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BoJo goes next week but what then? – politicalbetting.com

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    On Boris. If you're a lying toad, I can't see that it matters much whether you're lazy or industrious, a genius or a plodder. You're still a lying toad.

    What have you got against toads?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    Scott_xP said:
    In that case, Truss is a symptom of a wider malaise. The Conservative Party have decided to please themselves, not the wider electorate.

    That rarely ends well.
    It is an inevitability that all political parties eventually equate what is in their interests with what is in the public's interest. Part of the point of their existence is that they know what is best.

    It's when they stop listening to the public and making at least small adjustments that things go wrong. Especially if they think it is unconscionable that the other side win, in which case anything is justified to retain power. See the Republicans.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,942
    Pulpstar said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Gas prices tumble
    Roe v Wade overturned

    Biden's ratings surge.

    Had Gas prices stayed high he would have struggled.
    Do you mean gas as in petrol? Or os the American price for gas as in gas a lot lower too?
    Luckily for Biden with large scale US fracking and the house of Saud keeping their oppression to globally unloved Yemen the USA is getting both cheap gas and cheap gas.
    Further, since the US export market for natural gas is constrained by supply chain issues (not enough LNG tankers for one) the Natural gas shortage for the rest of the world isn’t happening there.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Pulpstar said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Gas prices tumble
    Roe v Wade overturned

    Biden's ratings surge.

    Had Gas prices stayed high he would have struggled.
    Do you mean gas as in petrol? Or os the American price for gas as in gas a lot lower too?
    Luckily for Biden with large scale US fracking and the house of Saud keeping their oppression to globally unloved Yemen the USA is getting both cheap gas and cheap gas.
    But isn't the wholesale price of gas just that? We're told that if the North Sea produces more, it'll just be the same price as the old (albeit reduced a tad in totality). Nobody is obliged to explain, I can dmor if necessary.
    The wholesale price of LNG *delivered to Europe*, is higher than the same LNG delivered to the USA, because of the cost and availability of transport. A lot of the US supply is local, whereas most of the European supply is coming from either the US or Qatar, and the transport ships are running at capacity and still can’t fulfil demand.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    edited September 2022
    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Gas prices tumble
    Roe v Wade overturned

    Biden's ratings surge.

    Had Gas prices stayed high he would have struggled.
    Do you mean gas as in petrol? Or os the American price for gas as in gas a lot lower too?
    On the forecourts it has nudged below $4 per US gallon if you shop about, and radio stations report the latest prices daily.
    Nudged...
    https://twitter.com/GasBuddyGuy/status/1565313873741217793
    Ohhhh myyyy! RBOB* down another 5c/gal... opening the door to even more states- including AR, MS, TX, GA, LA, OK, SC, TN, AL and MO- who may see average #gasprices fall to under $3/gal. I estimate that 15 states get there, potentially by September 17 or so, barring hurricanes.

    *Reformulated Blendstock for Oxygenate Blending
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,175
    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...
  • ydoethur said:

    On Boris. If you're a lying toad, I can't see that it matters much whether you're lazy or industrious, a genius or a plodder. You're still a lying toad.

    What have you got against toads?
    Nothing, as long as they're honest, not lying.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Do we really think he cares enough to fight for a comeback, or does he just want to make quick money by writing columns and doing talks at fancy dinners? I mean, a comeback sounds like hard work, and we know Johnson hates hard work.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns as an MP rather than get kicked out by the electorate, that he'll become the Tory King over the Water, and he'll just make money doing the kind of stuff all ex PMs do.

    I dunno where people get the idea “Boris hates hard work”

    In his time he’s been a successful foreign correspondent, editor of the Spectator, mayor of London, Brexit campaigner, Commons MP, Cabinet Minister, and Prime Minister

    He’s also been a novelist, columnist and TV presenter. And he doesn’t slack when it comes to the laydeez

    You can dodge tasks in life, to an extent, but you can’t do all that without some real graft

    Boris’ “problem” is that he is very bright so he can make all this seem bumblingly effortless: so that is what people perceive
    Well, I do know him a bit, and my impression is that he avoids hard work, because he's found that he can get by without it. If you have a fast mind (and he does) you can get maybe 70% of your tasks done in 20% of the time available, and if you're also charming and amusing (and he is), you can top that up to an apparent 110%.

    I empathise a bit - I have a quick mind too (minus the charisma), and it's quite seductive not to bother with the 100%, especially as I don't find that really putting in the effort gets me to 100% quality anyway - more like 85%. Not comparing myself to the PM, but maybe there's a similar process going on. I've got this week off work, and in theory I could be taking the time to really understand some complex issue. Instead, it's more fun just to chat here.
    Every person I know who knows him says he is lazy, dating back to his schooldays. He was then and he is now and I think we have all seen that these past few years.

    Of course he is also immensely gifted and I'm sure has no problem whatsoever knocking out (phnarr) 1,000 amusing words for a Spectator or DT audience which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel but that's not to say there's no market for it. It is absolutely "real work" - it's just that it is the type that he has a natural affinity for.
    Re writing, it's much easier to knock off a general audience piece for a newspaper or magazine than it is to do a full scholarly paper. The former can be comment, it has far less detail to check, it is shorter, and so on. The latter has to be watertight and documented and all the bases and loopholes covered. It takes far, far longer to do. Indeed, they're so different that they almost need different brains - it's only the keyboard and screen that are in common. Being a Speccy columnist versus PM is like that. In the former, a CBA attitude is easy - you just pick a different topic or route. In the latter, it's fatal.

    That’s really not true. Otherwise all the people doing the hard, scholarly papers would be knocking out easy columns for £300,000 a year. They aren’t, because it is in fact difficult. Few have the skill. Those that do are therefore well rewarded

    One of these skills is concision. Making an interesting point in as few words as possible, while remaining memorable and vivid

    A lot of people who can technically “write” can’t do this, they write far too much and bore the reader
    They are different skills. Most academics can't write well, in the sense of making their subject matter gripping or comprehensible to the general reader, or even expressing themselves elegantly, but that doesn't matter as that's not the purpose of their writing. Being able to convey complex ideas to a general audience in a way that captures their imagination and leaves them better informed than they were before is very hard and few seem able to do it well. Being able to write memorable or amusing prose well is also difficult - certainly harder than purely academic writing but probably easier than conveying complex ideas in a readable way. Boris Johnson is highly skilled in this third field, although he is several rungs below PG Wodehouse, who seems to be who he is trying to emulate.
    There is no reason to think that being good at any of the three would make you good at running the country, but of the three I would expect skill in the second field to be the most advantageous, thinking of people like Thatcher or Blair.
    In my experience, academics often write worse prose than the average person on the Croydon tram. Prolix, obscure, full of jargon - it’s generally gibberish. There are rare and precious exceptions. Like Pinker or Scruton
    Most academics are very bad writers. I'm currently procrastinating because I should be reading and writing a second round referee report for an academic article that is boring and pedestrian beyond imagination. (I am not an academic, in part because I hate reading badly written stuff, but I have an academic training and it's useful to keep an oar in). But, most academic writing is not meant to be engaging or even penetrable for those outside of a narrow field, and being able to write well is neither necessary nor sufficient to succeed as an academic.
    I think the best writers manage to be both readable and substantive, and Johnson is much better at the first than the second. I think that explains some of his failings in office. But writing and governing are really very different fields, and there are way too many journalists trying to be politicians.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,853
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    My big hope is that DeSantis loses tbh
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,764
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HMS PoW off to dry dock in Rosyth. WESTLANT 2022 in the bin. US 2nd Fleet, who moved their own training program around to accomodate her, not amused.

    Sort it out, Truss.

    Well known for her naval engineering skills ?

    I suppose the could just decide to scrap it. That would sort it out.
    Though it would leave us with a complement of overpriced and relatively underperforming F35s.
    Underperforming? The Israelis are using them to wander through the Iranian air defence without getting detected.
    The F35B, which we ordered because we couldn't afford catapults, is more expensive, shorter range and has a reduced payload compared to the other models.
    Not really because if you go for the big wing C model you're committing to the vast training expense of CATOBAR aviation. Multiple dedicated air wings would be required so operating the B is much cheaper than the C.

    If the ambition is to have one part time air wing then the B is the only possible choice. C never made any sense for the UK.
  • dixiedean said:

    Just listened to Boris' energy speech.
    Then read Owen Jones on the same topic in the Guardian.
    They are in remarkable alignment on many points.

    They both think Starmer is a dud.
  • Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
  • MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:
    In that case, Truss is a symptom of a wider malaise. The Conservative Party have decided to please themselves, not the wider electorate.

    That rarely ends well.
    Under Johnson and Sunak the conservative party is making people poorer at the fastest rate in a century, we learned today.

    You are blaming Truss for wanting to veer away from their policies? LOL
    Yep. Utter pig-ignorant tone-deaf tin eardom.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,752
    edited September 2022
    With Boris's energy speech today, and Truss's recent pronouncements, it really does feel as if we're being gaslighted into believing that it's not the Conservatives, but some other party (Labour?), that's had the power to make decisions, both short-term and long-term, over the last 12 years.

