Not that I place much store by Lord Frost’s judgment:
Wow. A devastating assessment of @PennyMordaunt from Lord Frost on @TalkTV just now. He says she simply wasn't up to the job as a minister and had to be moved on. Having worked with her closely he has "grave reservations" about her abilities. Crikey!
The views of a spectacular mediocrity who failed utterly at the only seriously important job he was ever given should not matter very much at all. The problem is that in the Conservative party they do.
Mourdant is an empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. She is apparently supposed to have charisma, but it appears to be an acquired or specialist taste.
It's really quite weird to watch.
Well, they could vote for Kemi instead, another empty vessel into which Tories seem to be projecting all their hopes and dreams. It makes a change from Sunak, who used to be the empty vessel Tories projected their hopes and dreams into…
I'm reminded of Ruth Davidson, who was elected in large part for not having the very definite policy position (indy for Scons) of her main opponent, Murdo Fraser, as well as for having a certain overall persona. Though Ms Mordaunt doesn't seem to have the experience of fronting things that LAdy Davidson then had as a news presenter, and of which she made great use.
Sad lack of mounting farm animals thus far, but who knows what they get up to in their spare time.
You're thinking of the LDs (late prop: Rennie W), I think? I did suspect that the media bought some of those hormone sprays for a surreptitious squirt in the background when he was the photocall du jour.
The Tory tractor enthusiasts are down south AFAIK.
Edit: apols: got caught by the ambiguity. Yes, re the other meaning, Ms D as she was then was certainly snapped doing the cowboy act with at least one unfortunate farm animal.
I'm not entirely convinced by Penny, on the one hand she's clearly switched on and a relatively good communicator. However, I don't know what she stands for, definitely feels like a blank sheet of paper onto which the great and powerful in the party are projecting their own image of what they want the next leader to be.
The reason I'm in favour of Kemi is because we have got one chance to beat Starmer in 2024 and it's going to need someone who actually stands for something and gives people something to vote in favour of to actually win. Penny doesn't do that, she's going to present the voters with that blank sheet of paper and try to win on a battle personalities, but at the same time as being in recession, being the Tory party which is now a big net drag after Boris and against Starmer who has got enough name recognition at this point to make a go of it and come out on top.
Penny, to me, seems like the "manager decline" choice for that Tories, admitting that we've got no policies or nothing positive to deliver to the nation. Kemi comes in with ideas that can turn into serious policies and give voters something vote in favour of.
It's definitely a riskier strategy but ultimately the Tory party needs to stand for something other than pretending to be second coming of Mrs Thatcher as Liz and Penny are attempting to project.
I don't know what Kemi's personality is like at all or if she has any real charisma but for me the fact that she's got ideas is winning. None of the other candidates seem to know what they want to do with the job other than occupy No. 10 for just under two years before being booted out by a Labour/SNP/LD coalition. It will be Boris but a bit more competent, or at least fewer scandals. The MPs must get Kemi onto the members ballot so she can get out there on the national stage and pitch her policy based vision against the bland managed declinism coming from whoever the other candidate is.
I think if she gets that chance it will be Dave vs Davis again, the favourite will find themselves pitching a nothing platform against a positive vision of the nation backed by ideas that make sense to ordinary people and she'll take the win.
My gut instinct tells me Kemi is good.
She's bright, brave and interesting - yes, she could bomb and fall flat on her face (like all the others) but I'm willing to take a punt.
I think the Conservatives have to take some chances to renew the vision and leadership for the country after 12 years.
I can’t see the Tory membership changing their mind over Mordaunt regardless of her alleged woke friendly attitude .
Sunak seems to have annoyed sufficient members to have zip chance of winning so effectively it’s game over .
I don't get the hate for PM. She is a bit old school Tory. Brexit before it was fashionable, pro-military, patriotic, pro-business and free markets and pragmatic rather than doctrinaire on social issues.
Isn't that the point? The Tories aren't Conservative any more.
It’s funny how we were happy to stick rainbows on everything and clap for carers. Didn’t hear any complaints about that from the anti woke brigade
I thought clapping for carers was fucking stupid. I refused.
I thought so too.
I am happy to wear a Ukrainian flag badge though because a Ukrainian friend of mine tells me that he and people in his country really appreciate it. They are and isolated and embattled nation terrified that the free world will lose interest and wearing a Ukrainian flag shows that one person at least does not do so or has not done so yet anyway.
It’s funny how we were happy to stick rainbows on everything and clap for carers. Didn’t hear any complaints about that from the anti woke brigade
Actually, I did. I didn't mind one clap but then as @Dura_Ace said (who I rarely agree with) it all became a bit Juche. I have also criticised OTT poppy fascism.
Woke is a function of disproportionately and dogma, not absolutes.
We should be good at that in this country. We are not Americans.
A Kemi/Penny showdown in the final two is possible then?
It’s surely got to be possible. If Kemi leapfrogs Truss and Penny leapfrogs Rishi, it is quite difficult to see a route for either Rishi or Liz to the final two.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
I didn't say it @Leon did and I agree with you. I was quoting him.
His statements were contradictory. He states it is rampant, but then states all of us who don't believe it is a problem generally haven't encountered it. I pointed out that we have encountered it (as you have pointed out) and for most of us it is mildly annoying and we move on. There will be times when this is not true and it causes real issues, as has always been the case with political correctness.
It really annoys me, but I don't rant on and on about it day after day.
Ah, gotcha. That makes sense.
I guess because there are still plenty of people who aren't in a corporate environment, and live in a relatively rural area where it's less likely to be encountered?
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'
A self-ordained professor’s tongue Too serious to fool Spouted out that liberty Is just equality in school “Equality,” I spoke the word As if a wedding vow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
I was reasonably impressed with Tom Tugemhadt’s R4 interview today. He seemed to have a much better grasp on the complexities of energy, environmental and national security than the others and actually made a case for tax cutting beyond “because it’s Conservative”. HY is right I’m afraid, he might be your best PM you never had.
Yes if I was allowed to hand pick the PM from this shortlist it would be a straightforward choice to go with him. Particularly with Russia and China being what they are, and the very real risk that Trump gets given another crack at breaking up NATO. The next PM should make it their #1 priority to ensure Biden’s successor is boxed into a corner on NATO and Ukraine.
Surely Tugendhat drops out if Braverman goes. Can't see many transfers from her to him.
He seems determined to stay in.
Every round you stay in, and every vote you garner pushes you further up the greasy pole. All six have Cabinet posts if they want them (unfortunately in the case of Braverman). Especially if it's a Mordaunt Cabinet.
If this verifies, and it is getting closer, this will dominate the news for days. Incredible stuff
These are lethal temperatures and many will die
I think this is an outlier prediction that’s been cherry picked for headlines. All the prediction services I can find are going for 36 or 37 °C . Which is quite bad enough...
Indeed. GFS 18z throwing out fantasy charts. It’s going to be disgustingly hot. But not that hot. As Leon knows.
No I don’t. These predictions are now in the more-reliable time frame. Less than 7 days
Is it likely? No. It is possible? Unfortunately yes
Is it likely? No. It is possible? No.
So @Benpointer knows more than the most sophisticated weather models like GFS, ECM etc (which all form the basis of met office forecasts)
I accurately predict that if anyone is going to be a harbinger of doom it will be @Leon
By the way @Leon, @Benpointer does not need to be an expert to know that weather forecasting is generally accurate to 48 hours max in UK, though this becomes easier in periods of dominant high pressure. I can also say with 100% accuracy that you are not a scientist.
Neither are you with an ignorant statement like that. Forecast accuracy is not a categorical measure, it tends to decline relatively evenly over time. So a 96 hour format will be less accurate than one at 48 hours, but improvements in weather forecasting have been phenomenal over recent decades. This heatwave has been well forecast a long way in advance - though there will remain uncertainty in the peak temperature even on the day itself.
I'm not entirely convinced by Penny, on the one hand she's clearly switched on and a relatively good communicator. However, I don't know what she stands for, definitely feels like a blank sheet of paper onto which the great and powerful in the party are projecting their own image of what they want the next leader to be.
The reason I'm in favour of Kemi is because we have got one chance to beat Starmer in 2024 and it's going to need someone who actually stands for something and gives people something to vote in favour of to actually win. Penny doesn't do that, she's going to present the voters with that blank sheet of paper and try to win on a battle personalities, but at the same time as being in recession, being the Tory party which is now a big net drag after Boris and against Starmer who has got enough name recognition at this point to make a go of it and come out on top.
Penny, to me, seems like the "manager decline" choice for that Tories, admitting that we've got no policies or nothing positive to deliver to the nation. Kemi comes in with ideas that can turn into serious policies and give voters something vote in favour of.
It's definitely a riskier strategy but ultimately the Tory party needs to stand for something other than pretending to be second coming of Mrs Thatcher as Liz and Penny are attempting to project.
I don't know what Kemi's personality is like at all or if she has any real charisma but for me the fact that she's got ideas is winning. None of the other candidates seem to know what they want to do with the job other than occupy No. 10 for just under two years before being booted out by a Labour/SNP/LD coalition. It will be Boris but a bit more competent, or at least fewer scandals. The MPs must get Kemi onto the members ballot so she can get out there on the national stage and pitch her policy based vision against the bland managed declinism coming from whoever the other candidate is.
I think if she gets that chance it will be Dave vs Davis again, the favourite will find themselves pitching a nothing platform against a positive vision of the nation backed by ideas that make sense to ordinary people and she'll take the win.
