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Trump back as favourite to win WH2014 – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,264
    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,993
    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,054
    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    When did Nigel Farage give it a rest these past 30 years. Or the Labour Party these past 12 years.

    Unlike @HYUFD many people don't give up or switch their political beliefs because the other side won.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,594
    kyf_100 said:

    Taz said:

    rcs1000 said:

    From the 2016 Democratic Primaries:


    I'm with Hillary.

    Creep was fifth on my Spotify Top Songs of 2021.

    Only behind "The Seeker", "Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep", "All the Young Dudes" and "Layla"

    Creep is THAT good.
    Creep is just "The air that I breathe" with different lyrics.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaXFc4Zb78s

    Love that track. Tony Hicks guitar work on it is bang on.

  • TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    When did Nigel Farage give it a rest these past 30 years. Or the Labour Party these past 12 years.

    Unlike @HYUFD many people don't give up or switch their political beliefs because the other side won.
    Besides. As with the stubborn refusal of many Britons to embrace their new future, the complaint in the Telegraph that we're not seeing the hoped-for benefits is of interest.

    Not because we're going to recant tomorrow, but because it tells us something about the mood of the public. And at a time when there's not much pro-Euro campaigning happening. Scott posting snippets on a web forum doesn't count.

    That all has political consequences, even if it's not clear what they are.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,738
    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148
    ydoethur said:

    Another ammunition depot hit inside Russia.

    https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1560322642888081411

    Which will leave Russia with an awkward question if they do do something stupid:

    Why, if they were mad enough to do such a thing, would the Ukrainians hit one of their own nuclear power plants instead of a Russian one?
    This is the bunch who claimed that when an apartment block was blown up in Moscow (excuse for the Chechen war), the previous arrest of FSB guys in the basement of the block with explosives was a coincidence. They'd been running anti-terrorism drills....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,879

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148

    ydoethur said:

    With respect to Liz Cheney's landslide defeat in Wyoming primary - by larger margin than polling had suggested - some thoughts:

    > Essentially two kinds of Republican/conservative voters in WY pissed off by Cheney's dissing (to put it mildly) of Trump:
    1. True Trumpist believers and similar dyed-in-the-wool Putinist allies and/or chumps
    2. GOP & conservative independents less wedded to Trump personally & ideologically BUT who recognize & respect clout of him AND his defenders, suckups, fellow-travelers, etc., etc. within the Republican Party, esp IF GOP can regain control of even half of Congress

    Obvious how Cheney ran afoul of first group. What messed her up with the second, was fact that her break with Trump got her tossed out of US House GOP leadership and otherwise destroyed her influence with Republican politicos, activists, funders and (most) reliably Republican voters.

    PLUS fact that Cheney lacked a true grass-roots base within Wyoming, having risen fast & somewhat furiously (in view of some GOP rivals) politically by drafting onto her big-shot (local AND DC) Big Daddy Cheney to boost her into the Republican governmental establishment.

    Once the basis of her Beltway GOP establishment credentials were shredded by her own post-January 2021 patriotism, only thing she had to fall back on was nostalgia, old family retainers & the like, and Democrats.

    Liz Cheney was an obvious goner months before the 2022 Wyoming primary. What drove her rejection by the voters to epic proportions, was her disconnect from what most folks in the Equality State consider their vital, critical and greatly endangered (in particular by Democrats) economic interests, namely coal, gas and oil.

    In short, like the Tories during the Great Reform Act 'riding the tiger' of the middle classes
    Eh?
    Did they not do that? Don't tell me the one thing I managed to retain from A level history is wrong.
    Cheney thought that ignoring the tiger and/or walking it with a stick was the way to go.

    I would say that the Tories were not so much 'riding the tiger' as bringing the Tiger into their coalition. Tory Democracy and all that (though that was actually *said* later).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,308
    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    Since largely the same people will be involved in the next government, it's hard to see that there will be any improvement in the situation!

    And good morning one and all! Bright but cooler here.
  • Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Looking at their admissions page, they are a state school, but seem to be an independent selective sixth form college; so you need A's or B's at GCSE and to pass an interview to get in.
    A bit like a 'grammar school'.

    https://www.bramptoncollege.com/admissions/
    Not really like a grammar school. I think a lot of sixth form colleges (and even sixth forms in schools) are selective; perhaps this one more than most.

    But yes, if you filter out pupils who do not want to be in school at all, and then pick the most academic of those, the sausage is halfway made but it is still doing something right if it scores more Oxbridge places than Eton.

    Aggressive targeting, perhaps. One chap once told me he got people through DofE awards by carefully tailoring programmes to people rather than sending massive cohorts through one-size-fits-all expeditions.

    And the power of example. The kids can see what is possible if it has been done before. No longer is there a sense that university is "not for the likes of us".
    I am not sure I agree - it seems like the success of this arrangement is very closely connected to the principle of selective education, which is the same principle that drives grammar schools; and it is what left leaning middle class people often object to. Brampton College provides a dilemma for them, because the beneficiaries of the system are overwhelmingly poor people, many of whom appear to be non white and from an immigrant background.

    Somewhere like Peter Symonds College in Winchester typically applies a 5 C's at GCSE admission policy, and gets very good Oxbridge offers, something like 60 in an average year. But it is in an affluent area with very high house prices (Winchester).



    I don’t know whether Peter Symonds still offers boarding but they used to have boarding as well as a lot of locals who put up students as lodgers which increased the catchment.

    A lot of students went there from public schools for sixth form for a variety of reasons - it was better, and rightfully had the reputation, than their private schools at getting students into top universities, the students wanted a transition between boarding school life and university life, they had been asked to leave their private schools once GCSEs were done…

    Most of the people I knew there were from wealthy families and it was a back door to top universities. Very good school and if you think that Oxbridge etc are actively reducing places offered to public schools then a very good switcheroo to send your kids there for sixth form after three years elsewhere.
    I went to Peter Symonds. The boarders
    were almost entirely children of the military, rather than other parts of the country. Some
    were children from local authority care. The vast majority of the intake was from the
    feeder Comprehensives, of which there were 5.

    I don't think the intake has changed much
    since my day.
    Maybe I knew the Symmonds people in a freak period but had friends there from the comprehensive feeders but also a good number of “The Hon xxxx xxxxxx” and A lot of ex Radley, charterhouse, and similar. Not a massive proportion but not negligible.

    Winchester is certainly a posh area, but when my sibs and I were there, I don't recall there being many from private schools. Most were fairly ordinary middle class folk. It is much more of a London commuter town now, but when I have been back to visit, not greatly different demographics

    Almost everyone (including us) came from the feeder Comprehensives locally. There were a couple from private schools, but no one that I knew had a title etc.
    Big IBM presence down that way, isn't there?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,863
    edited August 2022
    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Returning from my evening walk, I see the cost of a litre of unleaded at my local Tesco's is back down to 166.9p.

    A significant fall (25p) from the peak value in June but still well above where it was at the beginning of the year, let alone this time last year.

    Looking at oil prices, WTI is around $90 per barrel and Brent Crude at $96 per barrel which takes us back to just before Putin's invasion of Ukraine but well in front of this time last year when a barrel of Brent Crude went for just under $70 so effectively a one third increase in 12 months so it's not surprising it's hurting.

    Yes, it's off its highs of March and June when Brent Crude traded above $120 per barrel.

    What are we seeing? Has additional supply come on stream from Saudi and others to balance the apparent (though not I suspect actual) absence of Russian oil or are we seeing a reversion to a "new normality" as the conflict in the Ukraine seems to have reached a stalemate with neither side winning nor losing at this point.

    Is there a possibility we are also seeing a fall off in demand - I'm reminded in 2008 oil prices (and petrol prices) surged in the spring before collapsing spectacularly with the loss of Lehman Brothers and the worldwide slowdown. We saw another demand-led collapse in the spring of 2020 but for very different reasons.

    The question is whether OPEC and others will try to cut supply to keep prices up - as we've seen Saudi isn't doing badly out of the new higher oil prices and neither are firms like Saudi Aramco. If there's a thought prices could be softening I wonder if we'll see a slight contraction in supply.

    The economic and political impact of higher oil prices are well known - the oil price spike of 1973-74 dominated the 1970s and signalled the end of the post-war Butskellite concensus and the dawn of Thatcherism. As to what will happen if $100 per barrel oil is here to stay, I'm not sure. The energy crisis, like housing, is multi-faceted and nuanced and defies simple or simplistic solutions.

