Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

The Cost of Lizzing Crisis [1] – politicalbetting.com

2456711

Comments

  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945
    edited September 2022

    Threads is horrible.

    Currently 30 mins into a re-watch.

    Makes me realise we are further down the timeline than we think - in the movie, constant bbc reports about carry on normally, there is no cause for alarm, etc. When in actual fact what was about to happen was staring everyone in the face.

    I've had a bad feeling about this for days, it's not getting any better now.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    edited September 2022

    Leon said:

    Here goes then. THREADS. It better be as jolly and entertaining as you all promise

    Is this the one the BBC banned for years?
    yes banned for being too depictive and frightening -unlike of course the public information films about what to do when the 4 minute warning sounds - build a shelter , grand designs would be proud of OR hide under a table
    When you hear the air attack warning you and your family must take cover!
    Have you cancelled the milk ? If not do it now .
    Also make sure your central heating and all electrical items are switched off. You don't want a huge electricity bill to add to your woes after this.
    Someone needs to make a docu-drama about the challenges of getting a new fixed rate mortgage deal in post-apocalypse Sheffield.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,876

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
  • On topic, I agree @Cyclefree

    Ditch the nutcase. She should never have got there in the first place.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited September 2022
    glw said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Here goes then. THREADS. It better be as jolly and entertaining as you all promise

    Is this the one the BBC banned for years?
    No that was The War Game from 1965
    It was. Peter Watkins was the director.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059894/
    A better film than Threads, which is also very good.
    I'd say so too - though I have no intention of watching either again.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,839
    River Taff at the highest level since March. Hurrah.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158

    @Leon

    On the pipe explosion:



    Dan Nexon
    @dhnexon
    Nord Stream 🧵

    Two questions keep on showing up in my TL: "Who sabotaged the pipeline?" and "If Putin ordered it, why would he do that?" I'm going to address the second one. https://cnn.com/2022/09/28/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-leak-russian-navy-ships

    First of all, the answer is less important than people sometimes assume.

    https://twitter.com/dhnexon/status/1575861640322764800

    That's a great thread.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,158

    Leon said:

    Here goes then. THREADS. It better be as jolly and entertaining as you all promise

    Is this the one the BBC banned for years?
    yes banned for being too depictive and frightening -unlike of course the public information films about what to do when the 4 minute warning sounds - build a shelter , grand designs would be proud of OR hide under a table
    When you hear the air attack warning you and your family must take cover!
    Is it too late to order a Deliveroo?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,876
    rcs1000 said:

    POTUS Jimmy Carter is 98 tomorrow.

    Will he run in 2024, d'you think?
    His involvement in and work for Habitat for Humanity is truly inspirational.

    A fine example of the good a political leader can do when they are no longer in office. Something for the likes of Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson and before long Truss to consider.
  • Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Looks like The Express has finally abandoned Liz. Hitherto there'd be some attempt at blame deflection.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    https://archive.ph/68Vp7

    Some background on LDIs and pensions from someone who seems to understand them, via Bloomberg.
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
    Fund local government properly.
    Reduce income tax accordingly.
    Renters no longer pay council tax, and landlord’s ability to recover from tenants will be limited by what the market will bear.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    ✍️ Kwasi Kwarteng has promised to make a new “commitment” to bring public spending under control following a week of financial turmoil.

    Writing in The Telegraph, the Chancellor vows to publish a “credible” plan in November to get debt falling
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/


  • Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    EXCL: Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour about how to overturn Kwasi Kwarteng’s budget

    Lots of questions about the mechanism, not least because finance bill not expected until next year

    But Kwarteng’s opponents think they’ll have the numbers

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/56d743e2-40ae-11ed-b24d-96120f17513d?shareToken=9c8d2bcace64f9c56373dbe674492048
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,813
    edited September 2022

    Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    its actually the one bit of the announcements in the last two weeks that make sense -= there is definitely a lot of fat in public services and government departments
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,333
    GET ON WITH IT

    BORRRRING
  • Scott_xP said:

    ✍️ Kwasi Kwarteng has promised to make a new “commitment” to bring public spending under control following a week of financial turmoil.

    Writing in The Telegraph, the Chancellor vows to publish a “credible” plan in November to get debt falling
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/


    Slash and burn. Grind the poor down. Tax bonanza for the rich. Trim the fat from broken public services (nothing works in this country is a popular refrain down the dog and duck).

    They've all gone mad.

    1922. Do the work. Now.



  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
    Fund local government properly.
    Reduce income tax accordingly.
    Renters no longer pay council tax, and landlord’s ability to recover from tenants will be limited by what the market will bear.
    Why shouldn't renters pay Council tax? They use local services the same as everyone else. And before you answer - I rent.

    What we might need is say, a local tax where everyone pays the same amount, or an amount as a % of their income. An induvial local tax....?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668
    Leon said:

    GET ON WITH IT

    BORRRRING

    That's the whole point. Banality.
  • Leon said:

    GET ON WITH IT

    BORRRRING

    It was made decades ago. The pace and style of TV has changed dramatically since. Is it for the better? Discuss.
  • Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    its actually the one bit of the announcements in the last two weeks that make sense -= there is definitely a lot of fat in public services
    There really isn’t.
    Not with UK’s demographic.

    Truss wants to shrink the state to US proportions. If she gets away with it, the effect will be terrifying on the bottom 20%.
  • Leon said:

    GET ON WITH IT

    BORRRRING

    It was made decades ago. The pace and style of TV has changed dramatically since. Is it for the better? Discuss.
    yes we would now only get a 30 second warning as 4 minutes is so BOOOOORRRRRING
  • Leon said:

    GET ON WITH IT

    BORRRRING

    That's the whole point. Banality.
    @Leon doesn't believe in banal sex :lol:
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Slash and burn. Grind the poor down. Tax bonanza for the rich. Trim the fat from broken public services (nothing works in this country is a popular refrain down the dog and duck).