    It's stunning chutzpah, but I'm not convinced it will work out as well for the Tories as it did in 2019.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 14,014

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Do we really think he cares enough to fight for a comeback, or does he just want to make quick money by writing columns and doing talks at fancy dinners? I mean, a comeback sounds like hard work, and we know Johnson hates hard work.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns as an MP rather than get kicked out by the electorate, that he'll become the Tory King over the Water, and he'll just make money doing the kind of stuff all ex PMs do.

    I dunno where people get the idea “Boris hates hard work”

    In his time he’s been a successful foreign correspondent, editor of the Spectator, mayor of London, Brexit campaigner, Commons MP, Cabinet Minister, and Prime Minister

    He’s also been a novelist, columnist and TV presenter. And he doesn’t slack when it comes to the laydeez

    You can dodge tasks in life, to an extent, but you can’t do all that without some real graft

    Boris’ “problem” is that he is very bright so he can make all this seem bumblingly effortless: so that is what people perceive
    Well, I do know him a bit, and my impression is that he avoids hard work, because he's found that he can get by without it. If you have a fast mind (and he does) you can get maybe 70% of your tasks done in 20% of the time available, and if you're also charming and amusing (and he is), you can top that up to an apparent 110%.

    I empathise a bit - I have a quick mind too (minus the charisma), and it's quite seductive not to bother with the 100%, especially as I don't find that really putting in the effort gets me to 100% quality anyway - more like 85%. Not comparing myself to the PM, but maybe there's a similar process going on. I've got this week off work, and in theory I could be taking the time to really understand some complex issue. Instead, it's more fun just to chat here.
    Every person I know who knows him says he is lazy, dating back to his schooldays. He was then and he is now and I think we have all seen that these past few years.

    Of course he is also immensely gifted and I'm sure has no problem whatsoever knocking out (phnarr) 1,000 amusing words for a Spectator or DT audience which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel but that's not to say there's no market for it. It is absolutely "real work" - it's just that it is the type that he has a natural affinity for.
    I would challenge "immensely gifted". If Johnson was immensely gifted he would be better at his actual job of prime minister. He wouldn't have botched his Brexit deal (implicitly accepted by him). There would have been a less deadly and economically damaging COVID response. He would have some kind of action plan for the fuel/cost of living crisis. An immensely gifted prime minister might still be in post.
    Not really, he is immensely gifted as are Messi, Adele and Federer. Only Federer would make a legendary tennis player, only Adele as a singer, only Messi as a footballer, and only Boris as an entertaining election winner offering cakeism. None of them would make good prime ministers, despite being immensely gifted. Those who are particularly gifted do of course succeed more often than not in roles that suit their talents, but may be worse off than a hardworking Joe Average in other roles that are not suited to them as life has come too easy.
    Maybe. If Johnson was a footballer, singer or tennis player. But Johnson is prime minister and that's the context we're discussing him in and, frankly, he's not up to the job. I don't really mind his laziness but his issue is his incompetence.

    By contrast I will call out Joe Biden who has turned out to be a surprisingly effective president, despite being dismissed here as totally senile. He has been step perfect on the Ukraine response and steered the tricky Inflation Reduction Act through to legislation
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Do we really think he cares enough to fight for a comeback, or does he just want to make quick money by writing columns and doing talks at fancy dinners? I mean, a comeback sounds like hard work, and we know Johnson hates hard work.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns as an MP rather than get kicked out by the electorate, that he'll become the Tory King over the Water, and he'll just make money doing the kind of stuff all ex PMs do.

    I dunno where people get the idea “Boris hates hard work”

    In his time he’s been a successful foreign correspondent, editor of the Spectator, mayor of London, Brexit campaigner, Commons MP, Cabinet Minister, and Prime Minister

    He’s also been a novelist, columnist and TV presenter. And he doesn’t slack when it comes to the laydeez

    You can dodge tasks in life, to an extent, but you can’t do all that without some real graft

    Boris’ “problem” is that he is very bright so he can make all this seem bumblingly effortless: so that is what people perceive
    Well, I do know him a bit, and my impression is that he avoids hard work, because he's found that he can get by without it. If you have a fast mind (and he does) you can get maybe 70% of your tasks done in 20% of the time available, and if you're also charming and amusing (and he is), you can top that up to an apparent 110%.

    I empathise a bit - I have a quick mind too (minus the charisma), and it's quite seductive not to bother with the 100%, especially as I don't find that really putting in the effort gets me to 100% quality anyway - more like 85%. Not comparing myself to the PM, but maybe there's a similar process going on. I've got this week off work, and in theory I could be taking the time to really understand some complex issue. Instead, it's more fun just to chat here.
    Every person I know who knows him says he is lazy, dating back to his schooldays. He was then and he is now and I think we have all seen that these past few years.

    Of course he is also immensely gifted and I'm sure has no problem whatsoever knocking out (phnarr) 1,000 amusing words for a Spectator or DT audience which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel but that's not to say there's no market for it. It is absolutely "real work" - it's just that it is the type that he has a natural affinity for.
    I would challenge "immensely gifted". If Johnson was immensely gifted he would be better at his actual job of prime minister. He wouldn't have botched his Brexit deal (implicitly accepted by him). There would have been a less deadly and economically damaging COVID response. He would have some kind of action plan for the fuel/cost of living crisis. An immensely gifted prime minister might still be in post.
    Not really, he is immensely gifted as are Messi, Adele and Federer. Only Federer would make a legendary tennis player, only Adele as a singer, only Messi as a footballer, and only Boris as an entertaining election winner offering cakeism. None of them would make good prime ministers, despite being immensely gifted. Those who are particularly gifted do of course succeed more often than not in roles that suit their talents, but may be worse off than a hardworking Joe Average in other roles that are not suited to them as life has come too easy.
    Also, even if you set aside his work as PM or Minister, he was/is a truly successful newspaper columnist, Spectator editor, London mayor and Brexit referendum winner

    Those are such disparate achievements I think we can conclude that he is uniquely and perhaps immensely gifted. It's foolish to deny it. Indeed I am struggling to think of any other British politicians who have been similarly outstanding in several fields

    Starmer made it to QC and is now LOTO, which impresses; but he hasn't won any elections, or run anything serious, so I don't think he is up there with Boris - yet
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HMS PoW off to dry dock in Rosyth. WESTLANT 2022 in the bin. US 2nd Fleet, who moved their own training program around to accomodate her, not amused.

    Sort it out, Truss.

    Well known for her naval engineering skills ?

    I suppose the could just decide to scrap it. That would sort it out.
    Though it would leave us with a complement of overpriced and relatively underperforming F35s.
    Underperforming? The Israelis are using them to wander through the Iranian air defence without getting detected.
    The F35B, which we ordered because we couldn't afford catapults, is more expensive, shorter range and has a reduced payload compared to the other models.
    Not really because if you go for the big wing C model you're committing to the vast training expense of CATOBAR aviation. Multiple dedicated air wings would be required so operating the B is much cheaper than the C.

    If the ambition is to have one part time air wing then the B is the only possible choice. C never made any sense for the UK.
    You're right. But arguably you could say the same for the carriers.
    My comment was in the context of the carriers being a waste of money - and if we scrap them we're left with a handicapped airplane. Though possibly we could trade them in ?
  • On Boris. If you're a lying toad, I can't see that it matters much whether you're lazy or industrious, a genius or a plodder. You're still a lying toad.

    It makes a difference. I do not particularly like May's policies or approach but admired her for her hard work and dedication. That was enough that I could respect her without liking her. None of us are perfect, and it is normally easy enough to find something within other people that is worthy of respect. The things Boris are good at, and he is really good at some of them, are just not things I respect.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    It goes further back than that, there's a school report at Eton saying he is a conceited little shit who thinks he has a God given right to be made head boy, and 2 months later they make him head boy
  • On Boris. If you're a lying toad, I can't see that it matters much whether you're lazy or industrious, a genius or a plodder. You're still a lying toad.

    It makes a difference. I do not particularly like May's policies or approach but admired her for her hard work and dedication. That was enough that I could respect her without liking her. None of us are perfect, and it is normally easy enough to find something within other people that is worthy of respect. The things Boris are good at, and he is really good at some of them, are just not things I respect.
    I don't disagree, but I was referring specifically to the 'lying' element, which I wouldn't accuse May of.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    edited September 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    My big hope is that DeSantis loses tbh
    It's a bit of a long shot, but probably value at current odds.

    This comment from DeSantis's running mate a week or so back is getting a lot of play.

    Bipartisan group slams Florida lt. gov.’s suggestion to send Cuban migrants to Delaware
    https://thehill.com/latino/3611584-bipartisan-group-slams-florida-lt-gov-s-suggestion-to-send-cuban-migrants-to-delaware/
    ...Asked about Cuban migration at the U.S.-Mexico border by Agustín Acosta of “Cada Tarde,” Nuñez said “the place where they want to arrive is Florida, there’s no doubt about it.”
    Though Nuñez later recognized that states have no jurisdiction over immigration, she cautioned that the government of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) would not remain “with its arms crossed.”
    “He’s going to send them, very frankly, to the state of Delaware, the president’s state,” said Nuñez....


