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Both Truss and Kwarteng now have net approval ratings of MINUS 44% – politicalbetting.com

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  • vinovino Posts: 169
    slade said:

    PC gain in Lampeter

    from?
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,029
    vino said:

    slade said:

    PC gain in Lampeter

    from?
    Labour. But big jump in LD vote as well.
  • What next for Dizzy Lizzy and her crusade against the nanny state?

    No need to wear a seat belt?
    No crash helmets on motorbikes?
    Scrap the safety standards for furniture so that it can catch fire more easily?

    She's an ideological nutter.

    Two years of this? Please, no.

    Liztopian nightmare.
    Smoking in pubs will be back at this rate.
    ...and adverts for Caledonian Girls.....
    And (a serious one this) imperial measures.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,550

    Brownouts / Blackouts: Can someone remind me again what those 40,000 windmills are for?

    It is a worst case scenario. Which presumably is a large high-pressure system sat over the country. When not a squeaky turbine shall stir.
    Though if a high pressure system sat over us, then our continental neighbours would be the same. That is the situation where power cuts happen, and quite possible at some point.
  • Andy_JS said:

    ping said:

    This woman is drunk on freedom.

    Sensible libertarianism is a perfectly respectable political philosophy.

    But she’s completely trashing it in the eyes of the British electorate.

    The new post-Truss consensus looks like it’ll be May/Johnson style moderately big state conservatism vs Starmerite managerialism for the next few elections, imo.

    Never heard anyone criticise freedom before in the way you're doing.
    Surely freedom entails responsibility. Otherwise it is just anarchy.
  • Hello_CloudsHello_Clouds Posts: 97
    edited October 2022

    What surprises me with Liz Truss is just how niche her version of free-market libertarianism has been revealed to be. I (and perhaps she) always assumed that it had some sort of significant following in the country at large, but hardly anyone seems to be buying into it at all. Perhaps the noisiness of its adherents made it seem more mainstream than it actually was.

    Partly wrong time. Covid showed us all as a more communitarian country where in extremis we held each others hands and worked together in the common purpose.

    Truss is completely out of sync with this.

    Still, no chance of any xmas lockdown this year.
    There was a huge amount of compulsion and the police were fining people for sitting on park benches, or for standing still exchanging a few words with other runners when out on their morning run.

    As for no chance of a Christmas lockdown...remember Cromwell's rule.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,541
    Prices being double last year is a pretty big signal. Not as big as prices being five times, of course.
  • slade said:

    vino said:

    slade said:

    PC gain in Lampeter

    from?
    Labour. But big jump in LD vote as well.
    I vaguely knew Hag Harris, whose death precipitated this by-election, and still have the CD of The Jam's 'Compact Snap' that I bought from his second-hand record shop in 1991.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,444
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    At this rate, @MaxPB 200 seat Labour majority?

    And once Truss is gone, and the Tories all rally round a sensible cabinet doing sensible things?

    Dream On, horse… you are on 200 seats and not won anything yet.
    Nah, the cabinet are fuckwits too.
    This one appointed by Truss is not great. But it’s not going to be there long is it?
    The next leader is likely to be one of those fuckwits. Probably the most fuckwitted.

    This is the Tory party after all.
    You so sure? Then you have a problem. 😏

    Who knows exactly how the Tories respond to this crisis - but they are certain to now, absolutely no one on PB thinks Truss is allowed to lead the Tories into the 2024 General Election, and to a degree the change to any new leader and cabinet will undermine Labours position, as feeling like a change for the better without voting in a general election for it.

    So Labour perhaps overestimating their position when you consider the House of Commons arithmetic and that before the mini budget pollsters actually had Truss AHEAD of Starmer as best PM and opinion poll lead average this summer, with actual,government awol and blue on blue on TV screens, was nothing special for a mid term, only on par with loser Miliband.

    The degree to which the Tories make Labour sweat and maybe fail to secure any majority depends on who the new Tory PM is, the team around them, and how well they govern over the next couple of years. 2015, 92, 70, Labours been on the end of some horrible surprise results. 64 too, a big poll lead turned to dust as the Tories rallied around someone who hadn’t even been an MP before the big fight back was launched - so Labour hubris right now this early in the next election campaign is SO stupid. Is it not?

    Will this Labour counting chickens yet to hatch, proven by our own CHB leading the way, show up in parliament and the TV studios next week, making Labour look unprofessional so turning voters off them again? that has to be a danger right now. The only public demeanour for Labour next week and onwards should be anger, with sharp, crisp, scrutiny replaying the Truss own goals in slow motion from every angle over and over. But then, that only hastens Truss’ end, and the turning of the page…
  • At this rate, @MaxPB 200 seat Labour majority?

    And once Truss is gone, and the Tories all rally round a sensible cabinet doing sensible things?

    Dream On, horse… you are on 200 seats and not won anything yet.
    At least you're not pretending any more. You're a Tory, not anything less. just be honest.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,444

    At this rate, @MaxPB 200 seat Labour majority?

    And once Truss is gone, and the Tories all rally round a sensible cabinet doing sensible things?

    Dream On, horse… you are on 200 seats and not won anything yet.
    At least you're not pretending any more. You're a Tory, not anything less. just be honest.
    I’m voting Lib Dem. As you know.

    But if I don’t get the change of government I know the country desperately needs to reset and rebalance things, becuase of Labour hubris and lazyness led by you, then you are in big trouble, I’m warning you. 😠
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,029
    Lan gain in Shropshire.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,029
    slade said:

    Lan gain in Shropshire.

