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  • Martin10Martin10 Posts: 142
    BREAKING: Facebook parent, $META, plans to begin laying off thousands of employees this week, per WSJ.

    https://twitter.com/unusual_whales/status/1589360786774065153?s=20&t=6XXGHi9XwUtUrgpTAqcepQ
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not sure 9/11 really makes the cut. Like saving private Ryan and pearl harbor the cinematic centrepiece is so mind-blowing it obscures a pretty ordinary narrative.

    I think there's an analogy with Pearl Harbor - Americans liked to think they were somehow invulnerable but 9/11 dispelled that with a vengeance. For London, 7/7 was awful but we'd lived with terror for nearly 40 years though not suicide bombers which was the new dimension.

    It impacted American policy directly not only through the eventual Iraq invasion in 2003 and the cover the Bin Laden attacks but also the money successive Republican legislatures poured into defence (and the profits made by defence contractors) came home to roost when the Democrats won the House in 2006 and the extent of the economic exposure became clear.

    I genuinely think there was a brief period of euphoria (remember Fukayama) in the early 90s where it was believed we now lived in a unipolar world where the triumph of western liberal democracy was inevitable. The reality of the conflicts which had in some ways been masked by Soviet imperialism was then uncovered as Moscow withdrew from Europe and Africa.

    Fukayama lol, that End of History stuff was always hubristic nonsense

    Worrying that when I start typing his name phone now autocorrects to fuck.
    Read the book. There's nothing hubristic about it. 30 years later has anyone come up with a compelling alternative to liberal democracy? No.
    Liberal democracy is Monty Python's black knight. You can be as compelled by it as you like, but it has given way to plutocratic demagoguery here, it is history in the US when Trump gets back in, India is under a racist tyrant and it doesn't seem to have been very good at displacing communism anywhere since 1989. Where has it triumphed?

    Ditto "liberal capitalism" but more so. It has been shown since Fukuyama to be humanity's worst mistake. Either it destroys the planet via climate change or climate change destroys it. Because Truss was sort of right, enemies Of Growth are a thing and getting progressively thingier, because they have the only position it is rationally possible to have.
    I’d say liberal capitalism is doing a pretty decent job of (finally) mitigating climate change through the twin forces of the market and democratic pressure.
    We haven't mitigated it yet, have we? Bookmark this conv for 10 years time.

    China is way ahead of most of the democratic world both on decarbonising itself and in design mfr and export of renewables kit, so not a huge win for liberalism there.
    Whether through eugenic mating or cosmetic surgery, China is also producing more HOT TEEN GIRLS

    The West is totally finished
    and a big factor in male motivation to work is hot young women....if you are a young man surrounded by obese women i think you are much less likely to work hard than if you are surrounded by hot young women....it is human nature in action.....
    So let’s compare the performance of the Russian army vs, say, the US one?
    Yes but that is because russia is technologically inferior to the usa...if technology was equal i think the russians would win as russians are more willing to die
    Willingness to die is an overrated attribute. It means the whole military apparatus isn’t set up to preserve life and health, and ultimately that means hanging people out to dry.
    No doubt there have been criticisms of some generals in history for being too keen to preserve the lives of their troop, as if it is somehow cheating.

    I mean, sure, you have to take risks in war I would guess, but fanatical stubborness only gets you so far I assume.
    Several generals in the US Civil War were sacked for it. McLellan, whom Lincoln dismissed with the words 'if you don't want to use the army, I should like to borrow it for a while,' and Davis dismissed Joe Johnson of the Confederate army for refusing to engage the numerically superior army under Sherman while at a disadvantage of ground.

    Then you have the Duke of Wellington, whose political opponents were highly critical of his constant retreats, yet somehow failed to notice he never lost a battle and conquered Spain and France as a result.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Continuing tonight's musical nostalgia theme, Tracy Chapman's first album called Tracy Chapman is mindblowingly good.

    Do you know about Linda Lewis?
    No. Will add to list.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    I honestly think you're living in a fantasy world of your own.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    I spent a brief moment at a pub this afternoon with a nice pint of Harvey’s best, and they were playing Jerry Rafferty - Baker Street. It struck me as being the ultimate autumn Sunday afternoon pub track. I had an almost Proustian response to it.

    It was one of very few tracks that is absolutely perfect in every respect.
    Pretty much the only other one being Sultans of Swing from I think the same year?

    JR was an unhappy character.
    GR!

    Bit of a see u next Tuesday when on the bevvy I believe.
    Gonna see the Fratellis next week talking of edgy central belt music.
    Get your skinny jeans and winklepickers laid out. Haven’t kept up with them lately but liked them when I did.

    Got tickets for Peat and Diesel for the new year for a bit of Lewis and Harris edginess, chuffed as they always seem to sell out in a flash.
    Wilco, polishing up the snip toe Tony Lamas.

    As with Del Amitri they deserved to make it bigger than they did. In theory they are supporting Kaiser Chiefs, to me it's other way round.
    Del Amitri were great. Four or five classic songs

    Their problem was that they arrived in a time of Pop Music Plenty, when there was so much talent exploding everywhere, some really good stuff was sneglected

    That said, Wiki says they sold "6 million albums" which is pretty bloody impressive, so yay Del Amitri


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Amitri
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Continuing tonight's musical nostalgia theme, Tracy Chapman's first album called Tracy Chapman is mindblowingly good.

    Do you know about Linda Lewis?
    This is somehow over fifty years old

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6WBcNuvkPI
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    BigRich said:

    Alistair said:

    I know there are related contingencies going on so it is not as clear as I am making it out but the Senate Control and Senate State markets are out of whack on Betfair.

    Currently punters are giving the GOP a 66% chance of winning control of the Senate.

    But if you look at the odds for

    Georgia
    Nevada
    Pennsylvania
    Arizona

    (Which are realistically the only states that matter for the purpose of the bet given how far out Dems are on any other state - and even ignores that absolute wild card of New Hampshire which is in the mix).

    Based on these states Betfair is giving the GOP a >80% chance of controlling the senate (i.e. Retain Pennsylvania and take at least 1 of the remaining 3 or lose Pennsylvania and take at least 2 of the remaining 3).

    It does very much seem like the value bet is currently betting on GOP Senate control.

    this might be because of Utah where a Conservative leaning independent is putting up a reasonably good challenge to the republican incumbent, and the democrats are not running a candidate.

    I don't think he is odds on to win but it might crate a difference between Number of seats and control of seniti?
    My man Evan McMuffin is doing way better than I expected but he's like at 15s on Betfair and I expect him to finish at least 10 points behind and more like 15 poonts behind at best.
  • Martin10Martin10 Posts: 142
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not sure 9/11 really makes the cut. Like saving private Ryan and pearl harbor the cinematic centrepiece is so mind-blowing it obscures a pretty ordinary narrative.

    I think there's an analogy with Pearl Harbor - Americans liked to think they were somehow invulnerable but 9/11 dispelled that with a vengeance. For London, 7/7 was awful but we'd lived with terror for nearly 40 years though not suicide bombers which was the new dimension.

    It impacted American policy directly not only through the eventual Iraq invasion in 2003 and the cover the Bin Laden attacks but also the money successive Republican legislatures poured into defence (and the profits made by defence contractors) came home to roost when the Democrats won the House in 2006 and the extent of the economic exposure became clear.

    I genuinely think there was a brief period of euphoria (remember Fukayama) in the early 90s where it was believed we now lived in a unipolar world where the triumph of western liberal democracy was inevitable. The reality of the conflicts which had in some ways been masked by Soviet imperialism was then uncovered as Moscow withdrew from Europe and Africa.

    Fukayama lol, that End of History stuff was always hubristic nonsense

    Worrying that when I start typing his name phone now autocorrects to fuck.
    Read the book. There's nothing hubristic about it. 30 years later has anyone come up with a compelling alternative to liberal democracy? No.
    Liberal democracy is Monty Python's black knight. You can be as compelled by it as you like, but it has given way to plutocratic demagoguery here, it is history in the US when Trump gets back in, India is under a racist tyrant and it doesn't seem to have been very good at displacing communism anywhere since 1989. Where has it triumphed?

    Ditto "liberal capitalism" but more so. It has been shown since Fukuyama to be humanity's worst mistake. Either it destroys the planet via climate change or climate change destroys it. Because Truss was sort of right, enemies Of Growth are a thing and getting progressively thingier, because they have the only position it is rationally possible to have.
    I’d say liberal capitalism is doing a pretty decent job of (finally) mitigating climate change through the twin forces of the market and democratic pressure.
    We haven't mitigated it yet, have we? Bookmark this conv for 10 years time.

    China is way ahead of most of the democratic world both on decarbonising itself and in design mfr and export of renewables kit, so not a huge win for liberalism there.
    Whether through eugenic mating or cosmetic surgery, China is also producing more HOT TEEN GIRLS

    The West is totally finished
    and a big factor in male motivation to work is hot young women....if you are a young man surrounded by obese women i think you are much less likely to work hard than if you are surrounded by hot young women....it is human nature in action.....
    So let’s compare the performance of the Russian army vs, say, the US one?
    Yes but that is because russia is technologically inferior to the usa...if technology was equal i think the russians would win as russians are more willing to die
    Willingness to die is an overrated attribute. It means the whole military apparatus isn’t set up to preserve life and health, and ultimately that means hanging people out to dry.
    No doubt there have been criticisms of some generals in history for being too keen to preserve the lives of their troop, as if it is somehow cheating.

    I mean, sure, you have to take risks in war I would guess, but fanatical stubborness only gets you so far I assume.
    Several generals in the US Civil War were sacked for it. McLellan, whom Lincoln dismissed with the words 'if you don't want to use the army, I should like to borrow it for a while,' and Davis dismissed Joe Johnson of the Confederate army for refusing to engage the numerically superior army under Sherman while at a disadvantage of ground.

