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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    The Beatles‘ 1968 track ‘Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da’ has been declared the most perfect pop song ever written by researchers at the Max Planck Institute in Germany.

    https://www.nme.com/news/music/the-beatles-ob-la-di-ob-la-da-is-the-perfect-pop-song-according-to-science-2574325

    It is what the Germans call mist. It isn't even in the 20 least embarrassingly awful Beatles songs.
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    Martin10Martin10 Posts: 142
    Screw politics lets turn this into a music discussion forum
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,965
    edited November 2022
    Martin10 said:

    Promiscupus by Nelky Furtado was great

    She's from Victoria BC. Top, top fado singer.
    I'm like a bird I'm gonna fly away...
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    edited November 2022
    Ishmael_Z said:

    dixiedean said:

    I must confess I think Yellow by Coldplay is fantastic.
    Other songs by bands I generally don't like.
    Orange Crush REM.
    Crazy Little thing called Love Queen.

    Not sure Orange Crush can be counted as perfect pop song. Far too edgy.

    Only something off Automatic will count for REM in this category I think.

    Probably Man on the Moon or Everybody hurts
    Or Find the River or anything. If we are moving on to perfect albums, that and After the Gold Rush and Blood on the Tracks.
    Find the River is beautiful. One of my favourites and, like Souvenir is on my Funeral playlist
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    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,934
    I wouldn't say it was perfect - but 'King For A Day' is really up there imho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4AQbsCz1AY . The jilted lover thing is strong in pop.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Martin10 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Has anyone mentioned Just Can't get Enough. Depeche Mode?
    I'd retire on that.
    No more need to speak.

    I love Rio by Duran Duran
    Her name is Rio and she dances on the sand
    Mainly famous for the reference in

    And your shoulders are frozen (cold as the night)
    Oh, but you're an explosion (you're dynamite)
    Your name isn't Rio, but I don't care for sand
    And lighting the fuse might result in a bang, b-b-bang-oh

    I bet that you look good on the dance floor
    I don't know if you're looking for romance or
    I don't know what you're looking for
    I said, I bet that you look good on the dance floor
    Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984
    Well, from 1984
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    Martin10 said:

    Screw politics lets turn this into a music discussion forum

    We only talk politics on this site if we have nothing else to discuss 👍
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    Ishmael_Z said:

    dixiedean said:

    I must confess I think Yellow by Coldplay is fantastic.
    Other songs by bands I generally don't like.
    Orange Crush REM.
    Crazy Little thing called Love Queen.

    Not sure Orange Crush can be counted as perfect pop song. Far too edgy.

    Only something off Automatic will count for REM in this category I think.

    Probably Man on the Moon or Everybody hurts
    Or Find the River or anything. If we are moving on to perfect albums, that and After the Gold Rush and Blood on the Tracks.
    If you get a chance BBC4 Sounds has desert island discs last week with Rick Rubins. He takes Neil Young's 'I believe in you' (Goldrush) with him and gets pretty emotional as he is doing so.

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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone a fan of Steve Winwood?

    Loved his music right from Spencer Davis Group through Traffic and Blind Faith to the solo stuff. Vastly underrated IMHO.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,288
    edited November 2022

    Martin10 said:

    Tainted love by softcell was great but a one hit wonder for them

    'Say Hello Wave Goodbye' was massive for them as well in 1982 - top 3. Also 'Torch' hugely under rated song 2 in 1982.
    Bedsitter was also a top 5 hit
    Voting, polling
    Tweeting, trolling
    And now I'm all alone
    In Brexit-Land my only home
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    dixiedean said:

    Heard the Byrds version of Mr Tambourine Man in a cafe today.
    Best "make a pop song out of one that really isn't"?

    Rock music would have been pretty much perfect if entirely limited to other peoples' versions of Dylan songs.

    An immensely good PB evening. Off to bed now in case it all kicks off, I am very mindful of the fate of my near namesake and stalker IshmaelZ.
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    To get back to the pol betting:


    In a surprising foray in a deep-blue state, President Biden is campaigning for Gov. Kathy Hochul of New York to try to blunt the momentum of her Republican opponent, while Jill Biden is in Houston trying to shore up support in Democratic strongholds.

    NY Times live blog
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    Martin10 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    Hampstead would see off Hartlepool easy. Hobnail boots and vulgar chanting no match for the fortified crepe van.
    The heath would be a great place for the deciding battle....gays and wokes vs armed thugs
    Give it up mate, you're really not much cop at it. You stick out like a sore thumb.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    Ok im pitching for The New Seekers Never Ending Song Of Love for ultimate pop song
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,117
    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    mwadams said:

    dixiedean said:

    RunDeep said:

    Leon said:

    Joan Armatrading's Love and Affection is up there with Fast Car. And it has similarities

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKKtvAvak

    What a superb song

    "I am not in love, but I am open to persuasion"

    Outstanding song. Have seen her live. Great stuff.

