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A damning attack on Truss from ConservativeHome – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    Logic fail because it implies all countries having WMDs makes for a safer world.

    But you do have a point. Tricky issue. No easy answers.

    I'd ditch trident. It fails the cost benefit test for me.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Eabhal said:

    England
    Lab 53%
    Con 32%
    LD 11%

    Scotland
    SNP 51%
    SLab 29%
    SCon 11%
    SLD 7%

    Wales
    WLab 53%
    WLD 18%
    WCon 16%
    PC 12%

    (Survation; 29 September; 1,092)

    Sub-samples twice in one afternoon!
    You spoilt bastards!

    I get criticised if I post too few (cherry-picking).
    I get criticised if I post too many (bloody jocks).
    If you just post a subsample of the subsamples you should be ok.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    A Scottish Nationalist?
    Come now, not broad enough.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/03/snp-and-labour-msps-unite-to-vote-against-trident-renewal
  • Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Back in February at the start of the war I ran a location assessment to work out where to go in the event nuclear war looked likely, and what the trigger would be.

    For the trigger, unless your job and family situation allows, it’s not feasible to go very early and sit it out in a far flung location. We need to late enough that we’re not blowing our children’s schooling or my job.

    But leave it too late and you’re in the rush with millions of others and might struggle to make it out. Our current trigger is detonation of a tactical nuke by Putin.

    Location wise I followed the scorecard approach I take at work when I’m advising multinationals on where to put a new operation. Variables were speed and cost to get there and back, Covid and visa entry requirements, number of flights per week, agricultural self sufficiency, cost and standard of living, distance from blast and fallout, and avoiding flight paths over potential targets.

    Narrowed it down to Morocco or Ireland. Asia involved flying over CIS and E Europe and was too restrictive on entry requirements. S America also too difficult with visas and Covid rules for a quick getaway, and expensive to get to and back.

    Morocco was first choice. I think on balance it still is, but Ireland still in the running.

    I'd not survive long anyway, because... medical supplies.

    So, we'd sit here in rural Dorset and drink our best wine first, until fall-out, starvation, marauding refugees from the cities, or the end of said medical supplies finished us off.

    But cheer up - it's not going to happen. Putin's bluffing.
    Trouble is, an awful lot of well-informed people on social media and elsewhere think Putin might not be bluffing. The short-arse Russian is in deep shit, and also pretty crazy now
    Who are these people? With all respect Leon you aren't averse to hysteria and I'm sure there are a fair few people making a living from spreading it.

    I'm strangely relaxed about the prospect of armageddon. As a single man I'm probably quite expendable and prepared to take the risk of staring down Mr Putin. I do have nieces and nephews though which gives me pause for thought.

    As for locations, have you considered Penarth? It's raining cats and dogs down this way but you'd be safe for a while at least unless Vlad drops the big one on Wales.
    @leon is a couple of years older than me, so would have spent his teens in the latter stages of the cold war. He must have been a permanent gibbering wreck, cacking his pants every time Frankie Goes to Hollywood's Two Tribes came on the radio, or Sting sang his lament about how he hoped Russians loved their children too (which let's face it is now in some doubt)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Eabhal said:

    England
    Lab 53%
    Con 32%
    LD 11%

    Scotland
    SNP 51%
    SLab 29%
    SCon 11%
    SLD 7%

    Wales
    WLab 53%
    WLD 18%
    WCon 16%
    PC 12%

    (Survation; 29 September; 1,092)

    Sub-samples twice in one afternoon!
    You spoilt bastards!

    I get criticised if I post too few (cherry-picking).
    I get criticised if I post too many (bloody jocks).
    If you just post a subsample of the subsamples you should be ok.
    Or a metasubsample.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    glw said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Do you think Ukraine became a safer place to be by giving up their nuclear weapons?
    No.

    But I asked a question first.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Back in February at the start of the war I ran a location assessment to work out where to go in the event nuclear war looked likely, and what the trigger would be.

    For the trigger, unless your job and family situation allows, it’s not feasible to go very early and sit it out in a far flung location. We need to late enough that we’re not blowing our children’s schooling or my job.

    But leave it too late and you’re in the rush with millions of others and might struggle to make it out. Our current trigger is detonation of a tactical nuke by Putin.

    Location wise I followed the scorecard approach I take at work when I’m advising multinationals on where to put a new operation. Variables were speed and cost to get there and back, Covid and visa entry requirements, number of flights per week, agricultural self sufficiency, cost and standard of living, distance from blast and fallout, and avoiding flight paths over potential targets.

    Narrowed it down to Morocco or Ireland. Asia involved flying over CIS and E Europe and was too restrictive on entry requirements. S America also too difficult with visas and Covid rules for a quick getaway, and expensive to get to and back.

    Morocco was first choice. I think on balance it still is, but Ireland still in the running.

    I'd not survive long anyway, because... medical supplies.

    So, we'd sit here in rural Dorset and drink our best wine first, until fall-out, starvation, marauding refugees from the cities, or the end of said medical supplies finished us off.

    But cheer up - it's not going to happen. Putin's bluffing.
    Trouble is, an awful lot of well-informed people on social media and elsewhere think Putin might not be bluffing. The short-arse Russian is in deep shit, and also pretty crazy now
    Who are these people? With all respect Leon you aren't averse to hysteria and I'm sure there are a fair few people making a living from spreading it.

    I'm strangely relaxed about the prospect of armageddon. As a single man I'm probably quite expendable and prepared to take the risk of staring down Mr Putin. I do have nieces and nephews though which gives me pause for thought.

    As for locations, have you considered Penarth? It's raining cats and dogs down this way but you'd be safe for a while at least unless Vlad drops the big one on Wales.
    It's not hysterical to be a tad concerned when proper experts are full of the fear

    https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/how-the-war-in-ukraine-might-end

    "In recent years, a small group of scholars has focussed on war-termination theory. They see reason to fear the possible outcomes in Ukraine."

    Excellent article. TLDR: the likely outcomes are either pretty bleak, or REALLY bleak
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited September 2022
    I guess if Russia fire the ICBMs we will find out if they really did pull the funding from SDI
  • It was easily missed, amidst all the other news that this Government has generated over the past week, but the Court of Appeal yesterday afforded an important victory to Suella Braverman.

    As Attorney General, she asked it to review the judgement in the ‘Colston Four’ trial, which saw four vandals acquitted on the grounds that tearing down a public artwork was protected under human rights legislation…..

    In the wake of the ruling, Braverman used powers conferred on the Attorney General by Parliament to refer the case to the Court of Appeal. Not to overturn the actual judgement, but to clarify the law.

    This move was widely ridiculed by legal Twitter, which rarely passed over an opportunity to discredit itself where Braverman was concerned. One legal luminary compared her to a cleaner; Jolyon Maugham went so far as to compare her legal acumen to that of a dog……

    Yet the Court of Appeal agreed with Braverman; convicting someone for public vandalism would not, in fact, constitute an unacceptable breach of their right to protest.

    This case has been a useful reminder both of how skewed against the Government the legal commentariat generally is, and that it is nonetheless worth the effort of taking them on.

    https://conservativehome.com/2022/09/29/why-could-so-few-legal-commentators-see-that-braverman-was-right-about-the-colston-four/

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    Logic fail because it implies all countries having WMDs makes for a safer world.

    But you do have a point. Tricky issue. No easy answers.

    I'd ditch trident. It fails the cost benefit test for me.
    idiot
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    As luck would have it I am just looking at my insurance policy.

    There is no cover for:

    10) War, terrorism, radioactive contamination and pressure waves
    Any claim resulting directly or indirectly from or in connection with:
    a) war, terrorism, invasion, act of foreign enemy, hostilities or warlike operations
    (whether war be declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection,
    uprising, military or usurped power;
    b) ionising radiation or contamination by radioactivity from any nuclear fuel or any
    nuclear waste from the combustion of nuclear fuel;
    c) the radioactive, toxic, explosive or other hazardous properties of any explosive
    nuclear assembly or nuclear component of it;
    d) pressure waves caused by aircraft or other aerial devices travelling at sonic or
    supersonic speed.

    It's against the rules of Lloyd's and I assume also the companies market to write land based war risks.
    You can buy war-on-land coverage. Just not in a current war zone.
    Not at Lloyd's unless the rules have changed
    Lloyd's writes War and Terrorism coverage, either separately or combined, all the time - including sabotage (if you want). In marine, non-marine and aviation markets. It has done since it was founded. More-or-less.

    War-on-land is a commonly bought coverage for cargo risks for example. Lloyd's is not prevented from writing this at all. In fact there are underwriters specialising in it. Lloyd's cannot write coverage for radioactive contamination either from terror or war, but that's pretty much the only limit.

    Not sure why you think Lloyd's is banned from writing W&T.

    Someone ought to tell these people then.

    https://www.beazley.com/london_market/political_risks_and_contingency/terrorism.html
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    Logic fail because it implies all countries having WMDs makes for a safer world.

    But you do have a point. Tricky issue. No easy answers.

    I'd ditch trident. It fails the cost benefit test for me.
    But we return to Leon's previous point. Would Ukraine be in the mess it is now if it had a huge stockpile of strategic nuclear weapons, ready to exterminate all life in Russia the nanosecond that it tried to invade?

    The Russia-Ukraine War is, alas, the best advertisement for nuclear proliferation ever made.
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    Scott_xP said:

    darkage said:

    This is so stupid. It is exhausting.

    Liz Truss seems to have a basic lack of knowledge about how the world works.

    I am seriously wondering if we are living through the complete breakdown of government.

    She is slavishly following this economic model

    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1575419240592580608
    I think she is being advised by @BartholomewRoberts. For free obv.
    In that case, she's paying too much for the advice.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Back in February at the start of the war I ran a location assessment to work out where to go in the event nuclear war looked likely, and what the trigger would be.

    For the trigger, unless your job and family situation allows, it’s not feasible to go very early and sit it out in a far flung location. We need to late enough that we’re not blowing our children’s schooling or my job.

    But leave it too late and you’re in the rush with millions of others and might struggle to make it out. Our current trigger is detonation of a tactical nuke by Putin.

    Location wise I followed the scorecard approach I take at work when I’m advising multinationals on where to put a new operation. Variables were speed and cost to get there and back, Covid and visa entry requirements, number of flights per week, agricultural self sufficiency, cost and standard of living, distance from blast and fallout, and avoiding flight paths over potential targets.

