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The papers are in no doubt about the Tory winner – politicalbetting.com

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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484

    Liz Truss officially launches her campaign this morning. A chance to unite the right behind her, or to flop badly.

    A campaign that launches AFTER the first round of voting and on the day of the second does not seem to be one that has the requisite sense of urgency....
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,968
    Jonathan said:

    Not that I place much store by Lord Frost’s judgment:

    Wow. A devastating assessment of @PennyMordaunt from Lord Frost on @TalkTV just now. He says she simply wasn't up to the job as a minister and had to be moved on. Having worked with her closely he has "grave reservations" about her abilities. Crikey!

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1547474927091171329

    The views of a spectacular mediocrity who failed utterly at the only seriously important job he was ever given should not matter very much at all. The problem is that in the Conservative party they do.

    Mourdant is an empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. She is apparently supposed to have charisma, but it appears to be an acquired or specialist taste.

    It's really quite weird to watch.
    Well, they could vote for Kemi instead, another empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. It makes a change from Sunak, who used to be the empty vessel Tories projected their hopes and dreams into…
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    I see a gentle Maggie handbaging here. Looking good for Penny at PMQ's. Raynor and Blackford get the treatment :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqqqWAI-6QQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtNUGB7JcKk
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,754

    kle4 said:

    Its at a s point with Rishi that even if he does really well in the final two anything he says or offers might get dismissed by the members as him acting desperately.

    MPs might yet drift away. Truss vs Mordaunt?

    That's possible, but Truss was also felt to have underwhelmed. She was only 10 MPs ahead of Badenoch on the first ballot.

    MPs may yet decide to send two candidates who are both fresh faces to the membership. Mordaunt v Badenoch.
    That would be a remarkable insight into MPs' collective take on the quality of their own government.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270

    DavidL said:

    JACK_W said:

    DavidL said:

    I still think too much is being read into the Yougov poll of members yesterday. Rishi has time to recover with the membership if he gets through and he is by far the best known of the remaining candidates.

    There is, however, a feeling that the Tories need a fresh start and it may be that being associated with Boris is fatal to Rishi. He has to explain what he would do differently as PM, not least in tax and economic policy and he has to do it quickly.

    Rishi is in a hard place. None of the other candidates will give him back the Treasury for the above reason. If he doesn't win he faces a serious demotion at best and the risk of being simply out.

    With hours to go until round 2 there is no time for Sunak to recover from the YouGov poll and the big mo(rdaunt) from the largely positive media coverage.

    We might muse on whether Sunak and some others will fall back as MP's look to reassess their positions as the PM4PM mood music becomes ever louder.

    Gisa job Penny they call ...
    Several people on here had mentioned Penny Mordaunt as the coming thing but to be honest she had made almost zero impact on me until this week and I am still far from clear what she believes in beyond motherhood and apple pie (not cake, of course). And now she is going to be PM? It is an astonishing gamble for a party actually in government.

    This could be good, it is certainly a fresh start for the party and a chance to walk awsy from Boris's lying but it could also be a complete disaster if she finds herself miles out of her depth. Her video had a nice choice of music but said incredibly little about her. This is reckless.

    Sunak has many flaws and made serious errors as Chancellor, especially latterly, but he is at least a known quantity. The Tories are in a febrile state and the speed of this process is not helping them draw breath. I really hope that Sunak makes it to the final 2 so that there is a safer pair of hands if PM turns out to be all puff.
    A known quantity when what you know about them is bad is no recommendation.

    Sunak is tied inextricably with Johnson, his policies and his behaviour. He stood by him until the point at which he saw some personal advantage in jumping ship. And if Johnson is primarily responsible for the moral and constitutional mess in which he has left this country then Sunak is primarily responsible for the financial mess.

    I don't particularly care about the Tories wining the next election. I do care about how they run the country in the 2 years or so before then and on that basis, specifically because of what we know about him, Sunak is not fit to be PM.
    The problem with that argument is that Sunak at least understands that the one thing we can't actually do at the moment is return to the magic money tree..

    And worse the tax that most other candidates seem to want to cut is Corporation Tax which won't increase investment but instead encourage the sweating of existing while taxes are low...

    So while Sunak isn't great I actually think if you are looking over the next 2 years he's the least worst option...
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193

    When Penny supported the “overwhelming anecdotal evidence” (sic) in favour of homeopathy:

    The 16 signatories provide an interesting list of MPs who don't believe in science. Some surprising names.

    https://twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1547474016784506881

    Mordaunt holds the best chance for the CP at the next election and this is her main plus point. However, I think she has a taste for the eye-catching - she has had to row back from the defining a women stuff and now we have the homeopathy stuff. If I were a CP member I would have doubts about her.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scott_xP said:

    As it seems likely it is either Rishi or Sunak or Liz, let me make an obvious point.

    Rishi, Lincoln College, Oxford, PPE
    Liz, Merton College, Oxford, PPE

    They need to go the same way as Jeremy Hunt (Magdalen Oxford, PPE) or David Cameron (Brasenose College, Oxford, PPE) or Ed Miliband (Corpus Christi College, Oxford, PPE).

    We know what these wankers are like. PPE = bluffers and duffers and bullshitters.

    I can't remember where I saw it, but someone commented on the diversity of the candidates.

    Rishi and Liz will be the first graduates from either of those Oxford colleges to be PM IIRC...
    True dat:

    https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/oxford-people/british-prime-ministers


  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    edited July 2022
    moonshine said:

    Speccie TV last night. James Forsyth (Rishi was best man at his wedding) looked a little white when his copresenter said the big mo was with PM. Forsyth then claimed 88 was beyond Rishi’s expectations in round 1.

    Interestingly he then said he thinks PM would make Leadsome Chancellor. Given his (undisclosed to viewers) links to Rishi, quite a naughty bit of mischief making there I thought. But it did raise a good question. Who would she really appoint as chancellor? I can imagine her giving the gig to Truss, for an all female downing st and in an attempt to unify the party’s wings.

    Any better guesses?

    Truss too dangerous as Chancellor for a PM premiership. Can resign and try to bring her down at any moment. Your chancellor needs to be someone you are in lockstep with ideally, or at least some form of understanding (Blair/Brown).

    I’d keep Truss as FS or if you want to promote TT to that gig, shift to HS. She probably still needs to have a chunky gig (the LBJ maxim).

    Edit: Leadsom definitely value for a return to cabinet if PM wins though.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802
    edited July 2022
    Jonathan said:

    Not that I place much store by Lord Frost’s judgment:

    Wow. A devastating assessment of @PennyMordaunt from Lord Frost on @TalkTV just now. He says she simply wasn't up to the job as a minister and had to be moved on. Having worked with her closely he has "grave reservations" about her abilities. Crikey!

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1547474927091171329

    The views of a spectacular mediocrity who failed utterly at the only seriously important job he was ever given should not matter very much at all. The problem is that in the Conservative party they do.

    Mourdant is an empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. She is apparently supposed to have charisma, but it appears to be an acquired or specialist taste.