    And this

    https://youtu.be/vyI9flHHT2Q

    "I can't do everything but I'd do anything for you.
    I can't do anything but be in love with you.
    And all I do is miss you and the way we used to be."
    Awesome song.
    Yep. Making Movies was the first LP I ever bought.
    ABBA Arrival for me.
    For a while I was embarrassed about that. Now it's Ubercool. Because it's super pop music.
    Kings of the Wild Frontier, Adam Ant.
    No, sorry, gonna have to blow the whistle there. That is shit. So shit, it harshes the mellow of the whole evening.

    Shit.
    Just in case, I went back and checked

    And yes, it's shit. Absolutely shit

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hEn_rEDzp0

    However it has a liveliness and cheeky innocence which I kind of miss. Also he was very good looking. Ended up mad and sectioned, as I recall
    Possibly the best gig I ever went to was Adam and the Ants, Durham University November 12 1980, about a fortnight before they became massive - but then they still had their hardcore punk following. These fans formed "anthills" - verticle mosh-pits that became wobbly towers of punks that then collapsed in chaos. Then they helped each other up and started building new ones.

    The most remarkable energy on and off stage.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,117
    BTW, remarkable first 8 games tonight in the NFL. Three games at 17-17 with 2 minutes to go.....
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    Anchorage by Michelle Shocked. The bleakness of growing up.

    Hey girl I think the last time I saw you
    Was on me and Leroy's wedding day.
    What was the name of that love song you played?
    I forgot how it goes, I don't recall how it goes.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,154
    edited November 2022
    Rainy Autumn Sunday Gastropub Classics is totally a genre, and should be an "album" available on iTunes

    Poignant, wistful, sophisticated Pop Classics to go with your roast guinea fowl and polenta, and make you feel seriously sad but also pleased that you still have friends and can afford a nice lunch
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    Heath Mayo
    @HeathMayo
    If DeSantis were running in ‘24, he should’ve already responded to Trump. As badly as Trump needs to go, it won’t be DeSantis to do it. He has zero charisma & falls flat when the lights come on. Kari Lake is the only thing that can stop Trump in the party. Pick your poison, GOP.

    https://twitter.com/HeathMayo/status/1589390481024512001
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,117

    dixiedean said:

    I must confess I think Yellow by Coldplay is fantastic.
    Other songs by bands I generally don't like.
    Orange Crush REM.
    Crazy Little thing called Love Queen.

    Not sure Orange Crush can be counted as perfect pop song. Far too edgy.

    Rip It Up by Orange Juice on the other hand.....
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Anchorage by Michelle Shocked. The bleakness of growing up.

    Hey girl I think the last time I saw you
    Was on me and Leroy's wedding day.
    What was the name of that love song you played?
    I forgot how it goes, I don't recall how it goes.

    Texas always seemed so big
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,154
    edited November 2022

    Martin10 said:

    Tainted love by softcell was great but a one hit wonder for them

    'Say Hello Wave Goodbye' was massive for them as well in 1982 - top 3. Also 'Torch' hugely under rated song 2 in 1982.
    The extended 12 inch version (fnarrr, sperm in lungs, etc) of Say Hello, Wave Goodbye, is utterly beautiful. Right up there

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdH_xOIlbbk

    My God we were good. In our time. As a people. The West. The Anglosphere. I wonder if this will be seen as our greatest gift to the world: the "Music of the English Speaking People", from 1955-2005. It really is something
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    ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,507
    edited November 2022
    ohnotnow said:

    The Beatles‘ 1968 track ‘Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da’ has been declared the most perfect pop song ever written by researchers at the Max Planck Institute in Germany.

    https://www.nme.com/news/music/the-beatles-ob-la-di-ob-la-da-is-the-perfect-pop-song-according-to-science-2574325

    They are clearly wrong.
    Indeed. I do worry about our German friends.

    A few years ago there was a study looking for the World's best joke. The deemed winner was "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa. Not screaming in terror like his passengers." German voters commented that they didn't understand the joke.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,419
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    If DeSantis (Florida's top Micheal McIntyre tribute act) primaries Trump and beats him to the nomination the Deplorables will be very butthurt and it could supress turnout.

    I think DeSantis has to go for it because, if not now, then when? Four years is a lifetime in politics and Trump's VP will probably be the GOP candidate in 2028. Assuming they are still having elections by then which is by no means a sure thing.