    Then you have the Duke of Wellington, whose political opponents were highly critical of his constant retreats, yet somehow failed to notice he never lost a battle and conquered Spain and France as a result.
    I find military strategy fascinating...like a combination of chess and poker with much bluffing and deception...
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not sure 9/11 really makes the cut. Like saving private Ryan and pearl harbor the cinematic centrepiece is so mind-blowing it obscures a pretty ordinary narrative.

    I think there's an analogy with Pearl Harbor - Americans liked to think they were somehow invulnerable but 9/11 dispelled that with a vengeance. For London, 7/7 was awful but we'd lived with terror for nearly 40 years though not suicide bombers which was the new dimension.

    It impacted American policy directly not only through the eventual Iraq invasion in 2003 and the cover the Bin Laden attacks but also the money successive Republican legislatures poured into defence (and the profits made by defence contractors) came home to roost when the Democrats won the House in 2006 and the extent of the economic exposure became clear.

    I genuinely think there was a brief period of euphoria (remember Fukayama) in the early 90s where it was believed we now lived in a unipolar world where the triumph of western liberal democracy was inevitable. The reality of the conflicts which had in some ways been masked by Soviet imperialism was then uncovered as Moscow withdrew from Europe and Africa.

    Fukayama lol, that End of History stuff was always hubristic nonsense

    Worrying that when I start typing his name phone now autocorrects to fuck.
    Read the book. There's nothing hubristic about it. 30 years later has anyone come up with a compelling alternative to liberal democracy? No.
    Liberal democracy is Monty Python's black knight. You can be as compelled by it as you like, but it has given way to plutocratic demagoguery here, it is history in the US when Trump gets back in, India is under a racist tyrant and it doesn't seem to have been very good at displacing communism anywhere since 1989. Where has it triumphed?

    Ditto "liberal capitalism" but more so. It has been shown since Fukuyama to be humanity's worst mistake. Either it destroys the planet via climate change or climate change destroys it. Because Truss was sort of right, enemies Of Growth are a thing and getting progressively thingier, because they have the only position it is rationally possible to have.
    I’d say liberal capitalism is doing a pretty decent job of (finally) mitigating climate
    change through the twin forces of the market and democratic pressure.
    We haven't mitigated it yet, have we? Bookmark this conv for 10 years time.

    China is way ahead of most of the democratic world both on decarbonising itself and in design mfr and export of renewables kit, so not a huge win for liberalism there.
    Must be a new kind of coal

    https://www.greenpeace.org/eastasia/press/7488/plans-for-new-coal-plants-in-china-rebound-with-8-63-gw-approved-in-the-first-quarter-of-2022/

    Alternatively look at carbon dioxide per capita. I could only find 2016 stats easily but they make the point

    China 7.38 tons per person

    Uk, Italy, France, Spain all around 5.5-6.0

    Germany worse and the US is awful. But we knew that anyway

    https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/
    Yes.

    "“Building more coal-fired power capacity will not provide energy security for China. This is a deep-seated falsehood. It’s part of a traditional mindset about the energy sector that clawed its way back into prominence rather quickly. An overcapacity of this one energy source is a major hurdle for energy security, as well as China’s energy transition. China’s power inadequacies do not originate from low generation capacity. China has an overcapacity of coal-fired power plants. Power inadequacies originate from poor integration of generation, grid, load, and storage,” said Wu Jinghan, the climate & energy campaigner in Greenpeace East Asia’s Beijing office."

    S/he would say that, wouldn't they? It must be a very unusual sort of coal if having lots of it and lots of coal fired power stations contributes nothing to your energy security. And "Power inadequacies originate from poor integration of generation, grid, load, and storage" can be true while it is also true that the quckest temporary fix for the problem, is coal. And if you are a 1.4bn person nation trying to modernise itself you need to smelt a whole heap of steel to modernise your infrastructure, including power infrastructure.

    And that's before we get on to the point that they are burning that coal to make YOUR phone and car and computer and white goods and clothes and for that matter, solar panels and wind turbines.

    Greenpeace is a malevolent organisation. But the point was China is building lots of coal fired power stations.

    Quite simply you are completely and utterly wrong. They are not decarbonising their economy: they are resisting pressure for net zero. They see it as an opportunity to steal a match in the foolish west
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    .
    Dura_Ace said:

    If DeSantis (Florida's top Micheal McIntyre tribute act) primaries Trump and beats him to the nomination the Deplorables will be very butthurt and it could supress turnout.

    I think DeSantis has to go for it because, if not now, then when? Four years is a lifetime in politics and Trump's VP will probably be the GOP candidate in 2028. Assuming they are still having elections by then which is by no means a sure thing.

    Some observers disagree; they don’t think he has the bottle.

    https://steveschmidt.substack.com/p/updated-the-little-eichmann?
    … DeSantis can’t beat Trump in a primary because he isn’t tough enough. He lacks the character for direct confrontation with the big boss. He is a schemer. He wants to inherit the throne, not fight the king for it. Relations between the true seat of MAGA power and DeSantis’ backwater duchy are poor. Making a move against Trump requires courage, and the one thing that Trump is completely right about is his assessments around his court’s cowardice. He looks at DeSantis, and sees a punk. He knows that the diminutive bully strikes down, not up. Trump knows he’s weak even if the national political press corps hasn’t figured it out yet….

    Of course the Justice Department might also get a say in whether or not Trump can run.
  • Martin10Martin10 Posts: 142

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    I honestly think you're living in a fantasy world of your own.
    Might seem farfetched but imagine coverage of an american civil war on our tv screens every night...we know how humans have a herd mentality
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I’m not an expert on the psyches of Confederates but all I’ve read suggests that they had an almost mystical faith in the rightness of their cause. I’m fairly sure knowing deep down that the North could and would crush them economically was more crippling to them.
    I've always struggled with the American civil war. If the states were right to rebel against the British, why shouldn't the south break away? Why did the north fight? It wasn't really to free slaves. Most wars I can understand why people fought for what they did, but I can't get my head round why a Northern soldier signed up. Any help from the historians on pb appreciated.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    My guess is, any weaponry beyond AR15s depends on software and maintenance controlled by nerds in the Pentagon, so whole regiments defecting to MAGA will just mean more fatties with rifles cos their helicopters and tanks and shit will stop working.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not sure 9/11 really makes the cut. Like saving private Ryan and pearl harbor the cinematic centrepiece is so mind-blowing it obscures a pretty ordinary narrative.

    I think there's an analogy with Pearl Harbor - Americans liked to think they were somehow invulnerable but 9/11 dispelled that with a vengeance. For London, 7/7 was awful but we'd lived with terror for nearly 40 years though not suicide bombers which was the new dimension.

    It impacted American policy directly not only through the eventual Iraq invasion in 2003 and the cover the Bin Laden attacks but also the money successive Republican legislatures poured into defence (and the profits made by defence contractors) came home to roost when the Democrats won the House in 2006 and the extent of the economic exposure became clear.

    I genuinely think there was a brief period of euphoria (remember Fukayama) in the early 90s where it was believed we now lived in a unipolar world where the triumph of western liberal democracy was inevitable. The reality of the conflicts which had in some ways been masked by Soviet imperialism was then uncovered as Moscow withdrew from Europe and Africa.

    Fukayama lol, that End of History stuff was always hubristic nonsense

    Worrying that when I start typing his name phone now autocorrects to fuck.
    Read the book. There's nothing hubristic about it. 30 years later has anyone come up with a compelling alternative to liberal democracy? No.
    Liberal democracy is Monty Python's black knight. You can be as compelled by it as you like, but it has given way to plutocratic demagoguery here, it is history in the US when Trump gets back in, India is under a racist tyrant and it doesn't seem to have been very good at displacing communism anywhere since 1989. Where has it triumphed?

    Ditto "liberal capitalism" but more so. It has been shown since Fukuyama to be humanity's worst mistake. Either it destroys the planet via climate change or climate change destroys it. Because Truss was sort of right, enemies Of Growth are a thing and getting progressively thingier, because they have the only position it is rationally possible to have.
    I’d say liberal capitalism is doing a pretty decent job of (finally) mitigating climate
    change through the twin forces of the market and democratic pressure.
    We haven't mitigated it yet, have we? Bookmark this conv for 10 years time.

    China is way ahead of most of the democratic world both on decarbonising itself and in design mfr and export of renewables kit, so not a huge win for liberalism there.
    Must be a new kind of coal

    https://www.greenpeace.org/eastasia/press/7488/plans-for-new-coal-plants-in-china-rebound-with-8-63-gw-approved-in-the-first-quarter-of-2022/

    Alternatively look at carbon dioxide per capita. I could only find 2016 stats easily but they make the point

    China 7.38 tons per person

    Uk, Italy, France, Spain all around 5.5-6.0

    Germany worse and the US is awful. But we knew that anyway

    https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/
    Yes.

    "“Building more coal-fired power capacity will not provide energy security for China. This is a deep-seated falsehood. It’s part of a traditional mindset about the energy sector that clawed its way back into prominence rather quickly. An overcapacity of this one energy source is a major hurdle for energy security, as well as China’s energy transition. China’s power inadequacies do not originate from low generation capacity. China has an overcapacity of coal-fired power plants. Power inadequacies originate from poor integration of generation, grid, load, and storage,” said Wu Jinghan, the climate & energy campaigner in Greenpeace East Asia’s Beijing office."

    S/he would say that, wouldn't they? It must be a very unusual sort of coal if having lots of it and lots of coal fired power stations contributes nothing to your energy security. And "Power inadequacies originate from poor integration of generation, grid, load, and storage" can be true while it is also true that the quckest temporary fix for the problem, is coal. And if you are a 1.4bn person nation trying to modernise itself you need to smelt a whole heap of steel to modernise your infrastructure, including power infrastructure.

    And that's before we get on to the point that they are burning that coal to make YOUR phone and car and computer and white goods and clothes and for that matter, solar panels and wind turbines.

    Greenpeace is a malevolent organisation. But the point was China is building lots of coal fired power stations.