The Tories can win the next election. Or be crushed. We're moving forward as a society - thanks to Covid - yet most of the contenders and the selectorate seem obsessed by the past.
So its a choice. Pick someone godawful and negative like Truss or Braverman (stop laughing at the back). Pick someone shiny and bereft of ideas who ultimately will pivot to knee-jerk like Mordaunt and (probably) Sunak will. Or go for change.
Tugendhat overtly set his stall out over there. Its just that he is sleep-inducingly dull. When compared to Badenoch who represents a radically different vision for the party and all of the possibilities for the country that opens up.
Personally I'd go with Sunak. He will be competent and run a sensational PR machine to sell the positives. And as I expect he will do what he can to balance the economic mess with the need to invest I expect there would be positives to spin.
But the exciting prospect is Kemi. I think Labour wouldn't have the first clue how to combat her.
St Andrews really is just too easy for the modern pros now. 3 woods off the tee to drive a par 4 by even those who aren't in the worlds best.
Not easy if the wind blows! Which it normally would on at least one of four days, although unlikely this time around.
That's it, its only defence is now hoping that the weather is very poor.
It's coastal, so wouldn't an onshore or offshore breeze be expected most days, on top of the overall air movement?
It needs to be really bad now to offer a stiff challenge. Short course, wide fairways, massive greens. Only defence is a few bad bunkers and praying the weather is horrendously bad
St Andrews really is just too easy for the modern pros now. 3 woods off the tee to drive a par 4 by even those who aren't in the worlds best.
Ah, they've started the Open without me having backed anyone. Rory to lead for three days before choking on the fourth, again? Tiger to announce his retirement? What's Leon forecasting as the weather for St Andrews on Sunday?
I was reasonably impressed with Tom Tugemhadt’s R4 interview today. He seemed to have a much better grasp on the complexities of energy, environmental and national security than the others and actually made a case for tax cutting beyond “because it’s Conservative”. HY is right I’m afraid, he might be your best PM you never had.
Something I can agree with HY on. When HY also admits that Boris Johnson was the worst PM we actually did have, he and I will be more aligned.
It’s funny how we were happy to stick rainbows on everything and clap for carers. Didn’t hear any complaints about that from the anti woke brigade
Actually, I did. I didn't mind one clap but then as @Dura_Ace said (who I rarely agree with) it all became a bit Juche. I have also criticised OTT poppy fascism.
Woke is a function of disproportionately and dogma, not absolutes.
We should be good at that in this country. We are not Americans.
As someone on the other side of this debate generally to you @Casino_Royale I rather like that post. Agree 100%.
If this verifies, and it is getting closer, this will dominate the news for days. Incredible stuff
These are lethal temperatures and many will die
Jeez. There's a 44°C on the coast there. That heat with our humidity and a sea breeze? Come to Northumberland. There's a 23 over us.
Going on a half day boat trip tomorrow in the Firth of Forth - 20 degrees, almost flat calm, fairly cloudy. Where's this heatwave you're all getting worked up about?
Slightly chilly yesterday late afternoon in Cumbria. Thin jumper weather, and some rain. Cool and plenty of cloud today.
If this verifies, and it is getting closer, this will dominate the news for days. Incredible stuff
These are lethal temperatures and many will die
I think this is an outlier prediction that’s been cherry picked for headlines. All the prediction services I can find are going for 36 or 37 °C . Which is quite bad enough...
Indeed. GFS 18z throwing out fantasy charts. It’s going to be disgustingly hot. But not that hot. As Leon knows.
No I don’t. These predictions are now in the more-reliable time frame. Less than 7 days
Is it likely? No. It is possible? Unfortunately yes
Is it likely? No. It is possible? No.
So @Benpointer knows more than the most sophisticated weather models like GFS, ECM etc (which all form the basis of met office forecasts)
I accurately predict that if anyone is going to be a harbinger of doom it will be @Leon
By the way @Leon, @Benpointer does not need to be an expert to know that weather forecasting is generally accurate to 48 hours max in UK, though this becomes easier in periods of dominant high pressure. I can also say with 100% accuracy that you are not a scientist.
Neither are you with an ignorant statement like that. Forecast accuracy is not a categorical measure, it tends to decline relatively evenly over time. So a 96 hour format will be less accurate than one at 48 hours, but improvements in weather forecasting have been phenomenal over recent decades. This heatwave has been well forecast a long way in advance - though there will remain uncertainty in the peak temperature even on the day itself.
St Andrews really is just too easy for the modern pros now. 3 woods off the tee to drive a par 4 by even those who aren't in the worlds best.
Not easy if the wind blows! Which it normally would on at least one of four days, although unlikely this time around.
That's it, its only defence is hoping that the weather is very poor.
Look at the list of winners it produces - it is one of the best tests of golf around still, 6 of the last 9 winners the best in the world at the time, then Daly the longest hitter, Oosthuizen a great iron player and regular major contender, and Johnson an accurate driver and great wedge player. No other course has a better record of getting quality winners.
Zach Johnson Louis Oosthuizen Tiger Tiger Daly Faldo Seve Nicklaus Nicklaus
If this verifies, and it is getting closer, this will dominate the news for days. Incredible stuff
These are lethal temperatures and many will die
I think this is an outlier prediction that’s been cherry picked for headlines. All the prediction services I can find are going for 36 or 37 °C . Which is quite bad enough...
Indeed. GFS 18z throwing out fantasy charts. It’s going to be disgustingly hot. But not that hot. As Leon knows.
No I don’t. These predictions are now in the more-reliable time frame. Less than 7 days
Is it likely? No. It is possible? Unfortunately yes
Is it likely? No. It is possible? No.
So @Benpointer knows more than the most sophisticated weather models like GFS, ECM etc (which all form the basis of met office forecasts)
Dear oh dear, if they form the basis of Met Office forecasts why are the Met Office forcecasting a UK maximum of 38°C?
Indeed. Because single model runs / permutations are NOT forecasts. They are raw output from a computer of which there will be dozens more before Tuesday!
As Leon knows.
Hundreds more every six hours, but it's not normal to have forecasts of 40+C within the ensemble envelope at these lead times.
It’s funny how we were happy to stick rainbows on everything and clap for carers. Didn’t hear any complaints about that from the anti woke brigade
I thought clapping for carers was fucking stupid. I refused.
Same, I didn't partake I found it very mawkish.
That and all my neighbours went out to clap and cheer but then were clearly breaking lockdown and didn't really give a fuck about Covid. As an NHS worker seeing this repeated hypocrisy really riled me up.
If this verifies, and it is getting closer, this will dominate the news for days. Incredible stuff
These are lethal temperatures and many will die
I think this is an outlier prediction that’s been cherry picked for headlines. All the prediction services I can find are going for 36 or 37 °C . Which is quite bad enough...
Indeed. GFS 18z throwing out fantasy charts. It’s going to be disgustingly hot. But not that hot. As Leon knows.
No I don’t. These predictions are now in the more-reliable time frame. Less than 7 days
Is it likely? No. It is possible? Unfortunately yes
Is it likely? No. It is possible? No.
So @Benpointer knows more than the most sophisticated weather models like GFS, ECM etc (which all form the basis of met office forecasts)
I accurately predict that if anyone is going to be a harbinger of doom it will be @Leon
By the way @Leon, @Benpointer does not need to be an expert to know that weather forecasting is generally accurate to 48 hours max in UK, though this becomes easier in periods of dominant high pressure. I can also say with 100% accuracy that you are not a scientist.
Neither are you with an ignorant statement like that. Forecast accuracy is not a categorical measure, it tends to decline relatively evenly over time. So a 96 hour format will be less accurate than one at 48 hours, but improvements in weather forecasting have been phenomenal over recent decades. This heatwave has been well forecast a long way in advance - though there will remain uncertainty in the peak temperature even on the day itself.
I can’t see the Tory membership changing their mind over Mordaunt regardless of her alleged woke friendly attitude .
Sunak seems to have annoyed sufficient members to have zip chance of winning so effectively it’s game over .
I don't get the hate for PM. She is a bit old school Tory. Brexit before it was fashionable, pro-military, patriotic, pro-business and free markets and pragmatic rather than doctrinaire on social issues.
I’m reserving judgement on Mordaunt . Will she do EU hate on steroids or be a bit more pragmatic and realize that better relations are important .
On first impressions I find her quite charismatic . Miss Moneypenny Bondish ! And she has great hair ! Frost laying into her is a big plus .
And she’ll surely rid the cabinet of the Bozo arse lickers .
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'
A self-ordained professor’s tongue Too serious to fool Spouted out that liberty Is just equality in school “Equality,” I spoke the word As if a wedding vow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
That's why Dylan is a genius. He'd be great on here.
St Andrews really is just too easy for the modern pros now. 3 woods off the tee to drive a par 4 by even those who aren't in the worlds best.
Not easy if the wind blows! Which it normally would on at least one of four days, although unlikely this time around.
That's it, its only defence is hoping that the weather is very poor.
Look at the list of winners it produces - it is one of the best tests of golf around still, 6 of the last 9 winners the best in the world at the time, then Daly the longest hitter, Oosthuizen a great iron player and regular major contender, and Johnson an accurate driver and great wedge player. No other course has a better record of getting quality winners.
Zach Johnson Louis Oosthuizen Tiger Tiger Daly Faldo Seve Nicklaus Nicklaus
Lol you are talking about golf from mostly golfers from 20+ years ago. Modern pros are murdering this course. Doesn't mean the best golfer in the world won't win, but it is a joke when a 50+ year old senior tour player is casually driving par 4s in 1.
