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Is this going to be Truss’s last week as PM? – politicalbetting.com

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  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605
    MikeL said:

    I think most members would accept Rishi.

    He got 43% last time and would almost certainly poll more in any new vote given what's happened in the last few weeks.

    And the key point is that most Conservative members see it as a social organisation and are not very ideological.

    Of course there are plenty of hardcore nutters but they are in the minority.

    The are certainly persistent voices pushing for Rishi. It’s somewhat dodgy. You get the impression that a group will keep destabilising the government until they get their man. Thy therefore shouldn’t be allowed near power.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,593
    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Fuck 'em

    They got us into this mess.

    Imagine waking up this morning worried about your mortgage or your pension. And then you see Sir Roger Gale saying “we’ll, yeah, we’d like to do something to help. But you know, the rules of the 1922 committee do have to be obeyed…”. What gets into the heads of these people.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1581900069418127360
    Who's going to deliver the leaflets?
    I think we've got way beyond worrying about that now.

  • TazTaz Posts: 14,324
    Morning all

    Dartford crossing closed by the Police due to eco cranks climbing the bridge.

    Police currently working out how to safely get refreshments up to the protesters.

    https://twitter.com/juststop_oil/status/1581897571093487617?s=61&t=6MBS6FnkzUKwCdKgXBSugg
  • Fascinating to observe these first few days of the Sunak administration. Ok so he hasn't yet been appointed PM, but these are his policies and his program being hurriedly implemented by Hunt.

    Supposedly Mrs Brady already has 100 letters - remind me of the threshold? So he goes to her with that big grin to remove his 3rd Prime Minister. Today. Because this has to stop.

    Sunak PM
    Hunt Chancellor
    Wallace Foreign
    Mordaunt Home
    Running the government as a Quad. It's the unity ticket which enough MPs will back to smash the remaining rebels.

    If they don't remove Truss before PMQs they certainly will afterwards. I don't see how this new government will keep power for long, it's basically matricide against the will of the giffer members. But they need to stabilise the ship before an inevitable General Election in the spring.
  • This is a particularly good open-source summary of why negotiated peace in Ukraine is likely not viable

    https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates

    Viable or not, there will be a negotiated peace. This is not going to end with Ukrainian tanks rolling into Red Square.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,953
    Andy_JS said:

    Who's going to deliver the leaflets?

    Nobody is going to deliver leaflets with "Liz Truss, 5 mor years..." on them
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,466
    Taz said:

    Morning all

    Dartford crossing closed by the Police due to eco cranks climbing the bridge.

    Police currently working out how to safely get refreshments up to the protesters.

    https://twitter.com/juststop_oil/status/1581897571093487617?s=61&t=6MBS6FnkzUKwCdKgXBSugg

    If the Tories can't do something about these protests preventing people from going about their business they don't deserve to be in government.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Andy_JS said:

    Heathener said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Starmer could be PM within weeks.

    How?

    I love the idea, obvs, but how?
    It only needs 40 Tory MPs to decide an election is better than having yet another PM "without a mandate".
    I love the idea Andy but this is surely pure fantasy? What you are basically suggesting is that 40 tory MPs vote themselves out of a job.

    I don't think there are 4 Tory MPs with that kind of moral self-sacrifice, let alone 40.

    HY is wrong about Major in '97. He dragged it out past the autumn of '96 and then had a 6 week interminable election campaign. None of it helped his cause: the perception of desperately clinging onto power against the evident wishes of the people.

    The tories this time face a Canada-style wipeout if they're not careful.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    MikeL said:

    I think most members would accept Rishi.

    He got 43% last time and would almost certainly poll more in any new vote given what's happened in the last few weeks.

    And the key point is that most Conservative members see it as a social organisation and are not very ideological.

    Of course there are plenty of hardcore nutters but they are in the minority.

    I think if they can’t agree to install Sunak, then it has to be Truss as PMINO. Whether they supported him, or did not, no one can seriously dispute that he’s been proved right - and spectacularly so.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737
    Don’t know about anyone else but I am still firmly on the JK Rowling for PM train. We’ll need to go through (at least) two more disappointing prime ministers first I suppose, one Tory and one Labour.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,698
    If the rules are changed so MPs decide between the Final 2 then Rishi's price on Betfair would immediately go well under 1.5.

    Now the rules may not be changed but it must be about 50:50 that they will be.

    And I maintain he might well win with the members anyway.

    There are big similarities with Ed Davey - first time LD members went for Swinson. Second time Moran appeared a much closer fit to members views but they went for Davey by wide margin.

    They knew they had to play it safe second time. Same will apply here.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,545
    Belarusian troops arriving in Hrodno, not far from the Lithuanian border, having been in Brest near the Ukranian border:

    https://twitter.com/MotolkoHelp/status/1581729165791092737?t=lyjkOA61c6EAacMZhwgY7g&s=19
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650
    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Fuck 'em

    They got us into this mess.

    Imagine waking up this morning worried about your mortgage or your pension. And then you see Sir Roger Gale saying “we’ll, yeah, we’d like to do something to help. But you know, the rules of the 1922 committee do have to be obeyed…”. What gets into the heads of these people.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1581900069418127360
    The least popular and least affordable bits of the budget ie the corporation tax and higher rate income tax cuts
    have already been reversed. The cut in the basic rate was actually popular with voters
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    MikeL said:

    I think most members would accept Rishi.

    He got 43% last time and would almost certainly poll more in any new vote given what's happened in the last few weeks.

    And the key point is that most Conservative members see it as a social organisation and are not very ideological.

    Of course there are plenty of hardcore nutters but they are in the minority.

    I think if they can’t agree to install Sunak, then it has to be Truss as PMINO. Whether they supported him, or did not, no one can seriously dispute that he’s been proved right - and spectacularly so.
    He has indeed

    If Boris hadn't been such a prick and spent time downing Sunak, we might actually have a sensible Prime Minister.

    Once again Boris Johnson is partly responsible for the ills of this country.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Fuck 'em

    They got us into this mess.

    Imagine waking up this morning worried about your mortgage or your pension. And then you see Sir Roger Gale saying “we’ll, yeah, we’d like to do something to help. But you know, the rules of the 1922 committee do have to be obeyed…”. What gets into the heads of these people.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1581900069418127360
    Who's going to deliver the leaflets?
    Royal Mail. CCHQ can afford the postage, what with the hedge fund donors to add to the Russian donors.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,841
    It's not so much that the membership has buyers' remorse over Truss as that they loathe Rishi as a regicide.

    A decent proportion of both the Parliamentary party and the membership would have BoJo back in a heartbeat.

