Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Whilst CON MPs don’t decide who leads they can sack the winner – politicalbetting.com

1235710

Comments

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    Techne also find a 2% swing. Note the fieldwork is acually 24 and 25 August, comfirmed on their website

    In our regular Westminster voting intention tracker, Labour's lead has doubled to eight points in two weeks:

    Lab 41% (+2)
    Con 33% (-2)
    LibDem 11% (-1)
    Green 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (nc)

    1,641 questioned on 17-18 August (error, is 24 to 25 Aug). Changes with 10-11 August.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,886
    Looks like Boris was ejected just in time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    AlistairM said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Unfortunately your are in a small minority of people who remember that sort of thing. We have become quite soft. We may need to prioritise who gets support - elderly and those with babies first. Those between 15 and 50 may need to start getting dressed in bed again!
    Again this emphasis on the elderly. Why? Fuck the elderly. And I say that as someone with very old parents and who is not exactly young

    Let the over 80s freeze in the streets. Who cares. Let the over 50s fend for themselves

    Concentrate on saving the economy so that the young have a future. Also: fuck the Dinghy
    Albanians. This is not a time to be importing 60,000 gangsters a year who all want a warm house for free
  • Leon said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    But Truss has announced detailed plans- the ones she has re-announced in the Mail today. They're just hopelessly, laughably inadequate plans that benefit the richest most.

    Just because she hasn't pulled the rabbit out of her hat yet doesn't mean that there's a rabbit incoming. It's possible, likely even, that right now there is no rabbit.

    (She will have to do something eventually. But she is going out of her way to deny it.)
    She wants a poll boost at the optimum time: as she takes office

    I agree with you that she will have to do SOMETHING. Once you sit down and extrapolate what this all means, it is pretty scary. A cascade effect of demand destruction: as businesses close (temporarily, then for good), workers stay home (knackering town centres again), so more businesses close…

    We could see a Covid style 5-10% drop in GDP across Europe - and elsewhere

    And this time there won’t be a rapid bounce back with a vaccine

    So governments that are able to do so, will borrow money to help citizens and firms. Debt will surge again. What else can they do in the short term?
    How about what they can do in the very immediate term?

    Today's news isn't a shock. We knew it was coming. Consumers and businesses have already seen the flames rising at their feet. And now the economy is officially on fire yet the government say literally nothing this morning and the presumed incoming government just restates its plan which isn't a plan to actually resolve this.

    It isn't just the event itself that does the damage. Its the fear and anticipation of the event changing behaviours. We are a long way along the damage path even though the new bills haven't been imposed yet.

    Trusster needed to say "I will intervene significantly if I become PM. I will not allow these bills to land in your letter box". She did not.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644

    Telegraph reporting that Crudas has 8,700 signatures for his Bring Back Boris petition.

    10K could see a constitutional crisis.

    Why? The Conservative Party has a membership of around 160k. 10k looks pretty poor.
    I don't understand the complexities but iirc 10k is enough to trigger some kind of special conference of activists that can change the rulebook and reinstate Johnson.

    He wouldn't be able to command the House so it is all a waste of time but could cause another dive in tory polling if it goes ahead.
    Triggering a special conference is one thing. Getting that special conference to change the rules and then acting under those new rules to get Johnson back is another thing. If 10k have signed the petition and 150k haven't... well, it's not exactly evidence that the Conservative Party is going to go for any such scheme.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    I resemble this remark.
  • The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    You've forgotten the puns. There will be puns.

    If the Sun goes out, I predict the humour will be very dark.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,700

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Southern softies - we just got out of bed and on with the pullovers.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 913
    kyf_100 said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    Your second suggestion is a bit extreme methinks.

    My father - who is as liberal as anyone I know - has just sent me the reform party energy plan with a comment that government had better come up with something soon or voters could shift support very quickly.
    Interesting reading.

    If there's one thing I find absolutely indisputable in that, it's that this is a "force majeure situation... warlike situation requires wartime response - energy market no longer fit for purpose".

    I don't think you need to be a reform party supporter to agree with that. All the main parties are looking at free market, peacetime solutions at the moment, completely unaware that the world has moved on and we are in a war - albeit a proxy war - with Russia. That requires a wartime response to ensure that energy supplies are protected, are triaged and given to those who need it the most, defending the economy and the most vulnerable from what is, essentially, a Russian attack.

    This is not something the market is going to fix, this is a national security issue.
    We are a net importer of all types of energy. If the entire fossil fuel production of the UK is diverted for domestic consumption aren't the countries we import from going to shaft us in return?

    Prisoners dilemma and all
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    The lights are going on across Europe.
    Just listened on BBC to a report from Germany that says the way their energy works there is a delay in rising prices but it will be as bad as the UK and even a 200% increase is possible

    He also said Germany was not in favour of windfall taxes
    The estimate for the 18 months Oct 21 to Apr 23 in the UK is for a c.500% increase.
    It was clear the commentator was drawing an equivalence between UK and Germany and it is a Europe wide crisis nobody has seen since WW2

    Unless Truss (or Starmer) can find 100 billion over the next 12 months then the country will cease to function as we know it

    Starmer's 29 billion does not touch the sides of this crisis
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    I do not know or particularly understand Truss but her theme is consistent in saying she has not won the leadership

    I would also comment that if Truss does not come up with a huge relief package her premiership will be over before it starts
    On that we agree.
    But it wouldn't do much for the governance of the country.
    Yes.

    The best plan I have seen so far is the one using government backed loans to, effectively, reduce the price of imported gas.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188

    Leon said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    But Truss has announced detailed plans- the ones she has re-announced in the Mail today. They're just hopelessly, laughably inadequate plans that benefit the richest most.

    Just because she hasn't pulled the rabbit out of her hat yet doesn't mean that there's a rabbit incoming. It's possible, likely even, that right now there is no rabbit.

    (She will have to do something eventually. But she is going out of her way to deny it.)
    She wants a poll boost at the optimum time: as she takes office

    I agree with you that she will have to do SOMETHING. Once you sit down and extrapolate what this all means, it is pretty scary. A cascade effect of demand destruction: as businesses close (temporarily, then for good), workers stay home (knackering town centres again), so more businesses close…

    We could see a Covid style 5-10% drop in GDP across Europe - and elsewhere

    And this time there won’t be a rapid bounce back with a vaccine

    So governments that are able to do so, will borrow money to help citizens and firms. Debt will surge again. What else can they do in the short term?
    How about what they can do in the very immediate term?

    Today's news isn't a shock. We knew it was coming. Consumers and businesses have already seen the flames rising at their feet. And now the economy is officially on fire yet the government say literally nothing this morning and the presumed incoming government just restates its plan which isn't a plan to actually resolve this.

    It isn't just the event itself that does the damage. Its the fear and anticipation of the event changing behaviours. We are a long way along the damage path even though the new bills haven't been imposed yet.

    Trusster needed to say "I will intervene significantly if I become PM. I will not allow these bills to land in your letter box". She did not.
    Fortunately the Royal Mail is on strike. An advantage of not having a direct debit.
    Problem solved!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644
    I've just had an email from my energy supplier talking about when prices will go up, schemes for support, yadda yadda. It's notable how they summarise forthcoming events. I quote:

    26 August: Ofgem’s new price cap announcement
    1 September: We’ll announce details of OVO’s Customer Support Package for customers struggling to pay their bills
    5 September: New Prime Minister announced
    First 2 weeks of September: We’ll write to you about what the price cap will mean for your energy prices
    1 October: If you don’t have a smart meter, you can send us a meter reading online right up until 1 October. This will bring your energy account up to date before your prices change
    1 October: New price cap comes into effect
    October 2022 - March 2023: You’ll receive monthly payments under the Government's Energy Bills Support Scheme.

