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Let’s talk about Brexit – politicalbetting.com

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  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    I called this.

    It is sad as it is predictable.
    It’s disgusting.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    Im talking about the british people...people are saying they have lost their country
    That happened 2000 years ago. We've all been mongrels since then, thank God. The ignorance of some racists ...
  • TresTres Posts: 2,700

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Imagine if the first black Chancellor and the first Hindu PM had been Labour.

    Well, we have to imagine, in the same way we have to imagine Labour's first female PM.

    This lashing out is partly at the embarrassment of Labour being almost half a century behind the Tories on diversity. The Tories!! Damn, that must hurt.
    Tories elect figureheads, Labour pass legislation to give rights to minorities. I know which one is more important.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.


    Lefties keep talking about a "honeymoon period" which is just a sign they aren't paying attention. This is not a honeymoon period.

    Isn’t it? Isn’t a new leader bounce a proven historical precedence?

    Would you like to explain what you mean?
    It's not remotely a honeymoon period - that requires there to be positive coverage. "Relief that Truss has gone" is not positive coverage.

    Sunak has taken over in an unprecedented position of shittiness. Suggesting he's failing because he hasn't bounced to 35% overnight shows a lack of understanding of the circumstances.
    So instead of a honeymoon bounce, you see Rishi Sunak slowly dragging the Tories back to towards 35% over the coming two years till the election?
    The electorate is standing aloof, sucking air through teeth.

    The remain to be convinced that the Tories have now got their shit together. That will take a goodly while. But it is not impossible, especially when compared to the offer (and the Front Bench) from Labour.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.


    Lefties keep talking about a "honeymoon period" which is just a sign they aren't paying attention. This is not a honeymoon period.

    Isn’t it? Isn’t a new leader bounce a proven historical precedence?

    Would you like to explain what you mean?
    It's not remotely a honeymoon period - that requires there to be positive coverage. "Relief that Truss has gone" is not positive coverage.

    Sunak has taken over in an unprecedented position of shittiness. Suggesting he's failing because he hasn't bounced to 35% overnight shows a lack of understanding of the circumstances.
    So instead of a honeymoon bounce, you see Rishi Sunak slowly dragging the Tories back to towards 35% over the coming two years till the election?
    Over the first month or two you'll see the numbers prepared to give him and his government a chance, numbers that may begin to peel off as events and the economy does its doings. Thereafter its events, economic stats, swingback, nurse clinging, drive for change etc.
  • Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Three points:

    (1) We are not rejoining
    (2) We are not rejoining
    (3) It is possible we will have a closer relationship with the EU in future
    (3a) We are not rejoining

    It's about learning to live with your mistake, or in the case of half of us,learning to live with other people's mistake. Once you have eliminated your best option you start rejecting your most damaging alternatives.

    So Britain's destiny is Vassal State, I believe.. It takes a long time for people to accept that.
    It will never be "vassal state" because Britain's raw geopolitical power is equal to or surpasses the top two EU members on their level, and that will tell regardless of the formal treaty relationships that have been established.

    Were we an Ireland, Belgium or Denmark I'd agree with you.
    LOL, Mr Jingo personified
    I thought I might have spotted Casino in Tesco the other day.


    That's absolutely ridiculous.

    I wouldn't be seen dead in Tesco.
    Imagine trying to tell you apart from a Labour MP.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence/ian-murray-union-flag-jacket-photo-result-few-ciders-glastonbury-1375948
    No self respecting red Tory would be seen dead in a Tesco either, Morningside Waitrose every time for Mr Murray. Besides, there he can glad hand all the Tories whose votes he wants.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    One thing that makes me raise my eyebrows at each of the "LABLEAK!" revelations is the way that so many things that were "dispositive" or "smoking guns" turned out not to be anything of the sort.

    "The Furin Cleavage Site is unique!" ... except it seems now that a quarter to a third of coronaviruses have FCS
    "We've found the fingerprints of genetic tampering!" ... except it turns out that it was trying to cherrypick until an apparent sequence was found, and that the "fingerprints" in question would not have existed if people had followed the "Golden Gate" method they described.
    And now "The Republican Senate minority report says so!" ... which seems to me to be the weakest of the three "killer" ones to date.

    My instinct was "accidental lab leak" to begin with, but the molecular epidemiology report (with two separate spillover events separated by weeks) linked with the conclusive establishment that the wet market was the epicentre make it look considerably less plausible.

    Because you'd need two separate accidents, which would need for two separate infectees who went nowhere else in Wuhan other than the wet market both separate times (otherwise one or more of the many dozens of more likely superspreader sites would have been a second, third, fourth epicentre).

    There's a mindset that finds the idea of a lab leak less alarming. That implies that people (even if they're bad people) are in control of the situation. And provided the right people are in charge, all will be well. That we have the potential for sovereignty over the situation, so to speak.

    The idea that something dreadful like this can just happen, due to a combination of bad luck, stupidity and a bit of greed, that's a lot scarier in many ways. Because it can't be stopped, and mitigations depend on us all being less stupid and less greedy.
    The "Find someone to blame" mindset.

    Yeah. I'd been reading reports on potential pandemics years ago, and they concluded we'd get more and more zoonotic spillover events over time as various reservoir species get pushed out of their niches and humans push in to their territories.

    They've been expecting a big zoonotic spillover pandemic for a generation now.
    Happening already, on a small scale, of course, with Lyme disease in the States (expansion of suburbs into secondary forest IIRC). Not sure of reasons in the UK.
  • glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Those saying that we will never rejoin or that it's not going to happen are, basically, projecting out of their fear that it might actually happen.

    It's called DENIAL.

    It might happen. I'm not stating that it will because no one can say for certain either way. But in terms of reasons why we might rejoin, and opinion polling, currently favour something better than Evens.

    That's called being objective.

    Have a nice weekend.

    xx

    If you don't agree with me you're in denial. What a rubbish argument.


    The main reason to think we aren't rejoining is that when people are actually asked what they do want they aren't clamouring for the EU. That only a third of the electorate want to be in the single market, nevermind the full EU, is pretty damning considering the headline polling. That suggests that even getting the UK back into the EEA would be a tall order. Which is a shame as that position would likely satisfy the most people.

    Broadly the public seem to want a closer relationship with Europe, just one that doesn't involve the single market, free movement, the ECJ, etc. I don't what they expect the politicians to do about this "move closer but don't join anything" idea.
    Trouble is that it involves getting beyond "there's a brillant arrangement that the UK can have if only it has the nerve to ask for it loudly and persistently enough".

    Apart from a pretty small minority, my impression is that most people in the UK would like to have an arrangement with the EU which allows life to flow more freely between us and them.

    What hasn't been worked out is what, if anything, the UK is prepared to give up or share to enable this.

    One answer is "nothing", in which case you end up at the Johnson-Frost model of Brexit, which is going badly and causing Bregret.

    Another is to more-or-less give up input into the rules, in which case EEA works fine. Or if you don't want Freedom of Movement, the May plan would have settled into the same thing in many fields. (Notice that Norway and Swizerland are fairly small, so had less potential input anyway, and have played the game shrewdly. They have autonomy on the specific things that matter to them, like fish, oil and banking, and calculate that that is worth being a rule taker in other fields.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    Chris said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    Im talking about the british people...people are saying they have lost their country
    That happened 2000 years ago. We've all been mongrels since then, thank God. The ignorance of some racists ...
    Some of us are part Neandertal from a lot longer ago than that!
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    I called this.

    It is sad as it is predictable.
    Yes, true, you did indeed.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Tres said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Imagine if the first black Chancellor and the first Hindu PM had been Labour.

    Well, we have to imagine, in the same way we have to imagine Labour's first female PM.

    This lashing out is partly at the embarrassment of Labour being almost half a century behind the Tories on diversity. The Tories!! Damn, that must hurt.
    Tories elect figureheads, Labour pass legislation to give rights to minorities. I know which one is more important.
    Is it not better to see people as people, rather than 'minorities'?
    The legislation is there because the offenders are already seeing some peiple as the wrong sort of minority. It is to make sure that that happens. It doesn't happen if you let people post notices in B&Bs saying thingfs like "No dogs, ***** or *******."
  • One thing that makes me raise my eyebrows at each of the "LABLEAK!" revelations is the way that so many things that were "dispositive" or "smoking guns" turned out not to be anything of the sort.

    "The Furin Cleavage Site is unique!" ... except it seems now that a quarter to a third of coronaviruses have FCS
    "We've found the fingerprints of genetic tampering!" ... except it turns out that it was trying to cherrypick until an apparent sequence was found, and that the "fingerprints" in question would not have existed if people had followed the "Golden Gate" method they described.
    And now "The Republican Senate minority report says so!" ... which seems to me to be the weakest of the three "killer" ones to date.

