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The first post leadership polling not good for Truss – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,993
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Weird troll. What’s the point?

    I read a report that predicted a rise in Russian sponsored troll activity around the time the Ruskies would cut off gas to the West.

    It is to sow discord.

    The irony is on here it just unites us more, I think 99% of this board are pro vaccines, so we united and laugh at them.
    Yes. Didn’t do much research

    One of the few things we DON’T argue about is the vax. Even @Dura_Ace - our only anti vaxxer? - lies low on this issue and is thereby tolerated

    The troll should have waded in with a contentious point about fish stock in microwaved risottos
    I don't think Dura_Ace is an antivaxxer in the pure sense.

    Only Misty and Contrarian are/were only bona fide antivaxxers.
    AIUI DA as a convinced vegan refuses to take the vaccine because it was tested on animals.

    Which is fair enough even if I think he's wrong.

    Contrarian, both in that name and as Misty, is just a complete bellend. A conspiracy theorist nut with a small brain and a massive ego.

    Did we ever find out if he actually does work for the DfE or SLC?
    I’m going to defend MISTY

    He/she is a valuable poster from the Trumpite right (albeit British). This is a voice almost unheard on PB, but it represents 74m English speakers in America, and we need to listen

    It will be a sad day on PB when we chase people off just for having contrary and unpopular opinions. That’s surely the joy of the site. All get a hearing, as long as they obey the rules and don’t mention that Mike SMITHSON is going a bit thin on top

    Nah, he's just an imbecile. Half the time he doesn't seem to know what he's posted.

    A day or so ago he was blasting Biden for calling Trump a fascist and asking if Lincoln would have said that.

    When I pointed out Lincoln had said much worse than that about the confederates, he went off on an incredible drunken rant about how that wasn't important because they were just words.
    Fair enough. You’re entitled to your opinion, natch

    Just don’t ban people for being imbeciles - or Trumpites. Let all voices join the choir. Free speech is getting ever rarer as all sides polarise. pb Is a splendid exception. I may have to stop before I get emotional
    I don't think I've ever suggested anyone be banned, although I could be wrong. Not even our favourite ex-army officer, who got very hot under the collar and abusive to the extent of actually libelling me after I criticised him for being a bully, as is his wont.

    I haven't, for the matter of that, asked for Misty to be banned. I'm just pointing out he's a nasty piece of work and totally unreliable.
    Indeed. You haven’t called for anyone to be banned IIRC

    Tho that starts to make me suspicious. Perhaps you should be banned for being weirdly reasonable at all times
    It's my background in Newent, of course.

    I even have many good words for the DfE.

    Words like scum, fools, drunks...
    … astronaut candidates…..
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,109
    ydoethur said:

    *Shakes head slowly.*

    You must admire the Conservative talent for the impossible. They sacked the worst a PM of all time, the man who after two centuries dethroned Goderich, and got somebody who seems likely to be even worse.

    As Truss succeeds Johnson, I am reminded of a time I had norovirus on holiday. I had been wracked by vomiting until I wished I was dead, and when it finally subsided, along came a merciless onslaught of diarrhoea.
    https://twitter.com/cbrookmyre/status/1566878906573115395
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,506

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?
    You’re quite right. From that same piece



    “It’s horrifying that she is someone who has supported the Rwanda deportation policy, the further demonising of refugees and migrants, and also the issue of Shamima Begum,” she said.

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    WTAF

    Could they not have started with just one article saying Whoah this is refreshing and encouraging.

    And what has Begum got to do with it?

    This goes beyond Uncle Tom, you get the sense they want to say “House N-word”

    Yuk
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,990

    Must say having a good old-fashioned anti-vaxxer on the board makes a refreshing change from the Russian trolls we've had recently.

    The timing is perhaps something to do with the publication of this paper ?

    Long-term cardiac pathology in individuals with mild initial COVID-19 illness
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02000-0
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,613
    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?
    You’re quite right. From that same piece



    “It’s horrifying that she is someone who has supported the Rwanda deportation policy, the further demonising of refugees and migrants, and also the issue of Shamima Begum,” she said.

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    WTAF

    Could they not have started with just one article saying Whoah this is refreshing and encouraging.

    And what has Begum got to do with it?

    This goes beyond Uncle Tom, you get the sense they want to say “House N-word”

    Yuk
    They want to say...NEWENT?

    THE HORROR.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,850
    edited September 5
    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    *Shakes head slowly.*

    You must admire the Conservative talent for the impossible. They sacked the worst a PM of all time, the man who after two centuries dethroned Goderich, and got somebody who seems likely to be even worse.

    As Truss succeeds Johnson, I am reminded of a time I had norovirus on holiday. I had been wracked by vomiting until I wished I was dead, and when it finally subsided, along came a merciless onslaught of diarrhoea.
    https://twitter.com/cbrookmyre/status/1566878906573115395
    I'm not normally one to engage in schadenfreude or wanting things to happen to make the other side 'cry' but reading that brought a smile to my lips.

    If half the FBPE obsessives you retweet here are as disappointed then that adds a bit of extra happiness to the day.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,960

    ydoethur said:

    Most incredible storm in the Midlands right now. Epicentre AFAICS is somewhere near Walsall. Lightning, thunder and torrential rain.

    There's a band across the whole country from Liverpool to Portsmouth.

    There were a huge number of lightning strikes over the UK last night (36k or something). Looks like a repeat tonight.
    Currently just reaching @NickPalmer in Farnham and heading for London. A narrow but intense band of rain and embedded thunderstorms.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,988
    Leon said:

    It's started.



    Awww bless

    It took the eurosceptics 41 years to get their referendum, so on that basis this campaign should bear fruit in 2063, by which time we will all have morphed into quasi-organic data sets onto mega-alien computers on the meta-planet Zuck 4.9
    I was struck by your quote about Begum the other night, calling for her execution. As much as I feel profound sadness for her plight, I don't quite know what your excuse is for being the human being you have morphed into.

  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,119
    edited September 5
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Only 1 in 7 Britons say Truss will be better than Boris Johnson as PM - poll http://reut.rs/3QldUKh https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1566891657810911237/photo/1

    *Shakes head slowly.*

    You must admire the Conservative talent for the impossible. They sacked the worst a PM of all time, the man who after two centuries dethroned Goderich, and got somebody who seems likely to be even worse.

    Although a talent for doing the impossible might come in useful at the moment.
    The counterpoint on that is has any party ever introduced a new PM the public are so distrusting of?

    Most PMs start with some goodwill before they mess everything up. Could Truss start with such low expectations that it could actually help her?

    FWIW I actually expect a “Truss is actually pretty good/we misjudged her” narrative to develop around late October through to the new year, when it will then probably come crashing down a la Theresa May.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,274
    Just caught up.on the Priti Patel news.
    I've a lot of time for her, despite opposite political views.
    She ploughs her own furrow. Nobody's patsy. Quits on her own terms.
    Admirable.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,644

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The big what?
    The big cliffhanger?
    The Big Lebowski?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,907

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Weird troll. What’s the point?

