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Whilst CON MPs don’t decide who leads they can sack the winner – politicalbetting.com

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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103

    Telegraph reporting that Crudas has 8,700 signatures for his Bring Back Boris petition.

    10K could see a constitutional crisis.

    Why? The Conservative Party has a membership of around 160k. 10k looks pretty poor.
    I don't understand the complexities but iirc 10k is enough to trigger some kind of special conference of activists that can change the rulebook and reinstate Johnson.

    He wouldn't be able to command the House so it is all a waste of time but could cause another dive in tory polling if it goes ahead.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,523

    dixiedean said:

    I understand that there is a hiatus is prime ministerial power. But we are still meant to have a functioning government, aren't we? Even if major decisions can't be made, messages can still be delivered.

    The failure to put up anybody to do the media rounds this morning indicates that government isn't functioning. Even if they couldn't make major announcements, they could have done some messaging - "Ofgem announcement very concerning - we advise people to try to reduce their energy consumption" or whatever.

    The absence of government, not just on energy but on all matters, since the leadership contest started is, to be blunt, a fucking disgrace. And I think the public have noticed.

    It truely is a disgrace and Brady with his idiotic 1922 committee should hang their heads in shame, and I speak as a conservative

    Sky business saying just now the scale of this crisis dwarfs covid and projects are least 100 billion is needed for the next 12 months from central government
    "Like the Poll Tax. Just much more expensive." says Martin Lewis.
    My moneysavingexpert tip of the week. Join a nearby gym for your showers.

    A 6 minute power shower is about 3kWH or £1.50 under the new electricity price cap. Could be £3 for the following one. Most gym memberships will be fully paid for in showers!
    Gyms will be the first to the wall.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,921

    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:
    Tell your grandchildren, and great grandchildren yet unborn, to sellotape their piggy banks. They are, once again, coming for you.

    Our 5th grandchild is due a week today
    Oh dear, more grandad babysitting required.

    :)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: @ofgem announces energy price cap will rise to £3,549 for the average bill from Oct 1. An 80% increase from the current level of £1,971

    That's not the cap. That's an estimate of what an average household might pay. The cap is on the unit price and standing charge.

    @Big_G_NorthWales at least we can all rest easy safe in the knowledge that Graham Brady had a nice summer holiday.

    He was in a well-known London retailer in the last couple of days seeking to buy a water pistol.

    Make up your own political metaphor.

    I'm not sure the standing Charge is capped.
    https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
  • algarkirk said:

    The hours long discussion about energy bills would be more interesting if occasionally four things were mentioned:

    1) The government has no money except our money

    2) At the moment our grandchildren's credit card has been maxed out by a combination of the banking crisis, pandemic and general uselessness

    3) The gigantic profits of wicked oil and gas pay vastly into the wicked pension funds of Joe Public

    4) Taxpayers and those hit by massive energy prices are largely the same people

    And one unasked question raised: Who exactly pays for all this free money?

    One of the odder things last year were stories which went:

    ... people are undecided how the costs of covid should be paid, some prefer government spending increases while others prefer tax cuts ...

    It seems nobody preferred hard work.

    Ultimately after more than two decades of the UK living beyond its means the end is finally being reached with IMO three possible answers:

    1) Increased wealth creation - something which is much harder than most people and all politicians realise.

    2) A reduction of spending on imported consumer tat and foreign holidays.

    3) Increased taxes on wealth, especially property wealth.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232

    dixiedean said:

    I understand that there is a hiatus is prime ministerial power. But we are still meant to have a functioning government, aren't we? Even if major decisions can't be made, messages can still be delivered.

    The failure to put up anybody to do the media rounds this morning indicates that government isn't functioning. Even if they couldn't make major announcements, they could have done some messaging - "Ofgem announcement very concerning - we advise people to try to reduce their energy consumption" or whatever.

    The absence of government, not just on energy but on all matters, since the leadership contest started is, to be blunt, a fucking disgrace. And I think the public have noticed.

    It truely is a disgrace and Brady with his idiotic 1922 committee should hang their heads in shame, and I speak as a conservative

    Sky business saying just now the scale of this crisis dwarfs covid and projects are least 100 billion is needed for the next 12 months from central government
    "Like the Poll Tax. Just much more expensive." says Martin Lewis.
    My moneysavingexpert tip of the week. Join a nearby gym for your showers.

    A 6 minute power shower is about 3kWH or £1.50 under the new electricity price cap. Could be £3 for the following one. Most gym memberships will be fully paid for in showers!
    Gyms will be the first to the wall.
    Will probably have to use the credit card to tap in tap out of the showers!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188

    dixiedean said:

    I understand that there is a hiatus is prime ministerial power. But we are still meant to have a functioning government, aren't we? Even if major decisions can't be made, messages can still be delivered.

    The failure to put up anybody to do the media rounds this morning indicates that government isn't functioning. Even if they couldn't make major announcements, they could have done some messaging - "Ofgem announcement very concerning - we advise people to try to reduce their energy consumption" or whatever.

    The absence of government, not just on energy but on all matters, since the leadership contest started is, to be blunt, a fucking disgrace. And I think the public have noticed.

    It truely is a disgrace and Brady with his idiotic 1922 committee should hang their heads in shame, and I speak as a conservative

    Sky business saying just now the scale of this crisis dwarfs covid and projects are least 100 billion is needed for the next 12 months from central government
    "Like the Poll Tax. Just much more expensive." says Martin Lewis.
    My moneysavingexpert tip of the week. Join a nearby gym for your showers.

    A 6 minute power shower is about 3kWH or £1.50 under the new electricity price cap. Could be £3 for the following one. Most gym memberships will be fully paid for in showers!
    What's more you can sit on a bench in the weight room in your vest and shorts!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188
    Man arrested over Liverpool shooting.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    I understand that there is a hiatus is prime ministerial power. But we are still meant to have a functioning government, aren't we? Even if major decisions can't be made, messages can still be delivered.

    The failure to put up anybody to do the media rounds this morning indicates that government isn't functioning. Even if they couldn't make major announcements, they could have done some messaging - "Ofgem announcement very concerning - we advise people to try to reduce their energy consumption" or whatever.

    The absence of government, not just on energy but on all matters, since the leadership contest started is, to be blunt, a fucking disgrace. And I think the public have noticed.

    It truely is a disgrace and Brady with his idiotic 1922 committee should hang their heads in shame, and I speak as a conservative

    Sky business saying just now the scale of this crisis dwarfs covid and projects are least 100 billion is needed for the next 12 months from central government
    "Like the Poll Tax. Just much more expensive." says Martin Lewis.
    My moneysavingexpert tip of the week. Join a nearby gym for your showers.

