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Sunak just edging it at the moment in the betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    kle4 said:

    Oh God, he's started again.


    Why did he even delete his first tweet? He obviously wants to just come out and say Tory Members are racists.

    Plus he's blocked several commentators from the last incident so should be gentler for him now.
    Is he wrong? Older Conservative members may well lean a certain way.

    My Grandfather now nearly 90 has some considerably un-twitterable views. Yet a staunch Conservative and from the membership of his local Conservative club not alone.

    If I was betting one of my heuristics would be that the white candidates might well benefit from a membership vote.
    Probably need to see all the head to heads. If Hunt beat Badenoch, that might suggest quite a big issue with race.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    For any rocketry geeks who missed Rocket Lab's Electron launch this morning, you have another opportunity in a short while.

    ArianeSpace are launching their newly updated Vega-C rocket for the first time. The stream should start in ten minutes.

    Watch here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgxx3A2FIQ8

    Cool. What an interesting rocket. Looks like it did what it was supposed to.
    Why are they talking in gibberish?
    They're French?
    Is it? Or is it Swahili? Sounds like someone gargling. They should stop it. Talk fucking English like a normal person. Talking a babbled foreign dialect in a serious moment or in some professional capacity is a ridiculous affectation, like me doing my driving test in mime
    You seem to be in a particularly good mood today! A particularly fine wine and sunset combination?
    I'm stone cold sober and it's only 3pm. However I do think six days of living right by the sea - it's literally 2 metres away from my bed and my living room - has energised me. All that ozone!

    I sun and swim every day, that's it. Most pleasant. I have to return to Blighty this week but I a minded to come back to Montenegro v soon
    I hope you will be able to cope with the hotter weather here.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited July 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Penny is tough and funny and forthright, and clearly despises Labour

    I like her

    See here:

    https://twitter.com/willbarnesUK/status/1546935189661687810?s=20&t=WepuULD-gLphxDtwo_iyiw

    I like her too. I think she can heal a lot of division in the party. Much better than the rest of the field.
    She's obviously got cullions, metaphorically, and she thinks quick. She's a liberal centrist but a patriotic Brexiteer. She might, as you say, unify the right

    Best of all she is not some billionaire posh bloke. Enough of those, thanks, for now

    I also think Starmer would seriously struggle against her. She's sharp
    Just to remind you old chap, the "patriotic Brexiteer" can be viewed by some of us as an oxymoron (Putin's preference and all that). If you separate it out, that means oxy for Patriotic and...well you know the rest.
    Just to remind you, old chap, the "patriotic Remainers" spent 40 years trying to tie us inextricably into a new foreign country - the EU.

    They were just morons.
    No, it was ours. We were in the driving seat, we shaped policy, we had vetos.

    We could come and go as we pleased, we could stay anywhere within 28 states for more than 90 days, hell, we could even live there with virtually no constraints. We owned the Eiffel Tower, we owned the Coliseum, the Parthenon, Prague and the Costa del Sol. These treasures belonged to us as much as they did the French, the Italians, the Greeks, the Czechs and the Spanish, and now they don't.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Penny is tough and funny and forthright, and clearly despises Labour

    I like her

    See here:

    https://twitter.com/willbarnesUK/status/1546935189661687810?s=20&t=WepuULD-gLphxDtwo_iyiw

    I like her too. I think she can heal a lot of division in the party. Much better than the rest of the field.
    She's obviously got cullions, metaphorically, and she thinks quick. She's a liberal centrist but a patriotic Brexiteer. She might, as you say, unify the right

    Best of all she is not some billionaire posh bloke. Enough of those, thanks, for now

    I also think Starmer would seriously struggle against her. She's sharp
    Just to remind you old chap, the "patriotic Brexiteer" can be viewed by some of us as an oxymoron (Putin's preference and all that). If you separate it out, that means oxy for Patriotic and...well you know the rest.
    Just to remind you, old chap, the "patriotic Remainers" spent 40 years trying to tie us inextricably into a new foreign country - the EU.

    They were just morons.
    I imagine that there are a huge number of "Remainers" who have done a lot more for their country than a two braincell fuckwit keyboard warrior like yourself.

    As for morons, not all people who voted Brexit are morons. Those that still believe in it (genuinely, not pretend like a lot of MPs) are the real morons. I guess you fit neatly into the latter category. By the way, Father Christmas is not real.
    PS. The EU isn't a country you ignorant fuckwit.
    Its become one though. Its a nascent one, an evolving federation, like 17th/18th century America or early Australia too.

    Its fairly rapidly evolving into one, and the Euro means that is only going to ratchet in one direction.
    Stop talking bollox you dimwit. Go back and read your Daily Express.
    You're the one talking bollocks. The EU is rapidly evolving and the pressure for it to evolve further is not over.

    You're as pig-ignorant as the fools who can't see past what today's opinion poll says and think that change from that is impossible. Evolution is very real and the pressure and precedent is there for EU to evolve into a federal nation.

    The EU already has power over almost everything federal nations tend to have power over, apart from defence and central tax-rising powers. EU Defence plans are constantly spoken about and are surely a matter of when, not if. The Euro also means that tax rising plans are surely a matter of when, not if, too.

    You're as naive as those who thought in the seventeenth century that the USA's Federal government would only delve into very limited areas. As time goes on the federal state inevitably centralises more and more power, and the EU is following that time-worn precedent as to how federations evolve.

    If you think evolution is going to end today, you've got another thing coming.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Today is probably the key day.

    I imagine the race will be down to 4 or even 3 by midnight.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316

    Phil said:

    If the Tories can think of nothing more effective to take them into the next GE than trying to fight this particular culture war, I suspect they’ll lose heavily.

    At any other time, sure: stirring up a good five minutes hate can be a great campaign strategy. But going into the worst cost of living crisis in a generation? Are ordinary people worrying about where their next meal is going to come from really going to be impressed by this kind of “Look, a squirrel!” campaigning?

    Maybe I‘m wrong & going full throttle on this stuff will turn out to be a great distraction from the electorate’s concerns about whether Granny is going to be able to afford to heat her home in the coming winter.

    It's not a culture-war thing, it's a sanity thing. Who wants to vote for someone so out with the fairies that they think, or more likely pretend to think, that men can get pregnant? It infests everything else they say, especially when they try to evade the question.

    Also, it is causing enormous practical problems. The NHS is being disrupted because they are terrified of falling foul of the trans lobby.
    On the list of NHS disruptions, this has to down somewhere below whether they’ve got enough toilet roll for the week I suspect. Come on.

    Again, as I said the first time: people might well get riled up about this stuff under other circumstances, but right now? I just don’t see it. I think it’s going to be seen as a massive distraction from the issues that people actually care about, regardless of their personal beliefs on the topic.

    I could be wrong of course: time will tell!
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited July 2022

    LOL. It was a YouGov poll.

    Didn't Zahawi set up this the company? Bet he wishes he hadn't bothered now.

    There’s a lot of things I bet he wishes he hadn’t bothered to do now, particularly in the past week.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    Nigelb said:

    Tom is missing his sergeant major who would have pointed out the glaring mistake with his logo 😂
    @TomTugendhat




    https://twitter.com/DominicFarrell/status/1547212488831369219

    Complete and utter, or just Blue ?
    Hilarious, but fake. His campaign logo is TOM
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Oh God, he's started again.


    What a plonker

    4 Women 2 of White and Non White
    4 Men 2 Non White 2 white

    Go find another leadership contest in UK that is as diverse.
    He is a person who deserves to be spoken of in language that is defamatory.
    And to have a fox stuffed up his Kimino
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Foxy said:

    Phil said:

    If the Tories can think of nothing more effective to take them into the next GE than trying to fight this particular culture war, I suspect they’ll lose heavily.

    At any other time, sure: stirring up a good five minutes hate can be a great campaign strategy. But going into the worst cost of living crisis in a generation? Are ordinary people worrying about where their next meal is going to come from really going to be impressed by this kind of “Look, a squirrel!” campaigning?

