Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Both Truss and Kwarteng now have net approval ratings of MINUS 44% – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 9 in General
Both Truss and Kwarteng now have net approval ratings of MINUS 44% – politicalbetting.com

The latest from @RedfieldWilton All Net Approval Ratings(5 October):Keir Starmer: +7% (+1)Liz Truss: -44% (-11)Kwasi Kwarteng: -44% (-14)

Read the full story here

«1345678

Comments

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075
    No way back from this
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,410
    Circling the drain.
    What happens now?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075

    Circling the drain.
    What happens now?

    The conservative mps need to agree a single candidate and throw Truss out
  • eek said:

    The biggest hinder to growth is Brexit, which Keir Starmer and Labour support.

    Yes, he’s now got an opportunity to campaign on a return to the single market. The case is overwhelming.
    He’s too timid. He’s frightened of his own shadow.
    It's a risk too far and would give something for the tories to campaign against.

    Best to place it to one side and not risk losing a very winnable election.

    No point in winning an election if you are just going to persist with your opponent’s worst polices.
    Absolutely agreed, which is why the Tories were right to choose Truss over Gordon Sunak raising NI.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,451
    They are truly dreadful figures.
    These things tend to take on a momentum of their own. All bad news is the government's fault (and there'll be plenty of it). Good news ignored.
    Happened to Major and Brown.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,819
    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,453

    Is Elon Musk heading for financial trouble due to the war in Ukraine or something?

    @KyivPost
    The @elonmusk situation is clearly getting out of hand, and it seems like pride and vanity play a behemoth role in his attempt to pose as an expert on #Ukraine.

    Just stop, Elon. It's ok to admit that you overdid smth. Just stop.

    ------

    @elonmusk replying to @KyivPost
    I’m a big fan of Ukraine, but not of WW3


    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1578041621093949440

    What proportion of Twitter users are actually sitting in a windowless office in St Peterburg? Russia's defeat could seriously dent Twitter's user numbers.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,451
    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Crumbs. Those are some serious (alleged) crimes.
    Which require jail time.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,819
    dixiedean said:

    They are truly dreadful figures.
    These things tend to take on a momentum of their own. All bad news is the government's fault (and there'll be plenty of it). Good news ignored.
    Happened to Major and Brown.

    Also, hard to fix as changing leader may not resolve the issue.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,144
    Interesting that Labour referred to it as a Kamikaze budget some days after I referred to the Chancellor as Kami-Kwasi
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 637
    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Holy moly. Aside from just 'what the hell?!' - I wonder if this was under Dacre, Greig or Verity.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,939
    edited October 6
    Someone thought it was worth stabbing 4 people for a bike on Bishopsgate during this mornings rush hour. But if you listen to @MayorofLondon you’d think climate change is London’s number one issue at the moment

    https://twitter.com/DDDaughters/status/1578022800836939776?s=20&t=iTxC0ZgdDvxQmMv61D08xg

    "The good news is, it's not a terror attack. And another piece of good news is the three victims of the stabbing are not in life-threatening situations, thank God. But it's just a reminder of the dangers of carrying the knife." - Sadiq Khan

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/06/bishopsgate-incident-multiple-people-injured-suspected-stabbing/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    You don't come back from this. But alternatives are unpalatable.

    They're pretty screwed. Not about damage limitation and hoping the public shown uncharacteristic gratitude if the economy picks up, despite the horrendous winter we're about to experience.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,819
    ohnotnow said:

    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Holy moly. Aside from just 'what the hell?!' - I wonder if this was under Dacre, Greig or Verity.
    All of them given that the original tweet lists

    Daily Mail
    Mail on Sunday
    Mail online
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,410

    Circling the drain.
    What happens now?

    The conservative mps need to agree a single candidate and throw Truss out
    I can't see that helping. I don't think they can coalesce around a single candidate and even if they did wouldn't the clamour for an election become unbearable? How many times can you change leader and claim a mandate?
    I think either they limp on with Truss in office but not in power, hoping something turns up, or we are heading towards a general election before next summer.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,922

    Someone thought it was worth stabbing 4 people for a bike on Bishopsgate during this mornings rush hour. But if you listen to @MayorofLondon you’d think climate change is London’s number one issue at the moment

    https://twitter.com/DDDaughters/status/1578022800836939776?s=20&t=iTxC0ZgdDvxQmMv61D08xg

    "The good news is, it's not a terror attack. And another piece of good news is the three victims of the stabbing are not in life-threatening situations, thank God. But it's just a reminder of the dangers of carrying the knife." - Sadiq Khan

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/06/bishopsgate-incident-multiple-people-injured-suspected-stabbing/

    Climate change clearly a bigger problem than knife crime for Londoners. In the short term its cost of living people are most worried about. Most Londoners find it a very safe city.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 637
    eek said:

    ohnotnow said:

    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Holy moly. Aside from just 'what the hell?!' - I wonder if this was under Dacre, Greig or Verity.
    All of them given that the original tweet lists

    Daily Mail
    Mail on Sunday
    Mail online
    Wow. Just... wow.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,453
    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Wow.

    That's a pretty serious set of allegations. If subsequent investigation bears them out, then one might expect some individuals are likely to see the inside of a jail.
  • Interesting that Labour referred to it as a Kamikaze budget some days after I referred to the Chancellor as Kami-Kwasi

    Politically it's been a Kwasi effective mini budget.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,939
    edited October 6
    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Interesting that if we look back all the way back to Operation Motorman, Mirror / NOTW / Mail were all up to naughty stuff (well all the papers were including the holy than thou ones, but those 3 pumped lots of money into it). However, after the plod called all the editors in, the Mail were one of the papers who changed the way they operated, while the Mirror / NOTW just carried on and hence when phone hacking hit, the Mail weren't implicated.

    Interesting that now alleged they have more recently gone down that path of the tabloids worst behaviour.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,912

    Someone thought it was worth stabbing 4 people for a bike on Bishopsgate during this mornings rush hour. But if you listen to @MayorofLondon you’d think climate change is London’s number one issue at the moment

    https://twitter.com/DDDaughters/status/1578022800836939776?s=20&t=iTxC0ZgdDvxQmMv61D08xg

    "The good news is, it's not a terror attack. And another piece of good news is the three victims of the stabbing are not in life-threatening situations, thank God. But it's just a reminder of the dangers of carrying the knife." - Sadiq Khan

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/06/bishopsgate-incident-multiple-people-injured-suspected-stabbing/

    Err, there was only one person carrying a knife, Mr Khan, and that was the bike thief.

