly poorer, culturally and economically, with no benefits beyond the ephemeral. A mistake. A bad bad mistake.

    You know this. I know you do. Hence your rhetoric on it being either half-hearted or the other extreme - OTT and performative.
    I mean, you're wrong. You are simply wrong. I am honest with myself and honest with the site on this issue

    If we had the vote again, I would - with great anguish - vote Leave again. For the selfsame reasons that I voted Leave before. Sovereignty. All else is subsidiary. I would love a softer Brexit but even a Hard Brexit is preferable to Remaining (tho it is a close run thing).
    Why is it a close run thing if you are rock certain that "all else is subsidiary" to sovereignty and that being on the outside means sovereignty whereas being a member of the club means the absence of sovereignty? A choice of hard Brexit over Remaining follows logically from that position.

    The problem is that talk of "sovereignty" is cack. Did you know the Isle of Man is sovereign? "So what?" I hear people ask. Good question. That's my point.

    Britain has signed treaties. That means it's limited in what it can do. That's a limitation on its sovereignty. Oh no, wait, it's not the negation of its sovereignty because in time of emergency, or for reasons of national security, or because someone looked at someone else's girlfriend, it can always renege on any treaty it wants to renege on. That actually applies to all international treaties. Of course big problems with trade, with diplomacy, or with creditworthiness - in short, in relationships with other "actors" whether state or international or private or oligarchic - may then ensue. Which might mean diarrhoea, or worse, raining down on the heads of British citizens. Which may or may not be preferable to whatever the result of not reneging on the treaty would have been.

    ^ That's a summary of reality. "Sovereignty" is pie in the sky, a topic fit for student debsocs and for those who haven't grown up much since they were in them.

    I find this idea that "sovereignty" is an abstract concept completely ridiculous. It's a basic question of how we are governed. The EU is fundamentally different to other international treaties in a very obvious and meaningful fashion. When you get a regular international treaty, it's there in black and white what you are agreeing to and then parliament can weigh it up in terms of pros and cons. The EU is ever changing and expanding. Not only from the parliament passing new rules in agreed areas of power, which is already a big black box when you sign a treaty, but also from the ECJ actually deciding to expand powers to new areas without treaty changes.

    And even worse than that, there is no check on the judges at all. In the UK, when some judge makes a ridiculous landmark decision, whether because of bias or poorly drafted laws, parliament can amend the law. That doesn't happen in the EU. Judges have untrammeled power and it cannot be overruled except by treaty change, which happens decades apart and isn't by a government elected by the people, but by a messy compromise difficult to see by the voters.
    Precisely. Sovereignty isn't pie in the sky or a meaningless concept, it's a necessary part of democracy. That laws are decided by people we elect.

    If the EU is to have lawmaking powers then it should be sovereign with democratically elected legislators and governments decided at elections.

    Otherwise it's a simple failure of democracy. Those who think that EU being sovereign is nonsense, which is why it should have law making powers, miss the woods for the trees. That's the worst possible scenario.

    We should either have a democratic nation state, ie Brexit, or a democratic Federal state called Europe. Pick your poison, if you're not prepared to accept a democratic Federal State, then Brexit is the only democratic solution.
    All sovereignty is shared District/Borough, County, Scots/Welsh/NI Assembly, Westminster - decisions made at the appropriate level. Then we agree to share sovereignty in UN peace keeping forces or with joint UK/US missions. It's horses for courses, we now have to fit in with what the EU decides in many cases without having a say in it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872
    WillG said:

    DavidL said:

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    We are running out of excuses (as well as capital). Sooner or later we need to start addressing our own deficiencies and stop looking for other people to blame. Save more. Borrow less. Become more self-sufficient. Work hard. Study hard. Invest. All the boring stuff.

    So much easier to blame Brexit or the BoE or government incompetence or some unearned sense of entitlement.
    While I partially agree with your point, I find the economic debate in the UK looks past all the technocratic stuff that can be done. It's all about right vs left or Leaver vs Remainer. And while those are worthwhile debates, it is only 30% of what matters.

    When Ireland confronted its long term economic malaise, EU subsidies were only a fraction of importance relative to the fact they developed the IDA. A unit in government entirely focused on growth that was THE best place to be for the smartest young Civil servants. Australia has a productivity commission that studies sector by sector the barriers to growth, and its recommendations are regularly incorporated into legislation.

    Where is the debate on how civil servants are incentivized long term? Right now they are encouraged to keep all their seniors happy, not rock the boat, and wait their turn for promotion. What can we do to rapidly get the brightest ones a broad range of experience, round out their full skillset and get put into positions to improve things? How can we reward them based on actual results?

    We have the odd debate about taxes and local government every 15 years, but it's decided at the whim of Chancellors mainly thinking about the reaction in the next day's papers. How can we change this dynamic? The OBR was a great step forward, and I am glad Truss got shredded for ignoring it, but we need more of that thinking.
    I think that 30% is excessively generous and you give some good examples of how other countries do it better. The idea that things are magically going to get better because SKS and Reeves are in charge rather than Rishi and Hunt is almost childish in its analysis as, of course, is the reverse. When are we going to start addressing our real economic problems? Does our political class really have nothing useful to say on this at all? If so, we need a new one.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872

    Tottenham concede first yet again.

    Will still beat Leeds though.

    LOL
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965
    vino said:

    kinabalu said:

    vino said:

    vino said:

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    Snap - I'm a former Labour voting lad who did well in work and in marriage - would never have thought of buying a house if it wasn't for my better half - it's the "inside" bit isn't it that still makes you working class but so hard to define. I know I have a chip on my shoulder re the Labour Party Brexit stance which in area (Ashfield) a lot of voters appear to share hence the popularity of Ashfield Independents
    The two Labour Parties.

    One, of the North London supper party.