    Ponder that. From a betting and can't quite fucking believe it perspective also.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2022
    Good day to bury bad news:

    For all the talk of wanting more borrowing powers, the SNP is extremely fortunate not to have a bond market to instantaneously mark its homework tomorrow*.

    https://twitter.com/staylorish/status/1581653214516367360

    * Today
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,953
    Another Monday begins with the overwhelming sense that after the cruelty of austerity, the delusions of Brexit, the moral squalor of partygate, and now market fundamentalists who don’t even understand market fundamentals…..Britain deserves better.

    https://twitter.com/D_G_Alexander/status/1581902585958572032
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807

    DougSeal said:

    Truss is going nowhere unless she resigns. The current Conservative Party uniting round a single candidate? Or alternatively putting it back to the members? Do me a favour.

    Here's the thing: everyone faces extinction if she stays.

    So, she won't be allowed to fight a GE and, therefore, Keir Starmer won't be the *next* Prime Minister.
    It’s a question purely of timing. If they’re bringing the Special Fiscal Reverse Ferret forward to today (or at least some of it) I think it dents some of the pressure today. The news cycle will be absorbed with it. But it will raise even greater questions about why the heck Truss is even there.

    Three key factors to Truss’ departure:

    1. How well the markets perform - the more stable they appear the more she will probably be tolerated, though it won’t solve the leadership issue.

    2. How quickly the Tory Party finds its “coronation candidate”. The longer it takes them to agree the longer the process - unless Truss takes matters into her own hands they won’t act until they know they have the replacement sorted.

    3. How PMQs goes on Wednesday. If it’s another car crash like Fridays press conference (which is entirely plausible) I think it will focus minds.

    It’s absolutely right that whatever and whenever the matter of departure, Truss is not leading the Tories into the next GE.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605

    Fascinating to observe these first few days of the Sunak administration. Ok so he hasn't yet been appointed PM, but these are his policies and his program being hurriedly implemented by Hunt.

    Supposedly Mrs Brady already has 100 letters - remind me of the threshold? So he goes to her with that big grin to remove his 3rd Prime Minister. Today. Because this has to stop.

    Sunak PM
    Hunt Chancellor
    Wallace Foreign
    Mordaunt Home
    Running the government as a Quad. It's the unity ticket which enough MPs will back to smash the remaining rebels.

    If they don't remove Truss before PMQs they certainly will afterwards. I don't see how this new government will keep power for long, it's basically matricide against the will of the giffer members. But they need to stabilise the ship before an inevitable General Election in the spring.

    Rishi will try to pin all the blame on Truss despite being instrumental to the underlying political instability and economic weakness. I cant see the right let him get away with it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,953
    TOPPING said:

    It's not so much that the membership has buyers' remorse over Truss as that they loathe Rishi as a regicide.

    A decent proportion of both the Parliamentary party and the membership would have BoJo back in a heartbeat.

    Ponder that. From a betting and can't quite fucking believe it perspective also.

    Bring back BoZo.

    Then have the privilege committee suspend him from the House.

    That'll calm the markets...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Which is why Sunak and Hunt are clear lays.

    If there is such a candidate it could be someone no-one has thought of yet.
    Sunak and Hunt as Leader and Chancellor also guarantees Farage returns to attack them from their right flank while there is no guarantee they win back voters lost to Starmer and Davey
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    moonshine said:

    Don’t know about anyone else but I am still firmly on the JK Rowling for PM train.

    The last thing this country needs is a TERF as PM, thanks.

    The country will move on. Sean et. al. will be left raging against the dying light, but the country will move on.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,074
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Fuck 'em

    They got us into this mess.

    Imagine waking up this morning worried about your mortgage or your pension. And then you see Sir Roger Gale saying “we’ll, yeah, we’d like to do something to help. But you know, the rules of the 1922 committee do have to be obeyed…”. What gets into the heads of these people.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1581900069418127360
    The least popular and least affordable bits of the budget ie the corporation tax and higher rate income tax cuts
    have already been reversed. The cut in the basic rate was actually popular with voters
    It may have been popular, and as a standalone measure it may have not created this crisis, but Hunt now understandably needs to restore market confidence and that means erring on the side of fiscal prudence.

    So it's now popular, but not affordable.

    Any future Tory leadership contest won't resemble a competition as to who can hand out the most free sweeties.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Anyway, I'm off before I get into a pointless argument with Carlotta or Cyclefree. Have a good day folks.

    Mad times. What will things look like in 24 hours?
  • darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    Well the situation that has existed for the last few years in some industries (my own particularly) has meant that there is now a huge shortage of contractors to the extent that projects are being delayed because they cannot proceed for lack of expertise. They need to find another way of dealing with this because the current (pre mini-budget) situation is unsustainable and will be costing the Government revenue.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,264
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Does Wallace actually want the job?
    He has not ruled it out now and is the only viable unity candidate who could unite the Truss backers and the Tory moderates with a broad based Cabinet while still being acceptable to the membership
    He would be another IDS; just not bright enough. Entirely coincidental that he too was a Jock Guard.
    I have to say I have the same reservations and I wonder if he knows it too, hence why he bowed out last time.

    I think he's a solid guy - and a nice one - but being PM is a completely different sort of job.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    AlistairM said:

    Early morning in Ukraine there have been very large number of kamikaze Iranian-made drones attacking cities including Kyiv. A large number have been shot down. There were a few cruise missiles but it was primarily a drone attack. If Russia had lots of spare missiles they would surely be sending them in. It looks like the only munitions they have supplies of currently are the drones.

    Some tweets on this today:

    AFP photographer @YasuyoshiChiba captured the moment a kamikaze drone dived on its target this morning in Kyiv.
    https://twitter.com/COUPSURE/status/1581898167129296896

    Remains of an Iranian kamikaze drone that was shot down in #Kyiv
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1581899069630205954

    And yet the Iranians are denying supplying any. Remarkable.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,171
    Scott_xP said:

    Heathener said:

    If this stabilises the markets, as I expect it will, then I am not convinced that Truss is going to be ousted at the moment.

    Even if she survives today, there are further problems tomorrow and the next day if Hunt starts flexing his muscles in other policy areas.

    For example, as a former health secretary is he really going to let Coffey hand out antibiotics like Halloween candy..?
    No he is not.

    And that is not the policy. Pharmacists are trained medical professionals and this is a limited extension of their ability to dispense drugs.

    Goodness knows there is enough to criticise this government for without lying

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,456
    DavidL said:

    AlistairM said:

    Early morning in Ukraine there have been very large number of kamikaze Iranian-made drones attacking cities including Kyiv. A large number have been shot down. There were a few cruise missiles but it was primarily a drone attack. If Russia had lots of spare missiles they would surely be sending them in. It looks like the only munitions they have supplies of currently are the drones.

    Some tweets on this today:

    AFP photographer @YasuyoshiChiba captured the moment a kamikaze drone dived on its target this morning in Kyiv.
    https://twitter.com/COUPSURE/status/1581898167129296896

    Remains of an Iranian kamikaze drone that was shot down in #Kyiv
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1581899069630205954

    And yet the Iranians are denying supplying any. Remarkable.
    This has happened with some weapins supplied to Ukraine as well. Country A makes some weapons, and gives to Country/Group B. B then sells them onto C, who sells or gives them to Ukraine or Russia.