    My instinct was "accidental lab leak" to begin with, but the molecular epidemiology report (with two separate spillover events separated by weeks) linked with the conclusive establishment that the wet market was the epicentre make it look considerably less plausible.

    Because you'd need two separate accidents, which would need for two separate infectees who went nowhere else in Wuhan other than the wet market both separate times (otherwise one or more of the many dozens of more likely superspreader sites would have been a second, third, fourth epicentre).

    There's a mindset that finds the idea of a lab leak less alarming. That implies that people (even if they're bad people) are in control of the situation. And provided the right people are in charge, all will be well. That we have the potential for sovereignty over the situation, so to speak.

    The idea that something dreadful like this can just happen, due to a combination of bad luck, stupidity and a bit of greed, that's a lot scarier in many ways. Because it can't be stopped, and mitigations depend on us all being less stupid and less greedy.
    The "Find someone to blame" mindset.

    Yeah. I'd been reading reports on potential pandemics years ago, and they concluded we'd get more and more zoonotic spillover events over time as various reservoir species get pushed out of their niches and humans push in to their territories.

    They've been expecting a big zoonotic spillover pandemic for a generation now.
    Not just someone to blame, though that's a factor.

    How much is history about the doings of great men taking the steering wheel and forging a new path, and how much is it a billion microdecisions, most of which happen whatever the great men want?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    Trouble is that it involves getting beyond "there's a brillant arrangement that the UK can have if only it has the nerve to ask for it loudly and persistently enough".

    Apart from a pretty small minority, my impression is that most people in the UK would like to have an arrangement with the EU which allows life to flow more freely between us and them.

    What hasn't been worked out is what, if anything, the UK is prepared to give up or share to enable this.

    One answer is "nothing", in which case you end up at the Johnson-Frost model of Brexit, which is going badly and causing Bregret.

    Another is to more-or-less give up input into the rules, in which case EEA works fine. Or if you don't want Freedom of Movement, the May plan would have settled into the same thing in many fields. (Notice that Norway and Swizerland are fairly small, so had less potential input anyway, and have played the game shrewdly. They have autonomy on the specific things that matter to them, like fish, oil and banking, and calculate that that is worth being a rule taker in other fields.)

    I agree on the whole, but as I say none of what people seem to want points to the EU as it actually is being the destination, even the EEA is too close for most people right now.
  • British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Imagine if the first black Chancellor and the first Hindu PM had been Labour.

    Well, we have to imagine, in the same way we have to imagine Labour's first female PM.

    This lashing out is partly at the embarrassment of Labour being almost half a century behind the Tories on diversity. The Tories!! Damn, that must hurt.
    Isn't that just a tad presumptuous - that the author's single motivation is the goings on in the British Labour Party? Maybe he doesn't give a stuff about Labour.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,700
    edited October 2022

    Tres said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Imagine if the first black Chancellor and the first Hindu PM had been Labour.

    Well, we have to imagine, in the same way we have to imagine Labour's first female PM.

    This lashing out is partly at the embarrassment of Labour being almost half a century behind the Tories on diversity. The Tories!! Damn, that must hurt.
    Tories elect figureheads, Labour pass legislation to give rights to minorities. I know which one is more important.
    Is it not better to see people as people, rather than 'minorities'?
    All I'm saying is one party has a track record of passing legislation to combat racial discrimination and one has a track record of opposing it. It took until 1965 to pass the first Race Relations Act and until 1998 to pass the first Human Rights Act.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Imagine if the first black Chancellor and the first Hindu PM had been Labour.

    Well, we have to imagine, in the same way we have to imagine Labour's first female PM.

    This lashing out is partly at the embarrassment of Labour being almost half a century behind the Tories on diversity. The Tories!! Damn, that must hurt.
    Tories elect figureheads, Labour pass legislation to give rights to minorities. I know which one is more important.
    Is it not better to see people as people, rather than 'minorities'?
    All I'm saying is one party has a track record of passing legislation to combat racial discrimination and one has a track record of opposing it.
    Yet the recent cabinets have been the most diverse in history. I don’t buy that it’s all figureheads as you say, rather it just isn’t important what someone’s background is.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    A new poster with no track record joins and starts to make divisive comments based on race?

    Say hi to Vlad for me will you Chris?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Three points:

    (1) We are not rejoining
    (2) We are not rejoining
    (3) It is possible we will have a closer relationship with the EU in future
    (3a) We are not rejoining

    It's about learning to live with your mistake, or in the case of half of us,learning to live with other people's mistake. Once you have eliminated your best option you start rejecting your most damaging alternatives.

    So Britain's destiny is Vassal State, I believe.. It takes a long time for people to accept that.
    It will never be "vassal state" because Britain's raw geopolitical power is equal to or surpasses the top two EU members on their level, and that will tell regardless of the formal treaty relationships that have been established.

    Were we an Ireland, Belgium or Denmark I'd agree with you.
    LOL, Mr Jingo personified
    I thought I might have spotted Casino in Tesco the other day.


    That's absolutely ridiculous.

    I wouldn't be seen dead in Tesco.
    That suit is a Lidl over the top, but it's scary to think somebody asda wear it Aldi.
    Full Marks for effort but didn’t really Spark.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    WTF?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    TimS said:

    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    I have always believed that it came from a lab. Nothing else made sense. The question was whether they did this deliberately or by cock up. Cock up has always looked a strong favourite to me and it remains so. A further and more problematic question was whether it was acceptable for them doing this kind of research in the first place. To which the obvious answer is no. At that point relations do become more problematic.
    Why ‘nothing else’? New viruses make the transition between species rather frequently. What do you is the origin of the original SARS? Or MERS?
    It’s possible it came from the lab, for sure, but asserting ‘nothing else’ makes sense is too strong.
    Historical viruses were engineered by the Silurians in an underground basement in London.

    Alternatively you could go for the "Intelligent Design" :D:D approach that a loving, compassionate god decided to inflict Covid on to humanity because he was bored making ichneumon wasps
    Or that, as anyone who has spent time in Asian food markets will know, the transference from animal to human is a totally plausible jump.

    Arguing with conspiracists and loons (like
    Leon) is a waste of time. They already get more oxygen than they deserve.
    That last paragraph is the (very much non objective) type of dismissal that seems to characterise a lot of knee jerk reactions to the
    lab leak hypothesis.

    There’s nothing remotely improbable about an infectious disease leaking from a lab, particularly one where we know the biosecurity level researchers worked to was
    not as high as you might expect. Remember this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_Kingdom_foot-and-mouth_outbreak

    A lab leak, owned up to and forgiven. Lessons learned. Why people are so eager to dismiss it for Covid I really don’t understand. It’s not conspiracism in the slightest. Cock up theory does the job.
    Because Trump suggested it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    edited October 2022
    Farooq said:

    Tres said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Imagine if the first black Chancellor and the first Hindu PM had been Labour.

    Well, we have to imagine, in the same way we have to imagine Labour's first female PM.

    This lashing out is partly at the embarrassment of Labour being almost half a century behind the Tories on diversity. The Tories!! Damn, that must hurt.
    Tories elect figureheads, Labour pass legislation to give rights to minorities. I know which one is more important.
    Is it not better to see people as people, rather than 'minorities'?
    Which seems to be the thrust of that article by Pankaj Mishra: don't let these people of colour be used as cover for what he sees as a regressive agenda:

    But we should be in no doubt about what an immoral and inept political class wants us to celebrate: “Asian representation” leading a cruel Tory programme of mass impoverishment.

    Agree or disgree with the politics, that call to look beyond just ethnicity is correct.
    I am sorry but that is far too generous a reading of a disgusting piece of journalism. He also says this:

    True readiness for such overpromoted Tory desis will consist in recognising that collaboration with white ruling classes or political passivity rather than struggles for social justice largely defines the history of the Indian diaspora, especially of its highly educated and upper-caste members. The over-zealous persecutors of refugees and the “tofu wokerati” today resemble, disturbingly, the Indian immigrants in A Bend in the River, VS Naipaul’s novel about decolonsing east Africa, who regard their Black and brown compatriots as the losers of history and escape to London to join its white winners. As one character sums up his bleak hyper-individualistic ethic: “The world is a rich place. It all depends on what you choose in it … I know exactly who I am and where I stand in the world. But now I want to win and win and win.”

    It is not necessary or reasonable or appropriate to insult Conservatives who happen to come from ethnic minorities in that way. By all means disagree with the politics, but suggesting that these people are somehow betraying their origins by having different politics is repulsive.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    I called this.

    It is sad as it is predictable.
    From reading that despicable article (I now need a bath) it seems its core argument is that minorities that go with the Tories are traitors and deserve all the opprobrium they get, including racism.
  • British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    They have gone a bit mad, not sure why the Guardian thinks this worthy of publication.

    It would be perfectly fine to criticise Sunak for being a fan of austerity, rich and out of touch, metropolitan elite, or a citizen of everywhere and nowhere. It would also be fine to think his background should not be of interest.

