What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.
The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP
Bad day for the separatists all round...
SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.
Good luck in your new bromance.
There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.
The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.
So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.
If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.
Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
All that Scottish born and identifies as half Scottish stuff is a tad blood and soil nicht wahr? What has that sort of guff got to do with specifically ‘Scottish’ influence? Did Gordon hear the pipes sounding in his head when he made funding decisions affecting Scotland, or Dave when he announced EVEL on the day after the Indy ref?
Well, yes, I believe Brown did have Scottish concerns and interests at the forefront of his thinking throughout his time in office. It’s pretty hard to deny Brown’s commitment to Scotland.
But to answer your question more broadly, we’d have to consider: How do you define Scottish-ness? If Gordon Brown is not Scottish, who is?
Mr Brown always (at least in later life) set his thinking within a Unionist context; though he might well genuinely believe that Scotland is better off in the Union, it does presuppose the conclusion.
Am I right in recalling that Mr Brown always described himself as 'British' even when pressed, IIRC? The Scottish bit did creep out once in a US media interview? Not sure of the reasons though. There are several possibilities, including self-defence against Tory or fellow Labour pols.
Well, that’s a classic no true Scotsman argument. If only nationalists count, then it’s no surprise that Scotland hasn’t had so much influence in Westminster. But that’s clearly presupposing the conclusion.
I am no fan of Brown. I don’t agree with many of his policies. But I believe he thought he was doing what he thought was best for the UK and for Scotland.
What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.
The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP
Bad day for the separatists all round...
SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.
Good luck in your new bromance.
There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.
The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.
So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.
If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.
Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
I think you need to look at the sayings and actions of recent and current Conservative leaders in their dealings with the Scottish (and Welsh, too) Government. Basically, ignore and belittle and fail to turn up to meetings.
Even an adversarial relationship can be an influential one. Yes, the Tories have been hostile to the Scottish Government, but that doesn’t mean Sturgeon was without influence. Hers was an important voice, for ex., throughout the pandemic.
What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.
The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP
Bad day for the separatists all round...
SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.
Good luck in your new bromance.
There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.
The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.
So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.
If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.
Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
All that Scottish born and identifies as half Scottish stuff is a tad blood and soil nicht wahr? What has that sort of guff got to do with specifically ‘Scottish’ influence? Did Gordon hear the pipes sounding in his head when he made funding decisions affecting Scotland, or Dave when he announced EVEL on the day after the Indy ref?
Well, yes, I believe Brown did have Scottish concerns and interests at the forefront of his thinking throughout his time in office. It’s pretty hard to deny Brown’s commitment to Scotland.
But to answer your question more broadly, we’d have to consider: How do you define Scottish-ness? If Gordon Brown is not Scottish, who is?
Mr Brown always (at least in later life) set his thinking within a Unionist context; though he might well genuinely believe that Scotland is better off in the Union, it does presuppose the conclusion.
Am I right in recalling that Mr Brown always described himself as 'British' even when pressed, IIRC? The Scottish bit did creep out once in a US media interview? Not sure of the reasons though. There are several possibilities, including self-defence against Tory or fellow Labour pols.
In 2006 however he went around emphasising his Britishness largely because he was unnerved at the thought he might, as a Scottish MP, be rejected by the English electorate as overall PM.
Thanks.
The second ref is precisely why I said 'in later life' -he did not want to be reminded of what he was like as a student and university rector!
Stdrictly, even that book review doesn't show if GB called himself 'Scottish and British' which would be unexceptionable - at least in my view - and more accurate in contrast to the behaviour he showed in 2006 (as you say, thanks for pinning down my memory and confirming the likely reason) and later.
And BTW the reviewer makes a particularly sharp point, amongst others, when he remarks "There is no mention of the contribution of Irish Catholics or later incomers to the making of Scotland or Scottish Labour in particular". Especially as a lot of this "Protestant values" stuff would be associated with the Unionist nativism of the Scottish Tories.
What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.
The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP
Bad day for the separatists all round...
SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.
Good luck in your new bromance.
There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.
The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.
So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.
If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.
Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
All that Scottish born and identifies as half Scottish stuff is a tad blood and soil nicht wahr? What has that sort of guff got to do with specifically ‘Scottish’ influence? Did Gordon hear the pipes sounding in his head when he made funding decisions affecting Scotland, or Dave when he announced EVEL on the day after the Indy ref?
Well, yes, I believe Brown did have Scottish concerns and interests at the forefront of his thinking throughout his time in office. It’s pretty hard to deny Brown’s commitment to Scotland.
But to answer your question more broadly, we’d have to consider: How do you define Scottish-ness? If Gordon Brown is not Scottish, who is?
Mr Brown always (at least in later life) set his thinking within a Unionist context; though he might well genuinely believe that Scotland is better off in the Union, it does presuppose the conclusion.
Am I right in recalling that Mr Brown always described himself as 'British' even when pressed, IIRC? The Scottish bit did creep out once in a US media interview? Not sure of the reasons though. There are several possibilities, including self-defence against Tory or fellow Labour pols.