    The provision of energy is one thing - the provision and cost of fuel is another - not unrelated but the connections go right through the economy and society.

    Another other thing that is happening, is that some countries have moved to buying Russian oil at a steep discount. It has taken a bit of time to move the tankers etc, but the oil they would formerly have been buying is now going to customers (Europe etc) who have embargoed Russia.

    This, by itself, doesn't replace the original Russian exports (they are massively down) but it is a factor.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,863

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Returning from my evening walk, I see the cost of a litre of unleaded at my local Tesco's is back down to 166.9p.

    A significant fall (25p) from the peak value in June but still well above where it was at the beginning of the year, let alone this time last year.

    Looking at oil prices, WTI is around $90 per barrel and Brent Crude at $96 per barrel which takes us back to just before Putin's invasion of Ukraine but well in front of this time last year when a barrel of Brent Crude went for just under $70 so effectively a one third increase in 12 months so it's not surprising it's hurting.

    Yes, it's off its highs of March and June when Brent Crude traded above $120 per barrel.

    What are we seeing? Has additional supply come on stream from Saudi and others to balance the apparent (though not I suspect actual) absence of Russian oil or are we seeing a reversion to a "new normality" as the conflict in the Ukraine seems to have reached a stalemate with neither side winning nor losing at this point.

    Is there a possibility we are also seeing a fall off in demand - I'm reminded in 2008 oil prices (and petrol prices) surged in the spring before collapsing spectacularly with the loss of Lehman Brothers and the worldwide slowdown. We saw another demand-led collapse in the spring of 2020 but for very different reasons.

    The question is whether OPEC and others will try to cut supply to keep prices up - as we've seen Saudi isn't doing badly out of the new higher oil prices and neither are firms like Saudi Aramco. If there's a thought prices could be softening I wonder if we'll see a slight contraction in supply.

    The economic and political impact of higher oil prices are well known - the oil price spike of 1973-74 dominated the 1970s and signalled the end of the post-war Butskellite concensus and the dawn of Thatcherism. As to what will happen if $100 per barrel oil is here to stay, I'm not sure. The energy crisis, like housing, is multi-faceted and nuanced and defies simple or simplistic solutions.

    The provision of energy is one thing - the provision and cost of fuel is another - not unrelated but the connections go right through the economy and society.

    Another other thing that is happening, is that some countries have moved to buying Russian oil at a steep discount. It has taken a bit of time to move the tankers etc, but the oil they would formerly have been buying is now going to customers (Europe etc) who have embargoed Russia.

    This, by itself, doesn't replace the original Russian exports (they are massively down) but it is a factor.
    The oil issue is over, it's the gas which is a problem.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148
    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148
    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Returning from my evening walk, I see the cost of a litre of unleaded at my local Tesco's is back down to 166.9p.

    A significant fall (25p) from the peak value in June but still well above where it was at the beginning of the year, let alone this time last year.

    Looking at oil prices, WTI is around $90 per barrel and Brent Crude at $96 per barrel which takes us back to just before Putin's invasion of Ukraine but well in front of this time last year when a barrel of Brent Crude went for just under $70 so effectively a one third increase in 12 months so it's not surprising it's hurting.

    Yes, it's off its highs of March and June when Brent Crude traded above $120 per barrel.

    What are we seeing? Has additional supply come on stream from Saudi and others to balance the apparent (though not I suspect actual) absence of Russian oil or are we seeing a reversion to a "new normality" as the conflict in the Ukraine seems to have reached a stalemate with neither side winning nor losing at this point.

    Is there a possibility we are also seeing a fall off in demand - I'm reminded in 2008 oil prices (and petrol prices) surged in the spring before collapsing spectacularly with the loss of Lehman Brothers and the worldwide slowdown. We saw another demand-led collapse in the spring of 2020 but for very different reasons.

    The question is whether OPEC and others will try to cut supply to keep prices up - as we've seen Saudi isn't doing badly out of the new higher oil prices and neither are firms like Saudi Aramco. If there's a thought prices could be softening I wonder if we'll see a slight contraction in supply.

    The economic and political impact of higher oil prices are well known - the oil price spike of 1973-74 dominated the 1970s and signalled the end of the post-war Butskellite concensus and the dawn of Thatcherism. As to what will happen if $100 per barrel oil is here to stay, I'm not sure. The energy crisis, like housing, is multi-faceted and nuanced and defies simple or simplistic solutions.

    The provision of energy is one thing - the provision and cost of fuel is another - not unrelated but the connections go right through the economy and society.

    Another other thing that is happening, is that some countries have moved to buying Russian oil at a steep discount. It has taken a bit of time to move the tankers etc, but the oil they would formerly have been buying is now going to customers (Europe etc) who have embargoed Russia.

    This, by itself, doesn't replace the original Russian exports (they are massively down) but it is a factor.
    The oil issue is over, it's the gas which is a problem.
    Yes (for a 85% yes)

    There is some fun - like the shit oil tankers that have been kicked back into service.

    Invest in South Korean (and other shipyards) who build LNG tankers. They are working 3 shifts to build and refit tankers.

    Also people who make LNG train equipment - liquefaction and regasification sides both, but especially regasification.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,792

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148
    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Wrong methods - they are are filtering out, due to strong demand on entry, those with low GCSEs, for 6th form.

  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,738
    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Sure, I get the pragmatic stuff and I see that we agree. So my question to you is this: would you still want to rejoin with no financial rebate and on condition that we abandon our currency? I suspect you will say no - but I'm convinced that those who have a peculiar IMO fetish for the EU would rejoin at any cost.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
    Then it will never end
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,810

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    The French were actually very interested in the design at one point. The UK carriers are almost the anti-Charles De Gaulle.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,054

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    If you want to make an omelette, Big G...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Looking at their admissions page, they are a state school, but seem to be an independent selective sixth form college; so you need A's or B's at GCSE and to pass an interview to get in.
    A bit like a 'grammar school'.

    https://www.bramptoncollege.com/admissions/
    Not really like a grammar school. I think a lot of sixth form colleges (and even sixth forms in schools) are selective; perhaps this one more than most.

    But yes, if you filter out pupils who do not want to be in school at all, and then pick the most academic of those, the sausage is halfway made but it is still doing something right if it scores more Oxbridge places than Eton.

    Aggressive targeting, perhaps. One chap once told me he got people through DofE awards by carefully tailoring programmes to people rather than sending massive cohorts through one-size-fits-all expeditions.

    And the power of example. The kids can see what is possible if it has been done before. No longer is there a sense that university is "not for the likes of us".
    I am not sure I agree - it seems like the success of this arrangement is very closely connected to the principle of selective education, which is the same principle that drives grammar schools; and it is what left leaning middle class people often object to. Brampton College provides a dilemma for them, because the beneficiaries of the system are overwhelmingly poor people, many of whom appear to be non white and from an immigrant background.

    Somewhere like Peter Symonds College in Winchester typically applies a 5 C's at GCSE admission policy, and gets very good Oxbridge offers, something like 60 in an average year. But it is in an affluent area with very high house prices (Winchester).

    Sure.
    But somewhere like Greenhead College in Kirklees, which is neither in an affluent area nor selective, also gets very good results.

    Well run large sixth form colleges work.

    Shame that the government's administration methods, funding structure and tax policies are making them pretty well unviable then.
    Agreed.
    The funding pressures on them are utterly absurd.

    What makes it even more stupid is that helping 6th form colleges would be an easy win for a government, since you would see demonstrable positive results within the parliamentary electoral timescale.
    Trying to do that for the entire primary and secondary systems is much tougher, given how long it takes for a given cohort to progress all the way through.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,863
    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Sure, I get the pragmatic stuff and I see that we agree. So my question to you is this: would you still want to rejoin with no financial rebate and on condition that we abandon our currency? I suspect you will say no - but I'm convinced that those who have a peculiar IMO fetish for the EU would rejoin at any cost.
    I'm a practical man, & yes I believe the benefits would outweigh the costs. One thing, in the short-medium term interest rates would likely be lower for mortgage holders in the UK.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,738
    edited August 2022

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    Couple of things to consider- I hope in a spirit of reaching out.

    First is that it's possible to be attached to different circles without compromising attachment to any of them. A town, a county, a nation, a continent. Multiple flags together. There's something odd about the nationalism of Britain-led-by-England that struggles with that. We see it in attitudes to Scotland and Europe. So it is possible to feel fully British, and fully European. It's not about living one and hating the other, or it shouldn't be, anyway.