    I read a report that predicted a rise in Russian sponsored troll activity around the time the Ruskies would cut off gas to the West.

    It is to sow discord.

    The irony is on here it just unites us more, I think 99% of this board are pro vaccines, so we united and laugh at them.
    But, with all respect, why here?
    We're an agenda setting blog, I think 30% of our traffic emanates from Westminster IP addresses.

    Dave (pbuh) was a lurker whilst he was LOTO and PM.
    What amuses me is how comments (and that's below the line, from regular posters) can suspiciously work their way into MSM op-eds within 24-48 hours of their first appearance on here, and only on here.
    The funniest thing was on GE 2017 night.

    About a dozen people contacted me saying listening to George Osborne on the ITV coverage was just like reading my comments/posts/tweets.

    It was frighteningly uncanny.
    The power of telepathy? Except for the profanity and double entendres. I mean Gids, not you, of course.
    Please, it is single entendres.

    If only Penny Mordaunt had become PM today, we would finally have a PM who shared my sense of humour.
    But she's a PM anyway, so your conditional is still fulfilled.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Leon said "I’m pretty sure one well known Spectator writer just steals my stuff wholesale and turns it into articles on the magazine. Frankly, I don’t know what to do about it. Gone beyond a joke now"

    Plagiarism is rife and always has been. There is a continuous spectrum from subconscious to cut-and-paste. It would make a good topic for research for somebody. say Bill Bryson.

    Kids pay to have essays written in this digital age.

    A one-time presidents' wifes' speechwriter drew upon a Michelle Obama speech.

    In mathematics & theoretical physics it becomes easier to spot: I once had a quite long equation, the "piece de resistance " of a paper on the orbital shielding of magnetic nuclei published a few years "rederived" somewhat later later by someone else in exactly the same form, symbol by symbol. Hardly Nobel prize level though. That happens too of course.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,506
    tyson said:

    Leon said:

    It's started.



    Awww bless

    It took the eurosceptics 41 years to get their referendum, so on that basis this campaign should bear fruit in 2063, by which time we will all have morphed into quasi-organic data sets onto mega-alien computers on the meta-planet Zuck 4.9
    I was struck by your quote about Begum the other night, calling for her execution. As much as I feel profound sadness for her plight, I don't quite know what your excuse is for being the human being you have morphed into.

    I never said that. I said she should be handed over to the Syrians, Kurds or Iraqis, so they can serve their justice on her. Given that her victims were Syrians and Iraqis this seems morally right. And given that she is right now in Syria

    And then I added: and if their verdict is the death penalty, so be it. It’s their country and their justice
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?
    You’re quite right. From that same piece



    “It’s horrifying that she is someone who has supported the Rwanda deportation policy, the further demonising of refugees and migrants, and also the issue of Shamima Begum,” she said.

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    WTAF

    Could they not have started with just one article saying Whoah this is refreshing and encouraging.

    And what has Begum got to do with it?

    This goes beyond Uncle Tom, you get the sense they want to say “House N-word”

    Yuk
    If only there were a permanently white middle class male run party that could just assume it deserves the votes of all ethnic minorities, that would show that racist equal opportunity government with its broad cabinet representation
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Only 1 in 7 Britons say Truss will be better than Boris Johnson as PM - poll http://reut.rs/3QldUKh https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1566891657810911237/photo/1

    *Shakes head slowly.*

    You must admire the Conservative talent for the impossible. They sacked the worst a PM of all time, the man who after two centuries dethroned Goderich, and got somebody who seems likely to be even worse.

    Although a talent for doing the impossible might come in useful at the moment.
    Give them their due, they've chosen someone likely to be awful in a different way.

    Johnson really shouldn't have been let near Downing Street, because it was predictable that it was going to go wrong something like this- the only question was when. But, in the right light, and if you don't check the receipts, you could always see the point. BoJo may not be the great hero he clearly wanted to be, but he could impersonate one. His tragedy is that the impersonation never became the real man (it happens from time to time).

    Truss is bad, but in a different way. Adminstratively she seems more capable (how could she be less so?), personally less tawdry (ditto). But her vision is batso, her willingness to tolerate tawdry in others is craven and her ability to do political basics looks minimal.

    And that exchange of a bad person for a bad politician is why Conservatives will continue to bicker about whether they were right to drop Bozza.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233
    IshmaelZ said:

    Certainly the theory that Tory leaders alternate interesting/dull was first enunciated btl here and nicked by pro columnists immediately.

    Spontaneous invention?
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    Leon said:

    Woke department, channelling Leon - an interesting piece about how the meaning of "Jerusalem" has changed back and forth over the years. The musical discussion is over my head, but I see the abiguity of the text.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/sep/05/anti-empire-anti-fascist-pro-suffragette-last-night-of-the-proms-jerusalem-william-blake

    Ah, the annual culture war over Last Night of the Proms is just round the corner, isn't it?

    Joy.
    I feel for Leon when he realises Last Night of the Proms is straight out of the fascism playbook.
    Jingoism. Not Fascism. Important difference

    Every country needs a bit of jingoism. I’m glad that ours is a big gutsy cheerful singalong, not a vulgar military parade like Paris on Bastille Day
    If the Bastille Day parade featured the Count of Paris on a balcony with his family, giving it some of the ol' "Franz Joseph", it might just about be comparable in the vulgarity stakes with the annual Trooping the Colour plus the almost daily changing of the guard outside Buckingham Palace. The British monarchy is practically the definition of vulgar.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,506
    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?
  • Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    Woke department, channelling Leon - an interesting piece about how the meaning of "Jerusalem" has changed back and forth over the years. The musical discussion is over my head, but I see the abiguity of the text.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/sep/05/anti-empire-anti-fascist-pro-suffragette-last-night-of-the-proms-jerusalem-william-blake

    Ah, the annual culture war over Last Night of the Proms is just round the corner, isn't it?

    Joy.
    I feel for Leon when he realises Last Night of the Proms is straight out of the fascism playbook.
    Jingoism. Not Fascism. Important difference

    Every country needs a bit of jingoism. I’m glad that ours is a big gutsy cheerful singalong, not a vulgar military parade like Paris on Bastille Day
    If the Bastille Day parade featured the Count of Paris on a balcony with his family, giving it some of the ol' "Franz Joseph", it might just about be comparable in the vulgarity stakes with the annual Trooping the Colour plus the almost daily changing of the guard outside Buckingham Palace. The British monarchy is practically the definition of vulgar.
    I'm a republican, but piss off Russian troll is all I have to say to that.
  • Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    Representation is about having diversity in everything, except thought.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,960


    I'm not normally one to engage in schadenfreude or wanting things to happen to make the other side 'cry' but reading that brought a smile to my lips.

    If half the FBPE obsessives you retweet here are as disappointed then that adds a bit of extra happiness to the day.

    I said earlier I wished Liz Truss well as Prime Minister.

    That doesn't alter the fact I am opposed to her fundamentally and philosophically.