    It's really quite weird to watch.
    She is quite similar to Starmer in many ways. A clear improvement on the previous leader with a realistic path back to better party management, unity and structure, but not too much to tell the nation and not particularly inspiring beyond being a clear improvement.

    Both main parties were so broken and divided that I am not sure a good leader for normal times, with a clear agenda, could have won either election.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723
    edited July 2022

    Jonathan said:

    Not that I place much store by Lord Frost’s judgment:

    Wow. A devastating assessment of @PennyMordaunt from Lord Frost on @TalkTV just now. He says she simply wasn't up to the job as a minister and had to be moved on. Having worked with her closely he has "grave reservations" about her abilities. Crikey!

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1547474927091171329

    The views of a spectacular mediocrity who failed utterly at the only seriously important job he was ever given should not matter very much at all. The problem is that in the Conservative party they do.

    Mourdant is an empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. She is apparently supposed to have charisma, but it appears to be an acquired or specialist taste.

    It's really quite weird to watch.
    Well, they could vote for Kemi instead, another empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. It makes a change from Sunak, who used to be the empty vessel Tories projected their hopes and dreams into…
    I'm reminded of Ruth Davidson, who was elected in large part for not having the very definite policy position (indy for Scons) of her main opponent, Murdo Fraser, as well as for having a certain overall persona. Though Ms Mordaunt doesn't seem to have the experience of fronting things that LAdy Davidson then had as a news presenter, and of which she made great use.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484
    Stocky said:

    When Penny supported the “overwhelming anecdotal evidence” (sic) in favour of homeopathy:

    The 16 signatories provide an interesting list of MPs who don't believe in science. Some surprising names.

    https://twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1547474016784506881

    Mordaunt holds the best chance for the CP at the next election and this is her main plus point. However, I think she has a taste for the eye-catching - she has had to row back from the defining a women stuff and now we have the homeopathy stuff. If I were a CP member I would have doubts about her.
    Doubts about her versus the certainties regarding the others is probably a fair summary....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,474
    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,493

    When Penny supported the “overwhelming anecdotal evidence” (sic) in favour of homeopathy:

    The 16 signatories provide an interesting list of MPs who don't believe in science. Some surprising names.

    https://twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1547474016784506881

    I have no views on the specifics, but there is real evidence of the placebo effect. And compared with some other stuff it is cheap. And it's quite possible that a good number of presenting medical issues are in truth some version of idiopathic disorders, as a good number of people live idiopathic lives so it needs a balanced approach.

    Bedside manner, TLC and virtually inert tablets could well save billions and make people happier.

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Liz Truss officially launches her campaign this morning. A chance to unite the right behind her, or to flop badly.

    A campaign that launches AFTER the first round of voting and on the day of the second does not seem to be one that has the requisite sense of urgency....
    She is the Yvette Cooper of this leadership election.

    (Like Yvette, it makes me wonder if she really wants the job).
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802
    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    Do the anti-woke have a mass subscription to the weirdest woke websites around. Where do you all find this stuff? None of it ever reaches me, apart from you lot moaning about it!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Only Met we need to have confidence in over the next week is the Met Office.

    Pretty sure the current amber alert for extreme heat Sunday-Tuesday will be converted to red alert by tomorrow. Models back to showing 38-40C and a night minimum in the mid 20s on Monday.

    On holiday, in East Anglia, with our Thai family next week. They'll feel quite at home!
    Friends out here are finding at all rather amusing, that the typical British obsession with the weather now extends to the annual 30ºC week.

    Where I am sitting, it’s 40ºC outside at 11am. Thankfully not too humid today.
    But you will spend your day going from air conditioned building to air conditioned building via an air conditioned car.

    And in Britain we don't have air-conditioning in most offices / homes because there is zero need.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610

    moonshine said:

    Speccie TV last night. James Forsyth (Rishi was best man at his wedding) looked a little white when his copresenter said the big mo was with PM. Forsyth then claimed 88 was beyond Rishi’s expectations in round 1.

    Interestingly he then said he thinks PM would make Leadsome Chancellor. Given his (undisclosed to viewers) links to Rishi, quite a naughty bit of mischief making there I thought. But it did raise a good question. Who would she really appoint as chancellor? I can imagine her giving the gig to Truss, for an all female downing st and in an attempt to unify the party’s wings.

    Any better guesses?

    Look at the list of Penny Mordaunt's backers. Andrea Leadsom is by far the biggest name there. It is not so far fetched to believe Leadsom would have first dibs on jobs, and her age (and two previous unsuccessful runs) means she'd be no threat to Mordaunt herself.
    https://order-order.com/2022/07/14/whos-backing-who-thursday-morning-state-of-play/
    Wasn't Mordaunt Leadsom's campaign manager in last leadership election but one? When she pulled in the end.

    Sounds like these two go back a bit, so yeh looks like a bigly job coming for Andrea.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Only Met we need to have confidence in over the next week is the Met Office.

    Pretty sure the current amber alert for extreme heat Sunday-Tuesday will be converted to red alert by tomorrow. Models back to showing 38-40C and a night minimum in the mid 20s on Monday.

    On holiday, in East Anglia, with our Thai family next week. They'll feel quite at home!
    Friends out here are finding at all rather amusing, that the typical British obsession with the weather now extends to the annual 30ºC week.

    Where I am sitting, it’s 40ºC outside at 11am. Thankfully not too humid today.
    But you will spend your day going from air conditioned building to air conditioned building via an air conditioned car.

    And in Britain we don't have air-conditioning in most offices / homes because there is zero need.
    I'm currently in an airconditioned office. :smile:

    Actually, the bigger issue is that it's too cold in the winter.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270

    Liz Truss officially launches her campaign this morning. A chance to unite the right behind her, or to flop badly.

    A campaign that launches AFTER the first round of voting and on the day of the second does not seem to be one that has the requisite sense of urgency....
    She is the Yvette Cooper of this leadership election.

    (Like Yvette, it makes me wonder if she really wants the job).
    If she didn't want the job she could have stayed at the G20 summit rather than trying to return immediately. Given how long she needed to wait for the crew to become available again it would have made better use of everyone's time.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    eek said:

    Liz Truss officially launches her campaign this morning. A chance to unite the right behind her, or to flop badly.

    A campaign that launches AFTER the first round of voting and on the day of the second does not seem to be one that has the requisite sense of urgency....
    She is the Yvette Cooper of this leadership election.

    (Like Yvette, it makes me wonder if she really wants the job).
    If she didn't want the job she could have stayed at the G20 summit rather than trying to return immediately. Given how long she needed to wait for the crew to become available again it would have made better use of everyone's time.
    She probably had to run, if she wants to stay FS.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723
    algarkirk said:

    When Penny supported the “overwhelming anecdotal evidence” (sic) in favour of homeopathy:

    The 16 signatories provide an interesting list of MPs who don't believe in science. Some surprising names.

    https://twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1547474016784506881

    I have no views on the specifics, but there is real evidence of the placebo effect. And compared with some other stuff it is cheap. And it's quite possible that a good number of presenting medical issues are in truth some version of idiopathic disorders, as a good number of people live idiopathic lives so it needs a balanced approach.