    Note the 5 September line. Many people don't pay much attention to political news, but the energy companies will do everything they can to point people to the Government as the solution.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232

    Probably not the results GBNews was hoping for from its first foray into polling:

    Westminster VI:
    🌹LAB: 40%
    🌳CON: 26%
    🔶LDM: 11%

    Best PM:
    🌹Starmer: 41%
    🌳Truss: 22%

    🌹Starmer: 40%
    🌳Sunak: 23%

    https://www.gbnews.uk/news/brits-want-keir-starmer-to-become-prime-minister-over-both-liz-truss-and-rishi-sunak-gb-news-peoples-poll-finds/357586

    I was amused by the following at the end of that GB news report:

    When asked to give one word they associated with Liz Truss, Brits' top answer was "untrustworthy".
    Unfortunately for Ms Truss, second most popular answer was "useless", with the even less flattering "idiot" in third.


    So, the Tories are about to elect an untrustworthy, useless idiot.
    I think some apologies are due to the Tory party. I may have suggested that their descent into bluekip had stopped them preserving the great traditions of the country in favour of reckless and incoherent change. However by electing another untrustworthy, useless idiot as leader the party has shown that there are still some traditions that they plan to continue. My apologies.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,902

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    I already outlined the OLB plan below. We need to introduce three levels of pricing - an affordable rate for consumption up to some minimal level (eg median household usage minus 15%) so that nobody freezes; the marginal rate at current prices for
    subsequent consumption up to some higher level (eg median household usage plus 50%) and a penal level beyond that. Revenue from that penal rate used to pay for a bit of the subsidy on the first tranche, the rest funded via a temporary income tax hike, a windfall tax on energy firms and higher borrowing. Something similar but less generous for firms based on historical usage and a furlough scheme for energy intensive firms over the winter.
    As I have noted previously, we are at war and we need to reflect that in abandoning purely market driven approaches to this crisis, if we want to win the war. We only won ww2 because of rationing.
  • Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    I do not know or particularly understand Truss but her theme is consistent in saying she has not won the leadership

    I would also comment that if Truss does not come up with a huge relief package her premiership will be over before it starts
    Your latter sentence being the point I and others are making.
    It is not the first time I have made that observation
  • The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    Can I applaud your username and picture? But mourn the lost opportunity for @SeanT. Think about it. He could have had a succession of pseudonyms - Tinky Winky, Dipsy, La La, and Po. So that when one gets banned the next gets stepped up. Once he gets to the sun baby then the Noo-Noo we know he's gone a long way down the ban hammer hole.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,886
    Leon said:

    AlistairM said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Unfortunately your are in a small minority of people who remember that sort of thing. We have become quite soft. We may need to prioritise who gets support - elderly and those with babies first. Those between 15 and 50 may need to start getting dressed in bed again!
    Again this emphasis on the elderly. Why? Fuck the elderly. And I say that as someone with very old parents and who is not exactly young

    Let the over 80s freeze in the streets. Who cares. Let the over 50s fend for themselves

    Concentrate on saving the economy so that the young have a future. Also: fuck the Dinghy
    Albanians. This is not a time to be importing 60,000 gangsters a year who all want a warm house for free
    "Fuck the elderly'. If only…

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,442

    The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    What do you say to allegations you are hurting R kids?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/276677.stm

    (I have always felt a soupçon of bisexuality missing from the Leon experience - even if just invented to add interest)
  • Thought suggestion:

    How many people would prefer no increase in energy bills if the cost was a reduction in house values of £10k per property ?

    Or a 5% fall in house values to allow for regional differences.

    Because housing wealth is the great untapped source of money.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853
    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
  • Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    I do not know or particularly understand Truss but her theme is consistent in saying she has not won the leadership

    I would also comment that if Truss does not come up with a huge relief package her premiership will be over before it starts
    Your latter sentence being the point I and others are making.
    It is not the first time I have made that observation
    I know. Its just that you maintain this hope against hope that she isn't an uncaring monster despite all the evidence - this morning's Mail piece included - that she is.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    @francis_scarr
    Occasionally even I am shocked by what I see on Russian state TV

    Last night Vladimir Solovyov accused Olaf Scholz of imitating "his idol" Adolf Hitler and called for missile strikes on the German military facility where Ukrainian soldiers are being trained to use Gepard tanks


    https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1563094037728337920

    It is the detachment of the statements to any kind of reality which is interesting.

    There are people who you could say idolised AH. Olaf Scholz is one the least idolising-AH people you could think of.

    It is like saying Angela Rayner is a Pol Pot fanatic.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853
    Leon said:

    AlistairM said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Unfortunately your are in a small minority of people who remember that sort of thing. We have become quite soft. We may need to prioritise who gets support - elderly and those with babies first. Those between 15 and 50 may need to start getting dressed in bed again!
    Again this emphasis on the elderly. Why? Fuck the elderly. And I say that as someone with very old parents and who is not exactly young

    Let the over 80s freeze in the streets. Who cares. Let the over 50s fend for themselves

    Concentrate on saving the economy so that the young have a future. Also: fuck the Dinghy
    Albanians. This is not a time to be importing 60,000 gangsters a year who all want a warm house for free
    PB is an odd place to be pitching for that Mail job.
  • Martin Lewis on James O'Brien. Started saying he is begging and pleading for anyone in government to act as he is "impotent". Now almost ranting describing factually how consumer numbers add up to them not being able to pay their bills.

    Ending with "it will be dark and cold".
  • .

    I don't understand why Truss can't say "this is what I would do on mitigating energy prices if I were elected Conservative leader and became PM". Sunak has done it, Starmer has done it. The only reason not to do it is because she does not yet know. Given how far in advance the rises have been signalled, that is not good enough.

    Because she doesn't care! We've got @williamglenn and to a gentler extent @Big_G_NorthWales claiming Truss will intervene and some of us are just attacking her / the Tories. Based on what? That they believe she is a Massive Liar?

    She cannot be clearer. On a "here's what I would do as Prime Minister" tour for a month and a half, meetings all across the country saying the same thing over and over and over. Hope that she already has a plan up her sleeve, or that she will pick a plan supposedly being drawn up by the Treasury is to hope she is a massive liar saying "no handouts" whilst planning handouts.

    "You can trust her to act because she's a massive liar" is hardly a political position that will hold. So I believe the opposite is true - she isn't lying. I don't doubt that she will be forced to do *something*. But unlike the previous government whose belief only in Boris allowed the massive u-turn into furlough, this one has zeal behind it.

    When the pile of pensioner corpses grows too high and the "you've already had a handout" excuses just provoke actual riots, they will have to act. But it will be way too late, far too little, and aimed at the people who don't need it to ameliorate the horror of handouts.
    She hasn't said she won't provide any support. You have, she hasn't.

    She's said the priority is fixing the problem. That's right, so it should be. Support can be given as a secondary lesser priority but the priority must be to fix the problem, or else support won't just be needed this winter it will be needed every winter.

    Support should be a safety net where needed, not a way of life.

    Truss is right on this, and you are wrong.
    You listen to her last night - saying directly that "What isn’t right is to just bung more money into the system" and conclude that she said that she would be providing support after all.

    I take your perspectives on this under increasing amounts of advisement.
    What I read that she said last night is "support is on the way, via the Emergency Budget, but we can't just byng more money into the system ..."

    You take that to mean no support is on the way via the Emergency Budget. I take it to mean the opposite.

    If someone says to me "I have bad toothache, have you got any paracetamol" and I say "yes here you go, but don't just take paracetamol, you should see a dentist" then to a normal person that means take paracetamol and see the dentist. To you apparently it means no paracetamol for you!
  • Telegraph reporting that Crudas has 8,700 signatures for his Bring Back Boris petition.

    10K could see a constitutional crisis.

    Why? The Conservative Party has a membership of around 160k. 10k looks pretty poor.
    I don't understand the complexities but iirc 10k is enough to trigger some kind of special conference of activists that can change the rulebook and reinstate Johnson.

    He wouldn't be able to command the House so it is all a waste of time but could cause another dive in tory polling if it goes ahead.
    Triggering a special conference is one thing. Getting that special conference to change the rules and then acting under those new rules to get Johnson back is another thing. If 10k have signed the petition and 150k haven't... well, it's not exactly evidence that the Conservative Party is going to go for any such scheme.
    And Boris has distanced himself anyway

    And why would he want the job at this time ?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,399

    Thought suggestion:

    How many people would prefer no increase in energy bills if the cost was a reduction in house values of £10k per property ?