    But I really can't see how it is fine to combine his racial background with being a fan of austerity, rich and out of touch, metropolitan elite, or a citizen of everywhere and nowhere.

    Have to admit it is no better than we would expect from the Mail or Express sadly.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    We’re having a productive day it seems. I wonder if Vlad’s been having a chat with his friend Ayatollah Khamenei who reminded him that the sly English fox is the invisible puppet master behind everything, controlling the Americans and even Israel. Perhaps the Brits are behind the genetically engineered robot mosquitoes too.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Unconfirmed: Reported to be APU USV drone footage of attacks on multiple RUS Navy ships including a Project 11356 Grigorovich-class missile frigate. BREAKING (1/2)


    https://twitter.com/UKikaski/status/1586347310153433088

    Doesn’t look like it was lifted from a video game….
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    edited October 2022
    .
    TimS said:

    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    I have always believed that it came from a lab. Nothing else made sense. The question was whether they did this deliberately or by cock up. Cock up has always looked a strong favourite to me and it remains so. A further and more problematic question was whether it was acceptable for them doing this kind of research in the first place. To which the obvious answer is no. At that point relations do become more problematic.
    Why ‘nothing else’? New viruses make the transition between species rather frequently. What do you is the origin of the original SARS? Or MERS?
    It’s possible it came from the lab, for sure, but asserting ‘nothing else’ makes sense is too strong.
    Historical viruses were engineered by the Silurians in an underground basement in London.

    Alternatively you could go for the "Intelligent Design" :D:D approach that a loving, compassionate god decided to inflict Covid on to humanity because he was bored making ichneumon wasps
    Or that, as anyone who has spent time in Asian food markets will know, the transference from animal to human is a totally plausible jump.

    Arguing with conspiracists and loons (like
    Leon) is a waste of time. They already get more oxygen than they deserve.
    That last paragraph is the (very much non objective) type of dismissal that seems to characterise a lot of knee jerk reactions to the
    lab leak hypothesis.

    There’s nothing remotely improbable about an infectious disease leaking from a lab, particularly one where we know the biosecurity level researchers worked to was
    not as high as you might expect. Remember this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_Kingdom_foot-and-mouth_outbreak

    A lab leak, owned up to and forgiven. Lessons learned. Why people are so eager to dismiss it for Covid I really don’t understand. It’s not conspiracism in the slightest. Cock up theory does the job.
    While I agree that a lab leak is entirely possible, it's the proliferation of explanations that it is 100% certain - many of them contradictory - that provokes the knee jerk reactions. And that has been the case since near the start of the pandemic, which is one if the things which poisoned thd debate from the start.
    The natural origins hypothesis equally remains possible - though the attempt to ascribe odds on either direction disaster more about one's biases than it does about evidence either way.

    I've mostly (though not entirely) given up arguing with Leon in this, as it's usually a waste of effort.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    Unconfirmed: Reported to be APU USV drone footage of attacks on multiple RUS Navy ships including a Project 11356 Grigorovich-class missile frigate. BREAKING (1/2)


    https://twitter.com/UKikaski/status/1586347310153433088

    Doesn’t look like it was lifted from a video game….

    What have we done now??
  • DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    Tres said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Imagine if the first black Chancellor and the first Hindu PM had been Labour.

    Well, we have to imagine, in the same way we have to imagine Labour's first female PM.

    This lashing out is partly at the embarrassment of Labour being almost half a century behind the Tories on diversity. The Tories!! Damn, that must hurt.
    Tories elect figureheads, Labour pass legislation to give rights to minorities. I know which one is more important.
    Is it not better to see people as people, rather than 'minorities'?
    Which seems to be the thrust of that article by Pankaj Mishra: don't let these people of colour be used as cover for what he sees as a regressive agenda:

    But we should be in no doubt about what an immoral and inept political class wants us to celebrate: “Asian representation” leading a cruel Tory programme of mass impoverishment.

    Agree or disgree with the politics, that call to look beyond just ethnicity is correct.
    I am sorry but that is far too generous a reading of a disgusting piece of journalism. He also says this:

    True readiness for such overpromoted Tory desis will consist in recognising that collaboration with white ruling classes or political passivity rather than struggles for social justice largely defines the history of the Indian diaspora, especially of its highly educated and upper-caste members. The over-zealous persecutors of refugees and the “tofu wokerati” today resemble, disturbingly, the Indian immigrants in A Bend in the River, VS Naipaul’s novel about decolonsing east Africa, who regard their Black and brown compatriots as the losers of history and escape to London to join its white winners. As one character sums up his bleak hyper-individualistic ethic: “The world is a rich place. It all depends on what you choose in it … I know exactly who I am and where I stand in the world. But now I want to win and win and win.”

    It is not necessary or reasonable or appropriate to insult Conservatives who happen to come from ethnic minorities in that way. By all means disagree with the politics, but suggesting that these people are somehow betraying their origins by having different politics is repulsive.
    Not sure he's indulging in a betrayal narrative here; more like he's wearily pointing out that this is how posh Indians have always carried on. I read it more as a Marxist polemic against his own culture. It's an interesting perspective, and not a crude 'straying from the reservation' diatribe at all.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457
    I've read before that Russia ascribe a level of subversive skill to us because they take James Bond a little too literally in being representative of what we can do.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    This appears to be a video of some of the attack (through given the quality of the pictures, who knows).
    https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewPerpetua/status/1586347071950721024
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    rcs1000 said:

    Three points:

    (1) We are not rejoining
    (2) We are not rejoining
    (3) It is possible we will have a closer relationship with the EU in future
    (3a) We are not rejoining

    Some of us are younger than you, so some of us might yet see it ;)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    I've read before that Russia ascribe a level of subversive skill to us because they take James Bond a little too literally in being representative of what we can do.
    I assumed it was in part because they don't want to blame the americans for everything, so they publicly blame us as it is not so much of an escalation to accuse us.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    DavidL said:

    Unconfirmed: Reported to be APU USV drone footage of attacks on multiple RUS Navy ships including a Project 11356 Grigorovich-class missile frigate. BREAKING (1/2)


    https://twitter.com/UKikaski/status/1586347310153433088

    Doesn’t look like it was lifted from a video game….

    What have we done now??
    Sources in the SBU confirm that as a result of night time explosions in Sevastopol, at least 3 Russian ships carrying “calibers” were damaged

    Among them is the frigate Admiral Makarov. There is a high probability that several ships are not just damaged, but sunk.


    https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1586343729543057411
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    That new Black Panther movie must be absolute pants, just saw a trailer for it at the cinema which was of the actors saying how important a movie it was and how amazing - it's never a good sign when even a trailer cannot be made good, so they retreat to getting the actors to just tell us it is good.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    WTF?
    I know, how could there have been exultant noises? I thought the Daily Show had revealed it was all backlash and nothing else.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593
    kle4 said:

    That new Black Panther movie must be absolute pants, just saw a trailer for it at the cinema which was of the actors saying how important a movie it was and how amazing - it's never a good sign when even a trailer cannot be made good, so they retreat to getting the actors to just tell us it is good.

    That's a "standard thing" these days. They have these pseudo interview things that they stick on to other films, in addition to the trailers.

    They are, as you observe "quite cringe".
  • kle4 said:

    That new Black Panther movie must be absolute pants, just saw a trailer for it at the cinema which was of the actors saying how important a movie it was and how amazing - it's never a good sign when even a trailer cannot be made good, so they retreat to getting the actors to just tell us it is good.

    The Peripheral on Amazon worth a watch (early days only 3 episodes released so far).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2022
    TimS said:

    We’re having a productive day it seems. I wonder if Vlad’s been having a chat with his friend Ayatollah Khamenei who reminded him that the sly English fox is the invisible puppet master behind everything, controlling the Americans and even Israel. Perhaps the Brits are behind the genetically engineered robot mosquitoes too.
    Nasser said “The sun doesn’t set on the British Empire because god doesn’t trust the British in the dark”..
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    kle4 said:

    That new Black Panther movie must be absolute pants, just saw a trailer for it at the cinema which was of the actors saying how important a movie it was and how amazing - it's never a good sign when even a trailer cannot be made good, so they retreat to getting the actors to just tell us it is good.

    The Peripheral on Amazon worth a watch (early days only 3 episodes released so far).
    Agreed, I've really enjoyed it so far. And it is a lot more comprehensible than the book which I found not much short of bewildering.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    They have gone a bit mad, not sure why the Guardian thinks this worthy of publication.

    It would be perfectly fine to criticise Sunak for being a fan of austerity, rich and out of touch, metropolitan elite, or a citizen of everywhere and nowhere. It would also be fine to think his background should not be of interest.

    But I really can't see how it is fine to combine his racial background with being a fan of austerity, rich and out of touch, metropolitan elite, or a citizen of everywhere and nowhere.