    Narrowed it down to Morocco or Ireland. Asia involved flying over CIS and E Europe and was too restrictive on entry requirements. S America also too difficult with visas and Covid rules for a quick getaway, and expensive to get to and back.

    Morocco was first choice. I think on balance it still is, but Ireland still in the running.

    I'd not survive long anyway, because... medical supplies.

    So, we'd sit here in rural Dorset and drink our best wine first, until fall-out, starvation, marauding refugees from the cities, or the end of said medical supplies finished us off.

    But cheer up - it's not going to happen. Putin's bluffing.
    Trouble is, an awful lot of well-informed people on social media and elsewhere think Putin might not be bluffing. The short-arse Russian is in deep shit, and also pretty crazy now
    Who are these people? With all respect Leon you aren't averse to hysteria and I'm sure there are a fair few people making a living from spreading it.

    I'm strangely relaxed about the prospect of armageddon. As a single man I'm probably quite expendable and prepared to take the risk of staring down Mr Putin. I do have nieces and nephews though which gives me pause for thought.

    As for locations, have you considered Penarth? It's raining cats and dogs down this way but you'd be safe for a while at least unless Vlad drops the big one on Wales.
    Scilly Isles?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Back in February at the start of the war I ran a location assessment to work out where to go in the event nuclear war looked likely, and what the trigger would be.

    For the trigger, unless your job and family situation allows, it’s not feasible to go very early and sit it out in a far flung location. We need to late enough that we’re not blowing our children’s schooling or my job.

    But leave it too late and you’re in the rush with millions of others and might struggle to make it out. Our current trigger is detonation of a tactical nuke by Putin.

    Location wise I followed the scorecard approach I take at work when I’m advising multinationals on where to put a new operation. Variables were speed and cost to get there and back, Covid and visa entry requirements, number of flights per week, agricultural self sufficiency, cost and standard of living, distance from blast and fallout, and avoiding flight paths over potential targets.

    Narrowed it down to Morocco or Ireland. Asia involved flying over CIS and E Europe and was too restrictive on entry requirements. S America also too difficult with visas and Covid rules for a quick getaway, and expensive to get to and back.

    Morocco was first choice. I think on balance it still is, but Ireland still in the running.

    I'd not survive long anyway, because... medical supplies.

    So, we'd sit here in rural Dorset and drink our best wine first, until fall-out, starvation, marauding refugees from the cities, or the end of said medical supplies finished us off.

    But cheer up - it's not going to happen. Putin's bluffing.
    Trouble is, an awful lot of well-informed people on social media and elsewhere think Putin might not be bluffing. The short-arse Russian is in deep shit, and also pretty crazy now
    Who are these people? With all respect Leon you aren't averse to hysteria and I'm sure there are a fair few people making a living from spreading it.

    I'm strangely relaxed about the prospect of armageddon. As a single man I'm probably quite expendable and prepared to take the risk of staring down Mr Putin. I do have nieces and nephews though which gives me pause for thought.

    As for locations, have you considered Penarth? It's raining cats and dogs down this way but you'd be safe for a while at least unless Vlad drops the big one on Wales.
    @leon is a couple of years older than me, so would have spent his teens in the latter stages of the cold war. He must have been a permanent gibbering wreck, cacking his pants every time Frankie Goes to Hollywood's Two Tribes came on the radio, or Sting sang his lament about how he hoped Russians loved their children too (which let's face it is now in some doubt)
    Yes I do personally recall the Cold War

    I remember Duck and Cover. And that silent shrill sense of Eeek, in the back of your mind. What if they drop the bomb? It was a persistent and perturbing background murmur. Like a hummadruz

    http://www.exploringtheuncanny.com/hummadruz/


    And this new emergency feels magnitudes worse and more unnerving, because it has spiralled out of nowhere in a world already thrown out of kilter by plague. I do NOT remember the Cuban Missile Crisis - I'm not that old - but I suspect this is even more perilous a moment than that
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,583
    I too believe that the solution to the problem of poor and deteriorating public services and declining real income for most people is economic growth. I think most people will agree.

    The problem is clearly not one of demand, otherwise there would not be inflation. So cutting taxes is not an answer.

    The problem is supply, in particular lack of labour and problems with the supply chain.
    The answer is freedom of movement and removing barriers to the supply chain, in other words rejoining the EU. Problem solved.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    As luck would have it I am just looking at my insurance policy.

    There is no cover for:

    10) War, terrorism, radioactive contamination and pressure waves
    Any claim resulting directly or indirectly from or in connection with:
    a) war, terrorism, invasion, act of foreign enemy, hostilities or warlike operations
    (whether war be declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection,
    uprising, military or usurped power;
    b) ionising radiation or contamination by radioactivity from any nuclear fuel or any
    nuclear waste from the combustion of nuclear fuel;
    c) the radioactive, toxic, explosive or other hazardous properties of any explosive
    nuclear assembly or nuclear component of it;
    d) pressure waves caused by aircraft or other aerial devices travelling at sonic or
    supersonic speed.

    It's against the rules of Lloyd's and I assume also the companies market to write land based war risks.
    You can buy war-on-land coverage. Just not in a current war zone.
    Not at Lloyd's unless the rules have changed
    Lloyd's writes War and Terrorism coverage, either separately or combined, all the time - including sabotage (if you want). In marine, non-marine and aviation markets. It has done since it was founded. More-or-less.

    War-on-land is a commonly bought coverage for cargo risks for example. Lloyd's is not prevented from writing this at all. In fact there are underwriters specialising in it. Lloyd's cannot write coverage for radioactive contamination either from terror or war, but that's pretty much the only limit.

    Not sure why you think Lloyd's is banned from writing W&T.

    Someone ought to tell these people then.

    https://www.beazley.com/london_market/political_risks_and_contingency/terrorism.html
    The war in Malaya was called an emergency because insurers wouldn't have paid out to plantation owners had it been acknowleged as a war.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Barnesian said:

    I too believe that the solution to the problem of poor and deteriorating public services and declining real income for most people is economic growth. I think most people will agree.

    The problem is clearly not one of demand, otherwise there would not be inflation. So cutting taxes is not an answer.

    The problem is supply, in particular lack of labour and problems with the supply chain.
    The answer is freedom of movement and removing barriers to the supply chain, in other words rejoining the EU. Problem solved.

    Problem reduced a bit, not cured judging by figures from various EU nation states.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,841
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    philiph said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Back in February at the start of the war I ran a location assessment to work out where to go in the event nuclear war looked likely, and what the trigger would be.

    For the trigger, unless your job and family situation allows, it’s not feasible to go very early and sit it out in a far flung location. We need to late enough that we’re not blowing our children’s schooling or my job.

    But leave it too late and you’re in the rush with millions of others and might struggle to make it out. Our current trigger is detonation of a tactical nuke by Putin.

    Location wise I followed the scorecard approach I take at work when I’m advising multinationals on where to put a new operation. Variables were speed and cost to get there and back, Covid and visa entry requirements, number of flights per week, agricultural self sufficiency, cost and standard of living, distance from blast and fallout, and avoiding flight paths over potential targets.

    Narrowed it down to Morocco or Ireland. Asia involved flying over CIS and E Europe and was too restrictive on entry requirements. S America also too difficult with visas and Covid rules for a quick getaway, and expensive to get to and back.

    Morocco was first choice. I think on balance it still is, but Ireland still in the running.

    I'd not survive long anyway, because... medical supplies.

    So, we'd sit here in rural Dorset and drink our best wine first, until fall-out, starvation, marauding refugees from the cities, or the end of said medical supplies finished us off.

    But cheer up - it's not going to happen. Putin's bluffing.
    Trouble is, an awful lot of well-informed people on social media and elsewhere think Putin might not be bluffing. The short-arse Russian is in deep shit, and also pretty crazy now
    Who are these people? With all respect Leon you aren't averse to hysteria and I'm sure there are a fair few people making a living from spreading it.

    I'm strangely relaxed about the prospect of armageddon. As a single man I'm probably quite expendable and prepared to take the risk of staring down Mr Putin. I do have nieces and nephews though which gives me pause for thought.

    As for locations, have you considered Penarth? It's raining cats and dogs down this way but you'd be safe for a while at least unless Vlad drops the big one on Wales.
    Scilly Isles?
    Food running out will be an issue here if its a major tits up on the mainland
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Agreeable Doomsday lunch at the Grouch, tho

    Bruschetta with stracchino cheese, squash, chestnuts, crispy sage

    Vitello tonnato, tuna, capers & anchovies sauce, quail eggs!

    And now a superb Wehlener Riesling dessert wine

    if I die today I die well fed

    Ideally we hang on til Wednesday for Armageddon because I've got La Dame de Pic on Tuesday.
    Could we make it Thursday, please? Meeting a friend for lunch on Wednesday.
    Oh jeez are we putting our bids in. Mon/Tues I'm in Paris; Thurs I have a drinks, then Friday off for the weekend.

    So I have a window I suppose on Weds but if people are busy that night then I'm happy to bump it to next week.
    What about my cunningly delayed house move?
    We have an ideal diversion planned for Monday. We're off to hear Max Hastings talk about the Cuban Missile Crisis.
    Should be good though. Very interesting and very topical. Not to succumb to hyperbolic doomcasting - as if - but this does look a slightly precarious situation. Putin is attempting nuclear blackmail and at same time giving America no choice but to not give in to it. What a bad mad man.
    If there is a discussion afterwards, it will be interesting to hear his views on the current situation.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    As luck would have it I am just looking at my insurance policy.

    There is no cover for:

    10) War, terrorism, radioactive contamination and pressure waves
    Any claim resulting directly or indirectly from or in connection with:
    a) war, terrorism, invasion, act of foreign enemy, hostilities or warlike operations
    (whether war be declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection,
    uprising, military or usurped power;
    b) ionising radiation or contamination by radioactivity from any nuclear fuel or any
    nuclear waste from the combustion of nuclear fuel;
    c) the radioactive, toxic, explosive or other hazardous properties of any explosive
    nuclear assembly or nuclear component of it;
    d) pressure waves caused by aircraft or other aerial devices travelling at sonic or
    supersonic speed.

    It's against the rules of Lloyd's and I assume also the companies market to write land based war risks.
    You can buy war-on-land coverage. Just not in a current war zone.
    Not at Lloyd's unless the rules have changed
    Lloyd's writes War and Terrorism coverage, either separately or combined, all the time - including sabotage (if you want). In marine, non-marine and aviation markets. It has done since it was founded. More-or-less.