    Quite simply you are completely and utterly wrong. They are not decarbonising their economy: they are resisting pressure for net zero. They see it as an opportunity to steal a match in the foolish west
    Paranoid racist nonsense. 3 Gorges Dam would power the whole UK, with lots left over.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I’m not an expert on the psyches of Confederates but all I’ve read suggests that they had an almost mystical faith in the rightness of their cause. I’m fairly sure knowing deep down that the North could and would crush them economically was more crippling to them.
    I think the real problem is they never believed it would come to sustained fighting. They assumed that when the first couple of invasions of the south were repelled the Union would come to terms, or be forced to by foreign governments (notably France and Britain) anxious to buy southern cotton.

    In this they were of course totally mistaken but it's not in itself an illogical train of thought. Had Lincoln been less resolute or had the Democrats had a majority in Congress it might even have worked.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259
    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not sure 9/11 really makes the cut. Like saving private Ryan and pearl harbor the cinematic centrepiece is so mind-blowing it obscures a pretty ordinary narrative.

    I think there's an analogy with Pearl Harbor - Americans liked to think they were somehow invulnerable but 9/11 dispelled that with a vengeance. For London, 7/7 was awful but we'd lived with terror for nearly 40 years though not suicide bombers which was the new dimension.

    It impacted American policy directly not only through the eventual Iraq invasion in 2003 and the cover the Bin Laden attacks but also the money successive Republican legislatures poured into defence (and the profits made by defence contractors) came home to roost when the Democrats won the House in 2006 and the extent of the economic exposure became clear.

    I genuinely think there was a brief period of euphoria (remember Fukayama) in the early 90s where it was believed we now lived in a unipolar world where the triumph of western liberal democracy was inevitable. The reality of the conflicts which had in some ways been masked by Soviet imperialism was then uncovered as Moscow withdrew from Europe and Africa.

    Fukayama lol, that End of History stuff was always hubristic nonsense

    Worrying that when I start typing his name phone now autocorrects to fuck.
    Read the book. There's nothing hubristic about it. 30 years later has anyone come up with a compelling alternative to liberal democracy? No.
    Liberal democracy is Monty Python's black knight. You can be as compelled by it as you like, but it has given way to plutocratic demagoguery here, it is history in the US when Trump gets back in, India is under a racist tyrant and it doesn't seem to have been very good at displacing communism anywhere since 1989. Where has it triumphed?

    Ditto "liberal capitalism" but more so. It has been shown since Fukuyama to be humanity's worst mistake. Either it destroys the planet via climate change or climate change destroys it. Because Truss was sort of right, enemies Of Growth are a thing and getting progressively thingier, because they have the only position it is rationally possible to have.
    I’d say liberal capitalism is doing a pretty decent job of (finally) mitigating climate change through the twin forces of the market and democratic pressure.
    We haven't mitigated it yet, have we? Bookmark this conv for 10 years time.

    China is way ahead of most of the democratic world both on decarbonising itself and in design mfr and export of renewables kit, so not a huge win for liberalism there.
    Whether through eugenic mating or cosmetic surgery, China is also producing more HOT TEEN GIRLS

    The West is totally finished
    and a big factor in male motivation to work is hot young women....if you are a young man surrounded by obese women i think you are much less likely to work hard than if you are surrounded by hot young women....it is human nature in action.....
    So let’s compare the performance of the Russian army vs, say, the US one?
    Yes but that is because russia is technologically inferior to the usa...if technology was equal i think the russians would win as russians are more willing to die
    Training matters

    We’ve seen the unfortunate consequence of untrained conscripts being flung at prepared defensive positions in recent days
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259
    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    Maybe america should split in 2
    One part white christian with immigration only from northern europe
    The other part multicultural with immigration from all over the world
    Let the 2 parts compete
    That sounds like the Union vs the Confederacy
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    I spent a brief moment at a pub this afternoon with a nice pint of Harvey’s best, and they were playing Jerry Rafferty - Baker Street. It struck me as being the ultimate autumn Sunday afternoon pub track. I had an almost Proustian response to it.

    It was one of very few tracks that is absolutely perfect in every respect.
    Pretty much the only other one being Sultans of Swing from I think the same year?

    JR was an unhappy character.
    GR!

    Bit of a see u next Tuesday when on the bevvy I believe.
    Gonna see the Fratellis next week talking of edgy central belt music.
    Get your skinny jeans and winklepickers laid out. Haven’t kept up with them lately but liked them when I did.

    Got tickets for Peat and Diesel for the new year for a bit of Lewis and Harris edginess, chuffed as they always seem to sell out in a flash.
    Wilco, polishing up the snip toe Tony Lamas.

    As with Del Amitri they deserved to make it bigger than they did. In theory they are supporting Kaiser Chiefs, to me it's other way round.
    Del Amitri were great. Four or five classic songs

    Their problem was that they arrived in a time of Pop Music Plenty, when there was so much talent exploding everywhere, some really good stuff was sneglected

    That said, Wiki says they sold "6 million albums" which is pretty bloody impressive, so yay Del Amitri


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Amitri
    Every song on the first 2 albums (del amitri, waking hours) was superb.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    I'm ready.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I’m not an expert on the psyches of Confederates but all I’ve read suggests that they had an almost mystical faith in the rightness of their cause. I’m fairly sure knowing deep down that the North could and would crush them economically was more crippling to them.
    I've always struggled with the American civil war. If the states were right to rebel against the British, why shouldn't the south break away? Why did the north fight? It wasn't really to free slaves. Most wars I can understand why people fought for what they did, but I can't get my head round why a Northern soldier signed up. Any help from the historians on pb appreciated.
    Treason doth never prosper - why? What's the reason?
    Well, if it doth prosper, none dare call it treason.

    There were two generals. Both slaveholders, although one freed his slaves in his lifetime and the other at his death. Both officially junior officers, although that was mostly to do with the ranking system rather than their actual seniority. Both from Virginia. Both were retired from the army. Both turned on the country to which they had sworn allegiance. One won all bar three of his battles but lost the war, the other won no major battles at all but won his war.

    Which one is the villain and the loser?

    Well, obviously the one who freed his slaves and won his battles.

    Because the other is George Washington.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259

    TimS said:

    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not sure 9/11 really makes the cut. Like saving private Ryan and pearl harbor the cinematic centrepiece is so mind-blowing it obscures a pretty ordinary narrative.

    I think there's an analogy with Pearl Harbor - Americans liked to think they were somehow invulnerable but 9/11 dispelled that with a vengeance. For London, 7/7 was awful but we'd lived with terror for nearly 40 years though not suicide bombers which was the new dimension.

    It impacted American policy directly not only through the eventual Iraq invasion in 2003 and the cover the Bin Laden attacks but also the money successive Republican legislatures poured into defence (and the profits made by defence contractors) came home to roost when the Democrats won the House in 2006 and the extent of the economic exposure became clear.

    I genuinely think there was a brief period of euphoria (remember Fukayama) in the early 90s where it was believed we now lived in a unipolar world where the triumph of western liberal democracy was inevitable. The reality of the conflicts which had in some ways been masked by Soviet imperialism was then uncovered as Moscow withdrew from Europe and Africa.

    Fukayama lol, that End of History stuff was always hubristic nonsense

    Worrying that when I start typing his name phone now autocorrects to fuck.
    Read the book. There's nothing hubristic about it. 30 years later has anyone come up with a compelling alternative to liberal democracy? No.
    Liberal democracy is Monty Python's black knight. You can be as compelled by it as you like, but it has given way to plutocratic demagoguery here, it is history in the US when Trump gets back in, India is under a racist tyrant and it doesn't seem to have been very good at displacing communism anywhere since 1989. Where has it triumphed?

    Ditto "liberal capitalism" but more so. It has been shown since Fukuyama to be humanity's worst mistake. Either it destroys the planet via climate change or climate change destroys it. Because Truss was sort of right, enemies Of Growth are a thing and getting progressively thingier, because they have the only position it is rationally possible to have.
    I’d say liberal capitalism is doing a pretty decent job of (finally) mitigating climate change through the twin forces of the market and democratic pressure.
    We haven't mitigated it yet, have we? Bookmark this conv for 10 years time.

    China is way ahead of most of the democratic world both on decarbonising itself and in design mfr and export of renewables kit, so not a huge win for liberalism there.
    Whether through eugenic mating or cosmetic surgery, China is also producing more HOT TEEN GIRLS

    The West is totally finished
    and a big factor in male motivation to work is hot young women....if you are a young man surrounded by obese women i think you are much less likely to work hard than if you are surrounded by hot young women....it is human nature in action.....
    So let’s compare the performance of the Russian army vs, say, the US one?
    Yes but that is because russia is technologically inferior to the usa...if technology was equal i think the russians would win as russians are more willing to die
    Willingness to die is an overrated attribute. It means the whole military apparatus isn’t set up to preserve life and health, and ultimately that means hanging people out to dry.

    You continue your country’s death wish but the future of warfare is zero-casualty conflict.
    Warfare is essentially the use of force to achieve political objectives.

    Bravery and calculated risk-tasking is necessary to achieve that but it's pretty mad to glorify needless sacrifice on your own side for its own sake, and casualties should be both minimised and regretted by any sane commander.
    That’s just bastardising Clausewitz

    “War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means”

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Interesting article by a polling group in America.

    I was very persuaded by the "Differential Poll response casued by Democracts being more likely to be staying at home during Covid" as the reason why the 2020 polls in America were crap.

    This polling group says they are seeing a disproportionate level of "Vax + Boosted" respondents in their polls

    https://wickinsights.com/predicting2022-part-4/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Martin10 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not sure 9/11 really makes the cut. Like saving private Ryan and pearl harbor the cinematic centrepiece is so mind-blowing it obscures a pretty ordinary narrative.

    I think there's an analogy with Pearl Harbor - Americans liked to think they were somehow invulnerable but 9/11 dispelled that with a vengeance. For London, 7/7 was awful but we'd lived with terror for nearly 40 years though not suicide bombers which was the new dimension.