    Some observers disagree; they don’t think he has the bottle.

    https://steveschmidt.substack.com/p/updated-the-little-eichmann?
    … DeSantis can’t beat Trump in a primary because he isn’t tough enough. He lacks the character for direct confrontation with the big boss. He is a schemer. He wants to inherit the throne, not fight the king for it. Relations between the true seat of MAGA power and DeSantis’ backwater duchy are poor. Making a move against Trump requires courage, and the one thing that Trump is completely right about is his assessments around his court’s cowardice. He looks at DeSantis, and sees a punk. He knows that the diminutive bully strikes down, not up. Trump knows he’s weak even if the national political press corps hasn’t figured it out yet….

    Of course the Justice Department might also get a say in whether or not Trump can run.
    That strikes me as a very politically slanted piece, written from the perspective of wanting to see a vicious right wing turf war. The more obvious thing for De Santis to do would be to shower Trump with praise but argue that it's time for a new face. Say 'Trump will be the first guest of honour at my White House, and I hope to benefit from his wise counsel' - Trump would find that almost impossible to combat.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Star by Erasure
    Runaway Train by Soul Asylum
    At Seventeen by Janis Ian
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    Id like to also nominate the song and video for Lindisfarne's Run For Home as a perfect distillation of the late 1970s Labour Party
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    Republican New Hampshire Gov. Chris Sununu:

    Trump will face a 8 to a dozen primary candidates. He keeps no one out of the race.

    https://twitter.com/FaceTheNation/status/1589291571991744512
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    ohnotnow said:

    The Beatles‘ 1968 track ‘Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da’ has been declared the most perfect pop song ever written by researchers at the Max Planck Institute in Germany.

    https://www.nme.com/news/music/the-beatles-ob-la-di-ob-la-da-is-the-perfect-pop-song-according-to-science-2574325

    They are clearly wrong.
    Indeed. I do worry about our German friends.

    A few years ago there was a study looking for the World's best joke. The deemed winner was "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandpa. Not screaming in terror like his passengers." German voters commented that they didn't understand the joke.
    Google Germanwings Flight 9525 for a clue about their blind spot.

    Even without that, surely not a brilliant joke?
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    Ishmael_Z said:

    Star by Erasure
    Runaway Train by Soul Asylum
    At Seventeen by Janis Ian

    Seventeen is brilliant. Utterly brilliant. Timeless capture of what it feels like for many teens. Genius.

    But not, I submit, Sunday afternoon pop classic in the pub tune.

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    Leon said:

    Martin10 said:

    Tainted love by softcell was great but a one hit wonder for them

    'Say Hello Wave Goodbye' was massive for them as well in 1982 - top 3. Also 'Torch' hugely under rated song 2 in 1982.
    The extended 12 inch version (fnarrr, sperm in lungs, etc) of Say Hello, Wave Goodbye, is utterly beautiful. Right up there

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdH_xOIlbbk

    My God we were good. In our time. As a people. The West. The Anglosphere. I wonder if this will be seen as our greatest gift to the world: the "Music of the English Speaking People", from 1955-2005. It really is something
    If we are going all 12 inch then New Order's Blue Monday is the stone cold belting classic of them all.

    Nothing comes close.

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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,419
    edited November 2022
    Martin10 said:

    I loved Pure Shores by All Saints

    Good pop song - William Orbit a masterful producer, responsible for Madonna's well-regarded Ray of Light album too.

    This track from his Hello Waveforms album is absolutely amazing:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zqGhoV29mRw
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934
    edited November 2022
    For precisely the same reason as Joan of Arc i must mention Perfect by The Lightning Seeds
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    Ok im pitching for The New Seekers Never Ending Song Of Love for ultimate pop song

    I prefer Seekers and 'The Carnival Is Over' (1965 ish). Not really keen on 1960s music but that is top level as is 'What becomes of the broken hearted' Jimmy Ruffin 1966 and 'Reflections' Supremes 1967 👍
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Star by Erasure
    Runaway Train by Soul Asylum
    At Seventeen by Janis Ian

    Seventeen is brilliant. Utterly brilliant. Timeless capture of what it feels like for many teens. Genius.

    But not, I submit, Sunday afternoon pop classic in the pub tune.
    Not how this started.

    And "Cheat ourselves at solitaire." Fucking unsurpassable.
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    MangoMango Posts: 1,013



    Seventeen is brilliant. Utterly brilliant. Timeless capture of what it feels like for many teens. Genius.

    But not, I submit, Sunday afternoon pop classic in the pub tune.