Unless the weather get bad its going to be -15 plus that wins this.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
We're back to the Woke Definition Paradox: wokeism is defined by its detractors as unhealthy obsession with social issues (eg playing identity politics) - it's axiomatic that it is therefore Bad, even if you completely support all the societal changes that . If you define it - as many do - as just being the underlying pace of societal change, then of course you won't see what the fuss is about.
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
Regarding @MrEd etc’s views that Penny’s wokeism will revolt the membership, there was a poll earlier in the week that showed this to be likely untrue. That it revolts ageing rightwing Trumptons on PB is another matter entirely.
Yawn @Anabobazinam very boring. Con Home had it as the 4th most pressing issue for Tory members. The fact she needed to back away from her comments suggests she knows it could be an issue.
If this verifies, and it is getting closer, this will dominate the news for days. Incredible stuff
These are lethal temperatures and many will die
I think this is an outlier prediction that’s been cherry picked for headlines. All the prediction services I can find are going for 36 or 37 °C . Which is quite bad enough...
Indeed. GFS 18z throwing out fantasy charts. It’s going to be disgustingly hot. But not that hot. As Leon knows.
No I don’t. These predictions are now in the more-reliable time frame. Less than 7 days
Is it likely? No. It is possible? Unfortunately yes
Is it likely? No. It is possible? No.
So @Benpointer knows more than the most sophisticated weather models like GFS, ECM etc (which all form the basis of met office forecasts)
I accurately predict that if anyone is going to be a harbinger of doom it will be @Leon
By the way @Leon, @Benpointer does not need to be an expert to know that weather forecasting is generally accurate to 48 hours max in UK, though this becomes easier in periods of dominant high pressure. I can also say with 100% accuracy that you are not a scientist.
Neither are you with an ignorant statement like that. Forecast accuracy is not a categorical measure, it tends to decline relatively evenly over time. So a 96 hour format will be less accurate than one at 48 hours, but improvements in weather forecasting have been phenomenal over recent decades. This heatwave has been well forecast a long way in advance - though there will remain uncertainty in the peak temperature even on the day itself.
Well I am actually a twat.
FTFY
I think you fixed it for yourself. I guess the treatment for your psychological projection was not successful
St Andrews really is just too easy for the modern pros now. 3 woods off the tee to drive a par 4 by even those who aren't in the worlds best.
Not easy if the wind blows! Which it normally would on at least one of four days, although unlikely this time around.
That's it, its only defence is now hoping that the weather is very poor.
It's coastal, so wouldn't an onshore or offshore breeze be expected most days, on top of the overall air movement?
I’m not a golf nut, but this reminds me of the discussion about the Monaco GP. It’s kept on the calendar despite being expensive for F1, unsuitable for modern cars, inaccessible for anyone not super rich, terribly covered (because Monagasque TV are shit) and boring. It seems to be kept on out of sentiment.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'
That is what is sad about woke. Let me guess, you and quite possibly your parents were born after that song was released? You were born way too late for the sexual (straight and gay) and drugs and rock n roll and anti war revolutions, all hills to die on, and there's nothing left to rebel against, so you are reduced to pretending that Whether Women Have Dicks is an issue on which you can stick it to The Man. The boomers didn't just nick all the real estate, they nicked all the issues too. You are like those very sad biologists like jay gould who think that physics had its Einstein after Newton, biology needs a revolution after Darwin (and Einstein is going to be me), not realising that revolutions need substance to work on.
A Penny Mordaunt led Conservative party would be a gift for Labour. There are many women who will vote Tory for the first time in their lives, some holding their noses, in order to save women's rights from gender identity ideology but they will not vote for Mordaunt.
Don't worry Carlotta, according to @Anabobazina you only care about these things if you are, quote, 'an ageing, right wing Trumpist on PB.com' so Penny will be fine.
Why the 1922 could not just pick the same time slot each day is beyond me.
It's to do with the sitting times of the Commons. They start early and pack up early on Thursdays hence the 3pm results. On Monday since the Commons doesn't sit until early afternoon to allow MPs to get back from their constituencies, the results wont be until 8pm.
On an unrelated note, I don't think that anyone would dare drop out after today if they're in 5th position. Over the weekend there are two scheduled TV debates on C4 and ITV, so anything could technically happen once they're all in the same room in front of the cameras. Much more likely we'll get a drop out on Monday or after Monday's vote is in.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'
A self-ordained professor’s tongue Too serious to fool Spouted out that liberty Is just equality in school “Equality,” I spoke the word As if a wedding vow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
That's why Dylan is a genius. He'd be great on here.
Yes, he writes great lyrics and songs, just is a terrible singer, so not hearing him would be a big plus!
The Byrds, The Flying Burrito Brothers, Hendrix all do his songs much better than him.
I can’t see the Tory membership changing their mind over Mordaunt regardless of her alleged woke friendly attitude .
Sunak seems to have annoyed sufficient members to have zip chance of winning so effectively it’s game over .
I don't get the hate for PM. She is a bit old school Tory. Brexit before it was fashionable, pro-military, patriotic, pro-business and free markets and pragmatic rather than doctrinaire on social issues.
Isn't that the point? The Tories aren't Conservative any more.
They haven't been since 2016. I am hopeful that despite her naïve position on Brexit she is successful. The Tory Party needs someone who can unite them.
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'
A self-ordained professor’s tongue Too serious to fool Spouted out that liberty Is just equality in school “Equality,” I spoke the word As if a wedding vow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
That's why Dylan is a genius. He'd be great on here.
Yes, he writes great lyrics and songs, just is a terrible singer, so not hearing him would be a big plus!
The Byrds, The Flying Burrito Brothers, Hendrix all do his songs much better than him.
Just announced a UK tour....i presume you won't be going.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'
A self-ordained professor’s tongue Too serious to fool Spouted out that liberty Is just equality in school “Equality,” I spoke the word As if a wedding vow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
That's why Dylan is a genius. He'd be great on here.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'
A self-ordained professor’s tongue Too serious to fool Spouted out that liberty Is just equality in school “Equality,” I spoke the word As if a wedding vow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
That's why Dylan is a genius. He'd be great on here.
Yes, he writes great lyrics and songs, just is a terrible singer, so not hearing him would be a big plus!
The Byrds, The Flying Burrito Brothers, Hendrix all do his songs much better than him.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
We're back to the Woke Definition Paradox: wokeism is defined by its detractors as unhealthy obsession with social issues (eg playing identity politics) - it's axiomatic that it is therefore Bad, even if you completely support all the societal changes that . If you define it - as many do - as just being the underlying pace of societal change, then of course you won't see what the fuss is about.
I have no problem at all with people saying "we're spending too much time and money focused on this shit". Because we are. I've sat in company diversity training courses which tick the required boxes but do nothing about diversity. So yes, down with that sort of thing!
But in reality the anti-woke objectors don't want to stop diversity training, they want to stop the march of diversity. They wouldn't be happy if big corporates stopped twatting about changing their logo to rainbow colours to support pride for their own box tick purposes, they just want to stop Pride.
I get it - change can be scary. But you can only shape it, you can't stop it.
A Penny Mordaunt led Conservative party would be a gift for Labour. There are many women who will vote Tory for the first time in their lives, some holding their noses, in order to save women's rights from gender identity ideology but they will not vote for Mordaunt.
Don't worry Carlotta, according to @Anabobazina you only care about these things if you are, quote, 'an ageing, right wing Trumpist on PB.com' so Penny will be fine.
The Tory Party care a lot. Voters however do not.
We have a case study of this. The AU elections which the Coalition believed could be won by culture war issues instead were responded with “why the fuck does that matter I can’t eat”.
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
I don't think you're this dumb.
I'm not. But only one of us is howling at the moon...
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'
A self-ordained professor’s tongue Too serious to fool Spouted out that liberty Is just equality in school “Equality,” I spoke the word As if a wedding vow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
That's why Dylan is a genius. He'd be great on here.
Yes, he writes great lyrics and songs, just is a terrible singer, so not hearing him would be a big plus!
The Byrds, The Flying Burrito Brothers, Hendrix all do his songs much better than him.
Just announced a UK tour....i presume you won't be going.
No, not for me. Has he written anything decent in the last half century?
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
What we are dealing with these days is at best a refusal to engage in rational argument and at worst a demand that anything you feel should be respected and protected and that you don't even want to hear about things outside of your echo chamber.
This is very different to rock and roll or the suffrage movement.
The concepts of no platforming, 'safe spaces', online bubbles have made debate impossible meaning that views are not only going unchallenged but met with an absolute refusal to engage with anything with which you disagree.
Those are very unwelcome additions to our society alongside the denial of evidence and facts.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'
That is what is sad about woke. Let me guess, you and quite possibly your parents were born after that song was released? You were born way too late for the sexual (straight and gay) and drugs and rock n roll and anti war revolutions, all hills to die on, and there's nothing left to rebel against, so you are reduced to pretending that Whether Women Have Dicks is an issue on which you can stick it to The Man. The boomers didn't just nick all the real estate, they nicked all the issues too. You are like those very sad biologists like jay gould who think that physics had its Einstein after Newton, biology needs a revolution after Darwin (and Einstein is going to be me), not realising that revolutions need substance to work on.