    Secondly, I do have a sense that Brexit only works as a something for nothing, cake and eat it thing. There was an assumption that the reason Europe wasn't fully congenial for the UK is because it was someone's fault, rather than the inevitable give and take of getting along with others.

    Finally, and the Biggie for me. The assumption that the decisions the UK took 2016-9 have to be irreversible for ever. You see it in the "why don't people get with the program" comments here, or the way some posters here get utterly triggered by the idea that their great victory might not be permanent. That Brexit must never be killed- that it's a person, not a policy.

    In a democracy, questioning past decisions is what we do. In terms of good government, it's a more important part of the process that making decisions by majority vote.
    The psychology of some goes way beyond questioning past decisions - that's my point. We are fully British and fully European whether or not we are in the EU.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,054
    edited August 2022
    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Sure, I get the pragmatic stuff and I see that we agree. So my question to you is this: would you still want to rejoin with no financial rebate and on condition that we abandon our currency? I suspect you will say no - but I'm convinced that those who have a peculiar IMO fetish for the EU would rejoin at any cost.
    You will find it amazing to hear that even in 2019 there were millions of people who were prepared to vote Labour with an acknowledged bonkers economic plan. The desire for one political outcome over another doesn't have to conform to your expectations or parameters.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148
    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,322
    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    Well May was a pragmatic remainer, Johnson a remainer who chose leave for tactical reasons, and Truss an enthusiastic remainer. Maybe what Brexit needs is a true believer, like, err Sunak?

    But for some reason leavers have decided he is the remainer not Truss.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,322

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    To be fair it does make it easier for better universities to select the middle class kids, as can go on non exam criteria if they all get similar results. Is that not the whole point of the charade?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,738

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    Well May was a pragmatic remainer, Johnson a remainer who chose leave for tactical reasons, and Truss an enthusiastic remainer. Maybe what Brexit needs is a true believer, like, err Sunak?

    But for some reason leavers have decided he is the remainer not Truss.
    I was listening to Francois on a podcast the other day. He is OK with either as leader but explained that he favoured Truss because he thinks she is more likely to sort the NI stuff out.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    edited August 2022

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    The French were actually very interested in the design at one point. The UK carriers are almost the anti-Charles De Gaulle.
    Personally I think they were intended for a future EU Naval merger anyway. I don't believe that will happen now, but I see no reason not to let them have it if it could sort all the trade issues out. I'd even through in a bottle of ENGLISH FIZZ for the re-christening of the EUSS Jacque Delors.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,322
    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    Well May was a pragmatic remainer, Johnson a remainer who chose leave for tactical reasons, and Truss an enthusiastic remainer. Maybe what Brexit needs is a true believer, like, err Sunak?

    But for some reason leavers have decided he is the remainer not Truss.
    I was listening to Francois on a podcast the other day. He is OK with either as leader but explained that he favoured Truss because he thinks she is more likely to sort the NI stuff out.
    Ha, does the cunning plan involve shouting loudly at the French how unreasonable they are until they back down perchance?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    Well May was a pragmatic remainer, Johnson a remainer who chose leave for tactical reasons, and Truss an enthusiastic remainer. Maybe what Brexit needs is a true believer, like, err Sunak?

    But for some reason leavers have decided he is the remainer not Truss.
    An excellent summary of the bonkers land formerly known as the Conservative Party.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,738

    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    Well May was a pragmatic remainer, Johnson a remainer who chose leave for tactical reasons, and Truss an enthusiastic remainer. Maybe what Brexit needs is a true believer, like, err Sunak?

    But for some reason leavers have decided he is the remainer not Truss.
    I was listening to Francois on a podcast the other day. He is OK with either as leader but explained that he favoured Truss because he thinks she is more likely to sort the NI stuff out.
    Ha, does the cunning plan involve shouting loudly at the French how unreasonable they are until they back down perchance?
    Probably.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,863
    edited August 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Sure, I get the pragmatic stuff and I see that we agree. So my question to you is this: would you still want to rejoin with no financial rebate and on condition that we abandon our currency? I suspect you will say no - but I'm convinced that those who have a peculiar IMO fetish for the EU would rejoin at any cost.
    I'm a practical man, & yes I believe the benefits would outweigh the costs. One thing, in the short-medium term interest rates would likely be lower for mortgage holders in the UK.
    I mean I know it's a nation in very different position to the UK, but look at Orban/Hungary - he hardly agrees with the broad soft left social direction that is massively the EU consensus but at the end of the day Hungary aren't leaving - he knows where his bread is buttered.
    It's a bit different but Turkey and NATO is another intensely practical relationship with no real "values" concern.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    The French were actually very interested in the design at one point. The UK carriers are almost the anti-Charles De Gaulle.
    The big screw-up was the decision not to put ‘cats and traps’ on the carriers, thus limiting the range of aircraft that can fly from them to those which can make a vertical landing.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,993
    Pulpstar said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Returning from my evening walk, I see the cost of a litre of unleaded at my local Tesco's is back down to 166.9p.

    A significant fall (25p) from the peak value in June but still well above where it was at the beginning of the year, let alone this time last year.

    Looking at oil prices, WTI is around $90 per barrel and Brent Crude at $96 per barrel which takes us back to just before Putin's invasion of Ukraine but well in front of this time last year when a barrel of Brent Crude went for just under $70 so effectively a one third increase in 12 months so it's not surprising it's hurting.

    Yes, it's off its highs of March and June when Brent Crude traded above $120 per barrel.

    What are we seeing? Has additional supply come on stream from Saudi and others to balance the apparent (though not I suspect actual) absence of Russian oil or are we seeing a reversion to a "new normality" as the conflict in the Ukraine seems to have reached a stalemate with neither side winning nor losing at this point.

    Is there a possibility we are also seeing a fall off in demand - I'm reminded in 2008 oil prices (and petrol prices) surged in the spring before collapsing spectacularly with the loss of Lehman Brothers and the worldwide slowdown. We saw another demand-led collapse in the spring of 2020 but for very different reasons.

    The question is whether OPEC and others will try to cut supply to keep prices up - as we've seen Saudi isn't doing badly out of the new higher oil prices and neither are firms like Saudi Aramco. If there's a thought prices could be softening I wonder if we'll see a slight contraction in supply.

    The economic and political impact of higher oil prices are well known - the oil price spike of 1973-74 dominated the 1970s and signalled the end of the post-war Butskellite concensus and the dawn of Thatcherism. As to what will happen if $100 per barrel oil is here to stay, I'm not sure. The energy crisis, like housing, is multi-faceted and nuanced and defies simple or simplistic solutions.

    The provision of energy is one thing - the provision and cost of fuel is another - not unrelated but the connections go right through the economy and society.

    Another other thing that is happening, is that some countries have moved to buying Russian oil at a steep discount. It has taken a bit of time to move the tankers etc, but the oil they would formerly have been buying is now going to customers (Europe etc) who have embargoed Russia.

    This, by itself, doesn't replace the original Russian exports (they are massively down) but it is a factor.
    The oil issue is over, it's the gas which is a
    problem.
    Russia’s crude oil production is very slightly down but it’s exporting more today than it did before the war and sanctions. In short Russian barrels have not been lost to the world market. What has been lost is its refining capacity, with its exports of refined products such as diesel quite sharply down.

    Overall since covid began, some estimate that the world has lost 3 million barrels a day of refining capacity. This translated into record high crack spreads (the cost of a barrel of diesel/gasoline/jet vs a barrel of crude), up 10x at one point. The Ukraine war made worse an already existing problem, with underinvestment in the sector starting to bite.

    Crude prices never quite did what they threatened to do in Feb for two reasons. Firstly the Greeks vetoed the shipping ban on Russian oil, which meant it found new markets in India, the Middle East and to a lesser extent China. And secondly, Xi Jinping’s covid mania and associated lockdowns took out a major buyer of seaborne crude. The Chinese economy tanked at the moment of maximum danger from the perspective of keeping crude prices reasonable.

    We’re now seeing European crack spreads contract and crude prices fall simultaneously, as the market prices in global recession. The reason why your petrol prices are still quite high (but off the peak) is because a) crack spreads are still not back to normal, b) FED induced USD appreciation means in Sterling or euro terms oil is still up around a quarter to a third.