    Then you want Maggie May, don't you?
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    Leon said:

    Martin10 said:

    Tainted love by softcell was great but a one hit wonder for them

    'Say Hello Wave Goodbye' was massive for them as well in 1982 - top 3. Also 'Torch' hugely under rated song 2 in 1982.
    The extended 12 inch version (fnarrr, sperm in lungs, etc) of Say Hello, Wave Goodbye, is utterly beautiful. Right up there

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdH_xOIlbbk

    My God we were good. In our time. As a people. The West. The Anglosphere. I wonder if this will be seen as our greatest gift to the world: the "Music of the English Speaking People", from 1955-2005. It really is something
    Yes. Other than English itself which everyone wants to speak.





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    Have we mentioned 'In the air tonight'?

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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060

    Anchorage by Michelle Shocked. The bleakness of growing up.

    Hey girl I think the last time I saw you
    Was on me and Leroy's wedding day.
    What was the name of that love song you played?
    I forgot how it goes, I don't recall how it goes.

    She was one of the early victims of cancel culture after being labelled homophobic.
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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,097

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    If DeSantis (Florida's top Micheal McIntyre tribute act) primaries Trump and beats him to the nomination the Deplorables will be very butthurt and it could supress turnout.

    I think DeSantis has to go for it because, if not now, then when? Four years is a lifetime in politics and Trump's VP will probably be the GOP candidate in 2028. Assuming they are still having elections by then which is by no means a sure thing.

    Some observers disagree; they don’t think he has the bottle.

    https://steveschmidt.substack.com/p/updated-the-little-eichmann?
    … DeSantis can’t beat Trump in a primary because he isn’t tough enough. He lacks the character for direct confrontation with the big boss. He is a schemer. He wants to inherit the throne, not fight the king for it. Relations between the true seat of MAGA power and DeSantis’ backwater duchy are poor. Making a move against Trump requires courage, and the one thing that Trump is completely right about is his assessments around his court’s cowardice. He looks at DeSantis, and sees a punk. He knows that the diminutive bully strikes down, not up. Trump knows he’s weak even if the national political press corps hasn’t figured it out yet….

    Of course the Justice Department might also get a say in whether or not Trump can run.
    That strikes me as a very politically slanted piece, written from the perspective of wanting to see a vicious right wing turf war. The more obvious thing for De Santis to do would be to shower Trump with praise but argue that it's time for a new face. Say 'Trump will be the first guest of honour at my White House, and I hope to benefit from his wise counsel' - Trump would find that almost impossible to combat.
    And Trump will pick a fight and DeSantis will try to not respond, and he will be perceived as weak by Republicans that want a "fighter".
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934

    Ok im pitching for The New Seekers Never Ending Song Of Love for ultimate pop song

    I prefer Seekers and 'The Carnival Is Over' (1965 ish). Not really keen on 1960s music but that is top level as is 'What becomes of the broken hearted' Jimmy Ruffin 1966 and 'Reflections' Supremes 1967 👍
    The Air That I Breathe as a post coitus chill out is up there for perfection too
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    Mango said:



    Seventeen is brilliant. Utterly brilliant. Timeless capture of what it feels like for many teens. Genius.

    But not, I submit, Sunday afternoon pop classic in the pub tune.

    Then you want Maggie May, don't you?
    Probably.
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    Mrs Robinson.

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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,097

    Have we mentioned 'In the air tonight'?

    For what, cheesy rock ballads? The idea that Phil Collins can be held up as a more talented artist than modern bands like Kings of Leon or Arcade Fire just shows the age group of people posting. The music people think is greatest is disproportionately weighted towards the music you listened to from 10-25. It's like the best World Cup was the one that happened closest to when you were 10. People can't recognize their own bias.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,419
    WillG said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    If DeSantis (Florida's top Micheal McIntyre tribute act) primaries Trump and beats him to the nomination the Deplorables will be very butthurt and it could supress turnout.

    I think DeSantis has to go for it because, if not now, then when? Four years is a lifetime in politics and Trump's VP will probably be the GOP candidate in 2028. Assuming they are still having elections by then which is by no means a sure thing.

    Some observers disagree; they don’t think he has the bottle.

    https://steveschmidt.substack.com/p/updated-the-little-eichmann?
    … DeSantis can’t beat Trump in a primary because he isn’t tough enough. He lacks the character for direct confrontation with the big boss. He is a schemer. He wants to inherit the throne, not fight the king for it. Relations between the true seat of MAGA power and DeSantis’ backwater duchy are poor. Making a move against Trump requires courage, and the one thing that Trump is completely right about is his assessments around his court’s cowardice. He looks at DeSantis, and sees a punk. He knows that the diminutive bully strikes down, not up. Trump knows he’s weak even if the national political press corps hasn’t figured it out yet….

