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The Truss view of “British Workers” could be an electoral liability – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Representative Liz Cheney said early Wednesday that she was “thinking” about running for president in 2024, a prospect that would test the national viability of a conservative, anti-Trump platform that failed resoundingly in Wyoming.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/17/us/politics/liz-cheney-2024-president.html

    I am quite tired of hearing about her really. She's had her 15 minutes now, done the chat shows, time to pack it in.
    Has she mentioned that she lost her Republican primary, due in part to the Democrats actively campaigning for her Republican opponent?
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,055
    LuckyGuy said: "It's not much of an incentive for having 10. ."
    Agreed, though the mothers do get a medal.

    Orban's effort seems more likely to succeed, but I think the odds are still against it having a large effect.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hungary-axes-income-tax-women-4-or-more-kids-n969936
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,743
    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Some serious rain in North East London:

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar

    Monsoonal, here
    Isn't it monsooneroonial?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,942

    LuckyGuy said: "It's not much of an incentive for having 10. ."
    Agreed, though the mothers do get a medal.

    Orban's effort seems more likely to succeed, but I think the odds are still against it having a large effect.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hungary-axes-income-tax-women-4-or-more-kids-n969936

    The French have had income tax relief on having lots of children for a while. Has it noticeably altered things?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Research from Ipsos shows 2 in 3 of Brits think the Government are not doing enough to help people through the cost of living crisis, including 6 in 10 who voted for the Conservatives in 2019

    More: https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/two-thirds-say-government-not-providing-enough-support-cost https://twitter.com/TrinhIpsosUK/status/1559867411293151232/photo/1

    I think the question is phrased wrongly. I don't want the Government to 'help me through the col crisis', though if I need such help I will accept it reluctantly. I want the Government to drive down the cost of living. That is quite different to giving me some of my own money back to make things a bit easier until we have to pay the inevitable bill. One has a positive long term impact, one has a negative one. I want to hear every week, potentially every day, of an initiative that the Government is taking that will drive down the col, on energy yes, but on other things too.

    Actions that would qualify: bringing new sources of energy on board and incentivising and enabling domestic suppliers to create more energy. Longer term projects to exploit UK oil, gas, and potentially coal, also local incinerator schemes revisited and greenlit. Longer term projects to create more renewables supply (tidal), and breaking ground on more power storage projects to even out supply. Re-open our gas storage within weeks not years. Temporary refitting of gas power stations to use more readily available fuels (someone here mentioned this yesterday). Bringing Iranian oil supply back on stream.

    New trade deals to drive down the price of food. An end to financial and other incentives for farmers to leave the industry, and/or 'rewild'.

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.
    All really good ideas, until that last line.

    The only way the war gets resolved, is by the Russian army going back to Russia, and another Russian leader making a massive effort towards peace with the world. Until then, the HIMARS will keep raining down.
    Tbf to @Luckyguy1983 (and I hardly agree with him on anything) his last line does not state how the 'speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict' is to be obtained. Your route is the only way.
    Sadly he has a long history of being in favour of the Scholz (and Corbyn) position, of Ukraine sueing for peace on current boundaries - which the Ukranians understandably find to be totally unacceptable.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    algarkirk said:

    MISTY said:

    carnforth said:

    Regarding -erooni, this Tweet seems apposite.

    https://twitter.com/Pandamoanimum/status/1532009692540567553?s=20&t=KlYp-YQhlq7LaeFOobSF9A

    People who use the term Platty Joobs no doubt also count down in sleeps till they go on their holibobs with their gawjus famalam to chillax and have a have totes amazeballs time because it’s like wine o’clock all the time so can legit go for a cray cray cheeky sesh whenevs babez.

    Platty Joobs was funny because of its unnecessariness: we give nicknames like this to things which are commonplace, and the Platinum Jubilee was the opposite.

    “Crimbo” may be the oldest and worst offender.
    City/|Ville / town has some explaining to do as in

    Embarrassment City !

    Cringe Ville

    Awkward Town, population you bro...

    Perhaps these are expansions from 'Queer Street' - which is 200 years old at least, has no connection SFAICS with sexual meanings of the word 'queer'. It is used in Sherlock Holmes stories. I remember it being used in admonitory tones ('You will find yourself in Queer Street') by primary school teachers, c1965.

    Queer Street is Carey Street where the bankruptcy courts were.
    Thanks. 'On the road to Carey Street' is also proverbial.

    Julian Carey St?
    On Hampstead Heath, with Norman Lamont and his red box?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Look at the difference between Pope in 'retirement' and the likes of Lord Peter Hill-Norton, former chief of defence staff and what he said about the Rendlesham incident
    It is very noticeable how many of the main voices in this contemporary UFO flap are military/politicians in some kind of retirement

    This could be because once they retire in old age they all go ga-ga, or because when retired they feel liberated to speak the truth as they see it

    Even the guy who produced the Calvine photo: a retired RAF press officer
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,183
    Toms said:

    As we have shown repeatedly that H Sap is incapable of living in harmony with itself and with Nature, we seek a deus ex machina for salvation.

    But I am sure that there have been/are/will be other sentient creatures out there.

    Why are you sure?

    If there were only ever one sentient creature then it would surely look out at the stars and think how improbable it would be that it was the only sentient creature.

    Even if the universe was teeming with intelligent life, it is so vast in time and space that the chances of encountering any evidence for the existence of such life are pretty small.

    I'd like us to have put more effort into exploring Mars, because that's our best bet of narrowing down the range for a couple of terms in the Drake equation in my lifetime, but aliens seem to occupy the same sort of faith position in some people's minds that religious faith used to.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,717
    A little anecdote:

    This afternoon we went swimming in the sea in Bournemouth, near the pier. As I was wading around in the surf, I discovered a plastic bag containing a nappy.

    Yuck.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,743

    LuckyGuy said: "It's not much of an incentive for having 10. ."
    Agreed, though the mothers do get a medal.

    Orban's effort seems more likely to succeed, but I think the odds are still against it having a large effect.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hungary-axes-income-tax-women-4-or-more-kids-n969936

    Here's an idea for Truss, oven ready and already half done: If you have 10 children you get a medal and have your child benefit abolished.

  • ALASKA US HOUSE VERY SPECIAL ELECTION August 2022

    As per NYT - Updated 6:01 AM ET 69% REPORTED

    Mary Peltola (D) 56,892 37.8%
    Sarah Palin (R) 48,304 32.1%
    Nick Begich (R) 43,038 28.6%
    Write-ins 2,150 1.4%
    Total reported 150,384

    SSI - Just heard privately, from reputable source, that campaign consultants for BOTH Peltola and Begich are saying that, based on their own separate campaign polls, IF Begich ends up in 3rd place and thus eliminated from final, decisive count of 2nd preferences, in that case his transfers will keep Peltola ahead of Palin and thus elect the Democrat to Congress from Alaska.