    As truss is quoted as saying

    80 seat majority. If not now, when...
  • Scott_xP said:

    EXCL: Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour about how to overturn Kwasi Kwarteng’s budget

    Lots of questions about the mechanism, not least because finance bill not expected until next year

    But Kwarteng’s opponents think they’ll have the numbers

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/56d743e2-40ae-11ed-b24d-96120f17513d?shareToken=9c8d2bcace64f9c56373dbe674492048

    If it's next year then Kwarteng wont be presenting it, that's for sure.

  • Leon said:

    GET ON WITH IT

    BORRRRING

    Thought you were addressing Vlad at first.
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
    Fund local government properly.
    Reduce income tax accordingly.
    Renters no longer pay council tax, and landlord’s ability to recover from tenants will be limited by what the market will bear.
    Why shouldn't renters pay Council tax? They use local services the same as everyone else. And before you answer - I rent.

    What we might need is say, a local tax where everyone pays the same amount, or an amount as a % of their income. An induvial local tax....?
    Council tax administration is a nightmare.
    Collecting tax from renters is a total waste of time.

    Allocate a share of VAT to local services if you want.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited September 2022
    I fear the economic headwinds are so great that we’re going to get both savage public spending cuts AND severe tax rises, for the next few years.

    Austerity 1.0 had nothing on what is to about to come.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Leon said:

    GET ON WITH IT

    BORRRRING

    That's the whole point. Banality.
    @Leon doesn't believe in banal sex :lol:
    I did wonder if he got the wrong idea about the micturitating lady. Never mind.
  • London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    She’s finished. Risky (you may think) to say this so early? But she is. The parliamentary Conservative Party must urgently cut itself free of what will soon be the political corpse of its leadership.

    An almost unknown prime minister and her almost unknown chancellor have trashed a golden opportunity to reach out to all sides in their party and consult and reflect during weeks of national mourning — and instead blundered straight into a massively ill-considered move that has almost literally scared the country out of its wits. This prime minister must be dispatched. Sacking her chancellor (though she should) won’t save her now. Her own removal is not a matter of “if” but when, how and by whom.

    By whom? That’s entirely in the hands of her own MPs.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/this-prime-minister-must-be-dispatched-now-c6vkf787k
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660

    Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    I think we can survive two years, especially with a rebellious conservative MPs. Seems like the oldest party may well be retired after Truss. .
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited September 2022

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    Coo, what happened to the SLDs? Another brown lump suddenly on the lawn to poke uncertainly with a stick till the originator aka proper Scottish poll comes over the fence and we can see what it is.
  • Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    its actually the one bit of the announcements in the last two weeks that make sense -= there is definitely a lot of fat in public services
    There really isn’t.
    Not with UK’s demographic.

    Truss wants to shrink the state to US proportions. If she gets away with it, the effect will be terrifying on the bottom 20%.
    yes how will they cope without Period Officers and heads of inclusion and diversity. Of course there is room to cut public spending on non- jobs
  • ping said:

    I fear the economic headwinds are so great that we’re going to get both savage public spending cuts AND severe tax rises, for the next few years.

    Austerity 1.0 had nothing on what is to about to come.

    Not if you are rich. Liz will see you right.
  • Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    its actually the one bit of the announcements in the last two weeks that make sense -= there is definitely a lot of fat in public services
    There really isn’t.
    Not with UK’s demographic.

    Truss wants to shrink the state to US proportions. If she gets away with it, the effect will be terrifying on the bottom 20%.
    yes how will they cope without Period Officers and heads of inclusion and diversity. Of course there is room to cut public spending on non- jobs
    Yep, so get rid of those.
    Now what to do with the other 99.999999999999999999999999% of spend?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    its actually the one bit of the announcements in the last two weeks that make sense -= there is definitely a lot of fat in public services
    There really isn’t.
    Not with UK’s demographic.

    Truss wants to shrink the state to US proportions. If she gets away with it, the effect will be terrifying on the bottom 20%.
    yes how will they cope without Period Officers and heads of inclusion and diversity. Of course there is room to cut public spending on non- jobs
    I'm sure you can give stats on how many of those jobs there are. Es\pecially as some of those jobs are necessary to deal with HMG's own legislation.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
    Fund local government properly.
    Reduce income tax accordingly.
    Renters no longer pay council tax, and landlord’s ability to recover from tenants will be limited by what the market will bear.
    Why shouldn't renters pay Council tax? They use local services the same as everyone else. And before you answer - I rent.

    What we might need is say, a local tax where everyone pays the same amount, or an amount as a % of their income. An induvial local tax....?
    Council tax administration is a nightmare.
    Collecting tax from renters is a total waste of time.

    Allocate a share of VAT to local services if you want.
    Fair enough but I don't know why collecting Council Tax from renters is a waste of time. I have to pay it - it's part of my tenancy agreement to do so and the Council wasted no time in knowing I was here.

    High turnover rental properties maybe difficult to police - but most renters would expect to pay it (why wouldn't they) and do. Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't use local services/infrastructure.

    It's a taboo word but a poll tax is actually the best solution. Tax the person.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    Lab lead 49% in the WM?!

    Cons had a big lead here, just a few months ago.
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
    Fund local government properly.
    Reduce income tax accordingly.
    Renters no longer pay council tax, and landlord’s ability to recover from tenants will be limited by what the market will bear.
    Why shouldn't renters pay Council tax? They use local services the same as everyone else. And before you answer - I rent.

    What we might need is say, a local tax where everyone pays the same amount, or an amount as a % of their income. An induvial local tax....?
    Council tax administration is a nightmare.
    Collecting tax from renters is a total waste of time.

    Allocate a share of VAT to local services if you want.
    Fair enough but I don't know why collecting Council Tax from renters is a waste of time. I have to pay it - it's part of my tenancy agreement to do so and the Council wasted no time in knowing I was here.