    The other, of the pie and peas supper down the Working Men's Club.

    The first had stopped listening to the second.
    Good post and spot on
    You liked that one then?
    really liked it!!
    Excellent!

    Normally I'd have just 'liked' your reply to indicate safe receipt and duly read but after today's chat I'm going to stop doing that.

    No more likes from me apart from on posts that either make me half die laughing (in a good way) or include at least one point of startling originality.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,773

    Anyhow, I am about to start reading 'A Rising Man' by Abir Mukherjee. Historical crime fiction not my usual thing, but £2 from a charity shop, so I'll give it a go...

    Quite good. Worth a read, as is its successor.

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    CarlottaVance despite the brickbats thrown her way by some of our Scottish contingent is the only one I can think of still posting regularly.
    Is @MoonRabbit not genuinely a horse racing fanatic lesbian then?
    LOL. After that first race scrub horse racing and add bunked off school. It took two weeks to convince PB I wasn’t a foreign bot new to English Language. One year in they are still teaching me English Grammar!
    Yes but to be fair your posts often lie somewhere between navigating a labyrinth and wading through treacle.
    I like them.

    I’m getting punchier 🥊
    Your midterms punditry (ex Nevada) was v good.
    Is Nevada over? 😝

    Polls consistently put her a long way behind, AND the Dem governor got flipped, so would be a remarkable hold.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976

    WillG said:

    DJ41 said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”

    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy
    It all has the air of going through the motions to justify a mistake.

    Yes, there were people who voted Leave for this kind of "letters to the times" reason of the EU being incompatible with what in their mind "sovereignty" and "democracy" means - a noddy reductive and dated definition of these things imo but nevertheless arguable.

    However, in practice we Brexited to stop Free Movement. That was the killer issue that tipped the vote. Everyone knows this really. So all of this "should have been Norway for now" and retrospective longing for "EFTA" etc from these "Liberal Leavers" (who are way overrepresented on PB) is for the birds. As tbf are the claims of Remainers that this could have happened.

    The truth is that only a Hard Brexit was politically possible - any other would have got the Tory PM who proposed it ousted - and Hard Brexit makes us significantly poorer, culturally and economically, with no benefits beyond the ephemeral. A mistake. A bad bad mistake.

    You know this. I know you do. Hence your rhetoric on it being either half-hearted or the other extreme - OTT and performative.
    I mean, you're wrong. You are simply wrong. I am honest with myself and honest with the site on this issue

    If we had the vote again, I would - with great anguish - vote Leave again. For the selfsame reasons that I voted Leave before. Sovereignty. All else is subsidiary. I would love a softer Brexit but even a Hard Brexit is preferable to Remaining (tho it is a close run thing).
    Why is it a close run thing if you are rock certain that "all else is subsidiary" to sovereignty and that being on the outside means sovereignty whereas being a member of the club means the absence of sovereignty? A choice of hard Brexit over Remaining follows logically from that position.

    The problem is that talk of "sovereignty" is cack. Did you know the Isle of Man is sovereign? "So what?" I hear people ask. Good question. That's my point.

    Britain has signed treaties. That means it's limited in what it can do. That's a limitation on its sovereignty. Oh no, wait, it's not the negation of its sovereignty because in time of emergency, or for reasons of national security, or because someone looked at someone else's girlfriend, it can always renege on any treaty it wants to renege on. That actually applies to all international treaties. Of course big problems with trade, with diplomacy, or with creditworthiness - in short, in relationships with other "actors" whether state or international or private or oligarchic - may then ensue. Which might mean diarrhoea, or worse, raining down on the heads of British citizens. Which may or may not be preferable to whatever the result of not reneging on the treaty would have been.

    ^ That's a summary of reality. "Sovereignty" is pie in the sky, a topic fit for student debsocs and for those who haven't grown up much since they were in them.

    I find this idea that "sovereignty" is an abstract concept completely ridiculous. It's a basic question of how we are governed. The EU is fundamentally different to other international treaties in a very obvious and meaningful fashion. When you get a regular international treaty, it's there in black and white what you are agreeing to and then parliament can weigh it up in terms of pros and cons. The EU is ever changing and expanding. Not only from the parliament passing new rules in agreed areas of power, which is already a big black box when you sign a treaty, but also from the ECJ actually deciding to expand powers to new areas without treaty changes.

    And even worse than that, there is no check on the judges at all. In the UK, when some judge makes a ridiculous landmark decision, whether because of bias or poorly drafted laws, parliament can amend the law. That doesn't happen in the EU. Judges have untrammeled power and it cannot be overruled except by treaty change, which happens decades apart and isn't by a government elected by the people, but by a messy compromise difficult to see by the voters.
    Precisely. Sovereignty isn't pie in the sky or a meaningless concept, it's a necessary part of democracy. That laws are decided by people we elect.

    If the EU is to have lawmaking powers then it should be sovereign with democratically elected legislators and governments decided at elections.

    Otherwise it's a simple failure of democracy. Those who think that EU being sovereign is nonsense, which is why it should have law making powers, miss the woods for the trees. That's the worst possible scenario.

    We should either have a democratic nation state, ie Brexit, or a democratic Federal state called Europe. Pick your poison, if you're not prepared to accept a democratic Federal State, then Brexit is the only democratic solution.
    All sovereignty is shared District/Borough, County, Scots/Welsh/NI Assembly, Westminster - decisions made at the appropriate level. Then we agree to share sovereignty in UN peace keeping forces or with joint UK/US missions. It's horses for courses, we now have to fit in with what the EU decides in many cases without having a say in it.
    But at the district, borough, home nation etc level we DO have very clear elections with a government elected to run it, which can be turfed out of power when they do a bad job. It's impossible for the voters to get rid of a European Commission when we don't like the direction of travel.

