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The battle to find Starmer’s succesor as LOTO? – politicalbetting.com

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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    kjh said:

    As per normal, because of my poor English I have to correct a misunderstanding of one of my posts yesterday. I seem to need to do this every day. I'm blaming using a phone to post and nothing to do with my incompetence. Sorry for the delay in responding but I'm only just back.

    So @dixiedean I wasn't suggesting Comprehensives don't stream. I agree with you and I don't know any that don't. My point was that because they stream and set classes they provide the same benefits of grammars except it is ongoing and not some crude cut off at 11 which also doesn't allow for kids who might be bright in some subjects and rubbish in others and also doesn't allow for kids who might be late starters or who have peaked early.

    My experience of this in the early 60s was traumatic and although this wouldn't happen today to this extent, I was excluded from languages and literature and had to do completely inappropriate subjects (practical ones for which I had no talent) because I was a late academic starter (although my maths ability was always there, but as an awkward youngster it wasn't spotted eg I refused to learn times tables as I thought it pointless). My failure to learn a language is something I have always regretted.

    @Sandpit you came up with a very interesting idea about doing grammars in reverse. That is selecting the bottom 10%. I find this very interesting. An obvious gut reaction is that it is the same problem, but if done well and with specific resources and one to one focus I think this could be a clever idea.

    Bottom 10% is SEND I think and I'd imagine takes up rather more than 10% of the school budget.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,848

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree on the first part (off-chance Hunt makes the first round?) but where their supporters go may be trickier to guess.

    More will head to Sunak than Mordaunt would like I think.
    Of the 3 front runners I think she's in the weakest position once we're into the contest proper.
    That's my least confident prediction though
    Yes, it will be Sunak vs Truss for the members and the members will choose Truss because the majority of Tory members have a couple of screws loose up here (caused by old age or otherwise)!
    Truss will be seen as "continuity Boris" with the endorsements she is supposedly getting today.

    The same grubby Cabinet rallying round her. Not what is needed.
    Yes, it could hinder her as much as help.

    That said Mordaunt is probably a tad too short at present.
    Punters are perhaps making the mistake of thinking that Tory members will go for the best choice?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,848

    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    In fact to gain an insight into the leadership election it is vital to read all the Continuity Boris threads on social media.

    Ain't no way the rump Cons members are voting in anyone vaguely sane and I don't think there will be enough of the likes of @TSE rejoining in time to vote.

    Bet accordingly.

    The chat on ConHome about Badenoch is absurd and all appears to stem from a single speech about critical race theory. The members seem too old and detached from the real world to appreciate that they are choosing someone to deal with the economy and world affairs.
    Putting this to the members will end in tears I predict.
    I still think it may not happen, or that the MPs will make sure that the loony choices are kept out of the final two. But with the turnover of MPs during the Johnson era there may be too many loonies inside Parliament now to make this possible?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,734
    kjh said:

    As per normal, because of my poor English I have to correct a misunderstanding of one of my posts yesterday. I seem to need to do this every day. I'm blaming using a phone to post and nothing to do with my incompetence. Sorry for the delay in responding but I'm only just back.

    So @dixiedean I wasn't suggesting Comprehensives don't stream. I agree with you and I don't know any that don't. My point was that because they stream and set classes they provide the same benefits of grammars except it is ongoing and not some crude cut off at 11 which also doesn't allow for kids who might be bright in some subjects and rubbish in others and also doesn't allow for kids who might be late starters or who have peaked early.

    My experience of this in the early 60s was traumatic and although this wouldn't happen today to this extent, I was excluded from languages and literature and had to do completely inappropriate subjects (practical ones for which I had no talent) because I was a late academic starter (although my maths ability was always there, but as an awkward youngster it wasn't spotted eg I refused to learn times tables as I thought it pointless). My failure to learn a language is something I have always regretted.

    @Sandpit you came up with a very interesting idea about doing grammars in reverse. That is selecting the bottom 10%. I find this very interesting. An obvious gut reaction is that it is the same problem, but if done well and with specific resources and one to one focus I think this could be a clever idea.

    The major attraction to parents of grammars is that the nasty and disruptive kids - either those who will male lessons unmanageable or those who will make your kids' lives a misery - tend to be elsewhere.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,726

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:


    Essentially these warehouses are sitting ducks because the Russians don't have the capability to disperse them.

    We are now at the stage where Russia seems to have shot its bolt and to have little meaningful in reserve while the Ukrainians will be receiving more equipment. Partisan activity also seems to be stepping up.

    Give it 6-8 weeks and Russia is going to be in serious trouble.

    Nigelb said:

    That looks like quite a big dump.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1546712454117240832
    Compilation of the clips showing the explosion of the ammunition warehouse in Nova Kakhovka.

    Russia's way of conducting war - shell, demolish, advance - only works when it has the advantage of range.

    Robbed of that, they are stuffed.

    Plus, Ukraine will have very precise details of the locations of these warehouses - both from satellite images but also a huge network of partisans.

    Russia needs a serious rethink. Preferably from within its own borders.

    I see Oryx has confirmed Russian tank losses at 865. Russian tank crews in Ukraine must now have significantly lower life expectancies than even WW2 U-boat crews.
    So, in my humble opinion the UK is currently making the same mistake as Russia in this war. Failing to see a step ahead and acting proactively to counter the threat.

    As Russia’s fortunes on the battlefield go down the toilet, we will be passing through autumn. Conceivably we might see the Crimea Bridge destroyed in that time frame.

    What does Putin have left at that point? The natural gas weapon. European gas exports are just 3-4% of total Russian exports and in the medium term Europe are openly saying they’ll stop buying anyway. It’s a very low cost card for Putin to play, at a time his own position will be very weak indeed.

    As best I can tell, the UK’s plan is: turn off the gas interconnector to Europe. Which fails to acknowledge that Norway could well respond to that by diverting a large part of our supply to mainland Europe directly.

    We should be preparing for this winter with a state of emergency equivalent to building spitfires in ‘39-40. Instead we have a bunch of preening peacocks spending the whole summer coming up with ever more ridiculous tax cut boasts rather than consolidating around one candidate and doing everything possible to prepare for what might be a severe national crisis this winter.

    What actions would you be taking at the moment in this 'state of emergency' ?
    At a minimum money and resource should be thrown at every non-gas generating source to ensure availability rates are as high as possible this winter. Both in terms of plant readiness and where applicable stores of raw material input.

    Secondly it may just be possible in that timeframe to ensure some of the biomass generators can be requipped for coal.

    Thirdly we should be signing term contracts for LNG supply underwritten by the UK government.

    Fourthly, a state procurement exercise for fallback power sources (I.E. generators and batteries) for key services. Hospitals should already be covered but I am specifically thinking of schools and water supply. Where applicable combine with solar.

    Fifthly, correcting some of the policy wrongs of the past, including removal of Vat for solar pv/battery storage.

    Provide winter resilience for the several million properties that are off the gas grid and require power to operate oil fired boilers. Gas camp stoves with gas bottles for boiling water and food prep is a good start. Hot water bottles in an unheated house could conceivably save lives this winter.

    And then there’s demand. Take off the shackles with a national building insulation programme. And draw up an industrial prioritisation list for nat gas (and power) in case rationing is required.

    I’m not an expert, I’m sure I’ve missed plenty.
    We still have a few operational coal power stations. Importing a load of coal so they can be run flat out through the winter seems like a sensible precaution. We can then sit on the coal as an emergency reserve, AND supply all the steam railways who are in their own crisis.
    As an aside: steam railways often use a different type of coal from that required for power stations - or at least to run at their best they do. Good, hard anthracite - e.g. Welsh steam coal - is brilliant. Power stations can be made to run on any old tat - witness Germany and its brown coal. That stuff would soon knacker our steam locos.
    I am standing by for a Tory leadership contender to announce a return to steam traction on our railways. It would be so on-brand.
    If they don't get a grip, we'll be sending mail by horse and coach.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    MrEd said:


    Essentially these warehouses are sitting ducks because the Russians don't have the capability to disperse them...

    I think it's more that they have an institutional aversion to dispersing supply trains - though clearly changing that under the stresses of war would be a very difficult undertaking.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,959
    Nigelb said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree on the first part (off-chance Hunt makes the first round?) but where their supporters go may be trickier to guess.

    More will head to Sunak than Mordaunt would like I think.
    Of the 3 front runners I think she's in the weakest position once we're into the contest proper.
    That's my least confident prediction though
    Yes, it will be Sunak vs Truss for the members and the members will choose Truss because the majority of Tory members have a couple of screws loose up here (caused by old age or otherwise)!
    My wife and I are old, and have some lose screws but fortunately many of them are very secure and I would suggest the saying you 'cannot put old heads on young shoulders' is quite succinct
    As is 'the fish rots from the head down'.
    I think there will be a strong desire to avoid one of Johnson's cabinet as next leader. Sunak is a possible exception to that, given his resignation, but Truss certainly isn't.
    I hope you are right as Mordaunt or Sunak are my choice
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933

    TOPPING said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree on the first part (off-chance Hunt makes the first round?) but where their supporters go may be trickier to guess.