    Sometimes this is without country A's direct knowledge; often it is.

    It's perfectly feasible that Iran is not *directly* giving them to Russia, and is instead giving them to (say) Hezbollah, who us then giving them to Russia.

    Either way, the Israelis will be paying close attention.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,466
    edited October 2022
    TOPPING said:

    It's not so much that the membership has buyers' remorse over Truss as that they loathe Rishi as a regicide.

    A decent proportion of both the Parliamentary party and the membership would have BoJo back in a heartbeat.

    Ponder that. From a betting and can't quite fucking believe it perspective also.

    43% was a hefty percentage with the membership.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,324
    Heathener said:

    Anyway, I'm off before I get into a pointless argument with Carlotta or Cyclefree. Have a good day folks.

    Mad times. What will things look like in 24 hours?

    God knows. It’s crazy.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Todays statement will be on taxation changes rather than both tax and spending cuts. (BBC)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,956
    edited October 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Heathener said:

    If this stabilises the markets, as I expect it will, then I am not convinced that Truss is going to be ousted at the moment.

    Even if she survives today, there are further problems tomorrow and the next day if Hunt starts flexing his muscles in other policy areas.

    For example, as a former health secretary is he really going to let Coffey hand out antibiotics like Halloween candy..?
    No he is not.

    And that is not the policy. Pharmacists are trained medical professionals and this is a limited extension of their ability to dispense drugs.

    Goodness knows there is enough to criticise this government for without lying

    Good morning

    The policy is excellent allowing pharmacists, who are highly qualified, to prescribe antibiotics in the same way practice nurses already do

    It was Coffey's idiotic comment about handing her antibiotics to family members which deserves the criticism, not the policy itself
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    MikeL said:

    I don't think Hunt will change the fuel subsidy because it's a one-off - ie doesn't last indefinitely into the future.

    One-off costs don't really matter in the long run - if something only lasts one or two years then it has no impact at all on whether debt falls as a % of GDP in year 3.

    The point about IT, CT, NIC changes is they are assumed to be indefinite.

    One of the barmier Truss proposals was to scrap the planned rise in CT whilst refusing to offer anything more than a six month cap on business energy bills (of which just over five months remain.) Small businesses facing an existential threat from extraordinary energy bills are really not concerned at this point about the rate of CT on their non-existent profits.

    I hope that the reinstatement of the CT rise will come together with a commitment to if necessary extend the business energy price cap into the 2023/24 fiscal year, or at least a commitment to some form of relief. As you say, it's a one-off cost whereas the CT rise would be ongoing, and it's the latter which offers the prospect of cutting relative levels of debt.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Bad case of layer's remorse over Sunak.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,033

    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    Well the situation that has existed for the last few years in some industries (my own particularly) has meant that there is now a huge shortage of contractors to the extent that projects are being delayed because they cannot proceed for lack of expertise. They need to find another way of dealing with this because the current (pre mini-budget) situation is unsustainable and will be costing the Government revenue.
    In the good old days, it was terribly simple. People (with skills) had two options:

    (1) Be an employee, get holiday pay and sick pay, and contribute to NI that meant that if you lost your job and became unemployed, you recieved benefits.

    (2) Be a contractor. More money. No security.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,902
    .
    TOPPING said:

    As for next leader market (might be next LotO market!), it was put to me that the only person with the moral authority to be PM now is Rishi. His view has been consistent in terms of a fiscal plan and he didn't suddenly switch to the Truss view of the world like so many others.

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Quite where that leaves the Party or the country goodness only knows.

    Hence the suggestion of Wallace (with Sunak as Chancellor).
    Problem is that he'd either be another figurehead without power - though at least untainted as Truss is - or another unpredictable gamble without a mandate.
    And the appointment of Hunt, essentially following Sunak's economic playbook, rather undercuts the case for Sunak.

    Fundamentally the party is screwed, unless the awkward squads can be cowed into submission, as it can't go into an election with Truss as leader, and the means of replacing her is deeply problematic.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,902

    TOPPING said:

    As for next leader market (might be next LotO market!), it was put to me that the only person with the moral authority to be PM now is Rishi. His view has been consistent in terms of a fiscal plan and he didn't suddenly switch to the Truss view of the world like so many others.

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Quite where that leaves the Party or the country goodness only knows.

    You assume the Truss-voting membership have not read the papers and realised they've been sold a pup.
    If the decision were put to them again, they'd probably choose another one.
    They weren't sold a pup - they determinedly acquired one.
  • If the Tories are going to argue that we need a period of stability rather than a general election after they get rid of Truss, they are going to have to drop the NIP legislation - or at least not take it all the way onto the statute books.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,503
    Jonathan said:

    Fascinating to observe these first few days of the Sunak administration. Ok so he hasn't yet been appointed PM, but these are his policies and his program being hurriedly implemented by Hunt.

    Supposedly Mrs Brady already has 100 letters - remind me of the threshold? So he goes to her with that big grin to remove his 3rd Prime Minister. Today. Because this has to stop.

    Sunak PM
    Hunt Chancellor
    Wallace Foreign
    Mordaunt Home
    Running the government as a Quad. It's the unity ticket which enough MPs will back to smash the remaining rebels.

    If they don't remove Truss before PMQs they certainly will afterwards. I don't see how this new government will keep power for long, it's basically matricide against the will of the giffer members. But they need to stabilise the ship before an inevitable General Election in the spring.

    Rishi will try to pin all the blame on Truss despite being instrumental to the underlying political instability and economic weakness. I cant see the right let him get away with it.
    Yes, the root of the instability is from Team Rishi. They started it during the campaign in the summer, and have been using every trick in the book to undermine the PM since the day she was elected, bar a short pause to mourn the death of the Queen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,295

    Scott_xP said:

    EXCL: Keir Starmer’s shadow cabinet are receiving training sessions in how to be ministers

    Just two of them have been Secretaries of State before

    More than 20, including Starmer, have only served in the Commons during Labour’s opposition years

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ebe8ee1a-4d77-11ed-af60-3f894fe60060?shareToken=9aebd62674e1a69fd4adae2fa3c42722


    Maybe team Truss should have done this...

    Essentially the same issue that Labour faced in 1997.
    And the Tories and Lib Dems in 2010. The only former Cabinet ministers were Hague and Clarke although some e.g. Fox had been junior ministers.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,171

    Certainly giving the Opposition ammunition:

    I can’t think of a single instance in history when changes to taxes or duties have been “announced” outside Parliament. In one instance when it was leaked, it led to the Chancellor’s immediate resignation. This is a sign of further panic, not greater stability.

    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1581893260452450305

    So he doesn’t remember Blair’s government then?
  • If the Tories are going to argue that we need a period of stability rather than a general election after they get rid of Truss, they are going to have to drop the NIP legislation - or at least not take it all the way onto the statute books.