    War-on-land is a commonly bought coverage for cargo risks for example. Lloyd's is not prevented from writing this at all. In fact there are underwriters specialising in it. Lloyd's cannot write coverage for radioactive contamination either from terror or war, but that's pretty much the only limit.

    Not sure why you think Lloyd's is banned from writing W&T.

    Someone ought to tell these people then.

    https://www.beazley.com/london_market/political_risks_and_contingency/terrorism.html
    The war in Malaya was called an emergency because insurers wouldn't have paid out to plantation owners had it been acknowleged as a war.
    Because a majority of policyholders would not have bought stand-alone war coverage and had an exclusion presumably.

    The fact remains Lloyd's writes war coverage - and terrorism. And even Kidnap and Ransom if you so wish. You just have to buy it.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Back in February at the start of the war I ran a location assessment to work out where to go in the event nuclear war looked likely, and what the trigger would be.

    For the trigger, unless your job and family situation allows, it’s not feasible to go very early and sit it out in a far flung location. We need to late enough that we’re not blowing our children’s schooling or my job.

    But leave it too late and you’re in the rush with millions of others and might struggle to make it out. Our current trigger is detonation of a tactical nuke by Putin.

    Location wise I followed the scorecard approach I take at work when I’m advising multinationals on where to put a new operation. Variables were speed and cost to get there and back, Covid and visa entry requirements, number of flights per week, agricultural self sufficiency, cost and standard of living, distance from blast and fallout, and avoiding flight paths over potential targets.

    Narrowed it down to Morocco or Ireland. Asia involved flying over CIS and E Europe and was too restrictive on entry requirements. S America also too difficult with visas and Covid rules for a quick getaway, and expensive to get to and back.

    Morocco was first choice. I think on balance it still is, but Ireland still in the running.

    How did you weight the variables?

    Ireland is great for proximity, but fallout?
    Much of S and C America would be fine for entry requirements.
    I recently learnt that Colombia has some English-speaking islands.
    There are some pre-nuclear possibilities that would make nuclear escalation a racing certainty.

    I had 3 types of weighting: ones that would rule a country out altogether (like visa requirement or flying over war zone), some nice to haves with low scores (like cost of living) and other more important ones that were weighted twice as much (ease of getting there and back).

    I’d rather not go intercontinental if possible as it’s that much trickier to come back if it’s all a false alarm.

    Ireland would rely on westerlies. Would need to take heed of the medium term forecast. Also need to be far enough from Northern Ireland and Shannon airport.
    What about Tenerife? Can't see it being on the target list.
    You’ve got to hope that someone somewhere is going to still be in a position to ship food in, because once the stocks run out what happens then?
    Eat bananas and hope there are enough fish, I suppose.

    The same problem will happen in Morocco, too.

    Though perhaps it will rain there more in a nuclear winter? The polar front will move south.
  • Rishi Sunak plans to let Liz Truss 'own the moment' by not attending the Tory conference.
    Will Boris be there?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,995
    I also ordered some iodine tablets back in Feb. Finally arrived in July (they were from India). Sitting in the medicine cabinet above the loo.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    As luck would have it I am just looking at my insurance policy.

    There is no cover for:

    10) War, terrorism, radioactive contamination and pressure waves
    Any claim resulting directly or indirectly from or in connection with:
    a) war, terrorism, invasion, act of foreign enemy, hostilities or warlike operations
    (whether war be declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection,
    uprising, military or usurped power;
    b) ionising radiation or contamination by radioactivity from any nuclear fuel or any
    nuclear waste from the combustion of nuclear fuel;
    c) the radioactive, toxic, explosive or other hazardous properties of any explosive
    nuclear assembly or nuclear component of it;
    d) pressure waves caused by aircraft or other aerial devices travelling at sonic or
    supersonic speed.

    It's against the rules of Lloyd's and I assume also the companies market to write land based war risks.
    You can buy war-on-land coverage. Just not in a current war zone.
    Not at Lloyd's unless the rules have changed
    Lloyd's writes War and Terrorism coverage, either separately or combined, all the time - including sabotage (if you want). In marine, non-marine and aviation markets. It has done since it was founded. More-or-less.

    War-on-land is a commonly bought coverage for cargo risks for example. Lloyd's is not prevented from writing this at all. In fact there are underwriters specialising in it. Lloyd's cannot write coverage for radioactive contamination either from terror or war, but that's pretty much the only limit.

    Not sure why you think Lloyd's is banned from writing W&T.

    Someone ought to tell these people then.

    https://www.beazley.com/london_market/political_risks_and_contingency/terrorism.html
    Because I know more about Lloyd's than you do, read this

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.lloyds.com/media/a9760e12-037d-4cb9-b65b-236f457b8600/Y4483---The-underwriting-of-war,-civil-war-and-related-perils.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwix4Pvfi736AhXagVwKHdzrACkQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw22FGWBseH3Xr4Gv0GE1bXD
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    edited September 2022

    Does anyone else find it (at least) odd, that a UK government would go out of it's way (according to it's own narrative) to exacerbate a fiscal crisis, smack dab in the middle of a hot European war, involving MAJOR threats (putting it mildly) to the UK and the world?

    I mean, WHO stands to benefit from pouring gasoline onto the burning building? The fire fighers - or the arsonist?

    This is Q-Anon level stuff. You might as well imply that the Federal Reserve is secretly working for Russia by hiking rates so quickly and creating market dislocations around the world.
    You seem quite defensive. More so than persuasive. As per your recent postings.

    Current HMG (BoJo & Bojo Lite) IS on record has having granted peerage to at least on security risk, is it not?

    And ever hear of Alger Hiss and Kim Philby, just to name a few fellow security risks who managed to become quite influential in government circles of their time & place?
    I'm just exasperated that you can't see how silly the allegation of a grand pro-Russian conspiracy taking in half of British politics is. One that conveniently overlooks the role that many of the same individuals have played in countering Russia.

    It's the mindset of a delusional conspiracy theorist, not a considered sceptic.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    TimS said:

    I also ordered some iodine tablets back in Feb. Finally arrived in July (they were from India). Sitting in the medicine cabinet above the loo.

    The irony of them is if enough radiation is about that you need to stop intake through the thyroid youre probably fucked anyway
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    As luck would have it I am just looking at my insurance policy.

    There is no cover for:

    10) War, terrorism, radioactive contamination and pressure waves
    Any claim resulting directly or indirectly from or in connection with:
    a) war, terrorism, invasion, act of foreign enemy, hostilities or warlike operations
    (whether war be declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection,
    uprising, military or usurped power;
    b) ionising radiation or contamination by radioactivity from any nuclear fuel or any
    nuclear waste from the combustion of nuclear fuel;
    c) the radioactive, toxic, explosive or other hazardous properties of any explosive
    nuclear assembly or nuclear component of it;
    d) pressure waves caused by aircraft or other aerial devices travelling at sonic or
    supersonic speed.

    It's against the rules of Lloyd's and I assume also the companies market to write land based war risks.
    You can buy war-on-land coverage. Just not in a current war zone.
    Not at Lloyd's unless the rules have changed
    Lloyd's writes War and Terrorism coverage, either separately or combined, all the time - including sabotage (if you want). In marine, non-marine and aviation markets. It has done since it was founded. More-or-less.

    War-on-land is a commonly bought coverage for cargo risks for example. Lloyd's is not prevented from writing this at all. In fact there are underwriters specialising in it. Lloyd's cannot write coverage for radioactive contamination either from terror or war, but that's pretty much the only limit.

    Not sure why you think Lloyd's is banned from writing W&T.

    Someone ought to tell these people then.

    https://www.beazley.com/london_market/political_risks_and_contingency/terrorism.html
    Because I know more about Lloyd's than you do, read this

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.lloyds.com/media/a9760e12-037d-4cb9-b65b-236f457b8600/Y4483---The-underwriting-of-war,-civil-war-and-related-perils.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwix4Pvfi736AhXagVwKHdzrACkQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw22FGWBseH3Xr4Gv0GE1bXD
    I know a lot more about Lloyd's than you.

    That was a Market Circular instructing underwriters to more closely monitor their issued policies to exactly define if war was/is covered - as many legacy policies were vague and open to challenge. So a suite of LMA endorsements was issued to more tightly control these open policies.

    If you even read the document you evidently just dumped here hoping to win your argument then what it basically says:


    "Managing agents should ensure that they clearly document the scope of any war, civil war
    and related perils cover provided.
    Where cover is not provided, managing agents should ensure that a suitable exclusion
    clause is included in the policy terms and conditions. A number of model clauses have
    been developed by the LMA for this purpose.
    Where cover is to be given, the scope of cover should be clearly stated either in a separate
    policy or in a separately identifiable section of the policy. A number of model clauses have
    been developed by the LMA for certain classes that specifically provide for extended
    coverage, such as personal accident. Model clauses have also been developed by various
    market committees in the marine and aviation markets. "

    Sorry. Lloyd's writes war and terrorism. Why don't you just admit you're wrong. For once.
  • Videos of the HIMARS Ukraine now has:

    Ukraine received new missiles for HIMARS/M270 - modification of M30A1

    The M30A1/A2 differs from the previously used M31A1/A2 in an alternative warhead with 180,000 preformed spheroidal tungsten fragments placed around the explosive charge.


    https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1575878062981664768
  • Rishi Sunak plans to let Liz Truss 'own the moment' by not attending the Tory conference.
    Will Boris be there?

    Will the Prime Minister be there? Might make more sense to beg off, citing "press of business" (such as returning all those black dresses?)

    As for other potential attendees, we know that NPxMP will be there, cause he's told us (representing his pro-animal organization).

    Are any other PBers planning to attend, either as delegates, or in media (protected by barbed-wire cage?), peanut galleries or lurking in the fringes?
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    You are getting carried away. Putin is far more likely to use a tactical nuke first and see what the response is. Or indeed, not nuke at all but chemical weapon - far less likely to trigger a nuke response.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507

    TimS said:

    I also ordered some iodine tablets back in Feb. Finally arrived in July (they were from India). Sitting in the medicine cabinet above the loo.

    The irony of them is if enough radiation is about that you need to stop intake through the thyroid youre probably fucked anyway
    Useful for purifying water too tho I think.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668

    Videos of the HIMARS Ukraine now has:

    Ukraine received new missiles for HIMARS/M270 - modification of M30A1

    The M30A1/A2 differs from the previously used M31A1/A2 in an alternative warhead with 180,000 preformed spheroidal tungsten fragments placed around the explosive charge.


    https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1575878062981664768

    Ugh. As a species, we really are quite inventive at thinking of ways to kill people, aren't we?