    Not surprising as they won this ward in 2021.
  • vinovino Posts: 169
    slade said:

    Lan gain in Shropshire.

    from?
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,029
    vino said:

    slade said:

    Lan gain in Shropshire.

    from?
    Con
  • vinovino Posts: 169
    slade said:

    slade said:

    Lan gain in Shropshire.

    Not surprising as they won this ward in 2021.
    Sorry for asking again but having trouble with lap-top and Vote-12 site
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,474

    What surprises me with Liz Truss is just how niche her version of free-market libertarianism has been revealed to be. I (and perhaps she) always assumed that it had some sort of significant following in the country at large, but hardly anyone seems to be buying into it at all. Perhaps the noisiness of its adherents made it seem more mainstream than it actually was.

    The opposite of libertarianism is authoritarianism.
  • Andy_JS said:

    ping said:

    This woman is drunk on freedom.

    Sensible libertarianism is a perfectly respectable political philosophy.

    But she’s completely trashing it in the eyes of the British electorate.

    The new post-Truss consensus looks like it’ll be May/Johnson style moderately big state conservatism vs Starmerite managerialism for the next few elections, imo.

    Never heard anyone criticise freedom before in the way you're doing.
    Surely freedom entails responsibility. Otherwise it is just anarchy.
    Sure. Only an infantile fool says everyone should be allowed to do whatever they like.

    The only cases I can think of where the concept of freedom (as distinct from equal rights) has reared its head in British politics during my lifetime have been

    1. (a constant) - middle class rightwingers wanting to be "free" of paying so much tax for the government to spend in ways that benefit those who are less rich than themselves;

    2. (temporary) - resistance to Covid lockdown.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,029
    LD hold in Eastbourne despite big Green intervention.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677
    slade said:

    LD hold in Eastbourne despite big Green intervention.

    The Incredible Hulk was there?
  • Hello_CloudsHello_Clouds Posts: 97
    edited October 2022

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    At this rate, @MaxPB 200 seat Labour majority?

    And once Truss is gone, and the Tories all rally round a sensible cabinet doing sensible things?

    Dream On, horse… you are on 200 seats and not won anything yet.
    Nah, the cabinet are fuckwits too.
    This one appointed by Truss is not great. But it’s not going to be there long is it?
    The next leader is likely to be one of those fuckwits. Probably the most fuckwitted.

    This is the Tory party after all.
    You so sure? Then you have a problem. 😏

    Who knows exactly how the Tories respond to this crisis - but they are certain to now, absolutely no one on PB thinks Truss is allowed to lead the Tories into the 2024 General Election, and to a degree the change to any new leader and cabinet will undermine Labours position, as feeling like a change for the better without voting in a general election for it.

    So Labour perhaps overestimating their position when you consider the House of Commons arithmetic and that before the mini budget pollsters actually had Truss AHEAD of Starmer as best PM and opinion poll lead average this summer, with actual,government awol and blue on blue on TV screens, was nothing special for a mid term, only on par with loser Miliband.

    The degree to which the Tories make Labour sweat and maybe fail to secure any majority depends on who the new Tory PM is, the team around them, and how well they govern over the next couple of years. 2015, 92, 70, Labours been on the end of some horrible surprise results. 64 too, a big poll lead turned to dust as the Tories rallied around someone who hadn’t even been an MP before the big fight back was launched - so Labour hubris right now this early in the next election campaign is SO stupid. Is it not?

    Will this Labour counting chickens yet to hatch, proven by our own CHB leading the way, show up in parliament and the TV studios next week, making Labour look unprofessional so turning voters off them again? that has to be a danger right now. The only public demeanour for Labour next week and onwards should be anger, with sharp, crisp, scrutiny replaying the Truss own goals in slow motion from every angle over and over. But then, that only hastens Truss’ end, and the turning of the page…
    There's a tendency for many people to think the big thing in this week's newspapers (or this month's poll results) is the REALLY big thing, and at the same time to miss developments happening beneath the surface.

    Most money in political betting markets gets put on very close in time to the event.

    "The degree to which the Tories make Labour sweat and maybe fail to secure any majority depends on who the new Tory PM is, the team around them, and how well they govern over the next couple of years."

    And on how well the Tory election campaign manages to attack Labour at its weakest points and get its message across by outflanking. Help from the Liberal Democrats, SNP, and Greens will also be appreciated by the Tories if they can get some - see 1983 and 2010. Forget anything to do with "freedom". The government saying the so-called "opposition" are anti-freedom sounds about as stupid as saying they're anti-growth. The Tories won't fight the next election with either of those idiotic lines. If a voter's parents waved goodbye to living as tenants of landlords when they were in their 20s and now against his and his family's expectations he's having to be a tenant in the private rented sector, even now when he's pushing 35-40, with little chance of ever getting out of it unless there are big changes in society or he wins the lottery, "freedom" won't be much help - whatever "freedom" means.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,474
    "The FBI has gathered enough evidence to charge Hunter Biden with tax crimes and making a false statement to buy a gun, according to the BBC's US partner CBS News."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63166809
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,029
    Lab hold in Birmingham but big jump in Lib Dem vote.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,444
    Andy_JS said:

    What surprises me with Liz Truss is just how niche her version of free-market libertarianism has been revealed to be. I (and perhaps she) always assumed that it had some sort of significant following in the country at large, but hardly anyone seems to be buying into it at all. Perhaps the noisiness of its adherents made it seem more mainstream than it actually was.

    The opposite of libertarianism is authoritarianism.
    In answer, I refer you to the poll I posted earlier this afternoon. a new poll from the web, on womens legs.
    Around 6% said they liked fat legs...
    Around 3% said they liked skinny legs
    The other 91% said they preferred something in between.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035
    kyf_100 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Have asked Liz Truss about this point before- why don’t you encourage people to use less energy- but her answer has been- those are individual decisions to take 👇 https://twitter.com/steven_swinford/status/1578135758040403971


    So ANY blackout is going to be explicitly linked to Liz.