    Maybe I‘m wrong & going full throttle on this stuff will turn out to be a great distraction from the electorate’s concerns about whether Granny is going to be able to afford to heat her home in the coming winter.

    It's not a culture-war thing, it's a sanity thing. Who wants to vote for someone so out with the fairies that they think, or more likely pretend to think, that men can get pregnant? It infests everything else they say, especially when they try to evade the question.
    Well, we have had Trans-men give birth at my hospital. It really is no longer a rare event.

    No need to change the language for everyone else, but some sensitivity is needed for specific individuals.
    Sensitivity, of course. Forcing us all to lie, no.

    The particular disruption I'm thinking of is much worse than that, it's not just about language. Unfortunately I can't say more as it's not public knowledge. But of course some other examples have hit the news.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Penny is tough and funny and forthright, and clearly despises Labour

    I like her

    See here:

    https://twitter.com/willbarnesUK/status/1546935189661687810?s=20&t=WepuULD-gLphxDtwo_iyiw

    I like her too. I think she can heal a lot of division in the party. Much better than the rest of the field.
    She's obviously got cullions, metaphorically, and she thinks quick. She's a liberal centrist but a patriotic Brexiteer. She might, as you say, unify the right

    Best of all she is not some billionaire posh bloke. Enough of those, thanks, for now

    I also think Starmer would seriously struggle against her. She's sharp
    Just to remind you old chap, the "patriotic Brexiteer" can be viewed by some of us as an oxymoron (Putin's preference and all that). If you separate it out, that means oxy for Patriotic and...well you know the rest.
    Just to remind you, old chap, the "patriotic Remainers" spent 40 years trying to tie us inextricably into a new foreign country - the EU.

    They were just morons.
    I imagine that there are a huge number of "Remainers" who have done a lot more for their country than a two braincell fuckwit keyboard warrior like yourself.

    As for morons, not all people who voted Brexit are morons. Those that still believe in it (genuinely, not pretend like a lot of MPs) are the real morons. I guess you fit neatly into the latter category. By the way, Father Christmas is not real.
    PS. The EU isn't a country you ignorant fuckwit.
    Its become one though. Its a nascent one, an evolving federation, like 17th/18th century America or early Australia too.

    Its fairly rapidly evolving into one, and the Euro means that is only going to ratchet in one direction.
    Stop talking bollox you dimwit. Go back and read your Daily Express.
    You're the one talking bollocks. The EU is rapidly evolving and the pressure for it to evolve further is not over.

    You're as pig-ignorant as the fools who can't see past what today's opinion poll says and think that change from that is impossible. Evolution is very real and the pressure and precedent is there for EU to evolve into a federal nation.

    The EU already has power over almost everything federal nations tend to have power over, apart from defence and central tax-rising powers. EU Defence plans are constantly spoken about and are surely a matter of when, not if. The Euro also means that tax rising plans are surely a matter of when, not if, too.

    You're as naive as those who thought in the seventeenth century that the USA's Federal government would only delve into very limited areas. As time goes on the federal state inevitably centralises more and more power, and the EU is following that time-worn precedent as to how federations evolve.

    If you think evolution is going to end today, you've got another thing coming.
    Change your scratched record. It is not a country. Will it ever be? Not in my lifetime. In future who knows? In the future we might evolve back into apes and they will rule a world government. When I look at some of your posts I sometimes wonder if it hasn't already happened. Now go back to your Express. I am sure they predicted this heatwave didn't they?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,953
    edited July 2022

    Oh God, he's started again.


    Simply awful Yougov poll for Sunak, worse even than the Comhome survey. Not only is he trounced by Mordaunt or Truss in the membership vote he even loses to Tugendhadt or Badenoch. He looks like another Portillo or David Miliband at this point not another Cameron or Blair.

    Unless a major change he needs somehow to get Hunt into the last 2
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Today is probably the key day.

    I imagine the race will be down to 4 or even 3 by midnight.

    I can see Sunak's support collapsing if momentum builds around the idea he is unelectable. His supporters look like they are in it not because they believe in him but because they thought he would be the winner.

    What might be interesting is, if the MPs start to think Sunak is not electable and yet they are concerned about Mordaunt, whom do they pick to go into the runoff? LT or KB?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    philiph said:

    Oh God, he's started again.


    What a plonker

    4 Women 2 of White and Non White
    4 Men 2 Non White 2 white

    Go find another leadership contest in UK that is as diverse.
    He is a person who deserves to be spoken of in language that is defamatory.
    And to have a fox stuffed up his Kimino
    And the 2 white men are probably going to be out of the race very soon.
  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 500
    tlg86 said:


    kle4 said:

    Oh God, he's started again.


    Why did he even delete his first tweet? He obviously wants to just come out and say Tory Members are racists.

    Plus he's blocked several commentators from the last incident so should be gentler for him now.
    Is he wrong? Older Conservative members may well lean a certain way.

    My Grandfather now nearly 90 has some considerably un-twitterable views. Yet a staunch Conservative and from the membership of his local Conservative club not alone.

    If I was betting one of my heuristics would be that the white candidates might well benefit from a membership vote.
    Probably need to see all the head to heads. If Hunt beat Badenoch, that might suggest quite a big issue with race.
    Conservative Home panel: Badenoch loses only to Mordant, beats Shapps 56-24, Hunt 66-21, Tugendhat 58-27.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited July 2022
    My father is 87 and as kids we were always taught to take people as they come - race, sex, or sexuality. Even “trans”, and yes even when I was a kid there were one or two around.

    He was born in Birkenhead and grew up in working class Gosport and left school at 14 or 15.

    As far as I can tell I was very lucky, if one is to believe received opinion pretty much everyone back then was steeped in bigotry.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    kle4 said:

    Oh God, he's started again.


    Why did he even delete his first tweet? He obviously wants to just come out and say Tory Members are racists.

    Plus he's blocked several commentators from the last incident so should be gentler for him now.
    Is he wrong? Older Conservative members may well lean a certain way.

    My Grandfather now nearly 90 has some considerably un-twitterable views. Yet a staunch Conservative and from the membership of his local Conservative club not alone.

    If I was betting one of my heuristics would be that the white candidates might well benefit from a membership vote.
    Tell him to vote for “That nice lady from the colonies, who talks a bit like Margaret Thatcher”. #TeamKemi
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    HYUFD said:


    Oh God, he's started again.


    Simply awful Yougov poll for Sunak, worse even than the Comhome survey. Not only is he trounced by Mordaunt or Truss in the membership vote he even loses to Tugendhadt or Badenoch. He looks like another Portillo or David Miliband at this point not another Cameron or Blair.

    Unless a major change he needs somehow to get Hunt into the last 2
    He's even tied effectively with Braverman and Zahawi. F**king Hell.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Penny is tough and funny and forthright, and clearly despises Labour

    I like her

    See here:

    https://twitter.com/willbarnesUK/status/1546935189661687810?s=20&t=WepuULD-gLphxDtwo_iyiw

    I like her too. I think she can heal a lot of division in the party. Much better than the rest of the field.
    She's obviously got cullions, metaphorically, and she thinks quick. She's a liberal centrist but a patriotic Brexiteer. She might, as you say, unify the right

    Best of all she is not some billionaire posh bloke. Enough of those, thanks, for now

    I also think Starmer would seriously struggle against her. She's sharp
    Just to remind you old chap, the "patriotic Brexiteer" can be viewed by some of us as an oxymoron (Putin's preference and all that). If you separate it out, that means oxy for Patriotic and...well you know the rest.
    Just to remind you, old chap, the "patriotic Remainers" spent 40 years trying to tie us inextricably into a new foreign country - the EU.

    They were just morons.
    I imagine that there are a huge number of "Remainers" who have done a lot more for their country than a two braincell fuckwit keyboard warrior like yourself.