    More will head to Sunak than Mordaunt would like I think.
    Of the 3 front runners I think she's in the weakest position once we're into the contest proper.
    That's my least confident prediction though
    Yes, it will be Sunak vs Truss for the members and the members will choose Truss because the majority of Tory members have a couple of screws loose up here (caused by old age or otherwise)!
    Truss will be seen as "continuity Boris" with the endorsements she is supposedly getting today.

    The same grubby Cabinet rallying round her. Not what is needed.
    Yes, it could hinder her as much as help.

    That said Mordaunt is probably a tad too short at present.
    In the era of big personalities Mordaunt holds her own and outshines many if not every other candidate.

    The question is will the Tory members see sense and choose Sunak who it could be argued is the safe pair of hands.

    Reading FB comments from Continuity Boris Tories (we woz robbed, etc) the answer is emphatically no.
    Sunak could conceivably beat Mordaunt in the members vote if the Wokery is huge round her neck, and he counters it.
    "...the Wokery is huge round her neck"
    Is that a typo, or a particularly vivid phrase ?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    MikeL said:

    It looks like Sunak, Mordaunt or Truss.

    I'm quite sure that Mordaunt has the best chance of winning the next GE.

    Sunak would do a solid job and probably get a Hung Parliament.

    Truss will be a disaster electorally. If she does win, I think there is a serious chance that she gets deposed before the next GE. If the Conservatives are in a worse position in 12 months time I think there's every chance the MPs throw her out - especially if if it's clear she was only the MPs 2nd choice in the first place (which is likely to be the case). There would still then be plenty of time for a successor to take over pre GE.

    The debate so far seems to focus on who is best placed to score cheap points off Labour.

    That is a mistake in my opinion.

    From my perspective the Tories need to find someone who can knock the Tory party into shape, get the support of (or dominate) the right and then put together a coherent and sound plan and withstand the uncommon storm.

    If you frame the problem like that then inexperienced back benchers, with little achievement behind them look risky. Sunak also looks risky, because the right will not wear it. Truss looks more attractive.
    I agree with your diagnosis but not with your solution. I think the only way the Tories stand any chance of rebuilding a right of centre consensus is by choosing someone who is not intimately associated with Johnson.

    To my mind that excludes any of the former or current holders of senior cabinet positions (The Great offices of State) Truss, Sunak, Patel and probably Zahawi are all tainted. Less prominent cabinet members should be able to distance themselves from the stigma as would back benchers.

    Also ignore Brexit as a dominant or even prominent issue in its own right. Stop the ideology and concentrate on the practical.
    I really can't get over the fact that the next couple of years will be brutal and will severely test a new leader. As soon as things get a bit tricky the sharks will circle. The new leader will also have to deal with that. It's not just about attacking Labour.

    Johnson has shown that he can and will bring down a leader. Sunak is clearly in the cross hairs, he also owns much of the current crisis and with a FPN is hardly a fresh start. Picking him is a bad move.

    A backbench/inexperienced leader will take two years to get up to speed. In the meantime they will be at the mercy of advisers and eviscerated by disgruntled big beasts. So don't pick Badenoch or Tugendhat. Mourdant probably also fits here. They are your new cabinet.

    So who is left? Who can assert leadership, master a grumpy party and set a direction that will see the Tories through the storm?


    Who knows. We rarely get the metal of a politician before they are given power. The obvious exceptions are the ones who should never be allowed near power - Johnson, Trump, Patel, Raab etc. But for the rest you really can't say who will up their game until they are actually in the hot seat.

    But in one way it doesn't matter. I am not interested in who will be the best person to win the next election. I am interested in who will be the best person to deal with the crisis of the next 2 years and do the right things even if it costs them the next election.
    For me, Trump and bojo have killed game-upping theory.I can't think of anyone since Major who has arguably surprised on the up side and that is because he was a genuine unknown.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    I'm a bit out of the loop these days - whatever happen to boundary changes? Did they happen and if so what impact will they have?

    Does incumbency factor no longer count I take it?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:


    Essentially these warehouses are sitting ducks because the Russians don't have the capability to disperse them.

    We are now at the stage where Russia seems to have shot its bolt and to have little meaningful in reserve while the Ukrainians will be receiving more equipment. Partisan activity also seems to be stepping up.

    Give it 6-8 weeks and Russia is going to be in serious trouble.

    Nigelb said:

    That looks like quite a big dump.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1546712454117240832
    Compilation of the clips showing the explosion of the ammunition warehouse in Nova Kakhovka.

    Russia's way of conducting war - shell, demolish, advance - only works when it has the advantage of range.

    Robbed of that, they are stuffed.

    Plus, Ukraine will have very precise details of the locations of these warehouses - both from satellite images but also a huge network of partisans.

    Russia needs a serious rethink. Preferably from within its own borders.

    I see Oryx has confirmed Russian tank losses at 865. Russian tank crews in Ukraine must now have significantly lower life expectancies than even WW2 U-boat crews.
    So, in my humble opinion the UK is currently making the same mistake as Russia in this war. Failing to see a step ahead and acting proactively to counter the threat.

    As Russia’s fortunes on the battlefield go down the toilet, we will be passing through autumn. Conceivably we might see the Crimea Bridge destroyed in that time frame.

    What does Putin have left at that point? The natural gas weapon. European gas exports are just 3-4% of total Russian exports and in the medium term Europe are openly saying they’ll stop buying anyway. It’s a very low cost card for Putin to play, at a time his own position will be very weak indeed.

    As best I can tell, the UK’s plan is: turn off the gas interconnector to Europe. Which fails to acknowledge that Norway could well respond to that by diverting a large part of our supply to mainland Europe directly.

    We should be preparing for this winter with a state of emergency equivalent to building spitfires in ‘39-40. Instead we have a bunch of preening peacocks spending the whole summer coming up with ever more ridiculous tax cut boasts rather than consolidating around one candidate and doing everything possible to prepare for what might be a severe national crisis this winter.

    What actions would you be taking at the moment in this 'state of emergency' ?
    At a minimum money and resource should be thrown at every non-gas generating source to ensure availability rates are as high as possible this winter. Both in terms of plant readiness and where applicable stores of raw material input.

    Secondly it may just be possible in that timeframe to ensure some of the biomass generators can be requipped for coal.

    Thirdly we should be signing term contracts for LNG supply underwritten by the UK government.

    Fourthly, a state procurement exercise for fallback power sources (I.E. generators and batteries) for key services. Hospitals should already be covered but I am specifically thinking of schools and water supply. Where applicable combine with solar.

    Fifthly, correcting some of the policy wrongs of the past, including removal of Vat for solar pv/battery storage.

    Provide winter resilience for the several million properties that are off the gas grid and require power to operate oil fired boilers. Gas camp stoves with gas bottles for boiling water and food prep is a good start. Hot water bottles in an unheated house could conceivably save lives this winter.

    And then there’s demand. Take off the shackles with a national building insulation programme. And draw up an industrial prioritisation list for nat gas (and power) in case rationing is required.

    I’m not an expert, I’m sure I’ve missed plenty.
    That's an interesting list, thanks. But remember we are talking about problems that are six months away. That isn't a great deal of time.

    For point 1:, we may already well be throwing resources at every non-gas generating source - it's just not sexy, so it doesn't get reported on. For instance, bringing forwards maintenance on our nukes to this summer, or ensuring the biomass stores at Drax are full.

    For point 2:, where do we source the coal? If we are getting it from abroad, do we still have the trains required to take it from port to power station (coal traffic has virtually disappeared over the last twenty years, and the wagon stocks massively reduced). How easily can the biomass stations be reequipped for coal?

    For point 3: this does seem rather like bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted. The time for such contracts was before the current crisis, not during it.

    For point 5: will do sod-all for this winter as we
    will not be able to get enough new solar pv or
    batteries installed before winter.

    Ditto an insulation program: that's far too long
    term for the immediate crisis.

    My main thinking about these is that whilst they're
    good, the government could be doing them and
    they're not getting reported as they've 'boring'. Or they could be doing nothing...
    That this is a hard problem to counter and that it will be imperfectly met even with total focus does not mean we should not be trying.