    When the crime moves from the gangland areas and the tourist areas, to the City, he’s got a big problem on his hands.
  • Hello_CloudsHello_Clouds Posts: 97
    edited October 6
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    They are truly dreadful figures.
    These things tend to take on a momentum of their own. All bad news is the government's fault (and there'll be plenty of it). Good news ignored.
    Happened to Major and Brown.

    Also, hard to fix as changing leader may not resolve the issue.
    War with Russia would fix it. Then once the strategic nukes started flying - which would be within about a week, max - there'd be no country left and survivors wouldn't be answering pollsters or voting. There's practically no opposition on the pro-Zelensky foreign policy.

    The kind of person who flies the Ukrainian flag from their house is the type who would have voted for Trump. Practically every property I see flying the blue and yellow right now is also flying the Butcher's Apron. We've got all Trump and no Hillary Clinton. What a wonderful time to be alive...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,204
    darkage said:

    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    That is fair enough.
    I have a DB pension but decided to change to paying in to a SIPP going forward. This is because I worked out that there is a high risk that the DB pension will never see the light of day, as it will be subject to the type of interference suggested above at some point in the next 20-30 years.
    A lot of people stay in jobs for there for their whole careers because they are relying on the pension materialising but it is not a safe assumption, particularly in the public sector.

    I think the next government or the one after will realise the DB pensions in the state and private sector are just not affordable so either people who have them work longer or take a living standards cut. The WASPI issue has set enough of a precedent to give the state cover to make it work. The future of the nation rests on a politicians being brave enough and voters under 60 giving them enough protection at the ballot box to allow implementation.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 7,876

    Circling the drain.
    What happens now?

    The conservative mps need to agree a single candidate and throw Truss out
    How do they do that, though?

    It only takes a handful of nutters to nominate a fellow nutter, and they might well win with the party at large.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited October 6
    Labour leads by 28%, tied largest lead for them that we've EVER recorded.

    Westminster Voting Intention (5 Oct.):

    Labour 52% (–)
    Conservative 24% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (–)
    Green 5% (–)
    SNP 4% (-1)
    Reform UK 3% (–)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 2 Oct.

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1578052464024162304?s=20&t=nuwHsNZUEohnPYag9NRzrA
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    Yes, yes, never link to Guido etc, but I do like this sort of meaningless trivia. My name was briefly very popular in the 80s for no reason I can discern, but before dropping back out of fashion.

    This morning the ONS 2021 baby names data was published. Guido’s been enjoying the annual tradition of seeing whether any politicians have inspired parents so much as to influence their birth certificate decisions. The main bad news comes for Sir Keir, whose name is now facing extinction levels. In 2019, there were 15 baby Keirs; in 2020 that fell to nine; in 2021, a year into his leadership of The Labour Party, that figure now stands at just six – a 60% drop. Will Labour’s poll lead this year do anything to improve the only statistic dropping quicker than the pound?

    Meanwhile, Boris managed to cling onto popularity, with the number of babies named after the then-PM sticking to its 2019 figure of 39 – the 815th most popular boys’ name out of over 4,600. Rishi’s numbers, improved by forcing everyone to stay at home for three months while paying their wages, are remarkable. They leaped by 77% between 2019 and 2020, and now hold steady at 41 uses in 2021. It seems many Britons, if not Tory members, were #Ready4Rishi…


    https://order-order.com/2022/10/06/keir-facing-extinction/
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,546

    Circling the drain.
    What happens now?

    The conservative mps need to agree a single candidate and throw Truss out
    I can't see that helping. I don't think they can coalesce around a single candidate and even if they did wouldn't the clamour for an election become unbearable? How many times can you change leader and claim a mandate?
    I think either they limp on with Truss in office but not in power, hoping something turns up, or we are heading towards a general election before next summer.
    I think they'll limp on (although 'limp' probably isn't quite the right word, as it doesn't capture the ferocity of the civil war and blame-mongering which will accompany the doleful spectacle). I just don't see any mechanism for them to do otherwise, or any political possibility of them agreeing on anything other than being miserable about the situation. At best Liz Truss might try to bring back some of the saner ex-ministers to attempt to limit the damage, but the trouble is that the saner ex-ministers are completely hated by the loons who seem to be her remaining supporters.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,121

    Circling the drain.
    What happens now?

    The conservative mps need to agree a single candidate and throw Truss out
    I can't see that helping. I don't think they can coalesce around a single candidate and even if they did wouldn't the clamour for an election become unbearable? How many times can you change leader and claim a mandate?
    I think either they limp on with Truss in office but not in power, hoping something turns up, or we are heading towards a general election before next summer.
    The only remedy for them not being able to agree on a candidate is time. As the weeks march on and things become more and more desperate, it will start to strike home to more and more of them that they need to act.

    Of course by then the damage may already have been done.

    There is however a problem with locating a compromise candidate as you say. The Boris-ites won’t want Rishi, the ERG won’t want May, a large chunk of the party don’t want Boris, and Wallace doesn’t want the job.

    Someone will have to compromise somewhere.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,939
    edited October 6
    Sandpit said:

    Someone thought it was worth stabbing 4 people for a bike on Bishopsgate during this mornings rush hour. But if you listen to @MayorofLondon you’d think climate change is London’s number one issue at the moment

    https://twitter.com/DDDaughters/status/1578022800836939776?s=20&t=iTxC0ZgdDvxQmMv61D08xg

    "The good news is, it's not a terror attack. And another piece of good news is the three victims of the stabbing are not in life-threatening situations, thank God. But it's just a reminder of the dangers of carrying the knife." - Sadiq Khan

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/06/bishopsgate-incident-multiple-people-injured-suspected-stabbing/

    Err, there was only one person carrying a knife, Mr Khan, and that was the bike thief.

    When the crime moves from the gangland areas and the tourist areas, to the City, he’s got a big problem on his hands.
    Well its was very dangerous for the thief, without the knife the mob might have detained him or worse still inflicted some pain.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644
    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!
    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Lab majority 2.4 NOM 2.2. Inexplicably.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,673
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Wow.