    Note that his outcome was likewise forecast by publicly-published polling, by Alaska Survey Research in late July.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Some serious rain in North East London:

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar

    Monsoonal, here
    Isn't it monsooneroonial?
    Damn, I missed one!

    I am a hoonerooni and a loonerooni and I will smite my manhood with a frozen spoonerooni
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,341
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,280
    I hadn't realised James Forsyth was at school with Rishi Sunak.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited August 2022

    Toms said:

    As we have shown repeatedly that H Sap is incapable of living in harmony with itself and with Nature, we seek a deus ex machina for salvation.

    But I am sure that there have been/are/will be other sentient creatures out there.

    Why are you sure?

    If there were only ever one sentient creature then it would surely look out at the stars and think how improbable it would be that it was the only sentient creature.

    Even if the universe was teeming with intelligent life, it is so vast in time and space that the chances of encountering any evidence for the existence of such life are pretty small.

    I'd like us to have put more effort into exploring Mars, because that's our best bet of narrowing down the range for a couple of terms in the Drake equation in my lifetime, but aliens seem to occupy the same sort of faith position in some people's minds that religious faith used to.
    I didn't say we'd encounter sentient creatures. In fact I'd put a low probability on that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103

    I hadn't realised James Forsyth was at school with Rishi Sunak.

    Best man at the wedding.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    But we know that the best eyes in the MoD examined all six of these images, and decided there WAS a large unidentified flying object in them (being buzzed by two Harriers)

    Did the MoD really get fooled by a dodgy lens or a scuff on a photo? All six of the photos?

    Likewise, the photo prof at Sheffield Hallam Uni says he thinks the photo is legitimate, and not a glitch or a flaw

    Hmm
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    He doesn't use stooges.

    But I can assure you that there are hundreds of takes where his trick doesn't work. Those shots don't make it into the show.
    Definitely no stooges, one would have made themselves known by now.

    He’s usually superficially honest about numbers games, like when he hit 10 heads in a row coin tossing.
    You’re watching the last minute of TEN HOURS spent continually tossing the coin, but he was happy to have been the first person to have ever got ‘10 heads’ on film


    I saw his stage show, and it was brilliant. I only got one trick, and that was because of a well-placed theatre safety curtain at the interval, hiding for 10 minutes what should have been ‘in view the whole time’. He’s a genuine master of misdirection.

    Sometimes he screws up through, like with his lottery numbers camera trick, that everyone with any experience of digital travelling mattes called out immediately.
    Apparently there was going to be an amazing twist with the lottery trick, but they had to leave it out at the last minute because Camelot believed it would convince everyone that the lottery was a fix.
    Ooh, not heard that one before. But yes, it was a silly thing to try and do, because everyone watched the show (and the tape of the show, in slow motion) completely focussed on how he got the numbers on stage between the draw and the reveal.

    He’d already given away half his method by that point, the alternative being that there was a time delay on the actual lottery programme, or that somehow the lottery operator was in on the trick - which would have called into effect the integrity of the game.

    As an aside, I like watching the Penn & Teller show “Fool Us”, where the magicians try and work out the trick of other magicians. I saw P&T live show in Vegas, which was totally bonkers and finished with them catching bullets in their teeth!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,393

    Andy_JS said:

    Ironic that Thames Water imposes a hosepipe ban on the same day as heavy rain showers.

    Unfortunately its not actually that ironic, it can actually be causative. Countries and regions afflicted by drought can be simultaneously afflicted by flooding too. You see that a lot in the tropics with droughted land and intermittent thunderstorms.

    The ground in drought conditions doesn't absorb heavy rain as well as wet ground normally does, so the water bounces off the ground and settles on the surface causing flash floods and runs off away into rivers etc rather than being absorbed where its needed.

    Sustained, light, drizzly rain is far better than intermittent, rare, heavy and thundery downpours, for ending a drought. It allows the land to become less hard and resistant to the rain and more accepting of it.
    The rain seems pretty persistent in London this afternoon.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Look at the difference between Pope in 'retirement' and the likes of Lord Peter Hill-Norton, former chief of defence staff and what he said about the Rendlesham incident
    It is very noticeable how many of the main voices in this contemporary UFO flap are military/politicians in some kind of retirement

    This could be because once they retire in old age they all go ga-ga, or because when retired they feel liberated to speak the truth as they see it

    Even the guy who produced the Calvine photo: a retired RAF press officer
    Or they are still on the payroll to some degree and the method by which what is to be allowed out is released/revealed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,605
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Ironic that Thames Water imposes a hosepipe ban on the same day as heavy rain showers.

    Unfortunately its not actually that ironic, it can actually be causative. Countries and regions afflicted by drought can be simultaneously afflicted by flooding too. You see that a lot in the tropics with droughted land and intermittent thunderstorms.

    The ground in drought conditions doesn't absorb heavy rain as well as wet ground normally does, so the water bounces off the ground and settles on the surface causing flash floods and runs off away into rivers etc rather than being absorbed where its needed.

    Sustained, light, drizzly rain is far better than intermittent, rare, heavy and thundery downpours, for ending a drought. It allows the land to become less hard and resistant to the rain and more accepting of it.
    The rain seems pretty persistent in London this afternoon.
    And it's absolutely lovely. So refreshing after all that heat.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    But we know that the best eyes in the MoD examined all six of these images, and decided there WAS a large unidentified flying object in them (being buzzed by two Harriers)

    Did the MoD really get fooled by a dodgy lens or a scuff on a photo? All six of the photos?

    Likewise, the photo prof at Sheffield Hallam Uni says he thinks the photo is legitimate, and not a glitch or a flaw

    Hmm
    Mphm. The best eyes of the RAF would surely be trained for examining their own reconnaissance images - which are not designed to defraud (though the enemy camouflage is, of course). It's a bit like expecting a cook to diagnose the problem of someone with the squits, or a calligrapher to spot a forged document, when you'd need a forensic document examiner.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,341
    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    algarkirk said:

    MISTY said:

    carnforth said:

    Regarding -erooni, this Tweet seems apposite.

    https://twitter.com/Pandamoanimum/status/1532009692540567553?s=20&t=KlYp-YQhlq7LaeFOobSF9A

    People who use the term Platty Joobs no doubt also count down in sleeps till they go on their holibobs with their gawjus famalam to chillax and have a have totes amazeballs time because it’s like wine o’clock all the time so can legit go for a cray cray cheeky sesh whenevs babez.