    A 6 minute power shower is about 3kWH or £1.50 under the new electricity price cap. Could be £3 for the following one. Most gym memberships will be fully paid for in showers!
    What's more you can sit on a bench in the weight room in your vest and shorts!
    Mine has air conditioning for the 40 degree heat days too.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,587
    edited August 2022

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    I understand that there is a hiatus is prime ministerial power. But we are still meant to have a functioning government, aren't we? Even if major decisions can't be made, messages can still be delivered.

    The failure to put up anybody to do the media rounds this morning indicates that government isn't functioning. Even if they couldn't make major announcements, they could have done some messaging - "Ofgem announcement very concerning - we advise people to try to reduce their energy consumption" or whatever.

    The absence of government, not just on energy but on all matters, since the leadership contest started is, to be blunt, a fucking disgrace. And I think the public have noticed.

    It truely is a disgrace and Brady with his idiotic 1922 committee should hang their heads in shame, and I speak as a conservative

    Sky business saying just now the scale of this crisis dwarfs covid and projects are least 100 billion is needed for the next 12 months from central government
    "Like the Poll Tax. Just much more expensive." says Martin Lewis.
    My moneysavingexpert tip of the week. Join a nearby gym for your showers.

    A 6 minute power shower is about 3kWH or £1.50 under the new electricity price cap. Could be £3 for the following one. Most gym memberships will be fully paid for in showers!
    What's more you can sit on a bench in the weight room in your vest and shorts!
    Mine has air conditioning for the 40 degree heat days too.
    I always thought gyms should turn their equipment into devices that generate electricity. All those spin bikes feeding the grid. One step away from The Matrix.
  • So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2m
    This is what people are missing. Whatever people think about Liz Truss, she's not politically naive. She knows that she needs to match - or exceed - Labour's offer. And if she doesn't, fine. Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188
    What's more folk are magicking up solutions in accordance with their own hobby horses, too.
    Bloke on the radio pontificating that we could be a net exporter of energy by the early months of next year. By fracking.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,283

    kyf_100 said:

    Interesting...

    "At the moment, the price of electricity is set by the last kilowatt needed to balance the grid, currently the cost of gas by an obscene margin. The fossil tail (44pc of total power last year) is wagging the clean dog (56pc). The gains of cheaper renewables are not being passed on."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/08/25/putin-has-already-done-worst-britain-will-manage-winter-crisis/

    They really do need to be nationalised.
    in this case nationalising does nothing unless you can change the cost of energy. It's not in the power of government to control the cost of exports.

    The real risk of nationalising is governments getting invovled in an international market and countries playing beggar thy neighbour with access to energy.

    Better to support consumers (both residential and commercial), massively invest in renewables and cheaper sources of energy, including nuclear, and invest massively in efficacy (ie insulation etc)
    Behind the scenes, countries playing beggar thy neighbour with energy is exactly what is being expected. That will be the next story, once we have moved on from the price cap.

    The simple fact is that prices are astronomical because demand at present outstrips supply. That means a dramatic reduction in demand, rationing, or blackouts (or a combination of all three).

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-08-26/european-energy-crisis-listening-to-electricity-traders-is-very-very-scary

    Paywalled, but -

    "The industry’s teleconference suggests the problem is broader than just rising costs. Increasingly, the words “emergency” and “shortages” are being used, with participants focusing on when, rather than if, a crisis will hit..... .....A key concern is what happens if European countries introduce beggar-thy-neighbor policies by shutting down cross-border electricity flows, as Norway has already said it’s considering. "

    For the love of God send Ursula von der Leyen on a fact finding mission to South Georgia until this crisis is past.
    She's working on emergency legislation to stop any electricity reaching the UK from France.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232
    AlistairM said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    I understand that there is a hiatus is prime ministerial power. But we are still meant to have a functioning government, aren't we? Even if major decisions can't be made, messages can still be delivered.

    The failure to put up anybody to do the media rounds this morning indicates that government isn't functioning. Even if they couldn't make major announcements, they could have done some messaging - "Ofgem announcement very concerning - we advise people to try to reduce their energy consumption" or whatever.

    The absence of government, not just on energy but on all matters, since the leadership contest started is, to be blunt, a fucking disgrace. And I think the public have noticed.

    It truely is a disgrace and Brady with his idiotic 1922 committee should hang their heads in shame, and I speak as a conservative

    Sky business saying just now the scale of this crisis dwarfs covid and projects are least 100 billion is needed for the next 12 months from central government
    "Like the Poll Tax. Just much more expensive." says Martin Lewis.
    My moneysavingexpert tip of the week. Join a nearby gym for your showers.

    A 6 minute power shower is about 3kWH or £1.50 under the new electricity price cap. Could be £3 for the following one. Most gym memberships will be fully paid for in showers!
    What's more you can sit on a bench in the weight room in your vest and shorts!
    Mine has air conditioning for the 40 degree heat days too.
    I always thought gyms should turn their equipment into devices that generate electricity. All those spin bikes feeding the grid. One step away from The Matrix.
    https://spectrum.ieee.org/bikes-that-generate-electricity-are-making-a-comeback

    Some from 2016.....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2m
    This is what people are missing. Whatever people think about Liz Truss, she's not politically naive. She knows that she needs to match - or exceed - Labour's offer. And if she doesn't, fine. Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister.

    Which raises the question.
    Why doesn't she say so?
  • Does anyone remember a discussion here around 2015 that there was a 'secret plan' to force decreases in energy usage / carbon emissions by slowly reducing energy production capacity.

    2030 was, I very vaguely recall, when this plan was supposed to be completed by.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853

    algarkirk said:

    The hours long discussion about energy bills would be more interesting if occasionally four things were mentioned:

    1) The government has no money except our money

    2) At the moment our grandchildren's credit card has been maxed out by a combination of the banking crisis, pandemic and general uselessness

    3) The gigantic profits of wicked oil and gas pay vastly into the wicked pension funds of Joe Public

    4) Taxpayers and those hit by massive energy prices are largely the same people

    And one unasked question raised: Who exactly pays for all this free money?

    That is all true. But sometimes the cost of inaction is higher than the cost of action.

    I have called for these increased energy bills to be written off as unpayable. "But what is the cost to the energy company" people said. And that is fair, but what is the cost to the energy company of trying to collect unpayable bills?

    They are unpayable in the sense that consumers simply do not have the resources to pay them. So lets assume debt builds up and the energy company then spends money on enforcement action. Which eventually results in a payment plan where they get a fraction of the debt back.

    Unpayable bill. Plus legal and admin expenses. To recover minimal money. Then rinse and repeat for millions. So we face a huge bill even if we don't act. This is going to bankrupt half our hospitality sector and a load of shops for good measure. The economic hit of them folding needs to be added to the cost side of inaction.