Gen Z care far more about the environment than anything else. “Woke” is just a diversion from old angry men to detract from that priority, just like “avocado toast” is a way to deflect millennial complaints about inequality, “smelly hippies” was a way to denigrate the anti-war stance of the boomers and “political correctness” was the way to deflect from… erm, whatever GenX was unhappy with. Bad music?
"Treasury Chief Secretary, Liz Truss, conquered the weekend headlines when she suggested that the Conservative party should be breaking ground on the Green Belt. Truss told The Mail on Sunday that the Conservatives should build a million homes on the Green Belt, which she believes would allow the under 40s to own their own home.
Truss was quoted as saying: “We need to build a million homes on the London Green Belt near railway stations, and around other growing cities, specifically to allow the under 40s to be able to own their homes. We should allow villages to expand by four or five houses a year without having to go through the planning system, so people can afford to live locally.”
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is rapidly agin' Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'
A self-ordained professor’s tongue Too serious to fool Spouted out that liberty Is just equality in school “Equality,” I spoke the word As if a wedding vow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
That's why Dylan is a genius. He'd be great on here.
Yes, he writes great lyrics and songs, just is a terrible singer, so not hearing him would be a big plus!
The Byrds, The Flying Burrito Brothers, Hendrix all do his songs much better than him.
No they don't. Hendrix possibly. But I'd argue that was so radical it barely qualifies as a cover version.
A Penny Mordaunt led Conservative party would be a gift for Labour. There are many women who will vote Tory for the first time in their lives, some holding their noses, in order to save women's rights from gender identity ideology but they will not vote for Mordaunt.
Don't worry Carlotta, according to @Anabobazina you only care about these things if you are, quote, 'an ageing, right wing Trumpist on PB.com' so Penny will be fine.
The Tory Party care a lot. Voters however do not.
We have a case study of this. The AU elections which the Coalition believed could be won by culture war issues instead were responded with “why the fuck does that matter I can’t eat”.
And Oz Labor weren’t even very good.
If you go down this road you’re going to lose.
Don't tell them that - the easiest way for Labour to win the next election is for the Tory party to start an irrelevant culture war that everyone else finds tedious and pointless
St Andrews really is just too easy for the modern pros now. 3 woods off the tee to drive a par 4 by even those who aren't in the worlds best.
Not easy if the wind blows! Which it normally would on at least one of four days, although unlikely this time around.
That's it, its only defence is hoping that the weather is very poor.
Look at the list of winners it produces - it is one of the best tests of golf around still, 6 of the last 9 winners the best in the world at the time, then Daly the longest hitter, Oosthuizen a great iron player and regular major contender, and Johnson an accurate driver and great wedge player. No other course has a better record of getting quality winners.
Zach Johnson Louis Oosthuizen Tiger Tiger Daly Faldo Seve Nicklaus Nicklaus
Lol you are talking about golf from mostly golfers from 20+ years ago. Modern pros are murdering this course. Doesn't mean the best golfer in the world won't win, but it is a joke when a 50+ year old senior tour player is casually driving par 4s in 1.
Unless the weather get bad its going to be -15 plus that wins this.
What does it matter if they finish -15 under? Realistically I would be expecting it to be closer to -20 this week, but if the wind blowed all week it might have been -5.
Dustin Johnson was -20 under at Augusta a couple of years ago. Tour events are regularly won at -15 to -25.
Real examples of broken Britain. Nothing to do with woke, but incompetent, officious, greedy and to be frank, inhuman treatment of our fellow citizens.
In both cases the companies are acting contrary to the law, but ordinary people are finding it difficult to enforce their rights under the law. This is a big problem. When the rule of law stops working for people the entire basis for a peaceful democratic society disappears.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
We're back to the Woke Definition Paradox: wokeism is defined by its detractors as unhealthy obsession with social issues (eg playing identity politics) - it's axiomatic that it is therefore Bad, even if you completely support all the societal changes that . If you define it - as many do - as just being the underlying pace of societal change, then of course you won't see what the fuss is about.
I have no problem at all with people saying "we're spending too much time and money focused on this shit". Because we are. I've sat in company diversity training courses which tick the required boxes but do nothing about diversity. So yes, down with that sort of thing!
But in reality the anti-woke objectors don't want to stop diversity training, they want to stop the march of diversity. They wouldn't be happy if big corporates stopped twatting about changing their logo to rainbow colours to support pride for their own box tick purposes, they just want to stop Pride.
I get it - change can be scary. But you can only shape it, you can't stop it.
If that were true then Conservativea would have a problem with the race and ethnicity of the leadership candidates, and be marking white men top.
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
I don't think you're this dumb.
I'm not. But only one of us is howling at the moon...
Calling me a moon howler and a mentalist (as someone else did last night) is a really weak argument.
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
There isn't one. The issue kitty is empty. Should women have votes: an issue. Can women have dicks? who gives a fuck, except in edge but real cases where they use them to rape women without dicks? Not an issue. See the difference?
"Treasury Chief Secretary, Liz Truss, conquered the weekend headlines when she suggested that the Conservative party should be breaking ground on the Green Belt. Truss told The Mail on Sunday that the Conservatives should build a million homes on the Green Belt, which she believes would allow the under 40s to own their own home.
Truss was quoted as saying: “We need to build a million homes on the London Green Belt near railway stations, and around other growing cities, specifically to allow the under 40s to be able to own their homes. We should allow villages to expand by four or five houses a year without having to go through the planning system, so people can afford to live locally.”
Excellent suggestion. 👍
Absolutely. Completely agree. Of course if she proposed this she’d lose beautifully because the pensioner-owner class won’t stand for it.
I'm not entirely convinced by Penny, on the one hand she's clearly switched on and a relatively good communicator. However, I don't know what she stands for, definitely feels like a blank sheet of paper onto which the great and powerful in the party are projecting their own image of what they want the next leader to be.
The reason I'm in favour of Kemi is because we have got one chance to beat Starmer in 2024 and it's going to need someone who actually stands for something and gives people something to vote in favour of to actually win. Penny doesn't do that, she's going to present the voters with that blank sheet of paper and try to win on a battle personalities, but at the same time as being in recession, being the Tory party which is now a big net drag after Boris and against Starmer who has got enough name recognition at this point to make a go of it and come out on top.
Penny, to me, seems like the "manager decline" choice for that Tories, admitting that we've got no policies or nothing positive to deliver to the nation. Kemi comes in with ideas that can turn into serious policies and give voters something vote in favour of.
It's definitely a riskier strategy but ultimately the Tory party needs to stand for something other than pretending to be second coming of Mrs Thatcher as Liz and Penny are attempting to project.
I don't know what Kemi's personality is like at all or if she has any real charisma but for me the fact that she's got ideas is winning. None of the other candidates seem to know what they want to do with the job other than occupy No. 10 for just under two years before being booted out by a Labour/SNP/LD coalition. It will be Boris but a bit more competent, or at least fewer scandals. The MPs must get Kemi onto the members ballot so she can get out there on the national stage and pitch her policy based vision against the bland managed declinism coming from whoever the other candidate is.
I think if she gets that chance it will be Dave vs Davis again, the favourite will find themselves pitching a nothing platform against a positive vision of the nation backed by ideas that make sense to ordinary people and she'll take the win.
The Tories can win the next election. Or be crushed. We're moving forward as a society - thanks to Covid - yet most of the contenders and the selectorate seem obsessed by the past.
So its a choice. Pick someone godawful and negative like Truss or Braverman (stop laughing at the back). Pick someone shiny and bereft of ideas who ultimately will pivot to knee-jerk like Mordaunt and (probably) Sunak will. Or go for change.
Tugendhat overtly set his stall out over there. Its just that he is sleep-inducingly dull. When compared to Badenoch who represents a radically different vision for the party and all of the possibilities for the country that opens up.
Personally I'd go with Sunak. He will be competent and run a sensational PR machine to sell the positives. And as I expect he will do what he can to balance the economic mess with the need to invest I expect there would be positives to spin.
But the exciting prospect is Kemi. I think Labour wouldn't have the first clue how to combat her.
Perhaps the question ought to be whether Kemi has the first clue how to combat the problems facing the country right now.
I'm not entirely convinced by Penny, on the one hand she's clearly switched on and a relatively good communicator. However, I don't know what she stands for, definitely feels like a blank sheet of paper onto which the great and powerful in the party are projecting their own image of what they want the next leader to be.
The reason I'm in favour of Kemi is because we have got one chance to beat Starmer in 2024 and it's going to need someone who actually stands for something and gives people something to vote in favour of to actually win. Penny doesn't do that, she's going to present the voters with that blank sheet of paper and try to win on a battle personalities, but at the same time as being in recession, being the Tory party which is now a big net drag after Boris and against Starmer who has got enough name recognition at this point to make a go of it and come out on top.
Penny, to me, seems like the "manager decline" choice for that Tories, admitting that we've got no policies or nothing positive to deliver to the nation. Kemi comes in with ideas that can turn into serious policies and give voters something vote in favour of.
It's definitely a riskier strategy but ultimately the Tory party needs to stand for something other than pretending to be second coming of Mrs Thatcher as Liz and Penny are attempting to project.
I don't know what Kemi's personality is like at all or if she has any real charisma but for me the fact that she's got ideas is winning. None of the other candidates seem to know what they want to do with the job other than occupy No. 10 for just under two years before being booted out by a Labour/SNP/LD coalition. It will be Boris but a bit more competent, or at least fewer scandals. The MPs must get Kemi onto the members ballot so she can get out there on the national stage and pitch her policy based vision against the bland managed declinism coming from whoever the other candidate is.