    She has a huge responsibility to provide leadership to the country - my hope is her ideological motivations are trumped by more pragmatic thinking and the good governance of the country is her priority rather than delivering on the dogmatic requirements of her supporters.

    If, or when, she leaves office we can pass judgement. If she leaves office following a free and fair General Election and a new non-Conservative Government takes over, I hope you'll be man enough to wish the new administration well.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    You must also hold the correct views. Marxism trumps all.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,119
    dixiedean said:

    Just caught up.on the Priti Patel news.
    I've a lot of time for her, despite opposite political views.
    She ploughs her own furrow. Nobody's patsy. Quits on her own terms.
    Admirable.

    I could find myself having a grudging admiration for Priti Patel if I thought her any way competent.

    Unfortunately she strikes me as actually being the worst of both worlds - mean-spirited and incompetent, so I find it difficult to have any kind of positive feelings for her.

    However it looks like she is being replaced by Suella Braverman, so in 6 months time I may look back at the halcyon days of the Prittster with fondness.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,920
    .
    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    Labour have never come close to electing a female leader. Their best chance of a non white leader was Chuka and he was hounded out the party to the Lib Dems along with most of the Jewish MPs. And yet somehow they claim to be the party of feminism and racial equality. Ridiculous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233
    edited September 5
    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    Well, what the f*ck is it about then?

    I can practically feel the mental contortions from the mental position of celebrating diversity in itself, to saying it is meaningless in these particular instances.

    The rapid rise of diversity among the top echelons of MPs in the last 2 decades is something that should be a simple, non-partisan thing to celebrate.

    This shift has been remarkably fast. It now seems extraordinary to recall that no British Asian had ever served in cabinet until Sayeeda Warsi in 2010, nor any Asian MP until Sajid Javid as late as 2014. Paul Boateng, in 2001, was the first-ever black cabinet minister – among just three non-white cabinet ministers under New Labour.

    https://www.easterneye.biz/we-must-focus-on-action-while-talking-about-race/

    In fact, whilst the number of women is till nowhere near parity with men, with increasing diversity and its status as the gayest parliament in the world, the UK parliament has made some great strides on representation.
  • stodge said:


    I'm not normally one to engage in schadenfreude or wanting things to happen to make the other side 'cry' but reading that brought a smile to my lips.

    If half the FBPE obsessives you retweet here are as disappointed then that adds a bit of extra happiness to the day.

    I said earlier I wished Liz Truss well as Prime Minister.

    That doesn't alter the fact I am opposed to her fundamentally and philosophically.

    She has a huge responsibility to provide leadership to the country - my hope is her ideological motivations are trumped by more pragmatic thinking and the good governance of the country is her priority rather than delivering on the dogmatic requirements of her supporters.

    If, or when, she leaves office we can pass judgement. If she leaves office following a free and fair General Election and a new non-Conservative Government takes over, I hope you'll be man enough to wish the new administration well.
    Absolutely, of course I would. Heck I'm open minded enough I might have voted for the new administration, but that's looking less likely today than it was before this contest.

    Conceding defeat and wishing your opponents well after they win are the sine qua non of a healthy democracy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,506
    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    Woke department, channelling Leon - an interesting piece about how the meaning of "Jerusalem" has changed back and forth over the years. The musical discussion is over my head, but I see the abiguity of the text.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/sep/05/anti-empire-anti-fascist-pro-suffragette-last-night-of-the-proms-jerusalem-william-blake

    Ah, the annual culture war over Last Night of the Proms is just round the corner, isn't it?

    Joy.
    I feel for Leon when he realises Last Night of the Proms is straight out of the fascism playbook.
    Jingoism. Not Fascism. Important difference

    Every country needs a bit of jingoism. I’m glad that ours is a big gutsy cheerful singalong, not a vulgar military parade like Paris on Bastille Day
    If the Bastille Day parade featured the Count of Paris on a balcony with his family, giving it some of the ol' "Franz Joseph", it might just about be comparable in the vulgarity stakes with the annual Trooping the Colour plus the almost daily changing of the guard outside Buckingham Palace. The British monarchy is practically the definition of vulgar.
    A vulgar parade of exquisitely well trained horses with some quaint old flags in a beautiful 18th century square, as opposed to trundling ICBMs on diesel lorries past the tomb of a murderous tyrant, as happens on Moscow on Mayday?

    Ok
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,431
    Toms said:

    Leon said "I’m pretty sure one well known Spectator writer just steals my stuff wholesale and turns it into articles on the magazine. Frankly, I don’t know what to do about it. Gone beyond a joke now"

    Plagiarism is rife and always has been. There is a continuous spectrum from subconscious to cut-and-paste. It would make a good topic for research for somebody. say Bill Bryson.

    Kids pay to have essays written in this digital age.

    A one-time presidents' wifes' speechwriter drew upon a Michelle Obama speech.

    In mathematics & theoretical physics it becomes easier to spot: I once had a quite long equation, the "piece de resistance " of a paper on the orbital shielding of magnetic nuclei published a few years "rederived" somewhat later later by someone else in exactly the same form, symbol by symbol. Hardly Nobel prize level though. That happens too of course.

    I published some data in a low quality journal once that was remeasured (to a better accuracy, but essentially the same) and then published in a better journal, with no citation. Annoyed at the time, but I’m over it now.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,920
    edited September 5
    What do we suppose Boris is doing on his final night as PM? Taking his pick of the wine cellar? Defacing the gold wallpaper with his bodily fluids? Something good I bet.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,222
    edited September 5
    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    It's just the kind of of solely identity-led worldview that will never achieve the expected or desired effect on its own, just as purely class-led identity politics doesn't achieve the expected result either. Being working-class or from an ethnic minority just doesn't necessarily or intrinsically make one socially any more radical.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,811
    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    I think it's progress. I've said so before. But if you're a black bus driver or a nurse of Indian descent, you're unlikely to feel especially represented by the Cabinet. The Conservative Party no longer minds people of ethnic minorities, on condition that they're rich or move in rich circles. It's better than the raw prejudice of yesteryear, but doesn't take us very far.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,474
    Leon said:

    tyson said:

    Leon said:

    It's started.



    Awww bless

    It took the eurosceptics 41 years to get their referendum, so on that basis this campaign should bear fruit in 2063, by which time we will all have morphed into quasi-organic data sets onto mega-alien computers on the meta-planet Zuck 4.9
    I was struck by your quote about Begum the other night, calling for her execution. As much as I feel profound sadness for her plight, I don't quite know what your excuse is for being the human being you have morphed into.

    I never said that. I said she should be handed over to the Syrians, Kurds or Iraqis, so they can serve their justice on her. Given that her victims were Syrians and Iraqis this seems morally right. And given that she is right now in Syria

    And then I added: and if their verdict is the death penalty, so be it. It’s their country and their justice
    You wrote "drone her".
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 17,626
    I guess Priti's resignation means that my theory that her and The Truss are having an intimate relationship is somewhat wide of mark.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    edited September 5
    moonshine said:

    What do we suppose Boris is doing on his final night as PM? Taking his pick of the wine cellar? Defacing the gold wallpaper with his bodily fluids? Something good I bet.