    As for assuming the government is quietly doing some of these things but not telling us. If that helps you sleep soundly at night so be it.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Vlad has Scholz by his storage facilities

    Constanze Stelzenmüller
    @ConStelz
    “Viele von uns waren ja völlig überrascht, als sie erfahren haben, dass nicht nur die Pipelines, sondern auch die Speicher im Besitz Russlands sind. Mir war das ebenfalls nicht klar. Einem Nationalen Sicherheitsrat wäre so etwas aufgefallen” (C. Heusgen)
    😳

    “Many of us were completely surprised when they found out that not only the pipelines but also the storage facilities are owned by Russia. I didn't realize that either. A National Security Council would have noticed something like that” (C. Heusgen)
    😳

    https://www.zeit.de/2022/27/angela-merkel-aussenpolitik-russland-wladimir-putin
    https://twitter.com/ConStelz/status/1546494563333840897

    Putin has played Germany like Jimi Hendrix played a Stratocaster
    I'm not sure that's quite accurate.
    https://ultimateclassicrock.com/jimi-hendrix-guitar-fire/
    Er, that is the precise example of Hendrixian Axemaster Generalship to which I was referring
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485
    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Labour preparing a no confidence vote tomorrow

    I don't get this strategy. Will unify the Tories.
    Partly, it was a bullet they fired hoping it would push the Tories into evicting the liar clown pronto, which didn't work and they are now stuck with.

    Partly, the intention is to get every Tory MP's fingerprints - including the future leader and cabinet - on the decision to keep the liar clown in office through the summer. For Labour a lot rests on trying to spread the muck from the Johnson era over the lot of them, rather than allowing them another fake fresh start.
    It's a no lose policy for Labour

    Anyone voting for Bozo to remain can be blamed for Bozo being there. And there are a whole pile of things Bozo can no longer do because he can't do anything that has financial consequences due to the fact he isn't really in power anymore.

    Then there is the possibility that Labour know something embarrassing is going to appear - like more details regarding his visit to see Evgeny Lebedev when Foreign Secretary.

    So every Tory MP voting to keep Bozo in power is voting on the hope that nothing embarrassing is going to occur in the next 7 weeks.

    I'd rather Boris were out of power and out of Downing Street. But handing over to his successor is the way we change leaders in this country.

    Playing student politics whilst his replacement is actively being voted for just looks like a desperate bit of attention seeking.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,842

    TOPPING said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree on the first part (off-chance Hunt makes the first round?) but where their supporters go may be trickier to guess.

    More will head to Sunak than Mordaunt would like I think.
    Of the 3 front runners I think she's in the weakest position once we're into the contest proper.
    That's my least confident prediction though
    Yes, it will be Sunak vs Truss for the members and the members will choose Truss because the majority of Tory members have a couple of screws loose up here (caused by old age or otherwise)!
    Truss will be seen as "continuity Boris" with the endorsements she is supposedly getting today.

    The same grubby Cabinet rallying round her. Not what is needed.
    Yes, it could hinder her as much as help.

    That said Mordaunt is probably a tad too short at present.
    In the era of big personalities Mordaunt holds her own and outshines many if not every other candidate.

    The question is will the Tory members see sense and choose Sunak who it could be argued is the safe pair of hands.

    Reading FB comments from Continuity Boris Tories (we woz robbed, etc) the answer is emphatically no.
    Sunak could conceivably beat Mordaunt in the members vote if the Wokery is huge round her neck, and he counters it.
    Still don't see it plus I'm not sure he'd go there.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Retail sales fall at fastest rate since lockdown

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62121262

    Perfect storm
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    In fact to gain an insight into the leadership election it is vital to read all the Continuity Boris threads on social media.

    Ain't no way the rump Cons members are voting in anyone vaguely sane and I don't think there will be enough of the likes of @TSE rejoining in time to vote.

    Bet accordingly.

    The chat on ConHome about Badenoch is absurd and all appears to stem from a single speech about critical race theory. The members seem too old and detached from the real world to appreciate that they are choosing someone to deal with the economy and world affairs.
    Putting this to the members will end in tears I predict.
    I still think it may not happen, or that the MPs will make sure that the loony choices are kept out of
    the final two. But with the turnover of MPs during
    the Johnson era there may be too many loonies inside Parliament now to make this possible?

    I thought this too but didn’t Steve Baker say that if the second place dropped out then the third place would be put to members instead?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,280

    I'm a bit out of the loop these days - whatever happen to boundary changes? Did they happen and if so what impact will they have?

    Does incumbency factor no longer count I take it?

    Still in progress - due to be implemented October 2023..

    So any election before then is on current boundaries, anything after on the new ones.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,754
    Cookie said:

    kjh said:

    As per normal, because of my poor English I have to correct a misunderstanding of one of my posts yesterday. I seem to need to do this every day. I'm blaming using a phone to post and nothing to do with my incompetence. Sorry for the delay in responding but I'm only just back.

    So @dixiedean I wasn't suggesting Comprehensives don't stream. I agree with you and I don't know any that don't. My point was that because they stream and set classes they provide the same benefits of grammars except it is ongoing and not some crude cut off at 11 which also doesn't allow for kids who might be bright in some subjects and rubbish in others and also doesn't allow for kids who might be late starters or who have peaked early.

    My experience of this in the early 60s was traumatic and although this wouldn't happen today to this extent, I was excluded from languages and literature and had to do completely inappropriate subjects (practical ones for which I had no talent) because I was a late academic starter (although my maths ability was always there, but as an awkward youngster it wasn't spotted eg I refused to learn times tables as I thought it pointless). My failure to learn a language is something I have always regretted.

    @Sandpit you came up with a very interesting idea about doing grammars in reverse. That is selecting the bottom 10%. I find this very interesting. An obvious gut reaction is that it is the same problem, but if done well and with specific resources and one to one focus I think this could be a clever idea.

    The major attraction to parents of grammars is that the nasty and disruptive kids - either those who will male lessons unmanageable or those who will make your kids' lives a misery - tend to be elsewhere.
    Also a lot of people just look at the exam results and don't adjust them for quality of intake.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,606

    Nigelb said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree on the first part (off-chance Hunt makes the first round?) but where their supporters go may be trickier to guess.

    More will head to Sunak than Mordaunt would like I think.
    Of the 3 front runners I think she's in the weakest position once we're into the contest proper.
    That's my least confident prediction though
    Yes, it will be Sunak vs Truss for the members and the members will choose Truss because the majority of Tory members have a couple of screws loose up here (caused by old age or otherwise)!
    My wife and I are old, and have some lose screws but fortunately many of them are very secure and I would suggest the saying you 'cannot put old heads on young shoulders' is quite succinct
    As is 'the fish rots from the head down'.
    I think there will be a strong desire to avoid one of Johnson's cabinet as next leader. Sunak is a possible exception to that, given his resignation, but Truss certainly isn't.
    I hope you are right as Mordaunt or Sunak are my choice
    How did you get over Sunak's FPN? You were quite adamant that Starmer should resign if he got one.
  • Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree on the first part (off-chance Hunt makes the first round?) but where their supporters go may be trickier to guess.

    More will head to Sunak than Mordaunt would like I think.
    Of the 3 front runners I think she's in the weakest position once we're into the contest proper.
    That's my least confident prediction though
    Yes, it will be Sunak vs Truss for the members and the members will choose Truss because the majority of Tory members have a couple of screws loose up here (caused by old age or otherwise)!
    Truss will be seen as "continuity Boris" with the endorsements she is supposedly getting today.

    The same grubby Cabinet rallying round her. Not what is needed.
    Yes, it could hinder her as much as help.

    That said Mordaunt is probably a tad too short at present.
    In the era of big personalities Mordaunt holds her own and outshines many if not every other candidate.

    The question is will the Tory members see sense and choose Sunak who it could be argued is the safe pair of hands.

    Reading FB comments from Continuity Boris Tories (we woz robbed, etc) the answer is emphatically no.
    Sunak could conceivably beat Mordaunt in the members vote if the Wokery is huge round her neck, and he counters it.
    "...the Wokery is huge round her neck"
    Is that a typo, or a particularly vivid phrase ?
    I thought maybe it was the brand of jewelry favoured by Theresa May.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,475
    Pulpstar said:

    kjh said:

    As per normal, because of my poor English I have to correct a misunderstanding of one of my posts yesterday. I seem to need to do this every day. I'm blaming using a phone to post and nothing to do with my incompetence. Sorry for the delay in responding but I'm only just back.

    So @dixiedean I wasn't suggesting Comprehensives don't stream. I agree with you and I don't know any that don't. My point was that because they stream and set classes they provide the same benefits of grammars except it is ongoing and not some crude cut off at 11 which also doesn't allow for kids who might be bright in some subjects and rubbish in others and also doesn't allow for kids who might be late starters or who have peaked early.

    My experience of this in the early 60s was traumatic and although this wouldn't happen today to this extent, I was excluded from languages and literature and had to do completely inappropriate subjects (practical ones for which I had no talent) because I was a late academic starter (although my maths ability was always there, but as an awkward youngster it wasn't spotted eg I refused to learn times tables as I thought it pointless). My failure to learn a language is something I have always regretted.

    @Sandpit you came up with a very interesting idea about doing grammars in reverse. That is selecting the bottom 10%. I find this very interesting. An obvious gut reaction is that it is the same problem, but if done well and with specific resources and one to one focus I think this could be a clever idea.