I think if she gets that chance it will be Dave vs Davis again, the favourite will find themselves pitching a nothing platform against a positive vision of the nation backed by ideas that make sense to ordinary people and she'll take the win.
My gut instinct tells me Kemi is good.
She's bright, brave and interesting - yes, she could bomb and fall flat on her face (like all the others) but I'm willing to take a punt.
I think the Conservatives have to take some chances to renew the vision and leadership for the country after 12 years.
Yes, that's where I'm at with it too. Kemi has the ideas to make the Tory party stand for something. Boris and Theresa May didn't stand for anything in particular, they were just standard Tories with bland policies aimed at achieving nothing (other than Boris wrt Brexit, of course).
If we're going to go into the next era of politics we need a leader who recognises that more of the same isn't going to cut it. Kemi at least has thought about changing things, none of the other six have even hinted that they believe we need a new direction.
I'm not entirely convinced by Penny, on the one hand she's clearly switched on and a relatively good communicator. However, I don't know what she stands for, definitely feels like a blank sheet of paper onto which the great and powerful in the party are projecting their own image of what they want the next leader to be.
The reason I'm in favour of Kemi is because we have got one chance to beat Starmer in 2024 and it's going to need someone who actually stands for something and gives people something to vote in favour of to actually win. Penny doesn't do that, she's going to present the voters with that blank sheet of paper and try to win on a battle personalities, but at the same time as being in recession, being the Tory party which is now a big net drag after Boris and against Starmer who has got enough name recognition at this point to make a go of it and come out on top.
Penny, to me, seems like the "manager decline" choice for that Tories, admitting that we've got no policies or nothing positive to deliver to the nation. Kemi comes in with ideas that can turn into serious policies and give voters something vote in favour of.
It's definitely a riskier strategy but ultimately the Tory party needs to stand for something other than pretending to be second coming of Mrs Thatcher as Liz and Penny are attempting to project.
I don't know what Kemi's personality is like at all or if she has any real charisma but for me the fact that she's got ideas is winning. None of the other candidates seem to know what they want to do with the job other than occupy No. 10 for just under two years before being booted out by a Labour/SNP/LD coalition. It will be Boris but a bit more competent, or at least fewer scandals. The MPs must get Kemi onto the members ballot so she can get out there on the national stage and pitch her policy based vision against the bland managed declinism coming from whoever the other candidate is.
I think if she gets that chance it will be Dave vs Davis again, the favourite will find themselves pitching a nothing platform against a positive vision of the nation backed by ideas that make sense to ordinary people and she'll take the win.
The Tories can win the next election. Or be crushed. We're moving forward as a society - thanks to Covid - yet most of the contenders and the selectorate seem obsessed by the past.
So its a choice. Pick someone godawful and negative like Truss or Braverman (stop laughing at the back). Pick someone shiny and bereft of ideas who ultimately will pivot to knee-jerk like Mordaunt and (probably) Sunak will. Or go for change.
Tugendhat overtly set his stall out over there. Its just that he is sleep-inducingly dull. When compared to Badenoch who represents a radically different vision for the party and all of the possibilities for the country that opens up.
Personally I'd go with Sunak. He will be competent and run a sensational PR machine to sell the positives. And as I expect he will do what he can to balance the economic mess with the need to invest I expect there would be positives to spin.
But the exciting prospect is Kemi. I think Labour wouldn't have the first clue how to combat her.
I've seen two focus groups reported on the leadership race and, in both, the participants said something along the lines of "why are they talking about this culture war stuff, what are they going to do about the cost of living?" That is how Labour responds to Kemi unless she comes up with some actual policies on the issues that the electorate care about.
If this verifies, and it is getting closer, this will dominate the news for days. Incredible stuff
These are lethal temperatures and many will die
I think this is an outlier prediction that’s been cherry picked for headlines. All the prediction services I can find are going for 36 or 37 °C . Which is quite bad enough...
Indeed. GFS 18z throwing out fantasy charts. It’s going to be disgustingly hot. But not that hot. As Leon knows.
No I don’t. These predictions are now in the more-reliable time frame. Less than 7 days
Is it likely? No. It is possible? Unfortunately yes
Is it likely? No. It is possible? No.
So @Benpointer knows more than the most sophisticated weather models like GFS, ECM etc (which all form the basis of met office forecasts)
I accurately predict that if anyone is going to be a harbinger of doom it will be @Leon
By the way @Leon, @Benpointer does not need to be an expert to know that weather forecasting is generally accurate to 48 hours max in UK, though this becomes easier in periods of dominant high pressure. I can also say with 100% accuracy that you are not a scientist.
Neither are you with an ignorant statement like that. Forecast accuracy is not a categorical measure, it tends to decline relatively evenly over time. So a 96 hour format will be less accurate than one at 48 hours, but improvements in weather forecasting have been phenomenal over recent decades. This heatwave has been well forecast a long way in advance - though there will remain uncertainty in the peak temperature even on the day itself.
Well I am actually. twat.
Then you should know better than to talk crap about something you obviously know nothing about.
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
What we are dealing with these days is at best a refusal to engage in rational argument and at worst a demand that anything you feel should be respected and protected and that you don't even want to hear about things outside of your echo chamber.
This is very different to rock and roll or the suffrage movement.
The concepts of no platforming, 'safe spaces', online bubbles have made debate impossible meaning that views are not only going unchallenged but met with an absolute refusal to engage with anything with which you disagree.
Those are very unwelcome additions to our society alongside the denial of evidence and facts.
"a refusal to engage in rational argument" - like saying that all lefties are stupid?
"you don't even want to hear about things outside of your echo chamber" - like getting worked up by companies advertising their opposition to domestic violence?
"denial of evidence and facts" - like refusing to acknowledge the economic harm caused by Brexit?
There is plenty of this kind of behaviour on the Right.
@Cookie thanks to your reply yesterday re my woke question. Apologies for not acknowledging at the time. Interesting you were the only reply and you aren't typical of someone who is likely to bang on about this topic. I also noted you posted about your experience of your daughter's before so your experience is particularly interesting. My children are now several years out of school so I might be out of touch but we had no experience of this. Would love to hear from other parents. What does the school say when challenged?
To be clear, this is based on my shock from visiting schools we're considering for our daughter's senior school - she's still only 10. But it's universal: private and state, selective and non-selective. Which is odd, because the primary schools my daughters have been to are not perceptibly more woke than the state primary school I attended 30 years ago. I think it would be quite hard to challenge the school on this. It's easy to criticise the excesses of woke anonymously on an internet forum; much more risky in real life to a school which your children have to attend. You hear stories of quite hostile pushback to that sort of thing, and the last thing a parent wants to do is make life more difficult for their children.
Society can be divided into two types of people
Those who do not believe Woke is a problem = those who have not yet encountered it in work or life
Those who realise Woke is a problem = those who have now encountered it. Parents of kids age 10-15 are a classic case, because they can suddenly see it running rampant in schools
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work or life then like you say? Your statement doesn't make sense therefore does it? Maybe we have encountered it and in most cases find it irritating but irrelevant. As I said yesterday we just think pillocks and move on.
Note I asked you a question about this yesterday and you didn't reply. Only @cookie did and I find his reply disturbing. You keep banging on about it but don't say how it affects your life.
If woke is rampant why haven't we encountered it in work
I genuinely don't know what to make of this comment. Every single moderately large company has a social media team who pump out a near continuous stream of vacuous virtue-signalling nonsense on equality, diversity, inclusion etc for every minority group under the sun. It's particularly prevalent in June, when they all change their corporate logos to include rainbows for Pride month. LinkedIn becomes even more unreadable than usual because of the weight of posts on the subject. I absolutely do not understand how anyone could be in the workforce and not have noticed this, somewhere.
If that is the sum total of the WOKE DANGER then who cares? It is a largely pointless exercise in virtue signalling. So a company decides to participate in Pride - where is the threat?
Lets be entirely honest about this - these companies virtue signal a lot of things. Its not that they are asleep for most of the year and only do Pride. So "EUGH THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR LOGO STOP IT" is only attacking the LGBT cause because we don't here anything in protest when they support women or BAME or the environment etc.
Repression of us sexual deviants is still popular apparently. Which is precisely why we need Pride and companies showing their support for it. You guys create the WOKE THREAT you complain of.
No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. My point was specifically that I can't understand how anyone hasn't noticed it, because of the lengths companies go to to make it as visible as possible - the reason being that they don't actually care about any of it, they just really don't want to be on the end of a Twitter dogpile because they aren't participating.
To go back a few comments I have kids aged 10 and 14. In two separate schools. And I can't say I have noticed that Woke is "running rampant" in their schools.
For me - as a Bisexual man who only had the confidence to come out aged 40 - I don't look at companies changing their logos for a rainbow one as anything at all. Pride (happily) has become a mainstream part of our society. As has the push for female equality in pay and conditions, teaching kids about respecting each other and all of the other horrors that make some people shriek in fear.
I do understand. Societal change always provokes a minority who don't like it. Woke is just the latest threat, as the permissive society or women having the vote or the abolition of slavery was. You dislike the modernisation of the way people treat people with more humanity so it gets labelled - woke.
And just as Alf Garnett sat in London there ranting about all the things he didn't agree with changing, so Leon sits somewhere abroad doing the same. Different times, different issues to be unhappy about, same psychology.
Its fine. The woke-worriers will either get on board or they won't. Societal change is happening whether they do or don't.