    Diligently working on the CoL and Ukraine crises whilst taking his turn at caring for the kids and ensuring he has filled in his declarations and discolures correctly.
    Id be shocked if its not that.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,811
    stodge said:

    ydoethur said:

    Most incredible storm in the Midlands right now. Epicentre AFAICS is somewhere near Walsall. Lightning, thunder and torrential rain.

    There's a band across the whole country from Liverpool to Portsmouth.

    There were a huge number of lightning strikes over the UK last night (36k or something). Looks like a repeat tonight.
    Currently just reaching @NickPalmer in Farnham and heading for London. A narrow but intense band of rain and embedded thunderstorms.
    Yes, lots of refreshing wind and rain out there (Godalming, near Farnham)! Very nice.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233
    moonshine said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    Labour have never come close to electing a female leader. Their best chance of a non white leader was Chuka and he was hounded out the party to the Lib Dems along with most of the Jewish MPs. And yet somehow they claim to be the party of feminism and racial equality. Ridiculous.
    I don't think Labour are incapable of electing a woman just as the Tories are not incapable of electing a non white leader, even though they didn't today. But whilst overall Labour have overwhelming support from non-white voters (though clearly not universally), I don't know why some people seem to get furious at non-white Tories - it's not uncommon, so clearly they are representative of a certain strand of opinion, if indeed we must demand they represent someone more than their constituents of all kinds.

    But then I would say that as a middle class white person.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,431

    I guess Priti's resignation means that my theory that her and The Truss are having an intimate relationship is somewhat wide of mark.

    If PB is being picked up by Westminster and the media, might we see that particular rumour next?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,431

    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    I think it's progress. I've said so before. But if you're a black bus driver or a nurse of Indian descent, you're unlikely to feel especially represented by the Cabinet. The Conservative Party no longer minds people of ethnic minorities, on condition that they're rich or move in rich circles. It's better than the raw prejudice of yesteryear, but doesn't take us very far.
    I think that’s a pretty low comment Nick.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,920
    What state is the queen in do we reckon? Is this something like sciatica which means no long journeys ta? Or is the handover effectively going to be done by Charles and Elizabeth might not see London again? Really is remarkable to think we won’t see the cars going to the Palace as usual.

    Could be quite the baptism of fire for one time Republican Truss if she’s expected to carry the grief of the nation the way Blair did in ‘97. Do we think she has it in her?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,993
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    Well, what the f*ck is it about then?

    I can practically feel the mental contortions from the mental position of celebrating diversity in itself, to saying it is meaningless in these particular instances.

    The rapid rise of diversity among the top echelons of MPs in the last 2 decades is something that should be a simple, non-partisan thing to celebrate.

    This shift has been remarkably fast. It now seems extraordinary to recall that no British Asian had ever served in cabinet until Sayeeda Warsi in 2010, nor any Asian MP until Sajid Javid as late as 2014. Paul Boateng, in 2001, was the first-ever black cabinet minister – among just three non-white cabinet ministers under New Labour.

    https://www.easterneye.biz/we-must-focus-on-action-while-talking-about-race/

    In fact, whilst the number of women is till nowhere near parity with men, with increasing diversity and its status as the gayest parliament in the world, the UK parliament has made some great strides on representation.
    Back before SF accepted the Northern Ireland police service, there was a hilarious interview with one of their councillors.

    Apparently a 50% Catholic police force made no difference because any Catholic who joined the police force was a “Castle Catholic”.

    The journalist tried very hard to get the lady to describe how it might be possible to have a “representative” police force. But no, *any* Catholic joining the PSNI would transubstantiate into a Castle Catholic.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 17,626
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    Well, what the f*ck is it about then?

    I can practically feel the mental contortions from the mental position of celebrating diversity in itself, to saying it is meaningless in these particular instances.

    The rapid rise of diversity among the top echelons of MPs in the last 2 decades is something that should be a simple, non-partisan thing to celebrate.

    This shift has been remarkably fast. It now seems extraordinary to recall that no British Asian had ever served in cabinet until Sayeeda Warsi in 2010, nor any Asian MP until Sajid Javid as late as 2014. Paul Boateng, in 2001, was the first-ever black cabinet minister – among just three non-white cabinet ministers under New Labour.

    https://www.easterneye.biz/we-must-focus-on-action-while-talking-about-race/

    In fact, whilst the number of women is till nowhere near parity with men, with increasing diversity and its status as the gayest parliament in the world, the UK parliament has made some great strides on representation.
    Four non-white Chancellors back to back is certainly noteworthy. And all Tories.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,506

    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    I think it's progress. I've said so before. But if you're a black bus driver or a nurse of Indian descent, you're unlikely to feel especially represented by the Cabinet. The Conservative Party no longer minds people of ethnic minorities, on condition that they're rich or move in rich circles. It's better than the raw prejudice of yesteryear, but doesn't take us very far.
    This is pathetic. “Progressives” who claim to be exercised by racial justice should step back and take a long hard look at themselves

    Britain has come a long way. In a short while. The fact it is the Tory party leading the way might irk - but there it is. If you REALLY care about racial equality the first and unqualified reaction should be to cheer. That’s all. Leave the “but” for later

    This is so reminiscent of the ugly “she’s not really a woman” remarks from lefty feminists when Thatcher
    Ascended
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233
    edited September 5

    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    I think it's progress. I've said so before. But if you're a black bus driver or a nurse of Indian descent, you're unlikely to feel especially represented by the Cabinet. The Conservative Party no longer minds people of ethnic minorities, on condition that they're rich or move in rich circles. It's better than the raw prejudice of yesteryear, but doesn't take us very far.
    I'm none the wiser. By that logic its impossible to 'represent' people without embodying them? Why is there an expectation that an ethnic minority person has to align to a black bus driver or nurse of indian descent for it to 'count' as representation?

    Is that not placing increased demands on a non-white MP? It's not enough that they represent their constituents, or the country, they must, whatever their political beliefs, 'represent' someone of their own race or all non-white persons? Or some average view of them at least. How do they do that when the needs and views of a black bus driver or nurse of indian descent might be wildly divergent?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,117

    Snip

    Cyclefree said:


    Do I take it that Liz's big plan is to freeze prices for a few months, paid for by consumers and that nothing was said about businesses?

    Interesting that her vote share was lower than people seemed to expect.

    Rumour seems to be freeze them for 2 years (handily until the next election, I’m sure purely coincidental) and basically stick it on the credit card. Which is essentially the modern Tory way of governing.

    It is exactly what I was expecting and indeed I did mention this during the campaign (smug alert). Truss was never going to try and ride it out with some tax cuts and become the most unpopular PM in history a mere month after taking the job. This was always on the cards. The only thing she will focus on in the next 24 months is how she gets the Tories to a majority in 2024.

    Business needs help. If she doesn't help them it will affect voters. All the businesses round here are shit scared of what is coming. Closures have started. This means unemployment, lower incomes, loss of rent, rates, VAT, tax revenues, knock on effects on other businesses.