    Bedside manner, TLC and virtually inert tablets could well save billions and make people happier.

    Hmm. Doctor's time is not cheap.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,493

    Scott_xP said:

    As it seems likely it is either Rishi or Sunak or Liz, let me make an obvious point.

    Rishi, Lincoln College, Oxford, PPE
    Liz, Merton College, Oxford, PPE

    They need to go the same way as Jeremy Hunt (Magdalen Oxford, PPE) or David Cameron (Brasenose College, Oxford, PPE) or Ed Miliband (Corpus Christi College, Oxford, PPE).

    We know what these wankers are like. PPE = bluffers and duffers and bullshitters.

    I can't remember where I saw it, but someone commented on the diversity of the candidates.

    Rishi and Liz will be the first graduates from either of those Oxford colleges to be PM IIRC...
    True dat:

    https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/oxford-people/british-prime-ministers


    If the wind blows in a sensible direction in due course the leader of Labour - Streeting - and of the SNP - Kate Forbes - would both be Selwyn historians.

  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,001
    FPT:
    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Charles Walker MP was saying earlier that the 1922 Committee might set another bar for the next round, somewhere between 40 and 50 votes. Does anyone know whether this has been put in place?

    'Might? Shouldn't they have sorted all this out before they started?
    I agree, but they always seem to make it up on the hoof.
    That allows for all sorts of exciting possibilities. Next round: the assault course. Then a yard of ale contest, then weeding the gardens of the 1922 Committee.
    They'll end up turning into the Krypton Factor.

    Which means Aaron Bell will be favourite to be Prime Minister.

    I'm okay with this.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270
    I also see that PM is going for the usual approach of I will do the something (that isn't actually possible) to solve the migrant issue

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19193051/mordaunt-stop-channel-crossings-plan/

    Penny Mordaunt vows to halt Channel migrant crossings by cutting off fuel supplies and boats

    Why does no one asked the obvious question of how do you do that and don't you think it's already been tried?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,493
    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    When Penny supported the “overwhelming anecdotal evidence” (sic) in favour of homeopathy:

    The 16 signatories provide an interesting list of MPs who don't believe in science. Some surprising names.

    https://twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1547474016784506881

    I have no views on the specifics, but there is real evidence of the placebo effect. And compared with some other stuff it is cheap. And it's quite possible that a good number of presenting medical issues are in truth some version of idiopathic disorders, as a good number of people live idiopathic lives so it needs a balanced approach.

    Bedside manner, TLC and virtually inert tablets could well save billions and make people happier.

    Hmm. Doctor's time is not cheap.
    Yes. These are the very people who fill their timetable. Especially as a high proportion have time on their hands and little to do.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802

    moonshine said:

    Speccie TV last night. James Forsyth (Rishi was best man at his wedding) looked a little white when his copresenter said the big mo was with PM. Forsyth then claimed 88 was beyond Rishi’s expectations in round 1.

    Interestingly he then said he thinks PM would make Leadsome Chancellor. Given his (undisclosed to viewers) links to Rishi, quite a naughty bit of mischief making there I thought. But it did raise a good question. Who would she really appoint as chancellor? I can imagine her giving the gig to Truss, for an all female downing st and in an attempt to unify the party’s wings.

    Any better guesses?

    Truss too dangerous as Chancellor for a PM premiership. Can resign and try to bring her down at any moment. Your chancellor needs to be someone you are in lockstep with ideally, or at least some form of understanding (Blair/Brown).

    I’d keep Truss as FS or if you want to promote TT to that gig, shift to HS. She probably still needs to have a chunky gig (the LBJ maxim).

    Edit: Leadsom definitely value for a return to cabinet if PM wins though.
    Hunt might be a reasonable choice for a Mordaunt chancellor. He would know it is the best job he will ever get, but is not incompetent. Barclay another one I would not be surprised by. Leadsom does sound very plausible too.

    Not really sure what they do with Sunak, assuming he loses.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    edited July 2022

    Liz Truss officially launches her campaign this morning. A chance to unite the right behind her, or to flop badly.

    A campaign that launches AFTER the first round of voting and on the day of the second does not seem to be one that has the requisite sense of urgency....
    She is the Yvette Cooper of this leadership election.

    (Like Yvette, it makes me wonder if she really wants the job).
    She is Liz Truss. She is absolutely desperate for the job.

    I suspect she probably wanted the circumstances to be a bit different which may account for some of this “lack of urgency”. You have to seize the opportunity when you get it but I’ve always thought Liz envisages herself as a Tory revolutionary in the mold of Thatcher, a leader who is going to be a titan in the party and will lead them to glory and will be eternally remembered (no laughing at the back).

    To be honest a Liz Truss LOTO job would probably have been more appealing for her than stepping in at the fag end of a Boris Johnson premiership. If you lose in 2024 you’re out on your backside having been the shortest serving PM since the Earl of Home.

  • eekeek Posts: 28,270

    eek said:

    Liz Truss officially launches her campaign this morning. A chance to unite the right behind her, or to flop badly.

    A campaign that launches AFTER the first round of voting and on the day of the second does not seem to be one that has the requisite sense of urgency....
    She is the Yvette Cooper of this leadership election.

    (Like Yvette, it makes me wonder if she really wants the job).
    If she didn't want the job she could have stayed at the G20 summit rather than trying to return immediately. Given how long she needed to wait for the crew to become available again it would have made better use of everyone's time.
    She probably had to run, if she wants to stay FS.
    Oh she needed to run - but given the choice between x hours in the air or x hours on the phone from a hotel room - I think staying at the G20 summit and using her phone would have been a way better use of the hours after Bozo quit.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802
    Stocky said:

    When Penny supported the “overwhelming anecdotal evidence” (sic) in favour of homeopathy:

    The 16 signatories provide an interesting list of MPs who don't believe in science. Some surprising names.

    https://twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1547474016784506881

    Mordaunt holds the best chance for the CP at the next election and this is her main plus point. However, I think she has a taste for the eye-catching - she has had to row back from the defining a women stuff and now we have the homeopathy stuff. If I were a CP member I would have doubts about her.
    Which of the candidates would you have no doubts about!? Or least doubts about perhaps.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,474

    This is exactly the sort of western military forklift is what wins artillery heavy wars...

    ...& no one in Western military intelligence noticed that Russia has practiced "unilateral forklift disarmament" for 80 years, until Ukraine war tweets rubbed that fact in their faces🤦‍♂️👇


    https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1547443237518016514

    One of the amusing things about this is seeing 'experts' referring to telehandlers as 'forklifts'. they're very different, and the vehicle shown is most definitely a telehandler.

    Experts, eh? ;)
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Who do you think the the Mail and Express owners and Murdoch want to win the prize of leadership?

    Just asking.....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723
    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    When Penny supported the “overwhelming anecdotal evidence” (sic) in favour of homeopathy:

    The 16 signatories provide an interesting list of MPs who don't believe in science. Some surprising names.

    https://twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1547474016784506881

    I have no views on the specifics, but there is real evidence of the placebo effect. And compared with some other stuff it is cheap. And it's quite possible that a good number of presenting medical issues are in truth some version of idiopathic disorders, as a good number of people live idiopathic lives so it needs a balanced approach.