    Bottom 10% is SEND I think and I'd imagine takes up rather more than 10% of the school budget.
    One of my son's friends is special needs, and is currently taught in a class of two. Next autumn she starts at a school in Cambridge where she will be in a slightly larger class - and will be getting a taxi to and from it each day, at council expense. She's a lovely lass, but is having trouble learning.

    I'm unsure the special needs kids are the main problem. The main problem are the kids who are bright enough to do the work, but for whatever reason - lack of encouragement, disruptive home lives, enjoying footie with friends - don't bother to learn at school and are disruptive. Kids who cannot see the point of school and who bunk off at every opportunity. We need to turn them around.

    But how, given their issues are often social or at home?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree on the first part (off-chance Hunt makes the first round?) but where their supporters go may be trickier to guess.

    More will head to Sunak than Mordaunt would like I think.
    Of the 3 front runners I think she's in the weakest position once we're into the contest proper.
    That's my least confident prediction though
    Yes, it will be Sunak vs Truss for the members and the members will choose Truss because the majority of Tory members have a couple of screws loose up here (caused by old age or otherwise)!
    Truss will be seen as "continuity Boris" with the endorsements she is supposedly getting today.

    The same grubby Cabinet rallying round her. Not what is needed.
    Yes, it could hinder her as much as help.

    That said Mordaunt is probably a tad too short at present.
    In the era of big personalities Mordaunt holds her own and outshines many if not every other candidate.

    The question is will the Tory members see sense and choose Sunak who it could be argued is the safe pair of hands.

    Reading FB comments from Continuity Boris Tories (we woz robbed, etc) the answer is emphatically no.
    Sunak could conceivably beat Mordaunt in the members vote if the Wokery is huge round her neck, and he counters it.
    "...the Wokery is huge round her neck"
    Is that a typo, or a particularly vivid phrase ?
    I thought maybe it was the brand of jewelry favoured by Theresa May.
    BEHOLD THE TORC OF WOKERY
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280
    One thought on the VoNC.

    It is the kind of division that gets more or less full turnout. It will be apparent who is missing.

    Do the Tory whips call in their rape accusee to protect their identity, or does that identity become obvious to anyone who cares to cross check?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,959
    Just a warning in this hot weather

    My son and his colleagues were called to rescue two kayakers last night who had fallen out of their kayaks and been in the water for 40 minutes

    It was a successful shout but they expect a lot more shouts over the next few weeks
  • Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    darkage said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Telegraph reporting that Boris held a Cobra meeting in Number 10 over the impending heatwave. 40C is still possible next weekend/Monday

    He held COBRA over a heatwave?
    A similar heatwave in France a few years ago killed thousands of vulnerable people, esp the old in non air conditioned dwellings

    So it’s very sensible. We’re not equipped for this heat

    Hopefully the French have sorted out their game, because they could break records there as well - potentially going over 45C
    Absolutely baking in Spain currently. Returning to the UK heatwave will be something of a relief! The Spanish are used to high temperatures, of course, but not this high. More worrying is the long-term decline in rainfall levels. That will make significant parts of the country uninhabitable. It’s been pretty dry in much of England this year, too.

    If this continues, inland Spain and Greece, and possibly southwest France and Sicily/S Italy, will empty out

    We will start to see population movements within Europe, not just migrants from outside

    It’s beginning to impinge personally. I’m possibly going to buy property abroad. For the first time I’m thinking: wait, what if it gets too hot?

    I know friends who are now hesitating about booking two weeks in the Med in August. Because two weeks of 35-40C is not a holiday

    There are few places taken in the round so pleasant to live than the UK. Provided you have a few quid of course, which is true in most places but especially so here.

    Yes, mild climate; 8 months of good weather if you live on the south coast. Plus, seasonal variety.
    Eight months of good weather?! Lol

    Chacun a son gout I guess

    And that “seasonal variety” also means 3 months of dark cold grimness. And no climate change is going to make British winters less dark
    I never realised how good the weather is in the south east of the UK until I spent large amounts of time in scandinavia. Their season of good weather is less than half of what we get in the UK. Then they have 8 months of miserable weather. Cold, wind, rain, ice, snow (occasionally beautiful but mostly hazardous when combined with rain), so you can't go out without massive weather protection on, and massive boots, sometimes with spikes.

    There are some things that are better there, like fantastic swimming pools, and it feels a lot less crowded with clean air.

    But it really hit home when a friend bought a new bike back in April. I kept asking him how it was and he said he wouldn't be able to try it out for months because of all the gravel on the roads, it would just shred the tyres and damage the bike if he went out.

    This is not to mention the massive heating bills, and high rates of illness; people are regularly off work for weeks.

    We are really lucky in this country.
    Temperatures in southern England are pleasant, I agree. Especially as the overall climate warms up

    But it is too grey and wet for me, and way too dark in the winter

    I crave sunshine. It really affects my mood. I’ve spent the last 3 months in almost perpetual sunshine (because in part I’ve been able to choose where to go, in and around assignments); it has had, I believe, a notable positive influence on my mood (tho one can never be sure)
    We are all subject to hedonic adaptation.
    Even when you arrive at a perfect situation, something will creep in to make you miserable.
    That’s very true

    I’ve also considered the possibility that I’m in a highly benign mood because I’m constantly moving. Whenever I get bored or sullen I go to the next country. Works a treat

    Maybe I simply have a gypsy heart and a hunter gathering soul. Maybe I should wander the earth for the rest of time. Like the proverbial Jew
    You are mundivagant
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    As someone who is involved in campaigns I am always appalled by crass statements that come out of Government departments when an alleged wrongdoing is published. The statement is normally pointless, not focused on the issue at hand and makes matters worse. I have experienced this so many times with the campaigns I have been involved in. I am sure people like @ydoethur experiences the same when he raises issues and sees the crass replies in response.

    The one from the MOD to the alleged SAS activity this morning is appalling. The response is:

    'British forces served with courage and professionalism in Afghanistan'

    I doubt anyone thinks that is generally untrue but what the hell has it got to do with the allegations this morning. It is crass, it is insensitive and is a reaction without any (further) investigation so also looks very defensive.

    That statement is not a reply to the claims being made. By all means say it, but with a bit more added eg we are not aware..., we will investigate these appalling allegations..., etc, etc.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    And yet, 42% of us did not vote for the Far Right candidate as our supreme leader. Unlike France. Funny, that
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Pro_Rata said:

    One thought on the VoNC.

    It is the kind of division that gets more or less full turnout. It will be apparent who is missing.

    Do the Tory whips call in their rape accusee to protect their identity, or does that identity become obvious to anyone who cares to cross check?

    That's a bit uninteresting isn't it? Kind of subsumed into the general Pincherism. And so boring, I used to know who it was but I've forgotten.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,899
    Leon said:

    Vlad has Scholz by his storage facilities

    Constanze Stelzenmüller
    @ConStelz
    “Viele von uns waren ja völlig überrascht, als sie erfahren haben, dass nicht nur die Pipelines, sondern auch die Speicher im Besitz Russlands sind. Mir war das ebenfalls nicht klar. Einem Nationalen Sicherheitsrat wäre so etwas aufgefallen” (C. Heusgen)
    😳

    “Many of us were completely surprised when they found out that not only the pipelines but also the storage facilities are owned by Russia. I didn't realize that either. A National Security Council would have noticed something like that” (C. Heusgen)
    😳

    https://www.zeit.de/2022/27/angela-merkel-aussenpolitik-russland-wladimir-putin
    https://twitter.com/ConStelz/status/1546494563333840897

    Putin has played Germany like Jimi Hendrix played a Stratocaster
    It is the biggest strategic mistake in Europe for decades. It wasn't even a vague threat, people warned that in a crisis Russia would use gas for leverage, exactly that has happened. Even the odious Trump could see it, and went off message from his usual Putin-love to warn about it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,959
    Jonathan said:

    Nigelb said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree on the first part (off-chance Hunt makes the first round?) but where their supporters go may be trickier to guess.

    More will head to Sunak than Mordaunt would like I think.
    Of the 3 front runners I think she's in the weakest position once we're into the contest proper.
    That's my least confident prediction though
    Yes, it will be Sunak vs Truss for the members and the members will choose Truss because the majority of Tory members have a couple of screws loose up here (caused by old age or otherwise)!
    My wife and I are old, and have some lose screws but fortunately many of them are very secure and I would suggest the saying you 'cannot put old heads on young shoulders' is quite succinct
    As is 'the fish rots from the head down'.
    I think there will be a strong desire to avoid one of Johnson's cabinet as next leader. Sunak is a possible exception to that, given his resignation, but Truss certainly isn't.
    I hope you are right as Mordaunt or Sunak are my choice
    How did you get over Sunak's FPN? You were quite adamant that Starmer should resign if he got one.
    When did I ever say Starmer should resign over his FPN - it was Starmer who made that undertaking

    The whole business of the covid regulations were idiotic as were the fines and fortunately they are not likely to be introduced in the future
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,278
    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:


    Essentially these warehouses are sitting ducks because the Russians don't have the capability to disperse them.