    It impacted American policy directly not only through the eventual Iraq invasion in 2003 and the cover the Bin Laden attacks but also the money successive Republican legislatures poured into defence (and the profits made by defence contractors) came home to roost when the Democrats won the House in 2006 and the extent of the economic exposure became clear.

    I genuinely think there was a brief period of euphoria (remember Fukayama) in the early 90s where it was believed we now lived in a unipolar world where the triumph of western liberal democracy was inevitable. The reality of the conflicts which had in some ways been masked by Soviet imperialism was then uncovered as Moscow withdrew from Europe and Africa.

    Fukayama lol, that End of History stuff was always hubristic nonsense

    Worrying that when I start typing his name phone now autocorrects to fuck.
    Read the book. There's nothing hubristic about it. 30 years later has anyone come up with a compelling alternative to liberal democracy? No.
    Liberal democracy is Monty Python's black knight. You can be as compelled by it as you like, but it has given way to plutocratic demagoguery here, it is history in the US when Trump gets back in, India is under a racist tyrant and it doesn't seem to have been very good at displacing communism anywhere since 1989. Where has it triumphed?

    Ditto "liberal capitalism" but more so. It has been shown since Fukuyama to be humanity's worst mistake. Either it destroys the planet via climate change or climate change destroys it. Because Truss was sort of right, enemies Of Growth are a thing and getting progressively thingier, because they have the only position it is rationally possible to have.
    I’d say liberal capitalism is doing a pretty decent job of (finally) mitigating climate change through the twin forces of the market and democratic pressure.
    We haven't mitigated it yet, have we? Bookmark this conv for 10 years time.

    China is way ahead of most of the democratic world both on decarbonising itself and in design mfr and export of renewables kit, so not a huge win for liberalism there.
    Whether through eugenic mating or cosmetic surgery, China is also producing more HOT TEEN GIRLS

    The West is totally finished
    and a big factor in male motivation to work is hot young women....if you are a young man surrounded by obese women i think you are much less likely to work hard than if you are surrounded by hot young women....it is human nature in action.....
    So let’s compare the performance of the Russian army vs, say, the US one?
    Yes but that is because russia is technologically inferior to the usa...if technology was equal i think the russians would win as russians are more willing to die
    Willingness to die is an overrated attribute. It means the whole military apparatus isn’t set up to preserve life and health, and ultimately that means hanging people out to dry.
    No doubt there have been criticisms of some generals in history for being too keen to preserve the lives of their troop, as if it is somehow cheating.

    I mean, sure, you have to take risks in war I would guess, but fanatical stubborness only gets you so far I assume.
    Several generals in the US Civil War were sacked for it. McLellan, whom Lincoln dismissed with the words 'if you don't want to use the army, I should like to borrow it for a while,' and Davis dismissed Joe Johnson of the Confederate army for refusing to engage the numerically superior army under Sherman while at a disadvantage of ground.

    Then you have the Duke of Wellington, whose political opponents were highly critical of his constant retreats, yet somehow failed to notice he never lost a battle and conquered Spain and France as a result.
    I find military strategy fascinating...like a combination of chess and poker with much bluffing and deception...
    The Russian generals are clearly magnificent at bluff and deception.

    If only they practiced it on their opponents and not on the Kremlin's auditors...
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Continuing tonight's musical nostalgia theme, Tracy Chapman's first album called Tracy Chapman is mindblowingly good.

    One of my all time favourites recently rediscovered

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DwrHwZyFN7M
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,671
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    My guess is, any weaponry beyond AR15s depends on software and maintenance controlled by nerds in the Pentagon, so whole regiments defecting to MAGA will just mean more fatties with rifles cos their helicopters and tanks and shit will stop working.
    Logistics, innit.

    I'd be more worried about the police - they are semi-militarised in the states, long guns, APCs etc. If a few Republican Governors manage to persuade them to ignore federal law, would be very difficult for a President to make the order to take them out.

    Does anyone know how the National Guard would react? They have a split loyalty.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Martin10 said:

    BREAKING: Facebook parent, $META, plans to begin laying off thousands of employees this week, per WSJ.

    https://twitter.com/unusual_whales/status/1589360786774065153?s=20&t=6XXGHi9XwUtUrgpTAqcepQ

    probably not good for the Californian economy?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    edited November 2022
    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    I honestly think you're living in a fantasy world of your own.
    Might seem farfetched but imagine coverage of an american civil war on our tv screens every night...we know how humans have a herd mentality
    Don't be dumb. No one looks at news footage of another country tearing itself apart and thinks 'oh, maybe we should do that too'.

    Also, re: "woke leftists vs the white working class". No one gives a shit about 'woke' beyond a few right-wing nut jobs (some of whom are on here). People care about not being able to pay their fuel bills, afford the rent/mortgage, do their weekly shop, get a doctors appointment if they need one. They worry about climate change, about their jobs, their kids getting a decent education, their older relatives having proper social care, whether an ambulance would turn up if they need one. Stuff like that.

    Woke, not so much.

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,718
    James Naughty on Ron DeSantis on R4 just now.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Ishmael_Z said:


    My guess is, any weaponry beyond AR15s depends on software and maintenance controlled by nerds in the Pentagon, so whole regiments defecting to MAGA will just mean more fatties with rifles cos their helicopters and tanks and shit will stop working.

    Whoever controls the comms and logistics will win. So the incumbent Federal Government (of whatever flavour) has a massive advantage.

    Anybody expecting mutiny or barratry from any significant component of the US military will be disappointed.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,671
    Dura_Ace said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    I'm ready.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cyclist_Corps
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    I honestly think you're living in a fantasy world of your own.
    Might seem farfetched but imagine coverage of an american civil war on our tv screens every night...we know how humans have a herd mentality
    Don't be dumb. No one looks at news footage of another country tearing itself apart and thinks 'oh, maybe we should do that too'.

    Also, re: "woke leftists vs the white working class". No one gives a shit about 'woke' beyond a few right-wing nut jobs (some of whom are on here). People care about not being able to pay their fuel bills, afford the rent/mortgage, do their weekly shop, get a doctors appointment if they need one. They worry about climate change, about their jobs, their kids getting a decent education, their older relatives having proper social care, whether an ambulance would turn up if they need one.

    Stuff like that. Woke, not so much.

    You are delusionally wrong. Woke is so advanced in America: and many people care

    People like you reckon it is the same as a Daily Mail scare story from the 90s. You think this is "political correctness gone mad"

    That's as bad an error as identifying Covid as "just another flu"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662
    There will be no American Civil War, and an English one even less likely. A Russian one? Quite possible.

    The reason is geography. There is no geographical border between Republican and Democrat areas, and even in States like Florida or Texas the population has a major Democrat minority, and California a substantive Republican one.

    That is not to say US politics isn't going to be toxic, and full of skullduggery, but war in any realistic sense of the word? Simply no.

    And here, yes there is likely to be social hardship in a way not seen in over a decade, or even possibly since the early Eighties, but actually the difference between Starmarism and Sunakism is a matter of a few percent here and there. With the fall of Truss, the ideological divide ended. The financial speculators call the tune on both parties, and for that matter the SNP. Sovereignty? What sovereignty?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Alistair said:

    Interesting article by a polling group in America.

    I was very persuaded by the "Differential Poll response casued by Democracts being more likely to be staying at home during Covid" as the reason why the 2020 polls in America were crap.

    This polling group says they are seeing a disproportionate level of "Vax + Boosted" respondents in their polls

    https://wickinsights.com/predicting2022-part-4/

    Of course, then I look at one of their polls and it had 50/50 demographics for men/women when even Trafalgar knows it should be something like 46/54.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,792
    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    I spent a brief moment at a pub this afternoon with a nice pint of Harvey’s best, and they were playing Jerry Rafferty - Baker Street. It struck me as being the ultimate autumn Sunday afternoon pub track. I had an almost Proustian response to it.

    It was one of very few tracks that is absolutely perfect in every respect.
    Pretty much the only other one being Sultans of Swing from I think the same year?

    JR was an unhappy character.
    GR!

    Bit of a see u next Tuesday when on the bevvy I believe.
    Gonna see the Fratellis next week talking of edgy central belt music.
    Get your skinny jeans and winklepickers laid out. Haven’t kept up with them lately but liked them when I did.

    Got tickets for Peat and Diesel for the new year for a bit of Lewis and Harris edginess, chuffed as they always seem to sell out in a flash.
    Wilco, polishing up the snip toe Tony Lamas.

    As with Del Amitri they deserved to make it bigger than they did. In theory they are supporting Kaiser Chiefs, to me it's other way round.
    Del Amitri were great. Four or five classic songs

    Their problem was that they arrived in a time of Pop Music Plenty, when there was so much talent exploding everywhere, some really good stuff was sneglected

    That said, Wiki says they sold "6 million albums" which is pretty bloody impressive, so yay Del Amitri


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Amitri
    Founding member of Del Amitri is the cousin of 'Momus' too - quite the musical clan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momus_(musician)
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,671
    Foxy said:

    There will be no American Civil War, and an English one even less likely. A Russian one? Quite possible.

    The reason is geography. There is no geographical border between Republican and Democrat areas, and even in States like Florida or Texas the population has a major Democrat minority, and California a substantive Republican one.

    That is not to say US politics isn't going to be toxic, and full of skullduggery, but war in any realistic sense of the word? Simply no.

    And here, yes there is likely to be social hardship in a way not seen in over a decade, or even possibly since the early Eighties, but actually the difference between Starmarism and Sunakism is a matter of a few percent here and there. With the fall of Truss, the ideological divide ended. The financial speculators call the tune on both parties, and for that matter the SNP. Sovereignty? What sovereignty?

    Why would geography prevent one? Wouldn't it be even bloodier, with fighting reaching every part of the US?