    Ideal for ill equipped mobilised forces with little hard cover. Shame the new recruits don't get to see this in advance.
  • Biden on the Nord Stream pipeline being blown up:

    "It was a deliberate act of sabotage. Now the Russians are pumping out disinformation. We will work with our allies to get to the bottom of what happened... But don't listen to Putin. What he's saying we know is not true."


    https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1575909001346400256
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    pigeon said:

    Does house insurance usually protect you in instances of nuclear war?

    Asking for a friend.

    Three problems.
    A living policyholder.
    An insurance company that hasn’t been annihilated.
    Insurance companies’ small print.
    What kind of event or action is sufficient, do you think, to trigger a sensible evacuation of one’s family to the countryside or even New Zealand?

    Asking for another friend.
    In the event of a strategic nuclear exchange there's no point in running. Anywhere that's not obliterated by a thermonuclear blast will simply be irradiated by fallout, then starved and frozen to death in a nuclear winter.

    Besides which, Putin is psychotic, genocidal scum and so are all the people around him. It wouldn't at all surprise me if they decided to nuke as wide a range of targets as possible in their zeal to take the entire world down with them. New Zealand is, therefore, probably on their "let's kill the whole planet" list anyway.
    The Cold War plans of the USSR included nuking New Zealand. The reasoning was that

    a) The anti-nuclear thing was probably a fake
    b) They were Western country so would probably ally with the rest of the West.

    40 warheads, IIRC.

    Australia was going to be nuked as well. IIRC Port Moresby was going to get urban redevelopment.... Yes, the USSR was planning on bombing Papua New Guinea back to the Stone Age.
    Papua New Guinea is as close as you get to the stone age already.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Rishi Sunak plans to let Liz Truss 'own the moment' by not attending the Tory conference.
    Will Boris be there?

    Will the Prime Minister be there? Might make more sense to beg off, citing "press of business" (such as returning all those black dresses?)

    As for other potential attendees, we know that NPxMP will be there, cause he's told us (representing his pro-animal organization).

    Are any other PBers planning to attend, either as delegates, or in media (protected by barbed-wire cage?), peanut galleries or lurking in the fringes?
    HYUFD would be the favoured candidate I guess.

  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    If there was US capitulation that scenario there is nothing stopping Putin dropping a nuke whenever he wants something. If he drops on Munich to use your example, for Ukraine, what is to stop him dropping on Madrid for Moldova? Amsterdam for the Baltics? Oslo for Poland?

    You are essentially giving him carte blanche to take whatever he wants of the non-nuclear world.

    So it wouldn’t work. Retaliation on a Russian city would be the bare minimum.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    China might prove the curveball difference here. Russias nukes are targetted at the West, Putin goes tactical, China fires in 3 dong fengs with a 'cease and desist' order, Russia capitulates as it will be fried before it can target China and a grateful world hands China military protectorate over Asian Russia.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    It was easily missed, amidst all the other news that this Government has generated over the past week, but the Court of Appeal yesterday afforded an important victory to Suella Braverman.

    As Attorney General, she asked it to review the judgement in the ‘Colston Four’ trial, which saw four vandals acquitted on the grounds that tearing down a public artwork was protected under human rights legislation…..

    In the wake of the ruling, Braverman used powers conferred on the Attorney General by Parliament to refer the case to the Court of Appeal. Not to overturn the actual judgement, but to clarify the law.

    This move was widely ridiculed by legal Twitter, which rarely passed over an opportunity to discredit itself where Braverman was concerned. One legal luminary compared her to a cleaner; Jolyon Maugham went so far as to compare her legal acumen to that of a dog……

    Yet the Court of Appeal agreed with Braverman; convicting someone for public vandalism would not, in fact, constitute an unacceptable breach of their right to protest.

    This case has been a useful reminder both of how skewed against the Government the legal commentariat generally is, and that it is nonetheless worth the effort of taking them on.

    https://conservativehome.com/2022/09/29/why-could-so-few-legal-commentators-see-that-braverman-was-right-about-the-colston-four/

    Braverman should get credit where it is due. But her record as Attorney General was not very impressive.
    Ironically the ruling doesn't really help her case against 'human rights laws'. If I have understood it correctly, the court of appeal came to the conclusion that human rights laws don't permit you to tear down statues.

    They make some valid points about the 'legal commentariat'. They like to think of themselves as being above politics, but they aren't and there is a lot of left wing groupthink going on.

  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507

    Videos of the HIMARS Ukraine now has:

    Ukraine received new missiles for HIMARS/M270 - modification of M30A1

    The M30A1/A2 differs from the previously used M31A1/A2 in an alternative warhead with 180,000 preformed spheroidal tungsten fragments placed around the explosive charge.


    https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1575878062981664768

    Shrapnel 2022 style.
  • Does anyone else find it (at least) odd, that a UK government would go out of it's way (according to it's own narrative) to exacerbate a fiscal crisis, smack dab in the middle of a hot European war, involving MAJOR threats (putting it mildly) to the UK and the world?

    I mean, WHO stands to benefit from pouring gasoline onto the burning building? The fire fighers - or the arsonist?

    This is Q-Anon level stuff. You might as well imply that the Federal Reserve is secretly working for Russia by hiking rates so quickly and creating market dislocations around the world.
    You seem quite defensive. More so than persuasive. As per your recent postings.

    Current HMG (BoJo & Bojo Lite) IS on record has having granted peerage to at least on security risk, is it not?

    And ever hear of Alger Hiss and Kim Philby, just to name a few fellow security risks who managed to become quite influential in government circles of their time & place?
    I'm just exasperated that you can't see how silly the allegation of a grand pro-Russian conspiracy taking in half of British politics is. One that conveniently overlooks the role that many of the same individuals have played in countering Russia.

    It's the mindset of a delusional conspiracy theorist, not a considered sceptic.
    So you keep saying, that YOUR critics are dumb and delusional. It's your constant, quick fall-back.

    What I am saying, is that the possibility of Russian infiltration - NOT total "grand" domination - is a definitely possibility, given the character and quality of recent AND current "leadership" of HMG.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    If there was US capitulation that scenario there is nothing stopping Putin dropping a nuke whenever he wants something. If he drops on Munich to use your example, for Ukraine, what is to stop him dropping on Madrid for Moldova? Amsterdam for the Baltics? Oslo for Poland?

    You are essentially giving him carte blanche to take whatever he wants of the non-nuclear world.

    So it wouldn’t work. Retaliation on a Russian city would be the bare minimum.

    What? I'm not giving anything I'm trying to work out IF the USA would retaliate, and how they would do it, in that scenario. And I'm not sure America would go full on total nuke exchange

    More likely they would do what you say. One Russian city. And then a desperate seeking of peace. Which might suit Putin completely
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    China might prove the curveball difference here. Russias nukes are targetted at the West, Putin goes tactical, China fires in 3 dong fengs with a 'cease and desist' order, Russia capitulates as it will be fried before it can target China and a grateful world hands China military protectorate over Asian Russia.
    I hope we are having serious talks in Beijing right now; because Xi is the man who is the most likely person who can stop this war.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    That's the end of the speech. As I said from day 1, the purpose of what Putin is doing in Ukraine is to throw the West off its pedestal. This isn't about NATO or Ukraine, this is the big play to replace the current world order.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Hmm. Just thinking…

    What does Boris do over the next week or so?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Videos of the HIMARS Ukraine now has:

    Ukraine received new missiles for HIMARS/M270 - modification of M30A1

    The M30A1/A2 differs from the previously used M31A1/A2 in an alternative warhead with 180,000 preformed spheroidal tungsten fragments placed around the explosive charge.


    https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1575878062981664768

    Ugh. As a species, we really are quite inventive at thinking of ways to kill people, aren't we?

    Ideal for ill equipped mobilised forces with little hard cover. Shame the new recruits don't get to see this in advance.
    As a species we're really quite inventive at thinking of ways to help people and improve things too.

    It's the flip side of imagination.
  • Does anyone else find it (at least) odd, that a UK government would go out of it's way (according to it's own narrative) to exacerbate a fiscal crisis, smack dab in the middle of a hot European war, involving MAJOR threats (putting it mildly) to the UK and the world?

    I mean, WHO stands to benefit from pouring gasoline onto the burning building? The fire fighers - or the arsonist?

    This is Q-Anon level stuff. You might as well imply that the Federal Reserve is secretly working for Russia by hiking rates so quickly and creating market dislocations around the world.
    You seem quite defensive. More so than persuasive. As per your recent postings.

    Current HMG (BoJo & Bojo Lite) IS on record has having granted peerage to at least on security risk, is it not?

    And ever hear of Alger Hiss and Kim Philby, just to name a few fellow security risks who managed to become quite influential in government circles of their time & place?
    I'm just exasperated that you can't see how silly the allegation of a grand pro-Russian conspiracy taking in half of British politics is. One that conveniently overlooks the role that many of the same individuals have played in countering Russia.

    It's the mindset of a delusional conspiracy theorist, not a considered sceptic.
    So you keep saying, that YOUR critics are dumb and delusional. It's your constant, quick fall-back.

    What I am saying, is that the possibility of Russian infiltration - NOT total "grand" domination - is a definitely possibility, given the character and quality of recent AND current "leadership" of HMG.
    Be specific and rigorous about what you are alleging. Who is on your Joe McCarthy-style list of suspects and in what way do you think they are compromised?
  • Biden on the Nord Stream pipeline being blown up:

    "It was a deliberate act of sabotage. Now the Russians are pumping out disinformation. We will work with our allies to get to the bottom of what happened... But don't listen to Putin. What he's saying we know is not true."


    https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1575909001346400256

    And Leon - along with LuckyGoebbels1943 - suck up every drip of misinformation that oozes out of Putin's backside.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    If there was US capitulation that scenario there is nothing stopping Putin dropping a nuke whenever he wants something. If he drops on Munich to use your example, for Ukraine, what is to stop him dropping on Madrid for Moldova? Amsterdam for the Baltics? Oslo for Poland?

    You are essentially giving him carte blanche to take whatever he wants of the non-nuclear world.

    So it wouldn’t work. Retaliation on a Russian city would be the bare minimum.

    The West would not target a city primarily. A naval base, military installation, industrial complex, air base etc
    Countervalue targetting is the endgame of MAD
    Putin would similarly hit an economic or military target
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    darkage said:

    It was easily missed, amidst all the other news that this Government has generated over the past week, but the Court of Appeal yesterday afforded an important victory to Suella Braverman.