    As for morons, not all people who voted Brexit are morons. Those that still believe in it (genuinely, not pretend like a lot of MPs) are the real morons. I guess you fit neatly into the latter category. By the way, Father Christmas is not real.
    PS. The EU isn't a country you ignorant fuckwit.
    Its become one though. Its a nascent one, an evolving federation, like 17th/18th century America or early Australia too.

    Its fairly rapidly evolving into one, and the Euro means that is only going to ratchet in one direction.
    Stop talking bollox you dimwit. Go back and read your Daily Express.
    You're the one talking bollocks. The EU is rapidly evolving and the pressure for it to evolve further is not over.

    You're as pig-ignorant as the fools who can't see past what today's opinion poll says and think that change from that is impossible. Evolution is very real and the pressure and precedent is there for EU to evolve into a federal nation.

    The EU already has power over almost everything federal nations tend to have power over, apart from defence and central tax-rising powers. EU Defence plans are constantly spoken about and are surely a matter of when, not if. The Euro also means that tax rising plans are surely a matter of when, not if, too.

    You're as naive as those who thought in the seventeenth century that the USA's Federal government would only delve into very limited areas. As time goes on the federal state inevitably centralises more and more power, and the EU is following that time-worn precedent as to how federations evolve.

    If you think evolution is going to end today, you've got another thing coming.
    Change your scratched record. It is not a country. Will it ever be? Not in my lifetime. In future who knows? In the future we might evolve back into apes and they will rule a world government. When I look at some of your posts I sometimes wonder if it hasn't already happened. Now go back to your Express. I am sure they predicted this heatwave didn't they?
    It virtually is a country already. On almost every metric of what defines a country, it is one, already.

    If you're not expecting it to be one in your lifetime, I didn't realise you were that old, I certainly expect it will be a fully fledged one in my lifetime and definitely my children's lifetime. I expect before I'm retired let alone died it will have its own nascent defence forces and tax raising powers, at which point there is no legitimate way to say that it isn't a country anymore.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,403
    Mordaunt beats everyone with the membership on that poll.
    When do we get the first Stop Penny moves?
    5:01 I guess.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    dixiedean said:

    There's a difference between "despising" (which I think is too strong a word) your opponents, and dismissing them as completely without merit.
    Thatcher and Blair both won as highly partisan leaders because they were able to put themselves into the minds of a substantial section of those who traditionally didn't vote for them. And see the world through their eyes.
    So did Boris. For a bit.
    Not getting the idea any of this 8 do.

    Thatcher got a big assist from the temporary suspension of regular two-party politics. I'd put her separate to Blair and Johnson who tried to be many things to many people (and not coincidentally seem to lack a reputation commensurate to their electoral success).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Penny is tough and funny and forthright, and clearly despises Labour

    I like her

    See here:

    https://twitter.com/willbarnesUK/status/1546935189661687810?s=20&t=WepuULD-gLphxDtwo_iyiw

    I don't think despising Labour is really a strength. It's very difficult to win over the other side's voters if you are busy despising the party they vote for.
    Tell that to "Tory scum" Labour.....
    I would and do.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    My father is 87 and we were always taught to take people as they come - race, sex, or sexuality. Even “trans”, and yes even when I was a kid there were one or two around.

    He was born in Birkenhead and grew up in working class Gosport and left school at 14 or 15.

    As far as I can tell I was very lucky, if one is to believe received opinion pretty much everyone back then was steeped in bigotry.

    Hmm. Both ports and/or naval bases (certainly Merseyside in WW2).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    HYUFD said:


    Oh God, he's started again.


    Simply awful Yougov poll for Sunak, worse even than the Comhome survey. Not only is he trounced by Mordaunt or Truss in the membership vote he even loses to Tugendhadt or Badenoch. He looks like another Portillo or David Miliband at this point not another Cameron or Blair.

    Unless a major change he needs somehow to get Hunt into the last 2
    I'll like that, but disagree on the David Miliband point. At least he had the guts to knife Boris, David Miliband never did with Brown.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    HYUFD said:


    Oh God, he's started again.


    Simply awful Yougov poll for Sunak, worse even than the Comhome survey. Not only is he trounced by Mordaunt or Truss in the membership vote he even loses to Tugendhadt or Badenoch. He looks like another Portillo or David Miliband at this point not another Cameron or Blair.

    Unless a major change he needs somehow to get Hunt into the last 2
    Hunt won't be in the race for much longer.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited July 2022
    Carnyx said:

    My father is 87 and we were always taught to take people as they come - race, sex, or sexuality. Even “trans”, and yes even when I was a kid there were one or two around.

    He was born in Birkenhead and grew up in working class Gosport and left school at 14 or 15.

    As far as I can tell I was very lucky, if one is to believe received opinion pretty much everyone back then was steeped in bigotry.

    Hmm. Both ports and/or naval bases (certainly Merseyside in WW2).
    Yes, his father (my grandfather) was a “messman”.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    MrEd said:

    Today is probably the key day.

    I imagine the race will be down to 4 or even 3 by midnight.

    I can see Sunak's support collapsing if momentum builds around the idea he is unelectable. His supporters look like they are in it not because they believe in him but because they thought he would be the winner.

    What might be interesting is, if the MPs start to think Sunak is not electable and yet they are concerned about Mordaunt, whom do they pick to go into the runoff? LT or KB?
    Penny benefits most from a Sunak collapse I think precisely for the reason that I can’t see there are many who would naturally fit into a “Sunak not electable BUT concerned about Mordaunt” group.

    To the extent that there are a number who think that way, I guess they’d go to Truss because she has high-level government experience.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,765

    My father is 87 and we were always taught to take people as they come - race, sex, or sexuality. Even “trans”, and yes even when I was a kid there were one or two around.

    He was born in Birkenhead and grew up in working class Gosport and left school at 14 or 15.

    As far as I can tell I was very lucky, if one is to believe received opinion pretty much everyone back then was steeped in bigotry.

    At 87 he's a remarkable man if he has no prejudice that we might spot today. Of course he's also a remarkable for for allowing his son to wander aimlessly around the vegetable patch :)

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,313
    edited July 2022

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    For any rocketry geeks who missed Rocket Lab's Electron launch this morning, you have another opportunity in a short while.

    ArianeSpace are launching their newly updated Vega-C rocket for the first time. The stream should start in ten minutes.

    Watch here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgxx3A2FIQ8

    Cool. What an interesting rocket. Looks like it did what it was supposed to.
    Why are they talking in gibberish?
    They're French?
    Is it? Or is it Swahili? Sounds like someone gargling. They should stop it. Talk fucking English like a normal person. Talking a babbled foreign dialect in a serious moment or in some professional capacity is a ridiculous affectation, like me doing my driving test in mime
    You seem to be in a particularly good mood today! A particularly fine wine and sunset combination?
    I'm stone cold sober and it's only 3pm. However I do think six days of living right by the sea - it's literally 2 metres away from my bed and my living room - has energised me. All that ozone!

    I sun and swim every day, that's it. Most pleasant. I have to return to Blighty this week but I a minded to come back to Montenegro v soon
    My brother told me this morning he is heading to Tbilisi next month. What is you topper-most tip?
    Do all the obvious things. Eat khinkali, explore the old town (endlessly), do the cable car, see the churches, drink Georgian wine in some of the cool bars, check the flea market, have lunch by the river, it’s a really wonderful city

    But for a more unusual tip, visit Stalin’s Secret Underground Printing Lair, in the burbs. Crazy and eccentric but fascinating


  • Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:


    Oh God, he's started again.


    Simply awful Yougov poll for Sunak, worse even than the Comhome survey. Not only is he trounced by Mordaunt or Truss in the membership vote he even loses to Tugendhadt or Badenoch. He looks like another Portillo or David Miliband at this point not another Cameron or Blair.