    So not a "war", more massive localised unrest?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    He’s playing really nicely though. He did have the nerve to suggest I needed to learn grammar yesterday, even though his points mainly use lower case…and ellipsis…rather than a full stop or indeed a dash.
    But he won’t be drawn on BA pilots or mRNA vaccines yet, so he’s cool, man.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    BigRich said:

    Martin10 said:

    BREAKING: Facebook parent, $META, plans to begin laying off thousands of employees this week, per WSJ.

    https://twitter.com/unusual_whales/status/1589360786774065153?s=20&t=6XXGHi9XwUtUrgpTAqcepQ

    probably not good for the Californian economy?
    Not exactly news - everyone is cutting back including Microsoft - in the less profitable divisions.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Eabhal said:



    Does anyone know how the National Guard would react? They have a split loyalty.

    NG (and NGR) have a lot of ex active duty transferees from the regular forces so they are culturally well assimilated. They don't cleave too much to a particular state based identity in my very limited experience.

    I think a lot of this largely pointless civil war discussion is being viewed from a British perspective. US military officers are generally much better educated (I'm not saying better before the Little Englanders have a mass anal prolapse) than British ones and progressive political opinions are surprisingly common.

    Every kid at West Point was an academic superstar at their high school. Every kid at Sandhurst was probably not...
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,792
    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:

    There will be no American Civil War, and an English one even less likely. A Russian one? Quite possible.

    The reason is geography. There is no geographical border between Republican and Democrat areas, and even in States like Florida or Texas the population has a major Democrat minority, and California a substantive Republican one.

    That is not to say US politics isn't going to be toxic, and full of skullduggery, but war in any realistic sense of the word? Simply no.

    And here, yes there is likely to be social hardship in a way not seen in over a decade, or even possibly since the early Eighties, but actually the difference between Starmarism and Sunakism is a matter of a few percent here and there. With the fall of Truss, the ideological divide ended. The financial speculators call the tune on both parties, and for that matter the SNP. Sovereignty? What sovereignty?

    Why would geography prevent one? Wouldn't it be even bloodier, with fighting reaching every part of the US?

    So not a "war", more massive localised unrest?
    Or.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyORbG3I5Ys
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Eabhal said:



    Does anyone know how the National Guard would react? They have a split loyalty.

    NG (and NGR) have a lot of ex active duty transferees from the regular forces so they are culturally well assimilated. They don't cleave too much to a particular state based identity in my very limited experience.

    I think a lot of this largely pointless civil war discussion is being viewed from a British perspective. US military officers are generally much better educated (I'm not saying better before the Little Englanders have a mass anal prolapse) than British ones and progressive political opinions are surprisingly common.

    Every kid at West Point was an academic superstar at their high school. Every kid at Sandhurst was probably not...
    How shit were the war winning NLAWs in your "expert" opinion?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    He’s playing really nicely though. He did have the nerve to suggest I needed to learn grammar yesterday, even though his points mainly use lower case…and ellipsis…rather than a full stop or indeed a dash.
    But he won’t be drawn on BA pilots or mRNA vaccines yet, so he’s cool, man.
    As long as he doesn’t use one of these, I’m willing to tolerate him a little longer

    • Heavy lifting
    • Colour me …
    • IANAE/IANAL
    • Feature, not a bug
    • Ad hom
    • This
    • It’s a view
    • North of (to mean more than)
    • As I’ve said passim
    • One of those irregular verbs
    • Late of this parish
    • Nail. Head.
    • Unspoofable



  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Continuing tonight's musical nostalgia theme, Tracy Chapman's first album called Tracy Chapman is mindblowingly good.

    One of my all time favourites recently rediscovered

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DwrHwZyFN7M
    Fantastic.

    and the pathos behind the fragile optimism which you just know is not going to work out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Dura_Ace said:

    Eabhal said:



    Does anyone know how the National Guard would react? They have a split loyalty.

    NG (and NGR) have a lot of ex active duty transferees from the regular forces so they are culturally well assimilated. They don't cleave too much to a particular state based identity in my very limited experience.

    I think a lot of this largely pointless civil war discussion is being viewed from a British perspective. US military officers are generally much better educated (I'm not saying better before the Little Englanders have a mass anal prolapse) than British ones and progressive political opinions are surprisingly common.

    Every kid at West Point was an academic superstar at their high school. Every kid at Sandhurst was probably not...
    How does one get into Sandhurst thesedays? Still a matter of who you know?
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    I spent a brief moment at a pub this afternoon with a nice pint of Harvey’s best, and they were playing Jerry Rafferty - Baker Street. It struck me as being the ultimate autumn Sunday afternoon pub track. I had an almost Proustian response to it.

    It was one of very few tracks that is absolutely perfect in every respect.
    Pretty much the only other one being Sultans of Swing from I think the same year?

    JR was an unhappy character.
    GR!

    Bit of a see u next Tuesday when on the bevvy I believe.
    Gonna see the Fratellis next week talking of edgy central belt music.
    Get your skinny jeans and winklepickers laid out. Haven’t kept up with them lately but liked them when I did.

    Got tickets for Peat and Diesel for the new year for a bit of Lewis and Harris edginess, chuffed as they always seem to sell out in a flash.
    Wilco, polishing up the snip toe Tony Lamas.

    As with Del Amitri they deserved to make it bigger than they did. In theory they are supporting Kaiser Chiefs, to me it's other way round.
    Del Amitri were great. Four or five classic songs

    Their problem was that they arrived in a time of Pop Music Plenty, when there was so much talent exploding everywhere, some really good stuff was sneglected

    That said, Wiki says they sold "6 million albums" which is pretty bloody impressive, so yay Del Amitri


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Amitri
    Be My Downfall at dusk on heading north on an autumn evening commute on a fast country road after a rough day. Sublime.

    No particular personal reasons to speak of here, but nevertheless.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    Hampstead would see off Hartlepool easy. Hobnail boots and vulgar chanting no match for the fortified crepe van.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited November 2022

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    He’s playing really nicely though. He did have the nerve to suggest I needed to learn grammar yesterday, even though his points mainly use lower case…and ellipsis…rather than a full stop or indeed a dash.
    But he won’t be drawn on BA pilots or mRNA vaccines yet, so he’s cool, man.
    Although I note s/he's off on diesel shortages again.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662
    Dura_Ace said:

    Eabhal said:



    Does anyone know how the National Guard would react? They have a split loyalty.

    NG (and NGR) have a lot of ex active duty transferees from the regular forces so they are culturally well assimilated. They don't cleave too much to a particular state based identity in my very limited experience.

    I think a lot of this largely pointless civil war discussion is being viewed from a British perspective. US military officers are generally much better educated (I'm not saying better before the Little Englanders have a mass anal prolapse) than British ones and progressive political opinions are surprisingly common.

    Every kid at West Point was an academic superstar at their high school. Every kid at Sandhurst was probably not...
    National Guard is really a misnomer, as they are really state militias. The national US Army doesn't have the same archaic regimental system as here, so loyalty to the organisation itself is much stronger.

    We saw though on Jan 6th 2021 the closest thing to an uprising*, and we saw how the official forces aligned themselves with government rather than party. It would be the same again.

    *in no other developed country could we imagine the man who attempted a coup getting a party nomination for leader.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Continuing tonight's musical nostalgia theme, Tracy Chapman's first album called Tracy Chapman is mindblowingly good.

    One of my all time favourites recently rediscovered

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DwrHwZyFN7M
    Fantastic.

    and the pathos behind the fragile optimism which you just know is not going to work out.
    Fast Car is one of the greatest songs ever written

    And yet it took my marriage to my 30-years-younger wife for her to point out that "actually, it ends really sadly"

    I listened to it and loved it for decades without noticing this. I always thought it told a bittersweet story of Finally Escaping, but leaving people behind. Ooops

    Perhaps that is a marker of a fabulous song. Or I am just an idiot
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    I’d probably rate Subcity above Fast Car.

    But it’s a close run thing.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    edited November 2022

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    One who knows how an homogeneous white working class feels, too.
    By coincidence.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    edited November 2022

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    He’s playing really nicely though. He did have the nerve to suggest I needed to learn grammar yesterday, even though his points mainly use lower case…and ellipsis…rather than a full stop or indeed a dash.
    But he won’t be drawn on BA pilots or mRNA vaccines yet, so he’s cool, man.
    As long as he doesn’t use one of these, I’m willing to tolerate him a little longer

    • Heavy lifting
    • Colour me …
    • IANAE/IANAL
    • Feature, not a bug
    • Ad hom
    • This
    • It’s a view
    • North of (to mean more than)
    • As I’ve said passim
    • One of those irregular verbs
    • Late of this parish
    • Nail. Head.
    • Unspoofable
    This.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    edited November 2022
    Joan Armatrading's Love and Affection is up there with Fast Car. And it has similarities

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKKtvAvak

    What a superb song

    "I am not in love, but I am open to persuasion"
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    kle4 said:

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    He’s playing really nicely though. He did have the nerve to suggest I needed to learn grammar yesterday, even though his points mainly use lower case…and ellipsis…rather than a full stop or indeed a dash.
    But he won’t be drawn on BA pilots or mRNA vaccines yet, so he’s cool, man.
    As long as he doesn’t use one of these, I’m willing to tolerate him a little longer

    • Heavy lifting
    • Colour me …
    • IANAE/IANAL
    • Feature, not a bug
    • Ad hom
    • This
    • It’s a view
    • North of (to mean more than)
    • As I’ve said passim
    • One of those irregular verbs
    • Late of this parish
    • Nail. Head.
    • Unspoofable
    • Fixed that for you

    Fixed that for you
    ….

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    He’s playing really nicely though. He did have the nerve to suggest I needed to learn grammar yesterday, even though his points mainly use lower case…and ellipsis…rather than a full stop or indeed a dash.
    But he won’t be drawn on BA pilots or mRNA vaccines yet, so he’s cool, man.
    As long as he doesn’t use one of these, I’m willing to tolerate him a little longer

    • Heavy lifting
    • Colour me …
    • IANAE/IANAL
    • Feature, not a bug
    • Ad hom
    • This
    • It’s a view
    • North of (to mean more than)
    • As I’ve said passim
    • One of those irregular verbs
    • Late of this parish
    • Nail. Head.
    • Unspoofable
    This.
    + 1.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160
    Martin10 said:

    Gov Desantis declares war on Soros
    "You're destroying America so im going to destroy you"

    https://twitter.com/mrcoonie/status/1589012190862135296?s=20&t=6XXGHi9XwUtUrgpTAqcepQ

    If i were Soros i would be getting concerned

    That link is about Council Tax.