    We are now at the stage where Russia seems to have shot its bolt and to have little meaningful in reserve while the Ukrainians will be receiving more equipment. Partisan activity also seems to be stepping up.

    Give it 6-8 weeks and Russia is going to be in serious trouble.

    Nigelb said:

    That looks like quite a big dump.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1546712454117240832
    Compilation of the clips showing the explosion of the ammunition warehouse in Nova Kakhovka.

    Russia's way of conducting war - shell, demolish, advance - only works when it has the advantage of range.

    Robbed of that, they are stuffed.

    Plus, Ukraine will have very precise details of the locations of these warehouses - both from satellite images but also a huge network of partisans.

    Russia needs a serious rethink. Preferably from within its own borders.

    I see Oryx has confirmed Russian tank losses at 865. Russian tank crews in Ukraine must now have significantly lower life expectancies than even WW2 U-boat crews.
    So, in my humble opinion the UK is currently making the same mistake as Russia in this war. Failing to see a step ahead and acting proactively to counter the threat.

    As Russia’s fortunes on the battlefield go down the toilet, we will be passing through autumn. Conceivably we might see the Crimea Bridge destroyed in that time frame.

    What does Putin have left at that point? The natural gas weapon. European gas exports are just 3-4% of total Russian exports and in the medium term Europe are openly saying they’ll stop buying anyway. It’s a very low cost card for Putin to play, at a time his own position will be very weak indeed.

    As best I can tell, the UK’s plan is: turn off the gas interconnector to Europe. Which fails to acknowledge that Norway could well respond to that by diverting a large part of our supply to mainland Europe directly.

    We should be preparing for this winter with a state of emergency equivalent to building spitfires in ‘39-40. Instead we have a bunch of preening peacocks spending the whole summer coming up with ever more ridiculous tax cut boasts rather than consolidating around one candidate and doing everything possible to prepare for what might be a severe national crisis this winter.
    British intelligence was pretty confident the invasion was coming before February 24th. By the time December starts we will have had ten months to make emergency preparations.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    .
    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. 1000, if gas is critical for Germany then you would have thought they would at least own their storage facilities.

    On the plus side, the UK's no longer the most incompetent European nation when it comes to gas storage.

    Germany has a lot more gas storage than the UK: 23 billion cubic meters vs (ah hem...) about 300 million cubic meters.

    And the facilities are around 60% full. Germany is fine for gas until about February (assuming that Norwegian and North African pipeline flows to Europe are unaffected),.

    Now, the Germans - if they were wise - would recognise that their best outcome is for Russia to be defeated quickly. So that they can avoid a situation where they run out of gas in the dead of winter. But they're like a deer in the headlights. They've done some smart things, like bringing mothballed coal capacity back on line. But they're also doing some very dumb thing, in particular continuing with the shutdown of three nuclear plants this year.
    I did wonder about how technically feasible it would be to get those back online quickly. I know nothing about shutting down nuclear plants, but imagine it's neither a simple nor an easily reversible process.

    Anyone ?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,243
    I was watching some videos of Kemi on YouTube at 1am last night (as you do) - She's really rather good isn't she?

    Penny V Kemi would be a good choice for the membership I think.

    Good morning PB.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,407
    kjh said:

    As someone who is involved in campaigns I am always appalled by crass statements that come out of Government departments when an alleged wrongdoing is published. The statement is normally pointless, not focused on the issue at hand and makes matters worse. I have experienced this so many times with the campaigns I have been involved in. I am sure people like @ydoethur experiences the same when he raises issues and sees the crass replies in response.

    The one from the MOD to the alleged SAS activity this morning is appalling. The response is:

    'British forces served with courage and professionalism in Afghanistan'

    I doubt anyone thinks that is generally untrue but what the hell has it got to do with the allegations this morning. It is crass, it is insensitive and is a reaction without any (further) investigation so also looks very defensive.

    That statement is not a reply to the claims being made. By all means say it, but with a bit more added eg we are not aware..., we will investigate these appalling allegations..., etc, etc.

    It is neither crass nor insensitive and moreover you are misquoting. What you quote is part of a much larger rebuttal including the fact there have been formal investigations into the claims which were found to be groundless. The MOD has very strongly contested the BBC claims and made it clear they are not factually accurate.

    But you carry on with your selective quoting if it makes you feel better
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,955
    Rishi Sunak is currently the Conservative members’ preferred option to succeed Boris Johnson, according to the latest Opinium & @Channel4News.

    He would currently beat Liz Truss or Penny Mordaunt in the final members ballot, although over a fifth have yet to make their mind up. https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1546763932391669765/photo/1
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,754

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280
    IshmaelZ said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    One thought on the VoNC.

    It is the kind of division that gets more or less full turnout. It will be apparent who is missing.

    Do the Tory whips call in their rape accusee to protect their identity, or does that identity become obvious to anyone who cares to cross check?

    That's a bit uninteresting isn't it? Kind of subsumed into the general Pincherism. And so boring, I used to know who it was but I've forgotten.
    So, already known but under the radar -> still already known but under the radar. OK. I do remember some speculation, but can't remember what the upshot was (no answers please, purely rhetorical thought).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kjh said:

    As someone who is involved in campaigns I am always appalled by crass statements that come out of Government departments when an alleged wrongdoing is published. The statement is normally pointless, not focused on the issue at hand and makes matters worse. I have experienced this so many times with the campaigns I have been involved in. I am sure people like @ydoethur experiences the same when he raises issues and sees the crass replies in response.

    The one from the MOD to the alleged SAS activity this morning is appalling. The response is:

    'British forces served with courage and professionalism in Afghanistan'

    I doubt anyone thinks that is generally untrue but what the hell has it got to do with the allegations this morning. It is crass, it is insensitive and is a reaction without any (further) investigation so also looks very defensive.

    That statement is not a reply to the claims being made. By all means say it, but with a bit more added eg we are not aware..., we will investigate these appalling allegations..., etc, etc.

    All looks a bit thin. the BBC's main point is the suspicious recurrence of He grabbed a grenade/He grabbed a rifle stories, but what variations on those themes do they expect if you raid armed hostiles late at night? I mean, I am sure DA would confirm the credibility of the claims if he were among us, but unless these guys were exchanging TikToks they are in the clear. Hence the defensive blocking shot from MOD is exactly what I would expect.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,278
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    PB embodying all that is good about this country with an extended discussion about the weather.

    TBF we are facing a phenomenal spell of hot weather. If it verifies, it could be the hottest ever recorded in the UK - and our records go back further than anyone else’s - way back to the 17th-18th century
    I believe the accuracy of 17th century temperature gauges was particularly impressive.
    “the Central England Temperature series, which covers the temperature from the south Midlands to Lancashire, is the longest-running record in the world, dating from 1659.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/03/weather.features11
    Absolutely. The technology was so good from the 1670s onwards.
    Yes, I can hear your wearying sarcasm, but weather geeks regard this historical record as quite reliable, and it is often referenced
    It's certainly impressive compared to other records, but it also has its limitations. I think the data for daily maximum temperatures is only reliable back to 1878. And the earliest data for the 17th century is only given as monthly averages to the nearest half a degree.

    That's not to say it's useless, and your original statement is correct, but clearly the quality of the data does improve over the decades.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited July 2022

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Telegraph reporting that Boris held a Cobra meeting in Number 10 over the impending heatwave. 40C is still possible next weekend/Monday

    He held COBRA over a heatwave?
    A similar heatwave in France a few years ago killed thousands of vulnerable people, esp the old in non air conditioned dwellings

    So it’s very sensible. We’re not equipped for this heat

    Hopefully the French have sorted out their game, because they could break records there as well - potentially going over 45C
    Absolutely baking in Spain currently. Returning to the UK heatwave will be something of a relief! The Spanish are used to high temperatures, of course, but not this high. More worrying is the long-term decline in rainfall levels. That will make significant parts of the country uninhabitable. It’s been pretty dry in much of England this year, too.

    Mentioning Spain, I haven't noticed Felix posting recently. Hope he is OK and surviving the heat
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,407

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    You must travel to some very strange places. That is not my experience at all.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,754
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nigelb said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree on the first part (off-chance Hunt makes the first round?) but where their supporters go may be trickier to guess.

