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Let’s talk about Brexit – politicalbetting.com

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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568
    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    kjh said:

    Farooq said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Rather OT, but I see that Octopus are officially taking over the remnants of Bulb : https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63437352

    What's this got to do with Leon?
    Whose Leon? Should we have a thread about him?
    Whose Leon? Leon belongs to all of us. He is the commonwealth of all humanity.

    We are all Leon.
    No! I'm Leon!!!....
    I'm not.
    That's what Byronic said...
    Damn. Have I just outed myself as another of the SeanT multiverses?
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    How that must cheer your little dark heart....
    It worries me greatly. We could have a humanitarian catastrophe in ukraine this winter...yet both sides have rigid negotiating positions
    What negotiating position do you suggest Ukraine adopt?

    Bearing in mind, they have been invaded for no obvious reason by a neighbour led by a man who is clearly one sandwich short of a picnic and who has broken every single treaty he's ever signed.
    Firstly zelensky should abandon his claims on Crimea...thats a start
    Why?

    PS - Incidentally, Zelensky has no claim on Crimea. We're talking about Ukraine not a personal fiefdom.
    Exactly. And the ongoing departure of Russians who relocated to Crimea tells you something. They aren't exactly defending the Motherland in the way ordinary people in Ukraine are defending their homes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    Methinks Chris Heaton will be in receipt of a PB ban within hours.

    For all the so called Libertarian facade of the site

    Its not really
    It allows admirers of Boris Johnson to post a load of mindless hate against Keir Starmer. What more proof do you need it's libertarian?
  • Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    Methinks Chris Heaton will be in receipt of a PB ban within hours.

    For all the so called Libertarian facade of the site

    Its not really
    Well people on PB wont be suffering like the ukrainians this winter...so far to them the war is like call of duty
  • ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Farooq said:

    Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    Methinks Chris Heaton will be in receipt of a PB ban within hours.

    For all the so called Libertarian facade of the site

    Its not really
    When as this site claimed to be Libertarian? The owner is a liberal; that's not the same thing.
    You can get away with lots of things on here.

    Heck, there are even three posters who are known to say rude things about Radiohead.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Farooq said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    "here in the west" == "how do you do, fellow kids?"
    For me the more interesting news is apparently we don't often use central heating in October.

    I haven't used it this month, but that's for the first October ever.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    Methinks Chris Heaton will be in receipt of a PB ban within hours.

    For all the so called Libertarian facade of the site

    Its not really
    Well people on PB wont be suffering like the ukrainians this winter...so far to them the war is like call of duty
    Try using a full stop, helps disuise you a bit.
    If you think people in the U.K. haven’t been directly affected by the illegal Russian assault on Ukraine you clearly don’t live here. Millions are having to make tough decisions about eating vs heating. Millions are worried about being able to pay bills. Most people hear are backing Ukraine as they are the innocent victims of nationalist aggression, just as Russia was in 1941.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    Methinks Chris Heaton will be in receipt of a PB ban within hours.

    For all the so called Libertarian facade of the site

    Its not really
    When as this site claimed to be Libertarian? The owner is a liberal; that's not the same thing.
    You can get away with lots of things on here.

    Heck, there are even three posters who are known to say rude things about Radiohead.
    Poor, misguided fools though.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
  • Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    Methinks Chris Heaton will be in receipt of a PB ban within hours.

    For all the so called Libertarian facade of the site

    Its not really
    Well people on PB wont be suffering like the ukrainians this winter...so far to them the war is like call of duty
    Try using a full stop, helps disuise you a bit.
    If you think people in the U.K. haven’t been directly affected by the illegal Russian assault on Ukraine you clearly don’t live here. Millions are having to make tough decisions about eating vs heating. Millions are worried about being able to pay bills. Most people hear are backing Ukraine as they are the innocent victims of nationalist aggression, just as Russia was in 1941.
    Not the same as being bombed or without power though is it
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    Looks like they may have little option if this is right.

    https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1586033132171849728?s=61&t=-_QCiLtrq2iOnjVNKSjnDQ
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090

    Tucker Carlson here warning about only 24 days of diesel fuel left

    https://twitter.com/samanthamarika1/status/1586086467171860480?s=20&t=cNHCqIbB6h9jzrmgYmhntg

    Anyway, while we’ve got you here, when are you going to call the Northern Ireland Assembly election for?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Mildest October temperatures across Europe since 1879.

    https://twitter.com/extremetemps/status/1586287951155077120

    Even the weather Gods hate Putin.

    To be fair though even in a normal october you dont use your heating mych. The next 4 months are critical
    NOT A HOLIDAY

    Another Gazette commission
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,841

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Reinforced with a bunch of untrained, unequipped conscripts who may also be praying for a mild winter. What sort of state is the Russian economy in if troops are having to buy their own supplies? Looking at it from my own ivory tower things may not end well for them.
  • Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    Looks like they may have little option if this is right.

    https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1586033132171849728?s=61&t=-_QCiLtrq2iOnjVNKSjnDQ
    Even if thats correct the russians stay in place whilst little ukrainians suffer....
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,593
    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    False dichotomy. Next.
    Do we think those "reinforced positions" with demotivated troops, supply lines under constant attack, partisan warfare, the ability to do end-runs around the defences, defeat in the south and the cutting of the land bridge into Crimea, are going to be worth anything come the Spring?