    Or a 5% fall in house values to allow for regional differences.

    Because housing wealth is the great untapped source of money.

    My guess is 100% of people who don't own a house, which is 37% of the population.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 357
    In a way, inaction by the government and Truss could be the best solution to this problem, and subsidies to energy could be the worst solution. There will be a shortage of energy in Europe, so if we subsidise energy consumption in the UK that will increase demand, which will force up prices even more. If other European countries do the same thing prices will go even higher.

    It is a question of the price elasticity of supply. High price elasticity of supply means that having much higher prices leads to very little additional supply, but to much higher profits for the suppliers. So, subsidising the price of energy in the next year or two will deliver much higher profits to the energy companies but do very little to increase energy supplies.

    There will be many people who cannot pay these higher bills, so what will happen to them? Normally, after a month or two they would be disconnected. The government needs to be planning now to set up public mobile phone and computer charging points. They would be offered a prepayment meter, and they would then have to make do with very little electricity / energy.

    One option the government could consider is energy rationing, similar to the food coupons that were used in World War II. This might require everyone to have a smart meter installed. This could mean that high energy users would be disconnected once they had used up their "ration", or that they would have have to pay a much higher price after that point.

    The problem is that we have a temporary severe shortage of energy, and people will have to use much less energy. The government cannot change this, except by building new power stations. In the meantime, it has to reduce demand for energy, while avoiding blackouts and bankrupting the country. If it fails we will end up like Lebanon and Sri Lanka.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,282

    The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    You've forgotten the puns. There will be puns.

    If the Sun goes out, I predict the humour will be very dark.
    We need a PM who knows Watt's watt.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 2,064

    The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    Or in simple terms: Liz has no idea!

    It's not hope, it's no hope!!

    😡😡😡😡😡
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    One for Dura_Ace:

    https://twitter.com/OleksandrKolym/status/1562839937786908673

    It's incredible flying, but I bet it's the sort of thing that'll go terribly wrong if you do it enough times...

    Didn't the German Airforce lose some Tornados, by flying too close to power lines? They didn't hit them, but the induced current crashed the flyby wire?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232

    Martin Lewis on James O'Brien. Started saying he is begging and pleading for anyone in government to act as he is "impotent". Now almost ranting describing factually how consumer numbers add up to them not being able to pay their bills.

    Ending with "it will be dark and cold".

    I would love Martin Lewis as PM or Chancellor.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
  • Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Southern softies - we just got out of bed and on with the pullovers.
    I was no southern softie

    I lived in Berwick and then Edinburgh at the time
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    The lights are going on across Europe.
    Just listened on BBC to a report from Germany that says the way their energy works there is a delay in rising prices but it will be as bad as the UK and even a 200% increase is possible

    He also said Germany was not in favour of windfall taxes
    In the UK people always favour taxes that fall on others and not themselves.
    In the UK people always favour taxes that fall on others and not themselves.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,700

    Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    I do not know or particularly understand Truss but her theme is consistent in saying she has not won the leadership

    I would also comment that if Truss does not come up with a huge relief package her premiership will be over before it starts
    Your latter sentence being the point I and others are making.
    It is not the first time I have made that observation
    I know. Its just that you maintain this hope against hope that she isn't an uncaring monster despite all the evidence - this morning's Mail piece included - that she is.
    Is that the Martin Lewis piece, please?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
    I've no great faith in their ability to sort the crisis, either. But at least they are thinking about it.
  • Taz said:

    Taz said:

    I don't understand why Truss can't say "this is what I would do on mitigating energy prices if I were elected Conservative leader and became PM". Sunak has done it, Starmer has done it. The only reason not to do it is because she does not yet know. Given how far in advance the rises have been signalled, that is not good enough.

    Because she doesn't care! We've got @williamglenn and to a gentler extent @Big_G_NorthWales claiming Truss will intervene and some of us are just attacking her / the Tories. Based on what? That they believe she is a Massive Liar?

    She cannot be clearer. On a "here's what I would do as Prime Minister" tour for a month and a half, meetings all across the country saying the same thing over and over and over. Hope that she already has a plan up her sleeve, or that she will pick a plan supposedly being drawn up by the Treasury is to hope she is a massive liar saying "no handouts" whilst planning handouts.

    "You can trust her to act because she's a massive liar" is hardly a political position that will hold. So I believe the opposite is true - she isn't lying. I don't doubt that she will be forced to do *something*. But unlike the previous government whose belief only in Boris allowed the massive u-turn into furlough, this one has zeal behind it.

    When the pile of pensioner corpses grows too high and the "you've already had a handout" excuses just provoke actual riots, they will have to act. But it will be way too late, far too little, and aimed at the people who don't need it to ameliorate the horror of handouts.
    She may be changing tack, if this is to be believed.

    I hold her in the same high regard as you do. However she has succeeded in politics by having principles that can be adopted or jetisoned as often as practical.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/truss-changes-tack-over-energy-bills-after-previously-saying-she-favours-tax-cuts-over-handouts/ar-AA116LWV?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=88d6f65729d64888f1fdf599ec5e27e5
    Even I have said she will be forced to act. It is what they do, when, and with what tone that is under question. She doesn't want handouts to the workshy. Repeated again last night. So when they put this together it won't be targeted. It will be universal to ensure her lot get theirs and so that she isn't rewarding failure. And it will be a loan.

    Which defers rather than resolves the problem of unpayable debt.
    You're lying, that's not what she said.

    What she said actually is that support is on the way, but her priority is fixing the problem.

    You're tilting at windmills.
    I *directly quoted* her. " “What isn’t right is to just bung more money into the system, what we actually need to do is fix the supply of energy.”

    Reading your pro-Truss posts is like watching a toddler throw a tantrum. You want your tax cut and people die so what. That the country is reacting in horror rather than agreeing with you has you with your arms crossed scowling and stamping the floor.
    Yes, to "just" bung more money into the system "isn't right".

    But she also explicitly said that support is on the way and you're lying by saying she said it isn't. Outright lie.

    Support is on the way, but it shouldn't just be that.
    If support is on the way she has had a somewhat Damascene conversion then. It remains to be seen what it is and how effective it is.

    Her only promises so far reward the wealthiest in society and do nothing for the poorest.

    There are two issues here. The short term pain and the medium to long term energy security of the nation. She needs to tackle both. Fixing on the medium to long term at the expense of the short term simply means she won't be around to implement anything post the next election.
    She literally said she'd do both.

    She specifically said there'd be support in the emergency budget.

    Rochdale dishonestly cut out her saying that and took the follow up the but where she would not "just" do what she'd just literally said she'd do, and twisted it to mean that she wouldn't do what she literally just said she would do.

    Taking half a sentence out of context to make it mean the opposite of what was said is lying.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232

    Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    The lights are going on across Europe.
    Just listened on BBC to a report from Germany that says the way their energy works there is a delay in rising prices but it will be as bad as the UK and even a 200% increase is possible

    He also said Germany was not in favour of windfall taxes
    In the UK people always favour taxes that fall on others and not themselves.
    In the UK people always favour taxes that fall on others and not themselves.
    An argument that suits the top 1%.

    The top 1% do not pay enough taxes. The other 99% say hang on, whether you are worth £22m or £21m does not make any difference to you, why not pay more taxes? Answer: Everyone wants someone other than them to pay taxes......just another cliche repeated ad nauseum to protect the elite.

    There is nothing wrong with expecting those with most, who have benefited from massive windfall gains in the last decade due to the low inflation environment, to contribute more especially in a time of crisis.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    High chance Europe will fold to Putin, as I’ve been saying since June
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673

    The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    You've forgotten the puns. There will be puns.

    If the Sun goes out, I predict the humour will be very dark.
    We need a PM who knows Watt's watt.
    The current one lacks capacitance.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 851

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Southern softies - we just got out of bed and on with the pullovers.
    I was no southern softie

    I lived in Berwick and then Edinburgh at the time
    "And you try and tell the young people of today that... they won't believe you"
  • mickydroymickydroy Posts: 139
    Foxy said:
    What a night that would be, The Tories down to 147 seats, wont be going to work next morning if that transpires, would be in no fit state, nothing more than this bunch of liars and charlatans deserve
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 2,644

    Thought suggestion:

    How many people would prefer no increase in energy bills if the cost was a reduction in house values of £10k per property ?