    Platty Joobs was funny because of its unnecessariness: we give nicknames like this to things which are commonplace, and the Platinum Jubilee was the opposite.

    “Crimbo” may be the oldest and worst offender.
    City/|Ville / town has some explaining to do as in

    Embarrassment City !

    Cringe Ville

    Awkward Town, population you bro...

    Perhaps these are expansions from 'Queer Street' - which is 200 years old at least, has no connection SFAICS with sexual meanings of the word 'queer'. It is used in Sherlock Holmes stories. I remember it being used in admonitory tones ('You will find yourself in Queer Street') by primary school teachers, c1965.

    Queer Street is Carey Street where the bankruptcy courts were.
    Thanks. 'On the road to Carey Street' is also proverbial.

    Julian Carey St?
    On Hampstead Heath, with Norman Lamont and his red box?
    In one of my favourite ski resorts, Tignes, they renamed the black run that used to be known as Troll after French downhiller Johan Clary, so the run is sometimes known by Brits as Julian Clary. One Brit was heard to say that when it was icy, he would rather be fisted than go down on Julian Clary!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    But we know that the best eyes in the MoD examined all six of these images, and decided there WAS a large unidentified flying object in them (being buzzed by two Harriers)

    Did the MoD really get fooled by a dodgy lens or a scuff on a photo? All six of the photos?

    Likewise, the photo prof at Sheffield Hallam Uni says he thinks the photo is legitimate, and not a glitch or a flaw

    Hmm
    The alternative, was that the USAF became aware of the MoD having received a number of photographs of their experimental aircraft, and applied significant diplomatic pressure to the MoD to classify the images before the Soviets found them.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
    Already extant in the 1960s, in reality or in credible design: Harrier, and [edit] for instance the HS141.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,901
    Driver said:

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.

    Indeed. I don't think Putin is going to quit any time soon either - although he really should.
    Essentially it comes down to whether young Russians or young Ukrainians continue to be willing to die in the Donbas & Southern Ukraine.

    As soon as one or (more likely) both groups decide no, then we will have a negotiated peace. We are a long way from that, and I expect this war will drag on for some years now.

    As for the Tories (& other Western Governments), they have brought down catastrophe on themselves. The fuckwits thought that Europe could weaponise Russian gas supplies without shooting itself in both feet.

    This is going to be a seriously grim winter in many parts of Europe.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061
    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"
    Read the comment I was replying to. It said: "even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics"!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,341
    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I didn't say I didn't dingbat, I said I wasn't an aeronautical engineer, in the same way as you are clearly not called Sherlock.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
    'Physics defying' is usually actually 'beyond our known capabilities'
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,341
    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
    Is that eye witness in the singular?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    But we know that the best eyes in the MoD examined all six of these images, and decided there WAS a large unidentified flying object in them (being buzzed by two Harriers)

    Did the MoD really get fooled by a dodgy lens or a scuff on a photo? All six of the photos?

    Likewise, the photo prof at Sheffield Hallam Uni says he thinks the photo is legitimate, and not a glitch or a flaw

    Hmm
    Mphm. The best eyes of the RAF would surely be trained for examining their own reconnaissance images - which are not designed to defraud (though the enemy camouflage is, of course). It's a bit like expecting a cook to diagnose the problem of someone with the squits, or a calligrapher to spot a forged document, when you'd need a forensic document examiner.
    I get your point, but a doctor is going to know the difference between a serious wound and someone painted with red ink, even though he has never been trained to see ink stains

    These are the RAF's image/intel experts, taught to look out for anomalies, interesting things, new foreign aircraft, in the sky. They would not be this pathetically easy to fool
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
    Is that eye witness in the singular?
    Two young chefs, both unidentified. One made the statement the other confirmed
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Driver said:

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.

    Indeed. I don't think Putin is going to quit any time soon either - although he really should.
    Essentially it comes down to whether young Russians or young Ukrainians continue to be willing to die in the Donbas & Southern Ukraine.

    As soon as one or (more likely) both groups decide no, then we will have a negotiated peace. We are a long way from that, and I expect this war will drag on for some years now.

    As for the Tories (& other Western Governments), they have brought down catastrophe on themselves. The fuckwits thought that Europe could weaponise Russian gas supplies without shooting itself in both feet.

    This is going to be a seriously grim winter in many parts of Europe.
    There’s 15 million Ukrainian men of fighting age, each of whom see an existential threat to their country and identity.
    They’ll keep fighting so long as they have weapons of war, which appear to be in close to unlimited supply right now.

    How many men can Russia muster? They have a standing army of 900k, plus reserves and conscripts, but have already lost 40,000 men and seen 100,000 more injured. Oh, and they’ve lost half their tanks in less than six months, mostly destroyed by cheap handheld weapons, and have almost no way of manufacturing more tanks at speed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"
    Read the comment I was replying to. It said: "even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics"!
    Ah. Missed that. Yes, a silly thing to say from @Nigel_Foremainarooni
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,175
    Bold move at the best of times to imply voters are lazy but when your Prime Minister is on his second holiday of the month it seems particularly unwise. https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1559939483692302336
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I didn't say I didn't dingbat, I said I wasn't an aeronautical engineer, in the same way as you are clearly not called Sherlock.
    Yes, to be fair, you said you didn't even understand the laws of aeronautics, and then pontificated on the laws of physics. Do you really not have any inkling of how nonsensical that is?

    Maybe you think physics is simpler than aeronautics? Maybe you just don't know the meaning of any of the words you're using, and just say "dingbat!" when it becomes apparent ...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
    Already extant in the 1960s, in reality or in credible design: Harrier, and [edit] for instance the HS141.
    Which does suggest this is US secret tech, and that fits with all the later secrecy, maybe? But again why the F fly it in broad daylight over Scotland? And why was it carefully buzzed by two "Harriers"?


    Another look at the slightly enhanced photo

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    The plane exactly fits the eye witness description: a Harrier showed up and made several low level passes for 5-6 minutes (presumably examining the UFO). The plane in the photo really does look like a Harrier doing exactly that, swinging by a large UFO for a peek
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    @Leon, get a US VPN and watch Jeremy Corbell’s new movie about Bob Lazar and the alien spacecraft.
    https://tubitv.com/movies/610453/bob-lazar-area-51-flying-saucers

    Corbell was on Rogan last week, Lazar a couple of years ago.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,341
    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"
    Read the comment I was replying to. It said: "even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics"!
    Ah. Missed that. Yes, a silly thing to say from @Nigel_Foremainarooni
    An object that was that shape is unlikely to be able to maintain a hovering position even with immensely powerful downward facing jets (similar to the old "flying bedstead") and these are clearly not viable on this fake, sorry picture. So the object would therefore be gravity defying without also showing the propulsion. Therefore not silly. I can do silly, if you prefer. Please see my post about Julian Clary.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
    Already extant in the 1960s, in reality or in credible design: Harrier, and [edit] for instance the HS141.
    Which does suggest this is US secret tech, and that fits with all the later secrecy, maybe? But again why the F fly it in broad daylight over Scotland? And why was it carefully buzzed by two "Harriers"?