    A price cap for consumers won't be enough.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233

    I guess Priti's resignation means that my theory that her and The Truss are having an intimate relationship is somewhat wide of mark.

    Take it to the fanfic sites.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,993
    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    Woke department, channelling Leon - an interesting piece about how the meaning of "Jerusalem" has changed back and forth over the years. The musical discussion is over my head, but I see the abiguity of the text.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/sep/05/anti-empire-anti-fascist-pro-suffragette-last-night-of-the-proms-jerusalem-william-blake

    Ah, the annual culture war over Last Night of the Proms is just round the corner, isn't it?

    Joy.
    I feel for Leon when he realises Last Night of the Proms is straight out of the fascism playbook.
    Jingoism. Not Fascism. Important difference

    Every country needs a bit of jingoism. I’m glad that ours is a big gutsy cheerful singalong, not a vulgar military parade like Paris on Bastille Day
    If the Bastille Day parade featured the Count of Paris on a balcony with his family, giving it some of the ol' "Franz Joseph", it might just about be comparable in the vulgarity stakes with the annual Trooping the Colour plus the almost daily changing of the guard outside Buckingham Palace. The British monarchy is practically the definition of vulgar.
    The purpose of the Guards regiments is to bring some tone to the wars fought by the British military. Which otherwise would just be vulgar brawls….
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,506

    Leon said:

    tyson said:

    Leon said:

    It's started.



    Awww bless

    It took the eurosceptics 41 years to get their referendum, so on that basis this campaign should bear fruit in 2063, by which time we will all have morphed into quasi-organic data sets onto mega-alien computers on the meta-planet Zuck 4.9
    I was struck by your quote about Begum the other night, calling for her execution. As much as I feel profound sadness for her plight, I don't quite know what your excuse is for being the human being you have morphed into.

    I never said that. I said she should be handed over to the Syrians, Kurds or Iraqis, so they can serve their justice on her. Given that her victims were Syrians and Iraqis this seems morally right. And given that she is right now in Syria

    And then I added: and if their verdict is the death penalty, so be it. It’s their country and their justice
    You wrote "drone her".
    Did I? Oh well

    The drone might have missed
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,920

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    Well, what the f*ck is it about then?

    I can practically feel the mental contortions from the mental position of celebrating diversity in itself, to saying it is meaningless in these particular instances.

    The rapid rise of diversity among the top echelons of MPs in the last 2 decades is something that should be a simple, non-partisan thing to celebrate.

    This shift has been remarkably fast. It now seems extraordinary to recall that no British Asian had ever served in cabinet until Sayeeda Warsi in 2010, nor any Asian MP until Sajid Javid as late as 2014. Paul Boateng, in 2001, was the first-ever black cabinet minister – among just three non-white cabinet ministers under New Labour.

    https://www.easterneye.biz/we-must-focus-on-action-while-talking-about-race/

    In fact, whilst the number of women is till nowhere near parity with men, with increasing diversity and its status as the gayest parliament in the world, the UK parliament has made some great strides on representation.

    Four non-white Chancellors back to back is certainly noteworthy. And all Tories.
    I’ve just been sat here thinking “Philip Hammond wasn’t non white was he?! Did he have an Indian mother or something?”.

    Completely forgot about Zahawi. As I expect will historians.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,119

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    Well, what the f*ck is it about then?

    I can practically feel the mental contortions from the mental position of celebrating diversity in itself, to saying it is meaningless in these particular instances.

    The rapid rise of diversity among the top echelons of MPs in the last 2 decades is something that should be a simple, non-partisan thing to celebrate.

    This shift has been remarkably fast. It now seems extraordinary to recall that no British Asian had ever served in cabinet until Sayeeda Warsi in 2010, nor any Asian MP until Sajid Javid as late as 2014. Paul Boateng, in 2001, was the first-ever black cabinet minister – among just three non-white cabinet ministers under New Labour.

    https://www.easterneye.biz/we-must-focus-on-action-while-talking-about-race/

    In fact, whilst the number of women is till nowhere near parity with men, with increasing diversity and its status as the gayest parliament in the world, the UK parliament has made some great strides on representation.
    Four non-white Chancellors back to back is certainly noteworthy. And all Tories.
    And three female PMs. Even in 2000 if you’d have suggested to me that we’d be on our third female PM by 2022 I wouldn’t have believed it.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,654
    How does Liz sell a plan to have consumers pay back on energy over 20 years?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,200
    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    Yeah well the 'theory' just evolves and adapts to changing circumstances, as we know.
    The one thing though , is that it is a big mistake to keep going on about Begum.
    If Begum was a 15 year old white girl when she left the UK, then it would just be a case that she was 'groomed' and then 'trafficked to a foreign country' in an act of ' modern slavery/child sexual abuse' and there would be no question of her citizenship being revoked, quite the opposite, in fact she would be taken back and helped by 'specially trained officers' to overcome her 'brutal ordeal'.
    So when you reflect on it, it is pretty bad evidence of racism.
    Just because lots of 'woke' stuff is stupid, doesn't make this ok.
    I don't quite understand why Patel couldn't see the problem with this whole situation, she has had years and years to think about it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Not sure I remember the usual tabloids being so over the top gushing partisan.

    Desperate. Desperate. Desperate.

    They know the voters have rumbled the new PM.

  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,920
    kle4 said:

    moonshine said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    Labour have never come close to electing a female leader. Their best chance of a non white leader was Chuka and he was hounded out the party to the Lib Dems along with most of the Jewish MPs. And yet somehow they claim to be the party of feminism and racial equality. Ridiculous.
    I don't think Labour are incapable of electing a woman

    I will believe it when I see it. As I have posted for years, since before she became a lightning rod for the militant trans lobby, the best conceivable leader of the UK Labour Party is Jo Rowling. She would be a phenomenon and kill the wokist movement stone dead. She would get me voting Labour for sure.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,920
    Lightning has just knocked out my wifi. Time for bed then.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,095
    moonshine said:

    What do we suppose Boris is doing on his final night as PM? Taking his pick of the wine cellar? Defacing the gold wallpaper with his bodily fluids? Something good I bet.

    Oh do stop it. Who the fuck cares?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,222
    edited September 5
    moonshine said:

    What do we suppose Boris is doing on his final night as PM? Taking his pick of the wine cellar? Defacing the gold wallpaper with his bodily fluids? Something good I bet.

    A clinch with Carrie, a stroke of Larry, and some red wine on the sofa ? And some furious scribbled plottings for his return, perhaps ?
  • moonshine said:

    Lightning has just knocked out my wifi. Time for bed then.

    Get FTTP, no issues.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    Well, what the f*ck is it about then?

    I can practically feel the mental contortions from the mental position of celebrating diversity in itself, to saying it is meaningless in these particular instances.

    The rapid rise of diversity among the top echelons of MPs in the last 2 decades is something that should be a simple, non-partisan thing to celebrate.