    I understand that agreement with the EU is much more likely since Truss meeting with Macron
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Does Wallace actually want the job?
    He has not ruled it out now and is the only viable unity candidate who could unite the Truss backers and the Tory moderates with a broad based Cabinet while still being acceptable to the membership
    He would be another IDS; just not bright enough. Entirely coincidental that he too was a Jock Guard.
    I have to say I have the same reservations and I wonder if he knows it too, hence why he bowed out last time.

    I think he's a solid guy - and a nice one - but being PM is a completely different sort of job.
    "But there was a reason why he didn't run in the first place and everyone in Westminster knows it."
    https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1580980400394207232?s=20&t=AgMSI8d0zFroa6QgMuCc7g

    Oct 14. No idea what this is about.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,503
    Russia now wasting their Iranian drones on non-military targets in Kiev this morning. What on Earth do they think they’ll achieve here, given that they’re close to being exhausted of any decent weapons?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Still glad it was Truss and not Johnson who was PM when the Queen died.

    Yes, just. But things are now so bad even that is retrospectively tainted.
  • Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    As for next leader market (might be next LotO market!), it was put to me that the only person with the moral authority to be PM now is Rishi. His view has been consistent in terms of a fiscal plan and he didn't suddenly switch to the Truss view of the world like so many others.

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Quite where that leaves the Party or the country goodness only knows.

    Hence the suggestion of Wallace (with Sunak as Chancellor).
    Problem is that he'd either be another figurehead without power - though at least untainted as Truss is - or another unpredictable gamble without a mandate.
    And the appointment of Hunt, essentially following Sunak's economic playbook, rather undercuts the case for Sunak.

    Fundamentally the party is screwed, unless the awkward squads can be cowed into submission, as it can't go into an election with Truss as leader, and the means of replacing her is deeply problematic.
    We *cannot* change Chancellor again. Hunt has the job until the GE. Sunak called all of this correctly (and had it branded "Project Fear" by the PM). So he becomes the PM as the critical part is bringing the markets on board.

    None of this is easy. But putting it bluntly this new administration has already collapsed. Either the party removes it *quickly* and appoints a new one. This week. Or the whole government collapses into acrimony and we get a general election. Those are the choices. Leave Truss in as a zombie with this civil war rumbling on in the party and its only a question of when it collapses completely. And they will get destroyed at the election.

    So regardless of how difficult getting Sunak in will be, the alternative is even more difficult. So get on with it.

  • I think Truss will go on Thursday.
  • Roger Gale suggesting Truss should consider her position
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1581907570394292224
    Robert Hutton
    @RobDotHutton
    (Anecdotage: in 2005, Bloomberg asked me to interview Tony Blair live on TV. I was *terrified*. As the producer counted us in, I tried to even the balance of fear: "Not to worry, prime minister, it's just five minutes on the bond market." Interview opens on Blair look of horror.)

    The tweet before it says the BBC needs to spend 5 minutes explaining with a video how the bond market works (remember it's counter intuitive to many people)...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,466
    edited October 2022
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,902

    This is a particularly good open-source summary of why negotiated peace in Ukraine is likely not viable

    https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates

    Viable or not, there will be a negotiated peace. This is not going to end with Ukrainian tanks rolling into Red Square.
    Who is suggesting that ?

    More pertinently, it is not going to end with Ukraine accepting Russian territorial seizures while they are still successfully liberating territory.
    There will eventually be a negotiated peace, but it's highly unlikely to be with an interlocutor who is still insisting that Ukraine has no right to exist as an independent nation.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,741
    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Morning all

    Dartford crossing closed by the Police due to eco cranks climbing the bridge.

    Police currently working out how to safely get refreshments up to the protesters.

    https://twitter.com/juststop_oil/status/1581897571093487617?s=61&t=6MBS6FnkzUKwCdKgXBSugg

    If the Tories can't do something about these protests preventing people from going about their business they don't deserve to be in government.
    Logically that's in the category of true but not very useful statements.

    Like "If the Moon is made of cheese then 1+1=2"
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited October 2022
    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    The opposite. Responsibility for the determination of IR35, and the tax liability, is moving back to the the contractor and away from the end client. It had been shifted to the end client in public sector contracts in 2017, and to all others in 2021.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,503

    DavidL said:

    AlistairM said:

    Early morning in Ukraine there have been very large number of kamikaze Iranian-made drones attacking cities including Kyiv. A large number have been shot down. There were a few cruise missiles but it was primarily a drone attack. If Russia had lots of spare missiles they would surely be sending them in. It looks like the only munitions they have supplies of currently are the drones.

    Some tweets on this today:

    AFP photographer @YasuyoshiChiba captured the moment a kamikaze drone dived on its target this morning in Kyiv.
    https://twitter.com/COUPSURE/status/1581898167129296896

    Remains of an Iranian kamikaze drone that was shot down in #Kyiv
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1581899069630205954

    And yet the Iranians are denying supplying any. Remarkable.
    This has happened with some weapins supplied to Ukraine as well. Country A makes some weapons, and gives to Country/Group B. B then sells them onto C, who sells or gives them to Ukraine or Russia.

    Sometimes this is without country A's direct knowledge; often it is.

    It's perfectly feasible that Iran is not *directly* giving them to Russia, and is instead giving them to (say) Hezbollah, who us then giving them to Russia.

    Either way, the Israelis will be paying close attention.
    The Israelis are paying very close attention:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581676551208259587

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,479
    TOPPING said:

    As for next leader market (might be next LotO market!), it was put to me that the only person with the moral authority to be PM now is Rishi. His view has been consistent in terms of a fiscal plan and he didn't suddenly switch to the Truss view of the world like so many others.

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Quite where that leaves the Party or the country goodness only knows.

    Rishi back as Chancellor under PM Wallace (if not him, then Mordaunt). That is where it leaves the Party.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    Nigelb said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    As for next leader market (might be next LotO market!), it was put to me that the only person with the moral authority to be PM now is Rishi. His view has been consistent in terms of a fiscal plan and he didn't suddenly switch to the Truss view of the world like so many others.

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Quite where that leaves the Party or the country goodness only knows.

    Hence the suggestion of Wallace (with Sunak as Chancellor).
    Problem is that he'd either be another figurehead without power - though at least untainted as Truss is - or another unpredictable gamble without a mandate.
    And the appointment of Hunt, essentially following Sunak's economic playbook, rather undercuts the case for Sunak.

    Fundamentally the party is screwed, unless the awkward squads can be cowed into submission, as it can't go into an election with Truss as leader, and the means of replacing her is deeply problematic.
    Some on here (me included) did say that electing Boris would result in the destruction of the Tory Party. The only question was how it would occur.

    I never thought it would be by Boris's replacement self-destructing within weeks though
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,492

    Still glad it was Truss and not Johnson who was PM when the Queen died.