    Bedside manner, TLC and virtually inert tablets could well save billions and make people happier.

    Hmm. Doctor's time is not cheap.
    Yes. These are the very people who fill their timetable. Especially as a high proportion have time on their hands and little to do.

    Doctors aren't stupid - as you say, they can prescribe what are effectively placebos (which aren't too obviously such).

    But that does not require a trip down the homoeopathy mousehole. And it is not a justification for permitting soi-disant homoeopaths on the NHS, or for demanding it.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802

    Who do you think the the Mail and Express owners and Murdoch want to win the prize of leadership?

    Just asking.....

    Boris?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    This view on Mordaunt is widely shared in Brussels - with one important qualification. One senior EU official tells me she "..was even less qualified than Frost"

    https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1547485658343776259
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,934
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Only Met we need to have confidence in over the next week is the Met Office.

    Pretty sure the current amber alert for extreme heat Sunday-Tuesday will be converted to red alert by tomorrow. Models back to showing 38-40C and a night minimum in the mid 20s on Monday.

    On holiday, in East Anglia, with our Thai family next week. They'll feel quite at home!
    Friends out here are finding at all rather amusing, that the typical British obsession with the weather now extends to the annual 30ºC week.

    Where I am sitting, it’s 40ºC outside at 11am. Thankfully not too humid today.
    But you will spend your day going from air conditioned building to air conditioned building via an air conditioned car.

    And in Britain we don't have air-conditioning in most offices / homes because there is zero need.
    And it’s still patchy in rural Portugal where 2 towns got to 46.3 and 46.2C respectively yesterday. And there are forests available to burn in SW France (as they were also doing yesterday) which don’t exist in the Gulf. So comparing European heatwaves to Middle Eastern normal summers isn’t quite like for like.

    It’s also not just a 30C spell we’re talking about. It’s 2 days in the high 30s as far North as Leeds and a night in the mid 20s, both of which may break all time records.

    Thankfully for our French neighbours not the week of mid 40s that was originally modelled for the Paris basin.

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    edited July 2022

    Who do you think the the Mail and Express owners and Murdoch want to win the prize of leadership?

    Just asking.....

    The Mail are pretty obviously going for Truss. I think it sets their hearts racing that they might get a pound shop Maggie T in charge.

    Express seems to be pretty warm on Penny right now.

    The Sun seems to be bigging up Kemi. This doesn’t surprise me really.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    Jonathan said:

    Not that I place much store by Lord Frost’s judgment:

    Wow. A devastating assessment of @PennyMordaunt from Lord Frost on @TalkTV just now. He says she simply wasn't up to the job as a minister and had to be moved on. Having worked with her closely he has "grave reservations" about her abilities. Crikey!

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1547474927091171329

    The views of a spectacular mediocrity who failed utterly at the only seriously important job he was ever given should not matter very much at all. The problem is that in the Conservative party they do.

    Mourdant is an empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. She is apparently supposed to have charisma, but it appears to be an acquired or specialist taste.

    It's really quite weird to watch.
    She is obviously physically attractive, look at the photos above. So there’s that. This isn’t in dispute - and I’m not prone to fancying her type

    Should it matter? Probably not. Does it matter? Absolutely
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,386
    edited July 2022
    TIL.
    The editor of the Daily Express is a Labour supporter.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    You do have to wonder how Frost ever became such an influential figure.

    He absolutely loves himself.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    Bit odd too as the name thing has been known for a while - on checking, it was outed in Sci Am in spring 2021 and has been chewed over since.

    But what is still odder is that the telescope has no obvious link to Webb - even allowing for its long gestation and the naming in 2002, the project seems to have begun 30 or so years after Webb retired.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802

    You do have to wonder how Frost ever became such an influential figure.

    He absolutely loves himself.

    I know this one. He said down with the Frenchies and up the Union Jack.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Not that I place much store by Lord Frost’s judgment:

    Wow. A devastating assessment of @PennyMordaunt from Lord Frost on @TalkTV just now. He says she simply wasn't up to the job as a minister and had to be moved on. Having worked with her closely he has "grave reservations" about her abilities. Crikey!

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1547474927091171329

    The views of a spectacular mediocrity who failed utterly at the only seriously important job he was ever given should not matter very much at all. The problem is that in the Conservative party they do.

    Mourdant is an empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. She is apparently supposed to have charisma, but it appears to be an acquired or specialist taste.

    It's really quite weird to watch.
    She is obviously physically attractive, look at the photos above. So there’s that. This isn’t in dispute - and I’m not prone to fancying her type

    Should it matter? Probably not. Does it matter? Absolutely
    But, I mean if the criterion is @Leon finds them attractive, we will end up with a small, submissive, large-breasted, non-Caucasian sex worker as PM.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Not that I place much store by Lord Frost’s judgment:

    Wow. A devastating assessment of @PennyMordaunt from Lord Frost on @TalkTV just now. He says she simply wasn't up to the job as a minister and had to be moved on. Having worked with her closely he has "grave reservations" about her abilities. Crikey!

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1547474927091171329

    The views of a spectacular mediocrity who failed utterly at the only seriously important job he was ever given should not matter very much at all. The problem is that in the Conservative party they do.

    Mourdant is an empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. She is apparently supposed to have charisma, but it appears to be an acquired or specialist taste.

    It's really quite weird to watch.
    She is obviously physically attractive, look at the photos above. So there’s that. This isn’t in dispute - and I’m not prone to fancying her type

    Should it matter? Probably not. Does it matter? Absolutely
    You could dial the clock back 15 years and substitute the name Cameron for Mourdant when considering ideas like "empty vessels" and "hopes and dreams" and "charisma"


  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Matthew Parrish made an interesting observation on R4 - in interviews Sunak comes across as defensive and evasive and sounds I’ll at ease. In contrast in conversations with voters he comes across as friendly and natural - so I wonder if he may do better among the constituency associations if he gets that far?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,474

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    He was the administrator who saw Apollo through. Yes, there are many scientists and engineers who deserve mentions. But I'd argue that without Webb, Apollo might have got cancelled after JFK died. He got congress on side - and kept it on side - and befriended Johnson. If Webb had failed, Apollo would have failed. After the Apollo 1 fire he took a lot of the blame personally, protecting both the administration and NASA.

    So he was administrator at the time NASA did its most amazing and noteworthy feat, and he drove it until near the point of victory (he left NASA in 1968).

    Reason enough to have something big named after him IMO.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802

    Matthew Parrish made an interesting observation on R4 - in interviews Sunak comes across as defensive and evasive and sounds I’ll at ease. In contrast in conversations with voters he comes across as friendly and natural - so I wonder if he may do better among the constituency associations if he gets that far?

    He has a record to defend, which is why interviews are worse for him. Most of the others don't, but would do if leader by the GE and it will be through the worst cost of living changes in our lifetimes.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    Frost and Brussels say Penny is inexperienced.