    This is Ukraine defending its territory.

    The only outcome I can see as acceptable to Ukraine is military defeat for Russia, and a diplomatic post-war settlement that neuters their ability to do this again.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405

    Tucker Carlson here warning about only 24 days of diesel fuel left

    https://twitter.com/samanthamarika1/status/1586086467171860480?s=20&t=cNHCqIbB6h9jzrmgYmhntg

    Anyway, while we’ve got you here, when are you going to call the Northern Ireland Assembly election for?
    We say NEVER
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited October 2022

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
  • We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    🐎 A BETTING POST

    Four from me as usual. Seasons getting proper stuff now. Knitting whilst watching the racing. My gran would be so proud of me 😇

    1.50 Wetherby
    Macavity long shot of week
    Hurdling Debut for points winner. 7-1 drew me in closer.

    2.05 Ascot
    Anyharminasking NAP
    Why am I giving this one napoleon? There’s no harm in asking as this is an up and coming superstar of the racing universe!

    2.40 Ascot
    Amoola Gold
    Another one from last seasons book. With little recent runs from fancied runners, I trust my previous due diligence in race history

    3.15 Ascot
    Major Dundee E/W
    Is Dundee another Major up and coming superstar? My each way bet of the week and will be surprised if not placed in this big race of the day.

    Enjoy Saturday 😘
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    Well, I'm sure they don't. There he was, seen as the best chance of stopping NATO intervention in Ukraine as Chancellor, watching the pennies, and now he's PM he's still supporting them.

    It must be very confusing in your country right now. Particularly given you are clearly worried about power, food and the implosion of the army.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    Methinks Chris Heaton will be in receipt of a PB ban within hours.

    For all the so called Libertarian facade of the site

    Its not really
    When as this site claimed to be Libertarian? The owner is a liberal; that's not the same thing.
    You can get away with lots of things on here.

    Heck, there are even three posters who are known to say rude things about Radiohead.
    Poor, misguided fools though.
    Philip Selway’s got a new solo album out in February.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Reinforced with a bunch of untrained, unequipped conscripts who may also be praying for a mild winter. What sort of state is the Russian economy in if troops are having to buy their own supplies? Looking at it from my own ivory tower things may not end well for them.
    Wouldn't a mild winter mean it was very muddy and difficult to move everything around, including food and fuel?

    If so, Russia have ingeniously got to the situation where they're fucked if the weather's good, and fucked if it's bad.

    Which you've got to admire in a way. It takes talent to get to such a perfectly balanced disaster.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    I think the ukrainian offensive has stalled...you fail to realise we cant control Russia so expecting Putin to suddenly turn into a cuddly teddy bear is a bit futile...and dont you care about the ukrainian children...think of them shivering in the cold and dark...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    Methinks Chris Heaton will be in receipt of a PB ban within hours.

    For all the so called Libertarian facade of the site

    Its not really
    Surely the libertarian position is that the website is free to set its own terms of engagement and that's it. If you come on here and adopt an overtly pro-Russian position you'll be banned under the pretence that it's 'trolling' or somesuch. There is nothing stopping you setting up your own website where Ukrainian Super Friends get their arses kicked off.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Bakhmut is a meat grinder for Russian conscripts. The ground is said to be like bitumen - with the remains of flesh. That's what HIMARS will do.

    And all so the Wagner Group can claim their "success fees". They took 3 months to capture a quarry there - then lost it again in 48 hours. I hope they haven't been paid for that "success"....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Oh, I think I could live with his suicide. Even if he couldn't.

    Oh sorry, are you referring to nukes?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited October 2022

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    I think the ukrainian offensive has stalled...you fail to realise we cant control Russia so expecting Putin to suddenly turn into a cuddly teddy bear is a bit futile...and dont you care about the ukrainian children...think of them shivering in the cold and dark...
    What makes you think we can control Ukraine now either?

    Has it occurred to you that in the awful state of the Russian army the Ukrainians may no longer need Western arms to oust the occupying forces?

    Edit - incidentally, Ukraine are still advancing. They are advancing more slowly because the rasputista has started. But they made further gains near both Kherson and Kreminna.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    Something set on fire in Sevastopol naval base this morning. How will Putin reward the lackey who gives him that news?

    So give him our regards for us.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/COUPSURE/status/1586286635708076032
    Luckily the attacking drones were destroyed before they could do any damage, which was lucky because otherwise they might have disrupted their regular scheduled setting things on fire exercise.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Oh, I think I could live with his suicide. Even if he couldn't.

    Oh sorry, are you referring to nukes?
    Never mentioned Akehurst
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    Something will only happen when it becomes convenient for the west to fall out with China. At the moment it will be consigned to the fringes of the debate and dismissed as a conspiracy theory.
  • We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    @rcs1000

    'The UK will not seek readmission to the EU in your or my lifetime, and even if they did (which they won't), they wouldn't take us.'