    On the other hand, having seen how it was handled like clockwork, there would have been very little opportunity for Johnson to grandstand in the way you presumably fear.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2022
    Downing Street apparently unable to find any minister willing to do the broadcast round on behalf of the Prime Minister this morning.

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1581895937336967169

    Some straight bat from Damien Green on R4.

    Interesting reply on replacing Truss “don’t need or want long drawn out leadership campaign”.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Andy_JS said:
    LOL. Remember reading about that on PB.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,074
    Bond yields open down around 0.3%.

    Early days, but it looks like Hunt will come out looking very favourable when the history of this whole saga is written.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Does Wallace actually want the job?
    He has not ruled it out now and is the only viable unity candidate who could unite the Truss backers and the Tory moderates with a broad based Cabinet while still being acceptable to the membership
    He would be another IDS; just not bright enough. Entirely coincidental that he too was a Jock Guard.
    I have to say I have the same reservations and I wonder if he knows it too, hence why he bowed out last time.

    I think he's a solid guy - and a nice one - but being PM is a completely different sort of job.
    You don't need to be that bright to be PM, just reasonably competent with a clear message.

    Especially if you have a bright Chancellor and Cabinet Ministers to do the day to day work in their departments
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,902
    Sandpit said:

    Russia now wasting their Iranian drones on non-military targets in Kiev this morning. What on Earth do they think they’ll achieve here, given that they’re close to being exhausted of any decent weapons?

    They're using them for the purpose they wee designed for.
    They're not of much use against military targets. They're designed to attack population centres and their infrastructure.
    Effectively a much cheaper and slightly more accurate version of the V1.
  • DougSeal said:

    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    The opposite. Responsibility for the determination of IR35, and the tax liability, is moving back to the the contractor and away from the end client. It had been shifted to the end client in public sector contracts in 2017, and to all others in 2021.
    I do wonder though if Hunt might just find it easier to simply scrap the whole mini-budget. Revert to the previous statis quo and then use that as the baseline for his own changes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650
    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Fuck 'em

    They got us into this mess.

    Imagine waking up this morning worried about your mortgage or your pension. And then you see Sir Roger Gale saying “we’ll, yeah, we’d like to do something to help. But you know, the rules of the 1922 committee do have to be obeyed…”. What gets into the heads of these people.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1581900069418127360
    The least popular and least affordable bits of the budget ie the corporation tax and higher rate income tax cuts
    have already been reversed. The cut in the basic rate was actually popular with voters
    It may have been popular, and as a standalone measure it may have not created this crisis, but Hunt now understandably needs to restore market confidence and that means erring on the side of fiscal prudence.

    So it's now popular, but not affordable.

    Any future Tory leadership contest won't resemble a competition as to who can hand out the most free sweeties.
    Oh it will if and when the Tories go back into opposition, Labour will them have to take the tough choices in government
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,171
    TOPPING said:

    I did actually close out my Truss out in 2022 position. Things drag on for longer than we would wish, no PM ever has voluntarily left because they believed themselves not up to the job, and the 22 as it stands needs to wait a year and even if the letters go in them what next?

    As Portillo said it would have to be an acclamation but who? The only person with the credibility and moral authority to lead is loathed by the membership.

    So loathed that he got 43% of the vote
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,715
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Does Wallace actually want the job?
    He has not ruled it out now and is the only viable unity candidate who could unite the Truss backers and the Tory moderates with a broad based Cabinet while still being acceptable to the membership
    He would be another IDS; just not bright enough. Entirely coincidental that he too was a Jock Guard.
    I have to say I have the same reservations and I wonder if he knows it too, hence why he bowed out last time.

    I think he's a solid guy - and a nice one - but being PM is a completely different sort of job.
    You don't need to be that bright to be PM, just reasonably competent with a clear message.

    Especially if you have a bright Chancellor and Cabinet Ministers to do the day to day work in their departments
    If the Tories think that just being not too dim is adequate qualification to be leader of the UK, they don't deserve to be in power.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    The opposite. Responsibility for the determination of IR35, and the tax liability, is moving back to the the contractor and away from the end client. It had been shifted to the end client in public sector contracts in 2017, and to all others in 2021.
    I do wonder though if Hunt might just find it easier to simply scrap the whole mini-budget. Revert to the previous statis quo and then use that as the baseline for his own changes.
    In terms of IR35 do you mean the pre 2021 status quo or the status quo 2021-22? I mean…it’s a bit hard to keep up frankly. And I’m an employment lawyer. This is one of the few bits of tax law I know (indeed understand) intimately.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,171

    This is a particularly good open-source summary of why negotiated peace in Ukraine is likely not viable

    https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates

    Viable or not, there will be a negotiated peace. This is not going to end with Ukrainian tanks rolling into Red Square.
    I could have been clearer.

    A peace that gives large chunks of Ukraine to Russia is not viable.

    The 2012 borders would be

    Crimea is an option Ukraine can live without but it is very much in NATO’s interest that it is not part of Russia

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,953
    Battle for soul of the Tory party is - again - being fought in the media https://twitter.com/jgforsyth/status/1581909156629344256
  • HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Does Wallace actually want the job?
    He has not ruled it out now and is the only viable unity candidate who could unite the Truss backers and the Tory moderates with a broad based Cabinet while still being acceptable to the membership
    He would be another IDS; just not bright enough. Entirely coincidental that he too was a Jock Guard.
    I have to say I have the same reservations and I wonder if he knows it too, hence why he bowed out last time.

    I think he's a solid guy - and a nice one - but being PM is a completely different sort of job.
    You don't need to be that bright to be PM, just reasonably competent with a clear message.

    Especially if you have a bright Chancellor and Cabinet Ministers to do the day to day work in their departments
    So Truss and Johnson fail by your own description, not least because both appointed quite the most incompetent cabinets of recent times
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    edited October 2022
    DougSeal said:

    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    The opposite. Responsibility for the determination of IR35, and the tax liability, is moving back to the the contractor and away from the end client. It had been shifted to the end client in public sector contracts in 2017, and to all others in 2021.
    Let's make this clear

    Pre April 2017 - worker determines status
    April 2017 - April 2021 - worker determines status for private sector work, public sector worker is determined by the public sector "employer"
    Post April 2021 - worker determines status if company is "small" otherwise end client "employer" determines status but responsibility sits with agency
    Currently post april 2023 - it returns to the Pre April 2017 rules

    I will say 2 things here

    1) the post April 2017 changes simply don't work (could write war and peace wiuth examples here but won't)
    2) since April 2021 - tax avoidance by workers (who know they are doing it) and tax avoidance scams (where the worker doesn't know what is happening) have gone through the roof - I do believe that switching back to the pre 2017 rules would be very close to tax neutral

    On 2 - I probably have the second best dataset available and have complete access to the only set better than mine - we share anonymized data. HMRC's data comes from what is reported - we see what is being reported to the worker and some of the tricks I've seen are outright theft from hmrc.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Mr Hunt right to bring forward statement. Opportunity to calm markets and reduce debt interest pressures. Important to retain perspective. UK is solvent. Economy will recover. Inflation will fall. HMT and BoE working well together. Much more a political than an economic crisis.

    https://twitter.com/nickmacpherson2/status/1581900005740544000
  • rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    Well the situation that has existed for the last few years in some industries (my own particularly) has meant that there is now a huge shortage of contractors to the extent that projects are being delayed because they cannot proceed for lack of expertise. They need to find another way of dealing with this because the current (pre mini-budget) situation is unsustainable and will be costing the Government revenue.
    In the good old days, it was terribly simple. People (with skills) had two options:

    (1) Be an employee, get holiday pay and sick pay, and contribute to NI that meant that if you lost your job and became unemployed, you recieved benefits.