    Or a 5% fall in house values to allow for regional differences.

    Because housing wealth is the great untapped source of money.

    I would 100% support that (and I own outright a property).

    The Govt spends a huge amount of money on housing benefit. Bring down property prices, you bring down rents, and you cut government spending. An extra win!
  • dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
    Echoes one of the early Johnson mistakes, refusing to put ministers on unfriendly media. (I think it took Covid to reverse that one).

    If the government doesn't put up sacrificial lambs, the airtime gets filled by their opponents.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,741

    One for Dura_Ace:

    https://twitter.com/OleksandrKolym/status/1562839937786908673

    It's incredible flying, but I bet it's the sort of thing that'll go terribly wrong if you do it enough times...

    It's not technically difficult as they are just flying straight and level IGE, however a brass arsehole is required. Anything above about 50m gets shot down in the FEBA so both sides are hooning around like that.

    Crab Air tried it Wales without the excuse that they'd get splashed if they went any higher.


  • .

    I don't understand why Truss can't say "this is what I would do on mitigating energy prices if I were elected Conservative leader and became PM". Sunak has done it, Starmer has done it. The only reason not to do it is because she does not yet know. Given how far in advance the rises have been signalled, that is not good enough.

    Because she doesn't care! We've got @williamglenn and to a gentler extent @Big_G_NorthWales claiming Truss will intervene and some of us are just attacking her / the Tories. Based on what? That they believe she is a Massive Liar?

    She cannot be clearer. On a "here's what I would do as Prime Minister" tour for a month and a half, meetings all across the country saying the same thing over and over and over. Hope that she already has a plan up her sleeve, or that she will pick a plan supposedly being drawn up by the Treasury is to hope she is a massive liar saying "no handouts" whilst planning handouts.

    "You can trust her to act because she's a massive liar" is hardly a political position that will hold. So I believe the opposite is true - she isn't lying. I don't doubt that she will be forced to do *something*. But unlike the previous government whose belief only in Boris allowed the massive u-turn into furlough, this one has zeal behind it.

    When the pile of pensioner corpses grows too high and the "you've already had a handout" excuses just provoke actual riots, they will have to act. But it will be way too late, far too little, and aimed at the people who don't need it to ameliorate the horror of handouts.
    She hasn't said she won't provide any support. You have, she hasn't.

    She's said the priority is fixing the problem. That's right, so it should be. Support can be given as a secondary lesser priority but the priority must be to fix the problem, or else support won't just be needed this winter it will be needed every winter.

    Support should be a safety net where needed, not a way of life.

    Truss is right on this, and you are wrong.
    You listen to her last night - saying directly that "What isn’t right is to just bung more money into the system" and conclude that she said that she would be providing support after all.

    I take your perspectives on this under increasing amounts of advisement.
    What I read that she said last night is "support is on the way, via the Emergency Budget, but we can't just byng more money into the system ..."

    You take that to mean no support is on the way via the Emergency Budget. I take it to mean the opposite.

    If someone says to me "I have bad toothache, have you got any paracetamol" and I say "yes here you go, but don't just take paracetamol, you should see a dentist" then to a normal person that means take paracetamol and see the dentist. To you apparently it means no paracetamol for you!
    She is setting out what is going into the emergency budget. Your tax cut. A bonfire of regulations which they will rebate straight off bills. And thats it. She isn't even hinting at anything else.

    Your big play is that she is a massive liar so we should all trust her.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,399
    Leon said:

    High chance Europe will fold to Putin, as I’ve been saying since June

    But the US won't.

    For them, all their Christmases have come at once. It's an opportunity to shaft the Russian economy (no new parts for industry etc), decimate their manpower and obliterate their materiel -- all without a single American coming home in a body bag.

    If the lights going out across Europe is the price to pay for that, I am sure they will be very glad to have us pay it on their behalf.
  • Ghedebrav said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Southern softies - we just got out of bed and on with the pullovers.
    I was no southern softie

    I lived in Berwick and then Edinburgh at the time
    "And you try and tell the young people of today that... they won't believe you"
    They won't believe I was only a few hundred yards away from being killed with my mother, father, and sister when living in Manchester in 1944 when one of Hitler's bombs stopped above our house and fell nearby killing 6 neighbours
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Southern softies - we just got out of bed and on with the pullovers.
    Slackers. Real Men (TM) get up, and break the sea ice with their bare hands for their morning dip.
  • Taz said:

    Taz said:

    I don't understand why Truss can't say "this is what I would do on mitigating energy prices if I were elected Conservative leader and became PM". Sunak has done it, Starmer has done it. The only reason not to do it is because she does not yet know. Given how far in advance the rises have been signalled, that is not good enough.

    Because she doesn't care! We've got @williamglenn and to a gentler extent @Big_G_NorthWales claiming Truss will intervene and some of us are just attacking her / the Tories. Based on what? That they believe she is a Massive Liar?

    She cannot be clearer. On a "here's what I would do as Prime Minister" tour for a month and a half, meetings all across the country saying the same thing over and over and over. Hope that she already has a plan up her sleeve, or that she will pick a plan supposedly being drawn up by the Treasury is to hope she is a massive liar saying "no handouts" whilst planning handouts.

    "You can trust her to act because she's a massive liar" is hardly a political position that will hold. So I believe the opposite is true - she isn't lying. I don't doubt that she will be forced to do *something*. But unlike the previous government whose belief only in Boris allowed the massive u-turn into furlough, this one has zeal behind it.

    When the pile of pensioner corpses grows too high and the "you've already had a handout" excuses just provoke actual riots, they will have to act. But it will be way too late, far too little, and aimed at the people who don't need it to ameliorate the horror of handouts.
    She may be changing tack, if this is to be believed.

    I hold her in the same high regard as you do. However she has succeeded in politics by having principles that can be adopted or jetisoned as often as practical.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/truss-changes-tack-over-energy-bills-after-previously-saying-she-favours-tax-cuts-over-handouts/ar-AA116LWV?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=88d6f65729d64888f1fdf599ec5e27e5
    Even I have said she will be forced to act. It is what they do, when, and with what tone that is under question. She doesn't want handouts to the workshy. Repeated again last night. So when they put this together it won't be targeted. It will be universal to ensure her lot get theirs and so that she isn't rewarding failure. And it will be a loan.

    Which defers rather than resolves the problem of unpayable debt.
    You're lying, that's not what she said.

    What she said actually is that support is on the way, but her priority is fixing the problem.

    You're tilting at windmills.
    I *directly quoted* her. " “What isn’t right is to just bung more money into the system, what we actually need to do is fix the supply of energy.”

    Reading your pro-Truss posts is like watching a toddler throw a tantrum. You want your tax cut and people die so what. That the country is reacting in horror rather than agreeing with you has you with your arms crossed scowling and stamping the floor.
    Yes, to "just" bung more money into the system "isn't right".

    But she also explicitly said that support is on the way and you're lying by saying she said it isn't. Outright lie.

    Support is on the way, but it shouldn't just be that.
    If support is on the way she has had a somewhat Damascene conversion then. It remains to be seen what it is and how effective it is.

    Her only promises so far reward the wealthiest in society and do nothing for the poorest.

    There are two issues here. The short term pain and the medium to long term energy security of the nation. She needs to tackle both. Fixing on the medium to long term at the expense of the short term simply means she won't be around to implement anything post the next election.
    She literally said she'd do both.

    She specifically said there'd be support in the emergency budget.

    Rochdale dishonestly cut out her saying that and took the follow up the but where she would not "just" do what she'd just literally said she'd do, and twisted it to mean that she wouldn't do what she literally just said she would do.

    Taking half a sentence out of context to make it mean the opposite of what was said is lying.
    Daft sod. I quoted verbatim line after line after line from her article. Two whole paragraphs:

    "To those of you feeling the squeeze, my message is clear: I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times. My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance.