    More will head to Sunak than Mordaunt would like I think.
    Of the 3 front runners I think she's in the weakest position once we're into the contest proper.
    That's my least confident prediction though
    Yes, it will be Sunak vs Truss for the members and the members will choose Truss because the majority of Tory members have a couple of screws loose up here (caused by old age or otherwise)!
    My wife and I are old, and have some lose screws but fortunately many of them are very secure and I would suggest the saying you 'cannot put old heads on young shoulders' is quite succinct
    As is 'the fish rots from the head down'.
    I think there will be a strong desire to avoid one of Johnson's cabinet as next leader. Sunak is a possible exception to that, given his resignation, but Truss certainly isn't.
    I hope you are right as Mordaunt or Sunak are my choice
    How did you get over Sunak's FPN? You were quite adamant that Starmer should resign if he got one.
    When did I ever say Starmer should resign over his FPN - it was Starmer who made that undertaking

    The whole business of the covid regulations were idiotic as were the fines and fortunately they are not likely to be introduced in the future
    Your position on Starmer and Sunak is strikingly different when it comes to FPNs. I am trying to fathom out why that might be the case.
    It is one of those unfathomable mysteries, isn't it.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773

    kjh said:

    As someone who is involved in campaigns I am always appalled by crass statements that come out of Government departments when an alleged wrongdoing is published. The statement is normally pointless, not focused on the issue at hand and makes matters worse. I have experienced this so many times with the campaigns I have been involved in. I am sure people like @ydoethur experiences the same when he raises issues and sees the crass replies in response.

    The one from the MOD to the alleged SAS activity this morning is appalling. The response is:

    'British forces served with courage and professionalism in Afghanistan'

    I doubt anyone thinks that is generally untrue but what the hell has it got to do with the allegations this morning. It is crass, it is insensitive and is a reaction without any (further) investigation so also looks very defensive.

    That statement is not a reply to the claims being made. By all means say it, but with a bit more added eg we are not aware..., we will investigate these appalling allegations..., etc, etc.

    It is neither crass nor insensitive and moreover you are misquoting. What you quote is part of a much larger rebuttal including the fact there have been formal investigations into the claims which were found to be groundless. The MOD has very strongly contested the BBC claims and made it clear they are not factually accurate.

    But you carry on with your selective quoting if it makes you feel better
    I did not selectively quote. Others might have done so and I have picked that up. My quote is complete and in full from the BBC.

    Apologies if that is not accurate, but that is what people will see.

    I think you know me better than that Richard and I am a bit disappointed with that reply to me as I think you are aware that we are both on the same page on most things.

    It is a bug bear of mine and I am used to this sort of crap from Govt departments (and apologies if this is not the case this time, but that is what is being quoted). Interestingly I have correspondence from one minister (who I knew personally) who sent me a letter on one campaign I am involved in with this sort of rubbish and hand written note underneath which basically said sorry I have to send this crap out.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Chris Mason R4 asked Sir Graham Brady, if one of the final two drops out, the contest is over, although the 1922 don’t want that to happen, so the idea of number 3 being resurrected to go into the contest is wrong.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    Cheshti is in business on Betfair, £20 matched at 1000-1.

    I'd probably rather be on the lay side of that if I had the bank.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,754

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    You must travel to some very strange places. That is not my experience at all.
    I would love it if I got to travel to some very strange places, but unfortunately not, just the usual kind of places you might expect someone working in international finance to travel to.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    But you don't go abroad, as you've told us, because you are TOO SCARED OF DRIVING ON THE RIGHT

    lol

    If you see people laughing, on the vanishingly few times you do go abroad (on a coach tour to Belgium) it is probably because you are a mincing coward who is bewildered by "that there spaghetti" and uses it to lace his shoes
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Labour preparing a no confidence vote tomorrow

    I don't get this strategy. Will unify the Tories.
    Partly, it was a bullet they fired hoping it would push the Tories into evicting the liar clown pronto, which didn't work and they are now stuck with.

    Partly, the intention is to get every Tory MP's fingerprints - including the future leader and cabinet - on the decision to keep the liar clown in office through the summer. For Labour a lot rests on trying to spread the muck from the Johnson era over the lot of them, rather than allowing them another fake fresh start.
    There are a couple of candidates who would be a fresh start. Most though have backed every single decision that has been made Enthusiastically.

    The one to watch on that front is Sunak. We already know that a war of wills broke out between Sunak and Johnson over spending and taxation. Both are blaming the other. What I expect is that not only will Sunak blame Johnson, he will produce the evidence to prove it.

    The problem this causes for the other cabinet-level candidates is simple: they are/will attack Sunak because he is the lead contender. But in doing so they will inadvertently hitch themselves to Johnsonomics.

    A question for Tory posters - especially some of the newer / lurker ones: is the desire for "we're Tories, lets cut taxes" big enough to override basic fiscal conservatism? The country cannot afford most of what most of the candidates are promising and they will likely be forced to scrap most of these should they become PM. Does that matter? Or is it biggest fairy story wins the contest?
    I am very uneasy with the race to see who can cut taxes the most and quickest

    It is therefore incumbent on responsible conservatives to endorse Sunak's approach but I am content with Mordaunt as she is only suggesting cuts in fuel duty, but more importantly is a fresh face and one that could change the narrative for the party
    A fuel duty cut is different. Every single thing we have / use / eat is delivered by diesel. The massive spike in prices drives inflation which has a ruinous effect on people's finances and the economy. Whilst slashing duty will cost money, they will end up having to burn money to combat the inflationary effects of *not* slashing it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089

    Chris Mason R4 asked Sir Graham Brady, if one of the final two drops out, the contest is over, although the 1922 don’t want that to happen, so the idea of number 3 being resurrected to go into the contest is wrong.

    Sorry I hate to be a punctuation pedant, and mine certainly isn't perfect but I don't quite get what you're saying ?
  • I'm sorely tempted to make a trip to Cornwall this weekend, just to find out what worm charming tools people bring..

    And what is silver music?


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,955
    Very interesting Sunak then Tughenhat or Mordaunt would be most electorally potent. https://twitter.com/peterkellner1/status/1546737703747731457
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,407
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    As someone who is involved in campaigns I am always appalled by crass statements that come out of Government departments when an alleged wrongdoing is published. The statement is normally pointless, not focused on the issue at hand and makes matters worse. I have experienced this so many times with the campaigns I have been involved in. I am sure people like @ydoethur experiences the same when he raises issues and sees the crass replies in response.

    The one from the MOD to the alleged SAS activity this morning is appalling. The response is:

    'British forces served with courage and professionalism in Afghanistan'

    I doubt anyone thinks that is generally untrue but what the hell has it got to do with the allegations this morning. It is crass, it is insensitive and is a reaction without any (further) investigation so also looks very defensive.

    That statement is not a reply to the claims being made. By all means say it, but with a bit more added eg we are not aware..., we will investigate these appalling allegations..., etc, etc.

    It is neither crass nor insensitive and moreover you are misquoting. What you quote is part of a much larger rebuttal including the fact there have been formal investigations into the claims which were found to be groundless. The MOD has very strongly contested the BBC claims and made it clear they are not factually accurate.

    But you carry on with your selective quoting if it makes you feel better
    I did not selectively quote. Others might have done so and I have picked that up. My quote is complete and in full from the BBC.

    Apologies if that is not accurate, but that is what people will see.

    I think you know me better than that Richard and I am a bit disappointed with that reply to me as I think you are aware that we are both on the same page on most things.

    It is a bug bear of mine and I am used to this sort of crap from Govt departments (and apologies if this is not the case this time, but that is what is being quoted). Interestingly I have correspondence from one minister (who I knew personally) who sent me a letter on one campaign I am involved in with this sort of rubbish and hand written note underneath which basically said sorry I have to send this crap out.
    You may be right on this in general but in this case specifically the rebuttal was clear and strong. Two separate RMP investigations both of which found no case to answer. Moreover, given it was the BBC who are making these claims and have the most reason to want to push their story, it seems strange to rely solely upon them for your quote. All the more so when it is so clearly one sided and selective.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    IshmaelZ said:

    kjh said:

    As someone who is involved in campaigns I am always appalled by crass statements that come out of Government departments when an alleged wrongdoing is published. The statement is normally pointless, not focused on the issue at hand and makes matters worse. I have experienced this so many times with the campaigns I have been involved in. I am sure people like @ydoethur experiences the same when he raises issues and sees the crass replies in response.

    The one from the MOD to the alleged SAS activity this morning is appalling. The response is:

    'British forces served with courage and professionalism in Afghanistan'

    I doubt anyone thinks that is generally untrue but what the hell has it got to do with the allegations this morning. It is crass, it is insensitive and is a reaction without any (further) investigation so also looks very defensive.

    That statement is not a reply to the claims being made. By all means say it, but with a bit more added eg we are not aware..., we will investigate these appalling allegations..., etc, etc.

    All looks a bit thin. the BBC's main point is the suspicious recurrence of He grabbed a grenade/He grabbed a rifle stories, but what variations on those themes do they expect if you raid armed hostiles late at night? I mean, I am sure DA would confirm the credibility of the claims if he were among us, but unless these guys were exchanging TikToks they are in the clear. Hence the defensive blocking shot from MOD is exactly what I would expect.
    I have no idea if it is true or not. I hope it isn't. It might well have been fully investigated. None of that is the point. I am fed up with Govt Departments sending out crass comments. They do it all the time to everything that comes up.