    I keep pointing out that business is profit and loss. Energy company profits means other companies losses. So suggesting the energy companies take a hit this winter is only what is happening on the other side of the equation if they don't.
    The amounts involved dwarf anything "the energy companies" (assuming you mean the suppliers) can afford.
    Around 50% of UK gas supply is imported, so that is effectively outside the reach of UK government policy.

    The energy sector can certainly share some of the burden, but government is going to have to do most of the job. And we ought to assume that the supply demand imbalance will persist for two years at least in any schemes put in place.

    So far government response has been do something ad hoc to address the next three months, and hope for the best. That is not going to work over this winter.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,741

    Telegraph reporting that Crudas has 8,700 signatures for his Bring Back Boris petition.

    10K could see a constitutional crisis.

    Boris has already said he does not agree with this proposition
    The fat fuck says a lot of things...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853
    dixiedean said:

    https://twitter.com/BBCSimonJack/status/1563049671807094784

    They got this price rise accurate within £50.
    Forecasting £5,386 in January, and £6,616 in April

    It's a published algorithm. We are 70% of the way through the known figures for the January price
    rise already.
    Which reinforces how irresponsible government has been in not already formulating policy to deal with this winter's crisis.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,587

    AlistairM said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    I understand that there is a hiatus is prime ministerial power. But we are still meant to have a functioning government, aren't we? Even if major decisions can't be made, messages can still be delivered.

    The failure to put up anybody to do the media rounds this morning indicates that government isn't functioning. Even if they couldn't make major announcements, they could have done some messaging - "Ofgem announcement very concerning - we advise people to try to reduce their energy consumption" or whatever.

    The absence of government, not just on energy but on all matters, since the leadership contest started is, to be blunt, a fucking disgrace. And I think the public have noticed.

    It truely is a disgrace and Brady with his idiotic 1922 committee should hang their heads in shame, and I speak as a conservative

    Sky business saying just now the scale of this crisis dwarfs covid and projects are least 100 billion is needed for the next 12 months from central government
    "Like the Poll Tax. Just much more expensive." says Martin Lewis.
    My moneysavingexpert tip of the week. Join a nearby gym for your showers.

    A 6 minute power shower is about 3kWH or £1.50 under the new electricity price cap. Could be £3 for the following one. Most gym memberships will be fully paid for in showers!
    What's more you can sit on a bench in the weight room in your vest and shorts!
    Mine has air conditioning for the 40 degree heat days too.
    I always thought gyms should turn their equipment into devices that generate electricity. All those spin bikes feeding the grid. One step away from The Matrix.
    https://spectrum.ieee.org/bikes-that-generate-electricity-are-making-a-comeback

    Some from 2016.....
    Marginal gains. Longer term we need to get the entire population thinking about efficiency and a lot of these marginal gains can add up to making a big difference.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,545
    dixiedean said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2m
    This is what people are missing. Whatever people think about Liz Truss, she's not politically naive. She knows that she needs to match - or exceed - Labour's offer. And if she doesn't, fine. Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister.

    Which raises the question.
    Why doesn't she say so?
    She may as well, she will have the leadership sewn up already.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,167
    AlistairM said:

    AlistairM said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    I understand that there is a hiatus is prime ministerial power. But we are still meant to have a functioning government, aren't we? Even if major decisions can't be made, messages can still be delivered.

    The failure to put up anybody to do the media rounds this morning indicates that government isn't functioning. Even if they couldn't make major announcements, they could have done some messaging - "Ofgem announcement very concerning - we advise people to try to reduce their energy consumption" or whatever.

    The absence of government, not just on energy but on all matters, since the leadership contest started is, to be blunt, a fucking disgrace. And I think the public have noticed.

    It truely is a disgrace and Brady with his idiotic 1922 committee should hang their heads in shame, and I speak as a conservative

    Sky business saying just now the scale of this crisis dwarfs covid and projects are least 100 billion is needed for the next 12 months from central government
    "Like the Poll Tax. Just much more expensive." says Martin Lewis.
    My moneysavingexpert tip of the week. Join a nearby gym for your showers.

    A 6 minute power shower is about 3kWH or £1.50 under the new electricity price cap. Could be £3 for the following one. Most gym memberships will be fully paid for in showers!
    What's more you can sit on a bench in the weight room in your vest and shorts!
    Mine has air conditioning for the 40 degree heat days too.
    I always thought gyms should turn their equipment into devices that generate electricity. All those spin bikes feeding the grid. One step away from The Matrix.
    https://spectrum.ieee.org/bikes-that-generate-electricity-are-making-a-comeback

    Some from 2016.....
    Marginal gains. Longer term we need to get the entire population thinking about efficiency and a lot of these marginal gains can add up to making a big difference.
    Nothing's going to get the population thinking about efficiency like an 80% rise in the price cap.
  • So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853
    Dura_Ace said:

    Telegraph reporting that Crudas has 8,700 signatures for his Bring Back Boris petition.

    10K could see a constitutional crisis.

    Boris has already said he does not agree with this proposition
    The fat fuck says a lot of things...
    On this occasion it's probably true.

    You think he wants to take back the hospital pass ?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,741


    The only major measures that can be taken in the next few months to actually help people (and the country in general) are financial, at this point.

    The PM could ask Biden to make Ukraine agree to a ceasefire. That's a measure that could be taken.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,587
    Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2m
    This is what people are missing. Whatever people think about Liz Truss, she's not politically naive. She knows that she needs to match - or exceed - Labour's offer. And if she doesn't, fine. Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister.

    Which raises the question.
    Why doesn't she say so?
    She may as well, she will have the leadership sewn up already.
    Having a leadership election between 2 candidates taking this long is ridiculous. 3 weeks max. All the hustings are repeats of the previous one. Just get on with it so the new PM can come in and get doing something rather than nothing.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,523
    dixiedean said:

    What's more folk are magicking up solutions in accordance with their own hobby horses, too.
    Bloke on the radio pontificating that we could be a net exporter of energy by the early months of next year. By fracking.

    We should be throwing open the fracking doors as a immediate course of action.

    Stuff keep it in the ground.
  • dixiedean said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2m
    This is what people are missing. Whatever people think about Liz Truss, she's not politically naive. She knows that she needs to match - or exceed - Labour's offer. And if she doesn't, fine. Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister.

    Which raises the question.
    Why doesn't she say so?
    And why does she keep saying the exact opposite? "no bunging more money into the system". When everyone but her agrees that scores of billions of money will need to be injected into the system.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,615
    dixiedean said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2m
    This is what people are missing. Whatever people think about Liz Truss, she's not politically naive. She knows that she needs to match - or exceed - Labour's offer. And if she doesn't, fine. Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister.