    (2) Be a contractor. More money. No security.
    Yep. The situation for many now is contribute to NI and still get no sick pay, holiday pay or benefits. Some of us accept that because there are still other benefits in terms of freedom of time but very large numbers have said screw that and either retired or started working overseas. My issue now is that some of the projects I should be working on are being delayed indefinitely because of lack of other necessary contractors.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Does Wallace actually want the job?
    He has not ruled it out now and is the only viable unity candidate who could unite the Truss backers and the Tory moderates with a broad based Cabinet while still being acceptable to the membership
    He would be another IDS; just not bright enough. Entirely coincidental that he too was a Jock Guard.
    I have to say I have the same reservations and I wonder if he knows it too, hence why he bowed out last time.

    I think he's a solid guy - and a nice one - but being PM is a completely different sort of job.
    You don't need to be that bright to be PM, just reasonably competent with a clear message.

    Especially if you have a bright Chancellor and Cabinet Ministers to do the day to day work in their departments
    If the Tories think that just being not too dim is adequate qualification to be leader of the UK, they don't deserve to be in power.
    Gordon Brown was highly intelligent and a hopeless PM, Churchill and Reagan were great leaders but neither were super academic
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,503
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Russia now wasting their Iranian drones on non-military targets in Kiev this morning. What on Earth do they think they’ll achieve here, given that they’re close to being exhausted of any decent weapons?

    They're using them for the purpose they wee designed for.
    They're not of much use against military targets. They're designed to attack population centres and their infrastructure.
    Effectively a much cheaper and slightly more accurate version of the V1.
    But they still cost millions, are relatively large and slow - therefore easy targets for the defenders - and there’s at most a couple of hundred of them, half of which have been used in less than a week, with little real damage to show for their efforts.

    The enemy is getting increasingly desparate, and it shows. They’re hoping to find a way resolve the air before winter, one way or another.

    Oh, and a few drones heading for Kiev is a huge domestic distraction for Russia from the real story, which is them losing even more ground in Kherson and Kharkiv. Kherson could fall this week.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Does Wallace actually want the job?
    He has not ruled it out now and is the only viable unity candidate who could unite the Truss backers and the Tory moderates with a broad based Cabinet while still being acceptable to the membership
    He would be another IDS; just not bright enough. Entirely coincidental that he too was a Jock Guard.
    I have to say I have the same reservations and I wonder if he knows it too, hence why he bowed out last time.

    I think he's a solid guy - and a nice one - but being PM is a completely different sort of job.
    You don't need to be that bright to be PM, just reasonably competent with a clear message.

    Especially if you have a bright Chancellor and Cabinet Ministers to do the day to day work in their departments
    If the Tories think that just being not too dim is adequate qualification to be leader of the UK, they don't deserve to be in power.
    The best illustration of HYUFDs point is actually Blair, hopelessly outgunned by his wife, Chancellor, head of comms and foreign secretary.
  • Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Fascinating to observe these first few days of the Sunak administration. Ok so he hasn't yet been appointed PM, but these are his policies and his program being hurriedly implemented by Hunt.

    Supposedly Mrs Brady already has 100 letters - remind me of the threshold? So he goes to her with that big grin to remove his 3rd Prime Minister. Today. Because this has to stop.

    Sunak PM
    Hunt Chancellor
    Wallace Foreign
    Mordaunt Home
    Running the government as a Quad. It's the unity ticket which enough MPs will back to smash the remaining rebels.

    If they don't remove Truss before PMQs they certainly will afterwards. I don't see how this new government will keep power for long, it's basically matricide against the will of the giffer members. But they need to stabilise the ship before an inevitable General Election in the spring.

    Rishi will try to pin all the blame on Truss despite being instrumental to the underlying political instability and economic weakness. I cant see the right let him get away with it.
    Yes, the root of the instability is from Team Rishi. They started it during the campaign in the summer, and have been using every trick in the book to undermine the PM since the day she was elected, bar a short pause to mourn the death of the Queen.
    Most of the blue on blue attacks during the leadership campaign came from Team Truss (including Team Big Dog). Nor has Rishi or his supporters (or Boris, come to that) said anything of note in the past week. Sorry, but Truss and Kwarteng dunnit themselves.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    No election please. Get your shit together first.

    At least let us see the new boundaries in 3 weeks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Does Wallace actually want the job?
    He has not ruled it out now and is the only viable unity candidate who could unite the Truss backers and the Tory moderates with a broad based Cabinet while still being acceptable to the membership
    He would be another IDS; just not bright enough. Entirely coincidental that he too was a Jock Guard.
    I have to say I have the same reservations and I wonder if he knows it too, hence why he bowed out last time.

    I think he's a solid guy - and a nice one - but being PM is a completely different sort of job.
    You don't need to be that bright to be PM, just reasonably competent with a clear message.

    Especially if you have a bright Chancellor and Cabinet Ministers to do the day to day work in their departments
    If the Tories think that just being not too dim is adequate qualification to be leader of the UK, they don't deserve to be in power.
    The best illustration of HYUFDs point is actually Blair, hopelessly outgunned by his wife, Chancellor, head of comms and foreign secretary.
    Indeed, Brown was much more intelligent than Blair, as was Robin Cook but Blair was a far better PM than Brown but someone who appointed top people to his Cabinet
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752

    DavidL said:

    AlistairM said:

    Early morning in Ukraine there have been very large number of kamikaze Iranian-made drones attacking cities including Kyiv. A large number have been shot down. There were a few cruise missiles but it was primarily a drone attack. If Russia had lots of spare missiles they would surely be sending them in. It looks like the only munitions they have supplies of currently are the drones.

    Some tweets on this today:

    AFP photographer @YasuyoshiChiba captured the moment a kamikaze drone dived on its target this morning in Kyiv.
    https://twitter.com/COUPSURE/status/1581898167129296896

    Remains of an Iranian kamikaze drone that was shot down in #Kyiv
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1581899069630205954

    And yet the Iranians are denying supplying any. Remarkable.
    This has happened with some weapins supplied to Ukraine as well. Country A makes some weapons, and gives to Country/Group B. B then sells them onto C, who sells or gives them to Ukraine or Russia.

    Sometimes this is without country A's direct knowledge; often it is.