    Of course the Justice Department might also get a say in whether or not Trump can run.
    That strikes me as a very politically slanted piece, written from the perspective of wanting to see a vicious right wing turf war. The more obvious thing for De Santis to do would be to shower Trump with praise but argue that it's time for a new face. Say 'Trump will be the first guest of honour at my White House, and I hope to benefit from his wise counsel' - Trump would find that almost impossible to combat.
    And Trump will pick a fight and DeSantis will try to not respond, and he will be perceived as weak by Republicans that want a "fighter".
    You're right, and he's started calling him 'De Sanctimonious' (which is funny, does someone write these for him?) but if De Santis doesn't rise to it and shrugs and says 'that's our Donald', what can Trump actually do? He can ramp it up a notch but look like a c***. Trump's unerring genius is to bring people down to his level. If someone doesn't, he'll have issues.
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    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,934

    Mrs Robinson.

    Homeward bound tbf
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    WillG said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    If DeSantis (Florida's top Micheal McIntyre tribute act) primaries Trump and beats him to the nomination the Deplorables will be very butthurt and it could supress turnout.

    I think DeSantis has to go for it because, if not now, then when? Four years is a lifetime in politics and Trump's VP will probably be the GOP candidate in 2028. Assuming they are still having elections by then which is by no means a sure thing.

    Some observers disagree; they don’t think he has the bottle.

    https://steveschmidt.substack.com/p/updated-the-little-eichmann?
    … DeSantis can’t beat Trump in a primary because he isn’t tough enough. He lacks the character for direct confrontation with the big boss. He is a schemer. He wants to inherit the throne, not fight the king for it. Relations between the true seat of MAGA power and DeSantis’ backwater duchy are poor. Making a move against Trump requires courage, and the one thing that Trump is completely right about is his assessments around his court’s cowardice. He looks at DeSantis, and sees a punk. He knows that the diminutive bully strikes down, not up. Trump knows he’s weak even if the national political press corps hasn’t figured it out yet….

    Of course the Justice Department might also get a say in whether or not Trump can run.
    That strikes me as a very politically slanted piece, written from the perspective of wanting to see a vicious right wing turf war. The more obvious thing for De Santis to do would be to shower Trump with praise but argue that it's time for a new face. Say 'Trump will be the first guest of honour at my White House, and I hope to benefit from his wise counsel' - Trump would find that almost impossible to combat.
    And Trump will pick a fight and DeSantis will try to not respond, and he will be perceived as weak by Republicans that want a "fighter".
    See my earlier link to the idea that only @Leon's very own Kari Lake can primary Trump.

    I reckon he will know this and offer her veep role.

    Still v annoyed that she isn't on the BF list.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    Sean_F said:

    Re, civil war, in the majority of wars where regular soldiers are pitted against guerillas, the guerillas lose.

    Guerilla warfare is what you do when you don't have sufficient resources to maintain conventional forces. Where guerillas do well is when they are working in conjunction with regular forces (eg Vietnam, the Peninsular War, the Eastern Front from 1942-44).

    If, civil war broke out in the US, and the US army broke decisively for one side or another, that side would win

    If Howe had defeated Washington's field army in 1776, and hooked up with Burgoyne at Saratoga, then the French/Spanish wouldn't have entered the war and it's possible the British could have won it.

    Controlling Long Island, Rhode Island and the Hudson - together with the Royal Navy patrolling offshore - would have isolated the most rebellious New England colonies and even a strong militia in Connecticut and Massachusetts wouldn't have sustained the rebels. Howe could have launched a devastating march through there to retake Boston when he was ready, possibly combined with another thrust from Newport.

    Once done, the middle colonies wouldn't have been able to put up much of a fight, and there were plenty of loyalists in the southern colonies who'd have overthrown the 'patriots' as soon as the bulk of their population had smelt the coffee.
    So long as America kept getting more populous compared to the UK, and at long as its interests diverged, then it was always going to become independent. The only question was when.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,419
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Re, civil war, in the majority of wars where regular soldiers are pitted against guerillas, the guerillas lose.

    Guerilla warfare is what you do when you don't have sufficient resources to maintain conventional forces. Where guerillas do well is when they are working in conjunction with regular forces (eg Vietnam, the Peninsular War, the Eastern Front from 1942-44).

    If, civil war broke out in the US, and the US army broke decisively for one side or another, that side would win

    If Howe had defeated Washington's field army in 1776, and hooked up with Burgoyne at Saratoga, then the French/Spanish wouldn't have entered the war and it's possible the British could have won it.

    Controlling Long Island, Rhode Island and the Hudson - together with the Royal Navy patrolling offshore - would have isolated the most rebellious New England colonies and even a strong militia in Connecticut and Massachusetts wouldn't have sustained the rebels. Howe could have launched a devastating march through there to retake Boston when he was ready, possibly combined with another thrust from Newport.