    High turnover rental properties maybe difficult to police - but most renters would expect to pay it (why wouldn't they) and do. Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't use local services/infrastructure.

    It's a taboo word but a poll tax is actually the best solution. Tax the person.
    Overall we tax income too highly, and wealth not enough.

    Good luck with your poll tax.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Slash and burn. Grind the poor down. Tax bonanza for the rich. Trim the fat from broken public services (nothing works in this country is a popular refrain down the dog and duck).

    As truss is quoted as saying

    80 seat majority. If not now, when...
    Yes, the IEA and Cato institute and Taxpayers Alliance and all the Hayeck and Rand reading teenagers in their bedrooms in underpants have been waiting their whole lives for this moment.

    Finally, the experiment can begin.
  • Carnyx said:

    Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    its actually the one bit of the announcements in the last two weeks that make sense -= there is definitely a lot of fat in public services
    There really isn’t.
    Not with UK’s demographic.

    Truss wants to shrink the state to US proportions. If she gets away with it, the effect will be terrifying on the bottom 20%.
    yes how will they cope without Period Officers and heads of inclusion and diversity. Of course there is room to cut public spending on non- jobs
    I'm sure you can give stats on how many of those jobs there are. Es\pecially as some of those jobs are necessary to deal with HMG's own legislation.
    yes I am sure it is to do with stupid legislation - that can go as well.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    rcs1000 said:

    POTUS Jimmy Carter is 98 tomorrow.

    Will he run in 2024, d'you think?
    No, he’s a generous soul who wouldn’t want to spoil Biden’s second term.
    2028 is more likely.
  • Carnyx said:

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    Coo, what happened to the SLDs? Another brown lump suddenly on the lawn to poke uncertainly with a stick till the originator aka proper Scottish poll comes over the fence and we can see what it is.
    Cole Hamilton smirking at the coffin wasn’t a good look.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited September 2022

    POTUS Jimmy Carter is 98 tomorrow.

    is he the oldest ever former President or UK prime minister?
    Yes. Runners up are James Callaghan (died the day before his 93rd birthday) and George H. Bush (94).

    Carter deserves some sort of record. He was a lousy president in many ways, but was probably also the single most decent and well-meaning man ever to be President and has done far more good than almost any other human in the years since his defeat.
  • ping said:

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    Lab lead 49% in the WM?!

    Cons had a big lead here, just a few months ago.
    1. a subsample
    2. a few month ago = another age
  • Carnyx said:

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    Coo, what happened to the SLDs? Another brown lump suddenly on the lawn to poke uncertainly with a stick till the originator aka proper Scottish poll comes over the fence and we can see what it is.
    Cole Hamilton smirking at the coffin wasn’t a good look.
    tbh neither was Kwasi Kwartengs "perfomance" at the funeral either
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,968
    edited September 2022

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    After Truss and Kwarteng's tax cuts for the rich mini budget, seems the Tories are now doing better in London than anywhere else apart from the South East of England. Their vote still down everywhere though. The North East figure of just 9% for the Truss Tories is abysmal compared to the 38% Boris got there in 2019.

    Kwarteng has effectively sacrificed Tory redwall MPs on the alter of IEA libertarian ideology
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited September 2022

    Carnyx said:

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    Coo, what happened to the SLDs? Another brown lump suddenly on the lawn to poke uncertainly with a stick till the originator aka proper Scottish poll comes over the fence and we can see what it is.
    Cole Hamilton smirking at the coffin wasn’t a good look.
    ...
  • Carnyx said:

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    Coo, what happened to the SLDs? Another brown lump suddenly on the lawn to poke uncertainly with a stick till the originator aka proper Scottish poll comes over the fence and we can see what it is.
    Cole Hamilton smirking at the coffin wasn’t a good look.
    tbh neither was Kwasi Kwartengs "perfomance" at the funeral either
    Agreed.

    It was noticeable the state media tried to hush hush it.

    Luckily Kwarteng’s little “episode” is forever preserved in social media lore. What a twat.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,333
    I like the chatty comedy, and the scene with the funny bike, but it's fair to say it's a tiny bit more sombre, in places, than I anticipated
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Carnyx said:

    Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    its actually the one bit of the announcements in the last two weeks that make sense -= there is definitely a lot of fat in public services
    There really isn’t.
    Not with UK’s demographic.

    Truss wants to shrink the state to US proportions. If she gets away with it, the effect will be terrifying on the bottom 20%.
    yes how will they cope without Period Officers and heads of inclusion and diversity. Of course there is room to cut public spending on non- jobs
    I'm sure you can give stats on how many of those jobs there are. Es\pecially as some of those jobs are necessary to deal with HMG's own legislation.
    yes I am sure it is to do with stupid legislation - that can go as well.
    Hmm, so it's stupid to treat people equally?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
    Fund local government properly.
    Reduce income tax accordingly.
    Renters no longer pay council tax, and landlord’s ability to recover from tenants will be limited by what the market will bear.
    Why shouldn't renters pay Council tax? They use local services the same as everyone else. And before you answer - I rent.

    What we might need is say, a local tax where everyone pays the same amount, or an amount as a % of their income. An induvial local tax....?
    Council tax administration is a nightmare.
    Collecting tax from renters is a total waste of time.

    Allocate a share of VAT to local services if you want.
    Fair enough but I don't know why collecting Council Tax from renters is a waste of time. I have to pay it - it's part of my tenancy agreement to do so and the Council wasted no time in knowing I was here.

    High turnover rental properties maybe difficult to police - but most renters would expect to pay it (why wouldn't they) and do. Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't use local services/infrastructure.

    It's a taboo word but a poll tax is actually the best solution. Tax the person.
    Overall we tax income too highly, and wealth not enough.