    She is a total liability

    Why not trust people to do the right thing? Most people are already making an effort to use less energy.
    Why not just remind them now and again via a tv advert?

    What is it the financier says in succession when he hears they're trying to buy a network of TV news stations? Something like "TV... oh yeah, I remember them. I think they still have one at my gym."

    The average person under the age of 45 now watches half the amount of TV they were watching in 2010 - and a lot of us simply don't watch it at all.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/269918/daily-tv-viewing-time-in-the-uk-by-age/
    It's not hard (or expensive) to put adverts on YouTube or Spotify.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,444

    darkage said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Have asked Liz Truss about this point before- why don’t you encourage people to use less energy- but her answer has been- those are individual decisions to take 👇 https://twitter.com/steven_swinford/status/1578135758040403971


    So ANY blackout is going to be explicitly linked to Liz.

    She is a total liability

    She really is worse than Corbyn. Labour must be loving this.
    She's removed the price signal for reducing energy this winter and now blocks any non-price signals as in her head this is the Big Bad State telling people what to do.

    So what does she believe in? Cos it aint Hayek who she is supposed to worship as he would I think be in favour of not removing the former.

    “She's removed the price signal for reducing energy this winter and now blocks any non-price signals as in her head this is the Big Bad State telling people what to do.”

    If she is minded to do this, what is she about to do to the welfare state, public spending and employment rights?
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464

    darkage said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Have asked Liz Truss about this point before- why don’t you encourage people to use less energy- but her answer has been- those are individual decisions to take 👇 https://twitter.com/steven_swinford/status/1578135758040403971


    So ANY blackout is going to be explicitly linked to Liz.

    She is a total liability

    She really is worse than Corbyn. Labour must be loving this.
    She's removed the price signal for reducing energy this winter and now blocks any non-price signals as in her head this is the Big Bad State telling people what to do.

    So what does she believe in? Cos it aint Hayek who she is supposed to worship as he would I think be in favour of not removing the former.

    “She's removed the price signal for reducing energy this winter and now blocks any non-price signals as in her head this is the Big Bad State telling people what to do.”

    If she is minded to do this, what is she about to do to the welfare state, public spending and employment rights?
    I sense a lot of this is a narrative that this is a govt that is reacting rather than taking initiative (except for KK's schoolboy errors re financial markets)... reluctance to warn about energy shortages and advise on urgent measures now feeds in to a story of a rabbit in headlights approach to policy. Its a difficult situation to get out of and if Truss loses the Daily Mail & Express she is in real trouble..
  • Andy_JS said:

    "The FBI has gathered enough evidence to charge Hunter Biden with tax crimes and making a false statement to buy a gun, according to the BBC's US partner CBS News."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63166809

    If Biden were weirdly both honest and cynical, he'd throw his son under the bus right now.

    Obviously it would hurt but the contrast with the Trump famoly would be refreshing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035
    Andy_JS said:

    Brownouts / Blackouts: Can someone remind me again what those 40,000 windmills are for?

    Wind is providing more than 50% of energy atm. But we need to built more hydro plants.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
    Some more pumped hydro would be very smart.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,456
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brownouts / Blackouts: Can someone remind me again what those 40,000 windmills are for?

    Wind is providing more than 50% of energy atm. But we need to built more hydro plants.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
    Some more pumped hydro would be very smart.
    That's a long-term solution, and is a drop in the ocean compared to the required storage - especially as it is often far away from the places the power is needed.

    Personally, if I was in government, I'd got for batteries for a short-term need, and distribute them around the country.

    According to (1), an Aussie utility spent US$115million for a 100 megawatt battery storage project that can provide 200 megawatt hours (MWh) of power. Our current demand is 21GW. We would therefore need 100 of these to provide our current usage (5 am in the morning) for an hour - a cool $10 billion (*). For one hour of supply.

    That's expensive compared to the need, but I am expecting and hoping the price of batteries to continue falling, even with the current demand and turmoil.

    (1): https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/australian-state-utility-picks-tesla-batteries-back-up-renewable-energy-2022-03-30/

    (*) Hopefully my maths is correct...
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,171
    viewcode said:

    Hi, sorry to bother you but this is one of my occasional postings. Some of you may recall the first in my Ukraine War series (see [1]). The sequel - yes, "Ukraine War II" - depicted the Russian invasion as if it was in the UK instead of Ukraine, depicting events in recognisable British locations transposed from their UKR equivalents. I can't speak for the quality of the writing but (except for one flourish referring to an incident in "Red Storm Rising") it was my best efforts at getting the areas and events right

    It was written up and sent to OGH and his sons in August and was accepted. Unfortunately the election of Truss and the death of the Monarch put it on the backburner and the recent Ukraine advances make it out of date.

    To prevent it being lost, I am making it available to you via this posting. If you want a copy of the Word document, and its accompanying concordance explaining the references, let me know and I'll PM you a copy.

    I will post this reminder once a day until next Monday, and I will host a Q&A on Tuesday in the unlikely event anybody wants to discuss it.

    Notes
    [1] https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2022/05/02/why-ukraine-was-particularly-vulnerable/


    Yes please
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Ukraine war: Biden says nuclear risk highest since 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63167947
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    At least £300 billion wiped off value of UK assets in Truss and Kwarteng's first month as government chaos leaves Britain "uninvestable" say investors. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-06/-uninvestable-uk-market-lost-300-billion-in-truss-first-month
  • There are at least two very ambitious Tory MPs standing in the way of Truss being removed and her replacement being appointed via coronation - Suella Braverman and Boris Johnson.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954

    There are at least two very ambitious Tory MPs standing in the way of Truss being removed and her replacement being appointed via coronation - Suella Braverman and Boris Johnson.