    Once done, the middle colonies wouldn't have been able to put up much of a fight, and there were plenty of loyalists in the southern colonies who'd have overthrown the 'patriots' as soon as the bulk of their population had smelt the coffee.
    So long as America kept getting more populous compared to the UK, and at long as its interests diverged, then it was always going to become independent. The only question was when.
    We really ought to have supported the Confederacy in the American Civil War - United States stuck between British Canada on top and British-sponsored Confederacy below, would have made them a lot less troublesome to the world in the long term. Oh well, you live and learn.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    WillG said:

    Have we mentioned 'In the air tonight'?

    For what, cheesy rock ballads? The idea that Phil Collins can be held up as a more talented artist than modern bands like Kings of Leon or Arcade Fire just shows the age group of people posting. The music people think is greatest is disproportionately weighted towards the music you listened to from 10-25. It's like the best World Cup was the one that happened closest to when you were 10. People can't recognize their own bias.
    "modern bands like Kings of Leon or Arcade Fire."

    Fcuk. Me.

    These are indeed contemporary beat combos, m' lud.
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    WillG said:

    Have we mentioned 'In the air tonight'?

    For what, cheesy rock ballads? The idea that Phil Collins can be held up as a more talented artist than modern bands like Kings of Leon or Arcade Fire just shows the age group of people posting. The music people think is greatest is disproportionately weighted towards the music you listened to from 10-25. It's like the best World Cup was the one that happened closest to when you were 10. People can't recognize their own bias.
    The challenge on the thread, if I can remember that long ago, was best sunday afternoon in the pub all time pop track, not "talented artist".

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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,097

    WillG said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    If DeSantis (Florida's top Micheal McIntyre tribute act) primaries Trump and beats him to the nomination the Deplorables will be very butthurt and it could supress turnout.

    I think DeSantis has to go for it because, if not now, then when? Four years is a lifetime in politics and Trump's VP will probably be the GOP candidate in 2028. Assuming they are still having elections by then which is by no means a sure thing.

    Some observers disagree; they don’t think he has the bottle.

    https://steveschmidt.substack.com/p/updated-the-little-eichmann?
    … DeSantis can’t beat Trump in a primary because he isn’t tough enough. He lacks the character for direct confrontation with the big boss. He is a schemer. He wants to inherit the throne, not fight the king for it. Relations between the true seat of MAGA power and DeSantis’ backwater duchy are poor. Making a move against Trump requires courage, and the one thing that Trump is completely right about is his assessments around his court’s cowardice. He looks at DeSantis, and sees a punk. He knows that the diminutive bully strikes down, not up. Trump knows he’s weak even if the national political press corps hasn’t figured it out yet….

    Of course the Justice Department might also get a say in whether or not Trump can run.
    That strikes me as a very politically slanted piece, written from the perspective of wanting to see a vicious right wing turf war. The more obvious thing for De Santis to do would be to shower Trump with praise but argue that it's time for a new face. Say 'Trump will be the first guest of honour at my White House, and I hope to benefit from his wise counsel' - Trump would find that almost impossible to combat.
    And Trump will pick a fight and DeSantis will try to not respond, and he will be perceived as weak by Republicans that want a "fighter".
    You're right, and he's started calling him 'De Sanctimonious' (which is funny, does someone write these for him?) but if De Santis doesn't rise to it and shrugs and says 'that's our Donald', what can Trump actually do? He can ramp it up a notch but look like a c***. Trump's unerring genius is to bring people down to his level. If someone doesn't, he'll have issues.
    Trump will ramp it up a notch and he will look like a cunt and the Republican base will love him for it. Marco Rubio tried exactly what you described and failed miserably. Eventually when he was so far behind, he was advised to go down to Trump's level and that doesn't work either.
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    WillGWillG Posts: 2,097
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Re, civil war, in the majority of wars where regular soldiers are pitted against guerillas, the guerillas lose.

    Guerilla warfare is what you do when you don't have sufficient resources to maintain conventional forces. Where guerillas do well is when they are working in conjunction with regular forces (eg Vietnam, the Peninsular War, the Eastern Front from 1942-44).

    If, civil war broke out in the US, and the US army broke decisively for one side or another, that side would win

    If Howe had defeated Washington's field army in 1776, and hooked up with Burgoyne at Saratoga, then the French/Spanish wouldn't have entered the war and it's possible the British could have won it.