    UN peacekeeping missions are clearly a complete terrible comparison as we choose which ones we do and don't want to be part of.

    And I think Remainers KNOW on this topic of sovereingty they are on weak grounds. That's why every time it's discussed they resort to "it's abstract and complicated, so get over it" because they will lose every time you get down to specifics. In my personal opinion, it's also why EU membership is much more popular during general times than when it's being explicitly debated. Nick Clegg is an extremely good debater and he got torn apart by the highly unpopular Farage.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    I remember a long time ago reading Room at the Top (which I am dismayed to see was published in 1957) which very much identified that sort of problem. My father, who came from a very working class background in Dundee, had very similar issues when he was commissioned as an officer in the army.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    Your post is put well, but I disagree on the basics. We cannot 'save up and plug the hole' if we get recession. A contracting economy enlarges the hole because tax revenue dips, and unemployment benefit increases. It's fighting a losing battle. Growth is the only way through this, and Sunak's Government will be forced to recognise that, whether they like it or not. Truss's approach was like a bull in a china shop, and that's a shame, but fundamentally she was spot on.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,265

    Tottenham concede first yet again.

    Will still beat Leeds though.

    Dura Ace owes you one for that....
  • kinabalu said:

    House is basically evens now on Betfair for Republicans being in either the 210-219 seat band v. 220-229 seat band. Lots of slow and close races in California.

    If I had to call it I'd say we're inching very slowly to Republican taking it 219-216, but it's a coin flip to guess whether it'll end up at 219 or 220 that doesn't attract me.

    Hopefully you'll beat my £42 return for 4 digits staked.
    4 digits staked and £266.34 return (after commission)

    Only a net £42.30 down now. If a good final House pops up I might just get over the line.

    In which case it's been a lot of stress, risk and aggro for no return, but interesting ans at least I've learned something.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    edited November 2022
    DavidL said:

    Tottenham concede first yet again.

    Will still beat Leeds though.

    LOL
    Football. ******* hell

    Is there a Conte problem? Might he walk blaming board for giving him a squad of much of a muchness?

    Any leading WC scorer bets on a jaded Kane?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,965

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Are there any female posters left?
    Cyclefree’s departure is not good at all.

    This site risks becoming a bubble of broadly convergent views which in turn reduces its utility.

    No, I don’t know what the solution is.

    CarlottaVance despite the brickbats thrown her way by some of our Scottish contingent is the only one I can think of still posting regularly.
    Is @MoonRabbit not genuinely a horse racing fanatic lesbian then?
    LOL. After that first race scrub horse racing and add bunked off school. It took two weeks to convince PB I wasn’t a foreign bot new to English Language. One year in they are still teaching me English Grammar!
    Yes but to be fair your posts often lie somewhere between navigating a labyrinth and wading through treacle.
    I like them.

    I’m getting punchier 🥊
    Your midterms punditry (ex Nevada) was v good.
    Is Nevada over? 😝

    Polls consistently put her a long way behind, AND the Dem governor got flipped, so would be a remarkable hold.
    No it's not over till it's over and it's not over. I'm being premature.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    Your post is put well, but I disagree on the basics. We cannot 'save up and plug the hole' if we get recession. A contracting economy enlarges the hole because tax revenue dips, and unemployment benefit increases. It's fighting a losing battle. Growth is the only way through this, and Sunak's Government will be forced to recognise that, whether they like it or not. Truss's approach was like a bull in a china shop, and that's a shame, but fundamentally she was spot on.
    https://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2022/11/12/to-ask-the-secretary-of-state-for-business-energy-and-industrial-strategy-which-new-oil-and-gas-fields-will-be-issued-with-production-licences-in-2022/

    John Redwood asks BEIS what new oil and gas fields will be issued with production licenses in 2022 - gets a non answer. This Government isn't lifting a finger to increase domestic energy supply. It defies all logic.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    Your post is put well, but I disagree on the basics. We cannot 'save up and plug the hole' if we get recession. A contracting economy enlarges the hole because tax revenue dips, and unemployment benefit increases. It's fighting a losing battle. Growth is the only way through this, and Sunak's Government will be forced to recognise that, whether they like it or not. Truss's approach was like a bull in a china shop, and that's a shame, but fundamentally she was spot on.
    But unless you're an incredibly high taxed economy (70%+ rates), cutting taxes won't plug fiscal holes, even if you do stimulate a bit of growth by it. It's the right wing equivalent of spending your way to growth. Yes, you are putting more money into the economy, and that has a multiplier effect, but the multiplier effect isn't big enough to make up for hole in finances you created. Growth has to be accelerated by thoughtful policy decisions on a sector by sector basis.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,773

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    Your post is put well, but I disagree on the basics. We cannot 'save up and plug the hole' if we get recession. A contracting economy enlarges the hole because tax revenue dips, and unemployment benefit increases. It's fighting a losing battle. Growth is the only way through this, and Sunak's Government will be forced to recognise that, whether they like it or not. Truss's approach was like a bull in a china shop, and that's a shame, but fundamentally she was spot on.
    PB currently reflects the fact that the Overton window appears narrow at the moment. In the UK if you take out Brexit as such and SNP, both of which cut across traditional lines, there is almost too much agreement. This causes much agitation about small things - the narcissism of small differences, and of course focus on character.

    But in reality socialism, unbridled capitalism, small state, marxism, libertarianism, radicalism, 'Year Nought' thinking, old fashioned liberalism, religious politics etc are all in severe decay.

    Leaving only a Social Democrat debate about where exactly to pitch your stall for a combination of massive state, massive corporate enterprise, small scale enterprise and third sector.

    In truth this is amazingly dull. the other subject that is dull is competence, which is the one great issue of our day.

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214

    Tottenham concede first yet again.

    Will still beat Leeds though.