    This shift has been remarkably fast. It now seems extraordinary to recall that no British Asian had ever served in cabinet until Sayeeda Warsi in 2010, nor any Asian MP until Sajid Javid as late as 2014. Paul Boateng, in 2001, was the first-ever black cabinet minister – among just three non-white cabinet ministers under New Labour.

    https://www.easterneye.biz/we-must-focus-on-action-while-talking-about-race/

    In fact, whilst the number of women is till nowhere near parity with men, with increasing diversity and its status as the gayest parliament in the world, the UK parliament has made some great strides on representation.
    Four non-white Chancellors back to back is certainly noteworthy. And all Tories.
    I think NickPalmer, though well meaning, has taken an uncharacteristically harsh view when he says the Tories 'no longer mind' people of ethnic minorities on condition that they're rich or move in rich circles.

    That may be what he, and many, think the focus of the Tories' policies means - after all, the position of many would be the Tories do not care sufficiently about the poor at all.

    But he has also been clear many times he believes most MPs, of all colours (ahem), are trying their best to do good. Some are just wrong about how they go about.

    Accordingly, it seems more probable that the majority of Tories no longer mind anyone...so long as the are Tory. Race is largely irrelevant in that, even if their policies are such that most ethnic minority support does not line up with them.

    The allegations of being anti-muslim seem like they'd have more legs.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,920
    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    What do we suppose Boris is doing on his final night as PM? Taking his pick of the wine cellar? Defacing the gold wallpaper with his bodily fluids? Something good I bet.

    Oh do stop it. Who the fuck cares?
    Well the new inhabitants of that living room do.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,506
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    I think it's progress. I've said so before. But if you're a black bus driver or a nurse of Indian descent, you're unlikely to feel especially represented by the Cabinet. The Conservative Party no longer minds people of ethnic minorities, on condition that they're rich or move in rich circles. It's better than the raw prejudice of yesteryear, but doesn't take us very far.
    I'm none the wiser. By that logic its impossible to 'represent' people without embodying them? Why is there an expectation that an ethnic minority person has to align to a black bus driver or nurse of indian descent for it to 'count' as representation?

    Is that not placing increased demands on a non-white MP? It's not enough that they represent their constituents, or the country, they must, whatever their political beliefs, 'represent' someone of their own race or all non-white persons? Or some average view of them at least. How do they do that when the needs and views of a black bus driver or nurse of indian descent might be wildly divergent?
    It’s intersectionality, darling

    @NickPalmer will only be satisfied when every single Tory cabinet member is a poor black crippled blind lesbian asexual vegan French-Azeri genderqueer mime artist with a terrible stammer…

    … and when that moment arrives I bet the Labour Party will still be led by a middle class middle aged white male lawyer who lives in north London
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,095

    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    I think it's progress. I've said so before. But if you're a black bus driver or a nurse of Indian descent, you're unlikely to feel especially represented by the Cabinet. The Conservative Party no longer minds people of ethnic minorities, on condition that they're rich or move in rich circles. It's better than the raw prejudice of yesteryear, but doesn't take us very far.
    I think that’s a pretty low comment Nick.
    As in spot on, yes.
  • How does Liz sell a plan to have consumers pay back on energy over 20 years?

    Don't talk about that bit now.

    If she's lucky, it will be someone else's problem when the bills come in.

    If she's unlucky, she will still be PM in 2025, and that will be an achievement, won't it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233
    moonshine said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    Well, what the f*ck is it about then?

    I can practically feel the mental contortions from the mental position of celebrating diversity in itself, to saying it is meaningless in these particular instances.

    The rapid rise of diversity among the top echelons of MPs in the last 2 decades is something that should be a simple, non-partisan thing to celebrate.

    This shift has been remarkably fast. It now seems extraordinary to recall that no British Asian had ever served in cabinet until Sayeeda Warsi in 2010, nor any Asian MP until Sajid Javid as late as 2014. Paul Boateng, in 2001, was the first-ever black cabinet minister – among just three non-white cabinet ministers under New Labour.

    https://www.easterneye.biz/we-must-focus-on-action-while-talking-about-race/

    In fact, whilst the number of women is till nowhere near parity with men, with increasing diversity and its status as the gayest parliament in the world, the UK parliament has made some great strides on representation.

    Four non-white Chancellors back to back is certainly noteworthy. And all Tories.
    I’ve just been sat here thinking “Philip Hammond wasn’t non white was he?! Did he have an Indian mother or something?”.

    Completely forgot about Zahawi. As I expect will historians.
    I'm glad he's getting shafted, at least from that position. Ridiculous though it was to resign 2 days after accepting a promotion to Cabinet, poor Michelle Donelan (our first Cabinet Member born in the 80s?) at least recognised telling the PM he had to go was incompatible with serving in his Cabinet.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233
    moonshine said:

    What state is the queen in do we reckon? Is this something like sciatica which means no long journeys ta? Or is the handover effectively going to be done by Charles and Elizabeth might not see London again? Really is remarkable to think we won’t see the cars going to the Palace as usual.

    Could be quite the baptism of fire for one time Republican Truss if she’s expected to carry the grief of the nation the way Blair did in ‘97. Do we think she has it in her?

    I think she's likely to overcompensate as a result (though the occasion will be be one for overwraugt statements).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 19,934
    BBC: Dorries was asked to carry on but decided not to.
  • Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    Woke department, channelling Leon - an interesting piece about how the meaning of "Jerusalem" has changed back and forth over the years. The musical discussion is over my head, but I see the abiguity of the text.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/sep/05/anti-empire-anti-fascist-pro-suffragette-last-night-of-the-proms-jerusalem-william-blake

    Ah, the annual culture war over Last Night of the Proms is just round the corner, isn't it?

    Joy.
    I feel for Leon when he realises Last Night of the Proms is straight out of the fascism playbook.
    Jingoism. Not Fascism. Important difference

    Every country needs a bit of jingoism. I’m glad that ours is a big gutsy cheerful singalong, not a vulgar military parade like Paris on Bastille Day
    If the Bastille Day parade featured the Count of Paris on a balcony with his family, giving it some of the ol' "Franz Joseph", it might just about be comparable in the vulgarity stakes with the annual Trooping the Colour plus the almost daily changing of the guard outside Buckingham Palace. The British monarchy is practically the definition of vulgar.
    The purpose of the Guards regiments is to bring some tone to the wars fought by the British military. Which otherwise would just be vulgar brawls….
    According to the quite brilliant Radio 4 programme presented by Mark Gatiss last week it seems the main purpose of Guardsmen in the 1950s and 60s was to provide escorts and a good time for the Gay community in Soho.

    If you get the chance to listen to the programme - Mr Lucas’s Diaries - do so. It is really really good and a fascinating insight into a bit of recent London history.

    Oh Just found it on 'Play It Again Sam'.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00138hx
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,444

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    Well, what the f*ck is it about then?

    I can practically feel the mental contortions from the mental position of celebrating diversity in itself, to saying it is meaningless in these particular instances.

    The rapid rise of diversity among the top echelons of MPs in the last 2 decades is something that should be a simple, non-partisan thing to celebrate.