    Which raises the question.
    Why doesn't she say so?
    Perhaps because she’s trying to work out how to pay for tax cuts , dumping the NI rise and then putting in Labours policy but not calling it the same thing . Collectively that will cost a huge amount and the so called fiscal headroom which was dodgy to begin with has imploded.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,283

    dixiedean said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2m
    This is what people are missing. Whatever people think about Liz Truss, she's not politically naive. She knows that she needs to match - or exceed - Labour's offer. And if she doesn't, fine. Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister.

    Which raises the question.
    Why doesn't she say so?
    And why does she keep saying the exact opposite? "no bunging more money into the system". When everyone but her agrees that scores of billions of money will need to be injected into the system.
    Why do you persist in misquoting after you've been corrected?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853
    Dura_Ace said:


    The only major measures that can be taken in the next few months to actually help people (and the country in general) are financial, at this point.

    The PM could ask Biden to make Ukraine agree to a ceasefire. That's a measure that could be taken.
    Great idea.
    Acceding to blackmail never risks a repeat of the process.
  • Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    The hours long discussion about energy bills would be more interesting if occasionally four things were mentioned:

    1) The government has no money except our money

    2) At the moment our grandchildren's credit card has been maxed out by a combination of the banking crisis, pandemic and general uselessness

    3) The gigantic profits of wicked oil and gas pay vastly into the wicked pension funds of Joe Public

    4) Taxpayers and those hit by massive energy prices are largely the same people

    And one unasked question raised: Who exactly pays for all this free money?

    That is all true. But sometimes the cost of inaction is higher than the cost of action.

    I have called for these increased energy bills to be written off as unpayable. "But what is the cost to the energy company" people said. And that is fair, but what is the cost to the energy company of trying to collect unpayable bills?

    They are unpayable in the sense that consumers simply do not have the resources to pay them. So lets assume debt builds up and the energy company then spends money on enforcement action. Which eventually results in a payment plan where they get a fraction of the debt back.

    Unpayable bill. Plus legal and admin expenses. To recover minimal money. Then rinse and repeat for millions. So we face a huge bill even if we don't act. This is going to bankrupt half our hospitality sector and a load of shops for good measure. The economic hit of them folding needs to be added to the cost side of inaction.

    I keep pointing out that business is profit and loss. Energy company profits means other companies losses. So suggesting the energy companies take a hit this winter is only what is happening on the other side of the equation if they don't.
    The amounts involved dwarf anything "the energy companies" (assuming you mean the suppliers) can afford.
    Around 50% of UK gas supply is imported, so that is effectively outside the reach of UK government policy.

    The energy sector can certainly share some of the burden, but government is going to have to do most of the job. And we ought to assume that the supply demand imbalance will persist for two years at least in any schemes put in place.

    So far government response has been do something ad hoc to address the next three months, and hope for the best. That is not going to work over this winter.
    I'm stating - not proposing - that a substantial value of bill payments will not be paid to the energy suppliers. So they are taking a hit whatever happens. The government are going to have to bung more money into the system as everyone bar Trussteam agrees, its just a question of how much, when, and in what way.

    The energy sector will end up taking a haircut - its inevitable.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188

    dixiedean said:

    What's more folk are magicking up solutions in accordance with their own hobby horses, too.
    Bloke on the radio pontificating that we could be a net exporter of energy by the early months of next year. By fracking.

    We should be throwing open the fracking doors as a immediate course of action.

    Stuff keep it in the ground.
    This may be true. But it isn't a solution. We simply don't have the reserves to even replace the North Sea going offline.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    The hours long discussion about energy bills would be more interesting if occasionally four things were mentioned:

    1) The government has no money except our money

    2) At the moment our grandchildren's credit card has been maxed out by a combination of the banking crisis, pandemic and general uselessness

    3) The gigantic profits of wicked oil and gas pay vastly into the wicked pension funds of Joe Public

    4) Taxpayers and those hit by massive energy prices are largely the same people

    And one unasked question raised: Who exactly pays for all this free money?

    That is all true. But sometimes the cost of inaction is higher than the cost of action.

    I have called for these increased energy bills to be written off as unpayable. "But what is the cost to the energy company" people said. And that is fair, but what is the cost to the energy company of trying to collect unpayable bills?

    They are unpayable in the sense that consumers simply do not have the resources to pay them. So lets assume debt builds up and the energy company then spends money on enforcement action. Which eventually results in a payment plan where they get a fraction of the debt back.

    Unpayable bill. Plus legal and admin expenses. To recover minimal money. Then rinse and repeat for millions. So we face a huge bill even if we don't act. This is going to bankrupt half our hospitality sector and a load of shops for good measure. The economic hit of them folding needs to be added to the cost side of inaction.

    I keep pointing out that business is profit and loss. Energy company profits means other companies losses. So suggesting the energy companies take a hit this winter is only what is happening on the other side of the equation if they don't.
    The amounts involved dwarf anything "the energy companies" (assuming you mean the suppliers) can afford.
    Around 50% of UK gas supply is imported, so that is effectively outside the reach of UK government policy.

    The energy sector can certainly share some of the burden, but government is going to have to do most of the job. And we ought to assume that the supply demand imbalance will persist for two years at least in any schemes put in place.

    So far government response has been do something ad hoc to address the next three months, and hope for the best. That is not going to work over this winter.
    I'm stating - not proposing - that a substantial value of bill payments will not be paid to the energy suppliers. So they are taking a hit whatever happens. The government are going to have to bung more money into the system as everyone bar Trussteam agrees, its just a question of how much, when, and in what way.

    The energy sector will end up taking a haircut - its inevitable.
    Of course.
    But unless government fully manages the process, with considerable financial inputs, that would just mean bankruptcy for a lot of the suppliers.

    There's no sign at the moment that they're thinking along those lines.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,523
    nico679 said:

    dixiedean said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2m
    This is what people are missing. Whatever people think about Liz Truss, she's not politically naive. She knows that she needs to match - or exceed - Labour's offer. And if she doesn't, fine. Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister.

    Which raises the question.
    Why doesn't she say so?
    Perhaps because she’s trying to work out how to pay for tax cuts , dumping the NI rise and then putting in Labours policy but not calling it the same thing . Collectively that will cost a huge amount and the so called fiscal headroom which was dodgy to begin with has imploded.
    Tax cuts are utterly already outdated by events. Focusing on them is utter stupidity. No one cares about an extra hundred quid a year when inflation is at 20%.
  • Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,007
    edited August 2022
    dixiedean said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    2m
    This is what people are missing. Whatever people think about Liz Truss, she's not politically naive. She knows that she needs to match - or exceed - Labour's offer. And if she doesn't, fine. Keir Starmer will be Prime Minister.