    I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153. This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    A new Challenger enters the arena

    https://twitter.com/PeoplePolling/status/1563090691000938496

    Our first Westminster Voting Intention poll:

    LAB: 40%
    CON: 26%
    LDM: 11%
    GRN: 6%
    SNP: 6%

    Sample size: 1,235. Fieldwork: 22 Aug. Full tables: https://peoplepolling.org/tables/202208_GBN_W34_full.pdf


    Commissioned by GB News.

    I'm sure Leon will be commenting on the SNP figure to work out if peak SNP has passed.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kyf_100 said:

    Thought suggestion:

    How many people would prefer no increase in energy bills if the cost was a reduction in house values of £10k per property ?

    Or a 5% fall in house values to allow for regional differences.

    Because housing wealth is the great untapped source of money.

    My guess is 100% of people who don't own a house, which is 37% of the population.
    Back to front, why would non owners mind a price drop?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    Foxy said:

    The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    You've forgotten the puns. There will be puns.

    If the Sun goes out, I predict the humour will be very dark.
    We need a PM who knows Watt's watt.
    The current one lacks capacitance.
    Resistance is not futile.
  • The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    Or in simple terms: Liz has no idea!

    It's not hope, it's no hope!!

    😡😡😡😡😡
    Very bad times ahead for pubs and restaurants. Falling custom and soaring bills...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Good word cloud at the end


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,393
    Leon said:

    High chance Europe will fold to Putin, as I’ve been saying since June

    Even if they did just that, Putin will still keep the gas taps turned off. Because he can.
  • dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
    Echoes one of the early Johnson mistakes, refusing to put ministers on unfriendly media. (I think it took Covid to reverse that one).

    If the government doesn't put up sacrificial lambs, the airtime gets filled by their opponents.
    Zahawi has just had an extensive interview on Sky
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103

    Torsten Bell
    @TorstenBell
    This chart tells you why there is no world in which the new Prime Minister won't be stepping in to the tune of tens of billions of pounds to cap energy bills below market rates

    https://twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/1563100113278746624
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    The lights are going on across Europe.
    Just listened on BBC to a report from Germany that says the way their energy works there is a delay in rising prices but it will be as bad as the UK and even a 200% increase is possible

    He also said Germany was not in favour of windfall taxes
    In the UK people always favour taxes that fall on others and not themselves.
    In the UK people always favour taxes that fall on others and not themselves.
    An argument that suits the top 1%.

    The top 1% do not pay enough taxes. The other 99% say hang on, whether you are worth £22m or £21m does not make any difference to you, why not pay more taxes? Answer: Everyone wants someone other than them to pay taxes......just another cliche repeated ad nauseum to protect the elite.

    There is nothing wrong with expecting those with most, who have benefited from massive windfall gains in the last decade due to the low inflation environment, to contribute more especially in a time of crisis.
    You forgot that everyone thinks that "other people" are the elite. I was mildly surprised to meet *MPs* who thought they were poor, or somehow not The Man, when I was younger.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
    Echoes one of the early Johnson mistakes, refusing to put ministers on unfriendly media. (I think it took Covid to reverse that one).

    If the government doesn't put up sacrificial lambs, the airtime gets filled by their opponents.
    Zahawi has just had an extensive interview on Sky
    And?
    Has he said anything?
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 851

    Ghedebrav said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Southern softies - we just got out of bed and on with the pullovers.
    I was no southern softie

    I lived in Berwick and then Edinburgh at the time
    "And you try and tell the young people of today that... they won't believe you"
    They won't believe I was only a few hundred yards away from being killed with my mother, father, and sister when living in Manchester in 1944 when one of Hitler's bombs stopped above our house and fell nearby killing 6 neighbours
    It was quote from the Four Yorkshireman sketch, a eternal classic of which I'm often put in mind when lurking on here.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Alistair said:

    Good word cloud at the end


    Sad thing is she'll probably take the rest of that vs Thatcher being in there.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    Alistair said:

    A new Challenger enters the arena

    https://twitter.com/PeoplePolling/status/1563090691000938496

    Our first Westminster Voting Intention poll:

    LAB: 40%
    CON: 26%
    LDM: 11%
    GRN: 6%
    SNP: 6%

    Sample size: 1,235. Fieldwork: 22 Aug. Full tables: https://peoplepolling.org/tables/202208_GBN_W34_full.pdf


    Commissioned by GB News.

    I'm sure Leon will be commenting on the SNP figure to work out if peak SNP has passed.


    My comment is that this poll looks decidedly rogue, on multiple fronts

    I don’t doubt that Labour have a sizeable lead. But 14 points? Am Skeptical
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232

    Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    The lights are going on across Europe.
    Just listened on BBC to a report from Germany that says the way their energy works there is a delay in rising prices but it will be as bad as the UK and even a 200% increase is possible

    He also said Germany was not in favour of windfall taxes
    In the UK people always favour taxes that fall on others and not themselves.
    In the UK people always favour taxes that fall on others and not themselves.
    An argument that suits the top 1%.

    The top 1% do not pay enough taxes. The other 99% say hang on, whether you are worth £22m or £21m does not make any difference to you, why not pay more taxes? Answer: Everyone wants someone other than them to pay taxes......just another cliche repeated ad nauseum to protect the elite.

    There is nothing wrong with expecting those with most, who have benefited from massive windfall gains in the last decade due to the low inflation environment, to contribute more especially in a time of crisis.
    You forgot that everyone thinks that "other people" are the elite. I was mildly surprised to meet *MPs* who thought they were poor, or somehow not The Man, when I was younger.
    It is not a question of forgetting, but a question of maths. The top 1% in the world took 82% of the wealth generated from 2008-2018. They made $6.5 trillion last year alone. They own over half the shares individually owned on the US stock markets.

    I think they should pay more, whether you or I are included or not as individuals is frankly irrelevant to public policy choices.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853
    edited August 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    High chance Europe will fold to Putin, as I’ve been saying since June

    Even if they did just that, Putin will still keep the gas taps turned off. Because he can.
    That's likely true - though it's also likely that Putin will favour individual countries (as he has already done with Hungary) who kowtow. Italy, for example.

    But the bottom line is that we just invite further repeats of the process if we give in.
    And in the meantime let him acquire Ukraine's sizeable gas deposits.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,337
    edited August 2022
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
    Echoes one of the early Johnson mistakes, refusing to put ministers on unfriendly media. (I think it took Covid to reverse that one).

    If the government doesn't put up sacrificial lambs, the airtime gets filled by their opponents.
    Zahawi has just had an extensive interview on Sky
    And?
    Has he said anything?
    Outlined present support and confirmed a package of support will be forthcoming from the new PM

    Holding position that frankly is absurd but as I keep saying at Brady 's door for allowing this ludicrous campaign to go on so long as it has at a time the country wants its government

    I do not hold back on my anger at the conservative party at present and Truss has September to deal with this or it will be time for Starmer though he hasn't really got a plan for helping beyond 6 months and nothing for businesses
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Southern softies - we just got out of bed and on with the pullovers.
    I was no southern softie

    I lived in Berwick and then Edinburgh at the time
    "And you try and tell the young people of today that... they won't believe you"
    They won't believe I was only a few hundred yards away from being killed with my mother, father, and sister when living in Manchester in 1944 when one of Hitler's bombs stopped above our house and fell nearby killing 6 neighbours
    It was quote from the Four Yorkshireman sketch, a eternal classic of which I'm often put in mind when lurking on here.
    Well you might be, but the stats for central heating in the 1960s are pretty solid, as are the meteorological data. Hard freeze plus unheated bedroom - do the math.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    Julian Jessop 🇬🇧 🇺🇦
    @julianHjessop
    ·
    3h
    Reminder - the #Ofgem price cap sets a maximum supplier profit of less than 2%.

    And unlike #energy producers and extractors, most domestic suppliers are not currently making any profit at all.

    And yet these are the businesses some want to nationalise... 🤷‍♂️

    https://twitter.com/julianHjessop/status/1563058124184887298
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
    Echoes one of the early Johnson mistakes, refusing to put ministers on unfriendly media. (I think it took Covid to reverse that one).