    Have to admit it is no better than we would expect from the Mail or Express sadly.
    Having just read it, I think its main thrust is that the author thinks Sunak is being too "white". Buying into Western values, education and expectations."Never mind that Sunak’s carefully trimmed career pathways to plutocratic chic make him resemble a human pinstripe rather more than the devout Hindu in loincloth – Mahatma Gandhi – who helped the sun set on the British empire"

    I think the author is disappointed that Sunak is keeping the wheels turning instead of closing down Britain forever.

    It feels like the Indian equivalent of "blue on blue" action.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Farooq said:

    Tres said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Imagine if the first black Chancellor and the first Hindu PM had been Labour.

    Well, we have to imagine, in the same way we have to imagine Labour's first female PM.

    This lashing out is partly at the embarrassment of Labour being almost half a century behind the Tories on diversity. The Tories!! Damn, that must hurt.
    Tories elect figureheads, Labour pass legislation to give rights to minorities. I know which one is more important.
    Is it not better to see people as people, rather than 'minorities'?
    Which seems to be the thrust of that article by Pankaj Mishra: don't let these people of colour be used as cover for what he sees as a regressive agenda:

    But we should be in no doubt about what an immoral and inept political class wants us to celebrate: “Asian representation” leading a cruel Tory programme of mass impoverishment.

    Agree or disgree with the politics, that call to look beyond just ethnicity is correct.
    That message is not terrible, but he's done a good job of putting it in such a way that it will be easily ignored. A milestone might well still be historic and meaningful, without meaning other matters should be ignored.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    That new Black Panther movie must be absolute pants, just saw a trailer for it at the cinema which was of the actors saying how important a movie it was and how amazing - it's never a good sign when even a trailer cannot be made good, so they retreat to getting the actors to just tell us it is good.

    To be fair the first one was utter shit too. It's a rare sequel that digs its way out of hole that deep. Has there ever been a good sequels to really bad first film?
    Top Gun: Maverick

    As for the first movie, it was ok, I liked it fine, but it was weird to see people falling over themselves to declare how it wasn't 'just' a Marvel film. It was. Decent if you like that sort of thing, which I do, but it wasn't worth a Best Picture nomination. I mean, really?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Now beyond any reasonable doubt that the type of surface drones used by #Ukraine to attack Russian Navy in Sevastopol today were same as one previous found near the base. #OSINT

    Reference https://navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/09/ukraines-new-weapon-to-strike-russian-navy-in-sevastopol/
    And http://hisutton.com/Ukraines-New-Explosive-USV.html


    https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1586358192178601984
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    kamski said:

    Memo to Russian Trolls.

    Don’t use the same IP addresses that are black listed as troll farms.

    Polish the Ban Hammer for action!

    [Edit: I see the Hammer has fallen]
    It's interesting that Russian trolls seem to encouraged to spout anti-vax nonsense, alongside the anti-Ukraine stuff. Is it because they have found that strong anti-vaxxers will like you no matter what so long as you say something against vaccines?

    I've seen it in a friend who would be normally passionately against Desantis and everything he stands for, says he is a "hero" just because she is anti-vax. And it is starting to make her receptive to all the other shit he says
    I think they have based their profile of the British on the madder pro-Trump elements in the USA for whom being anti-vax seems to be a membership requirement.
  • Farooq said:

    Tres said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Imagine if the first black Chancellor and the first Hindu PM had been Labour.

    Well, we have to imagine, in the same way we have to imagine Labour's first female PM.

    This lashing out is partly at the embarrassment of Labour being almost half a century behind the Tories on diversity. The Tories!! Damn, that must hurt.
    Tories elect figureheads, Labour pass legislation to give rights to minorities. I know which one is more important.
    Is it not better to see people as people, rather than 'minorities'?
    Which seems to be the thrust of that article by Pankaj Mishra: don't let these people of colour be used as cover for what he sees as a regressive agenda:

    But we should be in no doubt about what an immoral and inept political class wants us to celebrate: “Asian representation” leading a cruel Tory programme of mass impoverishment.

    Agree or disgree with the politics, that call to look beyond just ethnicity is correct.
    Quite right. He clearly thinks Rishi is just the latest in a long line of oppressors both here and across the globe. And being brown skinned doesn't let Rishi off being an oppressor as they can be just as good at it (possibly better) as anyone else.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    edited October 2022
    Driver said:

    TimS said:

    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    I have always believed that it came from a lab. Nothing else made sense. The question was whether they did this deliberately or by cock up. Cock up has always looked a strong favourite to me and it remains so. A further and more problematic question was whether it was acceptable for them doing this kind of research in the first place. To which the obvious answer is no. At that point relations do become more problematic.
    Why ‘nothing else’? New viruses make the transition between species rather frequently. What do you is the origin of the original SARS? Or MERS?
    It’s possible it came from the lab, for sure, but asserting ‘nothing else’ makes sense is too strong.
    Historical viruses were engineered by the Silurians in an underground basement in London.

    Alternatively you could go for the "Intelligent Design" :D:D approach that a loving, compassionate god decided to inflict Covid on to humanity because he was bored making ichneumon wasps
    Or that, as anyone who has spent time in Asian food markets will know, the transference from animal to human is a totally plausible jump.

    Arguing with conspiracists and loons (like
    Leon) is a waste of time. They already get more oxygen than they deserve.
    That last paragraph is the (very much non objective) type of dismissal that seems to characterise a lot of knee jerk reactions to the
    lab leak hypothesis.

    There’s nothing remotely improbable about an infectious disease leaking from a lab, particularly one where we know the biosecurity level researchers worked to was
    not as high as you might expect. Remember this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_Kingdom_foot-and-mouth_outbreak

    A lab leak, owned up to and forgiven. Lessons learned. Why people are so eager to dismiss it for Covid I really don’t understand. It’s not conspiracism in the slightest. Cock up theory does the job.
    Because Trump suggested it.
    A perfectly good reason. If you dismiss out of hand 100% of what Donald Trump says you'll do ok. In a perfect world, unconstrained by other interests and obligations, you could maybe delve into each claim he makes and seek to discover the 1 in a 1000 that will be true. But, you know, time is money.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    That new Black Panther movie must be absolute pants, just saw a trailer for it at the cinema which was of the actors saying how important a movie it was and how amazing - it's never a good sign when even a trailer cannot be made good, so they retreat to getting the actors to just tell us it is good.

    To be fair the first one was utter shit too. It's a rare sequel that digs its way out of hole that deep. Has there ever been a good sequels to really bad first film?
    Arguably The Empire strikes back was better than the original Star Wars. And Terminator 2 was better but neither of the first efforts were absolutely awful.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593
    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    TimS said:

    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    I have always believed that it came from a lab. Nothing else made sense. The question was whether they did this deliberately or by cock up. Cock up has always looked a strong favourite to me and it remains so. A further and more problematic question was whether it was acceptable for them doing this kind of research in the first place. To which the obvious answer is no. At that point relations do become more problematic.
    Why ‘nothing else’? New viruses make the transition between species rather frequently. What do you is the origin of the original SARS? Or MERS?
    It’s possible it came from the lab, for sure, but asserting ‘nothing else’ makes sense is too strong.
    Historical viruses were engineered by the Silurians in an underground basement in London.

    Alternatively you could go for the "Intelligent Design" :D:D approach that a loving, compassionate god decided to inflict Covid on to humanity because he was bored making ichneumon wasps
    Or that, as anyone who has spent time in Asian food markets will know, the transference from animal to human is a totally plausible jump.

    Arguing with conspiracists and loons (like
    Leon) is a waste of time. They already get more oxygen than they deserve.
    That last paragraph is the (very much non objective) type of dismissal that seems to characterise a lot of knee jerk reactions to the
    lab leak hypothesis.

    There’s nothing remotely improbable about an infectious disease leaking from a lab, particularly one where we know the biosecurity level researchers worked to was
    not as high as you might expect. Remember this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_Kingdom_foot-and-mouth_outbreak

    A lab leak, owned up to and forgiven. Lessons learned. Why people are so eager to dismiss it for Covid I really don’t understand. It’s not conspiracism in the slightest. Cock up theory does the job.
    Because Trump suggested it.
    A perfectly good reason. If you dismiss out of hand 100% of what Donald Trump says you'll do ok. In a perfect world, unconstrained by other interests and obligations, you could maybe delve into each claim he makes and seek to discover the 1 in a 1000 that will be true. But, you know, time is money.
    I don't think he ever says anything that is deliberately true, so it is somewhat immaterial.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    Im talking about the british people...people are saying they have lost their country
    That happened 2000 years ago. We've all been mongrels since then, thank God. The ignorance of some racists ...
    Some of us are part Neandertal from a lot longer ago than that!
    I was just thinking that. We were all mongrels long before 2000 years ago. It’s kind of why humans survived.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2022
    We planned the Kerch Bridge too….