    That's a pretty serious set of allegations. If subsequent investigation bears them out, then one might expect some individuals are likely to see the inside of a jail.
    Hopefully we’ll see the end of the paper.
  • eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    They are truly dreadful figures.
    These things tend to take on a momentum of their own. All bad news is the government's fault (and there'll be plenty of it). Good news ignored.
    Happened to Major and Brown.

    Also, hard to fix as changing leader may not resolve the issue.
    War with Russia would fix it. Then once the strategic nukes started flying - which would be within about a week, max - there'd be no country left and survivors wouldn't be answering pollsters or voting. There's practically no opposition on the pro-Zelensky foreign policy.

    The kind of person who flies the Ukrainian flag from their house is the type who would have voted for Trump. Practically every property I see flying the blue and yellow right now is also flying the Butcher's Apron. We've got all Trump and no Hillary Clinton. What a wonderful time to be alive...
    Thank you Dynamo for that considered opinion. Guessing you haven't been mobilised yet then?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,203
    edited October 6

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    They are truly dreadful figures.
    These things tend to take on a momentum of their own. All bad news is the government's fault (and there'll be plenty of it). Good news ignored.
    Happened to Major and Brown.

    Also, hard to fix as changing leader may not resolve the issue.
    War with Russia would fix it. Then once the strategic nukes started flying - which would be within about a week, max - there'd be no country left and survivors wouldn't be answering pollsters or voting. There's practically no opposition on the pro-Zelensky foreign policy.

    The kind of person who flies the Ukrainian flag from their house is the type who would have voted for Trump. Practically every property I see flying the blue and yellow right now is also flying the Butcher's Apron. We've got all Trump and no Hillary Clinton. What a wonderful time to be alive...
    Finding the pro-imperialist vote is really fucking hard these days. Or haven’t you noticed?

    Had a fun one, yesterday - the local Corbynite chap with a table in the street. Palestine etc. He also had a poster up about the evils of slavery. And one about Begum.

    He was spitting angry when I pointed out that Begum was, by her own words, a slaver.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,607

    Interesting that Labour referred to it as a Kamikaze budget some days after I referred to the Chancellor as Kami-Kwasi

    The joke makes itself.

    I believe I may have even coined kamikwasi or kamiwazi? before you, but I can never figure out how search works on PB.
  • eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    They are truly dreadful figures.
    These things tend to take on a momentum of their own. All bad news is the government's fault (and there'll be plenty of it). Good news ignored.
    Happened to Major and Brown.

    Also, hard to fix as changing leader may not resolve the issue.
    War with Russia would fix it. Then once the strategic nukes started flying - which would be within about a week, max - there'd be no country left and survivors wouldn't be answering pollsters or voting. There's practically no opposition on the pro-Zelensky foreign policy.

    The kind of person who flies the Ukrainian flag from their house is the type who would have voted for Trump. Practically every property I see flying the blue and yellow right now is also flying the Butcher's Apron. We've got all Trump and no Hillary Clinton. What a wonderful time to be alive...
    We haven't even got a Joe Biden. Could you imagine Sir Keir Starmer telling Liz Truss she's the worst f*cking PM in British history? He wouldn't have the guts.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,204

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    Another U turn from Truss today.

    Macron is a friend 🧅 ❤️
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,132
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Wow.

    That's a pretty serious set of allegations. If subsequent investigation bears them out, then one might expect some individuals are likely to see the inside of a jail.
    Listening devices in people’s homes is a big deal, as is the use of corrupt police officers to obtain sensitive information.

    If they can prove the links to the Mail for any of it, then surely prosecutions must follow?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,203
    On topic - I don’t see much let up for this in the near or even medium term future.

    Rod “swing back” Crosby would be running the numbers. But I think it is 90% a Labour majority now.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075

    Circling the drain.
    What happens now?

    The conservative mps need to agree a single candidate and throw Truss out
    How do they do that, though?

    It only takes a handful of nutters to nominate a fellow nutter, and they might well win with the party at large.
    No idea but they deserve the poll defeat that is coming in a big way
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    I cannot take seriously any genuine comment which uses the term Butcher's Apron in an effort to be edgy.

    On the flying of flags, so few people fly them anyway (as opposed to somewhere like the USA) that it is probably hard to draw any conclusions from it.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    IshmaelZ said:

    Labour leads by 28%, tied largest lead for them that we've EVER recorded.

    Westminster Voting Intention (5 Oct.):

    Labour 52% (–)
    Conservative 24% (–)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (–)
    Green 5% (–)
    SNP 4% (-1)
    Reform UK 3% (–)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 2 Oct.

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1578052464024162304?s=20&t=nuwHsNZUEohnPYag9NRzrA

    Nothing has changed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465

    Another U turn from Truss today.

    Macron is a friend 🧅 ❤️

    He's a sometimes awkward and frustrating for the UK friend. In other words, a French President.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,607
    There’s a lot of flag flying in the US, certainly outside of NYC.

    If you see a Ukraine flag, it’s safe to go and borrow some sugar.

    If you see a “Let’s Go Brandon” placard, avoid like the plague.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,912
    Dammit, it seems that I missed the winding down of the Dynamo last week.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,922

    Circling the drain.
    What happens now?

    The conservative mps need to agree a single candidate and throw Truss out
    I can't see that helping. I don't think they can coalesce around a single candidate and even if they did wouldn't the clamour for an election become unbearable? How many times can you change leader and claim a mandate?
    I think either they limp on with Truss in office but not in power, hoping something turns up, or we are heading towards a general election before next summer.
    How long does someone like Truss limp on in office but not power? Not til 2024. So lay the 2024 or later GE as you win either way around and can get some lovely odds.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 17,697
    kle4 said:

    Yes, yes, never link to Guido etc, but I do like this sort of meaningless trivia. My name was briefly very popular in the 80s for no reason I can discern, but before dropping back out of fashion.

    This morning the ONS 2021 baby names data was published. Guido’s been enjoying the annual tradition of seeing whether any politicians have inspired parents so much as to influence their birth certificate decisions. The main bad news comes for Sir Keir, whose name is now facing extinction levels. In 2019, there were 15 baby Keirs; in 2020 that fell to nine; in 2021, a year into his leadership of The Labour Party, that figure now stands at just six – a 60% drop. Will Labour’s poll lead this year do anything to improve the only statistic dropping quicker than the pound?