    If the government doesn't put up sacrificial lambs, the airtime gets filled by their opponents.
    Zahawi has just had an extensive interview on Sky
    And?
    Has he said anything?
    He said earlier he was 'working flat out' on it. Most respondees on twitter were minded not to believe him.
    Truss snd Sunak should really agree a joint statement. Something like 'whilst we will have differing exact details and proposals, both our teams are working with the treasury to plan an extensive package to address the energy crisis which will be laid before parliament by whomever wins the leadership'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,101
    NEW on @BloombergUK >>

    Here we go… The first signs of tensions in the Truss camp have emerged this week

    Disagreements on two major issues:

    — how far to go on cost of living support
    — who should fill key roles in No10

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-25/does-liz-truss-have-plan-for-uk-cost-of-living-crisis-allies-are-divided
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    A new Challenger enters the arena

    https://twitter.com/PeoplePolling/status/1563090691000938496

    Our first Westminster Voting Intention poll:

    LAB: 40%
    CON: 26%
    LDM: 11%
    GRN: 6%
    SNP: 6%

    Sample size: 1,235. Fieldwork: 22 Aug. Full tables: https://peoplepolling.org/tables/202208_GBN_W34_full.pdf


    Commissioned by GB News.

    I'm sure Leon will be commenting on the SNP figure to work out if peak SNP has passed.


    My comment is that this poll looks decidedly rogue, on multiple fronts

    I don’t doubt that Labour have a sizeable lead. But 14 points? Am Skeptical
    11% other others. The return of UKIP, lol
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,495

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
    Echoes one of the early Johnson mistakes, refusing to put ministers on unfriendly media. (I think it took Covid to reverse that one).

    If the government doesn't put up sacrificial lambs, the airtime gets filled by their opponents.
    Zahawi has just had an extensive interview on Sky
    And?
    Has he said anything?
    He said earlier he was 'working flat out' on it. Most respondees on twitter were minded not to believe him.
    Truss snd Sunak should really agree a joint statement. Something like 'whilst we will have differing exact details and proposals, both our teams are working with the treasury to plan an extensive package to address the energy crisis which will be laid before parliament by whomever wins the leadership'
    With respect, the time for working on a plan is long gone. The have had since March to see this coming and put in place plans.

    Abject abdication of duty by HMG.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 2,064
    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    A new Challenger enters the arena

    https://twitter.com/PeoplePolling/status/1563090691000938496

    Our first Westminster Voting Intention poll:

    LAB: 40%
    CON: 26%
    LDM: 11%
    GRN: 6%
    SNP: 6%

    Sample size: 1,235. Fieldwork: 22 Aug. Full tables: https://peoplepolling.org/tables/202208_GBN_W34_full.pdf


    Commissioned by GB News.

    I'm sure Leon will be commenting on the SNP figure to work out if peak SNP has passed.


    My comment is that this poll looks decidedly rogue, on multiple fronts

    I don’t doubt that Labour have a sizeable lead. But 14 points? Am Skeptical
    I - who have voted LAB in my time - consider this government to be the biggest shower of shyte of all time. However although I won't vote CON now I am certainly not voting for LAB.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,393
    From all the comments here today, you’d think that the government hadn’t already announced a £37,000,000,000 package of support measures for this winter, and that the likely next PM has already committed to remove VAT and green levies from energy bills before the winter.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/energy-bills-support-scheme-explainer

    The Energy Bills Support Scheme will deliver a £400 non-repayable discount to eligible households to help with energy bills from October

    Households most in need will be eligible for further support in addition to the Energy Bills discount. This includes:
    1. a £650 one-off Cost of Living Payment for around 8 million households on means tested benefits
    2. a one-off £300 Pensioner Cost of Living Payment for over 8 million pensioner households to be paid alongside the Winter Fuel Payment
    3. a payment of £150 for around 6 million people across the UK who receive certain disability benefits
    4. a £500 million increase and extension of the Household Support Fund
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,700

    Foxy said:

    The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    You've forgotten the puns. There will be puns.

    If the Sun goes out, I predict the humour will be very dark.
    We need a PM who knows Watt's watt.
    The current one lacks capacitance.
    Resistance is not futile.
    A logical induction.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,788

    Probably not the results GBNews was hoping for from its first foray into polling:

    Westminster VI:
    🌹LAB: 40%
    🌳CON: 26%
    🔶LDM: 11%

    Best PM:
    🌹Starmer: 41%
    🌳Truss: 22%

    🌹Starmer: 40%
    🌳Sunak: 23%

    https://www.gbnews.uk/news/brits-want-keir-starmer-to-become-prime-minister-over-both-liz-truss-and-rishi-sunak-gb-news-peoples-poll-finds/357586

    I was amused by the following at the end of that GB news report:

    When asked to give one word they associated with Liz Truss, Brits' top answer was "untrustworthy".
    Unfortunately for Ms Truss, second most popular answer was "useless", with the even less flattering "idiot" in third.


    So, the Tories are about to elect an untrustworthy, useless idiot.
    There’s a first time for…

    Oh.
  • Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    A new Challenger enters the arena

    https://twitter.com/PeoplePolling/status/1563090691000938496

    Our first Westminster Voting Intention poll:

    LAB: 40%
    CON: 26%
    LDM: 11%
    GRN: 6%
    SNP: 6%

    Sample size: 1,235. Fieldwork: 22 Aug. Full tables: https://peoplepolling.org/tables/202208_GBN_W34_full.pdf


    Commissioned by GB News.

    I'm sure Leon will be commenting on the SNP figure to work out if peak SNP has passed.


    My comment is that this poll looks decidedly rogue, on multiple fronts

    I don’t doubt that Labour have a sizeable lead. But 14 points? Am Skeptical
    I - who have voted LAB in my time - consider this government to be the biggest shower of shyte of all time. However although I won't vote CON now I am certainly not voting for LAB.
    Despite the polls showing teenage Labour leads - and I expect the leads will come of age soon - I suspect that many people will feel similarly to yourself.

    And that will be enough in many seats. If a chunk of 2019 Con voters sit on their hands or vote Green/REFUK/UKIP (stop laughing), Labour will win the seats and with it the election.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
    Echoes one of the early Johnson mistakes, refusing to put ministers on unfriendly media. (I think it took Covid to reverse that one).

    If the government doesn't put up sacrificial lambs, the airtime gets filled by their opponents.
    Zahawi has just had an extensive interview on Sky
    And?
    Has he said anything?
    He said earlier he was 'working flat out' on it. Most respondees on twitter were minded not to believe him.
    Truss snd Sunak should really agree a joint statement. Something like 'whilst we will have differing exact details and proposals, both our teams are working with the treasury to plan an extensive package to address the energy crisis which will be laid before parliament by whomever wins the leadership'
    With respect, the time for working on a plan is long gone. The have had since March to see this coming and put in place plans.

    Abject abdication of duty by HMG.
    The plan (whatever it is) will need to be in conjunction with other European countries, at the very least.

    Otherwise, as someone else pointed out on this thread, It will be simply paying more money to producer countries for no extra gas.
  • Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    A new Challenger enters the arena

    https://twitter.com/PeoplePolling/status/1563090691000938496

    Our first Westminster Voting Intention poll:

    LAB: 40%
    CON: 26%
    LDM: 11%
    GRN: 6%
    SNP: 6%

    Sample size: 1,235. Fieldwork: 22 Aug. Full tables: https://peoplepolling.org/tables/202208_GBN_W34_full.pdf


    Commissioned by GB News.

    I'm sure Leon will be commenting on the SNP figure to work out if peak SNP has passed.


    My comment is that this poll looks decidedly rogue, on multiple fronts

    I don’t doubt that Labour have a sizeable lead. But 14 points? Am Skeptical
    New pollster, so who knows?

    But the Wikipedia worm is currently at L42 C31, so an eleven point lead. You don't have to be that far off to get a fourteen point lead.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW on @BloombergUK >>

    Here we go… The first signs of tensions in the Truss camp have emerged this week

    Disagreements on two major issues:

    — how far to go on cost of living support
    — who should fill key roles in No10

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-25/does-liz-truss-have-plan-for-uk-cost-of-living-crisis-allies-are-divided

    That there is a divide between those who believe she is saying what she is saying to get elected, and those who believe that she believes what she says, and believe it, too, shouldn't come as much of a surprise.
    Trouble is. One lot will be sorely disappointed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    You've forgotten the puns. There will be puns.