    Good luck with your poll tax.
    Quite. It's politically impossible, although in my opinion quite an elegant solution. And actually fair. If you're well off you pay the same as someone who may not be as much, but the flipside is that the more well-off (relatively) use local services, especially welfare, much less.

    Which is why the problem of local funding will never be addressed because it's toxic to even look at. And never will be.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Important moment here - Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke tells the Times that the “very large” welfare state needs to be trimmed. This is the clearest yet that some serious spending cuts are on the way. This is where we are headed:

    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1575957703964250113/photo/1

    Kwasi Kwarteng has said there was no alternative to his mini-Budget, in the latest sign it’s staying in full.

    “Not all the measures we announced last week will be universally popular.

    “But we had to do something different. We had no other choice.” https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Leon said:

    I like the chatty comedy, and the scene with the funny bike, but it's fair to say it's a tiny bit more sombre, in places, than I anticipated

    Are you at the 'man on the shitter when the bomb goes off' bit yet?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    I like the chatty comedy, and the scene with the funny bike, but it's fair to say it's a tiny bit more sombre, in places, than I anticipated

    Have things gone to shit yet?
  • Carnyx said:

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    Coo, what happened to the SLDs? Another brown lump suddenly on the lawn to poke uncertainly with a stick till the originator aka proper Scottish poll comes over the fence and we can see what it is.
    Cole Hamilton smirking at the coffin wasn’t a good look.
    tbh neither was Kwasi Kwartengs "perfomance" at the funeral either
    Agreed.

    It was noticeable the state media tried to hush hush it.

    Luckily Kwarteng’s little “episode” is forever preserved in social media lore. What a twat.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioGhKmWVhMU
  • Scott_xP said:

    EXCL: Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour about how to overturn Kwasi Kwarteng’s budget

    Lots of questions about the mechanism, not least because finance bill not expected until next year

    But Kwarteng’s opponents think they’ll have the numbers

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/56d743e2-40ae-11ed-b24d-96120f17513d?shareToken=9c8d2bcace64f9c56373dbe674492048

    In talks with Labour - Oh dear oh dear. Very foolish showing of hands.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    New: Truss tells @TheSun tax cut plans will reap "short-term disruption" to economy - but insists going for growth the right thing to do...

    Under-fire PM vows no U-turn on mini-Budget as she attempts to quell days of market unrest and grumbling from MPs

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19972195/liz-truss-bills-government-on-your-side?utm_source=sharebar_app&utm_medium=sharebar_app&utm_campaign=sharebar_app_article
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,839
    Why didn't they mention spending cuts in the statement last week? Surely that would have helped reassure the markets over the level of borrowing? Unless they are just trying to get around their own gross incompetence and regard the tax cuts as non-negotiable.

    More worrying still, the word on the Tory backbenches is that they will work with Labour to ditch the 45p cut. A move that will help to the tune of all of £2bn. I'm also seeing a fair bit of the Tory commentariat stressing the importance of 'fairness' and that it would be better to keep the 45p rate? Why are they focusing on this. It appears as though the pension funds were in a state of cardiac arrest two days ago and they're arguing over such a small part of the puzzle. Why?

    I fear there is a certain momentum in the Tories to present the market reaction as a fait accompli, we'll have to make massive spending cuts but what we'll do is restore the 45p rate so the public can see we are committed to fairness. Labour have not got themselves in a good position over this, focusing far too much on tax cuts for the rich. If they want a well maintained public realm you don't go cutting income tax.

    I only hope that the continuing dire polls bring about a change in government.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Important moment here - Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke tells the Times that the “very large” welfare state needs to be trimmed. This is the clearest yet that some serious spending cuts are on the way. This is where we are headed:

    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1575957703964250113/photo/1

    Kwasi Kwarteng has said there was no alternative to his mini-Budget, in the latest sign it’s staying in full.

    “Not all the measures we announced last week will be universally popular.

    “But we had to do something different. We had no other choice.” https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/

    This is some kind of Pinochet-style hijack of government.

    They won’t get away with this.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Important moment here - Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke tells the Times that the “very large” welfare state needs to be trimmed. This is the clearest yet that some serious spending cuts are on the way. This is where we are headed:

    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1575957703964250113/photo/1

    Kwasi Kwarteng has said there was no alternative to his mini-Budget, in the latest sign it’s staying in full.

    “Not all the measures we announced last week will be universally popular.

    “But we had to do something different. We had no other choice.” https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/

    "“But we had to do something different. We had no other choice.”

    Why?

    Cos Truss says so and a load of tory members believed her nonsense.
  • HYUFD said:

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    After Truss and Kwarteng's tax cuts for the rich mini budget, seems the Tories are now doing better in London than anywhere else apart from the South East of England. Their vote still down everywhere though. The North East figure of just 9% for the Truss Tories is abysmal compared to the 38% Boris got there in 2019.

    Kwarteng has effectively sacrificed Tory redwall MPs on the alter of IEA libertarian ideology
    Naw ken.
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
    Fund local government properly.
    Reduce income tax accordingly.
    Renters no longer pay council tax, and landlord’s ability to recover from tenants will be limited by what the market will bear.
    Why shouldn't renters pay Council tax? They use local services the same as everyone else. And before you answer - I rent.

    What we might need is say, a local tax where everyone pays the same amount, or an amount as a % of their income. An induvial local tax....?
    Council tax administration is a nightmare.
    Collecting tax from renters is a total waste of time.

    Allocate a share of VAT to local services if you want.
    Fair enough but I don't know why collecting Council Tax from renters is a waste of time. I have to pay it - it's part of my tenancy agreement to do so and the Council wasted no time in knowing I was here.

    High turnover rental properties maybe difficult to police - but most renters would expect to pay it (why wouldn't they) and do. Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't use local services/infrastructure.

    It's a taboo word but a poll tax is actually the best solution. Tax the person.
    Overall we tax income too highly, and wealth not enough.