    The oil sanctions as written really are self defeating. Because we’re all still using Russian crude, we’re just letting the Indians and Arabs make supernormal profits from refining it for us. In turn as crack spreads reach a potentially perilous state in 2023, we run the risk of putting European based refiners out of business from imports from those nations, that are still paying Putin for Urals crude but at what will likely still be a sharp discount vs the global oil price. I’ll wager that by next summer there will be at least one but probably two uk based refineries going bust.

    Had we tied down shipping sanctions and secondary energy sanctions on any country still importing Urals, there was a prize of depriving Putin of his major source of foreign currency. It would also have permanently weakened Russia, given the technical difficulty of bringing much of any shuttered production back online in the future. The cost of course was permanently higher oil prices. Politicians blinked.

  • Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Looking at their admissions page, they are a state school, but seem to be an independent selective sixth form college; so you need A's or B's at GCSE and to pass an interview to get in.
    A bit like a 'grammar school'.

    https://www.bramptoncollege.com/admissions/
    Not really like a grammar school. I think a lot of sixth form colleges (and even sixth forms in schools) are selective; perhaps this one more than most.

    But yes, if you filter out pupils who do not want to be in school at all, and then pick the most academic of those, the sausage is halfway made but it is still doing something right if it scores more Oxbridge places than Eton.

    Aggressive targeting, perhaps. One chap once told me he got people through DofE awards by carefully tailoring programmes to people rather than sending massive cohorts through one-size-fits-all expeditions.

    And the power of example. The kids can see what is possible if it has been done before. No longer is there a sense that university is "not for the likes of us".
    I am not sure I agree - it seems like the success of this arrangement is very closely connected to the principle of selective education, which is the same principle that drives grammar schools; and it is what left leaning middle class people often object to. Brampton College provides a dilemma for them, because the beneficiaries of the system are overwhelmingly poor people, many of whom appear to be non white and from an immigrant background.

    Somewhere like Peter Symonds College in Winchester typically applies a 5 C's at GCSE admission policy, and gets very good Oxbridge offers, something like 60 in an average year. But it is in an affluent area with very high house prices (Winchester).

    Sure.
    But somewhere like Greenhead College in Kirklees, which is neither in an affluent area nor selective, also gets very good results.

    Well run large sixth form colleges work.

    Shame that the government's administration methods, funding structure and tax policies are making them pretty well unviable then.
    Agreed.
    The funding pressures on them are utterly absurd.

    What makes it even more stupid is that helping 6th form colleges would be an easy win for a government, since you would see demonstrable positive results within the parliamentary electoral timescale.
    Trying to do that for the entire primary and secondary systems is much tougher, given how long it takes for a given cohort to progress all the way through.
    Trouble is that a lot of secondary schools are really attached to their sixth forms. They don't particularly make sense financially (tiny classes) and often don't make sense results-wise. But they help recruit staff (A Level teaching is fun) and pupils (parents like what they signal about academics).

    So getting rid of school sixth forms (which you have to do to make comprehensive sixth form colleges work) is a hard sell politically.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    As recently as 1996, my year, the very top university offer was AAB, AAA offers were unheard-of, except for possibly a couple of very niche specialist courses.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,078

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    To be fair it does make it easier for better universities to select the middle class kids, as can go on non exam criteria if they all get similar results. Is that not the whole point of the charade?
    To be fair the complete screw up in 2020 followed by the utter screw up in 2021 means it's utterly impossible to work out what any grade actually means nowadays.

    The whole system of GCSEs and A levels need to be rebuilt and redesigned into something practical for the 21st century....
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,993
    edited August 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    This is hilarious

    I posted a comment about Brexiteers who think Brexit is shit and are blaming BoZo the high priest of Brexit

    There has been a cascade of comments about how annoying it is that I posted it.

    And Brexiteers accuse me of being triggered...

    Snowflakes.

    It is true that talking and reading about Brexit is boring, there are 50 or 100 more important trends going on in the world right now than that. But my worry for you is genuine, most people now don’t give the Brexit wars a second thought - even Tory members are about to elect someone who was a vocal Remainer. But there seem to be a sad group for whom what was always a pretty trivial issue still defines their self identity. These are almost all on the Remain side of the argument.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,240
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ONS/status/1560507188459741185

    Retail sales volumes rose slightly by 0.3% in July 2022 following a fall of 0.2% in June 2022.

    Retail remains 2.3% above its pre-pandemic level http://ow.ly/aAlL50KnA8c


    People not feeling the need to tighten their belts.

    Or simply having to pay higher prices for things...
    Or stocking up.
    Indeed, expecting things to go further up in price.

    The ONS did mention that alcohol, tobacco, clothes and household goods all fell. This would suggest to me that discretionary spending is down.
    Lol, you’ve realised the logical error in your first argument.

    To be honest, that discretionary spending isn’t falling off a cliff should be a big concern.

    Of course, the media don’t see it like that. They want the story to be “people are feeling the squeeze and spending less.” They don’t like asking “well why aren’t people saving ahead of the huge energy price rises?”
    Two reasons why people aren't saving.

    A bit of denial. Despite it being one of the defining advantages for humans, the ability to anticipate and prepare for future events can be hard to use when the anticipated change is negative. People are in denial about how bad the price increases will be.

    Secondly, there's an assumption that the government will be forced by public and media pressure to fix the problem, so that there will be no disaster to prepare for. The government have done a lot to create this feeling by emphasizing how much they have done and will do to help, and so there's a complacency. The infinite capacity of government borrowing will ride to the rescue again, and all will be well.

    I have my doubts. I think a wise thing to do this winter is to consolidate homes with wider family and friends as much as possible. Have granny come to stay early for Christmas, and don't send her home until winter is over.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    The other side of the coin is that the anti-Scotts, like moonshine, appear to think that the effects (positive, negative or debatable) of the most consequential policy decision of the last decade are something that it's somehow impolite to either mention or notice.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,759
    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Brampton Manor does very well, and so it should. It selects those with excellent GCSE results, and turns them into excellent A-level results.

    Even more impressive are those schools and colleges where students have modest GCSE scores on entry into the sixth form, and turn out excellent A-level results. Value-added, in other words. It's from those schools/colleges that other institutions and Ofsted should be looking for the magic formula. The best example was Loreto SFC in inner Manchester; though I'm a bit out of date, it used to have stunning value-added and probably still has. There are many others.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Sure, I get the pragmatic stuff and I see that we agree. So my question to you is this: would you still want to rejoin with no financial rebate and on condition that we abandon our currency? I suspect you will say no - but I'm convinced that those who have a peculiar IMO fetish for the EU would rejoin at any cost.
    I'm a practical man, & yes I believe the benefits would outweigh the costs. One thing, in the short-medium term interest rates would likely be lower for mortgage holders in the UK.
    I mean I know it's a nation in very different position to the UK, but look at Orban/Hungary - he hardly agrees with the broad soft left social direction that is massively the EU consensus but at the end of the day Hungary aren't leaving - he knows where his bread is buttered.
    It's a bit different but Turkey and NATO is another intensely practical relationship with no real "values" concern.
    But you must acknowledge that so many of the issues we face now have been many years in the making. It was great to have frictionless trade with the Continent, but for some uniquely British reason, that became frictionless decline of our productive capacity, frictionless growth of our BOP deficit, frictionless metastisis of an anti-British tendency within our own institutions. I share your belief that a plucky and determined country/Government could have made the best of staying in the EU (though I think we may have soon reached the end point of that strategy), but we weren't that country and Government. We are now out, and we need to find ourselves again.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,759
    edited August 2022

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Looking at their admissions page, they are a state school, but seem to be an independent selective sixth form college; so you need A's or B's at GCSE and to pass an interview to get in.
    A bit like a 'grammar school'.

    https://www.bramptoncollege.com/admissions/
    Not really like a grammar school. I think a lot of sixth form colleges (and even sixth forms in schools) are selective; perhaps this one more than most.

    But yes, if you filter out pupils who do not want to be in school at all, and then pick the most academic of those, the sausage is halfway made but it is still doing something right if it scores more Oxbridge places than Eton.

    Aggressive targeting, perhaps. One chap once told me he got people through DofE awards by carefully tailoring programmes to people rather than sending massive cohorts through one-size-fits-all expeditions.

    And the power of example. The kids can see what is possible if it has been done before. No longer is there a sense that university is "not for the likes of us".
    I am not sure I agree - it seems like the success of this arrangement is very closely connected to the principle of selective education, which is the same principle that drives grammar schools; and it is what left leaning middle class people often object to. Brampton College provides a dilemma for them, because the beneficiaries of the system are overwhelmingly poor people, many of whom appear to be non white and from an immigrant background.