    The secret British intelligence plot to blow up Crimea’s Kerch Bridge is revealed in internal documents and correspondence obtained exclusively by The Grayzone.

    The Grayzone has obtained an April 2022 presentation drawn up for senior British intelligence officers hashing out an elaborate scheme to blow up Crimea’s Kerch Bridge with the involvement of specially trained Ukrainian soldiers. Almost six months after the plan was circulated, Kerch Bridge was attacked in an October 8th suicide bombing apparently overseen by Ukraine’s SBU intelligence services.


    https://thegrayzone.com/2022/10/10/ukrainian-kerch-bridge/

    The Russians are in a bind. They can’t grant the Ukrainian’s agency. It can’t be the Americans, so that leaves…us…
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited October 2022

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    They have gone a bit mad, not sure why the Guardian thinks this worthy of publication.

    It would be perfectly fine to criticise Sunak for being a fan of austerity, rich and out of touch, metropolitan elite, or a citizen of everywhere and nowhere. It would also be fine to think his background should not be of interest.

    But I really can't see how it is fine to combine his racial background with being a fan of austerity, rich and out of touch, metropolitan elite, or a citizen of everywhere and nowhere.

    Have to admit it is no better than we would expect from the Mail or Express sadly.
    I read the article expecting it to be crap, but actually it's quite good if you ignore the fact that it's poorly written - but what else does one expect from journalists nowadays?

    I liked this bit:

    "collaboration with white ruling classes or political passivity rather than struggles for social justice largely defines the history of the Indian diaspora, especially of its highly educated and upper-caste members"

    True, that.

    A bourgeois doesn't have to stay where they are to be a compradore.

    Doesn't have to be true. Just so happens that it is true. Not true about various other diasporas in Britain such as the Jamaican and Latin American ones.

    Not true of every single person in the Indian diaspora either, of course, but Mishra knows that.

    Suggesting the article is similar to anything that white racist organisations such as the BNP, EDL, or NF would publish is taking the piss at best.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    We aren't joining the Euro. Therefore it's very hard to see the UK rejoining the EU in its present form. Beyond that, it's very difficult to predict the future direction of travel.

    The EU is an utterly dysfunctional political body that can muddle through only by allowing a small elite to effectively run the show, and is riven with economic tensions that seem to be getting more rather less acute. There are all sorts of possibilities, and they should include scenarios where the EU starts to fragment further with the possibility of the UK joining a loose political association which includes one or more other former EU states, just as much as other possibilities involving rowing back on Brexit to some degree.

    :D you describe teh dysfunctional UK and try to project it as teh EU, incredible and perfectly highlights why England is Fcuked and taking us down wit hit. Led by donkeys right enough and more Billy No Mates than ever.
    I value my country's independence. You don't. It's time that you changed the question on the referendum that you want. Leaving the UK in order to rejoin the EU is not voting for independence.
    A lot more independent than being a colony.
    You no more live in a colony than I do. In fact I should be the one claiming to live in a colony, because where you live you have devolution and I have none. And you're not satisfied with that even though your party has 8% of the seats in the UK parliament after getting just 4% of the vote. That's in a real parliament which can properly hold the executive to account and make or break governments.
    First SNP are not my party and second , PMSL, thinking Westminster is a real Parliament shows you have gone mad.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited October 2022
    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    That new Black Panther movie must be absolute pants, just saw a trailer for it at the cinema which was of the actors saying how important a movie it was and how amazing - it's never a good sign when even a trailer cannot be made good, so they retreat to getting the actors to just tell us it is good.

    To be fair the first one was utter shit too. It's a rare sequel that digs its way out of hole that deep. Has there ever been a good sequels to really bad first film?
    Arguably The Empire strikes back was better than the original Star Wars. And Terminator 2 was better but neither of the first efforts were absolutely awful.
    The makers of any sequel to the original Star Wars would be hard-pushed to make a film that was even half as toe-curlingly awful. That's one of the few films I've given up on halfway through. I just couldn't take any more of such garbage.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593

    We planned the Kerch Bridge too….

    The secret British intelligence plot to blow up Crimea’s Kerch Bridge is revealed in internal documents and correspondence obtained exclusively by The Grayzone.

    The Grayzone has obtained an April 2022 presentation drawn up for senior British intelligence officers hashing out an elaborate scheme to blow up Crimea’s Kerch Bridge with the involvement of specially trained Ukrainian soldiers. Almost six months after the plan was circulated, Kerch Bridge was attacked in an October 8th suicide bombing apparently overseen by Ukraine’s SBU intelligence services.


    https://thegrayzone.com/2022/10/10/ukrainian-kerch-bridge/

    The Russians are in a bind. They can’t grant the Ukrainian’s agency. It can’t be the Americans, so that leaves…us…

    Does the presentation contain photographs of men in bowler hats eating baked beans to prove it is the Brits?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    The Tories on just 18% (!!) in the Midlands. Surely some kind of record low?

    London
    Lab 46%
    Con 24%
    LD 12%
    Grn 9%
    Ref 9%

    Rest of South
    Lab 52%
    Con 25%
    LD 10%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    Midlands and Wales
    Lab 52%
    Con 18%
    Ref 10%
    LD 8%
    Grn 6%
    PC 3%

    North
    Lab 55%
    Con 19%
    LD 9%
    Grn 5%
    Ref 5%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 37%
    Con 7%
    LD 4%
    Ref 3%

    (PeoplePolling/GB News; 1,185; 26 October)

    Quite striking that the Tories are now doing less badly in London than almost anywhere else. Also that there must be quite a few southeastern Blue Wall seats on those figures where Labour are in reality the main challengers even though Labour supporters are used to voting LibDem tactically. What were the overall figures?
    Lab 51%
    Con 20%
    LD 9%
    Ref 7%
    SNP 5%
    Grn 5%
    PC 1%
    oth 3%

    Yes, already we are seeing some Sunak trends: Con doing comparatively less badly in London, Con collapse in Midlands, and Reform sweeping up the racist vote.

    Where do right-wingers hear about Reform? I never see it referred to anywhere but here, and have no idea who leads it or what its main campaigns are about. The bland name doesn't sound especially racist or right-wing, sop it's not spontaneous enthusiasm for something like Britain First. Getting 7% must mean that they are getting significant coverage, surely?
    GB news , comments in youtube videos from GB news, Farage , etc .Leader (Richard Tice ) interviewed a lot on these types of shows. Its also not a racist party so would not have a nationalistic name
    While ReFuk is not a racist party, it will be a safe haven for closet racists deserting the Sunak-led Tory Party.

    It will be interesting to see just how many of them there are.

    (Too many)
    While Ref might not be explicitly racist, you have to ask yourself where else have racist voters got to go?

    If we accept that a significant minority (say 5%) of the electorate are sufficiently racist to make it a key determinant in how they vote, and that a brown PM crosses a red line for them, where else have they got to go? The really racist parties are so tiny they have barely any candidates on ballot papers, so Farage’s latest bunch will have to suffice?

    It’s all just guess work. I’m not sure anybody has conducted proper research on this.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited October 2022

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    The 4 top jobs in the UK government could be held be Sunak, Cleverly, Badenoch and Braverman and the Guardian would still be complaining about it.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    DJ41 said:

    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    That new Black Panther movie must be absolute pants, just saw a trailer for it at the cinema which was of the actors saying how important a movie it was and how amazing - it's never a good sign when even a trailer cannot be made good, so they retreat to getting the actors to just tell us it is good.

    To be fair the first one was utter shit too. It's a rare sequel that digs its way out of hole that deep. Has there ever been a good sequels to really bad first film?
    Arguably The Empire strikes back was better than the original Star Wars. And Terminator 2 was better but neither of the first efforts were absolutely awful.
    The makers of any sequel to the original Star Wars would be hard-pushed to make a film that was even half as toe-curlingly awful. That's one of the few films I've given up on halfway through. I just couldn't take any more of such garbage.
    Return of the killer tomatoes was better than attack of the killer tomatoes.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    mwadams said:

    We planned the Kerch Bridge too….

    The secret British intelligence plot to blow up Crimea’s Kerch Bridge is revealed in internal documents and correspondence obtained exclusively by The Grayzone.

    The Grayzone has obtained an April 2022 presentation drawn up for senior British intelligence officers hashing out an elaborate scheme to blow up Crimea’s Kerch Bridge with the involvement of specially trained Ukrainian soldiers. Almost six months after the plan was circulated, Kerch Bridge was attacked in an October 8th suicide bombing apparently overseen by Ukraine’s SBU intelligence services.


    https://thegrayzone.com/2022/10/10/ukrainian-kerch-bridge/

    The Russians are in a bind. They can’t grant the Ukrainian’s agency. It can’t be the Americans, so that leaves…us…

    Does the presentation contain photographs of men in bowler hats eating baked beans to prove it is the Brits?
    Should there not be a Colonel or a Captain who walks with a brolley? It was a bridge too far (a)way...
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Those saying that we will never rejoin or that it's not going to happen are, basically, projecting out of their fear that it might actually happen.