    Dura Ace owes you one for that....
    One what 😮

    Short ride in a fast machine?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 49,002
    Leon said:

    DJ41 said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    I started posting because Ukraine is dear to my heart, but I have had stints of lurking historically. I do feel this place feels a lot more sanitized than it used to. We still have ideological breadth, but it's mildly put forward and the level of robust debate that used to make this place electric has now gone. I actually feel less invested, even though I am posting, because of the lack of animated back and forth. It used to be I would come back every hour and read every comment.

    It seems Leon is the only big personality left. I remember Plato and isam and tim and Socrates and Sean Fear and CycleFree and David Herdson and Alastair Meeks all bouncing off each other. And because nobody responds to Leon's provocations now, even he seems milder.

    They keep banning me. I have no choice but to rein it in

    But you echo my thoughts entirely
    It used to be like THE buzzing place to be on a Saturday night. Now it's like a quiet country pub, where it's nice to drop in for a good natter. Which is fine I guess.
    The tedious, censorious bores of the Left have triumphed. They keep demanding that people are banned for having vaguely right wing or unusual views. Then they are banned and all their interesting, provocative opinions go with them, and we are stuck with a sludge of predictable Remoaner centre left viewpoints, and eventually even these boring people get bored, and leave, and the entire debate dies

    It’s why Mastodon won’t work. Same problem
    It's just the current political cycle. I mean: who's going to come on here and defend Rishi and the various dismal legacies of Brexit, Boris and Truss? You'd have to be very bored or a little strange. Most of the Right have ducked out of the discussion (for now), so it's only the Left or vindicated Remainers still around.
    Much truth in this. There's no sap on the Right because Brexit and Tory governments can no longer be supported with a straight face. So it's all a bit one sided now and - speaking personally here but I sense it applies to others too - it causes people on the 'winning' side to ease off, pull their punches, so as not to be flat track bullies. The advent of Sunak seemed to raise morale - but it was short-lived, sadly.
    But this is more deadening nonsense

    Brexit has not “failed” and Remainers have not been “vindicated”

    Brexit has been painful, mortifying and chaotic and all that is regrettable. Sometimes I find myself thinking “maybe we shouldn’t have done it”

    But the other day I got a grip and sat myself down and really asked myself: how would I vote if we had another in/out vote?

    Ultimately, I decided I would vote Leave, with great reluctance - just as I did before. Their project of political union does not fit us. It’s a damn shame coz there’s lots about the EU I like - especially free movement. But then I’m an affluent north Londoner who was not especially impacted by EU migration - I do not condemn those who voted Leave to close the borders. That democracy
    It all has the air of going through the motions to justify a mistake.

    Yes, there were people who voted Leave for this kind of "letters to the times" reason of the EU being incompatible with what in their mind "sovereignty" and "democracy" means - a noddy reductive and dated definition of these things imo but nevertheless arguable.

    However, in practice we Brexited to stop Free Movement. That was the killer issue that tipped the vote. Everyone knows this really. So all of this "should have been Norway for now" and retrospective longing for "EFTA" etc from these "Liberal Leavers" (who are way overrepresented on PB) is for the birds. As tbf are the claims of Remainers that this could have happened.

    The truth is that only a Hard Brexit was politically possible - any other would have got the Tory PM who proposed it ousted - and Hard Brexit makes us significantly poorer, culturally and economically, with no benefits beyond the ephemeral. A mistake. A bad bad mistake.

    You know this. I know you do. Hence your rhetoric on it being either half-hearted or the other extreme - OTT and performative.
    I mean, you're wrong. You are simply wrong. I am honest with myself and honest with the site on this issue

    If we had the vote again, I would - with great anguish - vote Leave again. For the selfsame reasons that I voted Leave before. Sovereignty. All else is subsidiary. I would love a softer Brexit but even a Hard Brexit is preferable to Remaining (tho it is a close run thing).
    Why is it a close run thing if you are rock certain that "all else is subsidiary" to sovereignty and that being on the outside means sovereignty whereas being a member of the club means the absence of sovereignty? A choice of hard Brexit over Remaining follows logically from that position.

    The problem is that talk of "sovereignty" is cack. Did you know the Isle of Man is sovereign? "So what?" I hear people ask. Good question. That's my point.

    Britain has signed treaties. That means it's limited in what it can do. That's a limitation on its sovereignty. Oh no, wait, it's not the negation of its sovereignty because in time of emergency, or for reasons of national security, or because someone looked at someone else's girlfriend, it can always renege on any treaty it wants to renege on. That actually applies to all international treaties. Of course big problems with trade, with diplomacy, or with creditworthiness - in short, in relationships with other "actors" whether state or international or private or oligarchic - may then ensue. Which might mean diarrhoea, or worse, raining down on the heads of British citizens. Which may or may not be preferable to whatever the result of not reneging on the treaty would have been.

    ^ That's a summary of reality. "Sovereignty" is pie in the sky, a topic fit for student debsocs and for those who haven't grown up much since they were in them.