    That will sting but to be honest I think anyone with the slightest smidgeon of sense in them can see that Penny is relatively inexperienced. The whole point about her campaign is you gamble that a fresh face and new way of doing things will help you, and that she will prove good at the job of PM.

    If you want an experienced candidate you want Rishi or Truss. The issue is both are tainted.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    Has Mordaunt had a real job outside politics?

    Hasn't she just lived in a Cameron-like PR/politics bubble since uni?

    Not sure it bodes well tbh.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723

    You do have to wonder how Frost ever became such an influential figure.

    He absolutely loves himself.

    I know this one. He said down with the Frenchies and up the Union Jack.
    Please, please miss, I do too!! The chap who was delighted to use EU law to try and overturn Scottish public health legislation. And argued in favour of the EU in a hearing before the Scottish Parliament.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/apr/30/minimum-alcohol-price-european-court-scottish-judges
    https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2017/11/17/minimum-price-of-50p-on-alcohol-sales-approved-by-the-supreme-court-for-scotland/

    Do I get a gold star too??
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Not that I place much store by Lord Frost’s judgment:

    Wow. A devastating assessment of @PennyMordaunt from Lord Frost on @TalkTV just now. He says she simply wasn't up to the job as a minister and had to be moved on. Having worked with her closely he has "grave reservations" about her abilities. Crikey!

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1547474927091171329

    The views of a spectacular mediocrity who failed utterly at the only seriously important job he was ever given should not matter very much at all. The problem is that in the Conservative party they do.

    Mourdant is an empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. She is apparently supposed to have charisma, but it appears to be an acquired or specialist taste.

    It's really quite weird to watch.
    She is obviously physically attractive, look at the photos above. So there’s that. This isn’t in dispute - and I’m not prone to fancying her type

    Should it matter? Probably not. Does it matter? Absolutely
    But, I mean if the criterion is @Leon finds them attractive, we will end up with a small, submissive, large-breasted, non-Caucasian sex worker as PM.
    why not...I'm sure there's a few of those who've had access to our Tory MPs already.
  • Has Mordaunt had a real job outside politics?

    Hasn't she just lived in a Cameron-like PR/politics bubble since uni?

    Not sure it bodes well tbh.

    Magician’s assistant
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Not that I place much store by Lord Frost’s judgment:

    Wow. A devastating assessment of @PennyMordaunt from Lord Frost on @TalkTV just now. He says she simply wasn't up to the job as a minister and had to be moved on. Having worked with her closely he has "grave reservations" about her abilities. Crikey!

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1547474927091171329

    The views of a spectacular mediocrity who failed utterly at the only seriously important job he was ever given should not matter very much at all. The problem is that in the Conservative party they do.

    Mourdant is an empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. She is apparently supposed to have charisma, but it appears to be an acquired or specialist taste.

    It's really quite weird to watch.
    She is obviously physically attractive, look at the photos above. So there’s that. This isn’t in dispute - and I’m not prone to fancying her type

    Should it matter? Probably not. Does it matter? Absolutely
    But, I mean if the criterion is @Leon finds them attractive, we will end up with a small, submissive, large-breasted, non-Caucasian sex worker as PM.
    Is that so bad?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,277

    kle4 said:

    Its at a s point with Rishi that even if he does really well in the final two anything he says or offers might get dismissed by the members as him acting desperately.

    MPs might yet drift away. Truss vs Mordaunt?

    That's possible, but Truss was also felt to have underwhelmed. She was only 10 MPs ahead of Badenoch on the first ballot.

    MPs may yet decide to send two candidates who are both fresh faces to the membership. Mordaunt v Badenoch.
    That would be a remarkable insight into MPs' collective take on the quality of their own government.
    It would, but it fits with distancing themselves from Johnson, and with the sense that Johnson appointed mediocrities so that his position would be more secure. There are ways to rationalize it.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807

    Has Mordaunt had a real job outside politics?

    Hasn't she just lived in a Cameron-like PR/politics bubble since uni?

    Not sure it bodes well tbh.

    To be fair Cameron, who you cite, was exactly the same and didn’t do a terrible job until he blew everything up on his way out. He was at least the best PM we’ve had since Blair, which I fully recognise is not saying a lot.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,751
    Is today's timetable much the same as yesterday's?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,638
    A little bit of temperature porn for aficionados - Madrid has just had its hottest night since records began.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,474
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    Bit odd too as the name thing has been known for a while - on checking, it was outed in Sci Am in spring 2021 and has been chewed over since.

    But what is still odder is that the telescope has no obvious link to Webb - even allowing for its long gestation and the naming in 2002, the project seems to have begun 30 or so years after Webb retired.
    The Nimitz-class carrier CVN-73 is named after George Washington, who died 180 years before it was ordered, 100 years before the first flight, and 150 years before nuclear power.

    I have no problem with projects honouring dead people who had no direct connection to the project. If anything, there are issues with doing the opposite: e.g. CVN-77 was named USS George H.W. Bush whilst he was still alive, making it a very political statement. The same with its predecessor Ronald Reagan - although at last Bush was a navel aviator who served during the war.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,734

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    Bit odd too as the name thing has been known for a while - on checking, it was outed in Sci Am in spring 2021 and has been chewed over since.

    But what is still odder is that the telescope has no obvious link to Webb - even allowing for its long gestation and the naming in 2002, the project seems to have begun 30 or so years after Webb retired.
    The Nimitz-class carrier CVN-73 is named after George Washington, who died 180 years before it was ordered, 100 years before the first flight, and 150 years before nuclear power.

    I have no problem with projects honouring dead people who had no direct connection to the project. If anything, there are issues with doing the opposite: e.g. CVN-77 was named USS George H.W. Bush whilst he was still alive, making it a very political statement. The same with its predecessor Ronald Reagan - although at last Bush was a navel aviator who served during the war.
    Bush was a naval aviator, not a navel aviator - I'm not sure what the latter is but in conjures some very odd images
    :smiley:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,474
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    Bit odd too as the name thing has been known for a while - on checking, it was outed in Sci Am in spring 2021 and has been chewed over since.

    But what is still odder is that the telescope has no obvious link to Webb - even allowing for its long gestation and the naming in 2002, the project seems to have begun 30 or so years after Webb retired.
    The Nimitz-class carrier CVN-73 is named after George Washington, who died 180 years before it was ordered, 100 years before the first flight, and 150 years before nuclear power.

    I have no problem with projects honouring dead people who had no direct connection to the project. If anything, there are issues with doing the opposite: e.g. CVN-77 was named USS George H.W. Bush whilst he was still alive, making it a very political statement. The same with its predecessor Ronald Reagan - although at last Bush was a navel aviator who served during the war.
    Bush was a naval aviator, not a navel aviator - I'm not sure what the latter is but in conjures some very odd images
    :smiley:
    Ahem. Yes. :)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    edited July 2022

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    He was the administrator who saw Apollo through. Yes, there are many scientists and engineers who deserve mentions. But I'd argue that without Webb, Apollo might have got cancelled after JFK died. He got congress on side - and kept it on side - and befriended Johnson. If Webb had failed, Apollo would have failed. After the Apollo 1 fire he took a lot of the blame personally, protecting both the administration and NASA.