    Along these lines...
    https://twitter.com/AaronParnas/status/1564675503335870470
    Unlike Ron DeSantis' Lieutenant Governor, Jeanette Nunez, Charlie Crist's running mate, Karla Hernandez does not want to send Cuban migrants to Delaware.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    edited September 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Do we really think he cares enough to fight for a comeback, or does he just want to make quick money by writing columns and doing talks at fancy dinners? I mean, a comeback sounds like hard work, and we know Johnson hates hard work.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns as an MP rather than get kicked out by the electorate, that he'll become the Tory King over the Water, and he'll just make money doing the kind of stuff all ex PMs do.

    I dunno where people get the idea “Boris hates hard work”

    In his time he’s been a successful foreign correspondent, editor of the Spectator, mayor of London, Brexit campaigner, Commons MP, Cabinet Minister, and Prime Minister

    He’s also been a novelist, columnist and TV presenter. And he doesn’t slack when it comes to the laydeez

    You can dodge tasks in life, to an extent, but you can’t do all that without some real graft

    Boris’ “problem” is that he is very bright so he can make all this seem bumblingly effortless: so that is what people perceive
    Well, I do know him a bit, and my impression is that he avoids hard work, because he's found that he can get by without it. If you have a fast mind (and he does) you can get maybe 70% of your tasks done in 20% of the time available, and if you're also charming and amusing (and he is), you can top that up to an apparent 110%.

    I empathise a bit - I have a quick mind too (minus the charisma), and it's quite seductive not to bother with the 100%, especially as I don't find that really putting in the effort gets me to 100% quality anyway - more like 85%. Not comparing myself to the PM, but maybe there's a similar process going on. I've got this week off work, and in theory I could be taking the time to really understand some complex issue. Instead, it's more fun just to chat here.
    Every person I know who knows him says he is lazy, dating back to his schooldays. He was then and he is now and I think we have all seen that these past few years.

    Of course he is also immensely gifted and I'm sure has no problem whatsoever knocking out (phnarr) 1,000 amusing words for a Spectator or DT audience which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel but that's not to say there's no market for it. It is absolutely "real work" - it's just that it is the type that he has a natural affinity for.
    I would challenge "immensely gifted". If Johnson was immensely gifted he would be better at his actual job of prime minister. He wouldn't have botched his Brexit deal (implicitly accepted by him). There would have been a less deadly and economically damaging COVID response. He would have some kind of action plan for the fuel/cost of living crisis. An immensely gifted prime minister might still be in post.
    Not really, he is immensely gifted as are Messi, Adele and Federer. Only Federer would make a legendary tennis player, only Adele as a singer, only Messi as a footballer, and only Boris as an entertaining election winner offering cakeism. None of them would make good prime ministers, despite being immensely gifted. Those who are particularly gifted do of course succeed more often than not in roles that suit their talents, but may be worse off than a hardworking Joe Average in other roles that are not suited to them as life has come too easy.
    Also, even if you set aside his work as PM or Minister, he was/is a truly successful newspaper columnist, Spectator editor, London mayor and Brexit referendum winner

    Those are such disparate achievements I think we can conclude that he is uniquely and perhaps immensely gifted. It's foolish to deny it. Indeed I am struggling to think of any other British politicians who have been similarly outstanding in several fields

    Starmer made it to QC and is now LOTO, which impresses; but he hasn't won any elections, or run anything serious, so I don't think he is up there with Boris - yet
    DPP is equivalent to a cabinet job I would have thought, without knowing very much about it
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    With Boris's energy speech today, and Truss's recent pronouncements, it really does feel as if we're being gaslighted into believing that it's not the Conservatives, but some other party (Labour?), that's had the power to make decisions, both short-term and long-term, over the last 12 years.

    It's stunning chutzpah, but I'm not convinced it will work out as well for the Tories as it did in 2019.

    They are going about in a daze.

    Victoria Atkins yesterday spouting leftist platitudes as she got destroyed on the state of the police on radio.

    Even Mark Harper on TV this morning, one of the sharper and cleverer tory MPs looked in a world of sh*t mentally. A world of sh*t.
  • FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Do we really think he cares enough to fight for a comeback, or does he just want to make quick money by writing columns and doing talks at fancy dinners? I mean, a comeback sounds like hard work, and we know Johnson hates hard work.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns as an MP rather than get kicked out by the electorate, that he'll become the Tory King over the Water, and he'll just make money doing the kind of stuff all ex PMs do.

    I dunno where people get the idea “Boris hates hard work”

    In his time he’s been a successful foreign correspondent, editor of the Spectator, mayor of London, Brexit campaigner, Commons MP, Cabinet Minister, and Prime Minister

    He’s also been a novelist, columnist and TV presenter. And he doesn’t slack when it comes to the laydeez

    You can dodge tasks in life, to an extent, but you can’t do all that without some real graft

    Boris’ “problem” is that he is very bright so he can make all this seem bumblingly effortless: so that is what people perceive
    Well, I do know him a bit, and my impression is that he avoids hard work, because he's found that he can get by without it. If you have a fast mind (and he does) you can get maybe 70% of your tasks done in 20% of the time available, and if you're also charming and amusing (and he is), you can top that up to an apparent 110%.

    I empathise a bit - I have a quick mind too (minus the charisma), and it's quite seductive not to bother with the 100%, especially as I don't find that really putting in the effort gets me to 100% quality anyway - more like 85%. Not comparing myself to the PM, but maybe there's a similar process going on. I've got this week off work, and in theory I could be taking the time to really understand some complex issue. Instead, it's more fun just to chat here.
    Every person I know who knows him says he is lazy, dating back to his schooldays. He was then and he is now and I think we have all seen that these past few years.

    Of course he is also immensely gifted and I'm sure has no problem whatsoever knocking out (phnarr) 1,000 amusing words for a Spectator or DT audience which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel but that's not to say there's no market for it. It is absolutely "real work" - it's just that it is the type that he has a natural affinity for.
    I would challenge "immensely gifted". If Johnson was immensely gifted he would be better at his actual job of prime minister. He wouldn't have botched his Brexit deal (implicitly accepted by him). There would have been a less deadly and economically damaging COVID response. He would have some kind of action plan for the fuel/cost of living crisis. An immensely gifted prime minister might still be in post.
    Not really, he is immensely gifted as are Messi, Adele and Federer. Only Federer would make a legendary tennis player, only Adele as a singer, only Messi as a footballer, and only Boris as an entertaining election winner offering cakeism. None of them would make good prime ministers, despite being immensely gifted. Those who are particularly gifted do of course succeed more often than not in roles that suit their talents, but may be worse off than a hardworking Joe Average in other roles that are not suited to them as life has come too easy.
    Maybe. If Johnson was a footballer, singer or tennis player. But Johnson is prime minister and that's the context we're discussing him in and, frankly, he's not up to the job. I don't really mind his laziness but his issue is his incompetence.

    By contrast I will call out Joe Biden who has turned out to be a surprisingly effective president, despite being dismissed here as totally senile. He has been step perfect on the Ukraine response and steered the tricky Inflation Reduction Act through to legislation
    There are different parts to being prime minister. Boris is immensely gifted at one of the key parts - becoming prime minister. It was his lifes ambition and for most of the last 30 years he has been on track. When he had setbacks he came back strongly.

    He is shit at policy, because he doesn't believe in or care about any of them, beyond whether they can make him temporarily popular and liked. He is shit at managing cabinet because he is scared of rivals, or sees it as a game where beating rivals is more important than the good of the country.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 3,623

    With Boris's energy speech today, and Truss's recent pronouncements, it really does feel as if we're being gaslighted into believing that it's not the Conservatives, but some other party (Labour?), that's had the power to make decisions, both short-term and long-term, over the last 12 years.

    It's stunning chutzpah, but I'm not convinced it will work out as well for the Tories as it did in 2019.

    I wouldn’t discount it. The approach has indeed worked well for them in the past, notably when Boris managed to win in 2019 on the basis of not being May (though Corbyn helped too).

    The opposition parties need to bang hone over and over that this is a tired Tory party in its 13th year of government. Emphasise the continuity not only with Boris and last last regime but with all the least popular ministers of the last decade.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,847
    edited September 2022
    If neither the outgoing nor incoming PM attends by means of ekranoplan I'll be sorely disappointed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    ydoethur said:

    On Boris. If you're a lying toad, I can't see that it matters much whether you're lazy or industrious, a genius or a plodder. You're still a lying toad.

    What have you got against toads?
    Actually the technical term in his case is bufo mendax.
  • Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HMS PoW off to dry dock in Rosyth. WESTLANT 2022 in the bin. US 2nd Fleet, who moved their own training program around to accomodate her, not amused.

    Sort it out, Truss.

    Well known for her naval engineering skills ?

    I suppose the could just decide to scrap it. That would sort it out.
    Though it would leave us with a complement of overpriced and relatively underperforming F35s.
    Underperforming? The Israelis are using them to wander through the Iranian air defence without getting detected.
    The F35B, which we ordered because we couldn't afford catapults, is more expensive, shorter range and has a reduced payload compared to the other models.
    Not really because if you go for the big wing C model you're committing to the vast training expense of CATOBAR aviation. Multiple dedicated air wings would be required so operating the B is much cheaper than the C.