    Good luck with your poll tax.
    Quite. It's politically impossible, although in my opinion quite an elegant solution. And actually fair. If you're well off you pay the same as someone who may not be as much, but the flipside is that the more well-off (relatively) use local services, especially welfare, much less.

    Which is why the problem of local funding will never be addressed because it's toxic to even look at. And never will be.
    Your system would be incredibly regressive, and not solve local government funding issues.
  • Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    its actually the one bit of the announcements in the last two weeks that make sense -= there is definitely a lot of fat in public services
    There really isn’t.
    Not with UK’s demographic.

    Truss wants to shrink the state to US proportions. If she gets away with it, the effect will be terrifying on the bottom 20%.
    So now you want her to spend more?

    You could at least pretend that your critique was in any way consistent.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660

    Scott_xP said:

    Important moment here - Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke tells the Times that the “very large” welfare state needs to be trimmed. This is the clearest yet that some serious spending cuts are on the way. This is where we are headed:

    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1575957703964250113/photo/1

    Kwasi Kwarteng has said there was no alternative to his mini-Budget, in the latest sign it’s staying in full.

    “Not all the measures we announced last week will be universally popular.

    “But we had to do something different. We had no other choice.” https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/

    This is some kind of Pinochet-style hijack of government.

    They won’t get away with this.
    I've a feeling we're in Kansas now.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    This is some kind of Pinochet-style hijack of government.

    They won’t get away with this.

    Who is going to stop them?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    HYUFD said:

    London
    Lab 44%
    Con 26%
    LD 16%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 5%

    South East
    Con 52%
    Lab 37%
    Grn 6%
    Ref 3%
    LD 2%

    South West
    Lab 44%
    Con 24%
    LD 22%
    Ref 6%
    Grn 2%

    East
    Lab 66%
    Con 15%
    Grn 10%
    LD 6%
    Ref 1%

    East Midlands
    Lab 72%
    Con 19%
    Grn 7%
    Ref 1%
    LD 1%

    West Midlands
    Lab 65%
    Con 16%
    LD 9%
    Ref 5%
    Grn 3%

    Yorkshire & Humber
    Lab 76%
    Con 13%
    LD 5%
    Grn 3%
    Ref 2%

    North East
    Lab 79%
    Con 9%
    LD 7%
    Ref 3%
    Grn 1%

    North West
    Lab 55%
    Con 24%
    Grn 11%
    LD 10%
    Ref 1%

    Scotland
    SNP 47%
    Lab 34%
    Con 10%
    Grn 4%
    Ref 1%
    LD -

    Wales
    Lab 64%
    Con 23%
    PC 7%
    LD 4%

    (Omnisis; 29-30 September; 1,320)

    After Truss and Kwarteng's tax cuts for the rich mini budget, seems the Tories are now doing better in London than anywhere else apart from the South East of England. Their vote still down everywhere though. The North East figure of just 9% for the Truss Tories is abysmal compared to the 38% Boris got there in 2019.

    Kwarteng has effectively sacrificed Tory redwall MPs on the alter of IEA libertarian ideology
    Naw ken.
    "Truss Tories" is an interesting expression of HYUFD's. Obvs the Wrong Kind of/Not True Tory. Not that I blame him.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    🚨 PM admits her plans will unleash “short-term disruption” — but insists she has an “iron grip” on UK finances.

    In an exclusive article for @theSun, Truss vows not to U-turn on mini-Budget as she attempts to quell market unrest and grumbling from MPs:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19972347/liz-truss-iron-grip-uk-finances-tax-cuts/
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,089

    It will surprise nobody that I don't agree with the general tenor of @Cyclefree's thread header, but the headline is nicely done, and I do agree that more needs to be done to claw back the taxpayers money lost to Covid fraudsters. I can't help but think this will never be done by the civil service or police service, so should somehow be thrown over to private bounty hunters who make a commission on what they claim back. It would be a private sector solution, as well as a good example of trickle down economics. :smiley:

    Disagreeing with the "general tenor" is denying the evidence in front of your face. Unless in LG world all of the brilliant health and education staff are actually getting payrises worth their salt. Meanwhile you Trussites keep insisting the sky is green despite everyone being able to see it is blue, then wonder where all the votes went.
    I would like enough wealth to be created so that we can afford to pay those people what they deserve. I don't know if Truss and Kwarteng have all the answers, but at the moment, they're the only ones asking the questions.
    No, they're not. I mean, that's just complete nonsense. Vast numbers of politicians, journalists, think tanks and PB posters have been going on about growth, productivity, tax rates etc. etc. ad infinitum for years.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Important moment here - Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke tells the Times that the “very large” welfare state needs to be trimmed. This is the clearest yet that some serious spending cuts are on the way. This is where we are headed:

    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1575957703964250113/photo/1

    Kwasi Kwarteng has said there was no alternative to his mini-Budget, in the latest sign it’s staying in full.

    “Not all the measures we announced last week will be universally popular.

    “But we had to do something different. We had no other choice.” https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/

    This is some kind of Pinochet-style hijack of government.

    They won’t get away with this.
    I am not the biggest fan of Truss or Kwarteng but its not a Pinochet take over is it? He was a mass murderer
  • Scott_xP said:

    Important moment here - Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke tells the Times that the “very large” welfare state needs to be trimmed. This is the clearest yet that some serious spending cuts are on the way. This is where we are headed:

    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1575957703964250113/photo/1

    Kwasi Kwarteng has said there was no alternative to his mini-Budget, in the latest sign it’s staying in full.

    “Not all the measures we announced last week will be universally popular.

    “But we had to do something different. We had no other choice.” https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/

    A vat of popcorn large enough simply doesn't exist. The government have decided that:
    a) they have a mandate from their large majority, and
    b) they are the smartest people in the room, and
    c) people really will thank them afterwards

    So when they announce they are taking an axe to public services, to the welfare state, to disability support AND that your mortgage can go up 40% see if they care AND that the most well off not only will get oceans of cash but deserve it AND if you will struggle cos of this then WORK HARDER.