    Unless a major change he needs somehow to get Hunt into the last 2
    Hunt won't be in the race for much longer.
    Will there even be a race for much longer?

    The way Sky are speaking, you'd expect Penny to be PM by the end of the week, by acclamation.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Phil said:


    On the list of NHS disruptions, this has to down somewhere below whether they’ve got enough toilet roll for the week I suspect.

    You suspect wrong.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658

    My father is 87 and we were always taught to take people as they come - race, sex, or sexuality. Even “trans”, and yes even when I was a kid there were one or two around.

    He was born in Birkenhead and grew up in working class Gosport and left school at 14 or 15.

    As far as I can tell I was very lucky, if one is to believe received opinion pretty much everyone back then was steeped in bigotry.

    I don't think everyone was steeped in bigotry, though certainly a lot of it about. From as soon as there were black populations here there have been inter-racial relationships. My folks are in their late Eighties, and my in Laws would have been. I don’t recall any of them making a racist statement or slur. My dad is really quite homophobic though.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206
    Cookie said:

    theProle said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    JESUS. I just solved basically every problem in the West

    Childless people should be taxed. Heavily


    That solves the demographic issue - bingo. It also brings in a ton of money for HMG. Bringing down debt and deficit

    SORTED

    The French do something similar, in effect. You get tax breaks for having children. It's unusual in the west in the high birth rates among middle class people.
    Yes but we need to get punitive. This is a demographic crisis. Your duty is to have kids. End of

    I SUPPOSE we can make exceptions for people without wombs etc, but other than that: slam them with harsh taxes, maybe even deny them normal human rights. Stop them joining choirs. Let them into larger cities only between 3-5pm. Why do they need to move around anyway if they don’t have kids?
    I'll admit that on a pretty meagre income I can live a 'decent' life in large part because I don't have a family to support. You have to be careful though. Some people are frankly not suited to being parents. The major problem as I see it is that if we know that some people won't have children and very few have more than two, then fertility rates are going to be below replacement level.

    The extortionate cost of housing for Gen Y/Z is the obvious problem.
    As someone recently married, and with the kids question looming, the financials are scary. Currently we're blessed by being very well off - probably ~£50kpa income between us after tax, we've two houses, both half paid off. If we sold one, we'd probably have £100k left after paying the other mortgage off.
    If we have a couple of kids, my wife will probably give up work at least for a while, we ideally need a bigger house, which probably means selling the remaining house for around £160k and spending £300-£400k (bigger ex-council houses aren't really a thing, and anything that isn't ex-council is a big step up in price).

    It's quite possible we'll end up with two kids, a £100k mortgage, and £25kpa post tax income, which is OK, but rather a change from the present situation where we literally can't spend money as fast as we're earning it.

    On the housing madness, I had some estate agents out to look at my wife's house in North Somerset on Monday. She bought in 2017 for £202.5k - all three agents thought we should get £250-260k - I.E. it's gained £10k in value a year. If we let it out, we should expect ~£900pcm.

    The whole situation seems both mad and unsustainable.
    When I had two children under three, on any given day I was going to work I was earning less than I was paying in childcare. It wasn't even a job I particularly enjoyed. I was basically going to work in order that a job would continue to exist for me at some later date when childcare costs lowered.

    We got through it though, and free childcare kicks in slightly earlier nowadays. It's scary, and there might be some lifestyle adjustments, but you won't have time to be out spending so much money anyway.

    It will however be more worthwhile than I can possibly explain to someone without kids or even to my younger self.
    Oh, don't worry - kids are worthwhile enough for us to go for it despite the relative financial hardship - we'll manage somehow.
    My point was more about the mad state of a country where family sized housing is virtually unaffordable, where a modest 2 bed terrace makes half the annual income of its occupant by price inflation alone, and where the whole system being based on having two full-time incomes to support the house price inflation, despite that then requiring the kids to be dumped into childcare. I'll be strongly encouraging my wife not to go back to work, certainly not full time, as long as we've got kids below secondary school age - I firmly believe that's much better all round (particularly for the kids) than chucking loads of money at childcare so you can keep on earning.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,531
    darkage said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Labour MP calling for tougher prison sentences for a range of crimes.

    Its standard. MPs think that fixes everything.
    I did wonder whether Braverman or Patel would pull out the 'bring back hanging' option.

    There isn't much that they can do on prison sentences, because they've passed lots of legislation to make them longer and creating lots of new imprisonable offences but now seem to have run out of obvious options. Doing this was a very short sighted policy in my view, it satisfies popular demands but forces future governments to pay the cost (of housing the prisoners).

    One thing they could do is bring more honesty to sentencing. Get rid of the system of early release after serving half your sentence. If you want to compensate for that then reduce the length of the sentence in the first place. Let that be the political battlefield. But people get heartily fed up of being told someone is sentenced to a set period but will only serve half of it. It makes sentencing meaningless.

    I am not necessarily even advocating people spend longer in jail - just that they do serve the time they are sentenced to. I seems a far more honesty way to do things for everyone.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:


    Oh God, he's started again.


    Simply awful Yougov poll for Sunak, worse even than the Comhome survey. Not only is he trounced by Mordaunt or Truss in the membership vote he even loses to Tugendhadt or Badenoch. He looks like another Portillo or David Miliband at this point not another Cameron or Blair.

    Unless a major change he needs somehow to get Hunt into the last 2
    Hunt won't be in the race for much longer.
    He'll be out of the Hunt.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    MrEd said:

    Today is probably the key day.

    I imagine the race will be down to 4 or even 3 by midnight.

    I can see Sunak's support collapsing if momentum builds around the idea he is unelectable. His supporters look like they are in it not because they believe in him but because they thought he would be the winner.

    What might be interesting is, if the MPs start to think Sunak is not electable and yet they are concerned about Mordaunt, whom do they pick to go into the runoff? LT or KB?
    Penny benefits most from a Sunak collapse I think precisely for the reason that I can’t see there are many who would naturally fit into a “Sunak not electable BUT concerned about Mordaunt” group.

    To the extent that there are a number who think that way, I guess they’d go to Truss because she has high-level government experience.

    Truss needs Sunak to hold his support up as much as possible !
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Penny is tough and funny and forthright, and clearly despises Labour

    I like her

    See here:

    https://twitter.com/willbarnesUK/status/1546935189661687810?s=20&t=WepuULD-gLphxDtwo_iyiw

    I like her too. I think she can heal a lot of division in the party. Much better than the rest of the field.
    She's obviously got cullions, metaphorically, and she thinks quick. She's a liberal centrist but a patriotic Brexiteer. She might, as you say, unify the right

    Best of all she is not some billionaire posh bloke. Enough of those, thanks, for now

    I also think Starmer would seriously struggle against her. She's sharp
    Just to remind you old chap, the "patriotic Brexiteer" can be viewed by some of us as an oxymoron (Putin's preference and all that). If you separate it out, that means oxy for Patriotic and...well you know the rest.
    Just to remind you, old chap, the "patriotic Remainers" spent 40 years trying to tie us inextricably into a new foreign country - the EU.

    They were just morons.
    I imagine that there are a huge number of "Remainers" who have done a lot more for their country than a two braincell fuckwit keyboard warrior like yourself.

    As for morons, not all people who voted Brexit are morons. Those that still believe in it (genuinely, not pretend like a lot of MPs) are the real morons. I guess you fit neatly into the latter category. By the way, Father Christmas is not real.
    PS. The EU isn't a country you ignorant fuckwit.
    Its become one though. Its a nascent one, an evolving federation, like 17th/18th century America or early Australia too.

    Its fairly rapidly evolving into one, and the Euro means that is only going to ratchet in one direction.
    Stop talking bollox you dimwit. Go back and read your Daily Express.
    You're the one talking bollocks. The EU is rapidly evolving and the pressure for it to evolve further is not over.

    You're as pig-ignorant as the fools who can't see past what today's opinion poll says and think that change from that is impossible. Evolution is very real and the pressure and precedent is there for EU to evolve into a federal nation.