    Somewhere like Peter Symonds College in Winchester typically applies a 5 C's at GCSE admission policy, and gets very good Oxbridge offers, something like 60 in an average year. But it is in an affluent area with very high house prices (Winchester).

    Sure.
    But somewhere like Greenhead College in Kirklees, which is neither in an affluent area nor selective, also gets very good results.

    Well run large sixth form colleges work.

    Shame that the government's administration methods, funding structure and tax policies are making them pretty well unviable then.
    Agreed.
    The funding pressures on them are utterly absurd.

    What makes it even more stupid is that helping 6th form colleges would be an easy win for a government, since you would see demonstrable positive results within the parliamentary electoral timescale.
    Trying to do that for the entire primary and secondary systems is much tougher, given how long it takes for a given cohort to progress all the way through.
    Trouble is that a lot of secondary schools are really attached to their sixth forms. They don't particularly make sense financially (tiny classes) and often don't make sense results-wise. But they help recruit staff (A Level teaching is fun) and pupils (parents like what they signal about academics).

    So getting rid of school sixth forms (which you have to do to make comprehensive sixth form colleges work) is a hard sell politically.
    Spot on. I would add that there's been a lot of research over the last twenty years showing that the size of a sixth form correlates (not perfectly, of course) with results and value-added. Small school sixth forms are, by far, the weakest performers overall.

    But no government has had the political courage to act on the findings of such research.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148
    Sandpit said:

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    The French were actually very interested in the design at one point. The UK carriers are almost the anti-Charles De Gaulle.
    The big screw-up was the decision not to put ‘cats and traps’ on the carriers, thus limiting the range of aircraft that can fly from them to those which can make a vertical landing.
    That gets into an interesting trade space - cat and trap flying is much more dangerous and requires constant training. The French make heavy use of US Navy facilities to keep their pilots trained for carrier landings.

    By comparison, in the Falklands War, some of the RAF pilots who went South carried out their first ever carrier landing on arrival at the Task Force. One chap was noticed to be a bit reticent about a night sortie - on asking it was discovered that he had never made a ski-jump launch before, had just done his first landing on a carrier and rather wanted some practise....

    Then, to actually get more range, you need tanker aircraft...

    On the other hand, F18s would be cheaper....

    One thing that I haven;'t seen studied was just putting the arrestor system in. That way you could use conventional STOL aircraft for cargo, as tankers etc - though at the cost of using a lot of deck.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,356
    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    To be fair it does make it easier for better universities to select the middle class kids, as can go on non exam criteria if they all get similar results. Is that not the whole point of the charade?
    To be fair the complete screw up in 2020 followed by the utter screw up in 2021 means it's utterly impossible to work out what any grade actually means nowadays.

    The whole system of GCSEs and A levels need to be rebuilt and redesigned into something practical for the 21st century....
    The IB is already an alternative
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    Grades boundaries are being made harder, though.
    This year is only halfway through that process.

    But out of all the issues which need addressing in UK education, it's nowhere near the most important, and gets a disproportionate amount of attention.
  • Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Looking at their admissions page, they are a state school, but seem to be an independent selective sixth form college; so you need A's or B's at GCSE and to pass an interview to get in.
    A bit like a 'grammar school'.

    https://www.bramptoncollege.com/admissions/
    Not really like a grammar school. I think a lot of sixth form colleges (and even sixth forms in schools) are selective; perhaps this one more than most.

    But yes, if you filter out pupils who do not want to be in school at all, and then pick the most academic of those, the sausage is halfway made but it is still doing something right if it scores more Oxbridge places than Eton.

    Aggressive targeting, perhaps. One chap once told me he got people through DofE awards by carefully tailoring programmes to people rather than sending massive cohorts through one-size-fits-all expeditions.

    And the power of example. The kids can see what is possible if it has been done before. No longer is there a sense that university is "not for the likes of us".
    I am not sure I agree - it seems like the success of this arrangement is very closely connected to the principle of selective education, which is the same principle that drives grammar schools; and it is what left leaning middle class people often object to. Brampton College provides a dilemma for them, because the beneficiaries of the system are overwhelmingly poor people, many of whom appear to be non white and from an immigrant background.

    Somewhere like Peter Symonds College in Winchester typically applies a 5 C's at GCSE admission policy, and gets very good Oxbridge offers, something like 60 in an average year. But it is in an affluent area with very high house prices (Winchester).

    Sure.
    But somewhere like Greenhead College in Kirklees, which is neither in an affluent area nor selective, also gets very good results.

    Well run large sixth form colleges work.

    Shame that the government's administration methods, funding structure and tax policies are making them pretty well unviable then.
    Agreed.
    The funding pressures on them are utterly absurd.

    What makes it even more stupid is that helping 6th form colleges would be an easy win for a government, since you would see demonstrable positive results within the parliamentary electoral timescale.
    Trying to do that for the entire primary and secondary systems is much tougher, given how long it takes for a given cohort to progress all the way through.
    Trouble is that a lot of secondary schools are really attached to their sixth forms. They don't particularly make sense financially (tiny classes) and often don't make sense results-wise. But they help recruit staff (A Level teaching is fun) and pupils (parents like what they signal about academics).

    So getting rid of school sixth forms (which you have to do to make comprehensive sixth form colleges work) is a hard sell politically.
    Spot on. I would add that there's been a lot of research over the last twenty years showing that the size of a sixth form correlates (not perfectly, of course) with results and value-added. Small school sixth forms are, by far, the weakest performers overall.

    But no government has had the political courage to act on the findings of such research.
    Experts with numbers, or what feels right?

    Decisions, decisions...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,949
    edited August 2022

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    Aiui three (or four if double maths is included) A-levels is back as the standard at some of the most expensive schools so they can devote the rest of the time to subjects that are of more practical use in life.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,356

    darkage said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Looking at their admissions page, they are a state school, but seem to be an independent selective sixth form college; so you need A's or B's at GCSE and to pass an interview to get in.
    A bit like a 'grammar school'.

    https://www.bramptoncollege.com/admissions/
    To my mind there is a huge difference between selection at 11 and selection at 16. I don't have a problem with selective sixth forms (my daughter will probably be going to one, pending results next week), and in reality all A level courses have entry requirements. But selection of younger children is unnecessarily divisive, creates two classes of education, writes kids off before some have the chance to show their potential, and is unfair because in reality it disadvantages poorer kids. My objection to selection in education is more practical than ideological - looking at the evidence I don't think it works at 11, but I can see the case for it at 16, and even more so at 18. My objection to private education is both ideological and practical, on the other hand.
    Most grammars also select at 16 but to get the good GCSEs needed to get into a top 6th form college and do A levels you also need a good academic education from 11 to 16. There is also nothing wrong with private schools, the more choice the better
  • Andy_JS said:

    When Trump won in 2016 everyone should have come together to work out why so many people voted for him and to try to ensure that it wouldn't happen again by dealing with the problems that must have resulted in him being elected. The fact that he's favourite again would suggest the problems haven't been properly addressed.

    More people voted for HRC...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148
    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    As recently as 1996, my year, the very top university offer was AAB, AAA offers were unheard-of, except for possibly a couple of very niche specialist courses.
    I was 90/91

    Yeah - AAB could get you into Oxford, Cambridge etc. AAA guaranteed it.

    We had a guy on my course who had AAAA - he got 100% on everything, essentially. Because the uni course used % marks, he got 98% on his overall degree.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,879

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Brampton Manor does very well, and so it should. It selects those with excellent GCSE results, and turns them into excellent A-level results.

    Even more impressive are those schools and colleges where students have modest GCSE scores on entry into the sixth form, and turn out excellent A-level results. Value-added, in other words. It's from those schools/colleges that other institutions and Ofsted should be looking for the magic formula. The best example was Loreto SFC in inner Manchester; though I'm a bit out of date, it used to have stunning value-added and probably still has. There are many others.
    Brampton seems to take the bulk of its kids at 11, years before they take GCSEs. They do top up their sixth form and that does indeed seem to be on a selective basis but they also apply Newham's entrance criteria for all applicants: https://www.bramptonmanor.org/Admissions/

    Am I missing something?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148
    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    To be fair it does make it easier for better universities to select the middle class kids, as can go on non exam criteria if they all get similar results. Is that not the whole point of the charade?
    To be fair the complete screw up in 2020 followed by the utter screw up in 2021 means it's utterly impossible to work out what any grade actually means nowadays.