    That's about all that can be said, all that needs to be said on the subject.

    There probably isn't a bigger Europhile on this Site than me and I have zero interest in rejoining, and zero expection that it will happen.

    We have made our bed. Now we lie in it.

    Should it continue to grow more uncomfortable, we might just decide to change beds.

    Nothing is forever.

    While I have no expectations of much, if any movement in the next five years, those looking ahead towards the end of this decade will likely have a very different perspective.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,841
    Can we please spare a thought for the people of Kalinnigrad. Currently defenceless after their 11 Army Corps was destroyed in Ukraine. Given the aggressive intentions of the Nato alliance that surrounds them on all sides it can't be long before they face an incursion.
  • We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    Something will only happen when it becomes convenient for the west to fall out with China. At the moment it will be consigned to the fringes of the debate and dismissed as a conspiracy theory.
    It is no longer a conspiracy theory. That Vanity Fair article - on top of so much other evidence - is pretty conclusive. The evidence all points to a lab leak. A small but bitter minority of virologists - nearly all (all?) linked to China - pretend otherwise. For a year there was a massive cover-up to stop us even thinking about the lab leak, involving senior scientists, politicians, et al, right across the West

    I have no idea how this will play out. Unprecedented
  • Taz said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    Something will only happen when it becomes convenient for the west to fall out with China. At the moment it will be consigned to the fringes of the debate and dismissed as a conspiracy theory.
    Fauci had a lab in Wuhan....many think covid was the opening act of ww3
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
    Because obviously, Ukraine being invaded would have no impact on the rest of the world. It's only those Ukrainians and their children that you claim to care about so much that get raped, tortured and murdered. So why don't we just leave them to it?

    Is that the empathy you're talking about?
  • We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    Not really the liberal elite hide behind diversity as it increases their own power....its pure self interest on their part
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
    You're new here, aren't you?

    Hello and welcome.

    Most of us have learned not to take things Leon says that seriously.

    With interest, but not seriously.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    I think the ukrainian offensive has stalled...you fail to realise we cant control Russia so expecting Putin to suddenly turn into a cuddly teddy bear is a bit futile...and dont you care about the ukrainian children...think of them shivering in the cold and dark...
    Everyone said the Kharkiv offensive had stalled too. Until those months of Ukrainians probing for weak spots, working out who to encircle, mapping out the battlefield, all came together in a blitzkrieg that rocked the Russian army to its core. So much so, it needed to top up the 200,000 initial soldiers it threw into war with Ukraine with 300,000 more - at least, those who weren't savvy enough/too poor/too pissed to get out of Russia's borders.

    There's a swathe of 20-45 year olds who were smart, entrepreneurial, driven - they have left Russia. Once they have lived in a society free of Putin's goons, they aren't coming back.

    What's left back in Russia are the poor, the stupid, the alcoholic. You can see it in the poor quality of the remaining bots.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Can we please spare a thought for the people of Kalinnigrad. Currently defenceless after their 11 Army Corps was destroyed in Ukraine. Given the aggressive intentions of the Nato alliance that surrounds them on all sides it can't be long before they face an incursion.

    Calais survived for centuries as an English city, even though half the time its garrison was in England propping up the King.

    Because the French didn't actually want it that badly...
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,841

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    Not really the liberal elite hide behind diversity as it increases their own power....its pure self interest on their part
    You hang around with the liberal elite? That really is deep cover.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
    Because obviously, Ukraine being invaded would have no impact on the rest of the world. It's only those Ukrainians and their children that you claim to care about so much that get raped, tortured and murdered. So why don't we just leave them to it?

    Is that the empathy you're talking about?
    If the russian army is so useless how would they threaten the rest of the world
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    Something will only happen when it becomes convenient for the west to fall out with China. At the moment it will be consigned to the fringes of the debate and dismissed as a conspiracy theory.
    Fauci had a lab in Wuhan....many think covid was the opening act of ww3
    ‘Many’, no, not really.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    That Vanity Fair article is explosive. It came from the lab, almost certainly

    What will this do to West/China relations?

    What will it do to virology, and science at large?

    Tony Fauci needs to go on trial and - if convicted - do time, as do many top boffins around the world who conspired in the cover-up - Vallance and Farrar in the UK, for a start - and many others

    Peter Daszak and others close to the crime need Nuremberg Trials with potential execution at the end, if convicted. Twenty MILLION people have died. Worse than World War One

    Something will only happen when it becomes convenient for the west to fall out with China. At the moment it will be consigned to the fringes of the debate and dismissed as a conspiracy theory.
    Fauci had a lab in Wuhan....many think covid was the opening act of ww3
    "many"?

    You need to broaden your circle of friends internet chat rooms.
  • Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited October 2022

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
    Because obviously, Ukraine being invaded would have no impact on the rest of the world. It's only those Ukrainians and their children that you claim to care about so much that get raped, tortured and murdered. So why don't we just leave them to it?