    The EU already has power over almost everything federal nations tend to have power over, apart from defence and central tax-rising powers. EU Defence plans are constantly spoken about and are surely a matter of when, not if. The Euro also means that tax rising plans are surely a matter of when, not if, too.

    You're as naive as those who thought in the seventeenth century that the USA's Federal government would only delve into very limited areas. As time goes on the federal state inevitably centralises more and more power, and the EU is following that time-worn precedent as to how federations evolve.

    If you think evolution is going to end today, you've got another thing coming.
    Change your scratched record. It is not a country. Will it ever be? Not in my lifetime. In future who knows? In the future we might evolve back into apes and they will rule a world government. When I look at some of your posts I sometimes wonder if it hasn't already happened. Now go back to your Express. I am sure they predicted this heatwave didn't they?
    It virtually is a country already. On almost every metric of what defines a country, it is one, already.

    If you're not expecting it to be one in your lifetime, I didn't realise you were that old, I certainly expect it will be a fully fledged one in my lifetime and definitely my children's lifetime. I expect before I'm retired let alone died it will have its own nascent defence forces and tax raising powers, at which point there is no legitimate way to say that it isn't a country anymore.
    Lol. You are officially a weirdo. I guess I should be sympathetic as you are still in mourning over the defenestration of your idol whom you once described as the greatest PM in your lifetime (or was it ever?). You are a man of little brain and judgement. Have a lovely day. Bad luck on your Sunak bet btw. He is almost as shit as Johnson, but I guess you can't tell these sort of things.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Oh God, he's started again.


    Why did he even delete his first tweet? He obviously wants to just come out and say Tory Members are racists.

    Plus he's blocked several commentators from the last incident so should be gentler for him now.
    Is he wrong? Older Conservative members may well lean a certain way.

    My Grandfather now nearly 90 has some considerably un-twitterable views. Yet a staunch Conservative and from the membership of his local Conservative club not alone.

    If I was betting one of my heuristics would be that the white candidates might well benefit from a membership vote.
    Tell him to vote for “That nice lady from the colonies, who talks a bit like Margaret Thatcher”. #TeamKemi
    We do tend to avoid politics...

    He would be and is pleasant to anyone. A superb and prescient farmer in his day but now steeped in news+comment from the declining Telegraph and presently GB News.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,900

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:


    Oh God, he's started again.


    Simply awful Yougov poll for Sunak, worse even than the Comhome survey. Not only is he trounced by Mordaunt or Truss in the membership vote he even loses to Tugendhadt or Badenoch. He looks like another Portillo or David Miliband at this point not another Cameron or Blair.

    Unless a major change he needs somehow to get Hunt into the last 2
    Hunt won't be in the race for much longer.
    Will there even be a race for much longer?

    The way Sky are speaking, you'd expect Penny to be PM by the end of the week, by acclamation.
    Boris mentioned it too so presumably Number 10 is preparing for a swift handover.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Andy_JS said:

    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    Bottom three, if not four, out tonight?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803

    My father is 87 and as kids we were always taught to take people as they come - race, sex, or sexuality. Even “trans”, and yes even when I was a kid there were one or two around.

    He was born in Birkenhead and grew up in working class Gosport and left school at 14 or 15.

    As far as I can tell I was very lucky, if one is to believe received opinion pretty much everyone back then was steeped in bigotry.

    My grandmother was born in 1914. She was very small c conservative - I think she was a Christian Scientist - but she was also, once you got to spot it, tremendously accepting of people who did not conform. Only you didn't find out about it, because 'acceptance' in those days meant accepting them for who they were and not really going on about it, and also respecting their privacy.
    It was probably more easy to be accepting if you knew one or two people who were gay. I'm sure there was a lot of bigotry around, and perhaps a lot of that was because there were no publicly gay people; so most people didn't know - or didn't know they knew - anyone gay.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316

    Phil said:


    On the list of NHS disruptions, this has to down somewhere below whether they’ve got enough toilet roll for the week I suspect.

    You suspect wrong.
    Can you actually explain why, or are you simply going to loftily assert that this is a massive issue for the NHS & leave the rest of us to take you at your word?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited July 2022
    ...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    30 seconds to go.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Pulpstar said:

    MrEd said:

    Today is probably the key day.

    I imagine the race will be down to 4 or even 3 by midnight.

    I can see Sunak's support collapsing if momentum builds around the idea he is unelectable. His supporters look like they are in it not because they believe in him but because they thought he would be the winner.

    What might be interesting is, if the MPs start to think Sunak is not electable and yet they are concerned about Mordaunt, whom do they pick to go into the runoff? LT or KB?
    Penny benefits most from a Sunak collapse I think precisely for the reason that I can’t see there are many who would naturally fit into a “Sunak not electable BUT concerned about Mordaunt” group.

    To the extent that there are a number who think that way, I guess they’d go to Truss because she has high-level government experience.

    Truss needs Sunak to hold his support up as much as possible !
    Agreed. Cleanest path for Truss is squeezing Mordaunt out in the final MP round and setting up a contest with Rishi.

    For that reason she needs Rishi to stay strong. If Penny becomes frontrunner a lot of the Rishi support (which I suspect is fairly soft and based on the fact he WAS the frontrunner) will go to Penny. That potentially sets up Penny vs Truss which won’t be a great matchup for Liz.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    And the ballot box closes.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,831
    Am I right in thinking we won't get the results until 5pm?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,313
    If Hunt goes where do his MPs go? A few to Sunak surely but many will be wanting to stop Truss and Badenoch reaching the last two, so Mordaunt

    This is maybe how she wins. She is the stop everyone else candidate, who is herself widely acceptable
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    MrEd said:

    Today is probably the key day.

    I imagine the race will be down to 4 or even 3 by midnight.

    I can see Sunak's support collapsing if momentum builds around the idea he is unelectable. His supporters look like they are in it not because they believe in him but because they thought he would be the winner.

    What might be interesting is, if the MPs start to think Sunak is not electable and yet they are concerned about Mordaunt, whom do they pick to go into the runoff? LT or KB?
    It does feel a bit snowbally, in that he might do ok with members but now people have heard he us toxic the Mps will get nervous,, he does less well than expected, and that reinforces the idea with members hes bad.

    But leaders have to overcome this sort of thing. If he cannot, well, it speaks for itself.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    Bottom three, if not four, out tonight?
    Possibly. Anyone getting 30 to 35 votes will come under big pressure to call it a day.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    For any rocketry geeks who missed Rocket Lab's Electron launch this morning, you have another opportunity in a short while.

    ArianeSpace are launching their newly updated Vega-C rocket for the first time. The stream should start in ten minutes.

    Watch here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgxx3A2FIQ8

    Cool. What an interesting rocket. Looks like it did what it was supposed to.
    Why are they talking in gibberish?
    They're French?
    Is it? Or is it Swahili? Sounds like someone gargling. They should stop it. Talk fucking English like a normal person. Talking a babbled foreign dialect in a serious moment or in some professional capacity is a ridiculous affectation, like me doing my driving test in mime
    You seem to be in a particularly good mood today! A particularly fine wine and sunset combination?
    I'm stone cold sober and it's only 3pm. However I do think six days of living right by the sea - it's literally 2 metres away from my bed and my living room - has energised me. All that ozone!

    I sun and swim every day, that's it. Most pleasant. I have to return to Blighty this week but I a minded to come back to Montenegro v soon
    My brother told me this morning he is heading to Tbilisi next month. What is you topper-most tip?
    Do all the obvious things. Eat khinkali, explore the old town (endlessly), do the cable car, see the churches, drink Georgian wine in some of the cool bars, check the flea market, have lunch by the river, it’s a really wonderful city

    But for a more unusual tip, visit Stalin’s Secret Underground Printing Lair, in the burbs. Crazy and eccentric but fascinating


    Thanks, I have passed on to him.