    The whole system of GCSEs and A levels need to be rebuilt and redesigned into something practical for the 21st century....
    But remember - having the exam results before you apply to university is Fascism. Or Stalinism. Or Maoism. One of those.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,932
    My Imperial offer back in the 90s was BBC. It was considered high at the time, but gave some wriggle room. I think some poor soul had AAB for Cambridge. It was hugely stressful for them. I feel sorry for kids today.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,356

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    Not a good idea, we need the aircraft carriers to defend our overseas territories and play a full part in NATO and as a P5 UN member. Note Truss now pushing increased defence spending
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,322
    edited August 2022
    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    The obsessives are on both sides. The swivel eyed obsessive bores of the nineties and noughties became the popular prophets and election winners of the last decade. Scotts time will come in the 2040s.

    My prediction? We will join the then European Federation in 2046. However in 2048 the AI takes over global governance from humans.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,567
    edited August 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    Well May was a pragmatic remainer, Johnson a remainer who chose leave for tactical reasons, and Truss an enthusiastic remainer. Maybe what Brexit needs is a true believer, like, err Sunak?

    But for some reason leavers have decided he is the remainer not Truss.
    Coming soon to a Sunak graphic.

    It is rather funny in fairness.

    All comes down to knifing the great one and not being good enough to overcome that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,356
    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
    Not true. If Leavers had never compromised we would be in a No Deal Brexit now, with no free trade deal at all with the
    EU and a hard border in Ireland
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,756
    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    I can tell you why OFSTED isn't. It's because, ultimately, they are not interested in schools doing well. If all schools were doing well, there would be no excuse for their existence. Which is what they actually care about.

    That's why after 35 years, they keep telling us they need more powers because schools are getting more rubbish.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,356

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    The obsessives are on both sides. The swivel eyed obsessive bores of the nineties and noughties became the popular prophets and election winners of the last decade. Scotts time will come in the 2040s.

    My prediction? We will join the then European Federation in 2046. However in 2048 the AI takes over global governance from humans.

    And who elects the AI? If we don't have control over it AI is not a benefit but dangerous
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    edited August 2022

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Brampton Manor does very well, and so it should. It selects those with excellent GCSE results, and turns them into excellent A-level results.

    Even more impressive are those schools and colleges where students have modest GCSE scores on entry into the sixth form, and turn out excellent A-level results. Value-added, in other words. It's from those schools/colleges that other institutions and Ofsted should be looking for the magic formula. The best example was Loreto SFC in inner Manchester; though I'm a bit out of date, it used to have stunning value-added and probably still has. There are many others.
    As mentioned upthread, this is a very good example.
    https://www.greenhead.ac.uk/college-info/college-performance-results

    2022 looks decent, too.
    https://www.greenhead.ac.uk/results-day-2022-greenhead-college-leads-the-way
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,567
    I recall a link to some academic who apparently changed scoring to out of 130 or so. Even though people knew and got similar percentages they supposedly felt much happier scoring in the 90s rather than 70%.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    HYUFD said:

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    Not a good idea, we need the aircraft carriers to defend our overseas territories and play a full part in NATO and as a P5 UN member. Note Truss now pushing increased defence spending
    We don't even have the areoplanes for two Queen Elizabeth class carriers do we? I agree we need to defend the Falklands, and I want us to build the Navy long term, but I see those carriers as white elephants.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,322
    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    The obsessives are on both sides. The swivel eyed obsessive bores of the nineties and noughties became the popular prophets and election winners of the last decade. Scotts time will come in the 2040s.

    My prediction? We will join the then European Federation in 2046. However in 2048 the AI takes over global governance from humans.

    And who elects the AI? If we don't have control over it AI is not a benefit but dangerous
    Yes, long term we are f***ed. If the human race is lucky, it will be mostly human with in built superior AI who take over. Such is life, well at least future life.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,759
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Brampton Manor does very well, and so it should. It selects those with excellent GCSE results, and turns them into excellent A-level results.

    Even more impressive are those schools and colleges where students have modest GCSE scores on entry into the sixth form, and turn out excellent A-level results. Value-added, in other words. It's from those schools/colleges that other institutions and Ofsted should be looking for the magic formula. The best example was Loreto SFC in inner Manchester; though I'm a bit out of date, it used to have stunning value-added and probably still has. There are many others.
    Brampton seems to take the bulk of its kids at 11, years before they take GCSEs. They do top up their sixth form and that does indeed seem to be on a selective basis but they also apply Newham's entrance criteria for all applicants: https://www.bramptonmanor.org/Admissions/

    Am I missing something?
    Yes. In reality, because it's oversubscribed, the average GCSE score of those admitted to do A levels is exceptionally high, and place 'can't' be found for those with modest GCSE scores, who would be admitted to do A levels in a 'typical' sixth form college.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,567

    HYUFD said:

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    Not a good idea, we need the aircraft carriers to defend our overseas territories and play a full part in NATO and as a P5 UN member. Note Truss now pushing increased defence spending
    We don't even have the areoplanes for two Queen Elizabeth class carriers do we? I agree we need to defend the Falklands, and I want us to build the Navy long term, but I see those carriers as white elephants.
    The government agrees with you, don't forget it had wanted to cancel both of them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,356

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    The obsessives are on both sides. The swivel eyed obsessive bores of the nineties and noughties became the popular prophets and election winners of the last decade. Scotts time will come in the 2040s.

    My prediction? We will join the then European Federation in 2046. However in 2048 the AI takes over global governance from humans.

    And who elects the AI? If we don't have control over it AI is not a benefit but dangerous
    Yes, long term we are f***ed. If the human race is lucky, it will be mostly human with in built superior AI who take over. Such is life, well at least future life.
    There is no luck about it, if we get to a point we may not retain control over AI it should be banned and leaders elected who will ban it and enforce that ban by arresting anyone involved in it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,356

    HYUFD said:

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    Not a good idea, we need the aircraft carriers to defend our overseas territories and play a full part in NATO and as a P5 UN member. Note Truss now pushing increased defence spending
    We don't even have the areoplanes for two Queen Elizabeth class carriers do we? I agree we need to defend the Falklands, and I want us to build the Navy long term, but I see those carriers as white elephants.
    Truss wants to increase defence spending so that can be spent on more planes
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Sure, I get the pragmatic stuff and I see that we agree. So my question to you is this: would you still want to rejoin with no financial rebate and on condition that we abandon our currency? I suspect you will say no - but I'm convinced that those who have a peculiar IMO fetish for the EU would rejoin at any cost.
    I'm a practical man, & yes I believe the benefits would outweigh the costs. One thing, in the short-medium term interest rates would likely be lower for mortgage holders in the UK.
    I mean I know it's a nation in very different position to the UK, but look at Orban/Hungary - he hardly agrees with the broad soft left social direction that is massively the EU consensus but at the end of the day Hungary aren't leaving - he knows where his bread is buttered.
    It's a bit different but Turkey and NATO is another intensely practical relationship with no real "values" concern.
    But you must acknowledge that so many of the issues we face now have been many years in the making. It was great to have frictionless trade with the Continent, but for some uniquely British reason, that became frictionless decline of our productive capacity, frictionless growth of our BOP deficit, frictionless metastisis of an anti-British tendency within our own institutions. I share your belief that a plucky and determined country/Government could have made the best of staying in the EU (though I think we may have soon reached the end point of that strategy), but we weren't that country and Government. We are now out, and we need to find ourselves again.
    It's the tendency to gold plate, and stick to "the rules" quite unlike anyone else in the world whilst delaying major decisions and having a lawyerocracy which is the issue. The exact same errors we made whilst being in the EU are being repeated wholesale with net zero/energy.
    Because it's the same people doing it, our own agencies. A bad sign was very soon after Brexit, with the flooding, nary a mention of dredging the Rivers was made. Because we still kept (and I think probably still do?) to the EU directive that makes/made dredging a practical impossibility. Organisations like the Environment Agency need a lot of encouragement to realise that they now serve the country, not the other way around.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,756

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    I didn't say this yesterday, for all sorts of reasons, but:

    Grade boundaries have been substantially dropped this year. And it should be noted they weren't exactly high before, due to the botched nature of exam reforms. They had to be dropped massively in 2018 and 2019 or nobody would have got any grades above about a C.

    I went through the grade boundaries comparing them to 2019 after my own cohort did much better than I was expecting (100% B or above, which believe me is unheard of) and I was taken aback. On average you are looking at a mark about 10% lower to get an A, and as much as 25% lower to get a D.