    So he was administrator at the time NASA did its most amazing and noteworthy feat, and he drove it until near the point of victory (he left NASA in 1968).

    Reason enough to have something big named after him IMO.
    'NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe made the decision to name the telescope after NASA administrator James E. Webb.'

    Fancy that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Telescope#Controversy_over_name

    Apart from the controversies surrounding Webb there must be no shortage of brilliant astronomers and astrophysicists to name the telescope after.

    For example, I give you Henrietta Leavitt, whose work provided the key to understanding the scale of the universe. An unsung and worthy person to honour.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Swan_Leavitt
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    Bit odd too as the name thing has been known for a while - on checking, it was outed in Sci Am in spring 2021 and has been chewed over since.

    But what is still odder is that the telescope has no obvious link to Webb - even allowing for its long gestation and the naming in 2002, the project seems to have begun 30 or so years after Webb retired.
    The Nimitz-class carrier CVN-73 is named after George Washington, who died 180 years before it was ordered, 100 years before the first flight, and 150 years before nuclear power.

    I have no problem with projects honouring dead people who had no direct connection to the project. If anything, there are issues with doing the opposite: e.g. CVN-77 was named USS George H.W. Bush whilst he was still alive, making it a very political statement. The same with its predecessor Ronald Reagan - although at last Bush was a navel aviator who served during the war.
    Bush was a naval aviator, not a navel aviator - I'm not sure what the latter is but in conjures some very odd images
    :smiley:
    Good training for being in charge of the nuclear button
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193

    Stocky said:

    When Penny supported the “overwhelming anecdotal evidence” (sic) in favour of homeopathy:

    The 16 signatories provide an interesting list of MPs who don't believe in science. Some surprising names.

    https://twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1547474016784506881

    Mordaunt holds the best chance for the CP at the next election and this is her main plus point. However, I think she has a taste for the eye-catching - she has had to row back from the defining a women stuff and now we have the homeopathy stuff. If I were a CP member I would have doubts about her.
    Which of the candidates would you have no doubts about!? Or least doubts about perhaps.
    In terms of what I'm looking for in a PM I've doubts about all of them. Perhaps Tugendhat or Badenoch (who I backed 18 months ago at 130/1 and mentioned it here) but this has come too early for them I think.

    In terms of who beats Starmer: Mordaunt or perhaps Sunak.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,955
    Watching the Tory right suddenly shit themselves rigid over Mordaunt is remarkable. In no possible world could she be considered a moderate/leftie/Remainy candidate. They're completely lost, pursuing ever greater degrees of ideological purity.

    It suggests that if anyone halfway decent/sane wins, the backbenchers will tear them apart.


    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1547495684093485056
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,764
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    Bit odd too as the name thing has been known for a while - on checking, it was outed in Sci Am in spring 2021 and has been chewed over since.

    But what is still odder is that the telescope has no obvious link to Webb - even allowing for its long gestation and the naming in 2002, the project seems to have begun 30 or so years after Webb retired.
    The Nimitz-class carrier CVN-73 is named after George Washington, who died 180 years before it was ordered, 100 years before the first flight, and 150 years before nuclear power.

    I have no problem with projects honouring dead people who had no direct connection to the project. If anything, there are issues with doing the opposite: e.g. CVN-77 was named USS George H.W. Bush whilst he was still alive, making it a very political statement. The same with its predecessor Ronald Reagan - although at last Bush was a navel aviator who served during the war.
    Bush was a naval aviator, not a navel aviator - I'm not sure what the latter is but in conjures some very odd images
    :smiley:
    A navel-gazer with delusions of grandeur?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    Bit odd too as the name thing has been known for a while - on checking, it was outed in Sci Am in spring 2021 and has been chewed over since.

    But what is still odder is that the telescope has no obvious link to Webb - even allowing for its long gestation and the naming in 2002, the project seems to have begun 30 or so years after Webb retired.
    The Nimitz-class carrier CVN-73 is named after George Washington, who died 180 years before it was ordered, 100 years before the first flight, and 150 years before nuclear power.

    I have no problem with projects honouring dead people who had no direct connection to the project. If anything, there are issues with doing the opposite: e.g. CVN-77 was named USS George H.W. Bush whilst he was still alive, making it a very political statement. The same with its predecessor Ronald Reagan - although at last Bush was a navel aviator who served during the war.
    Fair enough, though one wonders what happens with the navel fluff - must make visibility poor ... I was more thinking that if Webb was so important why didn't they name a ground facility, especially an office block, for him decades before? Plenty of astronomers and cosmologists to choose from, not to mention the proverbial rocket scientists.

    And ships is tricky, because they hand names down in their own right, and one is commemorating that as much as the original dedicatee - the first GW was an anti-piracy frigate c. 1800 ...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,322

    This view on Mordaunt is widely shared in Brussels - with one important qualification. One senior EU official tells me she "..was even less qualified than Frost"

    https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1547485658343776259

    After the current incumbent and the threat of Truss, qualification and competence are both relative.

    I get the impression that the nation, and not just PB, is excited to have an infinitely improved Prime Minister to replace the circus we have just witnessed. And a magician's assistant to boot!
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    Is today's timetable much the same as yesterday's?

    Yes
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    No Remainer will ever take office for the next 30 years
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,243
    edited July 2022

    Not that I place much store by Lord Frost’s judgment:

    Wow. A devastating assessment of @PennyMordaunt from Lord Frost on @TalkTV just now. He says she simply wasn't up to the job as a minister and had to be moved on. Having worked with her closely he has "grave reservations" about her abilities. Crikey!

    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1547474927091171329

    Something tells me the only leader Lord Frost will be happy with is... Lord Frost (or plain old Mr Frost as he'll have to become)

    Good morning PB.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,751
    At 10pm on Monday and Tuesday night the forecast is, here, to be 25C and 24C respectively.

    Sounds awful.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,277
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Liz Truss officially launches her campaign this morning. A chance to unite the right behind her, or to flop badly.

    A campaign that launches AFTER the first round of voting and on the day of the second does not seem to be one that has the requisite sense of urgency....
    She is the Yvette Cooper of this leadership election.

    (Like Yvette, it makes me wonder if she really wants the job).
    If she didn't want the job she could have stayed at the G20 summit rather than trying to return immediately. Given how long she needed to wait for the crew to become available again it would have made better use of everyone's time.
    She probably had to run, if she wants to stay FS.
    Oh she needed to run - but given the choice between x hours in the air or x hours on the phone from a hotel room - I think staying at the G20 summit and using her phone would have been a way better use of the hours after Bozo quit.
    I don't think she had to run. If she really wanted a particular job - FS or CoE - then she could have gone to another leading contender and formed a pact with them, Blair/Brown style.

    A Sunak/Truss deal before the start of the contest would have had a chance of steamrolling the competition.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    edited July 2022

    Has Mordaunt had a real job outside politics?