    It's perfectly feasible that Iran is not *directly* giving them to Russia, and is instead giving them to (say) Hezbollah, who us then giving them to Russia.


    Either way, the Israelis will be paying close
    attention.
    They will be interested to observe how easy it seems to be to shoot them down and what works best, that’s for sure.

  • TOPPING said:

    As for next leader market (might be next LotO market!), it was put to me that the only person with the moral authority to be PM now is Rishi. His view has been consistent in terms of a fiscal plan and he didn't suddenly switch to the Truss view of the world like so many others.

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Quite where that leaves the Party or the country goodness only knows.

    Rishi back as Chancellor under PM Wallace (if not him, then Mordaunt). That is where it leaves the Party.
    I can't see any circumstances where we replace the Chancellor. After everything we have put the markets through there can't be another change. So Sunak as the guy who predicted all this becomes PM - as the MPs thought should have happened. Hunt is already Sunak's chancellor implementing his policies. It just needs to be made formal.

    The question is simple. Do the Tories let Father Dougal do a funeral Truss do PMQs on Wednesday? Because it will be painfully funny. Though less funny for the economy because every time she stands up and speaks the markets react badly.

    Also, think about what she said last week. She guaranteed "absolutely" that there would be no cuts to public spending. We knew at the time this to be a blatant lie as Kwarteng was to do so and KT endlessly refused to rule it out despite ruling out a cut in pensions.

    Yesterday her (Sunak's) chancellor confirmed a big cut in public spending. So she deliberately mislead the House. Which is a resignation offence. And some think she should be allowed to stay in place? She didn't intend to lie, she simply hadn't considered the question and can't think on her feet. Supposedly a red wall MP at the 22 meeting asked her about promised investment up north being pro-rated to inflation. Not only did she not respond but she did an open mouthed silent response like at her press conference.

    And some people think she should be given more time...?
  • DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    The opposite. Responsibility for the determination of IR35, and the tax liability, is moving back to the the contractor and away from the end client. It had been shifted to the end client in public sector contracts in 2017, and to all others in 2021.
    I do wonder though if Hunt might just find it easier to simply scrap the whole mini-budget. Revert to the previous statis quo and then use that as the baseline for his own changes.
    In terms of IR35 do you mean the pre 2021 status quo or the status quo 2021-22? I mean…it’s a bit hard to keep up frankly. And I’m an employment lawyer. This is one of the few bits of tax law I know (indeed understand) intimately.
    I thought Hunt might just scrap the most recently announced changes and go back to the post 2017/21 'end user decides' situation. I doubt IR35 is on his horizon at the moment one way or another but the latest 2022 changes might be a victim of his simply scrapping the mini-budget wholesale and doing his own thing in the autumn statement.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Does Wallace actually want the job?
    He has not ruled it out now and is the only viable unity candidate who could unite the Truss backers and the Tory moderates with a broad based Cabinet while still being acceptable to the membership
    He would be another IDS; just not bright enough. Entirely coincidental that he too was a Jock Guard.
    I have to say I have the same reservations and I wonder if he knows it too, hence why he bowed out last time.

    I think he's a solid guy - and a nice one - but being PM is a completely different sort of job.
    You don't need to be that bright to be PM, just reasonably competent with a clear message.

    Especially if you have a bright Chancellor and Cabinet Ministers to do the day to day work in their departments
    There’s hope for you yet then @HYUFD ;)
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807

    DougSeal said:

    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    The opposite. Responsibility for the determination of IR35, and the tax liability, is moving back to the the contractor and away from the end client. It had been shifted to the end client in public sector contracts in 2017, and to all others in 2021.
    I do wonder though if Hunt might just find it easier to simply scrap the whole mini-budget. Revert to the previous statis quo and then use that as the baseline for his own changes.
    Yes he might as well:

    45p and corporation tax already gone.
    SDLT - Go back to status quo until you have a clearer idea of the house price correction.
    19/20p - initial Sunak idea was to lower this in the pre-GE budget. Push it back, or put it on ice.
    NI Rise - the controversial one but the tax is already being paid, so people will not feel the impact. This is the trickiest one politically, but probably the easiest one fiscally to just reverse.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752

    Mr Hunt right to bring forward statement. Opportunity to calm markets and reduce debt interest pressures. Important to retain perspective. UK is solvent. Economy will recover. Inflation will fall. HMT and BoE working well together. Much more a political than an economic crisis.

    https://twitter.com/nickmacpherson2/status/1581900005740544000

    I think that this is optimistic. Yes, the immediate pressure will dissipate but the underlying weaknesses will still be there until we start to address them.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Thread:

    What will Hunt say in his emergency statement later?

    1. Almost guaranteed he'll bin the other mini-budget measures that haven't happened yet like IR35 and duty free. Temp stamp duty cut and NI have already happened.


    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1581911342780325889
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,953
    Strange to see right wing commentators telling us that the Tory party cannot afford another change of leader when it’s plain that, in reality, it’s just had one.
    https://twitter.com/SeanJonesKC/status/1581912283109728257
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,492
    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    Well the situation that has existed for the last few years in some industries (my own particularly) has meant that there is now a huge shortage of contractors to the extent that projects are being delayed because they cannot proceed for lack of expertise. They need to find another way of dealing with this because the current (pre mini-budget) situation is unsustainable and will be costing the Government revenue.
    In the good old days, it was terribly simple. People (with skills) had two options:

    (1) Be an employee, get holiday pay and sick pay, and contribute to NI that meant that if you lost your job and became unemployed, you recieved benefits.

    (2) Be a contractor. More money. No security.
    I think perhaps the original rule changes approached the problem from the wrong direction. If we want to encourage people who are really long-term employees to have contracts that reflect that, then we should make it less onerous to employ people in that way, instead of making it more onerous to hire them as contractors.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss cannot go until Tory MPs can agree a unity candidate to be crowned the new Tory leader and PM

    Does Wallace actually want the job?
    He has not ruled it out now and is the only viable unity candidate who could unite the Truss backers and the Tory moderates with a broad based Cabinet while still being acceptable to the membership
    He would be another IDS; just not bright enough. Entirely coincidental that he too was a Jock Guard.
    I have to say I have the same reservations and I wonder if he knows it too, hence why he bowed out last time.

    I think he's a solid guy - and a nice one - but being PM is a completely different sort of job.
    You don't need to be that bright to be PM, just reasonably competent with a clear message.

    Especially if you have a bright Chancellor and Cabinet Ministers to do the day to day work in their departments
    If the Tories think that just being not too dim is adequate qualification to be leader of the UK, they don't deserve to be in power.
    Gordon Brown was highly intelligent and a hopeless PM, Churchill and Reagan were great leaders but neither were super academic
    Churchill - Nobel prize for literature.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,466

    TOPPING said:

    As for next leader market (might be next LotO market!), it was put to me that the only person with the moral authority to be PM now is Rishi. His view has been consistent in terms of a fiscal plan and he didn't suddenly switch to the Truss view of the world like so many others.