    Another look at the slightly enhanced photo

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    The plane exactly fits the eye witness description: a Harrier showed up and made several low level passes for 5-6 minutes (presumably examining the UFO). The plane in the photo really does look like a Harrier doing exactly that, swinging by a large UFO for a peek
    Another 'secret tech' supporting bit of evidence is that Pope has always said he had the blown up picture in the wall in his office and it was 'removed' whilst he was out on orders of top brass. Suggests to me someone 'in the know' rang Pope's boss and demanded to know why he had a picture of the 'super diamond mega dude craft' (tm) on his wall
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,341
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
    Is that eye witness in the singular?
    Two young chefs, both unidentified. One made the statement the other confirmed
    And no-one has been able to track down these purveyors of delicious tit bits of nonsense? They have vanished like soufflé in the presence of Mr Creosote ? How very convenient do you not think?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 2,822
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"
    Read the comment I was replying to. It said: "even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics"!
    Ah. Missed that. Yes, a silly thing to say from @Nigel_Foremainarooni
    An object that was that shape is unlikely to be able to maintain a hovering position even with immensely powerful downward facing jets (similar to the old "flying bedstead") and these are clearly not viable on this fake, sorry picture. So the object would therefore be gravity defying without also showing the propulsion. Therefore not silly. I can do silly, if you prefer. Please see my post about Julian Clary.
    I remember a large, solid grey cylinder hanging in the sky with the words 'Good Year' on the side. I'm quite sure that wasn't defying the laws of physics.

    There's definitely something iffy about this photograph though.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"
    Read the comment I was replying to. It said: "even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics"!
    Ah. Missed that. Yes, a silly thing to say from @Nigel_Foremainarooni
    An object that was that shape is unlikely to be able to maintain a hovering position even with immensely powerful downward facing jets (similar to the old "flying bedstead") and these are clearly not viable on this fake, sorry picture. So the object would therefore be gravity defying without also showing the propulsion. Therefore not silly. I can do silly, if you prefer. Please see my post about Julian Clary.
    Gosh, here's a poser for you:
    image
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
    Is that eye witness in the singular?
    Two young chefs, both unidentified. One made the statement the other confirmed
    And no-one has been able to track down these purveyors of delicious tit bits of nonsense? They have vanished like soufflé in the presence of Mr Creosote ? How very convenient do you not think?
    I assume the MoD didnt interview cats
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    edited August 2022
    Somewhere out there is an ageing RAF airman who has STARED INTO THE COLD, DEAD, SULLEN, PLANET-KILLING YELLOW EYES OF A MIRTHLESSLY LAUGHING ALIEN PILOT

    omg IMAGINE-O-ROONI

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
    Is that eye witness in the singular?
    Two young chefs, both unidentified. One made the statement the other confirmed
    And no-one has been able to track down these purveyors of delicious tit bits of nonsense? They have vanished like soufflé in the presence of Mr Creosote ? How very convenient do you not think?
    Would anyone want to, who was publishing the photo in any form? It would be very expensive in copyright fees once Mr X back home in Sorrento or Scunthorpe or wherever realised what was happening.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"

    The statement from the eye witness is quite clear:

    "A large diamond shaped UFO hovered for about ten minutes, before ascending vertically upwards at high speed"

    That shows unusual aeronautical abilities, especially for 1990, but nothing physics-defying
    Is that eye witness in the singular?
    Two young chefs, both unidentified. One made the statement the other confirmed
    And no-one has been able to track down these purveyors of delicious tit bits of nonsense? They have vanished like soufflé in the presence of Mr Creosote ? How very convenient do you not think?
    It is odd. I don't see any easy explanation that covers all the bases
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,901
    Sandpit said:

    Driver said:

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.

    Indeed. I don't think Putin is going to quit any time soon either - although he really should.
    Essentially it comes down to whether young Russians or young Ukrainians continue to be willing to die in the Donbas & Southern Ukraine.

    As soon as one or (more likely) both groups decide no, then we will have a negotiated peace. We are a long way from that, and I expect this war will drag on for some years now.

    As for the Tories (& other Western Governments), they have brought down catastrophe on themselves. The fuckwits thought that Europe could weaponise Russian gas supplies without shooting itself in both feet.

    This is going to be a seriously grim winter in many parts of Europe.
    There’s 15 million Ukrainian men of fighting age, each of whom see an existential threat to their country and identity.
    They’ll keep fighting so long as they have weapons of war, which appear to be in close to unlimited supply right now.

    How many men can Russia muster? They have a standing army of 900k, plus reserves and conscripts, but have already lost 40,000 men and seen 100,000 more injured. Oh, and they’ve lost half their tanks in less than six months, mostly destroyed by cheap handheld weapons, and have almost no way of manufacturing more tanks at speed.
    I am more interested in the effect of all this on the Western governments, as the social and economic costs of the war continue to mount.

    Several European countries need to prepare for blackouts and energy rationing this winter. If the winter is very cold in Central/Eastern Europe, this will be very grim.

    Who is going to get the blame for this?

    I seriously doubt it will be Putin, it will be the Governments in power.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,717
    Leon said:

    Somewhere out there is an ageing RAF airman who has STARED INTO THE COLD, DEAD, SULLEN, PLANET-KILLING YELLOW EYES OF A MIRTHLESSLY LAUGHING ALIEN PILOT

    omg IMAGINE-O-ROONI

    I've just found a clip of you, Leon:

    https://giphy.com/gifs/giffffr-tyttpHduQdg3d6O8jAs
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,341

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I'm not sure anyone is saying the alleged aircraft in the Calvine photo "defied the laws of physics"
    Read the comment I was replying to. It said: "even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics"!
    Ah. Missed that. Yes, a silly thing to say from @Nigel_Foremainarooni
    An object that was that shape is unlikely to be able to maintain a hovering position even with immensely powerful downward facing jets (similar to the old "flying bedstead") and these are clearly not viable on this fake, sorry picture. So the object would therefore be gravity defying without also showing the propulsion. Therefore not silly. I can do silly, if you prefer. Please see my post about Julian Clary.
    I remember a large, solid grey cylinder hanging in the sky with the words 'Good Year' on the side. I'm quite sure that wasn't defying the laws of physics.