    Meanwhile, Boris managed to cling onto popularity, with the number of babies named after the then-PM sticking to its 2019 figure of 39 – the 815th most popular boys’ name out of over 4,600. Rishi’s numbers, improved by forcing everyone to stay at home for three months while paying their wages, are remarkable. They leaped by 77% between 2019 and 2020, and now hold steady at 41 uses in 2021. It seems many Britons, if not Tory members, were #Ready4Rishi…


    https://order-order.com/2022/10/06/keir-facing-extinction/

    Volodymyr should see a big jump in the next set of data.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    kle4 said:

    Another U turn from Truss today.

    Macron is a friend 🧅 ❤️

    He's a sometimes awkward and frustrating for the UK friend. In other words, a French President.
    Of course. He’s French 🤷‍♀️
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,203
    edited October 6

    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Interesting that if we look back all the way back to Operation Motorman, Mirror / NOTW / Mail were all up to naughty stuff (well all the papers were including the holy than thou ones, but those 3 pumped lots of money into it). However, after the plod called all the editors in, the Mail were one of the papers who changed the way they operated, while the Mirror / NOTW just carried on and hence when phone hacking hit, the Mail weren't implicated.

    Interesting that now alleged they have more recently gone down that path of the tabloids worst behaviour.
    All of that was standard operating procedure in Fleet Street - they seemed to take the view that being the Fourth Estate put them above the law. To the point that nearly anything went for an investigation. On Guardian hack was proud of using the phone “hack” - it didn’t seem to occur to him that the target wasn’t the issue, but the overall legality.

    One reason the phone hacking thing faded away was that too many people were coming into the frame - the police selling background checks to private detectives and phone hacking and email interception was extremely common, in and out of the press. I have knowledge of a case involving a sports club - a paranoid nutter who hired a private eye to dig on everyone on the committee, then tried blackmailing people. The stuff he got access to for a few hundred pounds was staggering.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,204

    There’s a lot of flag flying in the US, certainly outside of NYC.

    If you see a Ukraine flag, it’s safe to go and borrow some sugar.

    If you see a “Let’s Go Brandon” placard, avoid like the plague.

    What does "Let's Go Brandon" relate to? It seems like a really odd phrase to have on a flag or placard.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465

    Time to close down the Daily Mail.
    It’s a complete cancer on British public life, is run by sociopaths, and owned by tax dodgers.

    Next step running the British state?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    They are truly dreadful figures.
    These things tend to take on a momentum of their own. All bad news is the government's fault (and there'll be plenty of it). Good news ignored.
    Happened to Major and Brown.

    Also, hard to fix as changing leader may not resolve the issue.
    War with Russia would fix it. Then once the strategic nukes started flying - which would be within about a week, max - there'd be no country left and survivors wouldn't be answering pollsters or voting. There's practically no opposition on the pro-Zelensky foreign policy.

    The kind of person who flies the Ukrainian flag from their house is the type who would have voted for Trump. Practically every property I see flying the blue and yellow right now is also flying the Butcher's Apron. We've got all Trump and no Hillary Clinton. What a wonderful time to be alive...
    Putin's such a pussy we don't have to go to war with him, we just lol while Ukraine kicks his arse. His missiles don't work and he doesn't have the balls to put them to the test.

    Winter Is Coming. Winter clothing is not. So raise your posting game or you'll be freezing to death in a t shirt in donetsk oblast.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,529
    If backbench Tory MPs foment a rebellion to avoid the extinction of the Tory Party, isn't there a risk that they'll be confused with Extinction Rebellion?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,922

    Time to close down the Daily Mail.
    It’s a complete cancer on British public life, is run by sociopaths, and owned by tax dodgers.

    I thought that is exactly the types we are looking for to help us "grow"?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,912
    MaxPB said:

    There’s a lot of flag flying in the US, certainly outside of NYC.

    If you see a Ukraine flag, it’s safe to go and borrow some sugar.

    If you see a “Let’s Go Brandon” placard, avoid like the plague.

    What does "Let's Go Brandon" relate to? It seems like a really odd phrase to have on a flag or placard.
    It even has its own Wiki page now!
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let's_Go_Brandon
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,939

    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Interesting that if we look back all the way back to Operation Motorman, Mirror / NOTW / Mail were all up to naughty stuff (well all the papers were including the holy than thou ones, but those 3 pumped lots of money into it). However, after the plod called all the editors in, the Mail were one of the papers who changed the way they operated, while the Mirror / NOTW just carried on and hence when phone hacking hit, the Mail weren't implicated.

    Interesting that now alleged they have more recently gone down that path of the tabloids worst behaviour.
    All of that was standard operating procedure in Fleet Street - they seemed to take the view that being the Fourth Estate put them above the law. To the point that nearly anything went for an investigation. On Guardian hack was proud of using the phone “hack” - it didn’t seem to occur to him that the target wasn’t the issue, but the overall legality.

    One reason the phone hacking thing faded away was that too many people were coming into the frame - the police selling background checks to private detectives and phone hacking and email interception was extremely common, in and out of the press. I have knowledge of a case involving a sports club - a paranoid nutter who hired a private eye to dig on everyone on the committee, then tried blackmailing people. The stuff he got access to for a few hundred pounds was staggering.
    It was only the Independent that even really looked into this a tiny bit. The rest were obsessed by which z-list celeb had their voice mail listened to, when there appeared to pretty good evidence that a lot worse had been going on both with the papers but also private entities.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,922
    MaxPB said:

    There’s a lot of flag flying in the US, certainly outside of NYC.

    If you see a Ukraine flag, it’s safe to go and borrow some sugar.

    If you see a “Let’s Go Brandon” placard, avoid like the plague.

    What does "Let's Go Brandon" relate to? It seems like a really odd phrase to have on a flag or placard.
    Means F*** Joe Biden
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,977
    edited October 6
    MaxPB said:

    There’s a lot of flag flying in the US, certainly outside of NYC.

    If you see a Ukraine flag, it’s safe to go and borrow some sugar.

    If you see a “Let’s Go Brandon” placard, avoid like the plague.