    It's called DENIAL.

    It might happen. I'm not stating that it will because no one can say for certain either way. But in terms of reasons why we might rejoin, and opinion polling, currently favour something better than Evens.

    That's called being objective.

    Have a nice weekend.

    xx

    If you don't agree with me you're in denial. What a rubbish argument.


    The main reason to think we aren't rejoining is that when people are actually asked what they do want they aren't clamouring for the EU. That only a third of the electorate want to be in the single market, nevermind the full EU, is pretty damning considering the headline polling. That suggests that even getting the UK back into the EEA would be a tall order. Which is a shame as that position would likely satisfy the most people.

    Broadly the public seem to want a closer relationship with Europe, just one that doesn't involve the single market, free movement, the ECJ, etc. I don't what they expect the politicians to do about this "move closer but don't join anything" idea.
    Bring back the King of Cakeism?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Andy_JS said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    The 4 top jobs in the UK government could be held be Sunak, Cleverly, Badenoch and Braverman and the Guardian would still be complaining about it.
    Cos they are all either incompetent, evil, dangerous or corrupt.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    Driver said:

    glw said:

    Heathener said:

    Those saying that we will never rejoin or that it's not going to happen are, basically, projecting out of their fear that it might actually happen.

    It's called DENIAL.

    It might happen. I'm not stating that it will because no one can say for certain either way. But in terms of reasons why we might rejoin, and opinion polling, currently favour something better than Evens.

    That's called being objective.

    Have a nice weekend.

    xx

    If you don't agree with me you're in denial. What a rubbish argument.


    The main reason to think we aren't rejoining is that when people are actually asked what they do want they aren't clamouring for the EU. That only a third of the electorate want to be in the single market, nevermind the full EU, is pretty damning considering the headline polling. That suggests that even getting the UK back into the EEA would be a tall order. Which is a shame as that position would likely satisfy the most people.

    Broadly the public seem to want a closer relationship with Europe, just one that doesn't involve the single market, free movement, the ECJ, etc. I don't what they expect the politicians to do about this "move closer but don't join anything" idea.
    Bring back the King of Cakeism?
    He'd like that, but really the solution is a political party willing to say if you want X you can't have Y. Hypothetically this is what the indicative votes should have done, instead they acted as a ratchet to the deal that people don't like.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    Im talking about the british people...people are saying they have lost their country
    That happened 2000 years ago. We've all been mongrels since then, thank God. The ignorance of some racists ...
    Some of us are part Neandertal from a lot longer ago than that!
    I still am. A few weeks back I took the little 'un swimming with his best friend, and the friend said to me: "Are you sure you're not a caveman?"

    Although I'd prefer to see myself as being a furball...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    "Fat shaming is only way to beat obesity crisis
    Deaths from smoking fell dramatically after it was stigmatised but disapproval of the overweight is still thought cruel
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fat-shaming-is-only-way-to-beat-obesity-crisis-h76pzqvpj
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.


    Lefties keep talking about a "honeymoon period" which is just a sign they aren't paying attention. This is not a honeymoon period.

    Isn’t it? Isn’t a new leader bounce a proven historical precedence?

    Would you like to explain what you mean?
    It's not remotely a honeymoon period - that requires there to be positive coverage. "Relief that Truss has gone" is not positive coverage.

    Sunak has taken over in an unprecedented position of shittiness. Suggesting he's failing because he hasn't bounced to 35% overnight shows a lack of understanding of the circumstances.
    So instead of a honeymoon bounce, you see Rishi Sunak slowly dragging the Tories back to towards 35% over the coming two years till the election?
    I don't think the lack of an immediate bounce to 35% necessarily precludes a slow climb to 35%. Obviously lots of things have to start going right to reach that high, but there's a long time to go until the election.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592

    We planned the Kerch Bridge too….

    The secret British intelligence plot to blow up Crimea’s Kerch Bridge is revealed in internal documents and correspondence obtained exclusively by The Grayzone.

    The Grayzone has obtained an April 2022 presentation drawn up for senior British intelligence officers hashing out an elaborate scheme to blow up Crimea’s Kerch Bridge with the involvement of specially trained Ukrainian soldiers. Almost six months after the plan was circulated, Kerch Bridge was attacked in an October 8th suicide bombing apparently overseen by Ukraine’s SBU intelligence services.


    https://thegrayzone.com/2022/10/10/ukrainian-kerch-bridge/

    The Russians are in a bind. They can’t grant the Ukrainian’s agency. It can’t be the Americans, so that leaves…us…

    We should remember the Russian's standard MO for this: give many different 'stories' about what happened, knowing some people will believe one of them. Or, in the case of PutinsGuy1943 and the MH17 shootdown, all of them.

    The Russians try to bury the truth behind many different stories. It does not matter how contradictory the stories are the more there are, the more the truth gets buried below a load of sh*t.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749

    Andy_JS said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    The 4 top jobs in the UK government could be held be Sunak, Cleverly, Badenoch and Braverman and the Guardian would still be complaining about it.
    Cos they are all either incompetent, evil, dangerous or corrupt.
    I have no doubt there are plenty of people who will attack Sunak because he is not white. I think we might well have been spared Truss's mercifully brief premiership if it hadn't been for racism in the Tory party.

    That article is obviously not attacking him because he is not white, but because of his political beliefs. Probably most of the people attacking it do understand that, but all's fair in love and war.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383
    On The Guardian article about Sunak. It's not The Guardian, is it, or one of their journalists? It's written by Pankaj Mishra, an Indian essayist and novelist. Yes, it's a controversial argument. But it's not The Guardian's view; it's Mishra's.

    The Guardian obviously decided to publish it. I assume we're all in favour of freedom of speech?
  • I see that according to Russia that we were behind this latest drone attack, the blowing up of the pipeline and the Kerch Bridge ...

    But I'm curious about this line on the BBC site.

    In recent days, Russia has been engaged in what US and Ukrainian officials describe as a disinformation campaign, with unsubstantiated claims that Kyiv is preparing to use a radioactive dirty bomb, or even biological mosquitoes.

    What's a non-biological mosquito?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,789

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    I have always believed that it came from a lab. Nothing else made sense. The question was whether they did this deliberately or by cock up. Cock up has always looked a strong favourite to me and it remains so. A further and more problematic question was whether it was acceptable for them doing this kind of research in the first place. To which the obvious answer is no. At that point relations do become more problematic.
    Why ‘nothing else’? New viruses make the transition between species rather frequently. What do you is the origin of the original SARS? Or MERS?
    It’s possible it came from the lab, for sure, but asserting ‘nothing else’ makes sense is too strong.
    Absolutely. HIV is an obvious other one. In my adult lifetime there have been two newsworthy lab leaks in the UK (Smallpox and Foot and Mouth), although neither were of an engineered virus so not as good a story for those looking for one. It seems to me that both origins are plausible and contrary to Leon's conspiracy theories either could be true. Unfortunately he might post something that is relevant in his hundreds of posts, but there is so much crap he believes in that it is like the crying wolf story and you miss the gems for all the crap. Has anyone heard anymore about the hundreds of UFOs flying over the Ukraine?
  • Andy_JS said:

    "Fat shaming is only way to beat obesity crisis
    Deaths from smoking fell dramatically after it was stigmatised but disapproval of the overweight is still thought cruel
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fat-shaming-is-only-way-to-beat-obesity-crisis-h76pzqvpj

    Stupid comparison.

    To quit smoking means not smoking anymore. Give an ex-smoker a cigarette and they're liable to have more than one.

    To quit drinking means not drinking any more. Give a recovering alcohol a drink and they're liable to have more than one.

    To quit eating means death.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,789

    I see that according to Russia that we were behind this latest drone attack, the blowing up of the pipeline and the Kerch Bridge ...

    But I'm curious about this line on the BBC site.

    In recent days, Russia has been engaged in what US and Ukrainian officials describe as a disinformation campaign, with unsubstantiated claims that Kyiv is preparing to use a radioactive dirty bomb, or even biological mosquitoes.

    What's a non-biological mosquito?

    A very, very, very small drone.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    edited October 2022

    Andy_JS said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    The 4 top jobs in the UK government could be held be Sunak, Cleverly, Badenoch and Braverman and the Guardian would still be complaining about it.
    Cos they are all either incompetent, evil, dangerous or corrupt.
    As opposed to the SNP who are just incompetent and divisive and attempting to take the moral high ground while still only ever having white leaders at both Westminster, unlike the Tories and Holyrood, unlike Scottish Labour
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593

    I see that according to Russia that we were behind this latest drone attack, the blowing up of the pipeline and the Kerch Bridge ...