    As Attorney General, she asked it to review the judgement in the ‘Colston Four’ trial, which saw four vandals acquitted on the grounds that tearing down a public artwork was protected under human rights legislation…..

    In the wake of the ruling, Braverman used powers conferred on the Attorney General by Parliament to refer the case to the Court of Appeal. Not to overturn the actual judgement, but to clarify the law.

    This move was widely ridiculed by legal Twitter, which rarely passed over an opportunity to discredit itself where Braverman was concerned. One legal luminary compared her to a cleaner; Jolyon Maugham went so far as to compare her legal acumen to that of a dog……

    Yet the Court of Appeal agreed with Braverman; convicting someone for public vandalism would not, in fact, constitute an unacceptable breach of their right to protest.

    This case has been a useful reminder both of how skewed against the Government the legal commentariat generally is, and that it is nonetheless worth the effort of taking them on.

    https://conservativehome.com/2022/09/29/why-could-so-few-legal-commentators-see-that-braverman-was-right-about-the-colston-four/

    Braverman should get credit where it is due. But her record as Attorney General was not very impressive.
    Ironically the ruling doesn't really help her case against 'human rights laws'. If I have understood it correctly, the court of appeal came to the conclusion that human rights laws don't permit you to tear down statues.

    They make some valid points about the 'legal commentariat'. They like to think of themselves as being above politics, but they aren't and there is a lot of left wing groupthink going on.

    Judgement - which is obviously correct, and nothing to do with how good Braverman is as AG etc - here:


    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2022/1259.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    You are getting carried away. Putin is far more likely to use a tactical nuke first and see what the response is. Or indeed, not nuke at all but chemical weapon - far less likely to trigger a nuke response.
    I'm not "getting carried away" I am elaborating on scenarios I have seen discussed by military experts online, and by Russian politicians on Russian TV, is all

    This is an unlikely scenario, but not ridiculously so. See Russians discussing a first strike on UK or Germany here

    "Meanwhile in Russia, more of the usual: nuclear threats against Germany and Britain, cautioning NATO against going into Ukraine. This directly clashes with their lies, constantly spewed by state TV, that Russia is already at war with NATO & "uniformed NATO troops" are in Ukraine."



    https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1571712271063072773?s=20&t=CpFHV9_8XcYgN1ljVSVrOg
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    England
    Lab 53%
    Con 32%
    LD 11%

    Scotland
    SNP 51%
    SLab 29%
    SCon 11%
    SLD 7%

    Wales
    WLab 53%
    WLD 18%
    WCon 16%
    PC 12%

    (Survation; 29 September; 1,092)

    Sub-samples twice in one afternoon!
    You spoilt bastards!

    I get criticised if I post too few (cherry-picking).
    I get criticised if I post too many (bloody jocks).
    Hopefully get some proper polls around the SC decision.
    Fundamental methodological error: never measure at or around an “event”. Regular, say monthly, polls are your friend. Scotland used to have two (System Three and ? I forget the other, ICM? courtesy of G Herald and Scotsman) until the rise of the SNP. Odd coincidence that they disappeared about then 😉
    2010-ish? Yes, that was about when the Scotsman and then GH stopped being decent middle of the road broadsheets anyway, which didn't help.
    Scotland needs a national media. National polling companies. And a national government.
    Scotland is ill served by its media. There is one newspaper where the SNP can do no ill. The rest are biased in the opposite direction. There is no unbiased media. At all. Mind you, the rest of the UK suffers badly from the same failures.
  • Truss will be felled by failing to get the "budget" passed in the commons.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Leon said:

    War Monitor
    @WarfareReports
    ·
    1m
    ⚡️⚡️Ukraine has the right to retake Ukrainian territory even if it leads to nuclear war—Stoltenberg

    Oh, great
    Don't be a wuss.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    If there was US capitulation that scenario there is nothing stopping Putin dropping a nuke whenever he wants something. If he drops on Munich to use your example, for Ukraine, what is to stop him dropping on Madrid for Moldova? Amsterdam for the Baltics? Oslo for Poland?

    You are essentially giving him carte blanche to take whatever he wants of the non-nuclear world.

    So it wouldn’t work. Retaliation on a Russian city would be the bare minimum.

    What? I'm not giving anything I'm trying to work out IF the USA would retaliate, and how they would do it, in that scenario. And I'm not sure America would go full on total nuke exchange

    More likely they would do what you say. One Russian city. And then a desperate seeking of peace. Which might suit Putin completely
    This all reads like a fundamental misunderstanding of the American mentality. Italy and Germany are seen as part of the West, and the West is seen as America's gang. Tens of millions of Americans are proud of their Italian or German identity. A nuke dropped on one of those countries would absolutely lead to Russia losing one of its major cities. Quite likely Moscow.

    Which is why Russia won't do it. Putin knows all this. The people around him all know this. And if Putin really did go mad and try it, the people around him would block it, just as they blocked full mobilization.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Back in February at the start of the war I ran a location assessment to work out where to go in the event nuclear war looked likely, and what the trigger would be.

    For the trigger, unless your job and family situation allows, it’s not feasible to go very early and sit it out in a far flung location. We need to late enough that we’re not blowing our children’s schooling or my job.

    But leave it too late and you’re in the rush with millions of others and might struggle to make it out. Our current trigger is detonation of a tactical nuke by Putin.

    Location wise I followed the scorecard approach I take at work when I’m advising multinationals on where to put a new operation. Variables were speed and cost to get there and back, Covid and visa entry requirements, number of flights per week, agricultural self sufficiency, cost and standard of living, distance from blast and fallout, and avoiding flight paths over potential targets.

    Narrowed it down to Morocco or Ireland. Asia involved flying over CIS and E Europe and was too restrictive on entry requirements. S America also too difficult with visas and Covid rules for a quick getaway, and expensive to get to and back.

    Morocco was first choice. I think on balance it still is, but Ireland still in the running.

    I think you're pissing into the radioactive wind.

    If I wanted to live in the remnants of our civilisation. I'd go and eat puffins on the Western Isles.
    The torrential rain will wash a lot of the radioactive fallout away. Good call.
    Infinite supply of iodine rich kelp and all the sea birds a man can desire.

    Care to join me for tern a l'bladder rack this Christmas?
    You won’t get there before Christmas because of Calmac ferries.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668
    edited September 2022
    kle4 said:

    Videos of the HIMARS Ukraine now has:

    Ukraine received new missiles for HIMARS/M270 - modification of M30A1

    The M30A1/A2 differs from the previously used M31A1/A2 in an alternative warhead with 180,000 preformed spheroidal tungsten fragments placed around the explosive charge.


    https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1575878062981664768

    Ugh. As a species, we really are quite inventive at thinking of ways to kill people, aren't we?

    Ideal for ill equipped mobilised forces with little hard cover. Shame the new recruits don't get to see this in advance.
    As a species we're really quite inventive at thinking of ways to help people and improve things too.

    It's the flip side of imagination.
    Oh, I know, I was an Engineer once.

    I just can't imagine working to design and test something like this - and yet I'm kind of glad there is someone who does. It is somehow more personal than eg an aircraft.
  • kle4 said:

    That's the end of the speech. As I said from day 1, the purpose of what Putin is doing in Ukraine is to throw the West off its pedestal. This isn't about NATO or Ukraine, this is the big play to replace the current world order.
    And so far he has achieved the exact opposite.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    If there was US capitulation that scenario there is nothing stopping Putin dropping a nuke whenever he wants something. If he drops on Munich to use your example, for Ukraine, what is to stop him dropping on Madrid for Moldova? Amsterdam for the Baltics? Oslo for Poland?

    You are essentially giving him carte blanche to take whatever he wants of the non-nuclear world.

    So it wouldn’t work. Retaliation on a Russian city would be the bare minimum.

    What? I'm not giving anything I'm trying to work out IF the USA would retaliate, and how they would do it, in that scenario. And I'm not sure America would go full on total nuke exchange

    More likely they would do what you say. One Russian city. And then a desperate seeking of peace. Which might suit Putin completely
    This all reads like a fundamental misunderstanding of the American mentality. Italy and Germany are seen as part of the West, and the West is seen as America's gang. Tens of millions of Americans are proud of their Italian or German identity. A nuke dropped on one of those countries would absolutely lead to Russia losing one of its major cities. Quite likely Moscow.

    Which is why Russia won't do it. Putin knows all this. The people around him all know this. And if Putin really did go mad and try it, the people around him would block it, just as they blocked full mobilization.
    I mostly agree with you, apart from your last point

    I watched the annexation ceremony today. A truly bizarre event

    The relevance is that Putin looked completely mad, and the entire crowd looked terrified and disturbed, like kidnap victims, like he had them all there at gunpoint. Maybe he did, in effect

    I kept looking for signs they would stop this mad fucker. I could not see any, unfortunately. I just saw fear

    One hopes there is a Zhukov-like character hanging around the Kreml somewhere
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,724
    edited September 2022
    Lewis Goodall
    @lewis_goodall
    ·
    1h
    NEW: I understand “multiple” Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour in Parliament to defeat elements of the “mini-budget. Particular focus on 45p rate. Focus is on sending a signal to markets.

    Edit: One of the MPs is Liz Truss (probably) :smile:
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    kle4 said:

    That's the end of the speech. As I said from day 1, the purpose of what Putin is doing in Ukraine is to throw the West off its pedestal. This isn't about NATO or Ukraine, this is the big play to replace the current world order.
    If that is correct, then Putin is failing miserably.
    Sadly there is no other option than he bangs his head against a nuclear NATO wall about 20% of the way in to Ukraine and gets humiliated in front of the rest of the world.
    No one buys his bizarre rantings about fighting western colonialism with his own colonial war.
    I guess it is all for a domestic consumption anyway.
  • I wonder who Delingpole is referring to?

    "The same people who engineered and financed World Wars 1 and 2 are now trying to start World War 3 - and for the same reasons. The only difference this time is that a lot more of us are wise to their game."

    https://twitter.com/JamesDelingpole/status/1575404258505138181

    (hat-tip to Tim, once of this parish)
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,718
    Kenny Everett, rip, will be missed at this year's Conservative conference.
  • ping said:

    Hmm. Just thinking…

    What does Boris do over the next week or so?

    Party.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    How do the Tory whips deal with the vote on the mini-budget .

    The public clearly hate the removal of the bankers bonus cap and scrapping of the 45% tax rate.

    Will any vote be for the whole package or will this be on the separate measures .