    What does "Let's Go Brandon" relate to? It seems like a really odd phrase to have on a flag or placard.
    It's a substitution for "F*** Joe Biden" that originates from a TV commentator sanitising what was being chanted by a crowd.
  • pancakespancakes Posts: 29
    I think the 1922 committee have the right to alter the rules and if they felt they had enough support, they could either (a) suspend or abolish the right of party members to have the final say, or (b) require a very high number of MPs to nominate someone in order for them to go through to the first round (or alternatively to the final round).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kle4 said:

    I cannot take seriously any genuine comment which uses the term Butcher's Apron in an effort to be edgy.

    On the flying of flags, so few people fly them anyway (as opposed to somewhere like the USA) that it is probably hard to draw any conclusions from it.

    He has picked it up on here not realising it is a Scoticism. See also the superfluous wonderful in the final sentence - needs to work on his idioms.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,365

    Sandpit said:

    Someone thought it was worth stabbing 4 people for a bike on Bishopsgate during this mornings rush hour. But if you listen to @MayorofLondon you’d think climate change is London’s number one issue at the moment

    https://twitter.com/DDDaughters/status/1578022800836939776?s=20&t=iTxC0ZgdDvxQmMv61D08xg

    "The good news is, it's not a terror attack. And another piece of good news is the three victims of the stabbing are not in life-threatening situations, thank God. But it's just a reminder of the dangers of carrying the knife." - Sadiq Khan

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/06/bishopsgate-incident-multiple-people-injured-suspected-stabbing/

    Err, there was only one person carrying a knife, Mr Khan, and that was the bike thief.

    When the crime moves from the gangland areas and the tourist areas, to the City, he’s got a big problem on his hands.
    Well its was very dangerous for the thief, without the knife the mob might have detained him or worse still inflicted some pain.
    The crime was within a couple of hundred yards of Bishopsgate police station, and blanketed with cctv. Such is our broken justice system that no-one cares.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 17,697

    Another U turn from Truss today.

    Macron is a friend 🧅 ❤️

    He must have complimented her on her necklace.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,093
    edited October 6
    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
  • Circling the drain.
    What happens now?

    The conservative mps need to agree a single candidate and throw Truss out
    Which would be Rishi Sunak.

    Could it possibly be (I don't particularly favour this theory - just asking - but then again the man in question does have a lot of resources) that Sunak staged all this? Let's say he is fully aware that given a choice between a white candidate and a non-white one the retired Powellites who make up the membership will always pick the white one. So who would he want to replace Johnson, as his own transitional person? Truss or Mordaunt? Well Truss of course! Watch her self-destruct as the biggest pile of cretinous insanity that has ever graced Number 10. Then sail in through the front door by acclamation.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,977

    Another U turn from Truss today.

    Macron is a friend 🧅 ❤️

    He must have complimented her on her necklace.
    Well he did talk about "strategic intimacy".
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,179

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    They are truly dreadful figures.
    These things tend to take on a momentum of their own. All bad news is the government's fault (and there'll be plenty of it). Good news ignored.
    Happened to Major and Brown.

    Also, hard to fix as changing leader may not resolve the issue.
    War with Russia would fix it. Then once the strategic nukes started flying - which would be within about a week, max - there'd be no country left and survivors wouldn't be answering pollsters or voting. There's practically no opposition on the pro-Zelensky foreign policy.

    The kind of person who flies the Ukrainian flag from their house is the type who would have voted for Trump. Practically every property I see flying the blue and yellow right now is also flying the Butcher's Apron. We've got all Trump and no Hillary Clinton. What a wonderful time to be alive...
    We haven't even got a Joe Biden. Could you imagine Sir Keir Starmer telling Liz Truss she's the worst f*cking PM in British history? He wouldn't have the guts.
    He'd use far more lawyer- like language!
  • pancakespancakes Posts: 29
    The extinction of the Daily Mail seems very unlikely. It did happen to the News of the World, but that was probably a relatively small part of News International compared with the Mail's role at Associated Newspapers.

    But does anyone know by what right the Mail has the Royal coat of arms on its masthead? Can anyone do that or will they have been given permission at some stage in the recesses of history? If the latter, can such permission be revoked?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571

    Another U turn from Truss today.

    Macron is a friend 🧅 ❤️

    He must have complimented her on her necklace.
    The Story of O is French after all 💁‍♀️
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    pancakes said:

    I think the 1922 committee have the right to alter the rules and if they felt they had enough support, they could either (a) suspend or abolish the right of party members to have the final say, or (b) require a very high number of MPs to nominate someone in order for them to go through to the first round (or alternatively to the final round).

    (a) definitely not possible and I don't think they can alter the 15% rule either. Their power extends to the nuts and bolts of the election not to substance. Think of them as returning officers.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 10,452
    ohnotnow said:

    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Holy moly. Aside from just 'what the hell?!' - I wonder if this was under Dacre, Greig or Verity.
    OR all of the above, and then some?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    pancakes said:

    The extinction of the Daily Mail seems very unlikely. It did happen to the News of the World, but that was probably a relatively small part of News International compared with the Mail's role at Associated Newspapers.

    But does anyone know by what right the Mail has the Royal coat of arms on its masthead? Can anyone do that or will they have been given permission at some stage in the recesses of history? If the latter, can such permission be revoked?

    I like that suggestion so much Pancakes, I could toss you 🤭
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,204
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
    Lol, she was merely an accountant trying to find savings to ensure the pension fund stayed afloat (hint, she proposed cuts to rail investment because that was the only area that wasn't "protected") but she did say there were a huge number of people retiring at >70% and loads at 80% and the actuaries were saying NR would be bankrupt in 20 years without huge government intervention or cuts elsewhere.

    Multiply this to the nation at large and loads of big businesses across the country.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,093
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    I cannot take seriously any genuine comment which uses the term Butcher's Apron in an effort to be edgy.

    On the flying of flags, so few people fly them anyway (as opposed to somewhere like the USA) that it is probably hard to draw any conclusions from it.

    He has picked it up on here not realising it is a Scoticism. See also the superfluous wonderful in the final sentence - needs to work on his idioms.
    Isn't it on the contrary a political expression, like Whig? Also a Jacobite one, in this case from Cumberland's atrocities post-Culloden in 1746. Perhaps stemming from this cartoon.