    Is that the empathy you're talking about?
    If the russian army is so useless how would they threaten the rest of the world
    We're not talking about the rest of the world. We're talking about Ukraine.

    It would be nice if you showed some empathy with the Ukrainian people. After all, you were yourself calling for it.

    But apparently you don't care if they're raped, tortured, murdered, driven from their homes, unable to sell their grain and can't grow food for themselves, as long as the Russians are doing it.

    That's - interesting.

    I think my one plus point is you haven't talked about BA yet, but otherwise, you're a real disappointment. We had much classier Russian bots on here recently. Dynamo could even hold an intelligent conversation for 30 seconds, although he had a Father Jack like tendency to revert to type after that.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    I think the ukrainian offensive has stalled...you fail to realise we cant control Russia so expecting Putin to suddenly turn into a cuddly teddy bear is a bit futile...and dont you care about the ukrainian children...think of them shivering in the cold and dark...
    Everyone said the Kharkiv offensive had stalled too. Until those months of Ukrainians probing for weak spots, working out who to encircle, mapping out the battlefield, all came together in a blitzkrieg that rocked the Russian army to its core. So much so, it needed to top up the 200,000 initial soldiers it threw into war with Ukraine with 300,000 more - at least, those who weren't savvy enough/too poor/too pissed to get out of Russia's borders.

    There's a swathe of 20-45 year olds who were smart, entrepreneurial, driven - they have left Russia. Once they have lived in a society free of Putin's goons, they aren't coming back.

    What's left back in Russia are the poor, the stupid, the alcoholic. You can see it in the poor quality of the remaining bots.
    Absolutely.

    For the future of Mother Russia this war has been a disaster and losing its brightest and best young people will be catastropic. But the nations they come to,will be the beneficiaries.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    How that must cheer your little dark heart....
    It worries me greatly. We could have a humanitarian catastrophe in ukraine this winter...yet both sides have rigid negotiating positions
    What negotiating position do you suggest Ukraine adopt?

    It's going to have to be more or less (probably less) the 2014 borders because the Ukrainians aren't going all the way to Moscow (or even Rostov) and the Russians aren't going all the way to Kiev.
    Yes agreed and rhetoric needs to be toned down on zelenskys side...we cant do anything about putin
    While the country that invaded them continues to call for the complete destruction of the Ukrainian state, you opine that Zelensky needs to "tone down the rhetoric".

    Pitiful stuff.

    The fact is that Ukraine has a negotiating position, which as in any negotiation will always be maximalist at the outset.
    Russia's position effectively requires Ukraine's surrender. That is not a negotiation

  • I see we have another Kremlin bot on here

    They keep turning up and the only question is how long they remain
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,231
    I see we are toying with the troll today…
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
    Acceding to nuclear blackmail would also be a gamble.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Farooq, like the rest of us, probably don’t know them as you do, we are Brits and live with them.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
    Because obviously, Ukraine being invaded would have no impact on the rest of the world. It's only those Ukrainians and their children that you claim to care about so much that get raped, tortured and murdered. So why don't we just leave them to it?

    Is that the empathy you're talking about?
    If the russian army is so useless how would they threaten the rest of the world
    We're not talking about the rest of the world. We're talking about Ukraine.

    It would be nice if you showed some empathy with the Ukrainian people. After all, you were yourself calling for it.

    But apparently you don't care if they're raped, tortured, murdered, driven from their homes, unable to sell their grain and can't grow food for themselves, as long as the Russians are doing it.

    That's - interesting.

    I think my one plus point is you haven't talked about BA yet, but otherwise, you're a real disappointment. We had much classier Russian bots on here recently. Dynamo could even hold an intelligent conversation for 30 seconds, although he had a Father Jack like tendency to revert to type after that.
    West appears disunited now
    People abroad have been hearing awful things from that rapper Kanye West
    So even the scourge of anti semitism is rising in the west now
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    I see we have another Kremlin bot on here

    They keep turning up and the only question is how long they remain

    @Malmesbury suggested we keep one as a pet.

    But this one isn't a particularly interesting one. I don't think we need to keep it too long.

    It's quite amusing tying it in knots with questions it can't answer and therefore elects to ignore. I've still had no answer to why Ukraine should abandon its claim to Crimea. Possibly because there isn't one, of course.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406

    I see we have another Kremlin bot on here

    They keep turning up and the only question is how long they remain

    It is strange how every single one has exactly the same opinion on UK domestic politics too.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,231
    edited October 2022

    I see we have another Kremlin bot on here

    They keep turning up and the only question is how long they remain

    You beat me to it!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
    Because obviously, Ukraine being invaded would have no impact on the rest of the world. It's only those Ukrainians and their children that you claim to care about so much that get raped, tortured and murdered. So why don't we just leave them to it?

    Is that the empathy you're talking about?
    If the russian army is so useless how would they threaten the rest of the world
    We're not talking about the rest of the world. We're talking about Ukraine.

    It would be nice if you showed some empathy with the Ukrainian people. After all, you were yourself calling for it.