    Liz Truss is the cautionary tale that should prevent Tory MPs from letting either of them anywhere near a member vote
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,550
    ping said:

    Ukraine war: Biden says nuclear risk highest since 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63167947

    Apart from a concealed neat accident or two that seems to be a pretty obvious statement of reality. It is not Bidens fault for speaking the truth, it is Putins fault for the threat.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,550

    There are at least two very ambitious Tory MPs standing in the way of Truss being removed and her replacement being appointed via coronation - Suella Braverman and Boris Johnson.

    Braverman can at least communicate, the problem being that she communicates a nasty sub GBNews bit of Wokefinder General stuff.

    One of the few good things about Truss is that she doesn't seem to care for that sort of social authoritarianism.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,085

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brownouts / Blackouts: Can someone remind me again what those 40,000 windmills are for?

    Wind is providing more than 50% of energy atm. But we need to built more hydro plants.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
    Some more pumped hydro would be very smart.
    That's a long-term solution, and is a drop in the ocean compared to the required storage - especially as it is often far away from the places the power is needed.

    Personally, if I was in government, I'd got for batteries for a short-term need, and distribute them around the country.

    According to (1), an Aussie utility spent US$115million for a 100 megawatt battery storage project that can provide 200 megawatt hours (MWh) of power. Our current demand is 21GW. We would therefore need 100 of these to provide our current usage (5 am in the morning) for an hour - a cool $10 billion (*). For one hour of supply.

    That's expensive compared to the need, but I am expecting and hoping the price of batteries to continue falling, even with the current demand and turmoil.

    (1): https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/australian-state-utility-picks-tesla-batteries-back-up-renewable-energy-2022-03-30/

    (*) Hopefully my maths is correct...
    Isn't the sub 100 million ton global lithium reserves a bit of an issue ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    Foxy said:

    One of the few good things about Truss is that she doesn't seem to care for that sort of social authoritarianism.

    One of the really bad things about Truss is that she doesn't seem to care
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,550
    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    One of the few good things about Truss is that she doesn't seem to care for that sort of social authoritarianism.

    One of the really bad things about Truss is that she doesn't seem to care
    Sure, she appointed Braverman as Home Sec, so not innocent, but doesn't seem too bothered personally.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    It would appear that the Truss government leads the ‘anti growth coalition’ https://twitter.com/bestforbritain/status/1577989801126641664
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    One of the few good things about Truss is that she doesn't seem to care for that sort of social authoritarianism.

    One of the really bad things about Truss is that she doesn't seem to care
    Sure, she appointed Braverman as Home Sec, so not innocent, but doesn't seem too bothered personally.
    That's a general statement.

    Crashed the currency. Doesn't care.

    Pension crisis. Doesn't care.

    Energy blackouts. Doesn't care.

    Quite apart from

    Apocalyptic polling. Doesn't care.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,296
    Foxy said:

    There are at least two very ambitious Tory MPs standing in the way of Truss being removed and her replacement being appointed via coronation - Suella Braverman and Boris Johnson.

    Braverman can at least communicate, the problem being that she communicates a nasty sub GBNews bit of Wokefinder General stuff.

    One of the few good things about Truss is that she doesn't seem to care for that sort of social authoritarianism.
    She ‘doesn’t seem to care’ and yet made Braverman Home Secretary?

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954

    Trouble is that ca. 100 Conservative MPs are clearly potty, because their nominations flitted between Kemi, Suella and Liz. Short of locking them all in a cellar while the process happens, there are more than enough of them to derail any coronation process.

    That was before the consequences of their actions were revealed to them.

    Selecting another nutter is an extinction level event. Self preservation ought to be sufficient at this point
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    Incredible what you can achieve when you cease making performative acrimony with Europe your sole regional policy objective.

    https://www.ft.com/content/e7faef6b-f2a3-4622-a51b-896b7d25e45d?shareType=nongift
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,085

    There are at least two very ambitious Tory MPs standing in the way of Truss being removed and her replacement being appointed via coronation - Suella Braverman and Boris Johnson.

    The two best next PM bets look to me to be 6-4 Starmer and 50-1 Braverman
    (Prices last time I checked)
    The worst are 6-1 Sunak and 12-1 Johnson
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    The PM faces 70-strong Tory rebellion from backbenchers if polls don’t improve https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/20031766/liz-truss-tory-rebellion-polls/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,504
    Foxy said:

    ping said:

    Ukraine war: Biden says nuclear risk highest since 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63167947

    Apart from a concealed neat accident or two that seems to be a pretty obvious statement of reality. It is not Bidens fault for speaking the truth, it is Putins fault for the threat.
    Of course. But there’s an awful lot of Americans, of all political persuasions, now getting very twitchy about Putin threatening to take the war nuclear.

    Many suggestions that Ukraine should be suing for peace and conceding territory, and that it’s no longer in the US interest to keep arming the defenders.

    All baloney, in my humble opinion, but it’s easy for Americans to hold those views when the war isn’t existential to their country and region.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,456
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brownouts / Blackouts: Can someone remind me again what those 40,000 windmills are for?

    Wind is providing more than 50% of energy atm. But we need to built more hydro plants.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
    Some more pumped hydro would be very smart.
    That's a long-term solution, and is a drop in the ocean compared to the required storage - especially as it is often far away from the places the power is needed.

    Personally, if I was in government, I'd got for batteries for a short-term need, and distribute them around the country.