    Controlling Long Island, Rhode Island and the Hudson - together with the Royal Navy patrolling offshore - would have isolated the most rebellious New England colonies and even a strong militia in Connecticut and Massachusetts wouldn't have sustained the rebels. Howe could have launched a devastating march through there to retake Boston when he was ready, possibly combined with another thrust from Newport.

    Once done, the middle colonies wouldn't have been able to put up much of a fight, and there were plenty of loyalists in the southern colonies who'd have overthrown the 'patriots' as soon as the bulk of their population had smelt the coffee.
    So long as America kept getting more populous compared to the UK, and at long as its interests diverged, then it was always going to become independent. The only question was when.
    More likely to have become independent in the style of Australia or Canada.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,419
    WillG said:

    WillG said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Dura_Ace said:

    If DeSantis (Florida's top Micheal McIntyre tribute act) primaries Trump and beats him to the nomination the Deplorables will be very butthurt and it could supress turnout.

    I think DeSantis has to go for it because, if not now, then when? Four years is a lifetime in politics and Trump's VP will probably be the GOP candidate in 2028. Assuming they are still having elections by then which is by no means a sure thing.

    Some observers disagree; they don’t think he has the bottle.

    https://steveschmidt.substack.com/p/updated-the-little-eichmann?
    … DeSantis can’t beat Trump in a primary because he isn’t tough enough. He lacks the character for direct confrontation with the big boss. He is a schemer. He wants to inherit the throne, not fight the king for it. Relations between the true seat of MAGA power and DeSantis’ backwater duchy are poor. Making a move against Trump requires courage, and the one thing that Trump is completely right about is his assessments around his court’s cowardice. He looks at DeSantis, and sees a punk. He knows that the diminutive bully strikes down, not up. Trump knows he’s weak even if the national political press corps hasn’t figured it out yet….

    Of course the Justice Department might also get a say in whether or not Trump can run.
    That strikes me as a very politically slanted piece, written from the perspective of wanting to see a vicious right wing turf war. The more obvious thing for De Santis to do would be to shower Trump with praise but argue that it's time for a new face. Say 'Trump will be the first guest of honour at my White House, and I hope to benefit from his wise counsel' - Trump would find that almost impossible to combat.
    And Trump will pick a fight and DeSantis will try to not respond, and he will be perceived as weak by Republicans that want a "fighter".
    You're right, and he's started calling him 'De Sanctimonious' (which is funny, does someone write these for him?) but if De Santis doesn't rise to it and shrugs and says 'that's our Donald', what can Trump actually do? He can ramp it up a notch but look like a c***. Trump's unerring genius is to bring people down to his level. If someone doesn't, he'll have issues.
    Trump will ramp it up a notch and he will look like a cunt and the Republican base will love him for it. Marco Rubio tried exactly what you described and failed miserably. Eventually when he was so far behind, he was advised to go down to Trump's level and that doesn't work either.
    Sometimes nothing is going to work. But the standard advice on wrestling with a pig definitely applies to Trump.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Mango said:



    Seventeen is brilliant. Utterly brilliant. Timeless capture of what it feels like for many teens. Genius.

    But not, I submit, Sunday afternoon pop classic in the pub tune.

    Then you want Maggie May, don't you?
    What is your point? That is a stone cold classic if anything is, and actually not by any means a feelgood Sunday PM song if you listen to it.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,154
    WillG said:

    Have we mentioned 'In the air tonight'?

    For what, cheesy rock ballads? The idea that Phil Collins can be held up as a more talented artist than modern bands like Kings of Leon or Arcade Fire just shows the age group of people posting. The music people think is greatest is disproportionately weighted towards the music you listened to from 10-25. It's like the best World Cup was the one that happened closest to when you were 10. People can't recognize their own bias.
    By your reckoning, the Italians of La Maniera - Mannerism - could have sat back and chilled and smoked some weed and listened to Drill and said "relax, everyone, Bronzino is as good as Michelangelo, it's all great", and yet - that was not true. Italian art - for so long remarkably foremost in the world - went into swift decline. The art was literally inferior to what went before

    That is now happening to us. Pop music produced by the west (essentially the UK and USA) is not what it was. I wish it was. But it ain't
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    WillG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Re, civil war, in the majority of wars where regular soldiers are pitted against guerillas, the guerillas lose.

    Guerilla warfare is what you do when you don't have sufficient resources to maintain conventional forces. Where guerillas do well is when they are working in conjunction with regular forces (eg Vietnam, the Peninsular War, the Eastern Front from 1942-44).

    If, civil war broke out in the US, and the US army broke decisively for one side or another, that side would win

    If Howe had defeated Washington's field army in 1776, and hooked up with Burgoyne at Saratoga, then the French/Spanish wouldn't have entered the war and it's possible the British could have won it.