    Sovereignty really is not "pie in the sky". Ask the Greeks

    They are stuck with the euro forever, and with all the decisions made about it in Brussels, Paris, Frankfurt and Berlin. Not in Athens. So their economy is run from foreign capitals

    They are stuck with it because leaving it would cause terrible economic chaos and plunge them into many years of Depression. The euro is their eternal fate, there is no turning back

    That is a huge loss of sovereignty, and it is gone forever. The same can be said of many smaller euro members. Lots of them think the price is worth it. That's their call

    The same thing was happening to Britain in the wider EU, even without the euro. We were becoming slowly but surely so enmeshed in this political union we would never be able to leave. And we would have become stuck in a political union we really do not truly like - forever

    The proof of this is the painful mess of Brexit. That's how hard it was to leave the EU in 2016. By 2026 it would have become impossible. The only way to regain our sovereignty was to actually exercise what remained of it - and Leave
    During the Eurozone crisis, the Germans suggested that Greece left the Euro temporarily. It was Greece that chose not to.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505
    algarkirk said:

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    Your post is put well, but I disagree on the basics. We cannot 'save up and plug the hole' if we get recession. A contracting economy enlarges the hole because tax revenue dips, and unemployment benefit increases. It's fighting a losing battle. Growth is the only way through this, and Sunak's Government will be forced to recognise that, whether they like it or not. Truss's approach was like a bull in a china shop, and that's a shame, but fundamentally she was spot on.
    PB currently reflects the fact that the Overton window appears narrow at the moment. In the UK if you take out Brexit as such and SNP, both of which cut across traditional lines, there is almost too much agreement. This causes much agitation about small things - the narcissism of small differences, and of course focus on character.

    But in reality socialism, unbridled capitalism, small state, marxism, libertarianism, radicalism, 'Year Nought' thinking, old fashioned liberalism, religious politics etc are all in severe decay.

    Leaving only a Social Democrat debate about where exactly to pitch your stall for a combination of massive state, massive corporate enterprise, small scale enterprise and third sector.

    In truth this is amazingly dull. the other subject that is dull is competence, which is the one great issue of our day.

    That's a very Western-centric view. Not much evidence of a social democratic statist consensus in Dubai, which is why their economy is exploding and the Western economies are falling back.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,059
    On topic: Aaron Blake at the Washington Post lists, in reverse order his latest top ten Republican candidates:

    10. Senator Rick Scott
    9. Mike Pompeo
    8. Nikki Haley
    7. Senator Ted Cruz
    6. Kari Lake
    5. Senator Tim Scott
    4. Governor Glenn Youngkin
    3. Mike Pence
    2. Donald Trump
    1. Governor Ron DeSantis
    source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/12/top-10-republican-candidates-2024/

    I assume Lake will drop from his list if, as now seems likely, she loses.

    (For the record: Only two of those, Haley and Youngkin, might make my list of who should be candidates. One detail about Haley I like: As a teenager, she was already dong the book keeping for her family's small business. I like politicians who can do arithmetic. Not all of ours can.)
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    Off-topic: will the vaccination of detainees at Manston against diphtheria be compulsory or voluntary?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    The like button avoids the thread being clogged up with "+1", "thanks", I agree", and "good post".
    +1
    I agree with this. Good post
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    Second super dramatic RL semi final in a row. Samoa looking favourites now.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    The like button avoids the thread being clogged up with "+1", "thanks", I agree", and "good post".
    It is also a short and easy way of acknowledging a post that may have agreed with yours without having to add any more to the point. I don't agree that it stifles contrary views, certainly not on here. Possibly on MSM threads where the default setting is the most liked items on the thread and you don't see the others.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,635

    A few simple rules for debate

    1) Play the ball not the person. Ah, but you cry, Fred is evil and stupid and must be told so… No, this never improves things.

    A tiny number of people can swear blog without causing offende. You (whoever you are) almost certainly can’t do that.

    2) Doxxing people never works. Again, the cry is raised, in *this case* it is justified. And again, it is always a fail.

    3) When discussion gets heated, post cooking recipes.

    I like gazpacho at times of heated debate
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,829
    edited November 2022
    DavidL said:

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    I remember a long time ago reading Room at the Top (which I am dismayed to see was published in 1957) which very much identified that sort of problem. My father, who came from a very working class background in Dundee, had very similar issues when he was commissioned as an officer in the army.
    Talking about educating the working classes, this has popped up on the GRaun: and note the sting in the tail, at least of this quote - so it's not just a de facto Tech Modern default.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/nov/12/art-drama-languages-and-geography-to-become-preserve-of-private-schools-as-state-sector-cuts-bite

    'Geoff Barton, general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, said: “Subjects we have always seen as culturally really important will increasingly become the preserve of private schools because state schools can’t afford to teach them.”

    He told the Observer that subjects that attract fewer pupils at GCSE and A-level, including drama, art, German and French, would all be in danger of being axed, because “one teacher to 20 children won’t be viable any more”.

    Subjects like design technology, which is expensive because schools have to buy materials and classes can’t be big for safety reasons, would also be at risk, he said.'

    The modern languages in particular are another issue - for university entrance AIUI.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976

    algarkirk said:

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    Your post is put well, but I disagree on the basics. We cannot 'save up and plug the hole' if we get recession. A contracting economy enlarges the hole because tax revenue dips, and unemployment benefit increases. It's fighting a losing battle. Growth is the only way through this, and Sunak's Government will be forced to recognise that, whether they like it or not. Truss's approach was like a bull in a china shop, and that's a shame, but fundamentally she was spot on.
    PB currently reflects the fact that the Overton window appears narrow at the moment. In the UK if you take out Brexit as such and SNP, both of which cut across traditional lines, there is almost too much agreement. This causes much agitation about small things - the narcissism of small differences, and of course focus on character.

    But in reality socialism, unbridled capitalism, small state, marxism, libertarianism, radicalism, 'Year Nought' thinking, old fashioned liberalism, religious politics etc are all in severe decay.

    Leaving only a Social Democrat debate about where exactly to pitch your stall for a combination of massive state, massive corporate enterprise, small scale enterprise and third sector.

    In truth this is amazingly dull. the other subject that is dull is competence, which is the one great issue of our day.