    Which is why nobody is making comments about the exam results. Pretty much everybody got what or better than they expected. Most years a substantial minority don't because they are given over or under-ambitious targets, or they had a bad or very good day in the exam, or because the exam was badly marked. It's one reason why exams don't necessarily tell you who the brightest people are, especially in essay based subjects.

    I don't think there were any good options after the mishandling of the exam system over the last eight years, but one thing I'm sure of is this is not going to do anything for the credibility of it.
  • eek said:

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    To be fair it does make it easier for better universities to select the middle class kids, as can go on non exam criteria if they all get similar results. Is that not the whole point of the charade?
    To be fair the complete screw up in 2020 followed by the utter screw up in 2021 means it's utterly impossible to work out what any grade actually means nowadays.

    The whole system of GCSEs and A levels need to be rebuilt and redesigned into something practical for the 21st century....
    But remember - having the exam results before you apply to university is Fascism. Or Stalinism. Or Maoism. One of those.
    Get rid of interviews, which are generally lousy predictors of anything but take inordinate amounts of time, effort and (in these enlightened times) carbon footprint, and the UCAS computer could dish out university places after A-level results are known.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,863
    Jonathan said:

    My Imperial offer back in the 90s was BBC. It was considered high at the time, but gave some wriggle room. I think some poor soul had AAB for Cambridge. It was hugely stressful for them. I feel sorry for kids today.

    All this talk of A-levels is both a bit over 20 years in the past or a bit under 20 years in the future (Daughter) to my personal situation - so I can look at all this with afar right now...
    The key question looking at all this from a very decent lens isn't is kid x getting this or that grade, but is the education system properly setting kids up for the future.
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    Well May was a pragmatic remainer, Johnson a remainer who chose leave for tactical reasons, and Truss an enthusiastic remainer. Maybe what Brexit needs is a true believer, like, err Sunak?

    But for some reason leavers have decided he is the remainer not Truss.
    Coming soon to a Sunak graphic.

    It is rather funny in fairness.

    All comes down to knifing the great one and not being good enough to overcome that.
    It's not really about Leave/Remain though, is it?

    Sunak's problem (apart from knifing Poor Borwisy-Worisy) is that he's telling people that they can't have their cake and eat it, that there are tradeoffs to be made.

    Truss (who is sound on Brexit, like St Paul was sound on Christianity) is selling the same sunny optimistic unicorn world where we can have everything we want and no downside.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148

    HYUFD said:

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    Not a good idea, we need the aircraft carriers to defend our overseas territories and play a full part in NATO and as a P5 UN member. Note Truss now pushing increased defence spending
    We don't even have the areoplanes for two Queen Elizabeth class carriers do we? I agree we need to defend the Falklands, and I want us to build the Navy long term, but I see those carriers as white elephants.
    We are purchasing F35s on a continuing basis. 25 so far. 42 is the plan by the end of 2023. The current talk seems to be of a fleet of around 80.

    The carriers are designed for 24-48 fixed wing aircraft, though you could surge that to 60+ with a deck park etc. Though at that point, you would be making aircraft movement slow, difficult and maybe even dangerous.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,879
    Jonathan said:

    My Imperial offer back in the 90s was BBC. It was considered high at the time, but gave some wriggle room. I think some poor soul had AAB for Cambridge. It was hugely stressful for them. I feel sorry for kids today.

    My son had to get A*, A, B for Oxford in Scottish Advanced Highers which are pretty similar to A levels. I think that the A* had to be in economics or maths. Several others had even higher requirements but they, in fairness, did not have the advantage of their TSA and interviews. Warwick was surprisingly low, possibly as a tempter to put it in second place.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    To be fair it does make it easier for better universities to select the middle class kids, as can go on non exam criteria if they all get similar results. Is that not the whole point of the charade?
    To be fair the complete screw up in 2020 followed by the utter screw up in 2021 means it's utterly impossible to work out what any grade actually means nowadays.

    The whole system of GCSEs and A levels need to be rebuilt and redesigned into something practical for the 21st century....
    But remember - having the exam results before you apply to university is Fascism. Or Stalinism. Or Maoism. One of those.
    Get rid of interviews, which are generally lousy predictors of anything but take inordinate amounts of time, effort and (in these enlightened times) carbon footprint, and the UCAS computer could dish out university places after A-level results are known.
    But it's like school holidays - you *can't* stagger those by area. The universe would break.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,322

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    Well May was a pragmatic remainer, Johnson a remainer who chose leave for tactical reasons, and Truss an enthusiastic remainer. Maybe what Brexit needs is a true believer, like, err Sunak?

    But for some reason leavers have decided he is the remainer not Truss.
    Coming soon to a Sunak graphic.

    It is rather funny in fairness.

    All comes down to knifing the great one and not being good enough to overcome that.
    It's not really about Leave/Remain though, is it?

    Sunak's problem (apart from knifing Poor Borwisy-Worisy) is that he's telling people that they can't have their cake and eat it, that there are tradeoffs to be made.

    Truss (who is sound on Brexit, like St Paul was sound on Christianity) is selling the same sunny optimistic unicorn world where we can have everything we want and no downside.
    Cakeism was surely core to Brexit?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506

    HYUFD said:

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    Not a good idea, we need the aircraft carriers to defend our overseas territories and play a full part in NATO and as a P5 UN member. Note Truss now pushing increased defence spending
    We don't even have the areoplanes for two Queen Elizabeth class carriers do we? I agree we need to defend the Falklands, and I want us to build the Navy long term, but I see those carriers as white elephants.
    We are purchasing F35s on a continuing basis. 25 so far. 42 is the plan by the end of 2023. The current talk seems to be of a fleet of around 80.

    The carriers are designed for 24-48 fixed wing aircraft, though you could surge that to 60+ with a deck park etc. Though at that point, you would be making aircraft movement slow, difficult and maybe even dangerous.
    So really we don't even have the aircraft to fill one yet. Which isn't going to menace the Argentinians particularly.

    Give it to the EU (the French) and let them spend their money.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,993

    HYUFD said:

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    Not a good idea, we need the aircraft carriers to defend our overseas territories and play a full part in NATO and as a P5 UN member. Note Truss now pushing increased defence spending
    We don't even have the areoplanes for two Queen Elizabeth class carriers do we? I agree we need to defend the Falklands, and I want us to
    build the Navy long term, but I see those carriers
    as white elephants.
    2022 has given a pretty clear lesson that what is needed is the ability launch hundreds of drones to the battlefield. For a far away enemy, are these best launched from carrier groups? Bases in autocracies that we’ve signed a devil’s pact with? From submarines? I dunno. Plenty of soul searching for military analysts must be going on one assumes.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,322
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    The obsessives are on both sides. The swivel eyed obsessive bores of the nineties and noughties became the popular prophets and election winners of the last decade. Scotts time will come in the 2040s.

    My prediction? We will join the then European Federation in 2046. However in 2048 the AI takes over global governance from humans.

    And who elects the AI? If we don't have control over it AI is not a benefit but dangerous
    Yes, long term we are f***ed. If the human race is lucky, it will be mostly human with in built superior AI who take over. Such is life, well at least future life.
    There is no luck about it, if we get to a point we may not retain control over AI it should be banned and leaders elected who will ban it and enforce that ban by arresting anyone involved in it
    Do you trust the Chinese military not to develop it? Do you think the Chinese trust the US military not to develop it?

    Our divided world has no realistic choice to stop.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,148
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    I didn't say this yesterday, for all sorts of reasons, but:

    Grade boundaries have been substantially dropped this year. And it should be noted they weren't exactly high before, due to the botched nature of exam reforms. They had to be dropped massively in 2018 and 2019 or nobody would have got any grades above about a C.

    I went through the grade boundaries comparing them to 2019 after my own cohort did much better than I was expecting (100% B or above, which believe me is unheard of) and I was taken aback. On average you are looking at a mark about 10% lower to get an A, and as much as 25% lower to get a D.

    Which is why nobody is making comments about the exam results. Pretty much everybody got what or better than they expected. Most years a substantial minority don't because they are given over or under-ambitious targets, or they had a bad or very good day in the exam, or because the exam was badly marked. It's one reason why exams don't necessarily tell you who the brightest people are, especially in essay based subjects.