We're back to the Woke Definition Paradox: wokeism is defined by its detractors as unhealthy obsession with social issues (eg playing identity politics) - it's axiomatic that it is therefore Bad, even if you completely support all the societal changes that . If you define it - as many do - as just being the underlying pace of societal change, then of course you won't see what the fuss is about.
I have no problem at all with people saying "we're spending too much time and money focused on this shit". Because we are. I've sat in company diversity training courses which tick the required boxes but do nothing about diversity. So yes, down with that sort of thing!
But in reality the anti-woke objectors don't want to stop diversity training, they want to stop the march of diversity. They wouldn't be happy if big corporates stopped twatting about changing their logo to rainbow colours to support pride for their own box tick purposes, they just want to stop Pride.
I get it - change can be scary. But you can only shape it, you can't stop it.
Diversity and Inclusion as it is currently being enforced is not about creating a more open and welcoming environment for all.
It is about counting characteristics and seeking to label everyone according to a checklist and to treat them accordingly.
It has nothing to do with celebrating the diversity of each individual and what they can bring. And it is all about creating uniformity and enforced group think
The Pride movement is fracturing because of this. I have sat in Pride meetings where the only thing in the D&I sphere the leadership is worried about is counting the number of black and brown faces in the room.
It is deeply frustrating to see a movement that still matters get torn apart from within by thinking which has stopped celebrating diversity and just wants uniformity.
Why the 1922 could not just pick the same time slot each day is beyond me.
It's to do with the sitting times of the Commons. They start early and pack up early on Thursdays hence the 3pm results. On Monday since the Commons doesn't sit until early afternoon to allow MPs to get back from their constituencies, the results wont be until 8pm.
On an unrelated note, I don't think that anyone would dare drop out after today if they're in 5th position. Over the weekend there are two scheduled TV debates on C4 and ITV, so anything could technically happen once they're all in the same room in front of the cameras. Much more likely we'll get a drop out on Monday or after Monday's vote is in.
I suspect we won't see any at all drop out unless their receive less votes than the previous round.
Today we end up with 5 Monday 4 Tuesday 3 Wednesday the final 2
And with no clear winner if the vote goes to the members there is little to be gained by quitting early and supporting 1 of the final 2 unless you are 50 votes behind on the person in second place on Tuesday night.
A Penny Mordaunt led Conservative party would be a gift for Labour. There are many women who will vote Tory for the first time in their lives, some holding their noses, in order to save women's rights from gender identity ideology but they will not vote for Mordaunt.
Don't worry Carlotta, according to @Anabobazina you only care about these things if you are, quote, 'an ageing, right wing Trumpist on PB.com' so Penny will be fine.
The Tory Party care a lot. Voters however do not.
We have a case study of this. The AU elections which the Coalition believed could be won by culture war issues instead were responded with “why the fuck does that matter I can’t eat”.
And Oz Labor weren’t even very good.
If you go down this road you’re going to lose.
Hello Horse. So my original point had been to Ananob who had been saying that Tory members don't care about trans issues when the polling suggests they do. I'd agree with you they care more about it than ordinary voters but - and pure anecdote - there are a fair few parents out there, and not all right-wing Trumpists, who do not like what their kids are being taught in school. And that's before you even try and discuss such issues where a large minority (at least) of the parents are of the Muslim faith.
I think there is a danger of extrapolating Australia to the rest of the world. Australia is the most urbanised society of the world - 85% of its population lives in (I think) the top 5 cities. We know from the US, UK etc that the cities and now the suburbs are becoming more progressive (no doubt there is an element of social conformity involved). However, the UK and US have plenty more people who live in smaller towns / rural; areas who don't have the same views. Ignore these at your peril.
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
It seems to me that the real challenge is being missed. Most PBers are in fact fairly old fashioned liberals in the sense of believing in freedom as widely as possible, with the major proviso being that, so to speak, your freedom to punch ends where my nose begins. I have no freedom to do harm or interfere with the freedom of others.
Some old fashioned liberals (I am one) fear that what is occurring is a power play. Artificial extensions are rapidly being built to the concept of what constitutes 'harm'. This explains the bogus 'snowflake' phenomenon, whereby certain expressions of free speech come under threat, not because it will hurt my nose but because I can't cope with the trauma of having to be in the same room/country/planet as that thought.
This is also the danger of 'protected characteristics'. This is mostly about who gets to order whom around.
It’s funny how we were happy to stick rainbows on everything and clap for carers. Didn’t hear any complaints about that from the anti woke brigade
Actually, I did. I didn't mind one clap but then as @Dura_Ace said (who I rarely agree with) it all became a bit Juche. I have also criticised OTT poppy fascism.
Woke is a function of disproportionately and dogma, not absolutes.
We should be good at that in this country. We are not Americans.
As someone on the other side of this debate generally to you @Casino_Royale I rather like that post. Agree 100%.
Thanks. To turn it on its head the equivalent criticism of what I've just posted would be: so you hate the NHS and its workers then? Or, you hate those that fought and died for us in the war?
Woke is a function of volume, frequency, hectoring and dogma - not absolutes.
I'm not entirely convinced by Penny, on the one hand she's clearly switched on and a relatively good communicator. However, I don't know what she stands for, definitely feels like a blank sheet of paper onto which the great and powerful in the party are projecting their own image of what they want the next leader to be.
The reason I'm in favour of Kemi is because we have got one chance to beat Starmer in 2024 and it's going to need someone who actually stands for something and gives people something to vote in favour of to actually win. Penny doesn't do that, she's going to present the voters with that blank sheet of paper and try to win on a battle personalities, but at the same time as being in recession, being the Tory party which is now a big net drag after Boris and against Starmer who has got enough name recognition at this point to make a go of it and come out on top.
Penny, to me, seems like the "manager decline" choice for that Tories, admitting that we've got no policies or nothing positive to deliver to the nation. Kemi comes in with ideas that can turn into serious policies and give voters something vote in favour of.
It's definitely a riskier strategy but ultimately the Tory party needs to stand for something other than pretending to be second coming of Mrs Thatcher as Liz and Penny are attempting to project.
I don't know what Kemi's personality is like at all or if she has any real charisma but for me the fact that she's got ideas is winning. None of the other candidates seem to know what they want to do with the job other than occupy No. 10 for just under two years before being booted out by a Labour/SNP/LD coalition. It will be Boris but a bit more competent, or at least fewer scandals. The MPs must get Kemi onto the members ballot so she can get out there on the national stage and pitch her policy based vision against the bland managed declinism coming from whoever the other candidate is.
I think if she gets that chance it will be Dave vs Davis again, the favourite will find themselves pitching a nothing platform against a positive vision of the nation backed by ideas that make sense to ordinary people and she'll take the win.
The Tories can win the next election. Or be crushed. We're moving forward as a society - thanks to Covid - yet most of the contenders and the selectorate seem obsessed by the past.
So its a choice. Pick someone godawful and negative like Truss or Braverman (stop laughing at the back). Pick someone shiny and bereft of ideas who ultimately will pivot to knee-jerk like Mordaunt and (probably) Sunak will. Or go for change.
Tugendhat overtly set his stall out over there. Its just that he is sleep-inducingly dull. When compared to Badenoch who represents a radically different vision for the party and all of the possibilities for the country that opens up.
Personally I'd go with Sunak. He will be competent and run a sensational PR machine to sell the positives. And as I expect he will do what he can to balance the economic mess with the need to invest I expect there would be positives to spin.
But the exciting prospect is Kemi. I think Labour wouldn't have the first clue how to combat her.
Thanks to covid? Nothing good has happened thanks to covid in my opinion.
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
I don't think you're this dumb.
I'm not. But only one of us is howling at the moon...
Calling me a moon howler and a mentalist (as someone else did last night) is a really weak argument.
Engage with the substance please.
I have posted quite a lot of substance on this subject recently. To which your level of engagement was "I don't think you're this dumb". I could say the same to you.
St Andrews really is just too easy for the modern pros now. 3 woods off the tee to drive a par 4 by even those who aren't in the worlds best.
Not easy if the wind blows! Which it normally would on at least one of four days, although unlikely this time around.
That's it, its only defence is hoping that the weather is very poor.
Look at the list of winners it produces - it is one of the best tests of golf around still, 6 of the last 9 winners the best in the world at the time, then Daly the longest hitter, Oosthuizen a great iron player and regular major contender, and Johnson an accurate driver and great wedge player. No other course has a better record of getting quality winners.
Zach Johnson Louis Oosthuizen Tiger Tiger Daly Faldo Seve Nicklaus Nicklaus
Lol you are talking about golf from mostly golfers from 20+ years ago. Modern pros are murdering this course. Doesn't mean the best golfer in the world won't win, but it is a joke when a 50+ year old senior tour player is casually driving par 4s in 1.
Unless the weather get bad its going to be -15 plus that wins this.
What does it matter if they finish -15 under? Realistically I would be expecting it to be closer to -20 this week, but if the wind blowed all week it might have been -5.
Dustin Johnson was -20 under at Augusta a couple of years ago. Tour events are regularly won at -15 to -25.
Well its a major so supposed to be the ultimate test not a regular tour event.
Yes Johnson murdered it once, but they then make it more difficult (as they did when Tiger did) and the drop off to the others is huge....because the test is so severe. Most Masters only the top 15 or so finish under par at all, separating the best from the rest.
Here we are just seeing well past their prime golfers casually driving multiple par 4s in 1. With no wind, there is no challenge from distance required, width of fairways, need to control / shape the ball or tough greens.