    Which raises the question.
    Why doesn't she say so?
    Its a good moment to be opposition - inflation needs one approach, recession needs opposite levers pulled, a cost of living crisis means whatever you do won’t be enough - if Truss is actually going to throw handouts at those badly impacted how far up the world of pain for so many do they draw the line and give very little?

    Truss and Kwarteng can’t give details of a plan because they don’t have one! No one has. Not even the opposition.

    Todays front pages from papers supposed supporting Truss don’t help at all, in fact by raising promise and expectations they are very bad for her - yet expect it’s Truss campaign who had engineered these front pages - she won this election weeks ago, yet still going all out to win it, pummel the dead Rishi daisy even further into the dust, rather than lower expectations and sell belt tightening.

    That’s the thing isn’t it, whoever is in power right now has to sell belt tightening, yet tgey havn’t started yet, in fact due to this campaign members vote they are doing the opposite of selling belt tightening!

    Total political mess for Tories. A 1970s Writing On The Wall moment. A sea change in UK politics [insert sewage on the tide from global Britain to EU coastline here]
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,523
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    What's more folk are magicking up solutions in accordance with their own hobby horses, too.
    Bloke on the radio pontificating that we could be a net exporter of energy by the early months of next year. By fracking.

    We should be throwing open the fracking doors as a immediate course of action.

    Stuff keep it in the ground.
    This may be true. But it isn't a solution. We simply don't have the reserves to even replace the North Sea going offline.
    It's not the solution true, but we need to work on all fronts. Fracking, north sea, renewables, nuclear all of it, all guns blazing and throw all the money in the world at it.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    The hours long discussion about energy bills would be more interesting if occasionally four things were mentioned:

    1) The government has no money except our money

    2) At the moment our grandchildren's credit card has been maxed out by a combination of the banking crisis, pandemic and general uselessness

    3) The gigantic profits of wicked oil and gas pay vastly into the wicked pension funds of Joe Public

    4) Taxpayers and those hit by massive energy prices are largely the same people

    And one unasked question raised: Who exactly pays for all this free money?

    That is all true. But sometimes the cost of inaction is higher than the cost of action.

    I have called for these increased energy bills to be written off as unpayable. "But what is the cost to the energy company" people said. And that is fair, but what is the cost to the energy company of trying to collect unpayable bills?

    They are unpayable in the sense that consumers simply do not have the resources to pay them. So lets assume debt builds up and the energy company then spends money on enforcement action. Which eventually results in a payment plan where they get a fraction of the debt back.

    Unpayable bill. Plus legal and admin expenses. To recover minimal money. Then rinse and repeat for millions. So we face a huge bill even if we don't act. This is going to bankrupt half our hospitality sector and a load of shops for good measure. The economic hit of them folding needs to be added to the cost side of inaction.

    I keep pointing out that business is profit and loss. Energy company profits means other companies losses. So suggesting the energy companies take a hit this winter is only what is happening on the other side of the equation if they don't.
    The amounts involved dwarf anything "the energy companies" (assuming you mean the suppliers) can afford.
    Around 50% of UK gas supply is imported, so that is effectively outside the reach of UK government policy.

    The energy sector can certainly share some of the burden, but government is going to have to do most of the job. And we ought to assume that the supply demand imbalance will persist for two years at least in any schemes put in place.

    So far government response has been do something ad hoc to address the next three months, and hope for the best. That is not going to work over this winter.
    I'm stating - not proposing - that a substantial value of bill payments will not be paid to the energy suppliers. So they are taking a hit whatever happens. The government are going to have to bung more money into the system as everyone bar Trussteam agrees, its just a question of how much, when, and in what way.

    The energy sector will end up taking a haircut - its inevitable.
    Of course.
    But unless government fully manages the process, with considerable financial inputs, that would just mean bankruptcy for a lot of the suppliers.

    There's no sign at the moment that they're thinking along those lines.
    Indeed. Because they refuse to accept reality. So instead of a structured controlled plan to manage the large financial hit, we will get an uncontrolled even larger financial hit.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,587
    Highest % for the economy that we have recorded.

    Which issues would most determine how Britons would vote in a General Election? (21 August)

    The Economy 67%
    Healthcare 56%
    Education 30%
    Housing 24%
    Taxation 23%
    Immigration 20%
    Welfare 20%
    The Environment 19%

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1563089325134295041

    Who are the 7% of people who are still concerned about Covid restrictions? We don't have any.
  • So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    Your second suggestion is a bit extreme methinks.

    My father - who is as liberal as anyone I know - has just sent me the reform party energy plan with a comment that government had better come up with something soon or voters could shift support very quickly.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,788
    Dura_Ace said:


    The only major measures that can be taken in the next few months to actually help people (and the country in general) are financial, at this point.

    The PM could ask Biden to make Ukraine agree to a ceasefire. That's a measure that could be taken.
    Lol
    Cat, meet pigeons.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    Came across as utterly banal platitudes.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,442
    Well, she wouldn’t want to accidentally announce a Secret Plan to Fight Inflation, West Wing style:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B_3kELe0M8A
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,844
    edited August 2022

    Dura_Ace said:


    The only major measures that can be taken in the next few months to actually help people (and the country in general) are financial, at this point.

    The PM could ask Biden to make Ukraine agree to a ceasefire. That's a measure that could be taken.
    I'm pretty sure Ukraine would be fine with a ceasefire, as soon as Russia pulls out its invading forces from its territory and stops attacking them.
    Whether you think Putin Dura is right or wrong there's no impetus for this anyway.
    The USA simply isn't suffering these astronomical energy prices, the war's incredibly cheap for them. No boots on ground, just arms supply galore. And they call the shots on this.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    AlistairM said:

    Highest % for the economy that we have recorded.

    Which issues would most determine how Britons would vote in a General Election? (21 August)

    The Economy 67%
    Healthcare 56%
    Education 30%
    Housing 24%
    Taxation 23%
    Immigration 20%
    Welfare 20%
    The Environment 19%

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1563089325134295041

    Who are the 7% of people who are still concerned about Covid restrictions? We don't have any.

    You have been away from pb for the past 48 hours?
  • dixiedean said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    Came across as utterly banal platitudes.
    I'm sure the PB Truss supplicants will be along to claim I am lying or otherwise misrepresenting her. Hence directly quoting from the article she authored.