    According to (1), an Aussie utility spent US$115million for a 100 megawatt battery storage project that can provide 200 megawatt hours (MWh) of power. Our current demand is 21GW. We would therefore need 100 of these to provide our current usage (5 am in the morning) for an hour - a cool $10 billion (*). For one hour of supply.

    That's expensive compared to the need, but I am expecting and hoping the price of batteries to continue falling, even with the current demand and turmoil.

    (1): https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/australian-state-utility-picks-tesla-batteries-back-up-renewable-energy-2022-03-30/

    (*) Hopefully my maths is correct...
    Isn't the sub 100 million ton global lithium reserves a bit of an issue ?
    RCS or Richard Tyndall may know more, but I'm a little sceptical about all these rare-earth claims; they seem a little 'peak oil' to me.

    For two reasons:
    *) As demand goes up, new extraction techniques and new reserves will come online, even if price increases slightly.
    *) Lithium batteries are not the only type; both existing and potentially new one (e.g. sodium, magnesium) could become replacements.
    *) Other non-chemical scalable and localisable 'batteries', e.g. the hot sand system being worked on. Or even flywheels.

    Basically, I want storage solutions that are scalable and localisable. But pumped hydro could also be part of the mix.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,907
    rcs1000 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Have asked Liz Truss about this point before- why don’t you encourage people to use less energy- but her answer has been- those are individual decisions to take 👇 https://twitter.com/steven_swinford/status/1578135758040403971


    So ANY blackout is going to be explicitly linked to Liz.

    She is a total liability

    Why not trust people to do the right thing? Most people are already making an effort to use less energy.
    Why not just remind them now and again via a tv advert?

    What is it the financier says in succession when he hears they're trying to buy a network of TV news stations? Something like "TV... oh yeah, I remember them. I think they still have one at my gym."

    The average person under the age of 45 now watches half the amount of TV they were watching in 2010 - and a lot of us simply don't watch it at all.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/269918/daily-tv-viewing-time-in-the-uk-by-age/
    It's not hard (or expensive) to put adverts on YouTube or Spotify.
    True enough, though they're easy to block or avoid.

    If I were a media agency putting together a plan, I'd suggest a pervasive mix of outdoor (billboards, bus stops and the like), with a digital mix of influencer marketing and paid social (mostly insta and tiktok), if I really wanted to reach the maximum number of people. All linking back to a simple but well designed government website, probably a one pager, on how to save money/gas/electricity this winter.

    The trouble is once you head into that territory, it could easily feel like the government is advertising their own incompetence - "Avoid blackouts this winter! Take these three important steps..." -- the kind of pervasiveness necessary to make an ad campaign like this stick would be fuel for the opposition and send the government even lower in the polls.

    So that is why Truss will have blocked it. And yes, I'm aware that such a move is putting party before country. But would we expect anything less from this lot?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,474
    Scott_xP said:

    The PM faces 70-strong Tory rebellion from backbenchers if polls don’t improve https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/20031766/liz-truss-tory-rebellion-polls/

    Probably most of the 88 who voted for Rishi in the first round.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,504
    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The PM faces 70-strong Tory rebellion from backbenchers if polls don’t improve https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/20031766/liz-truss-tory-rebellion-polls/

    Probably most of the 88 who voted for Rishi in the first round.
    70 modern-day Ted Heaths, having the world’s biggest sulk.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Labour leads by 28%, tied largest lead for them that we've EVER recorded.

    Westminster Voting Intention (5 Oct.):

    Labour 52% (–)
    Conservative 24% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (–)
    Green 5% (–)
    SNP 4% (-1)
    Reform UK 3% (–)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 2 Oct.

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1578052464024162304?s=20&t=nuwHsNZUEohnPYag9NRzrA

    Nothing has changed.
    Truss has steadied the ship!
    Strong and stable!

    Strong and stable!
    I'm sure I can repurpose this with a little photoshopping


  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited October 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    "The FBI has gathered enough evidence to charge Hunter Biden with tax crimes and making a false statement to buy a gun, according to the BBC's US partner CBS News."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63166809

    Amazing how the DOJ managed to keep disciplined and leak free to not reveal that they were indicting the former President of the United States Donald Trump yet when it comes to Hunter Biden the leaks are just non-stop.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,376

    Scott_xP said:

    There are at least two very ambitious Tory MPs standing in the way of Truss being removed and her replacement being appointed via coronation - Suella Braverman and Boris Johnson.

    Liz Truss is the cautionary tale that should prevent Tory MPs from letting either of them anywhere near a member vote
    Trouble is that ca. 100 Conservative MPs are clearly potty, because their nominations flitted between Kemi, Suella and Liz. Short of locking them all in a cellar while the process happens, there are more than enough of them to derail any coronation process.
    If you look at the tories, this could all be seen as a continuation of their 'Europe' pathology. Stubbornness, purity and and a paranoid unwillingness to compromise.

    The same forces that led to Brexit are leading to electoral suicide and the ruin of the party.

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brownouts / Blackouts: Can someone remind me again what those 40,000 windmills are for?

    Wind is providing more than 50% of energy atm. But we need to built more hydro plants.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
    Some more pumped hydro would be very smart.
    There aren't many great locations for it left to exploit in Britain as I understand it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    Climate Minister Graham Stuart says the govt is not sending out a message that people should use less energy.

    Speaking to @AnnaJonesSky

    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1578274594670411776


    How long till the u-turn?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    "Energy sense is common sense"

    In 1976 the government asked Delia Smith to front the "Save It" energy campaign to help reduce public consumption

    Ministers claimed it saved the country £330m... https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1578274998334410754/video/1
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,907

    Roger said:

    Is there a reason why the French graffiti artists call him 'Poutine' as in FUCK POUTINE?

    We can't both be right....

    What makes you think the transliteration rules from Russian to French are the same as from Russian to English? Why should they be?