    But apparently you don't care if they're raped, tortured, murdered, driven from their homes, unable to sell their grain and can't grow food for themselves, as long as the Russians are doing it.

    That's - interesting.

    I think my one plus point is you haven't talked about BA yet, but otherwise, you're a real disappointment. We had much classier Russian bots on here recently. Dynamo could even hold an intelligent conversation for 30 seconds, although he had a Father Jack like tendency to revert to type after that.
    West appears disunited now
    People abroad have been hearing awful things from that rapper Kanye West
    So even the scourge of anti semitism is rising in the west now
    Ok, that's another one ticked off, he's ranting about antisemitism. Very soon, there will be talk of Holocaust survivors, who oddly can't be named or linked to, complaining at Russia's actions being called a genocide.

    I don't know why we're suddenly disunited after 40 minutes. Heck, even @Dura_Ace and I have agreed a negotiating position for Ukraine now. Given he's been a consistent pessimist about their chances, I'd say we're becoming more united.
  • I fully expect rcs will ban me later. He doesnt seem a fan of free speech sadly...maybe working for goldman sachs changed him
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    Away from that. The polling figures remain extraordinary. I know it takes a couple of weeks, but the sheer scale of the lack of bounce so far has astonished me.
    If we hadn't had the nineties they'd be unprecedented.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    I think the ukrainian offensive has stalled...you fail to realise we cant control Russia so expecting Putin to suddenly turn into a cuddly teddy bear is a bit futile...and dont you care about the ukrainian children...think of them shivering in the cold and dark...
    What makes you think we can control Ukraine now either?

    Has it occurred to you that in the awful state of the Russian army the Ukrainians may no longer need Western arms to oust the occupying forces?
    ....
    That is pretty unlikely.
    Apart from anything else, they would run out of ammunition within weeks.

    As an aside, here's an interesting analysis of the performance of western kit.

    https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/10/how-is-russia-faring-against-nato.html?m=1
    ...After a steady supply of nearly every type of armament from Western countries imaginable, and with plenty of combat experience to properly deploy these new weapons systems on the battlefield, the Ukrainian Army is arguably at its strongest point since the 24th of February. [1] In contrast, the Russian Army has lost its morale and image of strength in Ukraine. In an effort to assure its domestic audience of its capabilities, the Russian MoD has had to resort to gross exaggerations and outright lies to brush up its combat performance in Ukraine. Examples are the reported destruction and capture of 20 HIMARS out of 16 HIMARS delivered (at the time of the claim) to Ukraine, and the shootdown of 1000 Bayraktar TB2s out of some 50 TB2s delivered to Ukraine (with Baykar Tech only ever having produced 450 TB2s). [2]

    With Russia meanwhile outgunned and outranged on most fronts, the biggest threat to the operations of Ukrainian HIMARS, M270 and Western-donated tube artillery does not appear to be the destruction by Russian counter-battery fire or loitering munitions, but rather a lack of ammunition and barrel wear as a result of continued operations. Only a dozen out of the approximately 160 155mm M777 towed howitzers delivered to Ukraine are visually confirmed to have been destroyed. [3] And despite claiming the destruction of 20 HIMARS launchers, Russia has brought forward no evidence that supports the destruction of even a single HIMARS. The only units that have in fact been suffering losses at the hands of Russian military forces are Ukraine's mechanised units, which have been the recipient mainly of ex-Soviet equipment and are currently leading the charge in Kherson....


  • dixiedean said:

    Away from that. The polling figures remain extraordinary. I know it takes a couple of weeks, but the sheer scale of the lack of bounce so far has astonished me.
    If we hadn't had the nineties they'd be unprecedented.

    Sunak is not liked by the majority of british people
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Taz said:

    Tucker Carlson here warning about only 24 days of diesel fuel left

    https://twitter.com/samanthamarika1/status/1586086467171860480?s=20&t=cNHCqIbB6h9jzrmgYmhntg

    Anyway, while we’ve got you here, when are you going to call the Northern Ireland Assembly election for?
    We say NEVER
    A small correction: Since it is Norn Iron, the correct phrasing is "Never! Never!! NEVER!!!" :smile:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    I fully expect rcs will ban me later. He doesnt seem a fan of free speech sadly...maybe working for goldman sachs changed him

    Well, the site's owners don't have 'free speech.' They have to pay for every post we make.

    If you want 'free speech' there are costs involved. Maybe you could negotiate a subscription rate so you can continue spouting Nazi propaganda for our bemusement?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    I fully expect rcs will ban me later. He doesnt seem a fan of free speech sadly...maybe working for goldman sachs changed him

    You don't appear to understand what free speech means.
    Tip, it doesn't encompass unrestricted access to privately owned sites by trolls.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    dixiedean said:

    Away from that. The polling figures remain extraordinary. I know it takes a couple of weeks, but the sheer scale of the lack of bounce so far has astonished me.
    If we hadn't had the nineties they'd be unprecedented.

    Sunak is not liked by the majority of british people
    No tory is liked by the majority of british people at the moment
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406

    dixiedean said:

    Away from that. The polling figures remain extraordinary. I know it takes a couple of weeks, but the sheer scale of the lack of bounce so far has astonished me.
    If we hadn't had the nineties they'd be unprecedented.