    This shift has been remarkably fast. It now seems extraordinary to recall that no British Asian had ever served in cabinet until Sayeeda Warsi in 2010, nor any Asian MP until Sajid Javid as late as 2014. Paul Boateng, in 2001, was the first-ever black cabinet minister – among just three non-white cabinet ministers under New Labour.

    https://www.easterneye.biz/we-must-focus-on-action-while-talking-about-race/

    In fact, whilst the number of women is till nowhere near parity with men, with increasing diversity and its status as the gayest parliament in the world, the UK parliament has made some great strides on representation.
    Four non-white Chancellors back to back is certainly noteworthy. And all Tories.
    And three female PMs. Even in 2000 if you’d have suggested to me that we’d be on our third female PM by 2022 I wouldn’t have believed it.
    In descending order of competence...

    We have truly reached the point of equality when numpties become PM or great officers of State that are as useless as any posh white male.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Larry.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,274

    How does Liz sell a plan to have consumers pay back on energy over 20 years?

    No idea.
    Most seem to think prices in general will go down to what they were sometime soon.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    edited September 5
    Cyclefree said:

    Snip

    Cyclefree said:


    Do I take it that Liz's big plan is to freeze prices for a few months, paid for by consumers and that nothing was said about businesses?

    Interesting that her vote share was lower than people seemed to expect.

    Rumour seems to be freeze them for 2 years (handily until the next election, I’m sure purely coincidental) and basically stick it on the credit card. Which is essentially the modern Tory way of governing.

    It is exactly what I was expecting and indeed I did mention this during the campaign (smug alert). Truss was never going to try and ride it out with some tax cuts and become the most unpopular PM in history a mere month after taking the job. This was always on the cards. The only thing she will focus on in the next 24 months is how she gets the Tories to a majority in 2024.

    Business needs help. If she doesn't help them it will affect voters. All the businesses round here are shit scared of what is coming. Closures have started. This means unemployment, lower incomes, loss of rent, rates, VAT, tax revenues, knock on effects on other businesses.

    A price cap for consumers won't be enough.
    The purported plan includes some sort of cap for small and medium businesses and 'other measures' for larger businesses
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233

    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    Woke department, channelling Leon - an interesting piece about how the meaning of "Jerusalem" has changed back and forth over the years. The musical discussion is over my head, but I see the abiguity of the text.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/sep/05/anti-empire-anti-fascist-pro-suffragette-last-night-of-the-proms-jerusalem-william-blake

    Ah, the annual culture war over Last Night of the Proms is just round the corner, isn't it?

    Joy.
    I feel for Leon when he realises Last Night of the Proms is straight out of the fascism playbook.
    Jingoism. Not Fascism. Important difference

    Every country needs a bit of jingoism. I’m glad that ours is a big gutsy cheerful singalong, not a vulgar military parade like Paris on Bastille Day
    If the Bastille Day parade featured the Count of Paris on a balcony with his family, giving it some of the ol' "Franz Joseph", it might just about be comparable in the vulgarity stakes with the annual Trooping the Colour plus the almost daily changing of the guard outside Buckingham Palace. The British monarchy is practically the definition of vulgar.
    The purpose of the Guards regiments is to bring some tone to the wars fought by the British military. Which otherwise would just be vulgar brawls….
    According to the quite brilliant Radio 4 programme presented by Mark Gatiss last week it seems the main purpose of Guardsmen in the 1950s and 60s was to provide escorts and a good time for the Gay community in Soho.

    In the finest tradition of the Praetorian Guard.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian comment section is on top of all the major current social issues today, I see.

    "My online chess addiction was ruining my life. Something had to change".

    Elsewhere is a confused article first celebrating the lack of white men in key positions in the new government, but then apparebtly switching to saying these are the wrong sort of non-white men.

    They so wanted to use the words Uncle and Tom didn't they?

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about. That’s actually tokenism,” Aziz said. “I do not believe that these three appointments are going to change anything for the vast majority of people of colour in this country, particularly those of working-class backgrounds. I cannot celebrate these politicians, knowing what their track record is at a time of deep division”.“

    Well, what the f*ck is it about then?

    I can practically feel the mental contortions from the mental position of celebrating diversity in itself, to saying it is meaningless in these particular instances.

    The rapid rise of diversity among the top echelons of MPs in the last 2 decades is something that should be a simple, non-partisan thing to celebrate.

    This shift has been remarkably fast. It now seems extraordinary to recall that no British Asian had ever served in cabinet until Sayeeda Warsi in 2010, nor any Asian MP until Sajid Javid as late as 2014. Paul Boateng, in 2001, was the first-ever black cabinet minister – among just three non-white cabinet ministers under New Labour.

    https://www.easterneye.biz/we-must-focus-on-action-while-talking-about-race/

    In fact, whilst the number of women is till nowhere near parity with men, with increasing diversity and its status as the gayest parliament in the world, the UK parliament has made some great strides on representation.
    Four non-white Chancellors back to back is certainly noteworthy. And all Tories.
    And three female PMs. Even in 2000 if you’d have suggested to me that we’d be on our third female PM by 2022 I wouldn’t have believed it.
    In descending order of competence...

    We have truly reached the point of equality when numpties become PM or great officers of State that are as useless as any posh white male.
    You jest, but that's a big step. Because it is not tokenism, and they are appointed on the same basis as any other colleague, they can be criticised without worry in the same way.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Beeb: Nad turns down remaining as Culture and Close Down the BBC Sec.

    I am deliriously happy

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,274
    When we get a Cabinet minister who's lived a decade on benefits, that's inclusive.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,095
    kle4 said:

    moonshine said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    Labour have never come close to electing a female leader. Their best chance of a non white leader was Chuka and he was hounded out the party to the Lib Dems along with most of the Jewish MPs. And yet somehow they claim to be the party of feminism and racial equality. Ridiculous.
    I don't think Labour are incapable of electing a woman just as the Tories are not incapable of electing a non white leader, even though they didn't today. But whilst overall Labour have overwhelming support from non-white voters (though clearly not universally), I don't know why some people seem to get furious at non-white Tories - it's not uncommon, so clearly they are representative of a certain strand of opinion, if indeed we must demand they represent someone more than their constituents of all kinds.

    But then I would say that as a middle class white person.
    Diversity in the top jobs is to be celebrated. No caveat to that. What's a bit 'pass the sick bucket' is right wing loons who don't give a shit about racial equality trolling the left with nonsensical assertions that the make-up of this Truss cabinet shows the Tories are the bees knees on the subject and are more committed than Labour to fighting racism.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    dixiedean said:

    When we get a Cabinet minister who's lived a decade on benefits, that's inclusive.

    Not a decade but for quite a while now. Stick me in to bat
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233

    My son is 12 and tomorrow he will be onto his fifth PM of his lifetime.

    I was nearly 29 when I had my first five PMs in my lifetime.