Well, that’s a classic no true Scotsman argument. If only nationalists count, then it’s no surprise that Scotland hasn’t had so much influence in Westminster. But that’s clearly presupposing the conclusion.
I am no fan of Brown. I don’t agree with many of his policies. But I believe he thought he was doing what he thought was best for the UK and for Scotland.
It was to answer your question about GB - and try and pin down how he defined himself (not how I define him).
The point about his behaviour was that it didn't ring true to many - and was at least slightly damaging to him, precvisely in emphasising his unionist credentials in advance, and preempting his comments. I for one didn't think it made sense. Scottish and British would have been fine (and accurately reflecting his philosophy much more).
What would be really amusing to watch is if they continue along their current Kamikaze path, get existentially beaten in the next election, and then we rejoin the EU.
The implosion of the Tory party also scuppers the SNP
Bad day for the separatists all round...
SNP: we want to rejoin the EU = separatists Starmer Lab: ‘We’re not going back to the EU, to the single market, to the customs union or freedom of movement’ = outward looking, progressive internationalists.
Good luck in your new bromance.
There is a certain delicious irony in the Scexit/Brexit debate that those who wanted to leave the EU so the UK could manage its own affairs mostly (not all) would deny the same option to Scotland, while most (not all) of those Scots who agitate to leave the UK, a Union where they have a great deal of influence and make up a substantial proportion of, are desirous of joining the EU, where they would be a negligible, detached component and have no influence whatsoever.
The convolutions of logic both sides get up to justify these contradictory positions are absolutely hilarious.
Can you give some examples of that great deal of influence?
Gordon Brown, Scottish, representing a Scottish constituency, was PM. He succeeded the Scottish-born Tony Blair.
So, 12 years ago at the most recent. Anything closer to the present day?
I didn’t say that was the only or the most recent example. You asked for some examples, not a detailed list.
If you want more recently, David Cameron identified as half-Scottish. Unfortunately, the rise of the SNP has damaged Scotland’s influence in the Commons. Where once Tories, Labour and LibDems had many senior MPs from Scotland, now they have few, although we did have a Scottish LibDem leader recently.
Of course, Scotland also has an influence in other ways. The Scottish Parliament, as well as having considerable control over Scotland, asserts an influence over national politics, as through the COVID-19 pandemic.
I think you need to look at the sayings and actions of recent and current Conservative leaders in their dealings with the Scottish (and Welsh, too) Government. Basically, ignore and belittle and fail to turn up to meetings.
Even an adversarial relationship can be an influential one. Yes, the Tories have been hostile to the Scottish Government, but that doesn’t mean Sturgeon was without influence. Hers was an important voice, for ex., throughout the pandemic.
Didn't get that sense, but you may know better than me. The media narrative was one of telentless attacks from HMG and the Conservatives. "Being different for the sake of it." For instance, when Mr Johnson flip-flopped over the Christmas and new year holidays.
There aren't many great locations for it left to exploit in Britain as I understand it.
I've read that too but it seems inherently unlikely. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Etchachan Loch Etchachan is 3041 feet above sea level and has another loch, loch A'an 664 feet below it. It also has river access to the Dee, well below it. It really doesn't seem as if it would be that difficult to set up a Cruachan style network there.
In the centre of the Cairngorms National Park? Loch Etchachan is a unique environment and has every designation going. I do hope that wasn't a serious suggestion. I know only people like me go there (camped on the shore in winter once!) but FGS.
Anyway, it isn't that deep and it is frozen for about 5 months of the year.
I can think of two lochs that would be suitable for such a scheme but again, they have every designation going and I'm not going to mention them in case someone gets a stupid idea. We've already trashed Glen Etive for effectively b*gger all.
If we must mess with designated sites, at least get some power out of them. Tidal!
Comments
I am no fan of Brown. I don’t agree with many of his policies. But I believe he thought he was doing what he thought was best for the UK and for Scotland.
The second ref is precisely why I said 'in later life' -he did not want to be reminded of what he was like as a student and university rector!
Stdrictly, even that book review doesn't show if GB called himself 'Scottish and British' which would be unexceptionable - at least in my view - and more accurate in contrast to the behaviour he showed in 2006 (as you say, thanks for pinning down my memory and confirming the likely reason) and later.
And BTW the reviewer makes a particularly sharp point, amongst others, when he remarks "There is no mention of the contribution of Irish Catholics or later incomers to the making of Scotland or Scottish Labour in particular". Especially as a lot of this "Protestant values" stuff would be associated with the Unionist nativism of the Scottish Tories.
The point about his behaviour was that it didn't ring true to many - and was at least slightly damaging to him, precvisely in emphasising his unionist credentials in advance, and preempting his comments. I for one didn't think it made sense. Scottish and British would have been fine (and accurately reflecting his philosophy much more).
Anyway, it isn't that deep and it is frozen for about 5 months of the year.
I can think of two lochs that would be suitable for such a scheme but again, they have every designation going and I'm not going to mention them in case someone gets a stupid idea. We've already trashed Glen Etive for effectively b*gger all.
If we must mess with designated sites, at least get some power out of them. Tidal!