    But I'm curious about this line on the BBC site.

    In recent days, Russia has been engaged in what US and Ukrainian officials describe as a disinformation campaign, with unsubstantiated claims that Kyiv is preparing to use a radioactive dirty bomb, or even biological mosquitoes.

    What's a non-biological mosquito?

    When you've tried the old robo-squito ploy, you have to revert to the biological ones.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,749
    Andy_JS said:

    British National Party
    English Defence League
    National Front

    The Guardian:

    The world has watched in appalled fascination as the UK’s ruling party scrapes the bottom of its human resources barrel: it found there its first Black chancellor of the exchequer and then, to clear up his mess, its first Hindu prime minister. Yet exultant noises from India as well as Britain would make us believe that some historic milestone has been reached.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    The 4 top jobs in the UK government could be held be Sunak, Cleverly, Badenoch and Braverman and the Guardian would still be complaining about it.
    An incredibly racist statement, of course.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    edited October 2022

    On The Guardian article about Sunak. It's not The Guardian, is it, or one of their journalists? It's written by Pankaj Mishra, an Indian essayist and novelist. Yes, it's a controversial argument. But it's not The Guardian's view; it's Mishra's.

    The Guardian obviously decided to publish it. I assume we're all in favour of freedom of speech?

    The would have made a smarter decision not to have published brain dead drivel, and given the time and space to perceptive nuanced journalism instead.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    That new Black Panther movie must be absolute pants, just saw a trailer for it at the cinema which was of the actors saying how important a movie it was and how amazing - it's never a good sign when even a trailer cannot be made good, so they retreat to getting the actors to just tell us it is good.

    To be fair the first one was utter shit too. It's a rare sequel that digs its way out of hole that deep. Has there ever been a good sequels to really bad first film?
    Arguably The Empire strikes back was better than the original Star Wars. And Terminator 2 was better but neither of the first efforts were absolutely awful.
    Toy Story, all were brillaint
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457
    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    That new Black Panther movie must be absolute pants, just saw a trailer for it at the cinema which was of the actors saying how important a movie it was and how amazing - it's never a good sign when even a trailer cannot be made good, so they retreat to getting the actors to just tell us it is good.

    To be fair the first one was utter shit too. It's a rare sequel that digs its way out of hole that deep. Has there ever been a good sequels to really bad first film?
    Arguably The Empire strikes back was better than the original Star Wars. And Terminator 2 was better but neither of the first efforts were absolutely awful.
    Aliens was better than Alien, IMHO - original was too long and slow.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259

    Well there's a surprise!

    The defence ministry did not give evidence for its claim.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-british-navy-personnel-blew-up-nord-stream-gas-pipelines-2022-10-29/

    More interesting is that Ukraine has the ability to attack the fleet in port at Sevastopol
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457
    glw said:

    I've read before that Russia ascribe a level of subversive skill to us because they take James Bond a little too literally in being representative of what we can do.
    British specialists helping the Ukrainian Navy in Sevastapol earlier today.


    There needs to be a Spy Who Loved Me thumbnail response to every Russian allegation of British involvement from now on, I think.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    We planned the Kerch Bridge too….

    The secret British intelligence plot to blow up Crimea’s Kerch Bridge is revealed in internal documents and correspondence obtained exclusively by The Grayzone.

    The Grayzone has obtained an April 2022 presentation drawn up for senior British intelligence officers hashing out an elaborate scheme to blow up Crimea’s Kerch Bridge with the involvement of specially trained Ukrainian soldiers. Almost six months after the plan was circulated, Kerch Bridge was attacked in an October 8th suicide bombing apparently overseen by Ukraine’s SBU intelligence services.


    https://thegrayzone.com/2022/10/10/ukrainian-kerch-bridge/

    The Russians are in a bind. They can’t grant the Ukrainian’s agency. It can’t be the Americans, so that leaves…us…

    We should remember the Russian's standard MO for this: give many different 'stories' about what happened, knowing some people will believe one of them. Or, in the case of PutinsGuy1943 and the MH17 shootdown, all of them.

    The Russians try to bury the truth behind many different stories. It does not matter how contradictory the stories are the more there are, the more the truth gets buried below a load of sh*t.
    They ar eburying more than the truth these days as they get a whupping.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259

    Matt le Tissier going off piste about the vaccine here

    Who will be the first from the msm to accept responsibility for their part and give the many vaccine injured a platform?

    https://twitter.com/mattletiss7/status/1585968248503545858?s=20&t=gqceeISOopl2FZ5EV93m7w

    Why do the trolls always end up on COVID conspiracy theories? Vaccines are dangerous, masks are bad, it came from a lab leak… on and on.
    Because people like you associate two ludicrous claims (vaccines are dangerous and masks are bad) with a plausible theory (lab leak).

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Have we done this one yet? A shocker of a "Uncle Tom" Sunak piece from the Guardian yesterday:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Rather well written in places, but poisonous.
  • carnforth said:

    Have we done this one yet? A shocker of a "Uncle Tom" Sunak piece from the Guardian yesterday:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/rishi-sunak-britain-first-hindu-prime-minister-destroying-tories-pitiful-vision-of-diversity

    Rather well written in places, but poisonous.

    Yes, I've already debunked the suggestion that it's an 'Uncle Tom' piece.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    kjh said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    I have always believed that it came from a lab. Nothing else made sense. The question was whether they did this deliberately or by cock up. Cock up has always looked a strong favourite to me and it remains so. A further and more problematic question was whether it was acceptable for them doing this kind of research in the first place. To which the obvious answer is no. At that point relations do become more problematic.
    Why ‘nothing else’? New viruses make the transition between species rather frequently. What do you is the origin of the original SARS? Or MERS?
    It’s possible it came from the lab, for sure, but asserting ‘nothing else’ makes sense is too strong.
    Absolutely. HIV is an obvious other one. In my adult lifetime there have been two newsworthy lab leaks in the UK (Smallpox and Foot and Mouth), although neither were of an engineered virus so not as good a story for those looking for one. It seems to me that both origins are plausible and contrary to Leon's conspiracy theories either could be true. Unfortunately he might post something that is relevant in his hundreds of posts, but there is so much crap he believes in that it is like the crying wolf story and you miss the gems for all the crap. Has anyone heard anymore about the hundreds of UFOs flying over the Ukraine?
    There have been frequent worldwide pandemics through recorded history, even when travel was much less frequent - e.g. the Black Death in the mid 1300s. None of these started in 'labs'. Therefore it is perfectly possible for new diseases and pestilences to pop up and spread. In fact, it is to be expected.

    In the 1900s, we had the 1918 'Spanish' flu. The 1957 pandemic. The 1980s AIDS crisis.

    This does not mean that the lab leak hypothesis is impossible; just that 'natural' outbreaks of novel diseases are hardly unknown or amazing.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Matt le Tissier going off piste about the vaccine here

    Who will be the first from the msm to accept responsibility for their part and give the many vaccine injured a platform?

    https://twitter.com/mattletiss7/status/1585968248503545858?s=20&t=gqceeISOopl2FZ5EV93m7w

    Why do the trolls always end up on COVID conspiracy theories? Vaccines are dangerous, masks are bad, it came from a lab leak… on and on.
    Because people like you associate two ludicrous claims (vaccines are dangerous and masks are bad) with a plausible theory (lab leak).

    That's one ludicrous claim (vaccines are dangerous) and two plausible theories.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457
    Let this be a lesson:

    "An anti-woke chief constable who promoted a “back to basics” strategy has lifted Greater Manchester Police (GMP) out of special measures in less than 18 months.

    Under Stephen Watson’s leadership 999 call answer times have been cut from an average of one minute 22 seconds to seven seconds, response times have been reduced and arrests have increased by 60 per cent. He has also ordered officers to improve their public image by ironing uniforms, polishing boots, shaving and tying up long hair.

    When he was appointed, Watson set out his stall as the “anti-woke” chief constable. Asked if he would take the knee at protests like other policing leaders, he replied no, adding: “I would probably kneel before the Queen, God and Mrs Watson, that’s it.”

    He has railed against “virtue-signalling” police officers who put rainbows on their epaulettes and said the public would rather they locked up burglars.

    Watson has said that when he arrived he found officers so demoralised they were failing to investigate offences such as shoplifting, petrol station forecourt drive-offs, vehicle crime and burglary.

    Officers had been too “reactive” rather than out on the beat trying to prevent crime, he added."


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anti-woke-police-chief-lifts-greater-manchester-forces-999-and-arrest-rates-rrzs36kkz
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259

    Driver said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.


    Lefties keep talking about a "honeymoon period" which is just a sign they aren't paying attention. This is not a honeymoon period.

    Isn’t it? Isn’t a new leader bounce a proven historical precedence?

    Would you like to explain what you mean?
    This isn’t a typical situation.