A Penny Mordaunt led Conservative party would be a gift for Labour. There are many women who will vote Tory for the first time in their lives, some holding their noses, in order to save women's rights from gender identity ideology but they will not vote for Mordaunt.
Don't worry Carlotta, according to @Anabobazina you only care about these things if you are, quote, 'an ageing, right wing Trumpist on PB.com' so Penny will be fine.
PS for those who don't think this will be an issue for Penny:
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
What we are dealing with these days is at best a refusal to engage in rational argument and at worst a demand that anything you feel should be respected and protected and that you don't even want to hear about things outside of your echo chamber.
This is very different to rock and roll or the suffrage movement.
The concepts of no platforming, 'safe spaces', online bubbles have made debate impossible meaning that views are not only going unchallenged but met with an absolute refusal to engage with anything with which you disagree.
Those are very unwelcome additions to our society alongside the denial of evidence and facts.
"a refusal to engage in rational argument" - like saying that all lefties are stupid?
"you don't even want to hear about things outside of your echo chamber" - like getting worked up by companies advertising their opposition to domestic violence?
"denial of evidence and facts" - like refusing to acknowledge the economic harm caused by Brexit?
There is plenty of this kind of behaviour on the Right.
I deliberately didn't include any mention of specific issues because it is not just a left/right thing. It is a damaging refusal to engage. There is so little room for discovery and conversation. And too much assertion.
Wading into the woke debate (probably somewhat unwisely).
As a nation we have become much more socially liberal in the past 20 years, the pace of change has been breathtaking as it has been in many societies in Western Europe. I support the progress that has been made.
We have gotten to where we are through measured rational debate and respect for individuals.
The concern I have now is that there is a somewhat troubling tendency to shut down debate. You do not drive progress (or certainly not for very long) by stifling debate. You engage and you bring people with you. At the moment I fear there is a tendency that in order to protect, sustain and advance social progress and liberalism in this country we have to deplatform, shame, ‘cancel’, ruin or embarrass people who hold differing points of view. This is helping contribute to the backlash that sustains the culture war.
Just my two cents. I’m now going to run to my bunker and hide.
A Penny Mordaunt led Conservative party would be a gift for Labour. There are many women who will vote Tory for the first time in their lives, some holding their noses, in order to save women's rights from gender identity ideology but they will not vote for Mordaunt.
Don't worry Carlotta, according to @Anabobazina you only care about these things if you are, quote, 'an ageing, right wing Trumpist on PB.com' so Penny will be fine.
The Tory Party care a lot. Voters however do not.
We have a case study of this. The AU elections which the Coalition believed could be won by culture war issues instead were responded with “why the fuck does that matter I can’t eat”.
And Oz Labor weren’t even very good.
If you go down this road you’re going to lose.
Hello Horse. So my original point had been to Ananob who had been saying that Tory members don't care about trans issues when the polling suggests they do. I'd agree with you they care more about it than ordinary voters but - and pure anecdote - there are a fair few parents out there, and not all right-wing Trumpists, who do not like what their kids are being taught in school. And that's before you even try and discuss such issues where a large minority (at least) of the parents are of the Muslim faith.
I think there is a danger of extrapolating Australia to the rest of the world. Australia is the most urbanised society of the world - 85% of its population lives in (I think) the top 5 cities. We know from the US, UK etc that the cities and now the suburbs are becoming more progressive (no doubt there is an element of social conformity involved). However, the UK and US have plenty more people who live in smaller towns / rural; areas who don't have the same views. Ignore these at your peril.
Australia isn't culturally woker than the UK. Funny it even need be said.
If this verifies, and it is getting closer, this will dominate the news for days. Incredible stuff
These are lethal temperatures and many will die
I think this is an outlier prediction that’s been cherry picked for headlines. All the prediction services I can find are going for 36 or 37 °C . Which is quite bad enough...
Indeed. GFS 18z throwing out fantasy charts. It’s going to be disgustingly hot. But not that hot. As Leon knows.
No I don’t. These predictions are now in the more-reliable time frame. Less than 7 days
Is it likely? No. It is possible? Unfortunately yes
Is it likely? No. It is possible? No.
So @Benpointer knows more than the most sophisticated weather models like GFS, ECM etc (which all form the basis of met office forecasts)
Dear oh dear, if they form the basis of Met Office forecasts why are the Met Office forcecasting a UK maximum of 38°C?
Indeed. Because single model runs / permutations are NOT forecasts. They are raw output from a computer of which there will be dozens more before Tuesday!
As Leon knows.
Hundreds more every six hours, but it's not normal to have forecasts of 40+C within the ensemble envelope at these lead times.
Who was claiming it was normal? Nobody. The weather is going to be unbearably, horribly hot. Nobody sane will deny that.
What triggered this threadette was the typically hysterical Leon cherrypicking the worst chart possible and presenting it as a 'forecast' when it is no such thing.
1) It doesn't exist 2) Ok, it exists but who cares 3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it 4) You're a racist
1) is a debate about what "woke" is. The things that are described as woke exist, its "woke" as a threat which doesn't.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
What we are dealing with these days is at best a refusal to engage in rational argument and at worst a demand that anything you feel should be respected and protected and that you don't even want to hear about things outside of your echo chamber.
This is very different to rock and roll or the suffrage movement.
The concepts of no platforming, 'safe spaces', online bubbles have made debate impossible meaning that views are not only going unchallenged but met with an absolute refusal to engage with anything with which you disagree.
Those are very unwelcome additions to our society alongside the denial of evidence and facts.
The people who don't want to hear about things outside of their echo chamber are the "anti-Woke" here who want to ban a poster in Waterloo station about stopping sexist hate, who complain endlessly about corporations sticking a rainbow up for a month, who demand their statue of a slave trader must be respected and protected.
I'm not entirely convinced by Penny, on the one hand she's clearly switched on and a relatively good communicator. However, I don't know what she stands for, definitely feels like a blank sheet of paper onto which the great and powerful in the party are projecting their own image of what they want the next leader to be.
The reason I'm in favour of Kemi is because we have got one chance to beat Starmer in 2024 and it's going to need someone who actually stands for something and gives people something to vote in favour of to actually win. Penny doesn't do that, she's going to present the voters with that blank sheet of paper and try to win on a battle personalities, but at the same time as being in recession, being the Tory party which is now a big net drag after Boris and against Starmer who has got enough name recognition at this point to make a go of it and come out on top.
Penny, to me, seems like the "manager decline" choice for that Tories, admitting that we've got no policies or nothing positive to deliver to the nation. Kemi comes in with ideas that can turn into serious policies and give voters something vote in favour of.
It's definitely a riskier strategy but ultimately the Tory party needs to stand for something other than pretending to be second coming of Mrs Thatcher as Liz and Penny are attempting to project.
I don't know what Kemi's personality is like at all or if she has any real charisma but for me the fact that she's got ideas is winning. None of the other candidates seem to know what they want to do with the job other than occupy No. 10 for just under two years before being booted out by a Labour/SNP/LD coalition. It will be Boris but a bit more competent, or at least fewer scandals. The MPs must get Kemi onto the members ballot so she can get out there on the national stage and pitch her policy based vision against the bland managed declinism coming from whoever the other candidate is.
I think if she gets that chance it will be Dave vs Davis again, the favourite will find themselves pitching a nothing platform against a positive vision of the nation backed by ideas that make sense to ordinary people and she'll take the win.
The Tories can win the next election. Or be crushed. We're moving forward as a society - thanks to Covid - yet most of the contenders and the selectorate seem obsessed by the past.
So its a choice. Pick someone godawful and negative like Truss or Braverman (stop laughing at the back). Pick someone shiny and bereft of ideas who ultimately will pivot to knee-jerk like Mordaunt and (probably) Sunak will. Or go for change.
Tugendhat overtly set his stall out over there. Its just that he is sleep-inducingly dull. When compared to Badenoch who represents a radically different vision for the party and all of the possibilities for the country that opens up.
Personally I'd go with Sunak. He will be competent and run a sensational PR machine to sell the positives. And as I expect he will do what he can to balance the economic mess with the need to invest I expect there would be positives to spin.
But the exciting prospect is Kemi. I think Labour wouldn't have the first clue how to combat her.
I've seen two focus groups reported on the leadership race and, in both, the participants said something along the lines of "why are they talking about this culture war stuff, what are they going to do about the cost of living?" That is how Labour responds to Kemi unless she comes up with some actual policies on the issues that the electorate care about.
I don't think Kemi is engaged on culture war - she needs to say it to get on board, but will she really bother with it?
My point about them not knowing what to do with her is that her ascendency represents all of Labour's fail points in a single person. How can this black female migrant be talking about a vision for the future which embodies change when she is a hated Tory racist?
Wading into the woke debate (probably somewhat unwisely).
As a nation we have become much more socially liberal in the past 20 years, the pace of change has been breathtaking as it has been in many societies in Western Europe. I support the progress that has been made.
We have gotten to where we are through measured rational debate and respect for individuals.
The concern I have now is that there is a somewhat troubling tendency to shut down debate. You do not drive progress (or certainly not for very long) by stifling debate. You engage and you bring people with you. At the moment I fear there is a tendency that in order to protect, sustain and advance social progress and liberalism in this country we have to deplatform, shame, ‘cancel’, ruin or embarrass people who hold differing points of view. This is helping contribute to the backlash that sustains the culture war.
Just my two cents. I’m now going to run to my bunker and hide.