    Saying "I will take decisive action" and then stating these will be already announced tax cuts and green levy charges scrapped and Sunak's "bungs" is not Truss unveiling a game-changing proposal.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    I think you are supposed to read it with the world view of we have a shiny new leader who tells us what we want to hear and it will surely turn out wonderfully unlike the last few times we have tried that.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    What's more folk are magicking up solutions in accordance with their own hobby horses, too.
    Bloke on the radio pontificating that we could be a net exporter of energy by the early months of next year. By fracking.

    We should be throwing open the fracking doors as a immediate course of action.

    Stuff keep it in the ground.
    This may be true. But it isn't a solution. We simply don't have the reserves to even replace the North Sea going offline.
    It's not the solution true, but we need to work on all fronts. Fracking, north sea, renewables, nuclear all of it, all guns blazing and throw all the money in the world at it.
    Agree absolutely.
    And on the other side of the ledger. An energy saving drive. With nowt off the table.
  • So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    Your second suggestion is a bit extreme methinks.

    My father - who is as liberal as anyone I know - has just sent me the reform party energy plan with a comment that government had better come up with something soon or voters could shift support very quickly.
    But think of how many inheritances there would be from the second suggestion - it would be the fulfilment of the Hyufd economic strategy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    Also from that Bloomberg article

    “To be sure, the call should focus on potential troubles ahead — it exists to anticipate and solve problems. But having listened in on multiple occasions over the last few months, I have three takeaways. First, the looming power emergency is worse than many industry executives publicly acknowledge, and a lot more dangerous than the government admits. Second, high prices are a big problem, but security of supply is at risk, too. Third, time is running out to prepare before temperatures start to drop. “

    😮
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,736
    edited August 2022

    Probably not the results GBNews was hoping for from its first foray into polling:

    Westminster VI:
    🌹LAB: 40%
    🌳CON: 26%
    🔶LDM: 11%

    Best PM:
    🌹Starmer: 41%
    🌳Truss: 22%

    🌹Starmer: 40%
    🌳Sunak: 23%

    https://www.gbnews.uk/news/brits-want-keir-starmer-to-become-prime-minister-over-both-liz-truss-and-rishi-sunak-gb-news-peoples-poll-finds/357586

    I was amused by the following at the end of that GB news report:

    When asked to give one word they associated with Liz Truss, Brits' top answer was "untrustworthy".
    Unfortunately for Ms Truss, second most popular answer was "useless", with the even less flattering "idiot" in third.


    So, the Tories are about to elect an untrustworthy, useless idiot.
  • Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,844
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Also from that Bloomberg article

    “To be sure, the call should focus on potential troubles ahead — it exists to anticipate and solve problems. But having listened in on multiple occasions over the last few months, I have three takeaways. First, the looming power emergency is worse than many industry executives publicly acknowledge, and a lot more dangerous than the government admits. Second, high prices are a big problem, but security of supply is at risk, too. Third, time is running out to prepare before temperatures start to drop. “

    😮

    I'll be honest, brownouts & a lack of supply would be best at this point. That'll save me from some potential domestic rows. The fish all died because I turned off the heaterof a brownout...
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,523
    carnforth said:

    Well, she wouldn’t want to accidentally announce a Secret Plan to Fight Inflation, West Wing style:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B_3kELe0M8A

    Ah the west wing, the greatest example of how people want the world to be, as opposed to how it actually is.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,587
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    What's more folk are magicking up solutions in accordance with their own hobby horses, too.
    Bloke on the radio pontificating that we could be a net exporter of energy by the early months of next year. By fracking.

    We should be throwing open the fracking doors as a immediate course of action.

    Stuff keep it in the ground.
    This may be true. But it isn't a solution. We simply don't have the reserves to even replace the North Sea going offline.
    It's not the solution true, but we need to work on all fronts. Fracking, north sea, renewables, nuclear all of it, all guns blazing and throw all the money in the world at it.
    Agree absolutely.
    And on the other side of the ledger. An energy saving drive. With nowt off the table.
    Yes, we need to switch to an energy efficiency and generating war-footing.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
  • Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    I expect her to tell us that she is working on a plan. "She is, she IS" I have read from you and a few others. Then she publishes a piece in the Mail and doesn't even give a hint of it, or even a "details to come here" space where it can be inserted.

    The very very BIG problem she and the Tories face is that they absolutely did need to unveil plans. And not even today, but weeks ago before this hell was unveiled.
  • Good news

    36 year old male arrested re the murder of the 9 year old in Liverpool
  • Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    But Truss has announced detailed plans- the ones she has re-announced in the Mail today. They're just hopelessly, laughably inadequate plans that benefit the richest most.

    Just because she hasn't pulled the rabbit out of her hat yet doesn't mean that there's a rabbit incoming. It's possible, likely even, that right now there is no rabbit.

    (She will have to do something eventually. But she is going out of her way to deny it.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    What's more folk are magicking up solutions in accordance with their own hobby horses, too.
    Bloke on the radio pontificating that we could be a net exporter of energy by the early months of next year. By fracking.

    We should be throwing open the fracking doors as a immediate course of action.

    Stuff keep it in the ground.
    This may be true. But it isn't a solution. We simply don't have the reserves to even replace the North Sea going offline.
    It's not the solution true, but we need to work on all fronts. Fracking, north sea, renewables, nuclear all of it, all guns blazing and throw all the money in the world at it.
    Agree absolutely.
    And on the other side of the ledger. An energy saving drive. With nowt off the table.
    There needs to be a furlough scheme for high energy consuming businesses. It would reduce consumption but also keep them in existence for spring.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,523
    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673
    Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    She has a cunning plan. More cunning than a fox appointed professor of cunning...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232
    Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    Sunak, a former chancellor, presumably intelligent, has given his plans.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    The hours long discussion about energy bills would be more interesting if occasionally four things were mentioned:

    1) The government has no money except our money

    2) At the moment our grandchildren's credit card has been maxed out by a combination of the banking crisis, pandemic and general uselessness

    3) The gigantic profits of wicked oil and gas pay vastly into the wicked pension funds of Joe Public

    4) Taxpayers and those hit by massive energy prices are largely the same people

    And one unasked question raised: Who exactly pays for all this free money?

    That is all true. But sometimes the cost of inaction is higher than the cost of action.

    I have called for these increased energy bills to be written off as unpayable. "But what is the cost to the energy company" people said. And that is fair, but what is the cost to the energy company of trying to collect unpayable bills?

    They are unpayable in the sense that consumers simply do not have the resources to pay them. So lets assume debt builds up and the energy company then spends money on enforcement action. Which eventually results in a payment plan where they get a fraction of the debt back.

    Unpayable bill. Plus legal and admin expenses. To recover minimal money. Then rinse and repeat for millions. So we face a huge bill even if we don't act. This is going to bankrupt half our hospitality sector and a load of shops for good measure. The economic hit of them folding needs to be added to the cost side of inaction.