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jacobite_broadside_-_Agreeable_Contrast.jpg
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,365
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Wow.

    That's a pretty serious set of allegations. If subsequent investigation bears them out, then one might expect some individuals are likely to see the inside of a jail.
    The only defence we have is that most of us are not important enough for anyone to bother.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,735
    IshmaelZ said:

    pancakes said:

    I think the 1922 committee have the right to alter the rules and if they felt they had enough support, they could either (a) suspend or abolish the right of party members to have the final say, or (b) require a very high number of MPs to nominate someone in order for them to go through to the first round (or alternatively to the final round).

    (a) definitely not possible and I don't think they can alter the 15% rule either. Their power extends to the nuts and bolts of the election not to substance. Think of them as returning officers.
    Out of interest how would the Tory leadership voting system be changed? Who needs to approve any changes?
  • eekeek Posts: 21,819
    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
    Lol, she was merely an accountant trying to find savings to ensure the pension fund stayed afloat (hint, she proposed cuts to rail investment because that was the only area that wasn't "protected") but she did say there were a huge number of people retiring at >70% and loads at 80% and the actuaries were saying NR would be bankrupt in 20 years without huge government intervention or cuts elsewhere.

    Multiply this to the nation at large and loads of big businesses across the country.
    Network Rail is fairly unique in being a "private" company with a DB pension. Most disappeared 15+ years ago except where they were required due to their relationship with the public sector
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,093
    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
    Lol, she was merely an accountant trying to find savings to ensure the pension fund stayed afloat (hint, she proposed cuts to rail investment because that was the only area that wasn't "protected") but she did say there were a huge number of people retiring at >70% and loads at 80% and the actuaries were saying NR would be bankrupt in 20 years without huge government intervention or cuts elsewhere.

    Multiply this to the nation at large and loads of big businesses across the country.
    Stdill doesn't meet the sniff test, given the hard work and safety issues involved which woiuld tend to prevent the extension of retirement age. I wonder if actual salary with overtime is being used to work out pension entitlement but for accountants' purposes it hs expressed in basic salary?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    pancakes said:

    I think the 1922 committee have the right to alter the rules and if they felt they had enough support, they could either (a) suspend or abolish the right of party members to have the final say, or (b) require a very high number of MPs to nominate someone in order for them to go through to the first round (or alternatively to the final round).

    (a) definitely not possible and I don't think they can alter the 15% rule either. Their power extends to the nuts and bolts of the election not to substance. Think of them as returning officers.
    Out of interest how would the Tory leadership voting system be changed? Who needs to approve any changes?
    I think the answer is, the membership!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,365

    Circling the drain.
    What happens now?

    The conservative mps need to agree a single candidate and throw Truss out
    Which would be Rishi Sunak.

    Could it possibly be (I don't particularly favour this theory - just asking - but then again the man in question does have a lot of resources) that Sunak staged all this? Let's say he is fully aware that given a choice between a white candidate and a non-white one the retired Powellites who make up the membership will always pick the white one. So who would he want to replace Johnson, as his own transitional person? Truss or Mordaunt? Well Truss of course! Watch her self-destruct as the biggest pile of cretinous insanity that has ever graced Number 10. Then sail in through the front door by acclamation.
    No. That is silly, and would work just as well if Mordaunt had won. More believably, if Truss had withdrawn at the last minute, as Leadsom did against May, then some would be asking how big a cheque Sunak had written her.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,148

    Circling the drain.
    What happens now?

    The conservative mps need to agree a single candidate and throw Truss out
    Which would be Rishi Sunak.

    Could it possibly be (I don't particularly favour this theory - just asking - but then again the man in question does have a lot of resources) that Sunak staged all this? Let's say he is fully aware that given a choice between a white candidate and a non-white one the retired Powellites who make up the membership will always pick the white one. So who would he want to replace Johnson, as his own transitional person? Truss or Mordaunt? Well Truss of course! Watch her self-destruct as the biggest pile of cretinous insanity that has ever graced Number 10. Then sail in through the front door by acclamation.
    Sunak can't be leader now he has been rejected by the membership without civil war in the party.

    As I said before the only viable replacement for Truss before the next general election is Wallace, with maybe Sunak as Chancellor
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,918
    edited October 6
    @Sandpit Thank you for your kind comment on the last thread. Will report back. As you can see I have reached an age where I can no longer scare the willies out of myself by my own strength and agility (skiing, catamaran sailing) so I am relying on the mechanised forms (Pitts Special, single seater racing car, etc).

    I fancy a go on one of the ex Americas cup catamarans, but I can't see how it is possible. I'm guessing you can't get a crew together for a joy ride and even if you could it would cost a fortune to hire them. I seem to remember Top Gear did a race against one in New Zealand. Envious.

    Any other suggestions for scaring myself. I don't like heights, but I'm ok if enclosed (hence can ski and pitts special and gliders)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,453
    Sandpit said:

    Someone thought it was worth stabbing 4 people for a bike on Bishopsgate during this mornings rush hour. But if you listen to @MayorofLondon you’d think climate change is London’s number one issue at the moment

    https://twitter.com/DDDaughters/status/1578022800836939776?s=20&t=iTxC0ZgdDvxQmMv61D08xg

    "The good news is, it's not a terror attack. And another piece of good news is the three victims of the stabbing are not in life-threatening situations, thank God. But it's just a reminder of the dangers of carrying the knife." - Sadiq Khan

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/06/bishopsgate-incident-multiple-people-injured-suspected-stabbing/

    Err, there was only one person carrying a knife, Mr Khan, and that was the bike thief.

    When the crime moves from the gangland areas and the tourist areas, to the City, he’s got a big problem on his hands.
    I don't believe the Mayor of London has jurisdiction in the City of London, as that has its own police force.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    I cannot take seriously any genuine comment which uses the term Butcher's Apron in an effort to be edgy.

    On the flying of flags, so few people fly them anyway (as opposed to somewhere like the USA) that it is probably hard to draw any conclusions from it.

    He has picked it up on here not realising it is a Scoticism. See also the superfluous wonderful in the final sentence - needs to work on his idioms.
    Isn't it on the contrary a political expression, like Whig? Also a Jacobite one, in this case from Cumberland's atrocities post-Culloden in 1746. Perhaps stemming from this cartoon.