    That's a very Western-centric view. Not much evidence of a social democratic statist consensus in Dubai, which is why their economy is exploding and the Western economies are falling back.
    Dubai's economy is booming because high oil prices mean it is currently awash with Saudi money. There is very little that is sustainable about its economy. And in general it's not a good idea about comparing city states with proper countries.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505
    WillG said:

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    Your post is put well, but I disagree on the basics. We cannot 'save up and plug the hole' if we get recession. A contracting economy enlarges the hole because tax revenue dips, and unemployment benefit increases. It's fighting a losing battle. Growth is the only way through this, and Sunak's Government will be forced to recognise that, whether they like it or not. Truss's approach was like a bull in a china shop, and that's a shame, but fundamentally she was spot on.
    But unless you're an incredibly high taxed economy (70%+ rates), cutting taxes won't plug fiscal holes, even if you do stimulate a bit of growth by it. It's the right wing equivalent of spending your way to growth. Yes, you are putting more money into the economy, and that has a multiplier effect, but the multiplier effect isn't big enough to make up for hole in finances you created. Growth has to be accelerated by thoughtful policy decisions on a sector by sector basis.
    But we're not talking about 'stimulating a bit of growth', we should be talking about kick-starting something that then gathers its own momentum. What do we pay our Government for if not to at least try and grow our prosperity, not spend all their time inventing ways to seperate widows from their mites.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258

    A few simple rules for debate

    1) Play the ball not the person. Ah, but you cry, Fred is evil and stupid and must be told so… No, this never improves things.

    A tiny number of people can swear blog without causing offende. You (whoever you are) almost certainly can’t do that.

    2) Doxxing people never works. Again, the cry is raised, in *this case* it is justified. And again, it is always a fail.

    3) When discussion gets heated, post cooking recipes.

    I like gazpacho at times of heated debate
    Cool
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872

    DavidL said:

    Tottenham concede first yet again.

    Will still beat Leeds though.

    LOL
    Football. ******* hell

    Is there a Conte problem? Might he walk blaming board for giving him a squad of much of a muchness?

    Any leading WC scorer bets on a jaded Kane?
    Back to 2-2, you may be right yet. I think that Kane gets better service for Spurs than he does for England but he is a greedy b***** as all good strikers are and he is not the worst bet for top scorer.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited November 2022
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    The like button avoids the thread being clogged up with "+1", "thanks", I agree", and "good post".
    It is also a short and easy way of acknowledging a post that may have agreed with yours without having to add any more to the point.
    Why do you ever wish to do that?
    Is such exhibitionist nodding something you felt a need to do before like buttons existed?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872
    DJ41 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    The like button avoids the thread being clogged up with "+1", "thanks", I agree", and "good post".
    It is also a short and easy way of acknowledging a post that may have agreed with yours without having to add any more to the point.
    Why do you ever wish to do that?
    Is such exhibitionist nodding something you felt a need to do before like buttons existed?
    It's polite and yes, before the like buttons I would have made an actual reply more often. Don't regard it as "exhibitionist" though.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,635
    kinabalu said:

    EPG said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon, sorry the quoting's gone to pot -

    I'm prepared to believe you wanted Brexit for the high minded reasons you say. High minded but also, I'd add, a touch precious given other countries don't seem to think their sovereignty is despoiled by EU membership.

    My point is that I reckon you now see - or at the very least suspect - that in practice it was bound to work out badly because it needed to tap into fantasy and xenophobia to get over the line and enacted.

    See, I'm not killing debate, I'm having it. Even on a Saturday when I have a runny nose.

    I thought that around the time of the Brexit vote there was someone with a similar writing style to Leon fantasising about deporting or interning all British Muslims because he was offended. I may be misremembering.
    I can totally believe it - but that was before my time.

    "Before my time" has an overly grave feel, doesn't it? Think I'll drop it as a phrase.
    It was deep magic from before the dawn of time

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,505
    WillG said:

    algarkirk said:

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    Your post is put well, but I disagree on the basics. We cannot 'save up and plug the hole' if we get recession. A contracting economy enlarges the hole because tax revenue dips, and unemployment benefit increases. It's fighting a losing battle. Growth is the only way through this, and Sunak's Government will be forced to recognise that, whether they like it or not. Truss's approach was like a bull in a china shop, and that's a shame, but fundamentally she was spot on.
    PB currently reflects the fact that the Overton window appears narrow at the moment. In the UK if you take out Brexit as such and SNP, both of which cut across traditional lines, there is almost too much agreement. This causes much agitation about small things - the narcissism of small differences, and of course focus on character.

    But in reality socialism, unbridled capitalism, small state, marxism, libertarianism, radicalism, 'Year Nought' thinking, old fashioned liberalism, religious politics etc are all in severe decay.

    Leaving only a Social Democrat debate about where exactly to pitch your stall for a combination of massive state, massive corporate enterprise, small scale enterprise and third sector.

    In truth this is amazingly dull. the other subject that is dull is competence, which is the one great issue of our day.

    That's a very Western-centric view. Not much evidence of a social democratic statist consensus in Dubai, which is why their economy is exploding and the Western economies are falling back.
    Dubai's economy is booming because high oil prices mean it is currently awash with Saudi money. There is very little that is sustainable about its economy. And in general it's not a good idea about comparing city states with proper countries.
    A tired set of flatulent excuses. We have oil and gas in the UK. We're failing to develop it because of the same fatuous consensus I'm arguing against.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,635
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    You are very skilled at setting the agenda for discussion on a thread. Sometimes we end up talking about a right load of shite, but often the debate is very interesting.

    Yes, you go OTT at times, but you bring interesting perspectives and insights, having spent time reading through reams of stuff to supply us with a precis.

    Do I agree with you? Sometimes. Even if I didn't, I wouldn't be skimming past your posts. (Except for the photos of your dinner.)
    Shucks. Ta
    It would have been quicker to have clicked the like button. And wouldn’t have clogged the thread up with meaningless nonsense either.

  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,059
    MoonRabbit asks: "Is Nevada over?"