    If the Sun goes out, I predict the humour will be very dark.
    We need a PM who knows Watt's watt.
    The current one lacks capacitance.
    Resistance is not futile.
    A logical induction.
    The flux of the political scene.....
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 357
    I foresee an energy policy for the UK government until the crisis is resolved:

    1) Businesses must pay the market rate.
    2) All residential energy consumers must have compulsory installation of a smart meter.
    3) Low energy use will be encouraged. Each successive unit used by a consumer will cost more than the previous unit that day.
    4) Even rich consumers may be asked to pay for their energy in advance.
    5) Until the plan is implemented there may be blackouts at times.

    These are emergency measures, but COVID has shown that the country will accept temporary extreme emergency measures.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,399
    IshmaelZ said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Thought suggestion:

    How many people would prefer no increase in energy bills if the cost was a reduction in house values of £10k per property ?

    Or a 5% fall in house values to allow for regional differences.

    Because housing wealth is the great untapped source of money.

    My guess is 100% of people who don't own a house, which is 37% of the population.
    Back to front, why would non owners mind a price drop?
    Fair point, I misread that. Allow me to rephrase - I think at least 37% of the population would strongly support a policy that both reduces house prices by 10k and keeps their energy bills low.
  • Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    The sun explodes.

    Liz Truss:

    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    PB hot takes:

    1. The sun exploding offers a great opportunity for Starmer to present a coherent plan for how he will deal with the sun exploding.
    2. I've voted Conservative all my life (apart from T Blair) and I've ripped up my membership card again. The sun exploding is a disgrace and I've let the local chair of the party know.
    3. I've been to 94.3% of the countries on this planet and eaten in the best restaurants in all of those. When the lights go out on this world, AND THEY WILL, I'll be hunkered down in an obscure hamlet in Bulgaria, surrounded by prostitutes, bottles of ludicrously expensive wine and Dalle-2 inspired artwork. ONLY AI CAN SAVE US NOW (and it will).
    4. Liz never said she wouldn't offer support with the sun exploding, she just said she would would focus on the root cause of the problem, which is the planning laws and the fact that people can't build where they want to. Bottom line, once the market is allowed to properly operate there isn't a problem.

    You've forgotten the puns. There will be puns.

    If the Sun goes out, I predict the humour will be very dark.
    We need a PM who knows Watt's watt.
    The current one lacks capacitance.
    Resistance is not futile.
    A logical induction.
    It's all about the lenghts people go to when they're seeking power.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232
    Sandpit said:

    From all the comments here today, you’d think that the government hadn’t already announced a £37,000,000,000 package of support measures for this winter, and that the likely next PM has already committed to remove VAT and green levies from energy bills before the winter.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/energy-bills-support-scheme-explainer

    The Energy Bills Support Scheme will deliver a £400 non-repayable discount to eligible households to help with energy bills from October

    Households most in need will be eligible for further support in addition to the Energy Bills discount. This includes:
    1. a £650 one-off Cost of Living Payment for around 8 million households on means tested benefits
    2. a one-off £300 Pensioner Cost of Living Payment for over 8 million pensioner households to be paid alongside the Winter Fuel Payment
    3. a payment of £150 for around 6 million people across the UK who receive certain disability benefits
    4. a £500 million increase and extension of the Household Support Fund

    People whose post tax incomes are <£20k are being offered £10k 1 year energy fixes.......time to recognise that head in the sands and sticking plasters are not going to work.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
    Echoes one of the early Johnson mistakes, refusing to put ministers on unfriendly media. (I think it took Covid to reverse that one).

    If the government doesn't put up sacrificial lambs, the airtime gets filled by their opponents.
    Zahawi has just had an extensive interview on Sky
    And?
    Has he said anything?
    He said earlier he was 'working flat out' on it. Most respondees on twitter were minded not to believe him.
    Truss snd Sunak should really agree a joint statement. Something like 'whilst we will have differing exact details and proposals, both our teams are working with the treasury to plan an extensive package to address the energy crisis which will be laid before parliament by whomever wins the leadership'
    With respect, the time for working on a plan is long gone. The have had since March to see this coming and put in place plans.

    Abject abdication of duty by HMG.
    Not really. They need to act before the cap increase takes effect (October). The abject failure woukd be to not do that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    Old people are like dogs. Sometimes nice to have, a bit of undemanding company, but you have to move them about and they poo everywhere

    And in times of acute distress the Labradoodle is maybe an indulgence we can’t afford
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,101
    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 41% (+2)
    CON: 33% (-2)
    LDM: 11% (-1)
    GRN: 6% (+1)
    SNP: 4% (=)

    Via @techneUK, 17-18 Aug.
    Changes w/ 10-11 Aug.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232
    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW on @BloombergUK >>

    Here we go… The first signs of tensions in the Truss camp have emerged this week

    Disagreements on two major issues:

    — how far to go on cost of living support
    — who should fill key roles in No10

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-25/does-liz-truss-have-plan-for-uk-cost-of-living-crisis-allies-are-divided

    That there is a divide between those who believe she is saying what she is saying to get elected, and those who believe that she believes what she says, and believe it, too, shouldn't come as much of a surprise.
    Trouble is. One lot will be sorely disappointed.
    Realistically, both will end up sorely disappointed, just for slightly different reasons.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,965

    @francis_scarr
    Occasionally even I am shocked by what I see on Russian state TV

    Last night Vladimir Solovyov accused Olaf Scholz of imitating "his idol" Adolf Hitler and called for missile strikes on the German military facility where Ukrainian soldiers are being trained to use Gepard tanks


    https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1563094037728337920

    Lol, it's not just Liz Truss who should stay away from tanks. :lol:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,495

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.

    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1563085347298619393
    Labour spokesman on now. Getting a full half hour.
    It may not be a great plan, but it exists. Which is a huge advantage.
    Echoes one of the early Johnson mistakes, refusing to put ministers on unfriendly media. (I think it took Covid to reverse that one).

    If the government doesn't put up sacrificial lambs, the airtime gets filled by their opponents.
    Zahawi has just had an extensive interview on Sky
    And?
    Has he said anything?
    He said earlier he was 'working flat out' on it. Most respondees on twitter were minded not to believe him.
    Truss snd Sunak should really agree a joint statement. Something like 'whilst we will have differing exact details and proposals, both our teams are working with the treasury to plan an extensive package to address the energy crisis which will be laid before parliament by whomever wins the leadership'
    With respect, the time for working on a plan is long gone. The have had since March to see this coming and put in place plans.

    Abject abdication of duty by HMG.
    The plan (whatever it is) will need to be in conjunction with other European countries, at the very least.

    Otherwise, as someone else pointed out on this thread, It will be simply paying more money to producer countries for no extra gas.
    Ok, please explain that to me. The wholesale price is the wholesale price. The current retail price is that plus overheads and distribution plus some tax.

    The government could turn that tax into a subsidy to bring the retail price back down. That subsidy paid for by a combination of windfall taxes, wealth taxes, the benefits bill saving by lowering inflation, and borrowing.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,101
    Chancellor Nadhim Zahawi on energy consumption:

    "The reality is that we should all look at our energy consumption. It is a difficult time."

    First time a senior minister has suggested this?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1563105854248734729

    You lot will still pay to heat my stables this winter, he did not add...
  • With the Truss Sunak tour now in its 17th week, is there any reason why the two rival candidates could not have agreed together the outlines of a plan to reassure consumers today?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    A new Challenger enters the arena

    https://twitter.com/PeoplePolling/status/1563090691000938496

    Our first Westminster Voting Intention poll:

    LAB: 40%
    CON: 26%
    LDM: 11%
    GRN: 6%
    SNP: 6%

    Sample size: 1,235. Fieldwork: 22 Aug. Full tables: https://peoplepolling.org/tables/202208_GBN_W34_full.pdf


    Commissioned by GB News.