    Labour's lead could be 60 points. For all that Leon frets about Putin nuking the UK, surely the source of the nuking is Truss? She is setting out to absolutely destroy this country and has this bonkers idea that people will thank her for it.

    Tory MPs. Time for her to be politically Zhukov'd.
  • Why didn't they mention spending cuts in the statement last week? Surely that would have helped reassure the markets over the level of borrowing? Unless they are just trying to get around their own gross incompetence and regard the tax cuts as non-negotiable.

    More worrying still, the word on the Tory backbenches is that they will work with Labour to ditch the 45p cut. A move that will help to the tune of all of £2bn. I'm also seeing a fair bit of the Tory commentariat stressing the importance of 'fairness' and that it would be better to keep the 45p rate? Why are they focusing on this. It appears as though the pension funds were in a state of cardiac arrest two days ago and they're arguing over such a small part of the puzzle. Why?

    I fear there is a certain momentum in the Tories to present the market reaction as a fait accompli, we'll have to make massive spending cuts but what we'll do is restore the 45p rate so the public can see we are committed to fairness. Labour have not got themselves in a good position over this, focusing far too much on tax cuts for the rich. If they want a well maintained public realm you don't go cutting income tax.

    I only hope that the continuing dire polls bring about a change in government.

    Why not mention the cuts? Because crashing the economy is the supposed politically cover for the cuts. "The bad banker made me do it"
  • On topic, I agree @Cyclefree

    Ditch the nutcase. She should never have got there in the first place.

    When you look back at your political statements during this time; I predict you'll feel rather embarrassed. I certainly feel embarrassed for you.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited September 2022

    Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    its actually the one bit of the announcements in the last two weeks that make sense -= there is definitely a lot of fat in public services
    There really isn’t.
    Not with UK’s demographic.

    Truss wants to shrink the state to US proportions. If she gets away with it, the effect will be terrifying on the bottom 20%.
    So now you want her to spend more?

    You could at least pretend that your critique was in any way consistent.
    I’m very broadly aligned with where Labour is.

    Higher borrowing, yes, but money to be spent on investment to actually grow the economy as opposed to giveaways for the richest. Aim to maintain overall debt levels over a five year window or similar.

    The only area I “agree” with Truss is on supply side reforms, but I suspect I strongly disagree with her on the detail - if she ever provides any.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Tory MPs. Time for her to be politically Zhukov'd.

    This is the thrust of the Matthew Parris article linked upthread.

    I am not sure they have the stones for it.

    The next election is lost.

    2 years to collect their paycheque and line up some consulting gigs...
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    FPT: Another problem caused by Putin's invasion of Ukraine: "Nuclear fission startup TerraPower, founded and chaired by Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates, has raised $750 million to develop advanced nuclear reactors to serve as alternatives to the light-water reactors that make up the vast majority of the world’s civilian nuclear fleet. But cash alone won’t be enough to get the startup over the many hurdles that stand in its way.
    . . .
    One big new problem for TerraPower emerged earlier this year: its fuel source. The only facility currently able to supply commercial quantities of HALEU is in Russia. That wasn’t a great situation even before Russia invaded Ukraine. Now that the war in Ukraine has been grinding on for six months and shows no signs of resolution, relying on fuel sourced from Russia is untenable. "
    source: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/nuclear/bill-gates-nuclear-startup-wins-750m-loses-sole-fuel-source

    I loved the idea of turning Russian nuclear weapons into electricity for Americans.

    I assume another fuel source can be developed, probably here in the US -- but doing so will delay the plant.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Truss tells Sun readers: "This government is on your side.
    "Together, we will get through this and put Britain on the path to long-term success."
    But hinted she could cut benefits, saying: "I’m on the side of people who work hard."

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19972195/liz-truss-bills-government-on-your-side?utm_source=sharebar_app&utm_medium=sharebar_app&utm_campaign=sharebar_app_article
  • Scott_xP said:

    Important moment here - Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke tells the Times that the “very large” welfare state needs to be trimmed. This is the clearest yet that some serious spending cuts are on the way. This is where we are headed:

    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1575957703964250113/photo/1

    Kwasi Kwarteng has said there was no alternative to his mini-Budget, in the latest sign it’s staying in full.

    “Not all the measures we announced last week will be universally popular.

    “But we had to do something different. We had no other choice.” https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/

    This is some kind of Pinochet-style hijack of government.

    They won’t get away with this.
    I am not the biggest fan of Truss or Kwarteng but its not a Pinochet take over is it? He was a mass murderer
    Pinochet is a byword for shock fiscal therapy.
    I accept that T-K are unlikely to round and up and kill their ideological enemies.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Scott_xP said:

    Important moment here - Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke tells the Times that the “very large” welfare state needs to be trimmed. This is the clearest yet that some serious spending cuts are on the way. This is where we are headed:

    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1575957703964250113/photo/1

    Kwasi Kwarteng has said there was no alternative to his mini-Budget, in the latest sign it’s staying in full.

    “Not all the measures we announced last week will be universally popular.

    “But we had to do something different. We had no other choice.” https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/

    This is some kind of Pinochet-style hijack of government.

    They won’t get away with this.
    I am not the biggest fan of Truss or Kwarteng but its not a Pinochet take over is it? He was a mass murderer
    You might find it a somewhat closer comparison than you think, given the likely effects on food, housing and heating for the poor.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,158
    V good article @Cyclefree. I've bet against Truss being ditched before the GE but I'd be happy to lose that one.
  • Key Truss ally tells Times about new age of austerity with slashes to "the very large" welfare budget and "trim the fat" of public services and government departments.

    This is scorched earth.

    Burn the public realm to the ground before they lose 200-odd seats and are out for a generation.