    There's definitely something iffy about this photograph though.
    I think if aliens can fly through space in helium balloons, maybe they they can breath in the gas, or maybe they are lighter than air. If you want to believe in absolutely anything, then you could believe that is a possibility. Personally I think it unlikely lol.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,341
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A slightly higher res version of the Calvine UFO photo

    The two major prosaic explanations: rock in a loch, or mountaintop, have now been largely dismissed

    The location of the photo does not fit the rock, the weather does not fit the mountaintop (there are several other objections, too)

    Which leaves the alternative hypotheses that


    1. This is all a highly elaborate hoax, extending over decades

    or

    2. That really is something odd, floating in the Scottish sky


    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FCOQiQKciRJsZ4pm26hdrFuVv1uzMk-k/view

    Im leaning towards US tech, although i'm unsure why they are flying it over Pitlochry. The same problem with the triangle flap over Belgium around the same time.
    Although the two combined might suggest black ops US decided to trial some newer 'kit' around the end of the Reagan era.
    Lower chance, 'Them'
    I have no idea

    But I've noticed that, when I look at the image now, my gorilla-on-a-basketball-court-ignoring-brain no longer jumps immediately to rock-in-a-loch or mountain-in-clouds

    I see something peculiar in the sky. Or a hoax

    Indeed now we have the slightly higher res image, the idea it is a mountain top with cloud inversion is ridiculous, which makes me wonder why I ever entertained it as an explanation. Are we biased towards the prosaic? Is this normalcy bias of the eyes?

    Gun to head, right now I'd agree with you. The hoax would have to be extremely elaborate and involve hundreds of people working together from 1990, and for what?

    So that is a strange aircraft, in the sky over Calvine. Is my hunch as of now
    The hoax can be a simple as an object thrown in the sky and a photo taken. The evidence we have is NOT six photos and the negatives, it is one photo and NO negatives. Everything else is distraction unless it turns up.

    Derren Brown doesn't use stooges he says. Do you believe him? I don't.
    You are ignoring all the eye-witness accounts PLUS the MoD investigation, which concluded that these are legit images of a significant size aircraft of unknown origin, in the sky. Not a kite or a frisbee. They had their best people scrutinise the images, experts in the field

    I guess all this could be lies AS WELL but at some point the extended tissue of lies is stretched to breaking point on Occams Razorooni
    My major issue is how much Nick Pope has always bigged this up ftom well before the photo went public. Hes an MOD man and still plays the 'can neither confirm or deny' shoboggins, he's still a govt man at heart. So i have suspicions this, like gimbal and tic tac is a 'look over here, not over here' thing. Pope is a big pusher of the 'possible defence threat' narrative (aka more money for defence projects please)
    Well yes, but then again he always said these photos existed, he always told us what they looked like (big diamond thing in grey sky buzzed by plane) and he was consistently derided and dismissed as a loon

    And yet Lo, here we are, the photo has emerged and he is vindicated entirely. He is allowed a few days of profitable gloating
    Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community, nor by the press, hes always been the UK media's go to guy since the original 'UKs real Fox Muldur' story
    But he was deeply involved with the MoD and i suspect still follows their tune much like Lue Elizondo in the States. They are frontmen encouraging us to look at what is currently 'allowed out'. Lots of prosaic but non definitive stuff with a hint of 'its a threat, much funding required!'
    Thats clearly how the powers that be want the topic looked at right now, in the same way blue book were ordered to debunk everything at all costs publically whilst their actual thoughts and findings privately were different, its just a shift of narrative control.
    You onky have to look at the likes of Donald Keyhoe ca 1952 to see how the brakes were suddenly applied hard and we went into full debunk. Weve only just emerged from that into this 'oddities, threats, research!' reality
    Lol. "Oh he was never dismissed as a loon in the UFO community" I bet he wasn't. I am sure David Icke is not dismissed as a loon in the "people who believe in lizard people" community either.
    Clearly you're a convinced skeptic

    So what do you think is in the Calvine photo?
    Well I am not an aeronautical engineer, but my first observation is that even if it is what you want to believe it is, it would have to have a way of defying the laws of physics, but I guess the answer of the gullible, sorry, believer, is that those cunning aliens will have technology that can do that. I suspect it is a very convenient shaped imperfection on the lens or maybe a scuff on the photo or a hoax. I think the chance of it being aliens (who if they do exist, clearly do not want to be seen and why of why would they want to be seen in Scotland of all places) is infinitesimally small.
    It's funny how often people say things like - to paraphrase only slightly - "I don't know what the laws of physics are, but I'm sure this defies them."
    I didn't say I didn't dingbat, I said I wasn't an aeronautical engineer, in the same way as you are clearly not called Sherlock.
    Yes, to be fair, you said you didn't even understand the laws of aeronautics, and then pontificated on the laws of physics. Do you really not have any inkling of how nonsensical that is?

    Maybe you think physics is simpler than aeronautics? Maybe you just don't know the meaning of any of the words you're using, and just say "dingbat!" when it becomes apparent ...
    You are right on one thing. I should not have said dingbat it was far too polite. I should have said twat instead , because I think that is how most on here view you. If there are such things as aliens I am sure they would share this analysis. I believe the word twat has universal appeal when it comes to describing the poster also known as Chris.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,743

    Toms said:

    As we have shown repeatedly that H Sap is incapable of living in harmony with itself and with Nature, we seek a deus ex machina for salvation.

    But I am sure that there have been/are/will be other sentient creatures out there.

    Why are you sure?

    If there were only ever one sentient creature then it would surely look out at the stars and think how improbable it would be that it was the only sentient creature.

    Even if the universe was teeming with intelligent life, it is so vast in time and space that the chances of encountering any evidence for the existence of such life are pretty small.

    I'd like us to have put more effort into exploring Mars, because that's our best bet of narrowing down the range for a couple of terms in the Drake equation in my lifetime, but aliens seem to occupy the same sort of faith position in some people's minds that religious faith used to.
    Perhaps the best place to look is earth, to look for evidence that life has emerged more than once.

    We have reason to think earth is a fertile ground for life starts. If it has only happened once, that's interesting; if it has occurred multiple times that is confirmatory of the possibility that life is common.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    The identity of the photographer is recorded in the MoD details/report on Calvine but is redacted and will remain so until 2072.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279
    Goodbye folks, see you tomorrow! Have fun.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    edited August 2022
    1/2 Simple analysis of the new high-res Calvine photo. Looks like it's at a small angle of attack if flying from right to left. Assuming the right is the tail end, there is a bulbous shape that could be surfaces/fins, perhaps even around a nacelle.