    Hasn't she just lived in a Cameron-like PR/politics bubble since uni?

    Not sure it bodes well tbh.

    To be fair Cameron, who you cite, was exactly the same and didn’t do a terrible job until he blew everything up on his way out. He was at least the best PM we’ve had since Blair, which I fully recognise is not saying a lot.
    Lol, Cameron who didn't do a terrible job until he did a terrible job.

    Cameron was kept in check a bit by the LDs. Austerity was a terrible mistake. Even Leavers would probably agree that the Brexit referendum was badly managed with no plan whatsoever for a Leave win. 'Not quite as bad as his two successors' might be Cameron's political epitaph.

    Every PM since Blair has been progressively worse. Surely, that trend will have to stop soon.

    (Checks... oh, Braverman is still in the mix.)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,519

    Matthew Parrish made an interesting observation on R4 - in interviews Sunak comes across as defensive and evasive and sounds I’ll at ease. In contrast in conversations with voters he comes across as friendly and natural - so I wonder if he may do better among the constituency associations if he gets that far?

    I don't dislike him and can well imagine the personal effect you describe, but in practice he wouldn't really be meeting that many personally during 5 weeks of mid-summer campaigning - they're omre likely to set him at a hustings, where he'll be under pressure from his rival.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723
    Leon said:

    No Remainer will ever take office for the next 30 years

    Ahem. Some qualification needed. Scotland and NI. Already.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    Leon said:

    No Remainer will ever take office for the next 30 years

    That's a keeper. Might not have to keep it too long.

    (Tbf you might as well dispense with the 30 year qualification - by 2052 which candidates will have been active in 2016?)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,610

    Frost and Brussels say Penny is inexperienced.

    That will sting but to be honest I think anyone with the slightest smidgeon of sense in them can see that Penny is relatively inexperienced. The whole point about her campaign is you gamble that a fresh face and new way of doing things will help you, and that she will prove good at the job of PM.

    If you want an experienced candidate you want Rishi or Truss. The issue is both are tainted.

    If Lord Useless has "grave reservations" then she gets my thumbs up.

  • eekeek Posts: 28,270
    Scott_xP said:

    Watching the Tory right suddenly shit themselves rigid over Mordaunt is remarkable. In no possible world could she be considered a moderate/leftie/Remainy candidate. They're completely lost, pursuing ever greater degrees of ideological purity.

    It suggests that if anyone halfway decent/sane wins, the backbenchers will tear them apart.


    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1547495684093485056

    The Tory party has 2 problems

    1) Bozo was the person who created the current electoral majority and looks to be the only person who could talk to the two parts (safe southern seats and Red Wall switchers).
    2) Bozo also seems to have created a parliamentary party that is far more ideological than was previously the case following his removal of various people in 2019. That issue is going to become very clear for the next leader who really has a choice of being ideologically pure with problems with some seats but an easy Parliamentary life or pragmatic which may make it easier to keep some seats but will make Parliament harder.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,474

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    He was the administrator who saw Apollo through. Yes, there are many scientists and engineers who deserve mentions. But I'd argue that without Webb, Apollo might have got cancelled after JFK died. He got congress on side - and kept it on side - and befriended Johnson. If Webb had failed, Apollo would have failed. After the Apollo 1 fire he took a lot of the blame personally, protecting both the administration and NASA.

    So he was administrator at the time NASA did its most amazing and noteworthy feat, and he drove it until near the point of victory (he left NASA in 1968).

    Reason enough to have something big named after him IMO.
    'NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe made the decision to name the telescope after NASA administrator James E. Webb.'

    Fancy that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Telescope#Controversy_over_name

    Apart from the controversies surrounding Webb there must be no shortage of brilliant astronomers and astrophysicists to name the telescope after.

    For example, I give you Henrietta Leavitt, whose work provided the key to understanding the scale of the universe. An unsung and worthy person to honour.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Swan_Leavitt
    I'd still argue that Webb was worthy of the telescope's name.

    But your last link has sent me down a little rabbit-hole. Henrietta Leavitt's dad was an engineer named 'Erasmus Darwin Leavitt Jr', who was born in 1836. Erasmus Darwin was an English physician and proto-scientitist who really deserves more recognition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Darwin

    Erasmus' grandchildren included Charles Darwin and Francis Galton; it seems Erasmus Darwin Leavitt Jr must have been named after his dad (sr), who in turn must have been named after a fairly obscure English physician. Unless it was a coincidence...
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    edited July 2022
    @Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
  • Lord Frosty certainly knows incompetence when he sees it (in the mirror)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    No Remainer will ever take office for the next 30 years

    Ahem. Some qualification needed. Scotland and NI. Already.
    Sure, in council/parish elections, but they don’t count. In the supreme national elections I don’t believe Remainers will be electorally acceptable for a generation or two. The instinctive British reaction will be revulsion, like that for Catholics after the Reformation, and that lasted two centuries

    We may see anti-Remainer riots like the Gordon Riots
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,243
    JACK_W said:

    Watching the Daily Mail realise they've backed the wrong horse in Liz Truss and pivot to adoration of PM4PM will be a delight and hilarious in equal measure.

    In Liz We [Don't]Trusst
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193
    JACK_W said:

    Watching the Daily Mail realise they've backed the wrong horse in Liz Truss and pivot to adoration of PM4PM will be a delight and hilarious in equal measure.

    I have two or three relatives who are avid Mail readers and who all rate Trust ("wonderful trade deals") and have doubts about Mordaunt ("she has no experience"). Yet they deny they are influenced by the rag.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,322
    In the interests of continuity she should avoiding changing too many Cabinet posts. Buckland should stay as Welsh Secretary and...err...
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807

    Has Mordaunt had a real job outside politics?

    Hasn't she just lived in a Cameron-like PR/politics bubble since uni?

    Not sure it bodes well tbh.

    To be fair Cameron, who you cite, was exactly the same and didn’t do a terrible job until he blew everything up on his way out. He was at least the best PM we’ve had since Blair, which I fully recognise is not saying a lot.
    Lol, Cameron who didn't do a terrible job until he did a terrible job.

    Cameron was kept in check a bit by the LDs. Austerity was a terrible mistake. Even Leavers would probably agree that the Brexit referendum was badly managed with no plan whatsoever for a Leave win. 'Not quite as bad as his two successors' might be Cameron's political epitaph.

    Every PM since Blair has been progressively worse. Surely, that trend will have to stop soon.

    (Checks... oh, Braverman is still in the mix.)
    I don’t judge Blair purely on Iraq and I don’t judge Cameron purely on Brexit. Both sully their leaderships but it is possible to assess their other records independently. We disagree on austerity which is a matter of political and economic debate for instance.

    I’m quite happy to admit it’s all been downhill since Cameron though.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    No Remainer will ever take office for the next 30 years

    Ahem. Some qualification needed. Scotland and NI. Already.
    Sure, in council/parish elections, but they don’t count. In the supreme national elections I don’t believe Remainers will be electorally acceptable for a generation or two. The instinctive British reaction will be revulsion, like that for Catholics after the Reformation, and that lasted two centuries

    We may see anti-Remainer riots like the Gordon Riots
    "national". But of course you are just being your usual parochial self.