    Khrouchtchev (French) - Khrushchev (English)
    In German he's Chruschtschow.
    In Russian his name has only 6 letters: Хрущёв

    The reason Путин is transliterated into French with an 'e' on the end is because "putin" would sound like "putain". The 'e' is necessary so the final vowel is pronounced reasonably similarly to how it's pronounced in Russian.
    No, it's just that he's mad as a box of chips.
    With gravy on top.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    Scott_xP said:

    Incredible what you can achieve when you cease making performative acrimony with Europe your sole regional policy objective.

    https://www.ft.com/content/e7faef6b-f2a3-4622-a51b-896b7d25e45d?shareType=nongift

    A very welcome first step and a useful show of pragmatism by Ms Truss. She has taken a talking shop and turned it into something useful which could be a basis for close UK/EU cooperation post Brexit. One of her best steps since becoming PM.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Incredible what you can achieve when you cease making performative acrimony with Europe your sole regional policy objective.

    https://www.ft.com/content/e7faef6b-f2a3-4622-a51b-896b7d25e45d?shareType=nongift

    A very welcome first step and a useful show of pragmatism by Ms Truss. She has taken a talking shop and turned it into something useful which could be a basis for close UK/EU cooperation post Brexit. One of her best steps since becoming PM.
    To be fair, her main task was not to be Boris Johnson and in this she succeeded. https://twitter.com/sime0nstylites/status/1578261398353637376

    It may be superficial, it may be that her radicalised party remains deeply europhobic and insular, but it’s worth stressing just how intensely European leaders disliked, distrusted, and disrespected Johnson. They really really didn’t like him, much to their credit.
    https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1578270166919839749
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Incredible what you can achieve when you cease making performative acrimony with Europe your sole regional policy objective.

    https://www.ft.com/content/e7faef6b-f2a3-4622-a51b-896b7d25e45d?shareType=nongift

    A very welcome first step and a useful show of pragmatism by Ms Truss. She has taken a talking shop and turned it into something useful which could be a basis for close UK/EU cooperation post Brexit. One of her best steps since becoming PM.
    “One of…”? What were the others?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,907

    Andy_JS said:

    "The FBI has gathered enough evidence to charge Hunter Biden with tax crimes and making a false statement to buy a gun, according to the BBC's US partner CBS News."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63166809

    If Biden were weirdly both honest and cynical, he'd throw his son under the bus right now.

    Obviously it would hurt but the contrast with the Trump famoly would be refreshing.
    Why does he have to do anything ?
    He has no involvement in any of this. And it's not as though he did anything daft like appointing his son to a White House position, for example...

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    - "Should we all be trying to use less energy?"

    - "We are not sending that out as a message."

    This man is the CLIMATE MINISTER. @AnnaJonesSky https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1578278157299359744/video/1
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brownouts / Blackouts: Can someone remind me again what those 40,000 windmills are for?

    Wind is providing more than 50% of energy atm. But we need to built more hydro plants.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
    Some more pumped hydro would be very smart.
    There aren't many great locations for it left to exploit in Britain as I understand it.
    Am I right in thinking that those tidal lagoons, though not quite providing a 24/7 facility as hydro can, could serve in much the same way as hydro.

    And putting lagoons in a couple of well spread locations around the coast (even where today range is not so big as the Severn), could offset some of the limitations of high tide.

    Battery storage may be closer to the core of the grid, but I'm under the impression that's a cost thing rather than a usefulness thing - I've never heard talk of Dinorwig being too remote to effectively stabilise the grid. IANAE.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brownouts / Blackouts: Can someone remind me again what those 40,000 windmills are for?

    Wind is providing more than 50% of energy atm. But we need to built more hydro plants.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
    Some more pumped hydro would be very smart.
    There aren't many great locations for it left to exploit in Britain as I understand it.
    I've read that too but it seems inherently unlikely. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Etchachan
    Loch Etchachan is 3041 feet above sea level and has another loch, loch A'an 664 feet below it. It also has river access to the Dee, well below it. It really doesn't seem as if it would be that difficult to set up a Cruachan style network there.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,296
    Scott_xP said:

    "Energy sense is common sense"

    In 1976 the government asked Delia Smith to front the "Save It" energy campaign to help reduce public consumption

    Ministers claimed it saved the country £330m... https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1578274998334410754/video/1

    Not forgetting that blackouts would be in themselves very expensive.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,296
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Incredible what you can achieve when you cease making performative acrimony with Europe your sole regional policy objective.

    https://www.ft.com/content/e7faef6b-f2a3-4622-a51b-896b7d25e45d?shareType=nongift

    A very welcome first step and a useful show of pragmatism by Ms Truss. She has taken a talking shop and turned it into something useful which could be a basis for close UK/EU cooperation post Brexit. One of her best steps since becoming PM.
    A phrase about low bars and limbo dancing mice springs to mind.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,903
    edited October 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists

    Good luck in your new bromance.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Incredible what you can achieve when you cease making performative acrimony with Europe your sole regional policy objective.

    https://www.ft.com/content/e7faef6b-f2a3-4622-a51b-896b7d25e45d?shareType=nongift

    A very welcome first step and a useful show of pragmatism by Ms Truss. She has taken a talking shop and turned it into something useful which could be a basis for close UK/EU cooperation post Brexit. One of her best steps since becoming PM.
    “One of…”? What were the others?
    Long journeys and single steps come to mind.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,296
    edited October 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,296
    Scott_xP said:

    - "Should we all be trying to use less energy?"

    - "We are not sending that out as a message."

    This man is the CLIMATE MINISTER. @AnnaJonesSky https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1578278157299359744/video/1

    She doesn't need a climate minister, she needs a climb down minister.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    Scott_xP said:

    - "Should we all be trying to use less energy?"