    The lucky bleeder, he is single and appears to get about 8 weeks holiday a year…
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803
    Andy_JS said:

    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    4.33 for Sunak at this stage is remarkable. I suppose the market just doesn't think he beats whoever he comes up against in the member ballot. How reliable do we think the polls on this are? I see no reason for them to be too far out, but there is also a lot of scope between now and the members' ballot for people to change their minds and my guess is a lot of minds aren't firmly made up.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,403

    Am I right in thinking we won't get the results until 5pm?

    If they employed the counters from the NE we'd know the results by now.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    EU says Lithuania must allow rail transit of Russian goods to Kaliningrad

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1547226103978364930
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:


    Oh God, he's started again.


    Simply awful Yougov poll for Sunak, worse even than the Comhome survey. Not only is he trounced by Mordaunt or Truss in the membership vote he even loses to Tugendhadt or Badenoch. He looks like another Portillo or David Miliband at this point not another Cameron or Blair.

    Unless a major change he needs somehow to get Hunt into the last 2
    Hunt won't be in the race for much longer.
    Will there even be a race for much longer?

    The way Sky are speaking, you'd expect Penny to be PM by the end of the week, by acclamation.
    All 8 candidates agreed with the 1922 that no one would drop out of the final two.

    Of course, they might break a promise, being politicians and all.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    Round 1 Voting Is Complete.

    And the winner is Mike Smithson .... Did you ever doubt it? ... :smiley:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    dixiedean said:

    Am I right in thinking we won't get the results until 5pm?

    If they employed the counters from the NE we'd know the results by now.
    Get the Sunderland students in to count them!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Foxy said:

    My father is 87 and we were always taught to take people as they come - race, sex, or sexuality. Even “trans”, and yes even when I was a kid there were one or two around.

    He was born in Birkenhead and grew up in working class Gosport and left school at 14 or 15.

    As far as I can tell I was very lucky, if one is to believe received opinion pretty much everyone back then was steeped in bigotry.

    I don't think everyone was steeped in bigotry, though certainly a lot of it about. From as soon as there were black populations here there have been inter-racial relationships. My folks are in their late Eighties, and my in Laws would have been. I don’t recall any of them making a racist statement or slur. My dad is really quite homophobic though.
    My father was a self made man. The Son of a Welsh church mouse poor coal miner, who never forgot or forgave that. He was Labour 'til he died. I suspect in the darkest recesses of his mind there were some racial issues, but certainly off the scale homophobic.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,900
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    Bottom three, if not four, out tonight?
    Tugendhat and Hunt are (probably) fishing in the same pool so it might depend on distribution. Likewise Badenoch and Braverman but Kemi should be safe.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,313
    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    4.33 for Sunak at this stage is remarkable. I suppose the market just doesn't think he beats whoever he comes up against in the member ballot. How reliable do we think the polls on this are? I see no reason for them to be too far out, but there is also a lot of scope between now and the members' ballot for people to change their minds and my guess is a lot of minds aren't firmly made up.
    He’s in danger of being overtaken by Truss
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    darkage said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Labour MP calling for tougher prison sentences for a range of crimes.

    Its standard. MPs think that fixes everything.
    I did wonder whether Braverman or Patel would pull out the 'bring back hanging' option.

    There isn't much that they can do on prison sentences, because they've passed lots of legislation to make them longer and creating lots of new imprisonable offences but now seem to have run out of obvious options. Doing this was a very short sighted policy in my view, it satisfies popular demands but forces future governments to pay the cost (of housing the prisoners).

    One thing they could do is bring more honesty to sentencing. Get rid of the system of early release after serving half your sentence. If you want to compensate for that then reduce the length of the sentence in the first place. Let that be the political battlefield. But people get heartily fed up of being told someone is sentenced to a set period but will only serve half of it. It makes sentencing meaningless.

    I am not necessarily even advocating people spend longer in jail - just that they do serve the time they are sentenced to. I seems a far more honesty way to do things for everyone.
    Even before that - they could try and spend some money on the justice side of the legal criminal system so court cases are heard within a sane period of time. And by a sane period of time I mean 12 months from the offence occurring and not the 2 years plus that is currently very common.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Leon said:

    If Hunt goes where do his MPs go? A few to Sunak surely but many will be wanting to stop Truss and Badenoch reaching the last two, so Mordaunt

    This is maybe how she wins. She is the stop everyone else candidate, who is herself widely acceptable

    They go to Tugendhat if he's still in the race.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557

    Am I right in thinking we won't get the results until 5pm?

    Yes. Does anyone know whether the candidates get informed of the result before it's officially announced?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,313
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    If Hunt goes where do his MPs go? A few to Sunak surely but many will be wanting to stop Truss and Badenoch reaching the last two, so Mordaunt

    This is maybe how she wins. She is the stop everyone else candidate, who is herself widely acceptable

    They go to Tugendhat if he's still in the race.
    Really? What’s the point? He can’t win
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited July 2022

    EU says Lithuania must allow rail transit of Russian goods to Kaliningrad

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1547226103978364930

    Why?

    EU legal moves to make them will take a long time.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    kle4 said:

    EU says Lithuania must allow rail transit of Russian goods to Kaliningrad

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1547226103978364930

    Why?
    Germany blinked.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    EU says Lithuania must allow rail transit of Russian goods to Kaliningrad

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1547226103978364930

    That’s a nice railway line you’ve got there, would be a shame if anything happened to it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited July 2022
    Cookie said:

    My father is 87 and as kids we were always taught to take people as they come - race, sex, or sexuality. Even “trans”, and yes even when I was a kid there were one or two around.

    He was born in Birkenhead and grew up in working class Gosport and left school at 14 or 15.

    As far as I can tell I was very lucky, if one is to believe received opinion pretty much everyone back then was steeped in bigotry.

    My grandmother was born in 1914. She was very small c conservative - I think she was a Christian Scientist - but she was also, once you got to spot it, tremendously accepting of people who did not conform. Only you didn't find out about it, because 'acceptance' in those days meant accepting them for who they were and not really going on about it, and also respecting their privacy.
    It was probably more easy to be accepting if you knew one or two people who were gay. I'm sure there was a lot of bigotry around, and perhaps a lot of that was because there were no publicly gay people; so most people didn't know - or didn't know they knew - anyone gay.
    Yes, to some extent.
    My father never sat us down and said “let’s celebrate pride month” (not that it existed or course).

    However we were frequently instructed that everyone deserves respect and that people’s personal lives were entirely their own business.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    mordaunt

    verb, UK

    INTRANSITIVE - to claim everything you ever said was not what you said, and/or, to claim other’s words/deeds as your own.


    https://twitter.com/PaulPfj/status/1546990693448663041
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited July 2022
    Bad news for Hunt. Maybe the deal with Esther McVey wasn't such a good idea.

    "Kate Ferguson
    @kateferguson4
    Hearing that Jeremy Hunt vote has collapsed and that he is privately conceding.
    Cannot know this for sure as it’s a secret ballot… but have been told that
    3:03 PM · Jul 13, 2022·Twitter for iPhone"

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1547220067510898688
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    There is also the slight curiosity of Starmer going for Sunak at PMQs today.

    What was the purpose of that? Was it to try and nix his chances on the basis that they are concerned about him? Or was it because Labour assume he is going to win and they are getting the attack lines in early?

    To me the latter seems most likely but if that’s right it strikes me as a misreading of the situation. It may however had the unintended consequence of putting some Tory MPs off?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    mordaunt

    verb, UK

    INTRANSITIVE - to claim everything you ever said was not what you said, and/or, to claim other’s words/deeds as your own.


    https://twitter.com/PaulPfj/status/1546990693448663041

    Ouch!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,313
    Surely the result will leak soon, and we’ll see movement in the markets

    It’s only 360 votes. Will take 30 minutes to count
  • theakestheakes Posts: 930
    If the YouGov poll is right, there may only be one candidate by this time next week.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Phil said:

    Phil said:


    On the list of NHS disruptions, this has to down somewhere below whether they’ve got enough toilet roll for the week I suspect.