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jacobite_broadside_-_Agreeable_Contrast.jpg
    Always assumed the butcher was Cumberland and therefore the expression Scottish.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,507
    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    I think the Daily Mail has a few problems

    https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1578050430650748928

    Hamlins LLP said the "unlawful acts alleged to have taken place include:
    1) The hiring of private investigators to secretly place listening devices inside people’s cars and homes
    2) The commissioning of individuals to surreptitiously listen into and record people’s live, private telephone calls whilst they were taking place
    3) The payment of police officials, with corrupt links to private investigators, for inside, sensitive information
    4) The impersonation of individuals to obtain medical information from private hospitals, clinics, and treatment centres by deception
    5) The accessing of bank accounts, credit histories and financial transactions through illicit means and manipulation.

    Crumbs. Those are some serious (alleged) crimes.
    Which require jail time.
    Maaaaaaaarvellous
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,204
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
    Lol, she was merely an accountant trying to find savings to ensure the pension fund stayed afloat (hint, she proposed cuts to rail investment because that was the only area that wasn't "protected") but she did say there were a huge number of people retiring at >70% and loads at 80% and the actuaries were saying NR would be bankrupt in 20 years without huge government intervention or cuts elsewhere.

    Multiply this to the nation at large and loads of big businesses across the country.
    Network Rail is fairly unique in being a "private" company with a DB pension. Most disappeared 15+ years ago except where they were required due to their relationship with the public sector
    The schemes were closed to new entrants, yes, but there remain millions of people currently receiving or about to receive DB pensions and they are largely funded out of today's tax or business revenue and the problem will only get worse for the next 30-40 years before it improves and DB pension holders die off. However, before then we will be facing national bankruptcy to pay for it. It is completely untenable and Labour or the Tories need to take steps which, as I said, will leave a lot of people feeling hard done by, but then so were the WASPI women.

    DB pensions should never have been offered but the mistake was made and now it needs a course correction.

    Cutting that DB pension liability would cut bond rates for the state and private sectors overnight.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    They are truly dreadful figures.
    These things tend to take on a momentum of their own. All bad news is the government's fault (and there'll be plenty of it). Good news ignored.
    Happened to Major and Brown.

    Also, hard to fix as changing leader may not resolve the issue.
    War with Russia would fix it. Then once the strategic nukes started flying - which would be within about a week, max - there'd be no country left and survivors wouldn't be answering pollsters or voting. There's practically no opposition on the pro-Zelensky foreign policy.

    The kind of person who flies the Ukrainian flag from their house is the type who would have voted for Trump. Practically every property I see flying the blue and yellow right now is also flying the Butcher's Apron. We've got all Trump and no Hillary Clinton. What a wonderful time to be alive...
    "The kind of person who flies the Ukrainian flag from their house is the type who would have voted for Trump."

    Total pigshit, from another one of Putin's pimps.
    Yes
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,203

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    They are truly dreadful figures.
    These things tend to take on a momentum of their own. All bad news is the government's fault (and there'll be plenty of it). Good news ignored.
    Happened to Major and Brown.

    Also, hard to fix as changing leader may not resolve the issue.
    War with Russia would fix it. Then once the strategic nukes started flying - which would be within about a week, max - there'd be no country left and survivors wouldn't be answering pollsters or voting. There's practically no opposition on the pro-Zelensky foreign policy.

    The kind of person who flies the Ukrainian flag from their house is the type who would have voted for Trump. Practically every property I see flying the blue and yellow right now is also flying the Butcher's Apron. We've got all Trump and no Hillary Clinton. What a wonderful time to be alive...
    "The kind of person who flies the Ukrainian flag from their house is the type who would have voted for Trump."

    Total pigshit, from another one of Putin's pimps.
    Trumpets are usually Putin fans over Ukraine, complete with “Hunter Bidens laptop” memes and all the other shite
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,735
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
    Why would closing DB pensions schemes be a priority for the next government?

    And on what basis could the government legitimately force the conversion of "existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes"?

    For private companies it's entirely a matter for them. For public companies, well yes, HMG might decide it needs to close DB schemes for new entrants and stop the further accrual of DB rights but they cannot simply steal away the rights already accrued.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,204
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
    Lol, she was merely an accountant trying to find savings to ensure the pension fund stayed afloat (hint, she proposed cuts to rail investment because that was the only area that wasn't "protected") but she did say there were a huge number of people retiring at >70% and loads at 80% and the actuaries were saying NR would be bankrupt in 20 years without huge government intervention or cuts elsewhere.

    Multiply this to the nation at large and loads of big businesses across the country.
    Stdill doesn't meet the sniff test, given the hard work and safety issues involved which woiuld tend to prevent the extension of retirement age. I wonder if actual salary with overtime is being used to work out pension entitlement but for accountants' purposes it hs expressed in basic salary?
    That could be it, also NR is hugely bureaucratic so a big proportion of the workers won't be doing manual labour.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,977
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
    Lol, she was merely an accountant trying to find savings to ensure the pension fund stayed afloat (hint, she proposed cuts to rail investment because that was the only area that wasn't "protected") but she did say there were a huge number of people retiring at >70% and loads at 80% and the actuaries were saying NR would be bankrupt in 20 years without huge government intervention or cuts elsewhere.

    Multiply this to the nation at large and loads of big businesses across the country.
    Network Rail is fairly unique in being a "private" company with a DB pension. Most disappeared 15+ years ago except where they were required due to their relationship with the public sector
    The schemes were closed to new entrants, yes, but there remain millions of people currently receiving or about to receive DB pensions and they are largely funded out of today's tax or business revenue and the problem will only get worse for the next 30-40 years before it improves and DB pension holders die off. However, before then we will be facing national bankruptcy to pay for it. It is completely untenable and Labour or the Tories need to take steps which, as I said, will leave a lot of people feeling hard done by, but then so were the WASPI women.

    DB pensions should never have been offered but the mistake was made and now it needs a course correction.

    Cutting that DB pension liability would cut bond rates for the state and private sectors overnight.
    Outstanding DB pension liabilities are the UK equivalent of zombie companies that crowd out new productive investment.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,093
    edited October 6
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    I cannot take seriously any genuine comment which uses the term Butcher's Apron in an effort to be edgy.