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Lewis Goodall
    @lewis_goodall
    ·
    1h
    NEW: I understand “multiple” Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour in Parliament to defeat elements of the “mini-budget. Particular focus on 45p rate. Focus is on sending a signal to markets.

    Edit: One of the MPs is Liz Truss (probably) :smile:

    How can a government possibly continue with such chaos? This would not "send a calming signal to the markets" it would make everything worse, by giving the acute sense Britain has no functioning government at all. Enough! Get rid of her, back her, or call a fucking election. Them's the choices
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Lewis Goodall
    @lewis_goodall
    ·
    1h
    NEW: I understand “multiple” Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour in Parliament to defeat elements of the “mini-budget. Particular focus on 45p rate. Focus is on sending a signal to markets.

    Edit: One of the MPs is Liz Truss (probably) :smile:

    If enough of them rebel over a vote on supply then the likelihood of an election greatly increases. The normal response to this would be withdrawal of the whip, ergo the effective loss of Truss's Parliamentary majority.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090
    darkage said:

    It was easily missed, amidst all the other news that this Government has generated over the past week, but the Court of Appeal yesterday afforded an important victory to Suella Braverman.

    As Attorney General, she asked it to review the judgement in the ‘Colston Four’ trial, which saw four vandals acquitted on the grounds that tearing down a public artwork was protected under human rights legislation…..

    In the wake of the ruling, Braverman used powers conferred on the Attorney General by Parliament to refer the case to the Court of Appeal. Not to overturn the actual judgement, but to clarify the law.

    This move was widely ridiculed by legal Twitter, which rarely passed over an opportunity to discredit itself where Braverman was concerned. One legal luminary compared her to a cleaner; Jolyon Maugham went so far as to compare her legal acumen to that of a dog……

    Yet the Court of Appeal agreed with Braverman; convicting someone for public vandalism would not, in fact, constitute an unacceptable breach of their right to protest.

    This case has been a useful reminder both of how skewed against the Government the legal commentariat generally is, and that it is nonetheless worth the effort of taking them on.

    https://conservativehome.com/2022/09/29/why-could-so-few-legal-commentators-see-that-braverman-was-right-about-the-colston-four/

    Braverman should get credit where it is due. But her record as Attorney General was not very impressive.
    Ironically the ruling doesn't really help her case against 'human rights laws'. If I have understood it correctly, the court of appeal came to the conclusion that human rights laws don't permit you to tear down statues.

    They make some valid points about the 'legal commentariat'. They like to think of themselves as being above politics, but they aren't and there is a lot of left wing groupthink going on.

    I don’t see now the legal ruling really helps Braverman. We all knew that it was one of those jury decisions where the jury goes, “F*** what the law says, we’ll find them innocent.” There wasn’t any real risk of copycat incidents, except in the minds of those who have scared themselves into believing in a global Woke takeover.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    algarkirk said:

    darkage said:

    It was easily missed, amidst all the other news that this Government has generated over the past week, but the Court of Appeal yesterday afforded an important victory to Suella Braverman.

    As Attorney General, she asked it to review the judgement in the ‘Colston Four’ trial, which saw four vandals acquitted on the grounds that tearing down a public artwork was protected under human rights legislation…..

    In the wake of the ruling, Braverman used powers conferred on the Attorney General by Parliament to refer the case to the Court of Appeal. Not to overturn the actual judgement, but to clarify the law.

    This move was widely ridiculed by legal Twitter, which rarely passed over an opportunity to discredit itself where Braverman was concerned. One legal luminary compared her to a cleaner; Jolyon Maugham went so far as to compare her legal acumen to that of a dog……

    Yet the Court of Appeal agreed with Braverman; convicting someone for public vandalism would not, in fact, constitute an unacceptable breach of their right to protest.

    This case has been a useful reminder both of how skewed against the Government the legal commentariat generally is, and that it is nonetheless worth the effort of taking them on.

    https://conservativehome.com/2022/09/29/why-could-so-few-legal-commentators-see-that-braverman-was-right-about-the-colston-four/

    Braverman should get credit where it is due. But her record as Attorney General was not very impressive.
    Ironically the ruling doesn't really help her case against 'human rights laws'. If I have understood it correctly, the court of appeal came to the conclusion that human rights laws don't permit you to tear down statues.

    They make some valid points about the 'legal commentariat'. They like to think of themselves as being above politics, but they aren't and there is a lot of left wing groupthink going on.

    Judgement - which is obviously correct, and nothing to do with how good Braverman is as AG etc - here:


    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2022/1259.html
    I did like this legal point, since there are quite a few occasions where people try to rely on things minister's say, or say poorly, as if it is itself law.


    iii) Lack of cogent justification during a Parliamentary debate does not count against the legislation on issues of proportionality. The court evaluates the proportionality of the legislation, not the adequacy of a minister's exploration of policy options or his explanations to Parliament:
  • Russian bombers capable of carrying nukes detected near Finland

    https://www.jpost.com/international/article-718618
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    Off topic: Just finished The Capture and I must be losing faculties now I'm getting old, because at no point did I have a clue what was going on.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    darkage said:

    It was easily missed, amidst all the other news that this Government has generated over the past week, but the Court of Appeal yesterday afforded an important victory to Suella Braverman.

    As Attorney General, she asked it to review the judgement in the ‘Colston Four’ trial, which saw four vandals acquitted on the grounds that tearing down a public artwork was protected under human rights legislation…..

    In the wake of the ruling, Braverman used powers conferred on the Attorney General by Parliament to refer the case to the Court of Appeal. Not to overturn the actual judgement, but to clarify the law.

    This move was widely ridiculed by legal Twitter, which rarely passed over an opportunity to discredit itself where Braverman was concerned. One legal luminary compared her to a cleaner; Jolyon Maugham went so far as to compare her legal acumen to that of a dog……

    Yet the Court of Appeal agreed with Braverman; convicting someone for public vandalism would not, in fact, constitute an unacceptable breach of their right to protest.

    This case has been a useful reminder both of how skewed against the Government the legal commentariat generally is, and that it is nonetheless worth the effort of taking them on.

    https://conservativehome.com/2022/09/29/why-could-so-few-legal-commentators-see-that-braverman-was-right-about-the-colston-four/

    Braverman should get credit where it is due. But her record as Attorney General was not very impressive.
    Ironically the ruling doesn't really help her case against 'human rights laws'. If I have understood it correctly, the court of appeal came to the conclusion that human rights laws don't permit you to tear down statues.

    They make some valid points about the 'legal commentariat'. They like to think of themselves as being above politics, but they aren't and there is a lot of left wing groupthink going on.

    I don’t see now the legal ruling really helps Braverman. We all knew that it was one of those jury decisions where the jury goes, “F*** what the law says, we’ll find them innocent.” There wasn’t any real risk of copycat incidents, except in the minds of those who have scared themselves into believing in a global Woke takeover.
    I don’t think it helps her at all. The jury acquitted for reasons entirely unrelated to the law, as they always have tended to do. Still a system worth having.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    I wonder who Delingpole is referring to?

    "The same people who engineered and financed World Wars 1 and 2 are now trying to start World War 3 - and for the same reasons. The only difference this time is that a lot more of us are wise to their game."

    https://twitter.com/JamesDelingpole/status/1575404258505138181

    (hat-tip to Tim, once of this parish)

    The conspiracy theories over WW1 and WW2 really are a good example of showing who is unhinged. And it is almost always extreme right wing reactionaries that would prefer Putinism to Western Enlightenment democracy.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090
    kinabalu said:

    Off topic: Just finished The Capture and I must be losing faculties now I'm getting old, because at no point did I have a clue what was going on.

    Sorry, but are you actually Kwasi Kwarteng?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    kinabalu said:

    Off topic: Just finished The Capture and I must be losing faculties now I'm getting old, because at no point did I have a clue what was going on.

    Lmao ! It was a bit muddled but I did enjoy it . And it did ask some interesting questions , overall I’d give it a 7/10.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    Lewis Goodall
    @lewis_goodall
    ·
    1h
    NEW: I understand “multiple” Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour in Parliament to defeat elements of the “mini-budget. Particular focus on 45p rate. Focus is on sending a signal to markets.

    Edit: One of the MPs is Liz Truss (probably) :smile:

    How can a government possibly continue with such chaos? This would not "send a calming signal to the markets" it would make everything worse, by giving the acute sense Britain has no functioning government at all. Enough! Get rid of her, back her, or call a fucking election. Them's the choices
    We are weeks from - Caretaker PM Peter Bone says the opposition to the 'Mrs Bone Budget' is unacceptable but in an olive branch to rebels he has sacked Chancellor Francois and replaced him with a copy of Alan Clark's diary
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    Lewis Goodall
    @lewis_goodall
    ·
    1h
    NEW: I understand “multiple” Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour in Parliament to defeat elements of the “mini-budget. Particular focus on 45p rate. Focus is on sending a signal to markets.

    Edit: One of the MPs is Liz Truss (probably) :smile:

    How can a government possibly continue with such chaos? This would not "send a calming signal to the markets" it would make everything worse, by giving the acute sense Britain has no functioning government at all. Enough! Get rid of her, back her, or call a fucking election. Them's the choices
    Handing the leadership vote to the party membership has uncoupled the executive from the majority in Parliament and thus broken the constitution.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    As luck would have it I am just looking at my insurance policy.

    There is no cover for:

    10) War, terrorism, radioactive contamination and pressure waves
    Any claim resulting directly or indirectly from or in connection with:
    a) war, terrorism, invasion, act of foreign enemy, hostilities or warlike operations
    (whether war be declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection,
    uprising, military or usurped power;
    b) ionising radiation or contamination by radioactivity from any nuclear fuel or any
    nuclear waste from the combustion of nuclear fuel;
    c) the radioactive, toxic, explosive or other hazardous properties of any explosive
    nuclear assembly or nuclear component of it;
    d) pressure waves caused by aircraft or other aerial devices travelling at sonic or
    supersonic speed.

    It's against the rules of Lloyd's and I assume also the companies market to write land based war risks.
    You can buy war-on-land coverage. Just not in a current war zone.
    Not at Lloyd's unless the rules have changed
    Lloyd's writes War and Terrorism coverage, either separately or combined, all the time - including sabotage (if you want). In marine, non-marine and aviation markets. It has done since it was founded. More-or-less.

    War-on-land is a commonly bought coverage for cargo risks for example. Lloyd's is not prevented from writing this at all. In fact there are underwriters specialising in it. Lloyd's cannot write coverage for radioactive contamination either from terror or war, but that's pretty much the only limit.