    I could rattle of lists.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Telegraph reporting that Boris held a Cobra meeting in Number 10 over the impending heatwave. 40C is still possible next weekend/Monday

    He held COBRA over a heatwave?
    A similar heatwave in France a few years ago killed thousands of vulnerable people, esp the old in non air conditioned dwellings

    So it’s very sensible. We’re not equipped for this heat

    Hopefully the French have sorted out their game, because they could break records there as well - potentially going over 45C
    Absolutely baking in Spain currently. Returning to the UK heatwave will be something of a relief! The Spanish are used to high temperatures, of course, but not this high. More worrying is the long-term decline in rainfall levels. That will make significant parts of the country uninhabitable. It’s been pretty dry in much of England this year, too.

    I live in West Central Scotland - what is this "hot, dry weather" I hear rumours of?
    I live on the east coast of Scotland and I am struggling to recall the last day without some rain, other than Sunday. The result on the crops around here has been dramatic. Crops that were really stunted at the middle of June have shot up. If it is dry for harvest there will be a good return this year. Even now though the woodland paths are dusty. It was seriously dry for so long that the rain is absorbed really quickly.

    Overall, I love our weather. You get used to 3 seasons in a day, great variety and very rare extremes. If it gets a little warmer we could be bordering on perfect but I appreciate that this is no laughing matter for those further south.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    But you don't go abroad, as you've told us, because you are TOO SCARED OF DRIVING ON THE RIGHT

    lol

    If you see people laughing, on the vanishingly few times you do go abroad (on a coach tour to Belgium) it is probably because you are a mincing coward who is bewildered by "that there spaghetti" and uses it to lace his shoes
    I sympathise, I nearly destroyed the most expensive looking Mercedes I have ever seen the other day in a fit of absent minded linksismus in my fiat panda in Taormina.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    You must travel to some very strange places. That is not my experience at all.
    Flew to Romania late April and was in a car with Romanian and German employees of my client. A lot of talk about our "clown King" and our stupid Brexit deal which we now want to scrap.

    The only other example of similar I can think of was being in America late summer of 1997. "Oh you're British? We're so sorry about Princess Diana" followed by endless guff about her whilst I thought "meh"
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886

    Chris Mason R4 asked Sir Graham Brady, if one of the final two drops out, the contest is over, although the 1922 don’t want that to happen, so the idea of number 3 being resurrected to go into the contest is wrong.

    So its on. Remove the clown king this month. Simply eradicate all contenders to Sunak. Because the crook having to hand over to his neighbour would really wind him up.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Nigelb said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, I agree on the first part (off-chance Hunt makes the first round?) but where their supporters go may be trickier to guess.

    More will head to Sunak than Mordaunt would like I think.
    Of the 3 front runners I think she's in the weakest position once we're into the contest proper.
    That's my least confident prediction though
    Yes, it will be Sunak vs Truss for the members and the members will choose Truss because the majority of Tory members have a couple of screws loose up here (caused by old age or otherwise)!
    My wife and I are old, and have some lose screws but fortunately many of them are very secure and I would suggest the saying you 'cannot put old heads on young shoulders' is quite succinct
    As is 'the fish rots from the head down'.
    I think there will be a strong desire to avoid one of Johnson's cabinet as next leader. Sunak is a possible exception to that, given his resignation, but Truss certainly isn't.
    I hope you are right as Mordaunt or Sunak are my choice
    How did you get over Sunak's FPN? You were quite adamant that Starmer should resign if he got one.
    When did I ever say Starmer should resign over his FPN - it was Starmer who made that undertaking

    The whole business of the covid regulations were idiotic as were the fines and fortunately they are not likely to be introduced in the future
    Your position on Starmer and Sunak is strikingly different when it comes to FPNs. I am trying to fathom out why that might be the case.
    Perhaps Durham police can be encouraged to investigate this mystery......
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755
    On topic, I think that it is too early to say that the Tories have lost the next election. Polling in the shambolic chaos of a party throwing out a congenital liar as leader really doesn't tell us much.

    What I think is already becoming clearer is that the party is coming to appreciate the need for a complete break from the Boris era and that will help those who were not in the cabinet. What the country needs is competence, moderation and honesty. If the new leader does provide that for 2 years its game on.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,519



    Who knows. We rarely get the metal of a politician before they are given power. The obvious exceptions are the ones who should never be allowed near power - Johnson, Trump, Patel, Raab etc. But for the rest you really can't say who will up their game until they are actually in the hot seat.

    But in one way it doesn't matter. I am not interested in who will be the best person to win the next election. I am interested in who will be the best person to deal with the crisis of the next 2 years and do the right things even if it costs them the next election.

    Only thing is, you're likely to have the same issue, don't you think? I can't see the new leader, faced with the oncoming crisis, NOT calling a General Election in November straight after the Tory conference. They probably won't get a better shot before their promises unravel. So the question of who will win an election becomes immediately relevant.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kjh said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kjh said:

    As someone who is involved in campaigns I am always appalled by crass statements that come out of Government departments when an alleged wrongdoing is published. The statement is normally pointless, not focused on the issue at hand and makes matters worse. I have experienced this so many times with the campaigns I have been involved in. I am sure people like @ydoethur experiences the same when he raises issues and sees the crass replies in response.

    The one from the MOD to the alleged SAS activity this morning is appalling. The response is:

    'British forces served with courage and professionalism in Afghanistan'

    I doubt anyone thinks that is generally untrue but what the hell has it got to do with the allegations this morning. It is crass, it is insensitive and is a reaction without any (further) investigation so also looks very defensive.

    That statement is not a reply to the claims being made. By all means say it, but with a bit more added eg we are not aware..., we will investigate these appalling allegations..., etc, etc.

    All looks a bit thin. the BBC's main point is the suspicious recurrence of He grabbed a grenade/He grabbed a rifle stories, but what variations on those themes do they expect if you raid armed hostiles late at night? I mean, I am sure DA would confirm the credibility of the claims if he were among us, but unless these guys were exchanging TikToks they are in the clear. Hence the defensive blocking shot from MOD is exactly what I would expect.
    I have no idea if it is true or not. I hope it isn't. It might well have been fully investigated. None of that is the point. I am fed up with Govt Departments sending out crass comments. They do it all the time to everything that comes up.

    I could rattle of lists.
    If their position is it didn't happen it is their duty to come out and say so. If you are not sufficiently robust you risk sounding like It never happened anyway but we definitely won't do it again.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Telegraph reporting that Boris held a Cobra meeting in Number 10 over the impending heatwave. 40C is still possible next weekend/Monday

    He held COBRA over a heatwave?
    A similar heatwave in France a few years ago killed thousands of vulnerable people, esp the old in non air conditioned dwellings

    So it’s very sensible. We’re not equipped for this heat

    Hopefully the French have sorted out their game, because they could break records there as well - potentially going over 45C
    Absolutely baking in Spain currently. Returning to the UK heatwave will be something of a relief! The Spanish are used to high temperatures, of course, but not this high. More worrying is the long-term decline in rainfall levels. That will make significant parts of the country uninhabitable. It’s been pretty dry in much of England this year, too.

    I live in West Central Scotland - what is this "hot, dry weather" I hear rumours of?
    I live on the east coast of Scotland and I am struggling to recall the last day without some rain, other than Sunday. The result on the crops around here has been dramatic. Crops that were really stunted at the middle of June have shot up. If it is dry for harvest there will be a good return this year. Even now though the woodland paths are dusty. It was seriously dry for so long that the rain is absorbed really quickly.

    Overall, I love our weather. You get used to 3 seasons in a day, great variety and very rare extremes. If it gets a little warmer we could be bordering on perfect but I appreciate that this is no laughing matter for those further south.
    And minimal midges. That is another benefit of living east.
  • Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    And yet, 42% of us did not vote for the Far Right candidate as our supreme leader. Unlike France. Funny, that
    43.6% of us voted for an equally unsuitable, dishonest, corrupt right wing populist. And, unlike in France, our political system actually made him leader.

    As I say, there are significant political issues in France, Germany and elsewhere. There are real crises across western democracies. But their systems have held up, delivering governments capable of governing.

    Ours hasn't - we've not had a stable government capable of developing and delivering a coherent policy since Nick Clegg left the scene. You can argue, and many do, with the policy record of the Coalition Government. But it was coherent and consistent, and the point is it had a meaningful record.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    You must travel to some very strange places. That is not my experience at all.
    Flew to Romania late April and was in a car with Romanian and German employees of my client. A lot of talk about our "clown King" and our stupid Brexit deal which we now want to scrap.