    On the flying of flags, so few people fly them anyway (as opposed to somewhere like the USA) that it is probably hard to draw any conclusions from it.

    He has picked it up on here not realising it is a Scoticism. See also the superfluous wonderful in the final sentence - needs to work on his idioms.
    Isn't it on the contrary a political expression, like Whig? Also a Jacobite one, in this case from Cumberland's atrocities post-Culloden in 1746. Perhaps stemming from this cartoon.

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jacobite_broadside_-_Agreeable_Contrast.jpg
    Always assumed the butcher was Cumberland and therefore the expression Scottish.
    Only in the sense that the immediate victims were. But, like Culloden itself, it reflects the much wider Hanoverian/Jacobite split, which was present not only in Scotland but in the UK and Ireland. Very many Scots would never have used the term, that's for sure. So it's not a specifrically Scottish vs UK thing in its origins. (Plenty of non-Scots were killed by Cumberland's armies, too.)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,204

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
    Why would closing DB pensions schemes be a priority for the next government?

    And on what basis could the government legitimately force the conversion of "existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes"?

    For private companies it's entirely a matter for them. For public companies, well yes, HMG might decide it needs to close DB schemes for new entrants and stop the further accrual of DB rights but they cannot simply steal away the rights already accrued.
    Because DB pensions are bankrupting the nation. It's an absolutely gigantic liability no one is willing to face up to yet it looms large over the economy.
  • pancakespancakes Posts: 29
    IshmaelZ said:

    pancakes said:

    I think the 1922 committee have the right to alter the rules and if they felt they had enough support, they could either (a) suspend or abolish the right of party members to have the final say, or (b) require a very high number of MPs to nominate someone in order for them to go through to the first round (or alternatively to the final round).

    (a) definitely not possible and I don't think they can alter the 15% rule either. Their power extends to the nuts and bolts of the election not to substance. Think of them as returning officers.
    You could be right, but on 11 July the 2923 committee increased the minimum number of nominations needed to enter the contest to 20 ( https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/tory-leadership-race-tightens-as-mp-threshold-raised ), set it at 30 for the second round, and also later sai

    d they could choose to increase it further in later rounds. So what would stop them picking a much higher figure?

    Secondly, if the committee doesn't have the power either to set a very high threshold or to suspend the membership vote entirely, who does? Would Tory MPs as a whole have the power to adopt a rule change (by what majority?) or would another body within the party have to do so? Either way it is at least conceivable that sufficient support for changing the rules could develop.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,204

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
    Lol, she was merely an accountant trying to find savings to ensure the pension fund stayed afloat (hint, she proposed cuts to rail investment because that was the only area that wasn't "protected") but she did say there were a huge number of people retiring at >70% and loads at 80% and the actuaries were saying NR would be bankrupt in 20 years without huge government intervention or cuts elsewhere.

    Multiply this to the nation at large and loads of big businesses across the country.
    Network Rail is fairly unique in being a "private" company with a DB pension. Most disappeared 15+ years ago except where they were required due to their relationship with the public sector
    The schemes were closed to new entrants, yes, but there remain millions of people currently receiving or about to receive DB pensions and they are largely funded out of today's tax or business revenue and the problem will only get worse for the next 30-40 years before it improves and DB pension holders die off. However, before then we will be facing national bankruptcy to pay for it. It is completely untenable and Labour or the Tories need to take steps which, as I said, will leave a lot of people feeling hard done by, but then so were the WASPI women.

    DB pensions should never have been offered but the mistake was made and now it needs a course correction.

    Cutting that DB pension liability would cut bond rates for the state and private sectors overnight.
    Outstanding DB pension liabilities are the UK equivalent of zombie companies that crowd out new productive investment.
    Yup, and if this government is actually "pro growth" and stands against the "anti growth coalition" then it needs to be taking on these kinds of issues. It isn't, because it doesn't care about growth, only the continuation of shovelling more money to old people for votes.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,912
    MaxPB said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't normally like to carry things forward from the previous thread, but it was a rather short one!

    MaxPB said:

    I think whoever wins the next election will have to grasp the nettle of DB pensions. It will be unpopular among those who believe they "have worked hard all their lives" but then again we can't bankrupt the nation to pander to a small group of already pretty well of people. Just as the WASPI women felt hard done by because a historical wrong was righted, DB pensioners will also feel hard done by because the government and industry made promises they couldn't keep 40 years ago on retirement income.

    The next party in power will need to close all DB pension schemes and come up with a fairish formula for converting existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes. Though I have no idea how that works in practice given that DB schemes are non-contributory.

    Simply, neither the state nor private industry can afford to pay retirees 50-80% of their final salary until the day they die along with everything else and for industry continuing to invest in the business.

    Ultimately, we need a government who is willing to tell 60+ people that things are going to be a lot more difficult and they'll need to work to 70+ if they want to keep their existing lifestyle because the nation can't afford to fund it.

    What DB pensions are paying 80% of final salary?! And how many DB pensions are there still left? Surely most DB schemes have already closed and switched to DC.

    Pensions are an issue, but shouldn't we talk about raising the pension age first?
    My sister was juggling the costs of one briefly at Network Rail that paid up to 80% of final salary so they are definitely out there, I think that one is still open too.

    It's not about closing the schemes, although that is also necessary, it's restating the existing ones that are due to pay out after 2030 (which gives people time to plan) into DC and all of them to DC by 2040. Existing recipients will have to take a hit.
    That NR pension - it seems to be the usual 1/60 x year served x annual salary. She must be working for 48 years and/or paying in extra and/or deferring.

    https://www.mynrpension.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/NR-Pensions-Key-Features-April-2021.pdf
    Why would closing DB pensions schemes be a priority for the next government?

    And on what basis could the government legitimately force the conversion of "existing DB pensions to DC based on the asset levels within those DB pension schemes"?

    For private companies it's entirely a matter for them. For public companies, well yes, HMG might decide it needs to close DB schemes for new entrants and stop the further accrual of DB rights but they cannot simply steal away the rights already accrued.
    Because DB pensions are bankrupting the nation. It's an absolutely gigantic liability no one is willing to face up to yet it looms large over the economy.
    British Airways now has more retired pilots than active pilots on its books. It’s basically a pension scheme that flies planes around.
This discussion has been closed.