    I keep pointing out that business is profit and loss. Energy company profits means other companies losses. So suggesting the energy companies take a hit this winter is only what is happening on the other side of the equation if they don't.
    The amounts involved dwarf anything "the energy companies" (assuming you mean the suppliers) can afford.
    Around 50% of UK gas supply is imported, so that is effectively outside the reach of UK government policy.

    The energy sector can certainly share some of the burden, but government is going to have to do most of the job. And we ought to assume that the supply demand imbalance will persist for two years at least in any schemes put in place.

    So far government response has been do something ad hoc to address the next three months, and hope for the best. That is not going to work over this winter.
    I'm stating - not proposing - that a substantial value of bill payments will not be paid to the energy suppliers. So they are taking a hit whatever happens. The government are going to have to bung more money into the system as everyone bar Trussteam agrees, its just a question of how much, when, and in what way.

    The energy sector will end up taking a haircut - its inevitable.
    Of course.
    But unless government fully manages the process, with considerable financial inputs, that would just mean bankruptcy for a lot of the suppliers.

    There's no sign at the moment that they're thinking along those lines.
    Indeed. Because they refuse to accept reality. So instead of a structured controlled plan to manage the large financial hit, we will get an uncontrolled even larger financial hit.
    During the first stages of the COVID crisis, there was anger from some businesses that the government actions had been implemented in such a way as to not trigger commercial insurance.

    It seemed to have not occurred to them that if all the insurance policies were triggered at the same time, the result would be (a) no money and (b) a collapsed insurance industry.
  • novanova Posts: 472

    Probably not the results GBNews was hoping for from its first foray into polling:

    Westminster VI:
    🌹LAB: 40%
    🌳CON: 26%
    🔶LDM: 11%

    Best PM:
    🌹Starmer: 41%
    🌳Truss: 22%

    🌹Starmer: 40%
    🌳Sunak: 23%

    https://www.gbnews.uk/news/brits-want-keir-starmer-to-become-prime-minister-over-both-liz-truss-and-rishi-sunak-gb-news-peoples-poll-finds/357586

    I love that it's called "The People's Poll".

    Does anyone know which polling company was behind it? Can't see a mention on the article, or twitter.

  • Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    I do not know or particularly understand Truss but her theme is consistent in saying she has not won the leadership

    I would also comment that if Truss does not come up with a huge relief package her premiership will be over before it starts
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    The lights are going on across Europe.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,587

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    Misty morning today in Buckinghamshire with a definite chill in the air.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,283
    @francis_scarr
    Occasionally even I am shocked by what I see on Russian state TV

    Last night Vladimir Solovyov accused Olaf Scholz of imitating "his idol" Adolf Hitler and called for missile strikes on the German military facility where Ukrainian soldiers are being trained to use Gepard tanks


    https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1563094037728337920
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    nova said:

    Probably not the results GBNews was hoping for from its first foray into polling:

    Westminster VI:
    🌹LAB: 40%
    🌳CON: 26%
    🔶LDM: 11%

    Best PM:
    🌹Starmer: 41%
    🌳Truss: 22%

    🌹Starmer: 40%
    🌳Sunak: 23%

    https://www.gbnews.uk/news/brits-want-keir-starmer-to-become-prime-minister-over-both-liz-truss-and-rishi-sunak-gb-news-peoples-poll-finds/357586

    I love that it's called "The People's Poll".

    Does anyone know which polling company was behind it? Can't see a mention on the article, or twitter.

    "The people have spoken, the bastards."
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,587
    20+ Ukrainian HIMARS & M270 & MARS.
    All remain in service.

    ***************************
    50+ russian depots with weapons and ammunition.
    Exited the game.


    https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1563093628716601344
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Probably not the results GBNews was hoping for from its first foray into polling:

    Westminster VI:
    🌹LAB: 40%
    🌳CON: 26%
    🔶LDM: 11%

    Best PM:
    🌹Starmer: 41%
    🌳Truss: 22%

    🌹Starmer: 40%
    🌳Sunak: 23%

    https://www.gbnews.uk/news/brits-want-keir-starmer-to-become-prime-minister-over-both-liz-truss-and-rishi-sunak-gb-news-peoples-poll-finds/357586

    I was amused by the following at the end of that GB news report:

    When asked to give one word they associated with Liz Truss, Brits' top answer was "untrustworthy".
    Unfortunately for Ms Truss, second most popular answer was "useless", with the even less flattering "idiot" in third.


    So, the Tories are about to elect an untrustworthy, useless idiot.
    That is very funny.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853
    edited August 2022

    @francis_scarr
    Occasionally even I am shocked by what I see on Russian state TV

    Last night Vladimir Solovyov accused Olaf Scholz of imitating "his idol" Adolf Hitler and called for missile strikes on the German military facility where Ukrainian soldiers are being trained to use Gepard tanks


    https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1563094037728337920

    That's a step back from the nuclear strikes he keeps calling for.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    edited August 2022

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    But Truss has announced detailed plans- the ones she has re-announced in the Mail today. They're just hopelessly, laughably inadequate plans that benefit the richest most.

    Just because she hasn't pulled the rabbit out of her hat yet doesn't mean that there's a rabbit incoming. It's possible, likely even, that right now there is no rabbit.

    (She will have to do something eventually. But she is going out of her way to deny it.)
    She wants a poll boost at the optimum time: as she takes office

    I agree with you that she will have to do SOMETHING. Once you sit down and extrapolate what this all means, it is pretty scary. A cascade effect of demand destruction: as businesses close (temporarily, then for good), workers stay home (knackering town centres again), so more businesses close…

    We could see a Covid style 5-10% drop in GDP across Europe - and elsewhere

    And this time there won’t be a rapid bounce back with a vaccine

    So governments that are able to do so, will borrow money to help citizens and firms. Debt will surge again. What else can they do in the short term?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,232
    edited August 2022
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    She has a cunning plan. More cunning than a fox appointed professor of cunning...
    Are you saying Liz Truss is Foxy?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,853

    Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    I do not know or particularly understand Truss but her theme is consistent in saying she has not won the leadership

    I would also comment that if Truss does not come up with a huge relief package her premiership will be over before it starts
    On that we agree.
    But it wouldn't do much for the governance of the country.
  • dixiedean said:

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    The lights are going on across Europe.
    Just listened on BBC to a report from Germany that says the way their energy works there is a delay in rising prices but it will be as bad as the UK and even a 200% increase is possible

    He also said Germany was not in favour of windfall taxes
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,337
    edited August 2022
    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    I do not know or particularly understand Truss but her theme is consistent in saying she has not won the leadership

    I would also comment that if Truss does not come up with a huge relief package her premiership will be over before it starts
    On that we agree.
    But it wouldn't do much for the governance of the country.
    On that we agree as well
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188

    dixiedean said:

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    The lights are going on across Europe.
    Just listened on BBC to a report from Germany that says the way their energy works there is a delay in rising prices but it will be as bad as the UK and even a 200% increase is possible

    He also said Germany was not in favour of windfall taxes
    The estimate for the 18 months Oct 21 to Apr 23 in the UK is for a c.500% increase.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,545
    AlistairM said:

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    Misty morning today in Buckinghamshire with a definite chill in the air.
    Definitely chilly in the morning now, dew on the ground and condensation on the cars.