    And Mr Soros is worth many billions. And doesn't live in Florida.

    What is Mr DeSantis going to do to him: refuse him access to Disneyworld?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    rcs1000 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Gov Desantis declares war on Soros
    "You're destroying America so im going to destroy you"

    https://twitter.com/mrcoonie/status/1589012190862135296?s=20&t=6XXGHi9XwUtUrgpTAqcepQ

    If i were Soros i would be getting concerned

    That link is about Council Tax.

    And Mr Soros is worth many billions. And doesn't live in Florida.

    What is Mr DeSantis going to do to him: refuse him access to Disneyworld?
    Hasn't DeSantis already declared war on Disneyworld as well?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662
    edited November 2022

    I’d probably rate Subcity above Fast Car.

    But it’s a close run thing.

    Or this one:

    https://youtu.be/CoNtYC_XDC8

    Though the music recommendations on this thread are like Smooth FM on Valium. Not my cup of tea at all.

    Music does bring back memories like Proust and his Madelaine, they are however very specific to individual, time and place.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    ydoethur said:

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    He’s playing really nicely though. He did have the nerve to suggest I needed to learn grammar yesterday, even though his points mainly use lower case…and ellipsis…rather than a full stop or indeed a dash.
    But he won’t be drawn on BA pilots or mRNA vaccines yet, so he’s cool, man.
    Although I note s/he's off on diesel shortages again.
    If we just keep a pet Russian troll on here it should at least save us being bombarded by new ones all the time.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    edited November 2022
    I wonder which side my TA will be on in the impending civil war?
    One of seven kids raised by a single parent in Blyth and without a single GCSE.
    Who gave up her evening to make rainbow pronoun badges with her truck driver boyfriend for the staff?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    .

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    He’s playing really nicely though. He did have the nerve to suggest I needed to learn grammar yesterday, even though his points mainly use lower case…and ellipsis…rather than a full stop or indeed a dash.
    But he won’t be drawn on BA pilots or mRNA vaccines yet, so he’s cool, man.
    As long as he doesn’t use one of these, I’m willing to tolerate him a little longer

    • Heavy lifting
    • Colour me …
    • IANAE/IANAL
    • Feature, not a bug
    • Ad hom
    • This
    • It’s a view
    • North of (to mean more than)
    • As I’ve said passim
    • One of those irregular verbs
    • Late of this parish
    • Nail. Head.
    • Unspoofable
    This.
    We've clearly got north of one troll on here.
  • Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Continuing tonight's musical nostalgia theme, Tracy Chapman's first album called Tracy Chapman is mindblowingly good.

    One of my all time favourites recently rediscovered

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DwrHwZyFN7M
    Fantastic.

    and the pathos behind the fragile optimism which you just know is not going to work out.
    Fast Car is one of the greatest songs ever written

    And yet it took my marriage to my 30-years-younger wife for her to point out that "actually, it ends really sadly"

    I listened to it and loved it for decades without noticing this. I always thought it told a bittersweet story of Finally Escaping, but leaving people behind. Ooops

    Perhaps that is a marker of a fabulous song. Or I am just an idiot
    The Pavorotti/Tracy Chapman version of Baby can I hold you tonight at the end of House oF Gucci (available on Amazon prime video) is my favorite at the moment.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited November 2022
    Leon said:

    Joan Armatrading's Love and Affection is up there with Fast Car. And it has similarities

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKKtvAvak

    What a superb song

    "I am not in love, but I am open to persuasion"

    Gorgrous song, gorgeous singer.
    For bittersweet i rather like Up the Junction and Labelled with Love. In different ways just express the bleakness and shittiness of life.

    He became drinker and she became mother, she knew that one day she'd be one or the other
  • TimS said:

    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not sure 9/11 really makes the cut. Like saving private Ryan and pearl harbor the cinematic centrepiece is so mind-blowing it obscures a pretty ordinary narrative.

    I think there's an analogy with Pearl Harbor - Americans liked to think they were somehow invulnerable but 9/11 dispelled that with a vengeance. For London, 7/7 was awful but we'd lived with terror for nearly 40 years though not suicide bombers which was the new dimension.

    It impacted American policy directly not only through the eventual Iraq invasion in 2003 and the cover the Bin Laden attacks but also the money successive Republican legislatures poured into defence (and the profits made by defence contractors) came home to roost when the Democrats won the House in 2006 and the extent of the economic exposure became clear.

    I genuinely think there was a brief period of euphoria (remember Fukayama) in the early 90s where it was believed we now lived in a unipolar world where the triumph of western liberal democracy was inevitable. The reality of the conflicts which had in some ways been masked by Soviet imperialism was then uncovered as Moscow withdrew from Europe and Africa.

    Fukayama lol, that End of History stuff was always hubristic nonsense

    Worrying that when I start typing his name phone now autocorrects to fuck.
    Read the book. There's nothing hubristic about it. 30 years later has anyone come up with a compelling alternative to liberal democracy? No.
    Liberal democracy is Monty Python's black knight. You can be as compelled by it as you like, but it has given way to plutocratic demagoguery here, it is history in the US when Trump gets back in, India is under a racist tyrant and it doesn't seem to have been very good at displacing communism anywhere since 1989. Where has it triumphed?

    Ditto "liberal capitalism" but more so. It has been shown since Fukuyama to be humanity's worst mistake. Either it destroys the planet via climate change or climate change destroys it. Because Truss was sort of right, enemies Of Growth are a thing and getting progressively thingier, because they have the only position it is rationally possible to have.
    I’d say liberal capitalism is doing a pretty decent job of (finally) mitigating climate change through the twin forces of the market and democratic pressure.
    We haven't mitigated it yet, have we? Bookmark this conv for 10 years time.

    China is way ahead of most of the democratic world both on decarbonising itself and in design mfr and export of renewables kit, so not a huge win for liberalism there.
    Whether through eugenic mating or cosmetic surgery, China is also producing more HOT TEEN GIRLS

    The West is totally finished
    and a big factor in male motivation to work is hot young women....if you are a young man surrounded by obese women i think you are much less likely to work hard than if you are surrounded by hot young women....it is human nature in action.....
    So let’s compare the performance of the Russian army vs, say, the US one?
    Yes but that is because russia is technologically inferior to the usa...if technology was equal i think the russians would win as russians are more willing to die
    Willingness to die is an overrated attribute. It means the whole military apparatus isn’t set up to preserve life and health, and ultimately that means hanging people out to dry.

    You continue your country’s death wish but the future of warfare is zero-casualty conflict.
    Warfare is essentially the use of force to achieve political objectives.

    Bravery and calculated risk-tasking is necessary to achieve that but it's pretty mad to glorify needless sacrifice on your own side for its own sake, and casualties should be both minimised and regretted by any sane commander.
    That’s just bastardising Clausewitz

    “War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means”

    "Wars not make one great!" - Master Yoda.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Foxy said:

    I’d probably rate Subcity above Fast Car.

    But it’s a close run thing.

    Or this one:

    https://youtu.be/CoNtYC_XDC8

    Though the music recommendations on this thread are like Smooth FM on Valium. Not my cup of tea at all.

    Music does bring back memories like Proust and his Madelaine, they are however very specific to individual, time and place.
    These are not recommendations. We are very specifically talking about Timelessly Classic and Perfect Pop Songs. So of course the list will sound like Smooth FM

    I've no doubt you would get extraordinarily diverse suggestions if you asked for mad new music to listen to. PB is good at that. I have found all kinds of music from recommendations on here, from Lebanese rock to Colombian swing

    Back down, mister suburban, middlebrow, Leicester Doctor "status anxiety" @Foxy
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Leon said:

    Joan Armatrading's Love and Affection is up there with Fast Car. And it has similarities

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKKtvAvak

    What a superb song

    "I am not in love, but I am open to persuasion"

    She’s great.
    Though I’m surprised you didn’t pick “Me Myself I”…
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    ydoethur said:

    .

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    He’s playing really nicely though. He did have the nerve to suggest I needed to learn grammar yesterday, even though his points mainly use lower case…and ellipsis…rather than a full stop or indeed a dash.
    But he won’t be drawn on BA pilots or mRNA vaccines yet, so he’s cool, man.
    As long as he doesn’t use one of these, I’m willing to tolerate him a little longer

    • Heavy lifting
    • Colour me …
    • IANAE/IANAL
    • Feature, not a bug
    • Ad hom
    • This
    • It’s a view
    • North of (to mean more than)
    • As I’ve said passim
    • One of those irregular verbs
    • Late of this parish
    • Nail. Head.
    • Unspoofable
    This.
    We've clearly got north of one troll on here.
    Not me, mine wasn't on the list!
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Leon said:

    Joan Armatrading's Love and Affection is up there with Fast Car. And it has similarities

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKKtvAvak

    What a superb song

    "I am not in love, but I am open to persuasion"

    Gorgrous song, gorgeous singer.
    For bittersweet i rather like Up the Junction and Labelled with Love. In different ways just express the bleakness and shittiness of life.

    He became drinker and she became mother, she knew that one day she'd be one or the other
    True story: 15 years ago I was at the afterparty at Belladrum and talking to a bloke was playing a guitar and singing various standards and then said I'll do one of my own now. And did Up The Junction.

    Pub quiz q: what do Up The Junction and Virginia Plain have in common?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Joan Armatrading's Love and Affection is up there with Fast Car. And it has similarities

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKKtvAvak

    What a superb song

    "I am not in love, but I am open to persuasion"

    Gorgrous song, gorgeous singer.
    For bittersweet i rather like Up the Junction and Labelled with Love. In different ways just express the bleakness and shittiness of life.