    You suspect wrong.
    Can you actually explain why, or are you simply going to loftily assert that this is a massive issue for the NHS & leave the rest of us to take you at your word?
    The latter, I'm afraid. As it is confidential and quite sensitive, you'll have to take my word for it, and, if you have any sense, you will.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    4.33 for Sunak at this stage is remarkable. I suppose the market just doesn't think he beats whoever he comes up against in the member ballot. How reliable do we think the polls on this are? I see no reason for them to be too far out, but there is also a lot of scope between now and the members' ballot for people to change their minds and my guess is a lot of minds aren't firmly made up.
    Any price needs to be based on both MPs and members.

    Both Truss and Mordaunt are 1-10 shots vs Sunak, the members won't change their minds THAT much.
    It won't be by acclamation now - which is his only hope.

    I think the true prices should be something like

    Mordaunt 1.8
    Truss 3
    Sunak 10
    Badenoch 30
    Tugendhat 50
    Zahawi 200
    Braverman 200
    Hunt 200
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:


    Oh God, he's started again.


    Simply awful Yougov poll for Sunak, worse even than the Comhome survey. Not only is he trounced by Mordaunt or Truss in the membership vote he even loses to Tugendhadt or Badenoch. He looks like another Portillo or David Miliband at this point not another Cameron or Blair.

    Unless a major change he needs somehow to get Hunt into the last 2
    Hunt won't be in the race for much longer.
    Will there even be a race for much longer?

    The way Sky are speaking, you'd expect Penny to be PM by the end of the week, by acclamation.
    All 8 candidates agreed with the 1922 that no one would drop out of the final two.

    Of course, they might break a promise, being politicians and all.
    Though thinking about it, that doesn't exclude 7 withdrawing before the round of 2 is decided.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Andy_JS said:

    Bad news for Hunt. Maybe the deal with Esther McVey wasn't such a good idea.

    "Kate Ferguson
    @kateferguson4
    Hearing that Jeremy Hunt vote has collapsed and that he is privately conceding.
    Cannot know this for sure as it’s a secret ballot… but have been told that
    3:03 PM · Jul 13, 2022·Twitter for iPhone"

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1547220067510898688

    I think the McVey deal was a curious move but I think more crucially Jeremy Hunt comes across as yesterdays man and wasn’t able to play a convincing king over the water.

    I hope he does join the government again though, under the new leader.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    If Hunt goes where do his MPs go? A few to Sunak surely but many will be wanting to stop Truss and Badenoch reaching the last two, so Mordaunt

    This is maybe how she wins. She is the stop everyone else candidate, who is herself widely acceptable

    They go to Tugendhat if he's still in the race.
    Briefly, then.....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    O/T

    "The snobbery of Brits abroad
    Tourism thrives on class anxiety
    BY LUCY LETHBRIDGE"

    https://unherd.com/2022/07/why-brits-are-snobs-abroad/
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,242
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    For any rocketry geeks who missed Rocket Lab's Electron launch this morning, you have another opportunity in a short while.

    ArianeSpace are launching their newly updated Vega-C rocket for the first time. The stream should start in ten minutes.

    Watch here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgxx3A2FIQ8

    Cool. What an interesting rocket. Looks like it did what it was supposed to.
    Why are they talking in gibberish?
    They're French?
    Is it? Or is it Swahili? Sounds like someone gargling. They should stop it. Talk fucking English like a normal person. Talking a babbled foreign dialect in a serious moment or in some professional capacity is a ridiculous affectation, like me doing my driving test in mime
    You seem to be in a particularly good mood today! A particularly fine wine and sunset combination?
    I'm stone cold sober and it's only 3pm. However I do think six days of living right by the sea - it's literally 2 metres away from my bed and my living room - has energised me. All that ozone!

    I sun and swim every day, that's it. Most pleasant. I have to return to Blighty this week but I a minded to come back to Montenegro v soon
    My brother told me this morning he is heading to Tbilisi next month. What is you topper-most tip?
    Do all the obvious things. Eat khinkali, explore the old town (endlessly), do the cable car, see the churches, drink Georgian wine in some of the cool bars, check the flea market, have lunch by the river, it’s a really wonderful city

    But for a more unusual tip, visit Stalin’s Secret Underground Printing Lair, in the burbs. Crazy and eccentric but fascinating


    Do walk up/down from the castle at least once, don't take the cable car both ways. Then you can drink wine bought from some random old bloke served out of a plastic pop bottle at about a lari a pop. (I agree about the cool bars, by the way, although I don't think the one I frequented the most, Amber, is still there).

    Go to Abanotubani and have a sulphur bath.

    Take a minibus trip out of town and visit Gori, the Stalin birthplace museum. Has even greater relevance today.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    If Hunt goes where do his MPs go? A few to Sunak surely but many will be wanting to stop Truss and Badenoch reaching the last two, so Mordaunt

    This is maybe how she wins. She is the stop everyone else candidate, who is herself widely acceptable

    They go to Tugendhat if he's still in the race.
    Really? What’s the point? He can’t win
    Well, Hunt backers do have form in backing someone who is not going to win!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    kle4 said:

    EU says Lithuania must allow rail transit of Russian goods to Kaliningrad

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1547226103978364930

    Why?
    Germany blinked.
    Tough - any idea what the consequences are for Lithuania if they don't do what the EU says?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,720
    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    4.33 for Sunak at this stage is remarkable. I suppose the market just doesn't think he beats whoever he comes up against in the member ballot. How reliable do we think the polls on this are? I see no reason for them to be too far out, but there is also a lot of scope between now and the members' ballot for people to change their minds and my guess is a lot of minds aren't firmly made up.
    Any price needs to be based on both MPs and members.

    Both Truss and Mordaunt are 1-10 shots vs Sunak, the members won't change their minds THAT much.
    It won't be by acclamation now - which is his only hope.

    I think the true prices should be something like

    Mordaunt 1.8
    Truss 3
    Sunak 10
    Badenoch 30
    Tugendhat 50
    Zahawi 200
    Braverman 200
    Hunt 200
    MPs alone should choose a new PM when the party is in office imho.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    It seems the Tories don't like hard truths. So the magic money tree with either PM or Truss it is.
    I'm crying into my Betfair position here :(
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,313

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    For any rocketry geeks who missed Rocket Lab's Electron launch this morning, you have another opportunity in a short while.

    ArianeSpace are launching their newly updated Vega-C rocket for the first time. The stream should start in ten minutes.

    Watch here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgxx3A2FIQ8

    Cool. What an interesting rocket. Looks like it did what it was supposed to.
    Why are they talking in gibberish?
    They're French?
    Is it? Or is it Swahili? Sounds like someone gargling. They should stop it. Talk fucking English like a normal person. Talking a babbled foreign dialect in a serious moment or in some professional capacity is a ridiculous affectation, like me doing my driving test in mime
    You seem to be in a particularly good mood today! A particularly fine wine and sunset combination?
    I'm stone cold sober and it's only 3pm. However I do think six days of living right by the sea - it's literally 2 metres away from my bed and my living room - has energised me. All that ozone!

    I sun and swim every day, that's it. Most pleasant. I have to return to Blighty this week but I a minded to come back to Montenegro v soon
    My brother told me this morning he is heading to Tbilisi next month. What is you topper-most tip?
    Do all the obvious things. Eat khinkali, explore the old town (endlessly), do the cable car, see the churches, drink Georgian wine in some of the cool bars, check the flea market, have lunch by the river, it’s a really wonderful city

    But for a more unusual tip, visit Stalin’s Secret Underground Printing Lair, in the burbs. Crazy and eccentric but fascinating


    Do walk up/down from the castle at least once, don't take the cable car both ways. Then you can drink wine bought from some random old bloke served out of a plastic pop bottle at about a lari a pop. (I agree about the cool bars, by the way, although I don't think the one I frequented the most, Amber, is still there).