If we've become more socially liberal, why do we keep hearing Labour MPs advocating harsh prison sentences? I don't remember that from 20 years ago. Back then the left believed in reforming prisoners.
Wading into the woke debate (probably somewhat unwisely).
As a nation we have become much more socially liberal in the past 20 years, the pace of change has been breathtaking as it has been in many societies in Western Europe. I support the progress that has been made.
We have gotten to where we are through measured rational debate and respect for individuals.
The concern I have now is that there is a somewhat troubling tendency to shut down debate. You do not drive progress (or certainly not for very long) by stifling debate. You engage and you bring people with you. At the moment I fear there is a tendency that in order to protect, sustain and advance social progress and liberalism in this country we have to deplatform, shame, ‘cancel’, ruin or embarrass people who hold differing points of view. This is helping contribute to the backlash that sustains the culture war.
Just my two cents. I’m now going to run to my bunker and hide.
If we've become more socially liberal, why do we keep hearing Labour MPs advocating harsh prison sentences? I don't remember that from 20 years ago. Back then the left believed in reforming prisoners.
I think you're remembering faulty.
Twenty years ago we had a Labour Prime Minister who wanted people to be able to be imprisoned without trial.
Comments
The Tory tractor enthusiasts are down south AFAIK.
Edit: apols: got caught by the ambiguity. Yes, re the other meaning, Ms D as she was then was certainly snapped doing the cowboy act with at least one unfortunate farm animal.
She's bright, brave and interesting - yes, she could bomb and fall flat on her face (like all the others) but I'm willing to take a punt.
I think the Conservatives have to take some chances to renew the vision and leadership for the country after 12 years.
I am happy to wear a Ukrainian flag badge though because a Ukrainian friend of mine tells me that he and people in his country really appreciate it. They are and isolated and embattled nation terrified that the free world will lose interest and wearing a Ukrainian flag shows that one person at least does not do so or has not done so yet anyway.
Results at 1:30 ?
I guess because there are still plenty of people who aren't in a corporate environment, and live in a relatively rural area where it's less likely to be encountered?
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
“Equality,” I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now
All six have Cabinet posts if they want them (unfortunately in the case of Braverman). Especially if it's a Mordaunt Cabinet.
So its a choice. Pick someone godawful and negative like Truss or Braverman (stop laughing at the back). Pick someone shiny and bereft of ideas who ultimately will pivot to knee-jerk like Mordaunt and (probably) Sunak will. Or go for change.
Tugendhat overtly set his stall out over there. Its just that he is sleep-inducingly dull. When compared to Badenoch who represents a radically different vision for the party and all of the possibilities for the country that opens up.
Personally I'd go with Sunak. He will be competent and run a sensational PR machine to sell the positives. And as I expect he will do what he can to balance the economic mess with the need to invest I expect there would be positives to spin.
But the exciting prospect is Kemi. I think Labour wouldn't have the first clue how to combat her.
1) It doesn't exist
2) Ok, it exists but who cares
3) Ok, I do care - nothing wrong with it
4) You're a racist
Zach Johnson
Louis Oosthuizen
Tiger
Tiger
Daly
Faldo
Seve
Nicklaus
Nicklaus
That and all my neighbours went out to clap and cheer but then were clearly breaking lockdown and didn't really give a fuck about Covid. As an NHS worker seeing this repeated hypocrisy really riled me up.
On first impressions I find her quite charismatic . Miss Moneypenny Bondish ! And she has great hair ! Frost laying into her is a big plus .
And she’ll surely rid the cabinet of the Bozo arse lickers .
Tory MPs will begin their second round of voting at 11.30am this morning and have until 1.30pm to cast their ballot.
The result will then be announced by the chair of the backbench 1922 Committee, Sir Graham Brady, at 3pm.
https://news.sky.com/story/more-tory-leadership-hopefuls-set-to-be-knocked-out-of-race-today-as-second-voting-round-begins-12651534
Why the 1922 could not just pick the same time slot each day is beyond me.
He'd be great on here.
Unless the weather get bad its going to be -15 plus that wins this.
Go back 60 years and "woke" was rock and roll. Go back 50 years before that and "woke" was the campaign for women's votes.
Just as we were better off having had The Beatles, and allowing women to participate in society, we are better off with whatever this generation's "woke" fear is.
On an unrelated note, I don't think that anyone would dare drop out after today if they're in 5th position. Over the weekend there are two scheduled TV debates on C4 and ITV, so anything could technically happen once they're all in the same room in front of the cameras. Much more likely we'll get a drop out on Monday or after Monday's vote is in.
The Byrds, The Flying Burrito Brothers, Hendrix all do his songs much better than him.
But in reality the anti-woke objectors don't want to stop diversity training, they want to stop the march of diversity. They wouldn't be happy if big corporates stopped twatting about changing their logo to rainbow colours to support pride for their own box tick purposes, they just want to stop Pride.
I get it - change can be scary. But you can only shape it, you can't stop it.
We have a case study of this. The AU elections which the Coalition believed could be won by culture war issues instead were responded with “why the fuck does that matter I can’t eat”.
And Oz Labor weren’t even very good.
If you go down this road you’re going to lose.
This is very different to rock and roll or the suffrage movement.
The concepts of no platforming, 'safe spaces', online bubbles have made debate impossible meaning that views are not only going unchallenged but met with an absolute refusal to engage with anything with which you disagree.
Those are very unwelcome additions to our society alongside the denial of evidence and facts.
Hendrix possibly. But I'd argue that was so radical it barely qualifies as a cover version.
Dustin Johnson was -20 under at Augusta a couple of years ago. Tour events are regularly won at -15 to -25.
That isn't the case.
Engage with the substance please.
If we're going to go into the next era of politics we need a leader who recognises that more of the same isn't going to cut it. Kemi at least has thought about changing things, none of the other six have even hinted that they believe we need a new direction.
edited for redundancy
"you don't even want to hear about things outside of your echo chamber" - like getting worked up by companies advertising their opposition to domestic violence?
"denial of evidence and facts" - like refusing to acknowledge the economic harm caused by Brexit?
There is plenty of this kind of behaviour on the Right.
It is about counting characteristics and seeking to label everyone according to a checklist and to treat them accordingly.
It has nothing to do with celebrating the diversity of each individual and what they can bring. And it is all about creating uniformity and enforced group think
The Pride movement is fracturing because of this. I have sat in Pride meetings where the only thing in the D&I sphere the leadership is worried about is counting the number of black and brown faces in the room.
It is deeply frustrating to see a movement that still matters get torn apart from within by thinking which has stopped celebrating diversity and just wants uniformity.
Today we end up with 5
Monday 4
Tuesday 3
Wednesday the final 2
And with no clear winner if the vote goes to the members there is little to be gained by quitting early and supporting 1 of the final 2 unless you are 50 votes behind on the person in second place on Tuesday night.
I think there is a danger of extrapolating Australia to the rest of the world. Australia is the most urbanised society of the world - 85% of its population lives in (I think) the top 5 cities. We know from the US, UK etc that the cities and now the suburbs are becoming more progressive (no doubt there is an element of social conformity involved). However, the UK and US have plenty more people who live in smaller towns / rural; areas who don't have the same views. Ignore these at your peril.
Some old fashioned liberals (I am one) fear that what is occurring is a power play. Artificial extensions are rapidly being built to the concept of what constitutes 'harm'. This explains the bogus 'snowflake' phenomenon, whereby certain expressions of free speech come under threat, not because it will hurt my nose but because I can't cope with the trauma of having to be in the same room/country/planet as that thought.
This is also the danger of 'protected characteristics'. This is mostly about who gets to order whom around.
Woke is a function of volume, frequency, hectoring and dogma - not absolutes.
She may well boot Boris's sycophants out, but the first indications of how she will govern will be who she installs in their place.
Yes Johnson murdered it once, but they then make it more difficult (as they did when Tiger did) and the drop off to the others is huge....because the test is so severe. Most Masters only the top 15 or so finish under par at all, separating the best from the rest.
Here we are just seeing well past their prime golfers casually driving multiple par 4s in 1. With no wind, there is no challenge from distance required, width of fairways, need to control / shape the ball or tough greens.
https://order-order.com/2022/07/14/penny-is-transitioning-her-toxic-to-tories-trans-stance-for-the-membership/
As a nation we have become much more socially liberal in the past 20 years, the pace of change has been breathtaking as it has been in many societies in Western Europe. I support the progress that has been made.
We have gotten to where we are through measured rational debate and respect for individuals.
The concern I have now is that there is a somewhat troubling tendency to shut down debate. You do not drive progress (or certainly not for very long) by stifling debate. You engage and you bring people with you. At the moment I fear there is a tendency that in order to protect, sustain and advance social progress and liberalism in this country we have to deplatform, shame, ‘cancel’, ruin or embarrass people who hold differing points of view. This is helping contribute to the backlash that sustains the culture war.
Just my two cents. I’m now going to run to my bunker and hide.
What triggered this threadette was the typically hysterical Leon cherrypicking the worst chart possible and presenting it as a 'forecast' when it is no such thing.
My point about them not knowing what to do with her is that her ascendency represents all of Labour's fail points in a single person. How can this black female migrant be talking about a vision for the future which embodies change when she is a hated Tory racist?
Of course IANAE - shall we ask @Leon?
Edit: Met office says the weather is a bit drab in St Andrews for the next four days so onshore breezes not so likely. Generally light winds.
Twenty years ago we had a Labour Prime Minister who wanted people to be able to be imprisoned without trial.