    The lucky devil, so much more excitement. If only we could have been there in the Year of Five Emperors.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,506
    edited September 5
    In all seriousness this new Tory Cabinet is going to be quite startling in appearance

    A female leader with all three major places filled by minority ethnic MPs (even if they “don’t count” because they are posh)

    Labour is going to seem very white and perhaps a tad old fashioned in contrast. Maybe this accounts for lefty dyspepsia on here tonight
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited September 5

    Woke department, channelling Leon - an interesting piece about how the meaning of "Jerusalem" has changed back and forth over the years. The musical discussion is over my head, but I see the abiguity of the text.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/sep/05/anti-empire-anti-fascist-pro-suffragette-last-night-of-the-proms-jerusalem-william-blake

    Does Golda Schulz sing the Tory words "those Satanic mills", which change the entire articulation 180 degrees away from what William Blake actually wrote, namely "these Satanic mills"?

    Jazmin Sawyers sings the words right. So did Paul Robeson.

    You only have to look at the grammatical tenses and moods to appreciate that the last line of the second verse is the fulcrum. Whether it's "these" or "those" matters a LOT.

    Jason Whittaker wrote his long article without mentioning public schools at all, or for that matter the actual 1917 battle for Jerusalem either. Christians retook the city from Muslims who had held it since 1187. That was considered rather momentous at the time, especially by posh Brits for obvious reasons. ("Take that, Mr Saladin!") Nor does Whittaker mention that the BBC blasted the song out on the radio to celebrate the defeat of the 1926 general strike.

    Tories' mouths should burn when they try to appropriate anything by William Blake. It's even more annoying than John Major referencing George Orwell.

    Blake was the guy who wrote "The Little Black Boy" and called the cathedral in the City of London "Paul's" rather than "Saint Paul's". Any Tories reading this...had you met Blake, no, you wouldn't have got on with him.


  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,274

    dixiedean said:

    When we get a Cabinet minister who's lived a decade on benefits, that's inclusive.

    Not a decade but for quite a while now. Stick me in to bat
    You and me could smash this mate.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,143
    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    The guardian types can’t accept that someone from an ethnic minority could possibly want to be a Tory, so they convince themselves that e.g. Priti Patel is really a white man in disguise.
  • kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    BBC: Dorries was asked to carry on but decided not to.

    Happy days.

    Come on JRM, don't let us down, say you also feel it is time to step back.
    Frost is also out of the picture

    Just JRM to go
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648

    My eldest son is 12 and tomorrow he will be onto his fifth PM of his lifetime.

    I was nearly 29 when I had my first five PMs in my lifetime.

    Hmmm 4 by the time i was 5 but 18 when the fifth hit, now 12
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,771
    edited September 5
    Plus ça change … I'm old enough to remember what was said about Thatcher and Reagan by left-leaning superior people.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,984
    kle4 said:

    My son is 12 and tomorrow he will be onto his fifth PM of his lifetime.

    I was nearly 29 when I had my first five PMs in my lifetime.

    The lucky devil, so much more excitement. If only we could have been there in the Year of Five Emperors.
    We had the year of the three emperors in 1936. Three-fifths as exciting.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 19,934
    The idea that well-off people need government handouts to pay for their energy bills is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Just mooted on BBC Newsnight.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    moonshine said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Can we just reread that guardian quote about the Tory cabinet

    “It’s not enough to be a Black or ethnic minority politician in this country or a cabinet member. That’s not what representation is about.”

    What the holy fuck is “representation about” if occupying all the senior positions in the actual British cabinet - unprecedented in western politics - is not seen as some kind of “racial progress”?

    What does she want? What would satisfy Ms Shah, at least for now?

    Labour have never come close to electing a female leader. Their best chance of a non white leader was Chuka and he was hounded out the party to the Lib Dems along with most of the Jewish MPs. And yet somehow they claim to be the party of feminism and racial equality. Ridiculous.
    I don't think Labour are incapable of electing a woman just as the Tories are not incapable of electing a non white leader, even though they didn't today. But whilst overall Labour have overwhelming support from non-white voters (though clearly not universally), I don't know why some people seem to get furious at non-white Tories - it's not uncommon, so clearly they are representative of a certain strand of opinion, if indeed we must demand they represent someone more than their constituents of all kinds.

    But then I would say that as a middle class white person.
    Diversity in the top jobs is to be celebrated. No caveat to that. What's a bit 'pass the sick bucket' is right wing loons who don't give a shit about racial equality trolling the left with nonsensical assertions that the make-up of this Truss cabinet shows the Tories are the bees knees on the subject and are more committed than Labour to fighting racism.
    It can be overblown, certainly. It's why people like the original bit quoted should not give them an opening via caveats to over egg their achievements and whitewash any concerns.

    Likewise, three female PMs doesn't mean the Tories are the only ones who get the concerns of women. But if a fool claims they don't count as they had the wrong views and didn't really support women, well, that just helps the Tories so much.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    When we get a Cabinet minister who's lived a decade on benefits, that's inclusive.

    Not a decade but for quite a while now. Stick me in to bat
    You and me could smash this mate.
    Yeah, we got this. Proper bloke government
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Nad gone. Newsnight.

    I am so happy tonight
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,274
    Leon said:

    In all seriousness this new Tory Cabinet is going to be quite startling in appearance

    A female leader with all three major places filled by minority ethnic MPs (even if they “don’t count” because they are posh)

    Labour is going to seem very white and perhaps a tad old fashioned in contrast. Maybe this accounts for lefty dyspepsia on here tonight

    Identity politics.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 1,811

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    BBC: Dorries was asked to carry on but decided not to.

    Happy days.

    Come on JRM, don't let us down, say you also feel it is time to step back.
    Frost is also out of the picture

    Just JRM to go
    It does seem a bit odd that they don't want to continue under Truss when she's supposedly continuity Boris. Maybe she's about to do a Starmer and go all Centrist (I wish).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,095

    I guess Priti's resignation means that my theory that her and The Truss are having an intimate relationship is somewhat wide of mark.

    If PB is being picked up by Westminster and the media, might we see that particular rumour next?
    We should test this theory by floating something bizarre and seeing if it surfaces - the Wagatha Christie technique.

    Eg - I've heard Boris Johnson is being lined up for Santa at Harrods this year.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,233

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    BBC: Dorries was asked to carry on but decided not to.

    Happy days.

    Come on JRM, don't let us down, say you also feel it is time to step back.
    Frost is also out of the picture

    Just JRM to go
    Her appointments was my main concern about Truss, about whom otherwise I find nothing particularly worrisome (until we see the impact of her ideas, I suspect), so a good start so far.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,437
    edited September 5
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    My son is 12 and tomorrow he will be onto his fifth PM of his lifetime.

    I was nearly 29 when I had my first five PMs in my lifetime.

    The lucky devil, so much more excitement. If only we could have been there in the Year of Five Emperors.
    We had the year of the three emperors in 1936. Three-fifths as exciting.
    The abdication crisis was more exciting than the year of five emperors.

    It was great to see a Tory PM oust the monarch.

    Hopefully Liz Truss will follow in Baldwin’s august footsteps.

This discussion has been closed.