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Quite where that leaves the Party or the country goodness only knows.

    Rishi back as Chancellor under PM Wallace (if not him, then Mordaunt). That is where it leaves the Party.
    I can't see any circumstances where we replace the Chancellor. After everything we have put the markets through there can't be another change. So Sunak as the guy who predicted all this becomes PM - as the MPs thought should have happened. Hunt is already Sunak's chancellor implementing his policies. It just needs to be made formal.

    The question is simple. Do the Tories let Father Dougal do a funeral Truss do PMQs on Wednesday? Because it will be painfully funny. Though less funny for the economy because every time she stands up and speaks the markets react badly.

    Also, think about what she said last week. She guaranteed "absolutely" that there would be no cuts to public spending. We knew at the time this to be a blatant lie as Kwarteng was to do so and KT endlessly refused to rule it out despite ruling out a cut in pensions.

    Yesterday her (Sunak's) chancellor confirmed a big cut in public spending. So she deliberately mislead the House. Which is a resignation offence. And some think she should be allowed to stay in place? She didn't intend to lie, she simply hadn't considered the question and can't think on her feet. Supposedly a red wall MP at the 22 meeting asked her about promised investment up north being pro-rated to inflation. Not only did she not respond but she did an open mouthed silent response like at her press conference.

    And some people think she should be given more time...?
    It would have been awkward if Rishi Sunak had already resigned his seat in parliament. Would he have stood again at a by-election he had just caused?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Hunt has the best chance at an acclamation if his plans restore economic credibility as his stock with MPs will rise. Wallace has the best chance if Hunt's plans do not, as he's still popular with members and probably MPs.

    But I'd still lean to Truss buying some time if the u turn works - to somewhat reduce the humiliation Hunt could take over early next year.

    But I'm not as confident of that as I was - the markets still seem worried, and Hunt's announcements will probably be very unpopular with the public.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,466

    I think Truss will go on Thursday.

    Voluntarily or after being told to go by Graham Brady?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,841
    Rishi is a bright guy, a squillionaire, called this whole thing almost word for word, and lost out in the leadership campaign to Truss and we know how that all turned out.

    People are now saying that he will settle for anything other than PM?

    Can't see it myself.

    And for those saying "well he did get 43%" from the membership, may I refer you to BoJo as London mayor, and then as PM. Look who he was up against.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rishi as PM however would leave the membership apoplectic.

    Fuck 'em

    They got us into this mess.

    Imagine waking up this morning worried about your mortgage or your pension. And then you see Sir Roger Gale saying “we’ll, yeah, we’d like to do something to help. But you know, the rules of the 1922 committee do have to be obeyed…”. What gets into the heads of these people.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1581900069418127360
    Who's going to deliver the leaflets?
    I think we've got way beyond worrying about that now.

    Leaflets are not nothing, but members overestimate how effective they are in my book. Canvassing in general I dont think helps as much as canvassers think.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    edited October 2022
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    darkage said:

    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ir35 is for the chop according to the infoadmercial of one of those umbrella company selling websites.

    There’s a lot of disinformation about that been going round to that effect since the mini-budget. As I’m sure you’re aware, it’s the 2017/2021 changes that are being scrapped, not IR35 itself. But that hasn’t stopped a lot of these companies pumping these out. F***ing LinkedIn is full of them.

    I can’t see Hunt abolishing it either and, if he was, there won’t have been time to pump out an infomercial, let alone based on a leak.
    I presume the thing that is for the chop is the idea that contractors themselves can declare whether they are working inside or outside IR35, rather than the employer having to make a declaration and being liable for it. I've discussed this with some tax lawyers and the conclusion was that the changes would just lead to more people declaring themselves outside of IR35, thus reducing tax generated, and then leading to more disputes and investigations which are obviously time and resource draining for HMRC.
    The opposite. Responsibility for the determination of IR35, and the tax liability, is moving back to the the contractor and away from the end client. It had been shifted to the end client in public sector contracts in 2017, and to all others in 2021.
    I do wonder though if Hunt might just find it easier to simply scrap the whole mini-budget. Revert to the previous statis quo and then use that as the baseline for his own changes.
    In terms of IR35 do you mean the pre 2021 status quo or the status quo 2021-22? I mean…it’s a bit hard to keep up frankly. And I’m an employment lawyer. This is one of the few bits of tax law I know (indeed understand) intimately.
    Do you understand the Managed Service Company legislation? I'm having a mare finding anyone with a better understanding than me (which is slightly worrying as that really is devil is in the detail)..

    As for IR35 - I've added a run down below of the 4 stages. And that address the biggest issue with IR35 which isn't the tax it's the inability to claim commute expenses for what the worker knows is a short-term piece of work. Which means as @Richard_Tyndall points out many people turn work down because the location makes accepting it impossible. Work directly with Avanade or other consultancy and you can head to a client XYZ's office without a problem, work as a contract on Avanade's XYZ project and you can't claim expenses. so even the consultancies have difficulty finding enough staff.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,456
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AlistairM said:

    Early morning in Ukraine there have been very large number of kamikaze Iranian-made drones attacking cities including Kyiv. A large number have been shot down. There were a few cruise missiles but it was primarily a drone attack. If Russia had lots of spare missiles they would surely be sending them in. It looks like the only munitions they have supplies of currently are the drones.

    Some tweets on this today:

    AFP photographer @YasuyoshiChiba captured the moment a kamikaze drone dived on its target this morning in Kyiv.
    https://twitter.com/COUPSURE/status/1581898167129296896

    Remains of an Iranian kamikaze drone that was shot down in #Kyiv
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1581899069630205954

    And yet the Iranians are denying supplying any. Remarkable.
    This has happened with some weapins supplied to Ukraine as well. Country A makes some weapons, and gives to Country/Group B. B then sells them onto C, who sells or gives them to Ukraine or Russia.

    Sometimes this is without country A's direct knowledge; often it is.

    It's perfectly feasible that Iran is not *directly* giving them to Russia, and is instead giving them to (say) Hezbollah, who us then giving them to Russia.


    Either way, the Israelis will be paying close
    attention.
    They will be interested to observe how easy it seems to be to shoot them down and what works best, that’s for sure.

    The latest Perun video goes into this a little:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCEzEVwOwS4

    Well worth a listen, IMO.

    A point he makes is that these small, cheap drones are difficult for the west (as Saudi Arabia has been finding). Expending a >$1 million missile against something that costs $30k is madness.

    That's where Germany's Gepard's might be useful. But such gun systems have fallen out of favour when compared to missiles, so western militaries have not got a large stock of them.

    But as Perun says at the endl the high-end threats from planes have not gone away. It's just that we'll need gun systems for small, cheap targets and missiles for the high-end planes. Allegedly the Ukrainians are already combining them in one battery, using the correct weapon for the target.
This discussion has been closed.