    I'm sure Leon will be commenting on the SNP figure to work out if peak SNP has passed.


    My comment is that this poll looks decidedly rogue, on multiple fronts

    I don’t doubt that Labour have a sizeable lead. But 14 points? Am Skeptical
    11% other others. The return of UKIP, lol
    Reform on 5% and Other on 5%.

    The big thing ( and shows how soft the headline lead figure is) is that 22% of 2019 Con voters are undecided.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,101
    In our regular Westminster voting intention tracker, Labour's lead has doubled to eight points in two weeks:

    Lab 41% (+2)
    Con 33% (-2)
    LibDem 11% (-1)
    Green 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (nc)

    1,641 questioned on 17-18 August. Changes with 10-11 August.

    http://www.technetracker.co.uk https://twitter.com/techneUK/status/1563075063032987652/photo/1
  • Taz said:

    Taz said:

    I don't understand why Truss can't say "this is what I would do on mitigating energy prices if I were elected Conservative leader and became PM". Sunak has done it, Starmer has done it. The only reason not to do it is because she does not yet know. Given how far in advance the rises have been signalled, that is not good enough.

    Because she doesn't care! We've got @williamglenn and to a gentler extent @Big_G_NorthWales claiming Truss will intervene and some of us are just attacking her / the Tories. Based on what? That they believe she is a Massive Liar?

    She cannot be clearer. On a "here's what I would do as Prime Minister" tour for a month and a half, meetings all across the country saying the same thing over and over and over. Hope that she already has a plan up her sleeve, or that she will pick a plan supposedly being drawn up by the Treasury is to hope she is a massive liar saying "no handouts" whilst planning handouts.

    "You can trust her to act because she's a massive liar" is hardly a political position that will hold. So I believe the opposite is true - she isn't lying. I don't doubt that she will be forced to do *something*. But unlike the previous government whose belief only in Boris allowed the massive u-turn into furlough, this one has zeal behind it.

    When the pile of pensioner corpses grows too high and the "you've already had a handout" excuses just provoke actual riots, they will have to act. But it will be way too late, far too little, and aimed at the people who don't need it to ameliorate the horror of handouts.
    She may be changing tack, if this is to be believed.

    I hold her in the same high regard as you do. However she has succeeded in politics by having principles that can be adopted or jetisoned as often as practical.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/truss-changes-tack-over-energy-bills-after-previously-saying-she-favours-tax-cuts-over-handouts/ar-AA116LWV?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=88d6f65729d64888f1fdf599ec5e27e5
    Even I have said she will be forced to act. It is what they do, when, and with what tone that is under question. She doesn't want handouts to the workshy. Repeated again last night. So when they put this together it won't be targeted. It will be universal to ensure her lot get theirs and so that she isn't rewarding failure. And it will be a loan.

    Which defers rather than resolves the problem of unpayable debt.
    You're lying, that's not what she said.

    What she said actually is that support is on the way, but her priority is fixing the problem.

    You're tilting at windmills.
    I *directly quoted* her. " “What isn’t right is to just bung more money into the system, what we actually need to do is fix the supply of energy.”

    Reading your pro-Truss posts is like watching a toddler throw a tantrum. You want your tax cut and people die so what. That the country is reacting in horror rather than agreeing with you has you with your arms crossed scowling and stamping the floor.
    Yes, to "just" bung more money into the system "isn't right".

    But she also explicitly said that support is on the way and you're lying by saying she said it isn't. Outright lie.

    Support is on the way, but it shouldn't just be that.
    If support is on the way she has had a somewhat Damascene conversion then. It remains to be seen what it is and how effective it is.

    Her only promises so far reward the wealthiest in society and do nothing for the poorest.

    There are two issues here. The short term pain and the medium to long term energy security of the nation. She needs to tackle both. Fixing on the medium to long term at the expense of the short term simply means she won't be around to implement anything post the next election.
    She literally said she'd do both.

    She specifically said there'd be support in the emergency budget.

    Rochdale dishonestly cut out her saying that and took the follow up the but where she would not "just" do what she'd just literally said she'd do, and twisted it to mean that she wouldn't do what she literally just said she would do.

    Taking half a sentence out of context to make it mean the opposite of what was said is lying.
    Daft sod. I quoted verbatim line after line after line from her article. Two whole paragraphs:

    "To those of you feeling the squeeze, my message is clear: I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times. My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance.

    I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153. This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."
    "such as" means it will be part of the Emergency Budget, not exclusively all of it, you daft sod.
  • Taz said:

    Taz said:

    I don't understand why Truss can't say "this is what I would do on mitigating energy prices if I were elected Conservative leader and became PM". Sunak has done it, Starmer has done it. The only reason not to do it is because she does not yet know. Given how far in advance the rises have been signalled, that is not good enough.

    Because she doesn't care! We've got @williamglenn and to a gentler extent @Big_G_NorthWales claiming Truss will intervene and some of us are just attacking her / the Tories. Based on what? That they believe she is a Massive Liar?

    She cannot be clearer. On a "here's what I would do as Prime Minister" tour for a month and a half, meetings all across the country saying the same thing over and over and over. Hope that she already has a plan up her sleeve, or that she will pick a plan supposedly being drawn up by the Treasury is to hope she is a massive liar saying "no handouts" whilst planning handouts.

    "You can trust her to act because she's a massive liar" is hardly a political position that will hold. So I believe the opposite is true - she isn't lying. I don't doubt that she will be forced to do *something*. But unlike the previous government whose belief only in Boris allowed the massive u-turn into furlough, this one has zeal behind it.

    When the pile of pensioner corpses grows too high and the "you've already had a handout" excuses just provoke actual riots, they will have to act. But it will be way too late, far too little, and aimed at the people who don't need it to ameliorate the horror of handouts.
    She may be changing tack, if this is to be believed.

    I hold her in the same high regard as you do. However she has succeeded in politics by having principles that can be adopted or jetisoned as often as practical.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/truss-changes-tack-over-energy-bills-after-previously-saying-she-favours-tax-cuts-over-handouts/ar-AA116LWV?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=88d6f65729d64888f1fdf599ec5e27e5
    Even I have said she will be forced to act. It is what they do, when, and with what tone that is under question. She doesn't want handouts to the workshy. Repeated again last night. So when they put this together it won't be targeted. It will be universal to ensure her lot get theirs and so that she isn't rewarding failure. And it will be a loan.

    Which defers rather than resolves the problem of unpayable debt.
    You're lying, that's not what she said.

    What she said actually is that support is on the way, but her priority is fixing the problem.

    You're tilting at windmills.
    I *directly quoted* her. " “What isn’t right is to just bung more money into the system, what we actually need to do is fix the supply of energy.”

    Reading your pro-Truss posts is like watching a toddler throw a tantrum. You want your tax cut and people die so what. That the country is reacting in horror rather than agreeing with you has you with your arms crossed scowling and stamping the floor.
    Yes, to "just" bung more money into the system "isn't right".

    But she also explicitly said that support is on the way and you're lying by saying she said it isn't. Outright lie.

    Support is on the way, but it shouldn't just be that.
    If support is on the way she has had a somewhat Damascene conversion then. It remains to be seen what it is and how effective it is.

    Her only promises so far reward the wealthiest in society and do nothing for the poorest.

    There are two issues here. The short term pain and the medium to long term energy security of the nation. She needs to tackle both. Fixing on the medium to long term at the expense of the short term simply means she won't be around to implement anything post the next election.
    She literally said she'd do both.

    She specifically said there'd be support in the emergency budget.

    Rochdale dishonestly cut out her saying that and took the follow up the but where she would not "just" do what she'd just literally said she'd do, and twisted it to mean that she wouldn't do what she literally just said she would do.

    Taking half a sentence out of context to make it mean the opposite of what was said is lying.
    Daft sod. I quoted verbatim line after line after line from her article. Two whole paragraphs:

    "To those of you feeling the squeeze, my message is clear: I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times. My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance.

    I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153. This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."
    "such as" means it will be part of the Emergency Budget, not exclusively all of it, you daft sod.
    So your big play is that we can trust Truss because she has been lying for weeks? Great!
This discussion has been closed.