    Madness. Pure madness.


    NB: But I am sure the triple lock will be safe.

    its actually the one bit of the announcements in the last two weeks that make sense -= there is definitely a lot of fat in public services
    There really isn’t.
    Not with UK’s demographic.

    Truss wants to shrink the state to US proportions. If she gets away with it, the effect will be terrifying on the bottom 20%.
    So now you want her to spend more?

    You could at least pretend that your critique was in any way consistent.
    I’m very broadly aligned with where Labour is.

    Higher borrowing, yes, but money to be spent on investment to actually grow the economy as opposed to giveaways for the richest.

    The only area I “agree” with Truss is on supply side reforms, but I suspect I strongly disagree with her on the detail - if she ever provides any.
    So the supply side stuff has been the usual hocus pocus i.e. bonfire of red tape (never happens cos it is almost all necessary), vocational training reform (never happens even after decades of saying it), planning reform (yeh, right, LOL).

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,333
    Aren't there any songs? I thought there going to be songs
  • All of this. Thank you Cyclefree, you've spoken for all of us.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    As part of the government's efficiency drive, levelling up the economy has now become levelling the economy. More as we get it.
    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1575961238840160258
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited September 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    This is some kind of Pinochet-style hijack of government.

    They won’t get away with this.

    Who is going to stop them?
    Dunno.
    But she is failing to bring any real constituency with her.

    Thatcher had Mondeo Man etc.

    Truss has just blown up their mortgages, is going to put them on a zero hours contract, and has explained that they can fuck off unless they earn over £155k.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Important moment here - Levelling Up Secretary Simon Clarke tells the Times that the “very large” welfare state needs to be trimmed. This is the clearest yet that some serious spending cuts are on the way. This is where we are headed:

    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1575957703964250113/photo/1

    Kwasi Kwarteng has said there was no alternative to his mini-Budget, in the latest sign it’s staying in full.

    “Not all the measures we announced last week will be universally popular.

    “But we had to do something different. We had no other choice.” https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/30/kwasi-kwarteng-promise-bring-spending-control/

    Levelling Up Secretary renamed Levelling Down Secretary.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Dunno.
    But she is failing to bring any real constituency with her.

    The headbangers will vote for it
  • Scott_xP said:

    Truss tells Sun readers: "This government is on your side.
    "Together, we will get through this and put Britain on the path to long-term success."
    But hinted she could cut benefits, saying: "I’m on the side of people who work hard."

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19972195/liz-truss-bills-government-on-your-side?utm_source=sharebar_app&utm_medium=sharebar_app&utm_campaign=sharebar_app_article

    Huge numbers of UC benefit claimants are working full time.

  • Bravo, @Cyclefree , bravo.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
    Fund local government properly.
    Reduce income tax accordingly.
    Renters no longer pay council tax, and landlord’s ability to recover from tenants will be limited by what the market will bear.
    Why shouldn't renters pay Council tax? They use local services the same as everyone else. And before you answer - I rent.

    What we might need is say, a local tax where everyone pays the same amount, or an amount as a % of their income. An induvial local tax....?
    Council tax administration is a nightmare.
    Collecting tax from renters is a total waste of time.

    Allocate a share of VAT to local services if you want.
    Fair enough but I don't know why collecting Council Tax from renters is a waste of time. I have to pay it - it's part of my tenancy agreement to do so and the Council wasted no time in knowing I was here.

    High turnover rental properties maybe difficult to police - but most renters would expect to pay it (why wouldn't they) and do. Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't use local services/infrastructure.

    It's a taboo word but a poll tax is actually the best solution. Tax the person.
    Overall we tax income too highly, and wealth not enough.

    Good luck with your poll tax.
    Quite. It's politically impossible, although in my opinion quite an elegant solution. And actually fair. If you're well off you pay the same as someone who may not be as much, but the flipside is that the more well-off (relatively) use local services, especially welfare, much less.

    Which is why the problem of local funding will never be addressed because it's toxic to even look at. And never will be.
    Your system would be incredibly regressive, and not solve local government funding issues.
    I'll just have to disagree and leave it there. How it is in any way equitable for people who wear the sin of being "rich" (whatever that means and how you measure it) to pay disproportionately more for services they don't/mostly don't use, whilst those that use them the most pay the minimum, or nothing, is madness. And the anthesis of "fair".

    The terms "regressive" and "progressive" are complete crap. One persons "progressive" is the other persons "regressive" and vice-versa.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Dunno.
    But she is failing to bring any real constituency with her.

    The headbangers will vote for it
    There’s not enough of them.

    Truss managed to get the RSPB of all people up in arms before she even opened her gob.
    Mild mannered middle Britain already want to hang the witch.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Truss tells Sun readers: "This government is on your side.
    "Together, we will get through this and put Britain on the path to long-term success."
    But hinted she could cut benefits, saying: "I’m on the side of people who work hard."

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19972195/liz-truss-bills-government-on-your-side?utm_source=sharebar_app&utm_medium=sharebar_app&utm_campaign=sharebar_app_article

    Huge numbers of UC benefit claimants are working full time.

    They're obviously not working hard enough, otherwise they'd be rich, right?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Scott_xP said:

    Truss tells Sun readers: "This government is on your side.
    "Together, we will get through this and put Britain on the path to long-term success."
    But hinted she could cut benefits, saying: "I’m on the side of people who work hard."

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19972195/liz-truss-bills-government-on-your-side?utm_source=sharebar_app&utm_medium=sharebar_app&utm_campaign=sharebar_app_article

    Omfg ! Many of those on benefits are actually working . It’s despicable to add more misery onto the poorest.

    My loathing for Truss continues to rocket .
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited September 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Dunno.
    But she is failing to bring any real constituency with her.

    The headbangers will vote for it
    There’s not enough of them.