    Sunak is not liked by the majority of british people
    On the contrary.
    Implies the Conservatives aren't liked. Sunak is merely meh. Before he's had to do owt unpopular.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,789

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
    Because obviously, Ukraine being invaded would have no impact on the rest of the world. It's only those Ukrainians and their children that you claim to care about so much that get raped, tortured and murdered. So why don't we just leave them to it?

    Is that the empathy you're talking about?
    If the russian army is so useless how would they threaten the rest of the world
    a) We didn't know how useless they were
    b) They have nukes
    c) If Ukrainian hadn't put up a fight with our help where would it stop. You shouldn't give in to bullies.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    Those who want us to join the single market still have to address the fact that it was economically catastrophic for us, not because there is anything wrong with either the concept or the theory of the SM but because of the policies that we elected in this country. If we return we would need to cut consumption sharply, increase our savings and investment ratios, think hard about how to encourage import substitution and work out how we are going to pay our way in the world. This means higher interest rates, higher taxes on consumption and a lower standard of living for the majority.

    Many of those necessary steps are of course good things and things we should be working on in or out but a return means our politicos need to divert their eyes from the successes of the City and work how the rest of the country remains competitive. Repeating our previous mistakes without addressing these problems would have the same disastrous consequences.

    "catastrophic"
    "disastrous"

    I don't know if I can take the middle of your post seriously with that kind of hyperbole bookending it. What on earth do you mean by catastrophe and disaster?
    I mean that we have operated a massive trade deficit with the other members of the SM for 30 years; that as a result many of our assets have been sold to foreign buyers because of the debts we have accrued; that we have gone from some of the wealthier citizens of Europe to amongst the poorest as a result; that this failure to be competitive has resulted in wages not growing in real terms for most for over a decade; that all wage growth has largely been focused on our finance sector which was properly competitive and that we have only managed to maintain high employment by excess consumption creating low value service jobs.

    The cumulative effect of this is indeed catastrophic and disastrous. Even the chaos caused by Truss's incompetence was a result of us no longer having the right to regulate our own affairs, we are dependent on the funding of others and cannot step out of line. The fact that this has been a slow moving disaster does not make it any less of one.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    Im talking about the british people...people are saying they have lost their country
  • I see we have another Kremlin bot on here

    They keep turning up and the only question is how long they remain

    Remain lost. The question has to be phrased when will they leave or the 17.4m will feel insulted.....
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Things looking bleak in Kyiv at the moment. This from the telegraph

    Ukrainians will freeze to death this winter if the West does not urgently send blankets and generators to keep them warm, Vitali Klitschko has said.

    The 51-year-old mayor of Kyiv, and former heavyweight boxing champion of the world, told The Telegraph that increasing Russian attacks on power plants have left his country on the brink of a fresh humanitarian crisis. 

    “We are doing everything we can do to save the lives of our people and to protect them,” he said, banging his huge fists on the table. 

    “But this winter will definitely be a huge challenge for us.”

    Methinks Chris Heaton will be in receipt of a PB ban within hours.

    For all the so called Libertarian facade of the site

    Its not really
    When as this site claimed to be Libertarian? The owner is a liberal; that's not the same thing.
    You can get away with lots of things on here.

    Heck, there are even three posters who are known to say rude things about Radiohead.
    Really?

    And do not forget that Python is a toy. Proper programming is done is Java or C.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    Im talking about the british people...people are saying they have lost their country
    No, that's the Ukrainians, because the Russians have invaded it.

    Will nobody show empathy for them?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
    Because obviously, Ukraine being invaded would have no impact on the rest of the world. It's only those Ukrainians and their children that you claim to care about so much that get raped, tortured and murdered. So why don't we just leave them to it?

    Is that the empathy you're talking about?
    If the russian army is so useless how would they threaten the rest of the world
    We're not talking about the rest of the world. We're talking about Ukraine.

    It would be nice if you showed some empathy with the Ukrainian people. After all, you were yourself calling for it.

    But apparently you don't care if they're raped, tortured, murdered, driven from their homes, unable to sell their grain and can't grow food for themselves, as long as the Russians are doing it.

    That's - interesting.

    I think my one plus point is you haven't talked about BA yet, but otherwise, you're a real disappointment. We had much classier Russian bots on here recently. Dynamo could even hold an intelligent conversation for 30 seconds, although he had a Father Jack like tendency to revert to type after that.
    West appears disunited now
    People abroad have been hearing awful things from that rapper Kanye West
    So even the scourge of anti semitism is rising in the west now
    Ok, that's another one ticked off, he's ranting about antisemitism. Very soon, there will be talk of Holocaust survivors, who oddly can't be named or linked to, complaining at Russia's actions being called a genocide.

    I don't know why we're suddenly disunited after 40 minutes. Heck, even @Dura_Ace and I have agreed a negotiating position for Ukraine now. Given he's been a consistent pessimist about their chances, I'd say we're becoming more united.
    No we haven't. I'm talking December 2014 borders plus a bit because Crimea is a lost cause.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Its easy here in the west to be warmongereres

    But think of the poor children in ukraine suffering and dying in the cold this winter...lets have some empathy for them

    Agreed.