    I don't think there were any good options after the mishandling of the exam system over the last eight years, but one thing I'm sure of is this is not going to do anything for the credibility of it.
    I agree - the point of the exam system (if you agree with exams as a differentiator, which I am not very sure about) is to provide a scale of ability. The current system is failing even in that. It is now pointless.

    A levels could be redefined as Pass or Fail.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,863
    Pulpstar said:

    Jonathan said:

    My Imperial offer back in the 90s was BBC. It was considered high at the time, but gave some wriggle room. I think some poor soul had AAB for Cambridge. It was hugely stressful for them. I feel sorry for kids today.

    All this talk of A-levels is both a bit over 20 years in the past or a bit under 20 years in the future (Daughter) to my personal situation - so I can look at all this with afar right now...
    The key question looking at all this from a very decent lens isn't is kid x getting this or that grade, but is the education system properly setting kids up for the future.
    I do think kids this year have been hard done by compared to the previous cohort mind, at the margins there are kids who should be in this year to Uni and kids last year that shouldn't have gone.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,756
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    Grades boundaries are being made harder, though.
    This year is only halfway through that process.

    But out of all the issues which need addressing in UK education, it's nowhere near the most important, and gets a disproportionate amount of attention.
    They're really not. They're being raised from the estimated levels they were at last year, but it seems most unlikely they will get back to the level of the old A-levels and GCSEs.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Team Truss is back in the clarification game after a 2009 leaflet emerged, co-written by Liz Truss, calling for, inter alia:-

    Doctors to have a 10 per cent pay cut — Liz hates @Foxy
    Patients to be charged to see doctors
    The Royal Navy to lose two aircraft carriers
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19553769/liz-truss-charge-patients-doctor-defence-cuts/

    The actual document (rather than just the 'outrageous' 'gotchas' as presented to us by the Sunak-supporting press, would probably be quite an interesting insight into what Truss would do to get the economy through.

    I've been in favour of getting rid of one of the aircraft carriers for a long time - giving it to the EU as a shiny bauble to get the perfect cherry on top trade deal. It's actually a laibility so economically it works out as Liz indicates. Would mean the EU could sail it around with an EU flag feeling very grand.
    Not a good idea, we need the aircraft carriers to defend our overseas territories and play a full part in NATO and as a P5 UN member. Note Truss now pushing increased defence spending
    We don't even have the areoplanes for two Queen Elizabeth class carriers do we? I agree we need to defend the Falklands, and I want us to build the Navy long term, but I see those carriers as white elephants.
    Truss wants to increase defence spending so that can be spent on more planes
    Liz Truss used to want to increase defence spending (pace the old leaflet) to 3% but since she has looked like winning, that increase has been watered down to a vague aspiration to reach 3% in 10 years' time. So if Liz Truss wins the next two general elections and hasn't changed her mind again...
  • DriverDriver Posts: 3,127
    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
    Nonsense. Most people who ended up voting Leave would have been quite happy staying in as long as it meant going back to pre-Maastricht(*), and only became Leavers when it became obvious after Cameron's failed renegotiation that this wasn't on offer.

    (*) And the implications of this were always obvious, but the Remainers wouldn't learn the lesson, leaving us where we are now.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,264
    moonshine said:

    most people now don’t give the Brexit wars a second thought

    Once again, for the hard of thinking, my post highlighted Brexiteers whining about Brexit.

    If you are going to be triggered every time Brexiteers whine about how shit Brexit is, you are in for a sad time
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,993

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    The obsessives are on both sides. The swivel eyed obsessive bores of the nineties and noughties became the popular prophets and election winners of the last decade. Scotts time will come in the 2040s.

    My prediction? We will join the then European Federation in 2046. However in 2048 the AI takes over global governance from humans.

    And who elects the AI? If we don't have control over it AI is not a benefit but dangerous
    Yes, long term we are f***ed. If the human race is lucky, it will be mostly human with in built superior AI who take over. Such is life, well at least future life.
    There is no luck about it, if we get to a point we may not retain control over AI it should be banned and leaders elected who will ban it and enforce that ban by arresting anyone involved in it
    Do you trust the Chinese military not to develop it? Do you think the Chinese trust the US military not to develop it?

    Our divided world has no realistic choice to stop.
    Sigh. You are of course right. I might go and prune the roses, hopefully the sort of inconsequential pleasure our future robot overlords still allow us.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    DavidL said:

    'East End Eton' celebrates record year with nearly 90% of A-level students getting A* or A grades: State school in one of London's poorest boroughs will send 85 pupils to Oxbridge this year
    Brampton Manor Academy in one of London's poorest boroughs sees 430 students achieve straight A* or As
    85 pupils secured places at Oxford or Cambridge universities - with 470 going to a Russell Group institution
    School in Newham has now sent nearly 300 students to Oxbridge in just a decade since it opened sixth form
    This year's figure for Oxbridge of 85 was a significant rise on the 55 offers received in 2021 and 51 in 2020

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11124035/East-End-Eton-Brampton-Manor-Academy-sees-nearly-90-level-students-getting-A.html

    Astonishing and transformative. Why is every school, and indeed OFSTED, not focused on learning how they achieve what they have?
    Meanwhile the son of a friend didn't get into the university he wanted - Imperial.

    He got 4 As at A level, with one A*

    Yup - AAAA*

    Meanwhile, the daughter of someone else I know got 5 A levels. All A*....

    Anyone for some redefining of grade boundaries?

    When 44% of grades are A or A* as they were last year, they have no meaning at all.

    I also think there's merit in giving people percentages rather than grades, and also a grade showing their ranking, so that people would get say 78%/A* if the 78% puts them in the top 2%, or 78%/C if they are 30% down.
    Something like that - we are heading (back) to the comedy where you can't tell the difference between the bested the average.

    Consider - if 44% of grades are A or A* and 50% are going to university....

    When I did my A levels, 3 As got you into anywhere you wanted. They were quite rare, and meant you had achieved very high marks. 4 A levels was for people with socialisation issues.

    This meant that B or even C grades could still get you into university.
    Grades boundaries are being made harder, though.
    This year is only halfway through that process.

    But out of all the issues which need addressing in UK education, it's nowhere near the most important, and gets a disproportionate amount of attention.
    They're really not. They're being raised from the estimated levels they were at last year, but it seems most unlikely they will get back to the level of the old A-levels and GCSEs.
    You're almost certainly right about that.
    Though I still think it a second order issue.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,206
    re exams and university places (especially at top ones ) - Exam grades have suffered grade inflation over the years and places at top universities may have grown but can only grow so much so it does not really matter the actual letter of the A level a student has , if that letter is not in the top band necessary to allocate a place they are not goign to get in. Its a competition and grade inflation is irrelevant - you just need to get higher letters than before
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,503
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Sure, I get the pragmatic stuff and I see that we agree. So my question to you is this: would you still want to rejoin with no financial rebate and on condition that we abandon our currency? I suspect you will say no - but I'm convinced that those who have a peculiar IMO fetish for the EU would rejoin at any cost.
    I'm a practical man, & yes I believe the benefits would outweigh the costs. One thing, in the short-medium term interest rates would likely be lower for mortgage holders in the UK.
    I mean I know it's a nation in very different position to the UK, but look at Orban/Hungary - he hardly agrees with the broad soft left social direction that is massively the EU consensus but at the end of the day Hungary aren't leaving - he knows where his bread is buttered.
    It's a bit different but Turkey and NATO is another intensely practical relationship with no real "values" concern.
    But you must acknowledge that so many of the issues we face now have been many years in the making. It was great to have frictionless trade with the Continent, but for some uniquely British reason, that became frictionless decline of our productive capacity, frictionless growth of our BOP deficit, frictionless metastisis of an anti-British tendency within our own institutions. I share your belief that a plucky and determined country/Government could have made the best of staying in the EU (though I think we may have soon reached the end point of that strategy), but we weren't that country and Government. We are now out, and we need to find ourselves again.
    It's the tendency to gold plate, and stick to "the rules" quite unlike anyone else in the world whilst delaying major decisions and having a lawyerocracy which is the issue. The exact same errors we made whilst being in the EU are being repeated wholesale with net zero/energy.
    That’s a very good way of putting it.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 3,127

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    Well May was a pragmatic remainer, Johnson a remainer who chose leave for tactical reasons, and Truss an enthusiastic remainer. Maybe what Brexit needs is a true believer, like, err Sunak?

    But for some reason leavers have decided he is the remainer not Truss.
    Eh? What? The reasons Sunak disqalified himself have nothing to do with Brexit.
This discussion has been closed.