    2/2 This does not necessarily imply it's a man-made craft. But simply that it's a nuts and bolts craft. Tic Tacs had protruding tubes and center line creases. Gimbal rotates into the direction of flight. Spheres have cubes, etc.

    https://twitter.com/Condorman6/status/1559939913696567296?s=20&t=fRt-ZOYs7i84kZWmbit29w
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491
    Scott_xP said:

    Bold move at the best of times to imply voters are lazy but when your Prime Minister is on his second holiday of the month it seems particularly unwise. https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1559939483692302336

    Hmm, would elderly well off people, the most likely to be Tory Members, react negatively to the view that gosh darn it people are lazy now, not like when they themselves were young and virile and knew the value of hard work?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    algarkirk said:

    Toms said:

    As we have shown repeatedly that H Sap is incapable of living in harmony with itself and with Nature, we seek a deus ex machina for salvation.

    But I am sure that there have been/are/will be other sentient creatures out there.

    Why are you sure?

    If there were only ever one sentient creature then it would surely look out at the stars and think how improbable it would be that it was the only sentient creature.

    Even if the universe was teeming with intelligent life, it is so vast in time and space that the chances of encountering any evidence for the existence of such life are pretty small.

    I'd like us to have put more effort into exploring Mars, because that's our best bet of narrowing down the range for a couple of terms in the Drake equation in my lifetime, but aliens seem to occupy the same sort of faith position in some people's minds that religious faith used to.
    Perhaps the best place to look is earth, to look for evidence that life has emerged more than once.

    We have reason to think earth is a fertile ground for life starts. If it has only happened once, that's interesting; if it has occurred multiple times that is confirmatory of the possibility that life is common.

    Usual counter to that is, dna life is so ubiquitous it crowds out any other starts. It's disappointing, or interesting, that even the most extreme extremophils are dna.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,183
    Sandpit said:

    Driver said:

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.

    Indeed. I don't think Putin is going to quit any time soon either - although he really should.
    Essentially it comes down to whether young Russians or young Ukrainians continue to be willing to die in the Donbas & Southern Ukraine.

    As soon as one or (more likely) both groups decide no, then we will have a negotiated peace. We are a long way from that, and I expect this war will drag on for some years now.

    As for the Tories (& other Western Governments), they have brought down catastrophe on themselves. The fuckwits thought that Europe could weaponise Russian gas supplies without shooting itself in both feet.

    This is going to be a seriously grim winter in many parts of Europe.
    There’s 15 million Ukrainian men of fighting age, each of whom see an existential threat to their country and identity.
    They’ll keep fighting so long as they have weapons of war, which appear to be in close to unlimited supply right now.

    How many men can Russia muster? They have a standing army of 900k, plus reserves and conscripts, but have already lost 40,000 men and seen 100,000 more injured. Oh, and they’ve lost half their tanks in less than six months, mostly destroyed by cheap handheld weapons, and have almost no way of manufacturing more tanks at speed.
    Satellite pictures today suggesting further T-62s being pulled out of storage. A terrifying escalation if true.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,972
    edited August 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Ironic that Thames Water imposes a hosepipe ban on the same day as heavy rain showers.

    Unfortunately its not actually that ironic, it can actually be causative. Countries and regions afflicted by drought can be simultaneously afflicted by flooding too. You see that a lot in the tropics with droughted land and intermittent thunderstorms.

    The ground in drought conditions doesn't absorb heavy rain as well as wet ground normally does, so the water bounces off the ground and settles on the surface causing flash floods and runs off away into rivers etc rather than being absorbed where its needed.

    Sustained, light, drizzly rain is far better than intermittent, rare, heavy and thundery downpours, for ending a drought. It allows the land to become less hard and resistant to the rain and more accepting of it.
    The rain seems pretty persistent in London this afternoon.
    Got back from a trip to London's South Bank with my Mum - we had to shelter under Waterloo Bridge for several minutes around 2pm, and then around 4pm when we got back home in Ilford North, had to wade ankle-deep across our road to get to the front door. Luckily the door step was still above water. All receded now, reasonably quickly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    Sandpit said:

    Driver said:

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.

    Indeed. I don't think Putin is going to quit any time soon either - although he really should.
    Essentially it comes down to whether young Russians or young Ukrainians continue to be willing to die in the Donbas & Southern Ukraine.

    As soon as one or (more likely) both groups decide no, then we will have a negotiated peace. We are a long way from that, and I expect this war will drag on for some years now.

    As for the Tories (& other Western Governments), they have brought down catastrophe on themselves. The fuckwits thought that Europe could weaponise Russian gas supplies without shooting itself in both feet.

    This is going to be a seriously grim winter in many parts of Europe.
    There’s 15 million Ukrainian men of fighting age, each of whom see an existential threat to their country and identity.
    They’ll keep fighting so long as they have weapons of war, which appear to be in close to unlimited supply right now.

    How many men can Russia muster? They have a standing army of 900k, plus reserves and conscripts, but have already lost 40,000 men and seen 100,000 more injured. Oh, and they’ve lost half their tanks in less than six months, mostly destroyed by cheap handheld weapons, and have almost no way of manufacturing more tanks at speed.
    I am more interested in the effect of all this on the Western governments, as the social and economic costs of the war continue to mount.

    Several European countries need to prepare for blackouts and energy rationing this winter. If the winter is very cold in Central/Eastern Europe, this will be very grim.

    Who is going to get the blame for this?

    I seriously doubt it will be Putin, it will be the Governments in power.
    I'm sure Putin will get plenty of the blame, but our voters cannot punish him and also will think their governments should have done something, anything, to ameliorate the situation, so will definitely get punished.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    algarkirk said:

    Toms said:

    As we have shown repeatedly that H Sap is incapable of living in harmony with itself and with Nature, we seek a deus ex machina for salvation.

    But I am sure that there have been/are/will be other sentient creatures out there.

    Why are you sure?

    If there were only ever one sentient creature then it would surely look out at the stars and think how improbable it would be that it was the only sentient creature.

    Even if the universe was teeming with intelligent life, it is so vast in time and space that the chances of encountering any evidence for the existence of such life are pretty small.

    I'd like us to have put more effort into exploring Mars, because that's our best bet of narrowing down the range for a couple of terms in the Drake equation in my lifetime, but aliens seem to occupy the same sort of faith position in some people's minds that religious faith used to.
    Perhaps the best place to look is earth, to look for evidence that life has emerged more than once.

    We have reason to think earth is a fertile ground for life starts. If it has only happened once, that's interesting; if it has occurred multiple times that is confirmatory of the possibility that life is common.