    If the ambition is to have one part time air wing then the B is the only possible choice. C never made any sense for the UK.
    You're right. But arguably you could say the same for the carriers.
    My comment was in the context of the carriers being a waste of money - and if we scrap them we're left with a handicapped airplane. Though possibly we could trade them in ?
    Aeroplane. And presumably if we managed to offload the carrier to someone, they would need the planes?

    If was in favour of giving it to the EU with much fanfare as a grand gesture - to get everything we wanted trade-wise. If we had done that when I suggested it, this would not be our problem.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Do we really think he cares enough to fight for a comeback, or does he just want to make quick money by writing columns and doing talks at fancy dinners? I mean, a comeback sounds like hard work, and we know Johnson hates hard work.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns as an MP rather than get kicked out by the electorate, that he'll become the Tory King over the Water, and he'll just make money doing the kind of stuff all ex PMs do.

    I dunno where people get the idea “Boris hates hard work”

    In his time he’s been a successful foreign correspondent, editor of the Spectator, mayor of London, Brexit campaigner, Commons MP, Cabinet Minister, and Prime Minister

    He’s also been a novelist, columnist and TV presenter. And he doesn’t slack when it comes to the laydeez

    You can dodge tasks in life, to an extent, but you can’t do all that without some real graft

    Boris’ “problem” is that he is very bright so he can make all this seem bumblingly effortless: so that is what people perceive
    Well, I do know him a bit, and my impression is that he avoids hard work, because he's found that he can get by without it. If you have a fast mind (and he does) you can get maybe 70% of your tasks done in 20% of the time available, and if you're also charming and amusing (and he is), you can top that up to an apparent 110%.

    I empathise a bit - I have a quick mind too (minus the charisma), and it's quite seductive not to bother with the 100%, especially as I don't find that really putting in the effort gets me to 100% quality anyway - more like 85%. Not comparing myself to the PM, but maybe there's a similar process going on. I've got this week off work, and in theory I could be taking the time to really understand some complex issue. Instead, it's more fun just to chat here.
    Every person I know who knows him says he is lazy, dating back to his schooldays. He was then and he is now and I think we have all seen that these past few years.

    Of course he is also immensely gifted and I'm sure has no problem whatsoever knocking out (phnarr) 1,000 amusing words for a Spectator or DT audience which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel but that's not to say there's no market for it. It is absolutely "real work" - it's just that it is the type that he has a natural affinity for.
    Re writing, it's much easier to knock off a general audience piece for a newspaper or magazine than it is to do a full scholarly paper. The former can be comment, it has far less detail to check, it is shorter, and so on. The latter has to be watertight and documented and all the bases and loopholes covered. It takes far, far longer to do. Indeed, they're so different that they almost need different brains - it's only the keyboard and screen that are in common. Being a Speccy columnist versus PM is like that. In the former, a CBA attitude is easy - you just pick a different topic or route. In the latter, it's fatal.

    That’s really not true. Otherwise all the people doing the hard, scholarly papers would be knocking out easy columns for £300,000 a year. They aren’t, because it is in fact difficult. Few have the skill. Those that do are therefore well rewarded

    One of these skills is concision. Making an interesting point in as few words as possible, while remaining memorable and vivid

    A lot of people who can technically “write” can’t do this, they write far too much and bore the reader
    They are different skills. Most academics can't write well, in the sense of making their subject matter gripping or comprehensible to the general reader, or even expressing themselves elegantly, but that doesn't matter as that's not the purpose of their writing. Being able to convey complex ideas to a general audience in a way that captures their imagination and leaves them better informed than they were before is very hard and few seem able to do it well. Being able to write memorable or amusing prose well is also difficult - certainly harder than purely academic writing but probably easier than conveying complex ideas in a readable way. Boris Johnson is highly skilled in this third field, although he is several rungs below PG Wodehouse, who seems to be who he is trying to emulate.
    There is no reason to think that being good at any of the three would make you good at running the country, but of the three I would expect skill in the second field to be the most advantageous, thinking of people like Thatcher or Blair.
    In my experience, academics often write worse prose than the average person on the Croydon tram. Prolix, obscure, full of jargon - it’s generally gibberish. There are rare and precious exceptions. Like Pinker or Scruton
    Most academics are very bad writers. I'm currently procrastinating because I should be reading and writing a second round referee report for an academic article that is boring and pedestrian beyond imagination. (I am not an academic, in part because I hate reading badly written stuff, but I have an academic training and it's useful to keep an oar in). But, most academic writing is not meant to be engaging or even penetrable for those outside of a narrow field, and being able to write well is neither necessary nor sufficient to succeed as an academic.
    I think the best writers manage to be both readable and substantive, and Johnson is much better at the first than the second. I think that explains some of his failings in office. But writing and governing are really very different fields, and there are way too many journalists trying to be politicians.
    I've been reliably informed that academe positively ENCOURAGES obscure jargon-ridden drivel in certain fields - anything to do with structuralism or post-modernism or the word Baudrillard - because the impenetrable prose is only comprehensible and therefore assessable by others in the elect. Like theologians writing in Latin

    It keeps it all pure, and unsoiled by the critique of plebs, who simply don't understand it

    A total racket
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    It goes further back than that, there's a school report at Eton saying he is a conceited little shit who thinks he has a God given right to be made head boy, and 2 months later they make him head boy
    "...a conceited little shit who thinks he has a God given right to be made head boy..."
    Wasn't that a sine qua non for the post ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Gas prices tumble
    Roe v Wade overturned

    Biden's ratings surge.

    Had Gas prices stayed high he would have struggled.
    Do you mean gas as in petrol? Or os the American price for gas as in gas a lot lower too?
    On the forecourts it has nudged below $4 per US gallon if you shop about, and radio stations report the latest prices daily.
    Petrol price out here dropped 15% today, where it’s revised monthly based on the local input price. It dropped 10% last month too, so the news is getting better.

    $5 ‘gas’ in the US was totemic, especially as it happened in July, just as everyone there was packing up for the summer road trip.
    Yes, but the expectation here seems to be that it has bottomed and the winter weather will see gas prices on the rise again?
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    Blimey, here's a blast from the past:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-62749310

    I didn't realise anyone even still used floppy disks!
  • IshmaelZ said:
    - ”Liz Truss is the first to have floated to the top…”

    How apposite, the year England became a Turd World Country.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    148grss said:

    Do we really think he cares enough to fight for a comeback, or does he just want to make quick money by writing columns and doing talks at fancy dinners? I mean, a comeback sounds like hard work, and we know Johnson hates hard work.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns as an MP rather than get kicked out by the electorate, that he'll become the Tory King over the Water, and he'll just make money doing the kind of stuff all ex PMs do.

    I dunno where people get the idea “Boris hates hard work”

    In his time he’s been a successful foreign correspondent, editor of the Spectator, mayor of London, Brexit campaigner, Commons MP, Cabinet Minister, and Prime Minister

    He’s also been a novelist, columnist and TV presenter. And he doesn’t slack when it comes to the laydeez

    You can dodge tasks in life, to an extent, but you can’t do all that without some real graft

    Boris’ “problem” is that he is very bright so he can make all this seem bumblingly effortless: so that is what people perceive
    Well, I do know him a bit, and my impression is that he avoids hard work, because he's found that he can get by without it. If you have a fast mind (and he does) you can get maybe 70% of your tasks done in 20% of the time available, and if you're also charming and amusing (and he is), you can top that up to an apparent 110%.

    I empathise a bit - I have a quick mind too (minus the charisma), and it's quite seductive not to bother with the 100%, especially as I don't find that really putting in the effort gets me to 100% quality anyway - more like 85%. Not comparing myself to the PM, but maybe there's a similar process going on. I've got this week off work, and in theory I could be taking the time to really understand some complex issue. Instead, it's more fun just to chat here.
    Every person I know who knows him says he is lazy, dating back to his schooldays. He was then and he is now and I think we have all seen that these past few years.

    Of course he is also immensely gifted and I'm sure has no problem whatsoever knocking out (phnarr) 1,000 amusing words for a Spectator or DT audience which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel but that's not to say there's no market for it. It is absolutely "real work" - it's just that it is the type that he has a natural affinity for.
    Re writing, it's much easier to knock off a general audience piece for a newspaper or magazine than it is to do a full scholarly paper. The former can be comment, it has far less detail to check, it is shorter, and so on. The latter has to be watertight and documented and all the bases and loopholes covered. It takes far, far longer to do. Indeed, they're so different that they almost need different brains - it's only the keyboard and screen that are in common. Being a Speccy columnist versus PM is like that. In the former, a CBA attitude is easy - you just pick a different topic or route. In the latter, it's fatal.