    Not sure why you think Lloyd's is banned from writing W&T.

    Someone ought to tell these people then.

    https://www.beazley.com/london_market/political_risks_and_contingency/terrorism.html
    Because I know more about Lloyd's than you do, read this

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.lloyds.com/media/a9760e12-037d-4cb9-b65b-236f457b8600/Y4483---The-underwriting-of-war,-civil-war-and-related-perils.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwix4Pvfi736AhXagVwKHdzrACkQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw22FGWBseH3Xr4Gv0GE1bXD
    I know a lot more about Lloyd's than you.

    That was a Market Circular instructing underwriters to more closely monitor their issued policies to exactly define if war was/is covered - as many legacy policies were vague and open to challenge. So a suite of LMA endorsements was issued to more tightly control these open policies.

    If you even read the document you evidently just dumped here hoping to win your argument then what it basically says:


    "Managing agents should ensure that they clearly document the scope of any war, civil war
    and related perils cover provided.
    Where cover is not provided, managing agents should ensure that a suitable exclusion
    clause is included in the policy terms and conditions. A number of model clauses have
    been developed by the LMA for this purpose.
    Where cover is to be given, the scope of cover should be clearly stated either in a separate
    policy or in a separately identifiable section of the policy. A number of model clauses have
    been developed by the LMA for certain classes that specifically provide for extended
    coverage, such as personal accident. Model clauses have also been developed by various
    market committees in the marine and aviation markets. "

    Sorry. Lloyd's writes war and terrorism. Why don't you just admit you're wrong. For once.
    I never don't admit I am wrong. I have read the document, why would I not? I spent much of the 80s and 90s litigating in the London marine insurance market and the rule then was no non marine war risks. You know as well as I do that a cargo policy is marine irrespective of the cargo being at sea or not so why pretend otherwise?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    edited September 2022

    Russian bombers capable of carrying nukes detected near Finland

    https://www.jpost.com/international/article-718618

    And.....


    "A column of heavy #Russian equipment carrying nuclear warheads was spotted in #Rostov ,#Putin #PutinWarCriminal #UkraineWar #Ukraine️ #UkraineWillWin #SlavaUkrainii #SlavaUkraïni #StandWithUkraine #Russia #nuclearwar"



    https://twitter.com/Feher_Junior/status/1575916429634830336?s=20&t=3c7bpfc_6GwUvIpPBYw8ww

    I may have to bring forward my Doomsday Finger Buffet


    NB: I have no idea if that video is genuine. The trees look suspiciously springlike, not autumnal, tho the weather matches the forecast for today in Rostov: clear and 24C
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    If that twitter summary of "Czar" Putin's speech was reasonably complete, then I am disappointed that he left out the 4th Crusade, merely going back a few hundred years. I was half hoping he would blame the United States for that, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

    (By the way, after World War I, the United States, under the leadership of Herbert Hoover, gave immense amounts of food aid to the Soviet Union. "At its peak, the ARA employed 300 Americans, more than 120,000 Russians and fed 10.5 million people daily." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Relief_Administration )

    I am reasonably sure Putin didn't mention that in his speech.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    If there was US capitulation that scenario there is nothing stopping Putin dropping a nuke whenever he wants something. If he drops on Munich to use your example, for Ukraine, what is to stop him dropping on Madrid for Moldova? Amsterdam for the Baltics? Oslo for Poland?

    You are essentially giving him carte blanche to take whatever he wants of the non-nuclear world.

    So it wouldn’t work. Retaliation on a Russian city would be the bare minimum.

    What? I'm not giving anything I'm trying to work out IF the USA would retaliate, and how they would do it, in that scenario. And I'm not sure America would go full on total nuke exchange

    More likely they would do what you say. One Russian city. And then a desperate seeking of peace. Which might suit Putin completely
    This all reads like a fundamental misunderstanding of the American mentality. Italy and Germany are seen as part of the West, and the West is seen as America's gang. Tens of millions of Americans are proud of their Italian or German identity. A nuke dropped on one of those countries would absolutely lead to Russia losing one of its major cities. Quite likely Moscow.

    Which is why Russia won't do it. Putin knows all this. The people around him all know this. And if Putin really did go mad and try it, the people around him would block it, just as they blocked full mobilization.
    I mostly agree with you, apart from your last point

    I watched the annexation ceremony today. A truly bizarre event

    The relevance is that Putin looked completely mad, and the entire crowd looked terrified and disturbed, like kidnap victims, like he had them all there at gunpoint. Maybe he did, in effect

    I kept looking for signs they would stop this mad fucker. I could not see any, unfortunately. I just saw fear

    One hopes there is a Zhukov-like character hanging around the Kreml somewhere
    The people that would block him are not in that crowd. They are in the offices of Russian banks and the KGB. The KGB can assassinate him and the bankers can stop his funding. Putin is Peter III and the coup is inevitable. If he is lucky, cancer will get him first.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    pigeon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    Logic fail because it implies all countries having WMDs makes for a safer world.

    But you do have a point. Tricky issue. No easy answers.

    I'd ditch trident. It fails the cost benefit test for me.
    But we return to Leon's previous point. Would Ukraine be in the mess it is now if it had a huge stockpile of strategic nuclear weapons, ready to exterminate all life in Russia the nanosecond that it tried to invade?

    The Russia-Ukraine War is, alas, the best advertisement for nuclear proliferation ever made.
    It doesn't follow from this that Trident passes the cost benefit test for us.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    darkage said:

    kle4 said:

    That's the end of the speech. As I said from day 1, the purpose of what Putin is doing in Ukraine is to throw the West off its pedestal. This isn't about NATO or Ukraine, this is the big play to replace the current world order.
    If that is correct, then Putin is failing miserably.
    Sadly there is no other option than he bangs his head against a nuclear NATO wall about 20% of the way in to Ukraine and gets humiliated in front of the rest of the world.
    No one buys his bizarre rantings about fighting western colonialism with his own colonial war.
    I guess it is all for a domestic consumption anyway.
    im just reading a book on Putin and apparently he blew up apartment blocks in Moscow ie killed his own people to give him an excuse to launch air strikes against grozny and propel him to the presidency...the man is utterly ruthless and very deceptive...a dangerous enemy
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Lewis Goodall
    @lewis_goodall
    ·
    1h
    NEW: I understand “multiple” Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour in Parliament to defeat elements of the “mini-budget. Particular focus on 45p rate. Focus is on sending a signal to markets.

    Edit: One of the MPs is Liz Truss (probably) :smile:

    How can a government possibly continue with such chaos? This would not "send a calming signal to the markets" it would make everything worse, by giving the acute sense Britain has no functioning government at all. Enough! Get rid of her, back her, or call a fucking election. Them's the choices
    Handing the leadership vote to the party membership has uncoupled the executive from the majority in Parliament and thus broken the constitution.
    Maybe the Tories need to take a leaf out of the Labour party and give a proportion of the votes to the unions.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,668
    Leon said:

    Russian bombers capable of carrying nukes detected near Finland

    https://www.jpost.com/international/article-718618

    And.....


    "A column of heavy #Russian equipment carrying nuclear warheads was spotted in #Rostov ,#Putin #PutinWarCriminal #UkraineWar #Ukraine️ #UkraineWillWin #SlavaUkrainii #SlavaUkraïni #StandWithUkraine #Russia #nuclearwar"



    https://twitter.com/Feher_Junior/status/1575916429634830336?s=20&t=3c7bpfc_6GwUvIpPBYw8ww

    I may have to bring forward my Doomsday Finger Buffet


    NB: I have no idea if that video is genuine. The trees look suspiciously springlike, not autumnal, tho the weather matches the forecast for today in Rostov: clear and 24C
    No need to add to *the fear*. That's definitely spring. May Day parade somewhere?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    WillG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    In which Frankie Boyle demonstrates that he still doesn't understand deterrence

    "Amazing that no matter how bad things get, scrapping Trident is just never mentioned. A non issue across the political spectrum. The genius of placing it in Scotland, whose Unpeople may sadly have to be consumed by incendiary light, while more important matters are debated"

    https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/1575896652313153537?s=20&t=e-c9feUhLwyd5N3H1MCCqw

    Do you feel safer from homeland attack here than you would in Spain?
    Yes. Also safer than Germany, Holland, Poland, Baltics, etc

    eg There is a chance Putin will drop one strategic warhead to show he REALLY means it (I've seen this discussed by experts). Probably on a major western European nation

    Britain and France would be tempting targets, because they are rich, high profile and hostile to Russia, but they both have nukes. They will probably retaliate and smoke Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Catastrophe for Putin

    So Putin would choose somewhere else. So deterrence works

    We know this because Putin would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes. No one has tried to destroy Israel - because Israel has nukes. Ditto North Korea. And so on

    Nukes work. They deter. What fool would now unilaterally get rid of Trident, after all that we have seen?
    If Putin were to drop a strategic nuclear weapon on anywhere other than a remote location it's basically a suicide weapon. The gloves would come off and Nato would obliterate Russia's military, IT and infrastructure. The whole world would want him dead and I think he knows it.
    Probably yes, so if he's rational Putin won't do this

    But the theory is What if he is driven into irrationality by his desperation (and he is clearly desperate)

    A tactical nuke might not be enough to freak out the West, in his crazed mind. But what about one strategic warhead dropped on, say, Munich or Milan? And then he stands there waiting for us to blink and surrender Ukraine. Would America really ensure its own destruction by raining down nuclear fire on Russia, thus ensuring similar fire rains down on Chicago, LA, New York, Miami, all to Not save Munich, which is already gone?

    It's a profound question, and it would be the ultimate exploration of Deterrence Theory. And it is a possibility openly discussed on Russian TV

    The relevance to us is that Putin would not select Paris or London because France and the UK DO have nukes and would certainly retaliate, rendering this gamble a calamitous mistake from the get-go
    If there was US capitulation that scenario there is nothing stopping Putin dropping a nuke whenever he wants something. If he drops on Munich to use your example, for Ukraine, what is to stop him dropping on Madrid for Moldova? Amsterdam for the Baltics? Oslo for Poland?

    You are essentially giving him carte blanche to take whatever he wants of the non-nuclear world.

    So it wouldn’t work. Retaliation on a Russian city would be the bare minimum.