    He became drinker and she became mother, she knew that one day she'd be one or the other
    I got a job with Stanley
    He said I'd come in handy
    And started me on Monday
    So I had a bath on Sunday
    I worked eleven hours
    And bought the girl some flowers
    She said she'd seen a doctor
    And nothing now could stop her


    That's close to lyrical perfection, in its depiction of working class London life, with added pregnancy
    The way that almost all the rhymes are slightly off is genius, too.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Anyone a fan of Steve Winwood?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone a fan of Steve Winwood?

    I know 3 songs by him and love all of them. So should prob explore further.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    NEWS: The first ‘24 domino falls

    Tom Cotton won’t run for POTUS. He’s been calling major donors and supporters over the last few days informing them of his decision, citing family reasons

    He’s the first potential candidate to make his plans known

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/06/tom-cotton-passes-on-2024-presidential-run-00065334
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    TimS said:

    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    stodge said:

    Ishmael_Z said:


    Not sure 9/11 really makes the cut. Like saving private Ryan and pearl harbor the cinematic centrepiece is so mind-blowing it obscures a pretty ordinary narrative.

    I think there's an analogy with Pearl Harbor - Americans liked to think they were somehow invulnerable but 9/11 dispelled that with a vengeance. For London, 7/7 was awful but we'd lived with terror for nearly 40 years though not suicide bombers which was the new dimension.

    It impacted American policy directly not only through the eventual Iraq invasion in 2003 and the cover the Bin Laden attacks but also the money successive Republican legislatures poured into defence (and the profits made by defence contractors) came home to roost when the Democrats won the House in 2006 and the extent of the economic exposure became clear.

    I genuinely think there was a brief period of euphoria (remember Fukayama) in the early 90s where it was believed we now lived in a unipolar world where the triumph of western liberal democracy was inevitable. The reality of the conflicts which had in some ways been masked by Soviet imperialism was then uncovered as Moscow withdrew from Europe and Africa.

    Fukayama lol, that End of History stuff was always hubristic nonsense

    Worrying that when I start typing his name phone now autocorrects to fuck.
    Read the book. There's nothing hubristic about it. 30 years later has anyone come up with a compelling alternative to liberal democracy? No.
    Liberal democracy is Monty Python's black knight. You can be as compelled by it as you like, but it has given way to plutocratic demagoguery here, it is history in the US when Trump gets back in, India is under a racist tyrant and it doesn't seem to have been very good at displacing communism anywhere since 1989. Where has it triumphed?

    Ditto "liberal capitalism" but more so. It has been shown since Fukuyama to be humanity's worst mistake. Either it destroys the planet via climate change or climate change destroys it. Because Truss was sort of right, enemies Of Growth are a thing and getting progressively thingier, because they have the only position it is rationally possible to have.
    I’d say liberal capitalism is doing a pretty decent job of (finally) mitigating climate change through the twin forces of the market and democratic pressure.
    We haven't mitigated it yet, have we? Bookmark this conv for 10 years time.

    China is way ahead of most of the democratic world both on decarbonising itself and in design mfr and export of renewables kit, so not a huge win for liberalism there.
    Whether through eugenic mating or cosmetic surgery, China is also producing more HOT TEEN GIRLS

    The West is totally finished
    and a big factor in male motivation to work is hot young women....if you are a young man surrounded by obese women i think you are much less likely to work hard than if you are surrounded by hot young women....it is human nature in action.....
    So let’s compare the performance of the Russian army vs, say, the US one?
    Yes but that is because russia is technologically inferior to the usa...if technology was equal i think the russians would win as russians are more willing to die
    Willingness to die is an overrated attribute. It means the whole military apparatus isn’t set up to preserve life and health, and ultimately that means hanging people out to dry.

    You continue your country’s death wish but the future of warfare is zero-casualty conflict.
    Warfare is essentially the use of force to achieve political objectives.

    Bravery and calculated risk-tasking is necessary to achieve that but it's pretty mad to glorify needless sacrifice on your own side for its own sake, and casualties should be both minimised and regretted by any sane commander.
    That’s just bastardising Clausewitz

    “War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means”

    "Wars not make one great!" - Master Yoda.
    You sent greetings from Liverpool and I took the next train
    Passed by people putting flowers on graves, and we got delayed
    When I arrived, you had vanished like steam and left me in a diesel day
    So I walked around and spent ten pounds in amusement arcades.

    To uinte PB's dodgy pop muzak and railway interests.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    .

    I note we have yet another Russian troll on the threads. It’s almost a daily occurrence nowadays

    He’s playing really nicely though. He did have the nerve to suggest I needed to learn grammar yesterday, even though his points mainly use lower case…and ellipsis…rather than a full stop or indeed a dash.
    But he won’t be drawn on BA pilots or mRNA vaccines yet, so he’s cool, man.
    As long as he doesn’t use one of these, I’m willing to tolerate him a little longer

    • Heavy lifting
    • Colour me …
    • IANAE/IANAL
    • Feature, not a bug
    • Ad hom
    • This
    • It’s a view
    • North of (to mean more than)
    • As I’ve said passim
    • One of those irregular verbs
    • Late of this parish
    • Nail. Head.
    • Unspoofable
    This.
    We've clearly got north of one troll on here.
    Not me, mine wasn't on the list!
    It's a view...
  • Martin10Martin10 Posts: 142
    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone a fan of Steve Winwood?

    Valerie Valerie
  • TresTres Posts: 2,700
    Leon said:

    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    I honestly think you're living in a fantasy world of your own.
    Might seem farfetched but imagine coverage of an american civil war on our tv screens every night...we know how humans have a herd mentality
    Don't be dumb. No one looks at news footage of another country tearing itself apart and thinks 'oh, maybe we should do that too'.

    Also, re: "woke leftists vs the white working class". No one gives a shit about 'woke' beyond a few right-wing nut jobs (some of whom are on here). People care about not being able to pay their fuel bills, afford the rent/mortgage, do their weekly shop, get a doctors appointment if they need one. They worry about climate change, about their jobs, their kids getting a decent education, their older relatives having proper social care, whether an ambulance would turn up if they need one.

    Stuff like that. Woke, not so much.

    You are delusionally wrong. Woke is so advanced in America: and many people care

    People like you reckon it is the same as a Daily Mail scare story from the 90s. You think this is "political correctness gone mad"

    That's as bad an error as identifying Covid as "just another flu"
    wrong, it's the red scare for the 21st century.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone a fan of Steve Winwood?

    Me

    His song While You See A Chance, from Arc of a Diver, is my go-to song when I want to feel really really good about the life ahead. Triumphant and happy. Eager, thankful and glad

    Specifically, it is the first song I listened to, in my Holborn flat in Red Lion Square, after I woke up after an endless party, which ensued amongst friends and family, following my acquittal of a rape charge at the Old Bailey, which had hung over my head for a year, with the threat of many years in jail

    I woke up a totally free man, in my shared flat, covered in stains and reeking of champagne and with multiple memories blurred, and I played this song, and then I thought YAYYYYY and I went out there, a free man. Got laid that weekend, if I recall correctly

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp-kCenQ9HE
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Joan Armatrading's Love and Affection is up there with Fast Car. And it has similarities

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKKtvAvak

    What a superb song

    "I am not in love, but I am open to persuasion"

    Gorgrous song, gorgeous singer.
    For bittersweet i rather like Up the Junction and Labelled with Love. In different ways just express the bleakness and shittiness of life.

    He became drinker and she became mother, she knew that one day she'd be one or the other
    I got a job with Stanley
    He said I'd come in handy
    And started me on Monday
    So I had a bath on Sunday
    I worked eleven hours
    And bought the girl some flowers
    She said she'd seen a doctor
    And nothing now could stop her


    That's close to lyrical perfection, in its depiction of working class London life, with added pregnancy
    The first 21 notes all downhill or the same as the previous note. Whether intentional due to the lyrics or not, it's an arresting start.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited November 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Joan Armatrading's Love and Affection is up there with Fast Car. And it has similarities

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKKtvAvak

    What a superb song

    "I am not in love, but I am open to persuasion"

    Gorgrous song, gorgeous singer.
    For bittersweet i rather like Up the Junction and Labelled with Love. In different ways just express the bleakness and shittiness of life.

    He became drinker and she became mother, she knew that one day she'd be one or the other
    I got a job with Stanley
    He said I'd come in handy
    And started me on Monday
    So I had a bath on Sunday
    I worked eleven hours
    And bought the girl some flowers
    She said she'd seen a doctor
    And nothing now could stop her


    That's close to lyrical perfection, in its depiction of working class London life, with added pregnancy
    Its fucking magic.
    Carter USM have some gold too, or a bit more up to date, Sheila by Jamie T is a classic. Plus Bob Hoskins is in the video

    When I fall, no one catch me
    Alone lonely, I'll overdose slowly
    Get scared, I'll scream and shout
    But you know it won't matter she'll be passing out

    I say, "Giggidibiggidi up" just another day
    Another sad story, that's tragedy
    Paramedic announced death at 10:30
    Rip it up, kick it to spit up the views

  • TresTres Posts: 2,700
    edited November 2022
    The thread needs more Northern Boys
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLLQFLXz6VE
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Joan Armatrading's Love and Affection is up there with Fast Car. And it has similarities

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWFKKtvAvak

    What a superb song

    "I am not in love, but I am open to persuasion"

    Gorgrous song, gorgeous singer.
    For bittersweet i rather like Up the Junction and Labelled with Love. In different ways just express the bleakness and shittiness of life.