    It's going to be a long winter and we haven't even left summer.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,645
    One for Dura_Ace:

    https://twitter.com/OleksandrKolym/status/1562839937786908673

    It's incredible flying, but I bet it's the sort of thing that'll go terribly wrong if you do it enough times...
  • Nigelb said:

    Her plan as written in the Mail:
    1. "I will ensure support is on its way and we get through these tough times"
    2. "My immediate priority will be to put more money back in people’s pockets by cutting taxes, such as reversing the rise in national insurance."
    3. "I would also suspend the green levy on energy bills, bringing down average energy bills by £153."
    4. "This will build on the work already underway, such as the Energy Bills Support Scheme, which will see a £400 discount paid to consumers from October, and the £1,200 package of support for the most vulnerable."

    So literally nothing new. She says "I will take decisive action on entering No 10 to provide immediate support" which she then details as tax cuts. Whilst I am sure she will eventually be forced into more, if she has a big bold plan there is literally no mention of it here.
    For someone as intelligent as yourself I am surprised that you continue to expect her to announce detailed plans before she takes office a week on Tuesday
    She's keeping her brilliant strategy to solve the crisis secret for what reason exactly ?
    I do not know or particularly understand Truss but her theme is consistent in saying she has not won the leadership

    I would also comment that if Truss does not come up with a huge relief package her premiership will be over before it starts
    Your latter sentence being the point I and others are making.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,545

    dixiedean said:

    Just to point out. I'm noticing the weather starting to change already. A bit of dew on the ground, a bit of mist in the air, a bit of condensation on the car last night.

    The seasons are starting to turn already.

    The lights are going on across Europe.
    Just listened on BBC to a report from Germany that says the way their energy works there is a delay in rising prices but it will be as bad as the UK and even a 200% increase is possible

    He also said Germany was not in favour of windfall taxes
    In the UK people always favour taxes that fall on others and not themselves.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    Morning all.
    Re 'plan coming'. Its because there HAS to be, right? I mean id expect Peter Bone to get it if he were PM or Michael bloody Fabricant.
    The other option is shes triumphantly championing £153 a year 'levy savings' and NI cuts on the day the cap for average bills went up nearly 2 grand.
    10 days till old lady announces
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,587

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    So PB Brains Trust. Do we agree that the forecast fuel bills levels are unsustainable politically for the government? What options do they have since they cannot magic new generation capacity or gas supply sources in time for the coming winter? Short term actions: Price capping per unit with the difference paid by government borrowing? Force majeure stopping North Sea gas exports from the UK? Long term actions: Orders in council to start mass fracking pilots with protesting made illegal? Ordering micro nuke pilot plants? Building Swansea Bay tidal lagoons?

    What would you do?

    Encourage all the oldies to spend the winter in another country.

    Knock all the decrepit oldies on the head - thus solving NHS and care crises as well.

    Ban / tax outside Christmas illuminations.
    In 1960 5% of UK homes had central heating vs 95% now. The oldies will be fine. And I am a lot happier to Freeze For Ukraine than I ever was to Clap For Carers.
    Or double glazing.

    I remember the condensation puddles on window sills every winter morning.
    For me it was frozen condensation on the window panes in the morning.
    I remember those days well and getting dressed under the bed blankets (we did not have duvets in those days)
    Unfortunately your are in a small minority of people who remember that sort of thing. We have become quite soft. We may need to prioritise who gets support - elderly and those with babies first. Those between 15 and 50 may need to start getting dressed in bed again!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,188
    2 hour phone in on this on R5L.
    No Conservative spokesperson available.
  • Now I am no particular fan of Polly Toynbee, but her column today is instructive in the purity of ideology that is driving the current Tory Party, perhaps most accurately espoused on here by Barty.

    I think it's worth quoting at length:

    Let’s look into the mind of an ardent Trussite... No one is ever typical, but he (who preferred anonymity) fits the broad profile of those 160,000 Tory members, being a southerner in later middle age. He’s a senior member of Liz Truss’s grassroots campaign team, closely plugged into the party he has served for decades.

    He dismisses Sunak as “a sleek PR product”. But, as an old hand at elections, doesn’t he worry that Truss’s economic stance is rebarbative to ordinary voters? When polls show people want more windfalls on profiteering utilities, subsidies for unpayable bills and a rescue for the NHS, her tax cutting and state shrinking looks out of kilter with the times. Her low offer sounds out of touch with half the population crippled by energy prices. “People will always want a handout,” he says. “But they don’t want to pay for it. She will stand firm to her principles.”

    ...The party of pragmatism and successful pursuit of power has turned ideological. That’s what he admires in her. “No more of the Cameron-Blair, focus-group-and-marketing approach to politics,” he says. Instead, “People want a clear red-blue choice. Look, I’ve nothing in common with Corbyn, but people saw something in him, inspiring new people.” He’s even an admirer of Tony Benn, “a leftwing libertarian”...

    “You wait and see,” he goes on. “She’ll become an outstanding leader, she’ll flower and bloom in office. Remember Margaret Thatcher wasn’t popular at first.” He wants politicians who “don’t shift their own policies, but shift public opinion”...

    Truss will step into a tornado of crises, strikes and severe shortages armed only with tax cuts that favour the well-off, so most commentators expect her to pivot towards the public. “I hope not!” he answers sharply. But what if her policies aren’t deliverable? “Properly targeted tax cuts will inject energy into the economy.” He wants privatised utilities to work better, but adds: “We believe in free markets.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/26/liz-truss-biggest-fan-tory-party-ideology-above-general-election

    A very brave approach given today's headlines.

    I was talking to my other half earlier - I suppose I must do so every now and again. She was saying that she's picking up from Facebook - a hellscape I happily avoid - that the scale of the challenge of this winter is gradually percolating down to people round here. People are very, very, very worried. And they're starting to ask what the government is doing. And the collective opinion currently is 'not a lot'.

    If Truss and her team are as resolute as Toynbee thinks, there is going to be a very interesting collision between ideology and reality.
This discussion has been closed.