    That’s really not true. Otherwise all the people doing the hard, scholarly papers would be knocking out easy columns for £300,000 a year. They aren’t, because it is in fact difficult. Few have the skill. Those that do are therefore well rewarded

    One of these skills is concision. Making an interesting point in as few words as possible, while remaining memorable and vivid

    A lot of people who can technically “write” can’t do this, they write far too much and bore the reader
    They are different skills. Most academics can't write well, in the sense of making their subject matter gripping or comprehensible to the general reader, or even expressing themselves elegantly, but that doesn't matter as that's not the purpose of their writing. Being able to convey complex ideas to a general audience in a way that captures their imagination and leaves them better informed than they were before is very hard and few seem able to do it well. Being able to write memorable or amusing prose well is also difficult - certainly harder than purely academic writing but probably easier than conveying complex ideas in a readable way. Boris Johnson is highly skilled in this third field, although he is several rungs below PG Wodehouse, who seems to be who he is trying to emulate.
    There is no reason to think that being good at any of the three would make you good at running the country, but of the three I would expect skill in the second field to be the most advantageous, thinking of people like Thatcher or Blair.
    In my experience, academics often write worse prose than the average person on the Croydon tram. Prolix, obscure, full of jargon - it’s generally gibberish. There are rare and precious exceptions. Like Pinker or Scruton
    Most academics are very bad writers. I'm currently procrastinating because I should be reading and writing a second round referee report for an academic article that is boring and pedestrian beyond imagination. (I am not an academic, in part because I hate reading badly written stuff, but I have an academic training and it's useful to keep an oar in). But, most academic writing is not meant to be engaging or even penetrable for those outside of a narrow field, and being able to write well is neither necessary nor sufficient to succeed as an academic.
    I think the best writers manage to be both readable and substantive, and Johnson is much better at the first than the second. I think that explains some of his failings in office. But writing and governing are really very different fields, and there are way too many journalists trying to be politicians.
    I've been reliably informed that academe positively ENCOURAGES obscure jargon-ridden drivel in certain fields - anything to do with structuralism or post-modernism or the word Baudrillard - because the impenetrable prose is only comprehensible and therefore assessable by others in the elect. Like theologians writing in Latin

    It keeps it all pure, and unsoiled by the critique of plebs, who simply don't understand it

    A total racket
    Probably. Every sphere of professional life is a racket to some extent.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    edited September 2022

    IshmaelZ said:
    - ”Liz Truss is the first to have floated to the top…”

    How apposite, the year England became a Turd World Country.
    Scum floats to the top.

    THat's hardly unique to England, or indeed Britain. Look at Germany. Or more pertinently, the EU - Juncker then von der Leyen.
  • IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Gas prices tumble
    Roe v Wade overturned

    Biden's ratings surge.

    Had Gas prices stayed high he would have struggled.
    Do you mean gas as in petrol? Or os the American price for gas as in gas a lot lower too?
    On the forecourts it has nudged below $4 per US gallon if you shop about, and radio stations report the latest prices daily.
    Petrol price out here dropped 15% today, where it’s revised monthly based on the local input price. It dropped 10% last month too, so the news is getting better.

    $5 ‘gas’ in the US was totemic, especially as it happened in July, just as everyone there was packing up for the summer road trip.
    Yes, but the expectation here seems to be that it has bottomed and the winter weather will see gas prices on the rise again?
    Are you talking about the same thing? Sandpit is talking about petrol - in the US 'gas' - whereas you seem to be talking about natural gas. There is no reason for petrol ('gas') prices to rise in the US just because it is winter. Indeed there is currently a complete disconnect between oil and natural gas prices.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
  • MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:
    In that case, Truss is a symptom of a wider malaise. The Conservative Party have decided to please themselves, not the wider electorate.

    That rarely ends well.
    Under Johnson and Sunak the conservative party is making people poorer at the fastest rate in a century, we learned today.

    You are blaming Truss for wanting to veer away from their policies? LOL
    Yep. Utter pig-ignorant tone-deaf tin eardom.
    Not at all.

    There's just a lot more to reducing taxes than saying "I want to reduce taxes", which is where we are at the moment. Also, based on the plans she has announced so far her tax-cutting priorities are the richest ten percent.

    More importantly, it's not about what I want. It's about what the public in general want.

    Here are the polling data:
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_conleader_20220831.html

    Voters as a whole narrowly prefer Sunak to Truss.
    Conservative voters narrowly prefer Sunak to Truss.
    Conservative members appear to significantly prefer Truss to Sunak.

    That's up to them, of course. They pay their money, they make their choice. But the polling evidence is that Conservative members prefer Truss to Sunak and would have kept Johnson given a chance.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-members-still-prefer-johnson-to-truss-and-sunak-by-a-long-way-12672651

    That really is tone-deaf.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,019

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    Have you appended words to that effect to the paper you are reviewing.

    "Yes, you have grappled with the heteroskedasticity well enough but you are missing the collapse of Western society and all that we have hitherto held dear to us..."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    If Boris was paid to entertain, then they literally did shell out cash for lolz.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Gas prices tumble
    Roe v Wade overturned

    Biden's ratings surge.

    Had Gas prices stayed high he would have struggled.
    Do you mean gas as in petrol? Or os the American price for gas as in gas a lot lower too?
    On the forecourts it has nudged below $4 per US gallon if you shop about, and radio stations report the latest prices daily.
    Petrol price out here dropped 15% today, where it’s revised monthly based on the local input price. It dropped 10% last month too, so the news is getting better.

    $5 ‘gas’ in the US was totemic, especially as it happened in July, just as everyone there was packing up for the summer road trip.
    Yes, but the expectation here seems to be that it has bottomed and the winter weather will see gas prices on the rise again?
    Are you talking about the same thing? Sandpit is talking about petrol - in the US 'gas' - whereas you seem to be talking about natural gas. There is no reason for petrol ('gas') prices to rise in the US just because it is winter. Indeed there is currently a complete disconnect between oil and natural gas prices.
    I have no expertise other than listening to US radio, since I’m in the US, and sharing what I heard from some supposed expert. Concerning forecourt prices - the view seemed to be that the bottom isn’t far off and winter will push prices up again?
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    This comment barely stands up to scrutiny. If Trump was going out of fashion, the Dems wouldn't be trying so hard to take him out. They know that if they subtract Trump from the equation, his base do not turn up and they can win any election they like.

    See for reference Marc Molinaro, the nice cuddly candidate the Repubs ran in a Repub favourable New York special election recently.

    He's charismatic!! he's pro-choice! he distanced himself from Trump! and....er... he lost handily.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,942
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HMS PoW off to dry dock in Rosyth. WESTLANT 2022 in the bin. US 2nd Fleet, who moved their own training program around to accomodate her, not amused.

    Sort it out, Truss.

    Well known for her naval engineering skills ?

    I suppose the could just decide to scrap it. That would sort it out.
    Though it would leave us with a complement of overpriced and relatively underperforming F35s.
    Underperforming? The Israelis are using them to wander through the Iranian air defence without getting detected.
    The F35B, which we ordered because we couldn't afford catapults, is more expensive, shorter range and has a reduced payload compared to the other models.
    Not really because if you go for the big wing C model you're committing to the vast training expense of CATOBAR aviation. Multiple dedicated air wings would be required so operating the B is much cheaper than the C.

    If the ambition is to have one part time air wing then the B is the only possible choice. C never made any sense for the UK.
    I actually had a chance to talk with one of the naval architects for the carriers. The trade studies were apparently fascinating in their depth of history. They looked at literally every carrier design (both RN and abroad).

    He told me the following anecdote - one person in process wanted smaller carriers, so they would be cheaper and have three. The designer pointed out that they had proved, by reference to past efforts (round the world) that since the ships would be custom class, that smaller wasn’t much different in cost. Unless they were less than half the size.

    Mr 3 Carriers said this was nonsense. Mr Designer pointed out the results of attempting to get cheaper with smaller back to the Edwardian period… apparently it came down to “I want to believe”.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,230
    Perhaps Leon values the ability to be paid for entertaining yet scarcely credible fiction rather more highly than most.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    MISTY said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    This comment barely stands up to scrutiny. If Trump was going out of fashion, the Dems wouldn't be trying so hard to take him out. They know that if they subtract Trump from the equation, his base do not turn up and they can win any election they like.

    See for reference Marc Molinaro, the nice cuddly candidate the Repubs ran in a Repub favourable New York special election recently.

    He's charismatic!! he's pro-choice! he distanced himself from Trump! and....er... he lost handily.
    Since when did 'investigating a suspected criminal' become 'trying so hard to take him out?'
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    dixiedean said:

    Perhaps Leon values the ability to be paid for entertaining yet scarcely credible fiction rather more highly than most.

    But we don't pay him for the stuff he writes.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    Blimey, here's a blast from the past:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-62749310

    I didn't realise anyone even still used floppy disks!

    Nostalgia the other night when someone in an early 2000s movie had some top secret info on a zip drive on a SCSI chain.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603
    From Unherd:

    https://unherd.com/2022/09/why-the-tories-turned-on-rishi/

    TLDR: Sunak missed his chance back in early ‘22, and Truss has pulled the same stunt that Johnson did.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Blimey, here's a blast from the past:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-62749310

    I didn't realise anyone even still used floppy disks!

    Nostalgia the other night when someone in an early 2000s movie had some top secret info on a zip drive on a SCSI chain.
    I've still got one of those somewhere, but I don't think I've used it since 2012.
  • Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    If Boris was paid to entertain, then they literally did shell out cash for lolz.
    And had Boris stuck to that, perhaps coupled with being the new permanent host of Have I Got News For You, all would have been well. He might even have become a National Treasure. He would have had to still the inner voice calling him to his destiny, but hey ho.