    He became drinker and she became mother, she knew that one day she'd be one or the other
    I got a job with Stanley
    He said I'd come in handy
    And started me on Monday
    So I had a bath on Sunday
    I worked eleven hours
    And bought the girl some flowers
    She said she'd seen a doctor
    And nothing now could stop her


    That's close to lyrical perfection, in its depiction of working class London life, with added pregnancy
    Its fucking magic.
    Carter USM have some gold too, or a bit more up to date, Shiela by Jamie T is a classic. Plus Bob Hoskins is in the video

    When I fall, no one catch me
    Alone lonely, I'll overdose slowly
    Get scared, I'll scream and shout
    But you know it won't matter she'll be passing out

    I say, "Giggidibiggidi up" just another day
    Another sad story, that's tragedy
    Paramedic announced death at 10:30
    Rip it up, kick it to spit up the views

    Knowing what USM means is always a bonus. As is

    Now Sheriff Fatman started out in business
    As a granny farmer
    He was infamous for fifteen minutes
    And he appeared on Panorama
    Then he somehow got himself on board
    The Starship Enterprise Allowance Scheme
    With a Prince of Wales award
    For pushing Valium and amphetamines

    Moving up on second base
    Behind Nicholas Van Wotsisface
    At six foot six and a hundred tons
    The undisputed king of the slums
    With more aliases than Klaus Barbie
    The master butcher of Leigh-on-Sea
    Just about to take the stage
    The one and only
    Hold the front page!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Continuing tonight's musical nostalgia theme, Tracy Chapman's first album called Tracy Chapman is mindblowingly good.

    Behind the wall is still the best ever pop depiction of domestic abuse, although the Police’s every breath you take is close.

    “Last night I heard the screaming
    Then a silence that chilled my soul”
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    Steve Winwood is the sort of guy who, when he dies, will have millions going 'I didn't know he did all that!"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Scott_xP said:

    NEWS: The first ‘24 domino falls

    Tom Cotton won’t run for POTUS. He’s been calling major donors and supporters over the last few days informing them of his decision, citing family reasons

    He’s the first potential candidate to make his plans known

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/06/tom-cotton-passes-on-2024-presidential-run-00065334

    Trump below evens for the nomination.
    I laid him too early; have laid a bit more.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    dixiedean said:

    Steve Winwood is the sort of guy who, when he dies, will have millions going 'I didn't know he did all that!"

    Indeed he is. A remarkable career
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662
    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Continuing tonight's musical nostalgia theme, Tracy Chapman's first album called Tracy Chapman is mindblowingly good.

    Behind the wall is still the best ever pop depiction of domestic abuse, although the Police’s every breath you take is close.

    “Last night I heard the screaming
    Then a silence that chilled my soul”
    Delialah by Tom Jones is interesting, not least for taking the abusers side.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    I need to find out what the lyrics to Drop The Pilot actually mean. I know the words but don't have a clue what it's all about.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    An alternate view on the whole Russian pro patria mori thing.

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1589359859283406848
    That's a major misunderstanding:

    1. Most Russian are not willing to sacrifice *themselves* in a war
    2. But they're more than willing to sacrifice each other

    For example:

    Most youngsters are not willing to fight. But their grandparents are willing to sacrifice the youngsters
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    I honestly think you're living in a fantasy world of your own.
    Might seem farfetched but imagine coverage of an american civil war on our tv screens every night...we know how humans have a herd mentality
    Don't be dumb. No one looks at news footage of another country tearing itself apart and thinks 'oh, maybe we should do that too'.

    Also, re: "woke leftists vs the white working class". No one gives a shit about 'woke' beyond a few right-wing nut jobs (some of whom are on here). People care about not being able to pay their fuel bills, afford the rent/mortgage, do their weekly shop, get a doctors appointment if they need one. They worry about climate change, about their jobs, their kids getting a decent education, their older relatives having proper social care, whether an ambulance would turn up if they need one.

    Stuff like that. Woke, not so much.

    You are delusionally wrong. Woke is so advanced in America: and many people care

    People like you reckon it is the same as a Daily Mail scare story from the 90s. You think this is "political correctness gone mad"

    That's as bad an error as identifying Covid as "just another flu"
    wrong, it's the red scare for the 21st century.
    So it's to the 21st century what communism was to the 20th century?
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,134
    Ishmael_Z said:

    You sent greetings from Liverpool and I took the next train
    Passed by people putting flowers on graves, and we got delayed
    When I arrived, you had vanished like steam and left me in a diesel day
    So I walked around and spent ten pounds in amusement arcades.

    To uinte PB's dodgy pop muzak and railway interests.

    For 'trains in pop lyrics' I've always liked the line "Platform ticket, restless diesels, goodbye windows" from _White Room_...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Continuing tonight's musical nostalgia theme, Tracy Chapman's first album called Tracy Chapman is mindblowingly good.

    Behind the wall is still the best ever pop depiction of domestic abuse, although the Police’s every breath you take is close.

    “Last night I heard the screaming
    Then a silence that chilled my soul”
    See also. My name is Luca. Suzanne Vega.


    Incidentally. A superb pop star name. Like Jimi Hendrix and Suzi Quattro. All their real names.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Scott_xP said:

    NEWS: The first ‘24 domino falls

    Tom Cotton won’t run for POTUS. He’s been calling major donors and supporters over the last few days informing them of his decision, citing family reasons

    He’s the first potential candidate to make his plans known

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/06/tom-cotton-passes-on-2024-presidential-run-00065334


    Cotton has attributed his decision to family concerns, saying that a national campaign would take him away from his two young sons, who are seven and five years old


    Sure Tom, we believe you.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Meanwhile in Russia: a pundit argues that younger men should be trained and sent into combat, so there are no widows or children to pay when they get killed. Another argument is that Russians over 40 are too worn out by alcohol consumption to run, jump or be any good in combat.
    https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1589035403105173504
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,662

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Martin10 said:

    Martin10 said:

    Leon said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Pagan2 said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Crowd shouting lock her up about Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally . The Maga Trump Cult are despicable hate filled scum.

    I couldn’t stomach being in the same room as them .

    Trouble is the Trumpites know you hate them, and they think you started all this, so there's yer civil war, right there
    In a civil war of the young and fit against the old and obese, only one side will win.
    The side carrying bigger guns.

    There won't be a civil war because the army and security services are not deserting and joining 'the other side'. There could be civil unrest. If there is a right wing secessionist movement it would need significant parts of the army and airforce to come over to its side. I find that unlikely.
    Total bollocks sorry, I hear this a lot what does the right to bear arms matter when the us military has all these toys.

    Well the us military had all the best toys in vietnam whereas the vietnamese had what comes under the heading right to bear arms....the us lost

    ditto afghanistan.

    Which is even before the fact that in a civil war half the us military is likely to defect taking their toys with them
    Vietcong were happy to live in tunnels on half a bowl of rice a week. MAGGOTS less so. Helicopter gunships when they go on a Walmart run, and BOOM.
    The vietcong were already used to that style of living largely it is irrelevant.

    Conventional armies pitted against conventional armies the best equipped have an advantage.

    Conventional army against a guerilla force that blends into the population and has the clandestine support of many....they dont do so good
    I just don't think MAGA phatbois are going to melt into the jungle quite like Charlie did. Cut off their social security, foreclose on their trucks and their houses, track their mobiles.
    If there is an American Civil War, it would be close. Closer than the last one

    And I significantly doubt the loyalty of the US Military to Woke Democrats

    In the last Civil War, the losing side was emotionally crippled by knowing - deep down - that they were morally in the wrong. And their opponents felt the opposite

    Not the case here
    I honestly think an american civil war would lead to a british civil war along similar lines...woke leftists vs the white working class...
    I honestly think you're living in a fantasy world of your own.
    Might seem farfetched but imagine coverage of an american civil war on our tv screens every night...we know how humans have a herd mentality
    Don't be dumb. No one looks at news footage of another country tearing itself apart and thinks 'oh, maybe we should do that too'.

    Also, re: "woke leftists vs the white working class". No one gives a shit about 'woke' beyond a few right-wing nut jobs (some of whom are on here). People care about not being able to pay their fuel bills, afford the rent/mortgage, do their weekly shop, get a doctors appointment if they need one. They worry about climate change, about their jobs, their kids getting a decent education, their older relatives having proper social care, whether an ambulance would turn up if they need one.

    Stuff like that. Woke, not so much.

    You are delusionally wrong. Woke is so advanced in America: and many people care

    People like you reckon it is the same as a Daily Mail scare story from the 90s. You think this is "political correctness gone mad"

    That's as bad an error as identifying Covid as "just another flu"
    wrong, it's the red scare for the 21st century.
    So it's to the 21st century what communism was to the 20th century?
    More what Mccarthyism was in the 20th Century, on both sides.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    TimS said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Continuing tonight's musical nostalgia theme, Tracy Chapman's first album called Tracy Chapman is mindblowingly good.

    Behind the wall is still the best ever pop depiction of domestic abuse, although the Police’s every breath you take is close.

    “Last night I heard the screaming
    Then a silence that chilled my soul”
    Suzanne Vegas Luka is pretty good for that, Poppy but to the point

    Yes I think I'm okay
    I walked into the door again
    If you ask that's what I'll say
    And it's not your business anyway
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Foxy said:

    I’d probably rate Subcity above Fast Car.

    But it’s a close run thing.

    Or this one:

    https://youtu.be/CoNtYC_XDC8

    Though the music recommendations on this thread are like Smooth FM on Valium. Not my cup of tea at all.

    Music does bring back memories like Proust and his Madelaine, they are however very specific to individual, time and place.


    I know what you mean. I did end up recommending a load of nineties tech house to a very intoxicated @casinoroyale once, but generally tastes on here are fairly MOR (which is fine, if you are in the mood for it)
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    Nigelb said:

    An alternate view on the whole Russian pro patria mori thing.

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1589359859283406848
    That's a major misunderstanding:

    1. Most Russian are not willing to sacrifice *themselves* in a war
    2. But they're more than willing to sacrifice each other

    For example:

    Most youngsters are not willing to fight. But their grandparents are willing to sacrifice the youngsters

    Kamil is one of the great revelations of the war. I note he’s derided by a number of fellow historians, but that’s because he has the chutzpah to say things that aren’t Russian studies orthodoxy.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Andy_JS said:

    I need to find out what the lyrics to Drop The Pilot actually mean. I know the words but don't have a clue what it's all about.

    Don't marry her, Fuck me, pretty much covers it.
This discussion has been closed.