    - "We are not sending that out as a message."

    This man is the CLIMATE MINISTER. @AnnaJonesSky https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1578278157299359744/video/1

    I think that they are scared of panic following the slightly absurd projections of rolling power cuts from the national grid yesterday. What we don't want is everyone heating their homes into the high 20s so they don't get cold when the power goes off.

    I personally thought that yesterday's comments were more than a little irresponsible. It was obvious how the media would want to pick up on such a possibility and dramatise it. Given the level of interconnectors we have now power cuts for homes (we may well ask large energy users to reduce or stop production) seems vanishingly unlikely.
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,504
    edited October 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    It’s really easy if you consider yourself to be British, to want to have the UK run by the UK government.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    TBF to “Starmer’s Labour” he has addressed the Labour antisemitism problem by first accepting it had one. The SNP has never even accepted that Anglophobia exists, just pointing to platitudes about “civic nationalism” and a few English
    members, before going back to sneering at the English as being inherently nasty racist people.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,903
    edited October 2022
    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    TBF to “Starmer’s Labour” he has addressed the Labour antisemitism problem by first accepting it had one. The SNP has never even accepted that Anglophobia exists, just pointing to platitudes about “civic nationalism” and a few English
    members, before going back to sneering at the English as being inherently nasty racist people.
    Bee, meet increasingly obsessive bonnet.

    Buzz, buzz!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,953

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
    Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.

  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
    Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.

    So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    - "Should we all be trying to use less energy?"

    - "We are not sending that out as a message."

    This man is the CLIMATE MINISTER. @AnnaJonesSky https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1578278157299359744/video/1

    She doesn't need a climate minister, she needs a climb down minister.
    Truss's libertarianism, such as it is, does seem to be of the "You can't tell me what to do, you're not my Dad"/"You can't tell me what to do, you are my Dad" type. As with Jez, there's something quite teenaged about her political poses.

    And arguments about the heating are the sort of thing teenagers love to have.

    (How much of a campaign could media types put together pro bono? "Annoy Putin. Turn the heating down." That sort of thing.)
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280
    How it is done elsewhere:

    https://easymilano.com/when-can-we-switch-on-the-heating-in-italy/

    Given a sizeable number of people live in communal apartments, this is a pretty broad regulation defining the date central heating can be switched on, how many hours a day it can run and what it can be set to. It is split by zone, from a few Alpine locations where limitations are minimal, to the South where the heating is only allowed to come on 5 hours a day for a few weeks a year.

    Also note the article is from 2020 - Italy's approach this year has been to reset the regulations as 1 degree less on the the thermostat, one hour less per day, one week less on the start and end dates (broadly, I liked the idea and it is how I've set up my heating for winter)
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    edited October 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    ping said:

    Ukraine war: Biden says nuclear risk highest since 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63167947

    Apart from a concealed neat accident or two that seems to be a pretty obvious statement of reality. It is not Bidens fault for speaking the truth, it is Putins fault for the threat.
    Of course. But there’s an awful lot of Americans, of all political persuasions, now getting very twitchy about Putin threatening to take the war nuclear.

    Many suggestions that Ukraine should be suing for peace and conceding territory, and that it’s no longer in the US interest to keep arming the defenders.

    All baloney, in my humble opinion, but it’s easy for Americans to hold those views when the war isn’t existential to their country and region.
    If you ask me the interesting thing about Biden’s statement was his message that they are trying to find out what Putin’s “off ramp” would be.

    Sure that’s been something that’s been mused since the start of the war. But saying it in those comments is likely significant IMHO because it’s signalling to the Kremlin that there is a way out if they want it. It is that sort of “nudge nudge” diplomatic message. I may be wrong, but I suspect that was deliberately put in there for that very reason .

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,296

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
    You send 59 MPs to Westminster, where they can and have frequently blocked legislation that applied to England on the grounds of its secondary impact on Scotland (e.g. the NHS).

    You get additional funding via the Barnett formula.

    You get at least one judge appointed to the highest court in the land.

    In the last 15 years you have had, without even needing to do any research, Brown, Darling, Fox, Carmichael, Moore, Alexander, and arguably Wallace as senior cabinet ministers who are Scottish (in the last one, he has at least very close links with Scotland although I'm not sure whether he considers himself Scottish).

    You have a national media which spends much time airing your grievances and a First Minister who, for whatever reason (I can't stand her) is quite popular in England and is frequently in the news.

    And that's without going into detail about Scottish influence in government, law enforcement, the military, education and management, through the many Scots in those positions through the country.

    If you think you would have that much in Europe, dream on, but please let the rest of us know what you're smoking.

    The truth, of course, is that Scottish nationalism isn't about whether the Union benefits Scotland or not, it's about whether it should rule itself. Which is a perfectly fair question, but the irony of the answer 'yes, but in the EU' would more than negate that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,296
    edited October 2022
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    It’s really easy if you consider yourself to be British, to want to have the UK run by the UK government.
    Like I say, leaps of logic. What if you don't?

    Or what if you consider yourself European and want to be run by the European Parliament?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited October 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
    Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.

    So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
    Indeed. Without the Scottish Tory MPs in 2017 TMay would not have been able to form a government even with DUP support. Thanks for propping her up guys.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,953

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
    Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.

    So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
    I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.

    If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.

    Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
    Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.

    So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
    I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.

    If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.

    Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
    All that Scottish born and identifies as half Scottish stuff is a tad blood and soil nicht wahr? What has that sort of guff got to do with specifically ‘Scottish’ influence? Did Gordon hear the pipes sounding in his head when he made funding decisions affecting Scotland, or Dave when he announced EVEL on the day after the Indy ref?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,504
    edited October 2022

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    ping said:

    Ukraine war: Biden says nuclear risk highest since 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-63167947

    Apart from a concealed neat accident or two that seems to be a pretty obvious statement of reality. It is not Bidens fault for speaking the truth, it is Putins fault for the threat.
    Of course. But there’s an awful lot of Americans, of all political persuasions, now getting very twitchy about Putin threatening to take the war nuclear.

    Many suggestions that Ukraine should be suing for peace and conceding territory, and that it’s no longer in the US interest to keep arming the defenders.

    All baloney, in my humble opinion, but it’s easy for Americans to hold those views when the war isn’t existential to their country and region.
    If you ask me the interesting thing about Biden’s statement was his message that they are trying to find out what Putin’s “off ramp” would be.

    Sure that’s been something that’s been mused since the start of the war. But saying it in those comments is likely significant IMHO because it’s signalling to the Kremlin that there is a way out if they want it. It is that sort of “nudge nudge” diplomatic message. I may be wrong, but I suspect that was deliberately put in there for that very reason .

    Yes, Biden’s been pretty good on this one, to be fair to him.

    Putin has a small window of opportunity here, but if he doesn’t take it…
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,504
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    It’s really easy if you consider yourself to be British, to want to have the UK run by the UK government.
    Like I say, leaps of logic. What if you don't?

    Or what if you consider yourself European and want to be run by the European Parliament?
    There was a refendum on that, and the people made a decision.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,953

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
    Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.

    So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
    I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.

    If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.

    Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
    All that Scottish born and identifies as half Scottish stuff is a tad blood and soil nicht wahr? What has that sort of guff got to do with specifically ‘Scottish’ influence? Did Gordon hear the pipes sounding in his head when he made funding decisions affecting Scotland, or Dave when he announced EVEL on the day after the Indy ref?
    Well, yes, I believe Brown did have Scottish concerns and interests at the forefront of his thinking throughout his time in office. It’s pretty hard to deny Brown’s commitment to Scotland.

    But to answer your question more broadly, we’d have to consider: How do you define Scottish-ness? If Gordon Brown is not Scottish, who is?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    Tory MP backs the idea of an energy saving campaign 👇 https://twitter.com/GuyOpperman/status/1578285712461266944
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    Truss can't even get tory MPs to agree on a press campaign.

    I wonder if this is the solution to their problem.

    Constitutionally, the PM is whoever can command a majority in the Commons. That doesn't mean it has to be a party leader. Caroline Lucas could be PM (in theory)

    Truss doesn't command a majority

    Rishi would.

    He could be PM tomorrow
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,715
    edited October 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
    Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.

    So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
    I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.

    If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.

    Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
    All that Scottish born and identifies as half Scottish stuff is a tad blood and soil nicht wahr? What has that sort of guff got to do with specifically ‘Scottish’ influence? Did Gordon hear the pipes sounding in his head when he made funding decisions affecting Scotland, or Dave when he announced EVEL on the day after the Indy ref?
    Well, yes, I believe Brown did have Scottish concerns and interests at the forefront of his thinking throughout his time in office. It’s pretty hard to deny Brown’s commitment to Scotland.

    But to answer your question more broadly, we’d have to consider: How do you define Scottish-ness? If Gordon Brown is not Scottish, who is?
    Mr Brown always (at least in later life) set his thinking within a Unionist context; though he might well genuinely believe that Scotland is better off in the Union, it does presuppose the conclusion.

    Am I right in recalling that Mr Brown always described himself as 'British' even when pressed, IIRC? The Scottish bit did creep out once in a US media interview? Not sure of the reasons though. There are several possibilities, including self-defence against Tory or fellow Labour pols.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,715

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
    Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.

    So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
    I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.

    If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.

    Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
    I think you need to look at the sayings and actions of recent and current Conservative leaders in their dealings with the Scottish (and Welsh, too) Government. Basically, ignore and belittle and fail to turn up to meetings.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,296
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.

    The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP

    Bad day for the separatists all round...
    SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists
    Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.

    Good luck in your new bromance.
    There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.

    The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
    Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
    Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.

    So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
    I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.

    If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.

    Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
    All that Scottish born and identifies as half Scottish stuff is a tad blood and soil nicht wahr? What has that sort of guff got to do with specifically ‘Scottish’ influence? Did Gordon hear the pipes sounding in his head when he made funding decisions affecting Scotland, or Dave when he announced EVEL on the day after the Indy ref?
    Well, yes, I believe Brown did have Scottish concerns and interests at the forefront of his thinking throughout his time in office. It’s pretty hard to deny Brown’s commitment to Scotland.

    But to answer your question more broadly, we’d have to consider: How do you define Scottish-ness? If Gordon Brown is not Scottish, who is?
    Mr Brown always (at least in later life) set his thinking within a Unionist context; though he might well genuinely believe that Scotland is better off in the Union, it does presuppose the conclusion.

    Am I right in recalling that Mr Brown always described himself as 'British' even when pressed, IIRC? The Scottish bit did creep out once in a US media interview? Not sure of the reasons though. There are several possibilities, including self-defence against Tory or fellow Labour pols.
    No.

    https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/abs/10.3366/scot.2003.0038?journalCode=scot
    https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/opinions/book-review-my-scotland-our-britain-future-worth-sharing-gordon-brown

    In 2006 however he went around emphasising his Britishness largely because he was unnerved at the thought he might, as a Scottish MP, be rejected by the English electorate as overall PM.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,743
    Good morning, everyone.

    If you think that's bad, no British Prime Minister has ever had a meeting with the leader of the English Parliament. Bloody Anglophobic swine.
This discussion has been closed.