    Most new PMs have a clear external driver for change (retirement - May was different but “get Brexit done” was a powerful slogan). Therefore it was fair to give the new guy/gal a chance.

    On this occasion Rishi has to earn the right for the Tories to be heard first
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,259

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    I have always believed that it came from a lab. Nothing else made sense. The question was whether they did this deliberately or by cock up. Cock up has always looked a strong favourite to me and it remains so. A further and more problematic question was whether it was acceptable for them doing this kind of research in the first place. To which the obvious answer is no. At that point relations do become more problematic.
    Why ‘nothing else’? New viruses make the transition between species rather frequently. What do you is the origin of the original SARS? Or MERS?
    It’s possible it came from the lab, for sure, but asserting ‘nothing else’ makes sense is too strong.
    They’ve spent 3 years looking for the vector with no success
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Oct 29 (Reuters) - Russia has suspended participation in a U.N.-brokered deal to export agricultural produce from Ukrainian ports following attacks on ships in Crimea, TASS quoted the defence ministry as saying on Saturday.

    Russia said that Ukrainian forces, with the help of drones, attacked ships from the Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol, the biggest city in Russian-annexed Crimea, in the early hours of Saturday.

    "Taking into account... the terrorist act by the Kyiv regime with the participation of British experts against the ships of the Black Sea Fleet and civilian vessels involved in ensuring the security of the "grain corridor", the Russian side suspends participation in the implementation of agreements on the export of agricultural products from Ukrainian ports," the ministry said in a statement


    emphasis added

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-suspends-participation-deal-ukraine-grain-exports-tass-2022-10-29/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited October 2022
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    I have always believed that it came from a lab. Nothing else made sense. The question was whether they did this deliberately or by cock up. Cock up has always looked a strong favourite to me and it remains so. A further and more problematic question was whether it was acceptable for them doing this kind of research in the first place. To which the obvious answer is no. At that point relations do become more problematic.
    People who said it might have come from a lab were regarded as dangerous conspiracy theorists for a long time.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Matt le Tissier going off piste about the vaccine here

    Who will be the first from the msm to accept responsibility for their part and give the many vaccine injured a platform?

    https://twitter.com/mattletiss7/status/1585968248503545858?s=20&t=gqceeISOopl2FZ5EV93m7w

    Why do the trolls always end up on COVID conspiracy theories? Vaccines are dangerous, masks are bad, it came from a lab leak… on and on.
    Because people like you associate two ludicrous claims (vaccines are dangerous and masks are bad) with a plausible theory (lab leak).
    A mystifyingly stupid conflation.

    Chinese politicians and scientists are decent middle class chaps rather like us in suits and ties or lab coats, who would never make a mistake or cover it up if they did. Whereas the Chinese poor are as disgusting as poor people everywhere and routinely bite the heads off live bats in wet markets.

    Seems to be the train of thought.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.


    Lefties keep talking about a "honeymoon period" which is just a sign they aren't paying attention. This is not a honeymoon period.

    Isn’t it? Isn’t a new leader bounce a proven historical precedence?

    Would you like to explain what you mean?
    It's not remotely a honeymoon period - that requires there to be positive coverage. "Relief that Truss has gone" is not positive coverage.

    Sunak has taken over in an unprecedented position of shittiness. Suggesting he's failing because he hasn't bounced to 35% overnight shows a lack of understanding of the circumstances.
    So instead of a honeymoon bounce, you see Rishi Sunak slowly dragging the Tories back to towards 35% over the coming two years till the election?
    I don't think the lack of an immediate bounce to 35% necessarily precludes a slow climb to 35%. Obviously lots of things have to start going right to reach that high, but there's a long time to go until the election.
    I disagree. My reading of the political situation, economic situation and polling is completely opposite from your argument.

    A bounce from the honeymoon period we are in, with all the extensive positive media coverage, is important because of the historical precedent those who get good early results with voters can be winners, those who don’t get them are certain losers. If there isn’t that instant appeal of freshness and competence from Sunak straight after Truss and Boris, then he is unlikely to ever appear any more favourable in eyes of voters after mistakes and painful decisions.

    It’s not just we are about to enter a rocky road between government and voters for two years, where voters won’t like tax rises, public spending cuts, but the way the Torys melted down this year they are inviting blame for the pain, blame for the high interest rates, blame for the lack growth - it’s only a honeymoon bounce convinces us the narrative could play out differently from that, that despairing voters are minded to give Sunak a chance.

    Quite the opposite from your argument, the truth is no polling bounce to average in 30s this November, and the Tories are clearly facing one of the worse popularity crisis in their history, far worse than 97.
  • On The Guardian article about Sunak. It's not The Guardian, is it, or one of their journalists? It's written by Pankaj Mishra, an Indian essayist and novelist. Yes, it's a controversial argument. But it's not The Guardian's view; it's Mishra's.

    The Guardian obviously decided to publish it. I assume we're all in favour of freedom of speech?

    Sure, but there are different standards for what should be against the law and what should be in a mainstream national press article.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited October 2022

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    Im talking about the british people...people are saying they have lost their country
    That happened 2000 years ago. We've all been mongrels since then, thank God. The ignorance of some racists ...
    Some of us are part Neandertal from a lot longer ago than that!
    I still am. A few weeks back I took the little 'un swimming with his best friend, and the friend said to me: "Are you sure you're not a caveman?"

    Although I'd prefer to see myself as being a furball...
    [edit] Cheddar Gorge cave burial DNA research found a closest living relative, indeed, in a local schoolmaster in the area IIRC.
  • novanova Posts: 692

    Let this be a lesson:

    "An anti-woke chief constable who promoted a “back to basics” strategy has lifted Greater Manchester Police (GMP) out of special measures in less than 18 months.

    Under Stephen Watson’s leadership 999 call answer times have been cut from an average of one minute 22 seconds to seven seconds, response times have been reduced and arrests have increased by 60 per cent. He has also ordered officers to improve their public image by ironing uniforms, polishing boots, shaving and tying up long hair.

    When he was appointed, Watson set out his stall as the “anti-woke” chief constable. Asked if he would take the knee at protests like other policing leaders, he replied no, adding: “I would probably kneel before the Queen, God and Mrs Watson, that’s it.”

    He has railed against “virtue-signalling” police officers who put rainbows on their epaulettes and said the public would rather they locked up burglars.

    Watson has said that when he arrived he found officers so demoralised they were failing to investigate offences such as shoplifting, petrol station forecourt drive-offs, vehicle crime and burglary.

    Officers had been too “reactive” rather than out on the beat trying to prevent crime, he added."


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anti-woke-police-chief-lifts-greater-manchester-forces-999-and-arrest-rates-rrzs36kkz

    Of course, it's quite a jump to connect tying up hair to reducing the time it takes to answer 999 calls.

    Heads that turn around failing schools will often do similar (uniforms/stricter rules), but to be successful in the long term they need to do a hell of a lot more. I expect the anti-woke stuff is a mix of PR for the press, while signalling that change is coming to the staff. The actual changes in delivery are almost certainly down to him being very good at understanding how a good police force works, and being a clever manager.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    nova said:

    Let this be a lesson:

    "An anti-woke chief constable who promoted a “back to basics” strategy has lifted Greater Manchester Police (GMP) out of special measures in less than 18 months.

    Under Stephen Watson’s leadership 999 call answer times have been cut from an average of one minute 22 seconds to seven seconds, response times have been reduced and arrests have increased by 60 per cent. He has also ordered officers to improve their public image by ironing uniforms, polishing boots, shaving and tying up long hair.

    When he was appointed, Watson set out his stall as the “anti-woke” chief constable. Asked if he would take the knee at protests like other policing leaders, he replied no, adding: “I would probably kneel before the Queen, God and Mrs Watson, that’s it.”

    He has railed against “virtue-signalling” police officers who put rainbows on their epaulettes and said the public would rather they locked up burglars.

    Watson has said that when he arrived he found officers so demoralised they were failing to investigate offences such as shoplifting, petrol station forecourt drive-offs, vehicle crime and burglary.

    Officers had been too “reactive” rather than out on the beat trying to prevent crime, he added."


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anti-woke-police-chief-lifts-greater-manchester-forces-999-and-arrest-rates-rrzs36kkz

    Of course, it's quite a jump to connect tying up hair to reducing the time it takes to answer 999 calls.

    Heads that turn around failing schools will often do similar (uniforms/stricter rules), but to be successful in the long term they need to do a hell of a lot more. I expect the anti-woke stuff is a mix of PR for the press, while signalling that change is coming to the staff. The actual changes in delivery are almost certainly down to him being very good at understanding how a good police force works, and being a clever manager.
    The anti-wokery will be to keep Tories and Tory pols happy, not just the media. Though it could come unstuck in the other direction, given the general tendency to canteen culture of many police. Will be interesting to see what happens.
This discussion has been closed.