    Controlling Long Island, Rhode Island and the Hudson - together with the Royal Navy patrolling offshore - would have isolated the most rebellious New England colonies and even a strong militia in Connecticut and Massachusetts wouldn't have sustained the rebels. Howe could have launched a devastating march through there to retake Boston when he was ready, possibly combined with another thrust from Newport.

    Once done, the middle colonies wouldn't have been able to put up much of a fight, and there were plenty of loyalists in the southern colonies who'd have overthrown the 'patriots' as soon as the bulk of their population had smelt the coffee.
    So long as America kept getting more populous compared to the UK, and at long as its interests diverged, then it was always going to become independent. The only question was when.
    More likely to have become independent in the style of Australia or Canada.
    Australia and Canada, though, were always much smaller than the UK.

    Of course, in the event that the UK had won, then the Louisiana purchase would probably never have happened, so who knows how the future would have played out.
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    I need a friend
    Oh I need a friend
    To make me happy
    Not so alone

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ZoHfJZACA
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    Ishmael_Z said:

    WillG said:

    Have we mentioned 'In the air tonight'?

    For what, cheesy rock ballads? The idea that Phil Collins can be held up as a more talented artist than modern bands like Kings of Leon or Arcade Fire just shows the age group of people posting. The music people think is greatest is disproportionately weighted towards the music you listened to from 10-25. It's like the best World Cup was the one that happened closest to when you were 10. People can't recognize their own bias.
    "modern bands like Kings of Leon or Arcade Fire."

    Fcuk. Me.

    These are indeed contemporary beat combos, m' lud.
    I have a Wolf Alice LP so I am down with the kids.

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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Martin10 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Has anyone mentioned Just Can't get Enough. Depeche Mode?
    I'd retire on that.
    No more need to speak.

    I love Rio by Duran Duran
    Her name is Rio and she dances on the sand
    . .


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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,117
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Leon said:

    Joan Armatrading's Love and Affection is up there with Fast Car. And it has similarities

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKKtvAvak

    What a superb song

    "I am not in love, but I am open to persuasion"

    Gorgrous song, gorgeous singer.
    For bittersweet i rather like Up the Junction and Labelled with Love. In different ways just express the bleakness and shittiness of life.

    He became drinker and she became mother, she knew that one day she'd be one or the other
    True story: 15 years ago I was at the afterparty at Belladrum and talking to a bloke was playing a guitar and singing various standards and then said I'll do one of my own now. And did Up The Junction.

    Pub quiz q: what do Up The Junction and Virginia Plain have in common?
    There's a one-bedroom castle on the Belladrum estate you can rent. (The Festival was just being wrapped up when we went.)

    I have huge affection for the place. The wife was going through hell trying to get Ralph Fiennes' Coriolanus financed. Every day at breakfast I would read her two chapters of a story I had written the day before. All cliff-hanger endings. Helped keep her sane.

    That story is now being developed as animation.
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    rcs1000 said:

    WillG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Re, civil war, in the majority of wars where regular soldiers are pitted against guerillas, the guerillas lose.

    Guerilla warfare is what you do when you don't have sufficient resources to maintain conventional forces. Where guerillas do well is when they are working in conjunction with regular forces (eg Vietnam, the Peninsular War, the Eastern Front from 1942-44).

    If, civil war broke out in the US, and the US army broke decisively for one side or another, that side would win

    If Howe had defeated Washington's field army in 1776, and hooked up with Burgoyne at Saratoga, then the French/Spanish wouldn't have entered the war and it's possible the British could have won it.

    Controlling Long Island, Rhode Island and the Hudson - together with the Royal Navy patrolling offshore - would have isolated the most rebellious New England colonies and even a strong militia in Connecticut and Massachusetts wouldn't have sustained the rebels. Howe could have launched a devastating march through there to retake Boston when he was ready, possibly combined with another thrust from Newport.

    Once done, the middle colonies wouldn't have been able to put up much of a fight, and there were plenty of loyalists in the southern colonies who'd have overthrown the 'patriots' as soon as the bulk of their population had smelt the coffee.
    So long as America kept getting more populous compared to the UK, and at long as its interests diverged, then it was always going to become independent. The only question was when.
    More likely to have become independent in the style of Australia or Canada.
    Australia and Canada, though, were always much smaller than the UK.

    Of course, in the event that the UK had won, then the Louisiana purchase would probably never have happened, so who knows how the future would have played out.
    Not as a purchase, but recall that Napoleon sold it to the USA in 1803, we were at war with Napoleon then (except for the brief peace of Amiens) and we were rather aggressive in taking French colonies.

    We'd probably have invaded it.
This discussion has been closed.