    The sooner the Russians feck off and stop causing them misery, the better.
    But they are not going to do. They have reinforced their positions. Do you support nato troops on the ground to force them out
    Well, you were the one calling for empathy and an end to the suffering.

    Why not ask the Russians to show some? After all, it's in their power to stop this war tomorrow.
    Yes but we cant control wjat the russians do. You dont want a peace deal but i doubt you want poor ukrainian children to freeze to death this winter. So isnt the next logicalstep nato troops on the ground
    No, but they can. So why not tell them to 'show some empathy?'

    If you think there should be protests against the continuation of the war, wouldn't they be more effective in Moscow and Minsk than in London and Paris?

    Especially since the people of Russia are suffering, and will continue to suffer, until the war is abandoned and Russia can start rebuilding its wrecked economy. Which won't happen until they've left Ukraine, including Crimea.

    As for negotiations, the Ukrainians are the ones on the offensive except in one pocket around Bakhmut, while Russian logistics look to be imploding. Isn't it rather Russia that should be seeking a quick end to the war before they implode?
    Putin has the ability to bring a quick end, in fact he keeps banging on about it.

    I am not in favour of that scenario though, but the more you corner a rat
    Yes as Leon says we are gambling with a nuclear escalation over a non nato country....maybe worth it if western europe was being invaded but over ukraine??
    Because obviously, Ukraine being invaded would have no impact on the rest of the world. It's only those Ukrainians and their children that you claim to care about so much that get raped, tortured and murdered. So why don't we just leave them to it?

    Is that the empathy you're talking about?
    If the russian army is so useless how would they threaten the rest of the world
    We're not talking about the rest of the world. We're talking about Ukraine.

    It would be nice if you showed some empathy with the Ukrainian people. After all, you were yourself calling for it.

    But apparently you don't care if they're raped, tortured, murdered, driven from their homes, unable to sell their grain and can't grow food for themselves, as long as the Russians are doing it.

    That's - interesting.

    I think my one plus point is you haven't talked about BA yet, but otherwise, you're a real disappointment. We had much classier Russian bots on here recently. Dynamo could even hold an intelligent conversation for 30 seconds, although he had a Father Jack like tendency to revert to type after that.
    West appears disunited now
    People abroad have been hearing awful things from that rapper Kanye West
    So even the scourge of anti semitism is rising in the west now
    Ok, that's another one ticked off, he's ranting about antisemitism. Very soon, there will be talk of Holocaust survivors, who oddly can't be named or linked to, complaining at Russia's actions being called a genocide.

    I don't know why we're suddenly disunited after 40 minutes. Heck, even @Dura_Ace and I have agreed a negotiating position for Ukraine now. Given he's been a consistent pessimist about their chances, I'd say we're becoming more united.
    No we haven't. I'm talking December 2014 borders plus a bit because Crimea is a lost cause.
    Bollocks! You've ruined my trolling there...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,724
    dixiedean said:

    I see we have another Kremlin bot on here

    They keep turning up and the only question is how long they remain

    It is strange how every single one has exactly the same opinion on UK domestic politics too.
    Why on earth are they interested in us?

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662

    dixiedean said:

    Away from that. The polling figures remain extraordinary. I know it takes a couple of weeks, but the sheer scale of the lack of bounce so far has astonished me.
    If we hadn't had the nineties they'd be unprecedented.

    Sunak is not liked by the majority of british people
    Who is?

    Apart from Zelensky
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    dixiedean said:

    Away from that. The polling figures remain extraordinary. I know it takes a couple of weeks, but the sheer scale of the lack of bounce so far has astonished me.
    If we hadn't had the nineties they'd be unprecedented.

    Sunak is not liked by the majority of british people
    Let me explain an aspect of democracy those unfamiliar with it probably aren't aware of.
    Most leaders in power aren't liked by the majority of their people.

    Of course that's likely true of authoritarian regimes too. It's just that you don't get the opportunity freely to express that opinion.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    Im talking about the british people...people are saying they have lost their country
    Trevor Noah? Is that you??
  • dixiedean said:

    Away from that. The polling figures remain extraordinary. I know it takes a couple of weeks, but the sheer scale of the lack of bounce so far has astonished me.
    If we hadn't had the nineties they'd be unprecedented.

    Sunak is not liked by the majority of british people
    Who is?

    Apart from Zelensky
    Paddington Bear and Prue Leith.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,457

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    Is that inside the FSB?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    dixiedean said:

    Away from that. The polling figures remain extraordinary. I know it takes a couple of weeks, but the sheer scale of the lack of bounce so far has astonished me.
    If we hadn't had the nineties they'd be unprecedented.

    Sunak is not liked by the majority of british people
    Who is?

    Apart from Zelensky
    Paddington Bear and Prue Leith.
    Wouldn't last long if either were ever PM.