    The mistake he made, we all made (I voted for him, I enjoyed the columns too) was to assume that an ability to produce vivid opinions was a qualification to run the country, when it's probably the exact opposite.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    ydoethur said:

    MISTY said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    This comment barely stands up to scrutiny. If Trump was going out of fashion, the Dems wouldn't be trying so hard to take him out. They know that if they subtract Trump from the equation, his base do not turn up and they can win any election they like.

    See for reference Marc Molinaro, the nice cuddly candidate the Repubs ran in a Repub favourable New York special election recently.

    He's charismatic!! he's pro-choice! he distanced himself from Trump! and....er... he lost handily.
    Since when did 'investigating a suspected criminal' become 'trying so hard to take him out?'
    I'm not talking about the investigation. The dems tried to impeach Trump twice before the investigation, every waking hour in the democrat media is an anti-Trump broadcast, he's banned from social media etc. etc. etc.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    MISTY said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    This comment barely stands up to scrutiny. If Trump was going out of fashion, the Dems wouldn't be trying so hard to take him out. They know that if they subtract Trump from the equation, his base do not turn up and they can win any election they like.

    See for reference Marc Molinaro, the nice cuddly candidate the Repubs ran in a Repub favourable New York special election recently.

    He's charismatic!! he's pro-choice! he distanced himself from Trump! and....er... he lost handily.
    This was over a month back, before the current documents scandal broke:

    Half of G.O.P. Voters Ready to Leave Trump Behind, Poll Finds
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/12/us/politics/trump-approval-polling-2024.html

    A year ago he was the almost certain presumptive nominee.

    And now the documents scandal, which even some of the MAGA crowd are finding awkward to defend.

    I'm not saying he's finished for certain, but it looks more likely than it ever did.
  • Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Gas prices tumble
    Roe v Wade overturned

    Biden's ratings surge.

    Had Gas prices stayed high he would have struggled.
    Do you mean gas as in petrol? Or os the American price for gas as in gas a lot lower too?
    Luckily for Biden with large scale US fracking and the house of Saud keeping their oppression to globally unloved Yemen the USA is getting both cheap gas and cheap gas.
    But isn't the wholesale price of gas just that? We're told that if the North Sea produces more, it'll just be the same price as the old (albeit reduced a tad in totality). Nobody is obliged to explain, I can dmor if necessary.
    The wholesale price of LNG *delivered to Europe*, is higher than the same LNG delivered to the USA, because of the cost and availability of transport. A lot of the US supply is local, whereas most of the European supply is coming from either the US or Qatar, and the transport ships are running at capacity and still can’t fulfil demand.
    Cheap energy is, I suppose, the real reason why the US economy tends to be so robust. We in the UK need to sort this.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,942
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Blimey, here's a blast from the past:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-62749310

    I didn't realise anyone even still used floppy disks!

    Nostalgia the other night when someone in an early 2000s movie had some top secret info on a zip drive on a SCSI chain.
    In one of the Die Hard films, the bad guys upload *all* the data in the US government to a single hard drive. Via USB.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Nigelb said:

    MISTY said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    This comment barely stands up to scrutiny. If Trump was going out of fashion, the Dems wouldn't be trying so hard to take him out. They know that if they subtract Trump from the equation, his base do not turn up and they can win any election they like.

    See for reference Marc Molinaro, the nice cuddly candidate the Repubs ran in a Repub favourable New York special election recently.

    He's charismatic!! he's pro-choice! he distanced himself from Trump! and....er... he lost handily.
    This was over a month back, before the current documents scandal broke:

    Half of G.O.P. Voters Ready to Leave Trump Behind, Poll Finds
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/12/us/politics/trump-approval-polling-2024.html

    A year ago he was the almost certain presumptive nominee.

    And now the documents scandal, which even some of the MAGA crowd are finding awkward to defend.

    I'm not saying he's finished for certain, but it looks more likely than it ever did.
    Personally I'm not sure that the New York Times, of all publications, knows which way the wind is blowing out there in the sticks in the flyover US states.

    But I could be wrong.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
  • Scott_xP said:
    In that case, Truss is a symptom of a wider malaise. The Conservative Party have decided to please themselves, not the wider electorate.

    That rarely ends well.
    If you're not going to please yourself when you win an election, when are you going to do so?

    The policies Truss wants to please the base with, are the policies in the manifesto that won the last election. Not putting up NI, etc
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    MISTY said:

    ydoethur said:

    MISTY said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    This comment barely stands up to scrutiny. If Trump was going out of fashion, the Dems wouldn't be trying so hard to take him out. They know that if they subtract Trump from the equation, his base do not turn up and they can win any election they like.

    See for reference Marc Molinaro, the nice cuddly candidate the Repubs ran in a Repub favourable New York special election recently.

    He's charismatic!! he's pro-choice! he distanced himself from Trump! and....er... he lost handily.
    Since when did 'investigating a suspected criminal' become 'trying so hard to take him out?'
    I'm not talking about the investigation. The dems tried to impeach Trump twice before the investigation, every waking hour in the democrat media is an anti-Trump broadcast, he's banned from social media etc. etc. etc.

    Impeachment is part of a criminal investigation, so that falls.

    He was banned from social media for inciting violence. As is normal. In fact, beforehand he got away with an awful lot of things that would have got an ordinary person banned because he was the President.

    It's very wrong of the media to report on the enormous number of criminal allegations against him, the inordinate number of policy failures, and the huge number of attempts at vote-rigging the Republicans not very successfully indulged in. How very dare they?

    Arguably, the Democrats have not been nearly ruthless enough in going after Trump.
  • On Boris. If you're a lying toad, I can't see that it matters much whether you're lazy or industrious, a genius or a plodder. You're still a lying toad.

    But when Starmer lied to get elected by saying he'd keep Corbyn's policies, then dumped them, then that was smart politics rather than being a lying toad?

    When is lying to get elected smart politics, and when is it being a lying toad?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,822
    edited September 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    HMS PoW off to dry dock in Rosyth. WESTLANT 2022 in the bin. US 2nd Fleet, who moved their own training program around to accomodate her, not amused.

    Sort it out, Truss.

    Perhaps she can get the shaft greasing sorted out at least.


  • “Recollections may vary”

    The South African composer who met the Duchess of Sussex at the Lion King premiere does not recall speaking to her about Nelson Mandela, the Telegraph has confirmed

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1565329358524272641
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    Putin won't be attending Gorby's funeral.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    Dura_Ace said:

    HMS PoW off to dry dock in Rosyth. WESTLANT 2022 in the bin. US 2nd Fleet, who moved their own training program around to accomodate her, not amused.

    Sort it out, Truss.

    I’m perhaps she can get the shaft greasing sorted out.


    She's got enough oil in her manner.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
    He's the first one to have become PM though. That does point to a relatively recent loss of seriousness in our society.
    £300k isn't that much money. Perhaps it's a lot in the newspaper business, I don't know.
  • Dynamo said:

    Putin won't be attending Gorby's funeral.

    Couldn't get a big enough table for the funeral.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
    He's the first one to have become PM though. That does point to a relatively recent loss of seriousness in our society.
    £300k isn't that much money. Perhaps it's a lot in the newspaper business, I don't know.
    He was one of the most highly paid columnists on Fleet Street. Vanishingly few earn more than £300k for one column a week. If nearly £6,000 a week for a few hours work isn't "that much money" to you, then I wish I was in your job
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 32,260
    MISTY said:

    Judging by the comments on here, the site is going very long of the Democrats ahead of November. Interesting.

    Biden's approval rating is still well underwater, even if the parties are tied on the generic ballot. The only occasions when the party in power has gained seats in the House, in mid term, 1998 and 2002, is when Clinton and Bush had very positive opinion ratings.

    Roe v Wade may make a difference, but it won't be that much of a difference.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    “Recollections may vary”

    The South African composer who met the Duchess of Sussex at the Lion King premiere does not recall speaking to her about Nelson Mandela, the Telegraph has confirmed

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1565329358524272641

    Talking of narcissists, Meghan Markle is absolutely a narcissist (way more than BJ). HAS to be the centre of attention. It will likely be her undoing
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,019

    Dynamo said:

    Putin won't be attending Gorby's funeral.

    Couldn't get a big enough table for the funeral.
    Voxpops from Russia and from some various high-ups in various Russian administrations universally critical of Gorbachev, interestingly.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
    He's the first one to have become PM though. That does point to a relatively recent loss of seriousness in our society.
    £300k isn't that much money. Perhaps it's a lot in the newspaper business, I don't know.
    £300,000 is chicken feed.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 2,782
    Pulpstar said:

    The Google streetmaps little man icon changes to a Queen if you go near Balmoral :D

    Got Tuesday off confirmed for my trip up Lochnagar. If I get caught, I'm going to say @TSE put me up to it.
  • Leon said:

    “Recollections may vary”

    The South African composer who met the Duchess of Sussex at the Lion King premiere does not recall speaking to her about Nelson Mandela, the Telegraph has confirmed

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1565329358524272641

    Talking of narcissists, Meghan Markle is absolutely a narcissist (way more than BJ). HAS to be the centre of attention. It will likely be her undoing
    I came across this the other day:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a1pjMbHGjG0
  • Rishi has a new 45-second video thanking supporters for "the fastest growing campaign in Europe" and urging them to get out and vote.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5tYShA09-g
  • MISTY said:

    ydoethur said:

    MISTY said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    This comment barely stands up to scrutiny. If Trump was going out of fashion, the Dems wouldn't be trying so hard to take him out. They know that if they subtract Trump from the equation, his base do not turn up and they can win any election they like.