    Looking at near earth objects in relation to panspermia theories might also be fruitful
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433
    edited August 2022

    Sandpit said:

    Driver said:

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.

    Indeed. I don't think Putin is going to quit any time soon either - although he really should.
    Essentially it comes down to whether young Russians or young Ukrainians continue to be willing to die in the Donbas & Southern Ukraine.

    As soon as one or (more likely) both groups decide no, then we will have a negotiated peace. We are a long way from that, and I expect this war will drag on for some years now.

    As for the Tories (& other Western Governments), they have brought down catastrophe on themselves. The fuckwits thought that Europe could weaponise Russian gas supplies without shooting itself in both feet.

    This is going to be a seriously grim winter in many parts of Europe.
    There’s 15 million Ukrainian men of fighting age, each of whom see an existential threat to their country and identity.
    They’ll keep fighting so long as they have weapons of war, which appear to be in close to unlimited supply right now.

    How many men can Russia muster? They have a standing army of 900k, plus reserves and conscripts, but have already lost 40,000 men and seen 100,000 more injured. Oh, and they’ve lost half their tanks in less than six months, mostly destroyed by cheap handheld weapons, and have almost no way of manufacturing more tanks at speed.
    Satellite pictures today suggesting further T-62s being pulled out of storage. A terrifying escalation if true.
    Oh no, not T-62s. They are a total waste of the valuable NLAWs and Javelins.

    They’re got about 1,000 of these 1960s relics, and that’s it. They’re likely frantically trying to rebuild what was mothballed half a century ago, but Russia is genuinely about to run out of tanks.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,183

    Sandpit said:

    Driver said:

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.

    Indeed. I don't think Putin is going to quit any time soon either - although he really should.
    Essentially it comes down to whether young Russians or young Ukrainians continue to be willing to die in the Donbas & Southern Ukraine.

    As soon as one or (more likely) both groups decide no, then we will have a negotiated peace. We are a long way from that, and I expect this war will drag on for some years now.

    As for the Tories (& other Western Governments), they have brought down catastrophe on themselves. The fuckwits thought that Europe could weaponise Russian gas supplies without shooting itself in both feet.

    This is going to be a seriously grim winter in many parts of Europe.
    There’s 15 million Ukrainian men of fighting age, each of whom see an existential threat to their country and identity.
    They’ll keep fighting so long as they have weapons of war, which appear to be in close to unlimited supply right now.

    How many men can Russia muster? They have a standing army of 900k, plus reserves and conscripts, but have already lost 40,000 men and seen 100,000 more injured. Oh, and they’ve lost half their tanks in less than six months, mostly destroyed by cheap handheld weapons, and have almost no way of manufacturing more tanks at speed.
    Satellite pictures today suggesting further T-62s being pulled out of storage. A terrifying escalation if true.
    Oliver Alexander
    @OAlexanderDK
    State of the art T-62M's heading towards Ukraine.

    Must be good for Russian morale to look at all the shiny new toys being presented at ARMY-2022, while the Kremlin sends them tanks built in the early 1960's and "modernized" in 1983.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1559945894266605571
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491
    Sandpit said:

    Driver said:

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.

    Indeed. I don't think Putin is going to quit any time soon either - although he really should.
    Essentially it comes down to whether young Russians or young Ukrainians continue to be willing to die in the Donbas & Southern Ukraine.

    As soon as one or (more likely) both groups decide no, then we will have a negotiated peace. We are a long way from that, and I expect this war will drag on for some years now.

    As for the Tories (& other Western Governments), they have brought down catastrophe on themselves. The fuckwits thought that Europe could weaponise Russian gas supplies without shooting itself in both feet.

    This is going to be a seriously grim winter in many parts of Europe.
    There’s 15 million Ukrainian men of fighting age, each of whom see an existential threat to their country and identity.
    They’ll keep fighting so long as they have weapons of war, which appear to be in close to unlimited supply right now.

    How many men can Russia muster? They have a standing army of 900k, plus reserves and conscripts, but have already lost 40,000 men and seen 100,000 more injured. Oh, and they’ve lost half their tanks in less than six months, mostly destroyed by cheap handheld weapons, and have almost no way of manufacturing more tanks at speed.
    There was talk a month or so ago of at least some desertions from the Ukrainian side, war is hell after all, but if we (and really the americans) can keep guns, ammo and cash flowing, they surely will find it easier to get men to the front than the Russians will.
  • Wiki article on Alaska 2022 Very Special Election for US House, including map of votes counted so far by state house district:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Alaska's_at-large_congressional_district_special_election

    So far, Democrat Mary Peltola is leading in 24 of 40 districts, including in Anchorage, in Juneau & southeast Alaska panhandle, and in predominately native communities in western & northern Alaska aka The Bush.

    Palin leads 12 of 40, including all of Matanuska Valley of central Alaska (also her hometown Wasilla) and plus most of the rest of northern Alaska interior, though she splits Fairbanks with Peltola.

    Begich is ahead in just 3 districts, two in suburban Anchorage and one in far southeast Alaska.

    Caveat - above analysis is based on just over 2/3 of estimated final vote, which is what's currently being reported by Alaska Division of Elections. So these numbers are subject to change, which MAY include skew toward Republicans in the latter vote counts. Note that final result for special election is scheduled for August 31.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,183
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Driver said:

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.

    Indeed. I don't think Putin is going to quit any time soon either - although he really should.
    Essentially it comes down to whether young Russians or young Ukrainians continue to be willing to die in the Donbas & Southern Ukraine.

    As soon as one or (more likely) both groups decide no, then we will have a negotiated peace. We are a long way from that, and I expect this war will drag on for some years now.

    As for the Tories (& other Western Governments), they have brought down catastrophe on themselves. The fuckwits thought that Europe could weaponise Russian gas supplies without shooting itself in both feet.

    This is going to be a seriously grim winter in many parts of Europe.
    There’s 15 million Ukrainian men of fighting age, each of whom see an existential threat to their country and identity.
    They’ll keep fighting so long as they have weapons of war, which appear to be in close to unlimited supply right now.

    How many men can Russia muster? They have a standing army of 900k, plus reserves and conscripts, but have already lost 40,000 men and seen 100,000 more injured. Oh, and they’ve lost half their tanks in less than six months, mostly destroyed by cheap handheld weapons, and have almost no way of manufacturing more tanks at speed.
    Satellite pictures today suggesting further T-62s being pulled out of storage. A terrifying escalation if true.
    Oh no, not T-62s. They are a total waste of the valuable NLAWs and Javelins.
    The Ukrainians will use Stugna-p missiles on cargo trucks, so I don't think they're going to be shy about using NLAWs on T-62s - but will Oryx be able to identify the tank afterwards?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    Wiki article on Alaska 2022 Very Special Election for US House, including map of votes counted so far by state house district:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Alaska's_at-large_congressional_district_special_election

    So far, Democrat Mary Peltola is leading in 24 of 40 districts, including in Anchorage, in Juneau & southeast Alaska panhandle, and in predominately native communities in western & northern Alaska aka The Bush.