    Truss managed to get the RSPB of all people up in arms before she even opened her gob.
    Mild mannered middle Britain already want to hang the witch.
    And the National Trust.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    ydoethur said:

    POTUS Jimmy Carter is 98 tomorrow.

    is he the oldest ever former President or UK prime minister?
    Yes. Runners up are James Callaghan (died the day before his 93rd birthday) and George H. Bush (94).

    Carter deserves some sort of record. He was a lousy president in many ways, but was probably also the single most decent and well-meaning man ever to be President and has done far more good than almost any other human in the years since his defeat.
    He was also quite a good president in some ways.


  • stodge said:

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
    Fund local government properly.
    Reduce income tax accordingly.
    Renters no longer pay council tax, and landlord’s ability to recover from tenants will be limited by what the market will bear.
    Why shouldn't renters pay Council tax? They use local services the same as everyone else. And before you answer - I rent.

    What we might need is say, a local tax where everyone pays the same amount, or an amount as a % of their income. An induvial local tax....?
    Council tax administration is a nightmare.
    Collecting tax from renters is a total waste of time.

    Allocate a share of VAT to local services if you want.
    Fair enough but I don't know why collecting Council Tax from renters is a waste of time. I have to pay it - it's part of my tenancy agreement to do so and the Council wasted no time in knowing I was here.

    High turnover rental properties maybe difficult to police - but most renters would expect to pay it (why wouldn't they) and do. Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't use local services/infrastructure.

    It's a taboo word but a poll tax is actually the best solution. Tax the person.
    Overall we tax income too highly, and wealth not enough.

    Good luck with your poll tax.
    Quite. It's politically impossible, although in my opinion quite an elegant solution. And actually fair. If you're well off you pay the same as someone who may not be as much, but the flipside is that the more well-off (relatively) use local services, especially welfare, much less.

    Which is why the problem of local funding will never be addressed because it's toxic to even look at. And never will be.
    Your system would be incredibly regressive, and not solve local government funding issues.
    I'll just have to disagree and leave it there. How it is in any way equitable for people who wear the sin of being "rich" (whatever that means and how you measure it) to pay disproportionately more for services they don't/mostly don't use, whilst those that use them the most pay the minimum, or nothing, is madness. And the anthesis of "fair".

    The terms "regressive" and "progressive" are complete crap. One persons "progressive" is the other persons "regressive" and vice-versa.
    I mean, since you don’t believe the words “fair”, “rich” or “progressive” have any worthwhile meaning you can be safely ignored.

    File under loon.

  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    FPT - for which, apologies


    1. Scrap council tax and do a 2% annual property tax already, payable by estates or on sale if you can’t pay in the year.

    2. Inheritance tax at 20% for all non property assets.

    On point 1, are we talking about an annual valuation of every property or simply applying an inflationary uplift base don he house price index in a particular area.

    So, let's say Stodge Towers is worth £500k - I would therefore pay £10k per year in property tax. That's well in front of Council Tax. What would you do with commercial property - apply a similar figure?

    What about Land Value Taxation ( a good old LD policy) rather than a property tax? Tax the land your property is on rather than the property so for a block of flats the freeholder gets to pay for the land while the leaseholders are taxed on their property.

    Reduce the tax to 1%, include land and think about commercial property.
    Annual appraisal.
    Yes, all property treated equally.
    Yes, you would pay £10k. Tough.
    The current Council Tax raises £36.3 billion as far as I can recall. If I have to pay approximately 9x what I pay in Council Tax through your new Property Tax the total amount raised would be in the region of £325 billion.

    That's not a small amount - how would that be re-allocated to local authorities? Would this mitigate other forms of taxation - Mrs Stodge might well argue if we have to pay so much more in Property Tax we'll be spending less in other areas which will impact other tax receipts (VAT for example as spending is reduced).

    Presumably rents would rise sharply as landlords would seek to recover their Property Tax costs from tenants.

    We've still not considered commercial property and unused or undeveloped land
    Fund local government properly.
    Reduce income tax accordingly.
    Renters no longer pay council tax, and landlord’s ability to recover from tenants will be limited by what the market will bear.
    Why shouldn't renters pay Council tax? They use local services the same as everyone else. And before you answer - I rent.

    What we might need is say, a local tax where everyone pays the same amount, or an amount as a % of their income. An induvial local tax....?
    Council tax administration is a nightmare.
    Collecting tax from renters is a total waste of time.

    Allocate a share of VAT to local services if you want.
    Fair enough but I don't know why collecting Council Tax from renters is a waste of time. I have to pay it - it's part of my tenancy agreement to do so and the Council wasted no time in knowing I was here.

    High turnover rental properties maybe difficult to police - but most renters would expect to pay it (why wouldn't they) and do. Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't use local services/infrastructure.

    It's a taboo word but a poll tax is actually the best solution. Tax the person.
    Overall we tax income too highly, and wealth not enough.

    Good luck with your poll tax.
    Quite. It's politically impossible, although in my opinion quite an elegant solution. And actually fair. If you're well off you pay the same as someone who may not be as much, but the flipside is that the more well-off (relatively) use local services, especially welfare, much less.

    Which is why the problem of local funding will never be addressed because it's toxic to even look at. And never will be.
    Your system would be incredibly regressive, and not solve local government funding issues.
    I'll just have to disagree and leave it there. How it is in any way equitable for people who wear the sin of being "rich" (whatever that means and how you measure it) to pay disproportionately more for services they don't/mostly don't use, whilst those that use them the most pay the minimum, or nothing, is madness. And the anthesis of "fair".

    The terms "regressive" and "progressive" are complete crap. One persons "progressive" is the other persons "regressive" and vice-versa.
    I mean, since you don’t believe the words “fair”, “rich” or “progressive” have any worthwhile meaning you can be safely ignored.

    File under loon.

    They don't have a true meaning - they're all relative terms.

    File under idiot.
This discussion has been closed.