    See for reference Marc Molinaro, the nice cuddly candidate the Repubs ran in a Repub favourable New York special election recently.

    He's charismatic!! he's pro-choice! he distanced himself from Trump! and....er... he lost handily.
    Since when did 'investigating a suspected criminal' become 'trying so hard to take him out?'
    I'm not talking about the investigation. The dems tried to impeach Trump twice before the investigation, every waking hour in the democrat media is an anti-Trump broadcast, he's banned from social media etc. etc. etc.

    If you were following the process you'd know that the Dems tried really hard not to impeach Trump, they knew that there wouldn't be enough Republicans to win that vote. But Trump behaved in such a criminal manner that they eventually had to try. He's a mafia boss in all but name.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    Sean_F said:

    MISTY said:

    Judging by the comments on here, the site is going very long of the Democrats ahead of November. Interesting.

    Biden's approval rating is still well underwater, even if the parties are tied on the generic ballot. The only occasions when the party in power has gained seats in the House, in mid term, 1998 and 2002, is when Clinton and Bush had very positive opinion ratings.

    Roe v Wade may make a difference, but it won't be that much of a difference.
    I still expect the GOP to gain the House but not with a 1994 or 2010 style landslide. The Democrats should hold the Senate now though
  • Leon said:

    “Recollections may vary”

    The South African composer who met the Duchess of Sussex at the Lion King premiere does not recall speaking to her about Nelson Mandela, the Telegraph has confirmed

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1565329358524272641

    Talking of narcissists, Meghan Markle is absolutely a narcissist (way more than BJ). HAS to be the centre of attention. It will likely be her undoing
    That's funny, the only people I ever see talking about Meghan are those who hate her.

    If you guys stopped bringing her up all the time, then I doubt her name would ever appear on this site.

    If she is a narcissist, then why do you insist on giving her what she wants and giving her attention?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,853
    TOPPING said:

    Dynamo said:

    Putin won't be attending Gorby's funeral.

    Couldn't get a big enough table for the funeral.
    Voxpops from Russia and from some various high-ups in various Russian administrations universally critical of Gorbachev, interestingly.
    Gorbachev killed Наша мечта
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
    He's the first one to have become PM though. That does point to a relatively recent loss of seriousness in our society.
    £300k isn't that much money. Perhaps it's a lot in the newspaper business, I don't know.
    £300,000 is chicken feed.
    I never knew money came in such small denominations
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    MISTY said:

    ydoethur said:

    MISTY said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    This comment barely stands up to scrutiny. If Trump was going out of fashion, the Dems wouldn't be trying so hard to take him out. They know that if they subtract Trump from the equation, his base do not turn up and they can win any election they like.

    See for reference Marc Molinaro, the nice cuddly candidate the Repubs ran in a Repub favourable New York special election recently.

    He's charismatic!! he's pro-choice! he distanced himself from Trump! and....er... he lost handily.
    Since when did 'investigating a suspected criminal' become 'trying so hard to take him out?'
    I'm not talking about the investigation. The dems tried to impeach Trump twice before the investigation, every waking hour in the democrat media is an anti-Trump broadcast, he's banned from social media etc. etc. etc.

    If you were following the process you'd know that the Dems tried really hard not to impeach Trump, they knew that there wouldn't be enough Republicans to win that vote. But Trump behaved in such a criminal manner that they eventually had to try. He's a mafia boss in all but name.
    I wouldn’t call him that.

    At least, not unless you’re sure no mafia bosses are listening.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,603
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
    He's the first one to have become PM though. That does point to a relatively recent loss of seriousness in our society.
    £300k isn't that much money. Perhaps it's a lot in the newspaper business, I don't know.
    He was one of the most highly paid columnists on Fleet Street. Vanishingly few earn more than £300k for one column a week. If nearly £6,000 a week for a few hours work isn't "that much money" to you, then I wish I was in your job
    Money doesn’t correlate very well with talent; that’s hardly a contentious point.

    And there is a world of difference between being able to rush off a pointed article for some column at the last minute, and being able to apply yourself to the myriad of political, geopolitical, strategic, administrative and people management issues involved with running the country.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
    He's the first one to have become PM though. That does point to a relatively recent loss of seriousness in our society.
    £300k isn't that much money. Perhaps it's a lot in the newspaper business, I don't know.
    £300,000 is chicken feed.
    I never knew money came in such small denominations
    Just a little peck.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    “Recollections may vary”

    The South African composer who met the Duchess of Sussex at the Lion King premiere does not recall speaking to her about Nelson Mandela, the Telegraph has confirmed

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1565329358524272641

    Talking of narcissists, Meghan Markle is absolutely a narcissist (way more than BJ). HAS to be the centre of attention. It will likely be her undoing
    That's funny, the only people I ever see talking about Meghan are those who hate her.

    If you guys stopped bringing her up all the time, then I doubt her name would ever appear on this site.

    If she is a narcissist, then why do you insist on giving her what she wants and giving her attention?
    lol. What?

    I have near-zero interest in Meghan Markle, and this might be the first time I have mentioned her in a year

    It's simply an obvious association to make, as we were discussing narcissism and Boris, and her name came up tangentially. She is, I am pretty sure, a classic narcissist, as has been noted by some of her family members and ex friends

    FWIW I also think she probably means well, she's an OK actress, she is extremely beautiful, and it is a shame that the Royal Family have "lost" her, as she is good box office

    And that is the end of my Meghan commentary
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Sean_F said:

    MISTY said:

    Judging by the comments on here, the site is going very long of the Democrats ahead of November. Interesting.

    Biden's approval rating is still well underwater, even if the parties are tied on the generic ballot. The only occasions when the party in power has gained seats in the House, in mid term, 1998 and 2002, is when Clinton and Bush had very positive opinion ratings.

    Roe v Wade may make a difference, but it won't be that much of a difference.
    Yes.

    Its just I remember a similar sort of enthusiasm on here in the run up to 2020, with the dems tipped to sweep Ohio, Iowa, Florida, NC, Texas etc, and mulling potential money making opportunities!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    “Recollections may vary”

    The South African composer who met the Duchess of Sussex at the Lion King premiere does not recall speaking to her about Nelson Mandela, the Telegraph has confirmed

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1565329358524272641

    That really is deeply, deeply funny

    FOR BALANCE for racist misogyny spotters: Andrew is a fat white paedophile who looks like a dyspeptic whale.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
    He's the first one to have become PM though. That does point to a relatively recent loss of seriousness in our society.
    £300k isn't that much money. Perhaps it's a lot in the newspaper business, I don't know.
    £300,000 is chicken feed.
    It's a huge amount of money by most standards. But the newspaper business must not be hugely profitable if that's the salary of its absolute stars, when sectors like tech, finance or consulting are chock full of quite average people earning well north of that. Perhaps they are less fun and offer fewer side benefits.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,942
    IshmaelZ said:

    “Recollections may vary”

    The South African composer who met the Duchess of Sussex at the Lion King premiere does not recall speaking to her about Nelson Mandela, the Telegraph has confirmed

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1565329358524272641

    That really is deeply, deeply funny

    FOR BALANCE for racist misogyny spotters: Andrew is a fat white paedophile who looks like a dyspeptic whale.
    That’s a disgraceful comment.

    Dyspeptic whales deserve our sympathy and help. Unlike Andrew.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 220
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    My big hope is that DeSantis loses tbh
    It's a bit of a long shot, but probably value at current odds.

    This comment from DeSantis's running mate a week or so back is getting a lot of play.

    Bipartisan group slams Florida lt. gov.’s suggestion to send Cuban migrants to Delaware
    https://thehill.com/latino/3611584-bipartisan-group-slams-florida-lt-gov-s-suggestion-to-send-cuban-migrants-to-delaware/
    ...Asked about Cuban migration at the U.S.-Mexico border by Agustín Acosta of “Cada Tarde,” Nuñez said “the place where they want to arrive is Florida, there’s no doubt about it.”
    Though Nuñez later recognized that states have no jurisdiction over immigration, she cautioned that the government of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) would not remain “with its arms crossed.”
    “He’s going to send them, very frankly, to the state of Delaware, the president’s state,” said Nuñez....


    Along these lines...
    https://twitter.com/AaronParnas/status/1564675503335870470
    Unlike Ron DeSantis' Lieutenant Governor, Jeanette Nunez, Charlie Crist's running mate, Karla Hernandez does not want to send Cuban migrants to Delaware.
    And there was me thinking that the reason Cubans ended up in Florida was that it's 100 miles from Havana to Key West rather than the 1,100 miles to Delaware. Silly me.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    edited September 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
    He's the first one to have become PM though. That does point to a relatively recent loss of seriousness in our society.
    £300k isn't that much money. Perhaps it's a lot in the newspaper business, I don't know.
    £300,000 is chicken feed.
    It's a huge amount of money by most standards. But the newspaper business must not be hugely profitable if that's the salary of its absolute stars, when sectors like tech, finance or consulting are chock full of quite average people earning well north of that. Perhaps they are less fun and offer fewer side benefits.
    The newspaper business is less well paid than some people think

    Some absolute star columnists - even bigger than Boris - might be on half a mill. I've heard rumours that Caitlin Moran is on that kind of money at The Times

    Only editors will make more than that, and even then only a few. Kath Viner, the editor at the Guardian, makes £508k a year


    And yes of course people do this not just for the money: it is a much more entertaining life than being a banker or coder. You get loads of perks, from party invites to Downing St dinners to endless free luxe travel
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    “Recollections may vary”

    The South African composer who met the Duchess of Sussex at the Lion King premiere does not recall speaking to her about Nelson Mandela, the Telegraph has confirmed

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1565329358524272641

    Talking of narcissists, Meghan Markle is absolutely a narcissist (way more than BJ). HAS to be the centre of attention. It will likely be her undoing
    That's funny, the only people I ever see talking about Meghan are those who hate her.