  • dixiedean said:

    Away from that. The polling figures remain extraordinary. I know it takes a couple of weeks, but the sheer scale of the lack of bounce so far has astonished me.
    If we hadn't had the nineties they'd be unprecedented.

    Sunak is not liked by the majority of british people
    Who is?

    Apart from Zelensky
    Active politicians on yougov trackers - just Obama and Zelensky I think

    Boris and King of the North highest active domestic ones (Balls higher but inactive) but only around 30% popularity.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    Im talking about the british people...people are saying they have lost their country
    Trevor Noah? Is that you??
    Why do all bots punctuate the same way? Two clauses, separated by an elllipsis* without preceding or succeeding spaces, no other punctuation at all apart from a capital letter at the start.
    Bots, if you can't punctuate, no one will listen.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863

    HYUFD said:

    Just 23% of voters want to rejoin the full EU with a further 11% wanting to rejoin the single market.

    Just 7% of Conservative voters want to rejoin the full EU with a further 12% wanting to rejoin the single market

    https://institute.global/policy/moving-how-british-public-views-brexit-and-what-it-wants-future-relationship-european-union

    This was a fun poll that's being quoted by either side to prove whatever they want, because they have exceptionally teensy numbers for both "rejoin" and "brexit as it actually exists". The way they get these numbers is by giving the voters multiple types of unicorn, including the epically vague option of "in a new kind of association with the EU unlike anything we know today".
    Not really. It's the Tony Blair Institute and the executive foreword is by the man himself.

    Simply, a third want the single market, a third want a closer relationship but not that (think Richard Nabavi's article last month), and a third want the existing Brexit deal or more.

    It doesn't point to Rejoin getting anywhere close in the next 10-15 years.
    The trend is our friend
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803
    Cookie said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    We have now had 7 polls since Rishi Sunak took over. Here’s the average VI (compared to average VI in the last 7 polls under Truss):

    Lab 51.4% (-1.6)
    Con 24.3% (+2.9)
    LD 8.9% (-0.7)
    Ref 5.2% (+1.2)
    SNP 4.4% (+0.4)
    Grn 4.3% (+0.2)

    In other words, not much change. Certainly not enough to calm Tory nerves.

    How long will the party wait without an upswing before they become restless again? A month? Six months? Certainly not a year.

    A 27% point deficit for the governing party during their leader's honeymoon period should set the alarm bells ringing.

    And that's with Sunak's personal ratings actually dragging up the Conservative vote. Those ratings date back to his actions with furlough etc, and I don't think they'll hold up after the economic entrenchment to come. Efforts from the person who was Chancellor for most of this parliament to dodge the bullet and claim that the economic mess is all Truss's fault are risible.

    Nor do I think he has much political nous. For a start, he's standing in the way of the king taking up the invite to COPT26, at the same time as signalling a renewal of the restrictions on onshore windfarms that have all but killed off new developments. Unnecessary and avoidable own goals that will have already alienated any voter who thinks that tackling climate change should be a priority.


    Sunak is a dead duck. In conversations ive had with people they say to me they dont trust him together with some aspersions to "that indian" This is a deeply divided country now
    I think that says rather more about the people which you hang out with than anything else.
    Not really i hang with normal people not the liberal left elite. Ordinary people dont want Sunak
    Reading your post I would suggest you hang out with deeply unpleasant people
    You're wrong. He doesn't hang out with anyone. The "some people say that..." is the "I think that..." when you know everyone will call you an arse for saying it.
    You clearly dont know the british people like i do...many are fuming inside
    Just tell us what you think. You don't like Sunak. Because he's brown. Am I right?
    Im talking about the british people...people are saying they have lost their country
    Trevor Noah? Is that you??
    Why do all bots punctuate the same way? Two clauses, separated by an elllipsis* without preceding or succeeding spaces, no other punctuation at all apart from a capital letter at the start.
    Bots, if you can't punctuate, no one will listen.
    * I don't think this is technically the right word. No doubt someone will correct me.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Three points:

    (1) We are not rejoining
    (2) We are not rejoining
    (3) It is possible we will have a closer relationship with the EU in future
    (3a) We are not rejoining

    It's about learning to live with your mistake, or in the case of half of us,learning to live with other people's mistake. Once you have eliminated your best option you start rejecting your most damaging alternatives.

    So Britain's destiny is Vassal State, I believe.. It takes a long time for people to accept that.
    It will never be "vassal state" because Britain's raw geopolitical power is equal to or surpasses the top two EU members on their level, and that will tell regardless of the formal treaty relationships that have been established.

    Were we an Ireland, Belgium or Denmark I'd agree with you.
    LOL, Mr Jingo personified
    I thought I might have spotted Casino in Tesco the other day.


    That's absolutely ridiculous.

    I wouldn't be seen dead in Tesco.
    That suit is a Lidl over the top, but it's scary to think somebody asda wear it Aldi.
  • German foid price infation jumps to 29% in october. Disastrous

    https://twitter.com/thesiriusreport/status/1586252659212025856?s=20&t=gqceeISOopl2FZ5EV93m7w
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