    Go to Abanotubani and have a sulphur bath.

    Take a minibus trip out of town and visit Gori, the Stalin birthplace museum. Has even greater relevance today.
    Agreed. Gori is fantastically weird and interesting
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    4.33 for Sunak at this stage is remarkable. I suppose the market just doesn't think he beats whoever he comes up against in the member ballot. How reliable do we think the polls on this are? I see no reason for them to be too far out, but there is also a lot of scope between now and the members' ballot for people to change their minds and my guess is a lot of minds aren't firmly made up.
    He’s in danger of being overtaken by Truss
    Ahem. Me, some few weeks back, on here. Before Boris was even at risk of a further putsch, before Pincher got all handsy:

    "the final two will be Mordaunt v Truss, which Mordaunt will win...."

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    There shouldn't be any leaks when it's 5 people counting the votes in a room with the door closed.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:


    Oh God, he's started again.


    Simply awful Yougov poll for Sunak, worse even than the Comhome survey. Not only is he trounced by Mordaunt or Truss in the membership vote he even loses to Tugendhadt or Badenoch. He looks like another Portillo or David Miliband at this point not another Cameron or Blair.

    Unless a major change he needs somehow to get Hunt into the last 2
    Hunt won't be in the race for much longer.
    Will there even be a race for much longer?

    The way Sky are speaking, you'd expect Penny to be PM by the end of the week, by acclamation.
    All 8 candidates agreed with the 1922 that no one would drop out of the final two.

    Of course, they might break a promise, being politicians and all.
    Are there not some televised debates over the weekend?

    If you’re a candidate like Badenoch or Tugendhat and you’re still in the game, you might quite fancy hanging around for those to build your profile a little more…

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited July 2022
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    If Hunt goes where do his MPs go? A few to Sunak surely but many will be wanting to stop Truss and Badenoch reaching the last two, so Mordaunt

    This is maybe how she wins. She is the stop everyone else candidate, who is herself widely acceptable

    They go to Tugendhat if he's still in the race.
    Really? What’s the point? He can’t win
    It depends on how well Tugendhat does in this round. Tugendhat is the reason Hunt has done so badly — they're both the same type of candidate going for the same voters.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,567
    eek said:

    kle4 said:

    EU says Lithuania must allow rail transit of Russian goods to Kaliningrad

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1547226103978364930

    Why?
    Germany blinked.
    Tough - any idea what the consequences are for Lithuania if they don't do what the EU says?
    They'll get a bunch of aid from the UK?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,313

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    4.33 for Sunak at this stage is remarkable. I suppose the market just doesn't think he beats whoever he comes up against in the member ballot. How reliable do we think the polls on this are? I see no reason for them to be too far out, but there is also a lot of scope between now and the members' ballot for people to change their minds and my guess is a lot of minds aren't firmly made up.
    He’s in danger of being overtaken by Truss
    Ahem. Me, some few weeks back, on here. Before Boris was even at risk of a further putsch, before Pincher got all handsy:

    "the final two will be Mordaunt v Truss, which Mordaunt will win...."

    Fair play. If that verifies it’s a brilliant prediction!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Lithuania would do best to ignore the EU (who in the EU?) and carry on. The EU clearly needs a mechanism whereby certain rules may be suspended in a security crisis.

    A court can look into this in 2030 or something.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,403
    Andy_JS said:

    There shouldn't be any leaks when it's 5 people counting the votes in a room with the door closed.

    5 people counting 360 votes in 1 hour 30 minutes.
    And they say we've a problem with productivity?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    If Hunt goes where do his MPs go? A few to Sunak surely but many will be wanting to stop Truss and Badenoch reaching the last two, so Mordaunt

    This is maybe how she wins. She is the stop everyone else candidate, who is herself widely acceptable

    They go to Tugendhat if he's still in the race.
    Really? What’s the point? He can’t win
    It depends on how well Tugendhat does in this round. Tugendhat is the reason Hunt has done so badly — they're both the same type of candidate going for the same voters.
    And they probably don’t have 60 votes between them.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    theProle said:

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    JESUS. I just solved basically every problem in the West

    Childless people should be taxed. Heavily


    That solves the demographic issue - bingo. It also brings in a ton of money for HMG. Bringing down debt and deficit

    SORTED

    The French do something similar, in effect. You get tax breaks for having children. It's unusual in the west in the high birth rates among middle class people.
    Yes but we need to get punitive. This is a demographic crisis. Your duty is to have kids. End of

    I SUPPOSE we can make exceptions for people without wombs etc, but other than that: slam them with harsh taxes, maybe even deny them normal human rights. Stop them joining choirs. Let them into larger cities only between 3-5pm. Why do they need to move around anyway if they don’t have kids?
    I'll admit that on a pretty meagre income I can live a 'decent' life in large part because I don't have a family to support. You have to be careful though. Some people are frankly not suited to being parents. The major problem as I see it is that if we know that some people won't have children and very few have more than two, then fertility rates are going to be below replacement level.

    The extortionate cost of housing for Gen Y/Z is the obvious problem.
    As someone recently married, and with the kids question looming, the financials are scary. Currently we're blessed by being very well off - probably ~£50kpa income between us after tax, we've two houses, both half paid off. If we sold one, we'd probably have £100k left after paying the other mortgage off.
    If we have a couple of kids, my wife will probably give up work at least for a while, we ideally need a bigger house, which probably means selling the remaining house for around £160k and spending £300-£400k (bigger ex-council houses aren't really a thing, and anything that isn't ex-council is a big step up in price).

    It's quite possible we'll end up with two kids, a £100k mortgage, and £25kpa post tax income, which is OK, but rather a change from the present situation where we literally can't spend money as fast as we're earning it.

    On the housing madness, I had some estate agents out to look at my wife's house in North Somerset on Monday. She bought in 2017 for £202.5k - all three agents thought we should get £250-260k - I.E. it's gained £10k in value a year. If we let it out, we should expect ~£900pcm.

    The whole situation seems both mad and unsustainable.
    It all seems impossible, but it somehow works out.

    I don't think you need to go down to one income for very long. There is good tax breaks for childcare, and 1x person can earn about £10k almost tax free.

    The other thing I see getting older, is that people without children often sink in to serious depression in their 40's and onwards.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    Pulpstar said:

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    These are the Betfair Sportsbook odds as opposed to Betfair Exchange:

    Mordaunt 1.67
    Sunak 4.33
    Truss 4.5
    Badenoch 19
    Tugendhat 34
    Hunt 81
    Braverman 101
    Zahawi 126

    https://www.betfair.com/sport/politics

    4.33 for Sunak at this stage is remarkable. I suppose the market just doesn't think he beats whoever he comes up against in the member ballot. How reliable do we think the polls on this are? I see no reason for them to be too far out, but there is also a lot of scope between now and the members' ballot for people to change their minds and my guess is a lot of minds aren't firmly made up.
    Any price needs to be based on both MPs and members.

    Both Truss and Mordaunt are 1-10 shots vs Sunak, the members won't change their minds THAT much.
    It won't be by acclamation now - which is his only hope.

    I think the true prices should be something like

    Mordaunt 1.8
    Truss 3
    Sunak 10
    Badenoch 30
    Tugendhat 50
    Zahawi 200
    Braverman 200
    Hunt 200
    You think it is 1/10 that Mordaunt or Truss don't get through the next week intact only to have such a shocker as the only candidate against Sunak that it changes things around? There are a lot of DKs and match up polling where the lead candidate is on around 50 at the moment.

    Sunak is a clear second best against most likely opponents, but I'd think of those opponents as more 1/4ish than 1/10 shots.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    THIS THREAD HAS BEEN ELIMINATED
This discussion has been closed.