    If you guys stopped bringing her up all the time, then I doubt her name would ever appear on this site.

    If she is a narcissist, then why do you insist on giving her what she wants and giving her attention?
    Well excuse us, there was me thinking a 100/1 shot for WH2024 was an acceptable topic on a political betting website.

    I don't hate her any more than I hate Richard Burgon, I find her incredibly funny. That Telegraph story is well worth a read.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
    He's the first one to have become PM though. That does point to a relatively recent loss of seriousness in our society.
    £300k isn't that much money. Perhaps it's a lot in the newspaper business, I don't know.
    He was one of the most highly paid columnists on Fleet Street. Vanishingly few earn more than £300k for one column a week. If nearly £6,000 a week for a few hours work isn't "that much money" to you, then I wish I was in your job
    Money doesn’t correlate very well with talent; that’s hardly a contentious point.

    And there is a world of difference between being able to rush off a pointed article for some column at the last minute, and being able to apply yourself to the myriad of political, geopolitical, strategic, administrative and people management issues involved with running the country.
    You should charge for these GENIUS insights, by writing them in a newspaper column. You could get literally dozens of readers
  • Me likey. The untidy red deletion of the c-bomb is my work. Don’t want the ban hammer.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,019
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It would appear that using the word lazy to describe BoZo is in fact, lazy.

    I think it's more akin to ADHD. He is clearly willing to put some hours in, but only on things he wants to do to avoid things he should be doing.

    As Leon noted he used to write articles, which I am sure he would argue is not easy.

    But they were frequently late, and entirely made up.

    The question therefore is whether it is easier to write a fictional article (perhaps many times) than to do the research and write an accurate one.

    BoZo chose the former path. Some would call that lazy...

    My problem isn't with Johnson but with the system that indulged him. Why didn't the Telegraph think its readers deserved to read well researched, accurate articles? Why didn't the Telegraph's readers demand them? That is where the real laziness lies. That is evidence of a decadent society in decline.
    He's a columnist, and has been for many years. These are opinions, not factual investigations

    If you mean his European work for the Telegraph that was decades ago, so our decline has been in train since about 1990? Also, he didn't persistently lie, he often told the truth, which annoyed europhiles. And when he did lie - as a very young hack - he got the sack from the Times

    Again, I do not see this as evidence for a 40 year moral decline
    He persistently lied and made up stories when he was Brussels correspondent - read the Purnell biography which is based on first hand evidence for that period for examples.
    Even a columnist should base their writings on evidence not simply bluster. Compare a Johnson article with one by, eg, Martin Wolf (other than on Brexit probably not a million miles from Johnson ideologically speaking). It's not serious writing and it's not designed for people who want to understand a complex world, but would rather retreat into their own ideological comfort zone. (There are plenty of writers like this on the Left too, and they can be even worse - at least Johnson can be funny).
    You don't understand what a columnist like Boris is employed to do. That's obvious by your silly comparison with Martin Wolf.

    Wolf writes quite serious, often quite dull articles about economics, they tend to be filled with facts because they have to be, he's not funny or poetic nor is he attempting this. Boris was in the Telegraph to entertain and amuse and attract readers with vivid opinions about all kinds of things

    Boris must have done it well because he earned £300k a year. The Telegraph does not shell out that kind of cash for lolz
    I understand fully that there is demand for the kind of stuff Johnson writes. My contention is that this is a sad reflection on the people who read it, who can't differentiate between a joke and an argument and treat Johnson's views like they should be taken seriously.
    There is of course a place for genuine comic writing, but if you hold up Johnson's pieces against those of writers who excel in this field, they just aren't that good. Even being funny takes more effort than Johnson was willing to put in.
    I agree with some of this. Johnson is a pretty good writer, but not outstanding - tho he does have flashes of brilliance

    However this isn't really my point. The Telegraph - like any big paper - has finely tuned antennae enabling them to sense what writers are popular, and attract readers. This is easily done in the age of the internet. Page views etc

    This is why papers poach star writers, because one popular writer can attract 50,000 readers, so they will justify the money paid to them. This is why the Telegraph gave Bozza £300k a year. Popularity

    You can bemoan the fact that Boris is a popular journalist as some dread sign of moral collapse but I submit that's absurd. Newspapers have been employing colourful, popular columnists for 100 years
    He's the first one to have become PM though. That does point to a relatively recent loss of seriousness in our society.
    £300k isn't that much money. Perhaps it's a lot in the newspaper business, I don't know.
    £300,000 is chicken feed.
    It's a huge amount of money by most standards. But the newspaper business must not be hugely profitable if that's the salary of its absolute stars, when sectors like tech, finance or consulting are chock full of quite average people earning well north of that. Perhaps they are less fun and offer fewer side benefits.
    The newspaper business is less well paid than some people think

    Some absolute star columnists - even bigger than Boris - might be on half a mill. I've heard rumours that Caitlin Moran is on that kind of money at The Times

    Only editors will make more than that, and even then only a few. Kath Viner, the editor at the Guardian, makes £508k a year


    And yes of course people do this not just for the money: it is a much more entertaining life than being a banker or coder. You get loads of perks, from party invites to Downing St dinners to endless free luxe travel
    Matt famously makes around £650k.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,853
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    “Recollections may vary”

    The South African composer who met the Duchess of Sussex at the Lion King premiere does not recall speaking to her about Nelson Mandela, the Telegraph has confirmed

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1565329358524272641

    Talking of narcissists, Meghan Markle is absolutely a narcissist (way more than BJ). HAS to be the centre of attention. It will likely be her undoing
    That's funny, the only people I ever see talking about Meghan are those who hate her.

    If you guys stopped bringing her up all the time, then I doubt her name would ever appear on this site.

    If she is a narcissist, then why do you insist on giving her what she wants and giving her attention?
    Well excuse us, there was me thinking a 100/1 shot for WH2024 was an acceptable topic on a political betting website.

    I don't hate her any more than I hate Richard Burgon, I find her incredibly funny. That Telegraph story is well worth a read.
    If only she was 100-1. Trying for 200-1 feels optimistic with her tbh.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,042
    edited September 2022
    MISTY said:

    Nigelb said:

    MISTY said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Why are we devoting an entire thread to discussing a soon to be ex PM who got booted from office for being a lying toad ?
    I'd rather bring back @Leon 's bloody pictures.

    Off for lunch, but here's a parting gift.

    Biden's Approval Rating Surges After Hitting Low Mark In July,
    Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds;
    Half Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Criminal
    Charges Over His Handling Of Classified Documents
    https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3854
    ...More than three-quarters of Americans (76 percent) say they are following the news about the removal of classified documents from former President Donald Trump's Florida home either very closely (38 percent) or somewhat closely (38 percent), while 24 percent say they are either following it not so closely (11 percent) or not closely at all (13 percent).

    Americans 59 - 26 percent think former President Trump acted inappropriately...


    Lay the "great greased watermelon" for the Republican nomination.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/facts-caught-donald-trump-documents.html

    Disagree, about 35 million will partake in the GOP primary. The venn diagram for those primary voters will be a circle wholly contained within the 26% identified in the poll.
    Well, that's what makes a market.

    My impression, FWIW, is that while MAGA hasn't gone out of fashion on the right, Trump is rather less fashionable with MAGA. Remarkably, given all that's gone before without apparent consequence, he's now become something of an embarrassment.
    This comment barely stands up to scrutiny. If Trump was going out of fashion, the Dems wouldn't be trying so hard to take him out. They know that if they subtract Trump from the equation, his base do not turn up and they can win any election they like.

    See for reference Marc Molinaro, the nice cuddly candidate the Repubs ran in a Repub favourable New York special election recently.

    He's charismatic!! he's pro-choice! he distanced himself from Trump! and....er... he lost handily.
    This was over a month back, before the current documents scandal broke:

    Half of G.O.P. Voters Ready to Leave Trump Behind, Poll Finds
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/12/us/politics/trump-approval-polling-2024.html

    A year ago he was the almost certain presumptive nominee.

    And now the documents scandal, which even some of the MAGA crowd are finding awkward to defend.

    I'm not saying he's finished for certain, but it looks more likely than it ever did.
    Personally I'm not sure that the New York Times, of all publications, knows which way the wind is blowing out there in the sticks in the flyover US states.

    But I could be wrong.

    It's a poll.

    And from one of the highest rated pollsters.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/

    Personally, I'd take their numbers over your gut feel.
This discussion has been closed.