    Palin leads 12 of 40, including all of Matanuska Valley of central Alaska (also her hometown Wasilla) and plus most of the rest of northern Alaska interior, though she splits Fairbanks with Peltola.

    Begich is ahead in just 3 districts, two in suburban Anchorage and one in far southeast Alaska.

    Caveat - above analysis is based on just over 2/3 of estimated final vote, which is what's currently being reported by Alaska Division of Elections. So these numbers are subject to change, which MAY include skew toward Republicans in the latter vote counts. Note that final result for special election is scheduled for August 31.

    Why's Palin trying to get back in the game anyway? She didn't even complete her term as Governor did she?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,341
    Aliens have abducted this thread. It is no more. It has gone out to seek new worlds. To boldly go where no split infinitive has gone before.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    new thread

  • WAPO (via Seattle Times $) - Trump is rushing to hire seasoned lawyers. But he keeps hearing ‘No’

    Former President Donald Trump and close aides have spent the days since the FBI searched his Florida home rushing to assemble a team of respected defense lawyers. But the answer they keep hearing is “No.”

    The struggle to find expert legal advice puts Trump in a bind as he faces potential criminal exposure from a records dispute with the National Archives that escalated into a federal investigation of possible violations of the Espionage Act and other statutes.

    “Everyone is saying no,” said a prominent Republican lawyer who like some others spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss confidential conversations. . . .

    Longtime confidants and advisers of Trump have grown worried about Trump’s current stable of lawyers, noting that most of them have little to no experience in cases of this type, according to two people familiar with the internal discussions.

    A Trump spokesman did not respond to requests for comment. . . .

    “The Trump team needs a first-rate, highly experienced federal criminal practitioner,” said Jon Sale, a Florida defense attorney who worked on the Watergate prosecution team and said he turned down representing Trump last week because he did not have enough time to devote to the case. “You have to evaluate whether you want to take it. It’s not like a DUI. It’s representing the former president of the United States — and maybe the next one — in what’s one of the highest-visibility cases ever.”

    “In olden days, he would tell firms representing him was a benefit because they could advertise off it. Today it’s not the same,” said Michael Cohen, a former lawyer for Trump who was convicted of tax evasion, making false statements, campaign finance violations and lying to Congress in 2018. “He’s also a very difficult client in that he’s always pushing the envelope, he rarely listens to sound legal advice and he wants you to do things that are not appropriate, ethically or legally.”

    One lawyer told a story from early in Trump’s presidency about members of his legal team urging him against tweeting about the Mueller probe, only to find he had tweeted about it before they got to the end of the West Wing driveway. Several people said that Trump was nearly impossible to represent and that it would be unclear whether they would ever get paid. . . .
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,743
    edited August 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    algarkirk said:

    Toms said:

    As we have shown repeatedly that H Sap is incapable of living in harmony with itself and with Nature, we seek a deus ex machina for salvation.

    But I am sure that there have been/are/will be other sentient creatures out there.

    Why are you sure?

    If there were only ever one sentient creature then it would surely look out at the stars and think how improbable it would be that it was the only sentient creature.

    Even if the universe was teeming with intelligent life, it is so vast in time and space that the chances of encountering any evidence for the existence of such life are pretty small.

    I'd like us to have put more effort into exploring Mars, because that's our best bet of narrowing down the range for a couple of terms in the Drake equation in my lifetime, but aliens seem to occupy the same sort of faith position in some people's minds that religious faith used to.
    Perhaps the best place to look is earth, to look for evidence that life has emerged more than once.

    We have reason to think earth is a fertile ground for life starts. If it has only happened once, that's interesting; if it has occurred multiple times that is confirmatory of the possibility that life is common.

    Usual counter to that is, dna life is so ubiquitous it crowds out any other starts. It's disappointing, or interesting, that even the most extreme extremophils are dna.
    Yes. But evidence is not impossible. And a lot easier than trying it on Mars or distant solar systems.

    Another thing to try is to replicate. If life started from non-life by a serendipitous accident (the standard model) it is possible to construct experiments both to see if it can be repeated randomly, and to see if it can be repeated with modest assistance from the chemistry set and some lab tools.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Research from Ipsos shows 2 in 3 of Brits think the Government are not doing enough to help people through the cost of living crisis, including 6 in 10 who voted for the Conservatives in 2019

    More: https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/two-thirds-say-government-not-providing-enough-support-cost https://twitter.com/TrinhIpsosUK/status/1559867411293151232/photo/1

    I think the question is phrased wrongly. I don't want the Government to 'help me through the col crisis', though if I need such help I will accept it reluctantly. I want the Government to drive down the cost of living. That is quite different to giving me some of my own money back to make things a bit easier until we have to pay the inevitable bill. One has a positive long term impact, one has a negative one. I want to hear every week, potentially every day, of an initiative that the Government is taking that will drive down the col, on energy yes, but on other things too.

    Actions that would qualify: bringing new sources of energy on board and incentivising and enabling domestic suppliers to create more energy. Longer term projects to exploit UK oil, gas, and potentially coal, also local incinerator schemes revisited and greenlit. Longer term projects to create more renewables supply (tidal), and breaking ground on more power storage projects to even out supply. Re-open our gas storage within weeks not years. Temporary refitting of gas power stations to use more readily available fuels (someone here mentioned this yesterday). Bringing Iranian oil supply back on stream.

    New trade deals to drive down the price of food. An end to financial and other incentives for farmers to leave the industry, and/or 'rewild'.

    I would also look for a speedy exit to the Ukraine conflict, and the return of Russia to the European gas market, but I appreciate that that is unlikely politically.
    All really good ideas, until that last line.

    The only way the war gets resolved, is by the Russian army going back to Russia, and another Russian leader making a massive effort towards peace with the world. Until then, the HIMARS will keep raining down.
    I am familiar with that argument, and I understand why you feel that way. I don't have any objection to Russia's military defeat (though I don't desire its collapse) but what I see at the moment is two fairly balanced sides ripping chunks out of each other, at an astronomical cost to all concerned. I think if this were the Sunnis and Shias, or the Hootoos and Tutsis, you'd feel as I do that it's a bad business but not Britain's bad business.
This discussion has been closed.