    In the US, traditionally contests "ain't over till the fat lady sings".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_ain't_over_till_the_fat_lady_sings

    More seriously, it will be over for most practical purposes when one or more news organizations declare a winner, over when election officials certify the election, and, possibly, over when the legal challenges are finished. (Bettors may have to wait for the second; I don't know about the rules on third.)
  • Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    I remember a long time ago reading Room at the Top (which I am dismayed to see was published in 1957) which very much identified that sort of problem. My father, who came from a very working class background in Dundee, had very similar issues when he was commissioned as an officer in the army.
    Talking about educating the working classes, this has popped up on the GRaun: and note the sting in the tail, at least of this quote - so it's not just a de facto Tech Modern default.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/nov/12/art-drama-languages-and-geography-to-become-preserve-of-private-schools-as-state-sector-cuts-bite

    'Geoff Barton, general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, said: “Subjects we have always seen as culturally really important will increasingly become the preserve of private schools because state schools can’t afford to teach them.”

    He told the Observer that subjects that attract fewer pupils at GCSE and A-level, including drama, art, German and French, would all be in danger of being axed, because “one teacher to 20 children won’t be viable any more”.

    Subjects like design technology, which is expensive because schools have to buy materials and classes can’t be big for safety reasons, would also be at risk, he said.'

    The modern languages in particular are another issue - for university entrance AIUI.
    Not sure 1 in 20 is even accurate. Might be the ideal but seems low.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,258

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    The like button avoids the thread being clogged up with "+1", "thanks", I agree", and "good post".
    Thanks, I agree, good post.
    Take the +1 as read.
    Where is -1 button?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    vino said:

    There is no "working class" contributers on this site which to me seems to be a problem - all the labour supporters appear to be rich and voted remain - I mean look at Roger. Almost all the people I know voted leave but I appear to be the exception on here.

    Hello from a Labour Party member brought up in a council house who voted Leave.

    Yes, I have a well paid professional job these days, but that is because I put the effort in and took advantage of the educational opportunities presented to all of us, and I was clever enough to do well. Plus having parents who encouraged me to get on in life.

    Inside, I am the same lad from a Tyneside estate. I make the odd comment about "three types of Balsamic" just to take the piss out of myself, and highlight the internal conflicts of the working class made good.

    I remember a long time ago reading Room at the Top (which I am dismayed to see was published in 1957) which very much identified that sort of problem. My father, who came from a very working class background in Dundee, had very similar issues when he was commissioned as an officer in the army.
    Talking about educating the working classes, this has popped up on the GRaun: and note the sting in the tail, at least of this quote - so it's not just a de facto Tech Modern default.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/nov/12/art-drama-languages-and-geography-to-become-preserve-of-private-schools-as-state-sector-cuts-bite

    'Geoff Barton, general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders, said: “Subjects we have always seen as culturally really important will increasingly become the preserve of private schools because state schools can’t afford to teach them.”

    He told the Observer that subjects that attract fewer pupils at GCSE and A-level, including drama, art, German and French, would all be in danger of being axed, because “one teacher to 20 children won’t be viable any more”.

    Subjects like design technology, which is expensive because schools have to buy materials and classes can’t be big for safety reasons, would also be at risk, he said.'

    The modern languages in particular are another issue - for university entrance AIUI.
    The really problematic one in Scotland is economics, which is basically only taught in private schools these days. A truly dismaying state of affairs, especially when you look at the charts for the average earnings of different graduates. But yes, a daughter of a good friend of mine has just started at St Andrews in International relations. She got her place because her private school helped her become completely fluent in French, Spanish and Italian (have so say that a lot of family skiing holidays probably helped too). What chance does a state school pupil have of competing with that?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Tottenham concede first yet again.

    Will still beat Leeds though.

    LOL
    Football. ******* hell

    Is there a Conte problem? Might he walk blaming board for giving him a squad of much of a muchness?

    Any leading WC scorer bets on a jaded Kane?
    Back to 2-2, you may be right yet. I think that Kane gets better service for Spurs than he does for England but he is a greedy b***** as all good strikers are and he is not the worst bet for top scorer.
    Tiredness? jaded. And if the England side were a horse, the recent form would put you right off.

    Brazil the team to beat?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    Samoa win with extra time drop goal.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,872

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Tottenham concede first yet again.

    Will still beat Leeds though.

    LOL
    Football. ******* hell

    Is there a Conte problem? Might he walk blaming board for giving him a squad of much of a muchness?

    Any leading WC scorer bets on a jaded Kane?
    Back to 2-2, you may be right yet. I think that Kane gets better service for Spurs than he does for England but he is a greedy b***** as all good strikers are and he is not the worst bet for top scorer.
    Tiredness? jaded. And if the England side were a horse, the recent form would put you right off.

    Brazil the team to beat?
    They usually are, them and Germany. England just don't seem to create enough given the quality in their midfield. Not sure why that is but Southgate's teams always seem quite passive or defensive in their approach.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,635

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    The like button avoids the thread being clogged up with "+1", "thanks", I agree", and "good post".
    +1
    +2

    @rcs1000

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Marcus Smith has no place in the England rugby side. All of England's best attacking play has involved Smith being no where near the ball.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,050
    algarkirk said:

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    Your post is put well, but I disagree on the basics. We cannot 'save up and plug the hole' if we get recession. A contracting economy enlarges the hole because tax revenue dips, and unemployment benefit increases. It's fighting a losing battle. Growth is the only way through this, and Sunak's Government will be forced to recognise that, whether they like it or not. Truss's approach was like a bull in a china shop, and that's a shame, but fundamentally she was spot on.
    PB currently reflects the fact that the Overton window appears narrow at the moment. In the UK if you take out Brexit as such and SNP, both of which cut across traditional lines, there is almost too much agreement. This causes much agitation about small things - the narcissism of small differences, and of course focus on character.