    Given the polling on Brexit, I'm sure some of us are already preparing to remaind you of your original comment.

    Purely coincidentally, I need to empty the smelly water in the rainwater butt in anticipation of the rain coming tomorrow. Have fun, everyone.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    The idea that anyone has this contest sewn up is nonsense. Any of the top 4 could win.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Liz Truss officially launches her campaign this morning. A chance to unite the right behind her, or to flop badly.

    A campaign that launches AFTER the first round of voting and on the day of the second does not seem to be one that has the requisite sense of urgency....
    She is the Yvette Cooper of this leadership election.

    (Like Yvette, it makes me wonder if she really wants the job).
    If she didn't want the job she could have stayed at the G20 summit rather than trying to return immediately. Given how long she needed to wait for the crew to become available again it would have made better use of everyone's time.
    She probably had to run, if she wants to stay FS.
    Oh she needed to run - but given the choice between x hours in the air or x hours on the phone from a hotel room - I think staying at the G20 summit and using her phone would have been a way better use of the hours after Bozo quit.
    I don't think she had to run. If she really wanted a particular job - FS or CoE - then she could have gone to another leading contender and formed a pact with them, Blair/Brown style.

    A Sunak/Truss deal before the start of the contest would have had a chance of steamrolling the competition.
    If you tie your horse to someone else it only works if that rider wins. And Sunak definitely isn't the sure fire winner many people expected him to be.

    It will be interesting to see what happens today but if Sunak doesn't hit 110+ votes I think he has a problem...
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    No Remainer will ever take office for the next 30 years

    Ahem. Some qualification needed. Scotland and NI. Already.
    Sure, in council/parish elections, but they don’t count. In the supreme national elections I don’t believe Remainers will be electorally acceptable for a generation or two. The instinctive British reaction will be revulsion, like that for Catholics after the Reformation, and that lasted two centuries

    We may see anti-Remainer riots like the Gordon Riots
    Very unlike you to overreact @Leon
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,193
    Leon said:

    It would certainly diversify the candidates list


    Rishi Sunak, 46, Oxford, Chancellor of the Exchequer
    Liz Truss, 48, Oxford, Foreign Secretary
    Jeremy Hunt, 51, Oxford, ex Health Minister
    Ping, 21, Rainbow 4 go-go bar, “soapy soapy time”

    Brilliant. She could select her cabinet via the novel use of ping pong balls.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Taz said:

    Talking of woke, as we tend to, amid the joy at the pictures from the JWST comes the revelation the telescope is homophobic.

    https://www.intomore.com/other/homophobic-telescope-reveals-first-hi-res-images-deep-space/

    This is all well and good. Webb was not a 'nice' man by the standards of our time. By the standards of the time he was living in, he was okay. But even for the standards of *our* time, he does not appear to have been an ogre. He also drove the projects that took America to the Moon, both in NASA and congress.

    So keep it as the James Webb Space Telescope, but have conversations about how our society has changed over the years. And, importantly, how those changes can be reversed. Also, how people can be good and bad; and how much should the 'bad' discount the good they do?
    Half a mo.

    James Webb was not a scientist, he was an administrator, a government flunkey. He was a Hacker, an Appleby, a Woolley.

    That is enough reason to change the name.

    There is absolutely no reason to name a telescope after an administrator.

    It the telescope is to be named after a person, let it be a scientist or an engineer.
    He was the administrator who saw Apollo through. Yes, there are many scientists and engineers who deserve mentions. But I'd argue that without Webb, Apollo might have got cancelled after JFK died. He got congress on side - and kept it on side - and befriended Johnson. If Webb had failed, Apollo would have failed. After the Apollo 1 fire he took a lot of the blame personally, protecting both the administration and NASA.

    So he was administrator at the time NASA did its most amazing and noteworthy feat, and he drove it until near the point of victory (he left NASA in 1968).

    Reason enough to have something big named after him IMO.
    'NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe made the decision to name the telescope after NASA administrator James E. Webb.'

    Fancy that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Telescope#Controversy_over_name

    Apart from the controversies surrounding Webb there must be no shortage of brilliant astronomers and astrophysicists to name the telescope after.

    For example, I give you Henrietta Leavitt, whose work provided the key to understanding the scale of the universe. An unsung and worthy person to honour.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Swan_Leavitt
    I'd still argue that Webb was worthy of the telescope's name.

    But your last link has sent me down a little rabbit-hole. Henrietta Leavitt's dad was an engineer named 'Erasmus Darwin Leavitt Jr', who was born in 1836. Erasmus Darwin was an English physician and proto-scientitist who really deserves more recognition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Darwin

    Erasmus' grandchildren included Charles Darwin and Francis Galton; it seems Erasmus Darwin Leavitt Jr must have been named after his dad (sr), who in turn must have been named after a fairly obscure English physician. Unless it was a coincidence...
    Obscure = you had never heard of him. Loves Of The Plants was a massive bestseller.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    Andy_JS said:

    The idea that anyone has this contest sewn up is nonsense. Any of the top 4 could win.

    It’s not sewn up but Mordaunt has the momentum and the members. She is. - rightly - a strong favourite. She’s Man City ten weeks from the end of the season with a 7 point lead

    The others need her to fuck up and/or devise the perfect storm of opposition, by uniting around an alternative
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    Leon said:

    JACK_W said:

    Watching the Daily Mail realise they've backed the wrong horse in Liz Truss and pivot to adoration of PM4PM will be a delight and hilarious in equal measure.

    Yes

    Why are they so anti-Mordaunt? She’s a tiny bit Woke but not enough to produce this bile

    I think it’s snobbery, pure and simple. She’s from a working class background, went to Reading, etc. Fuck the Mail
    75% of the Mail’s output seems to be raging against wokeness surely (just like “political correctness gone mad” before it). If Penny really is ‘woke’ or at least has a reputation for being so (I remain to be instructed on what she has done that has been so awful and evil) then they will try to rip her to shreds. They will relish it.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    No Remainer will ever take office for the next 30 years

    Ahem. Some qualification needed. Scotland and NI. Already.
    Sure, in council/parish elections, but they don’t count. In the supreme national elections I don’t believe Remainers will be electorally acceptable for a generation or two. The instinctive British reaction will be revulsion, like that for Catholics after the Reformation, and that lasted two centuries

    We may see anti-Remainer riots like the Gordon Riots
    You do talk a load of shit sometimes. Everyone with half a brain realises Brexit was a pile of poo. If you believe that any of the front runners genuinely believe in Brexit now you are as gullible as the most braindead caricature of a thickarse Leave fanatic. You will find that in as little as 2 years no-one will want to talk about it other than that brain of Britain, Nadine Dorries. They will all be talking about how we can maximise trading with Europe and trying to woo the younger voter.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    Liz Truss campaign launch 10am

    Voting takes place 11:30 - 13:30, result around 15:00 - a couple of hours earlier than yesterday.
This discussion has been closed.