    What? I'm not giving anything I'm trying to work out IF the USA would retaliate, and how they would do it, in that scenario. And I'm not sure America would go full on total nuke exchange

    More likely they would do what you say. One Russian city. And then a desperate seeking of peace. Which might suit Putin completely
    This all reads like a fundamental misunderstanding of the American mentality. Italy and Germany are seen as part of the West, and the West is seen as America's gang. Tens of millions of Americans are proud of their Italian or German identity. A nuke dropped on one of those countries would absolutely lead to Russia losing one of its major cities. Quite likely Moscow.

    Which is why Russia won't do it. Putin knows all this. The people around him all know this. And if Putin really did go mad and try it, the people around him would block it, just as they blocked full mobilization.
    I mostly agree with you, apart from your last point

    I watched the annexation ceremony today. A truly bizarre event

    The relevance is that Putin looked completely mad, and the entire crowd looked terrified and disturbed, like kidnap victims, like he had them all there at gunpoint. Maybe he did, in effect

    I kept looking for signs they would stop this mad fucker. I could not see any, unfortunately. I just saw fear

    One hopes there is a Zhukov-like character hanging around the Kreml somewhere
    The people that would block him are not in that crowd. They are in the offices of Russian banks and the KGB. The KGB can assassinate him and the bankers can stop his funding. Putin is Peter III and the coup is inevitable. If he is lucky, cancer will get him first.
    Feels a bit "Prester John" to me, but I hope you are right
  • Who is the unity candidate for Tory party MPs realising that they face certain disaster at the polls unless Truss is replaced. They would have a year to 18 months to turn things around. Cometh the hour....
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507
    pigeon said:

    Lewis Goodall
    @lewis_goodall
    ·
    1h
    NEW: I understand “multiple” Conservative MPs are in talks with Labour in Parliament to defeat elements of the “mini-budget. Particular focus on 45p rate. Focus is on sending a signal to markets.

    Edit: One of the MPs is Liz Truss (probably) :smile:

    If enough of them rebel over a vote on supply then the likelihood of an election greatly increases. The normal response to this would be withdrawal of the whip, ergo the effective loss of Truss's Parliamentary majority.
    If you're a Tory MP convinced your seat is beyond saving why not stand up and risk having the whip withdrawn?
  • kinabalu said:

    Off topic: Just finished The Capture and I must be losing faculties now I'm getting old, because at no point did I have a clue what was going on.

    Helps if you have watched series 1 from 2019....

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    edited September 2022

    Leon said:

    Russian bombers capable of carrying nukes detected near Finland

    https://www.jpost.com/international/article-718618

    And.....


    "A column of heavy #Russian equipment carrying nuclear warheads was spotted in #Rostov ,#Putin #PutinWarCriminal #UkraineWar #Ukraine️ #UkraineWillWin #SlavaUkrainii #SlavaUkraïni #StandWithUkraine #Russia #nuclearwar"



    https://twitter.com/Feher_Junior/status/1575916429634830336?s=20&t=3c7bpfc_6GwUvIpPBYw8ww

    I may have to bring forward my Doomsday Finger Buffet


    NB: I have no idea if that video is genuine. The trees look suspiciously springlike, not autumnal, tho the weather matches the forecast for today in Rostov: clear and 24C
    No need to add to *the fear*. That's definitely spring. May Day parade somewhere?
    Yes thats certainly not clandestine movement of ordnance into position for nefarious attack. It is very 'parade'
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    WillG said:

    I wonder who Delingpole is referring to?

    "The same people who engineered and financed World Wars 1 and 2 are now trying to start World War 3 - and for the same reasons. The only difference this time is that a lot more of us are wise to their game."

    https://twitter.com/JamesDelingpole/status/1575404258505138181

    (hat-tip to Tim, once of this parish)

    The conspiracy theories over WW1 and WW2 really are a good example of showing who is unhinged. And it is almost always extreme right wing reactionaries that would prefer Putinism to Western Enlightenment democracy.
    Delingpole works with Lawrence Fox a lot now apparently....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    Russian bombers capable of carrying nukes detected near Finland

    https://www.jpost.com/international/article-718618

    And.....


    "A column of heavy #Russian equipment carrying nuclear warheads was spotted in #Rostov ,#Putin #PutinWarCriminal #UkraineWar #Ukraine️ #UkraineWillWin #SlavaUkrainii #SlavaUkraïni #StandWithUkraine #Russia #nuclearwar"



    https://twitter.com/Feher_Junior/status/1575916429634830336?s=20&t=3c7bpfc_6GwUvIpPBYw8ww

    I may have to bring forward my Doomsday Finger Buffet


    NB: I have no idea if that video is genuine. The trees look suspiciously springlike, not autumnal, tho the weather matches the forecast for today in Rostov: clear and 24C
    No need to add to *the fear*. That's definitely spring. May Day parade somewhere?
    Yes, looks like spring
  • glw said:

    If Russia tried to bomb the UK most of their missiles would probably be duds and those that aren't could be intercepted.

    Quite frankly, Russia isn't the USSR and doesn't have the capabilities to annihilate the world, any more than it has the capability to take Kyiv.

    How's that going to happen? The UK has nothing that can intercept an ICBM.
    America does though.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Who is the unity candidate for Tory party MPs realising that they face certain disaster at the polls unless Truss is replaced. They would have a year to 18 months to turn things around. Cometh the hour....

    There isn't one. A bit of unpopularity you can turn around. What we've seen now? Nope.

    As for unity, well, the JRM gang were already ranting about traitors, so they won't unify with anyone who isn't them, and there's a hard core on the other side who are opposed to a JRM type (which unfortunately it turns out Truss is).

    Maybe someone like Wallace could have, he seems a bit of a blank slate, but he went all in on how great Truss was going to be.
  • Who is the unity candidate for Tory party MPs realising that they face certain disaster at the polls unless Truss is replaced. They would have a year to 18 months to turn things around. Cometh the hour....

    Someone strong and stable.
    image
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    As luck would have it I am just looking at my insurance policy.

    There is no cover for:

    10) War, terrorism, radioactive contamination and pressure waves
    Any claim resulting directly or indirectly from or in connection with:
    a) war, terrorism, invasion, act of foreign enemy, hostilities or warlike operations
    (whether war be declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection,
    uprising, military or usurped power;
    b) ionising radiation or contamination by radioactivity from any nuclear fuel or any
    nuclear waste from the combustion of nuclear fuel;
    c) the radioactive, toxic, explosive or other hazardous properties of any explosive
    nuclear assembly or nuclear component of it;
    d) pressure waves caused by aircraft or other aerial devices travelling at sonic or
    supersonic speed.

    It's against the rules of Lloyd's and I assume also the companies market to write land based war risks.
    You can buy war-on-land coverage. Just not in a current war zone.
    Not at Lloyd's unless the rules have changed
    Lloyd's writes War and Terrorism coverage, either separately or combined, all the time - including sabotage (if you want). In marine, non-marine and aviation markets. It has done since it was founded. More-or-less.

    War-on-land is a commonly bought coverage for cargo risks for example. Lloyd's is not prevented from writing this at all. In fact there are underwriters specialising in it. Lloyd's cannot write coverage for radioactive contamination either from terror or war, but that's pretty much the only limit.

    Not sure why you think Lloyd's is banned from writing W&T.

    Someone ought to tell these people then.

    https://www.beazley.com/london_market/political_risks_and_contingency/terrorism.html
    Because I know more about Lloyd's than you do, read this

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.lloyds.com/media/a9760e12-037d-4cb9-b65b-236f457b8600/Y4483---The-underwriting-of-war,-civil-war-and-related-perils.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwix4Pvfi736AhXagVwKHdzrACkQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw22FGWBseH3Xr4Gv0GE1bXD
    I know a lot more about Lloyd's than you.

    That was a Market Circular instructing underwriters to more closely monitor their issued policies to exactly define if war was/is covered - as many legacy policies were vague and open to challenge. So a suite of LMA endorsements was issued to more tightly control these open policies.

    If you even read the document you evidently just dumped here hoping to win your argument then what it basically says:


    "Managing agents should ensure that they clearly document the scope of any war, civil war
    and related perils cover provided.
    Where cover is not provided, managing agents should ensure that a suitable exclusion
    clause is included in the policy terms and conditions. A number of model clauses have
    been developed by the LMA for this purpose.
    Where cover is to be given, the scope of cover should be clearly stated either in a separate
    policy or in a separately identifiable section of the policy. A number of model clauses have
    been developed by the LMA for certain classes that specifically provide for extended
    coverage, such as personal accident. Model clauses have also been developed by various
    market committees in the marine and aviation markets. "

    Sorry. Lloyd's writes war and terrorism. Why don't you just admit you're wrong. For once.
    I never don't admit I am wrong. I have read the document, why would I not? I spent much of the 80s and 90s litigating in the London marine insurance market and the rule then was no non marine war risks. You know as well as I do that a cargo policy is marine irrespective of the cargo being at sea or not so why pretend otherwise?
    I say you didn't read it as the document clearly states that in order to write W&T syndicates must include it in their annual business plan and thus be granted the relevant risk codes. It doesn't say they must NOT write it.

    Cargo is of course marine, or included in the "marine" umbrella. However "war" can of course be written on non-marine policies. As can terrorism. Property, Energy and PA all have such coverage wordings for a start - Christ even liability policies can buy these covers. In fact in the US offering TRIPRA cover is mandatory for property risks, and Lloyd's must comply. Why anyone would buy TRIPRA is another matter, but it is a (shit) terrorism cover nevertheless.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339

    Leon said:

    Russian bombers capable of carrying nukes detected near Finland

    https://www.jpost.com/international/article-718618

    And.....


    "A column of heavy #Russian equipment carrying nuclear warheads was spotted in #Rostov ,#Putin #PutinWarCriminal #UkraineWar #Ukraine️ #UkraineWillWin #SlavaUkrainii #SlavaUkraïni #StandWithUkraine #Russia #nuclearwar"



    https://twitter.com/Feher_Junior/status/1575916429634830336?s=20&t=3c7bpfc_6GwUvIpPBYw8ww

    I may have to bring forward my Doomsday Finger Buffet


    NB: I have no idea if that video is genuine. The trees look suspiciously springlike, not autumnal, tho the weather matches the forecast for today in Rostov: clear and 24C
    No need to add to *the fear*. That's definitely spring. May Day parade somewhere?
    Yes thats certainly not clandestine movement of ordnance into position for nefarious attack. It is very 'parade'
    Tho of course Putin might do it like this deliberately, in a flamboyant paradey way, to freak us out

    Nonetheless I reckon the vid is bogus. The trees are coming into leaf, like something almost being said. It's April or May, not Sept
This discussion has been closed.