    But in reality socialism, unbridled capitalism, small state, marxism, libertarianism, radicalism, 'Year Nought' thinking, old fashioned liberalism, religious politics etc are all in severe decay.

    Leaving only a Social Democrat debate about where exactly to pitch your stall for a combination of massive state, massive corporate enterprise, small scale enterprise and third sector.

    In truth this is amazingly dull. the other subject that is dull is competence, which is the one great issue of our day.

    Sober, boring social democracy sounds very attractive after the chaos of recent years. We can get our excitement from football.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,635
    Scott_xP said:

    A few simple rules for debate

    1) Play the ball not the person. Ah, but you cry, Fred is evil and stupid and must be told so… No, this never improves things.

    A tiny number of people can swear blog without causing offende. You (whoever you are) almost certainly can’t do that.

    2) Doxxing people never works. Again, the cry is raised, in *this case* it is justified. And again, it is always a fail.

    3) When discussion gets heated, post cooking recipes.

    I like gazpacho at times of heated debate
    Cool
    Ugh! That’s, like, tepid!

    Gnarly!
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214

    MoonRabbit asks: "Is Nevada over?"

    In the US, traditionally contests "ain't over till the fat lady sings".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_ain't_over_till_the_fat_lady_sings

    More seriously, it will be over for most practical purposes when one or more news organizations declare a winner, over when election officials certify the election, and, possibly, over when the legal challenges are finished. (Bettors may have to wait for the second; I don't know about the rules on third.)

    Over?
    No. Don’t think will ever be over Nevada Grande. Beef pate and chilli mayo.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,635
    DavidL said:

    DJ41 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    My comment asking that we get rid of the “like” button has now got four “likes”

    I am vindicated. Get rid of it!

    My 'like' was sarcastic. ;)
    Mine too. In general I just use the like button either when someone posts some good or just jolly news (child passed their exams, whatever), for a quip that amused me, or if someone replies to me with some help/clarification but it doesn't need a full quote/reply to just say 'ta'.
    But plenty of other people treat it as a gesture of political solidarity. It's tedious and childish and bad for debate, as it cows the obviously less popular opinions from being expressed
    The like button avoids the thread being clogged up with "+1", "thanks", I agree", and "good post".
    It is also a short and easy way of acknowledging a post that may have agreed with yours without having to add any more to the point.
    Why do you ever wish to do that?
    Is such exhibitionist nodding something you felt a need to do before like buttons existed?
    It's polite and yes, before the like buttons I would have made an actual reply more often. Don't regard it as "exhibitionist" though.
    How many more than 45,000 do you need?

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,570
    Alistair said:

    Marcus Smith has no place in the England rugby side. All of England's best attacking play has involved Smith being no where near the ball.

    He’s kicked a bit too much, but one resulted in a try. He also scored a superb try off Joe’s off load. He is still learning.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 976

    WillG said:

    algarkirk said:

    A thought on listless political discussion.

    I reckon part of the problem is that, right now, there's only one realistic option open to the UK, and it's not an attractive one.

    The retrenchment after 2008 had choices to debate- how much tax rise, how much spending cut. This one, much less so- taxes are going to go up as much as possible, spending is going to be cut as much as possible, and everyone is hoping that will allow the fiscal trousers to button up.

    The brief firework that was the Truss premiership was a desparate attempt to escape that, but it didn't work because it was alway a thousand to one shot.

    The hangover has started, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. It doesn't really matter if its origin was 2020, 2016, 2010, 2008, the 1980s or 1945. There's a hangover to come, and the only real cure is time and pain.

    Your post is put well, but I disagree on the basics. We cannot 'save up and plug the hole' if we get recession. A contracting economy enlarges the hole because tax revenue dips, and unemployment benefit increases. It's fighting a losing battle. Growth is the only way through this, and Sunak's Government will be forced to recognise that, whether they like it or not. Truss's approach was like a bull in a china shop, and that's a shame, but fundamentally she was spot on.
    PB currently reflects the fact that the Overton window appears narrow at the moment. In the UK if you take out Brexit as such and SNP, both of which cut across traditional lines, there is almost too much agreement. This causes much agitation about small things - the narcissism of small differences, and of course focus on character.

    But in reality socialism, unbridled capitalism, small state, marxism, libertarianism, radicalism, 'Year Nought' thinking, old fashioned liberalism, religious politics etc are all in severe decay.

    Leaving only a Social Democrat debate about where exactly to pitch your stall for a combination of massive state, massive corporate enterprise, small scale enterprise and third sector.

    In truth this is amazingly dull. the other subject that is dull is competence, which is the one great issue of our day.

    That's a very Western-centric view. Not much evidence of a social democratic statist consensus in Dubai, which is why their economy is exploding and the Western economies are falling back.
    Dubai's economy is booming because high oil prices mean it is currently awash with Saudi money. There is very little that is sustainable about its economy. And in general it's not a good idea about comparing city states with proper countries.
    A tired set of flatulent excuses. We have oil and gas in the UK. We're failing to develop it because of the same fatuous consensus I'm arguing against.
    I was being polite about your views before and removed some adjectives to do so. I will do so no longer. The idea that the UK oil and gas sector can be a contribution to the economy in any way comparable to Saudi Arabia and UAE is completely fucking ridiculous. Marginal production costs there are $5-10 per barrel. That is a tiny fraction of what it would cost here even if we gave oil companies complete permission to annex land at will and dig anywhere. And even if we did have oil that cheap, known reserves are less than 1% of what is in the UAE and Saudi Arabia. That is despite far more extensive exploration. Our population is also about seven times larger than the UAE's where most of the money is spent. I suggest you do some basic fact checking, or perhaps even have a discussion with someone who has worked in both places, before you start throwing terms like "flatulent" to those who point out why you are wrong.
This discussion has been closed.