    The only other example of similar I can think of was being in America late summer of 1997. "Oh you're British? We're so sorry about Princess Diana" followed by endless guff about her whilst I thought "meh"
    Well, weirdly enough, and speaking as the PB-er who travels more than any other, certainly in the last six months, I can report that in the last 11 weeks of constant movement, from the USA to Turkey to Greece to Germany to Georgia to Armenia to Montenegro....I have not heard a single statement like this. And I have often volunteered my nationality in conversations, as you do


    It's funny that it is the dimmer, middlebrow, lefty, Britain-hating Remainers that consistently uncover these reactions, and no one else. Anyone might think they provoke them, eagerly asking opinions of "our awful prime minister" - at which point their bored interlocutors, desperate to get rid of this creepy British weirdo in sandals, tell them what they want to hear so they go away
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802
    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think that it is too early to say that the Tories have lost the next election. Polling in the shambolic chaos of a party throwing out a congenital liar as leader really doesn't tell us much.

    What I think is already becoming clearer is that the party is coming to appreciate the need for a complete break from the Boris era and that will help those who were not in the cabinet. What the country needs is competence, moderation and honesty. If the new leader does provide that for 2 years its game on.

    Competence, moderation and honesty are what I look for in every election. My horse rarely wins!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    And yet, 42% of us did not vote for the Far Right candidate as our supreme leader. Unlike France. Funny, that
    43.6% of us voted for an equally unsuitable, dishonest, corrupt right wing populist. And, unlike in France, our political system actually made him leader.

    As I say, there are significant political issues in France, Germany and elsewhere. There are real crises across western democracies. But their systems have held up, delivering governments capable of governing.

    Ours hasn't - we've not had a stable government capable of developing and delivering a coherent policy since Nick Clegg left the scene. You can argue, and many do, with the policy record of the Coalition Government. But it was coherent and consistent, and the point is it had a meaningful record.
    You're just an idiot. Sorry
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Pulpstar said:

    Chris Mason R4 asked Sir Graham Brady, if one of the final two drops out, the contest is over, although the 1922 don’t want that to happen, so the idea of number 3 being resurrected to go into the contest is wrong.

    Sorry I hate to be a punctuation pedant, and mine certainly isn't perfect but I don't quite get what you're saying ?
    There was speculation earlier on Today that to avoid a coronation as with May & Leadsom, if when the final two were arrived at, one of them was to drop out, a membership ballot would still go ahead as number 3 would be put back on the ballot. That will not happen. If one of the final two drops out we will have a new PM by the end of next week.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,243
    Pulpstar said:

    Chris Mason R4 asked Sir Graham Brady, if one of the final two drops out, the contest is over, although the 1922 don’t want that to happen, so the idea of number 3 being resurrected to go into the contest is wrong.

    Sorry I hate to be a punctuation pedant, and mine certainly isn't perfect but I don't quite get what you're saying ?
    If one of the fine two drops out then the last person standing becomes PM. They won't bring back the person who was third place Con MPs to face the membership.

    I can't see any chance that one of the final two drops out though. Why should they?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    PB embodying all that is good about this country with an extended discussion about the weather.

    TBF we are facing a phenomenal spell of hot weather. If it verifies, it could be the hottest ever recorded in the UK - and our records go back further than anyone else’s - way back to the 17th-18th century
    I believe the accuracy of 17th century temperature gauges was particularly impressive.
    “the Central England Temperature series, which covers the temperature from the south Midlands to Lancashire, is the longest-running record in the world, dating from 1659.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/03/weather.features11
    Absolutely. The technology was so good from the 1670s onwards.
    Yes, I can hear your wearying sarcasm, but weather geeks regard this historical record as quite reliable, and it is often referenced
    The 1953 paper on it is an interesting read.
    https://www.rmets.org/sites/default/files/qj53manley.pdf
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,407
    kjh said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kjh said:

    As someone who is involved in campaigns I am always appalled by crass statements that come out of Government departments when an alleged wrongdoing is published. The statement is normally pointless, not focused on the issue at hand and makes matters worse. I have experienced this so many times with the campaigns I have been involved in. I am sure people like @ydoethur experiences the same when he raises issues and sees the crass replies in response.

    The one from the MOD to the alleged SAS activity this morning is appalling. The response is:

    'British forces served with courage and professionalism in Afghanistan'

    I doubt anyone thinks that is generally untrue but what the hell has it got to do with the allegations this morning. It is crass, it is insensitive and is a reaction without any (further) investigation so also looks very defensive.

    That statement is not a reply to the claims being made. By all means say it, but with a bit more added eg we are not aware..., we will investigate these appalling allegations..., etc, etc.

    All looks a bit thin. the BBC's main point is the suspicious recurrence of He grabbed a grenade/He grabbed a rifle stories, but what variations on those themes do they expect if you raid armed hostiles late at night? I mean, I am sure DA would confirm the credibility of the claims if he were among us, but unless these guys were exchanging TikToks they are in the clear. Hence the defensive blocking shot from MOD is exactly what I would expect.
    I have no idea if it is true or not. I hope it isn't. It might well have been fully investigated. None of that is the point. I am fed up with Govt Departments sending out crass comments. They do it all the time to everything that comes up.

    I could rattle of lists.
    A part of the MOD statement:

    ‘Two service police operations carried out extensive and independent investigations into allegations about the conduct of UK forces in Afghanistan.

    ‘Neither investigation found sufficient evidence to prosecute.

    ‘The Ministry of Defence stands open to considering any new evidence, there would be no obstruction.’

    'No new evidence has been presented, but the Service Police will consider any allegations should new evidence come to light.'

    So your claim that the MOD response was limited to one line praising courage and professionalism is plain wrong.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    PB embodying all that is good about this country with an extended discussion about the weather.

    TBF we are facing a phenomenal spell of hot weather. If it verifies, it could be the hottest ever recorded in the UK - and our records go back further than anyone else’s - way back to the 17th-18th century
    I believe the accuracy of 17th century temperature gauges was particularly impressive.
    “the Central England Temperature series, which covers the temperature from the south Midlands to Lancashire, is the longest-running record in the world, dating from 1659.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/03/weather.features11
    Absolutely. The technology was so good from the 1670s onwards.
    Yes, I can hear your wearying sarcasm, but weather geeks regard this historical record as quite reliable, and it is often referenced
    The 1953 paper on it is an interesting read.
    https://www.rmets.org/sites/default/files/qj53manley.pdf
    That took you a while
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    And yet, 42% of us did not vote for the Far Right candidate as our supreme leader. Unlike France. Funny, that
    43.6% of us voted for an equally unsuitable, dishonest, corrupt right wing populist. And, unlike in France, our political system actually made him leader.

    As I say, there are significant political issues in France, Germany and elsewhere. There are real crises across western democracies. But their systems have held up, delivering governments capable of governing.

    Ours hasn't - we've not had a stable government capable of developing and delivering a coherent policy since Nick Clegg left the scene. You can argue, and many do, with the policy record of the Coalition Government. But it was coherent and consistent, and the point is it had a meaningful record.
    You're just an idiot. Sorry
    Strong argument. No wonder you are revered as PB's second greatest thinker after HYUFD.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    DavidL said:

    On topic, I think that it is too early to say that the Tories have lost the next election. Polling in the shambolic chaos of a party throwing out a congenital liar as leader really doesn't tell us much.

    What I think is already becoming clearer is that the party is coming to appreciate the need for a complete break from the Boris era and that will help those who were not in the cabinet. What the country needs is competence, moderation and honesty. If the new leader does provide that for 2 years its game on.

    Competence, moderation and honesty are what I look for in every election. My horse rarely wins!
    Fair point but I think the candidates are at least starting to look in that direction rather than focusing on silly obsessions.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485

    Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    And yet, 42% of us did not vote for the Far Right candidate as our supreme leader. Unlike France. Funny, that
    43.6% of us voted for an equally unsuitable, dishonest, corrupt right wing populist. And, unlike in France, our political system actually made him leader.

    As I say, there are significant political issues in France, Germany and elsewhere. There are real crises across western democracies. But their systems have held up, delivering governments capable of governing.

    Ours hasn't - we've not had a stable government capable of developing and delivering a coherent policy since Nick Clegg left the scene. You can argue, and many do, with the policy record of the Coalition Government. But it was coherent and consistent, and the point is it had a meaningful record.
    Nick Clegg's red line that there should be no discussion of our place in the EU during the Coalition gave us Brexit.

    Stable government my arse.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,754
    Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    But you don't go abroad, as you've told us, because you are TOO SCARED OF DRIVING ON THE RIGHT

    lol

    If you see people laughing, on the vanishingly few times you do go abroad (on a coach tour to Belgium) it is probably because you are a mincing coward who is bewildered by "that there spaghetti" and uses it to lace his shoes
    Ah Leon, living proof that travel doesn't broaden the mind. Come on, you can do better than that.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    You must travel to some very strange places. That is not my experience at all.
    Flew to Romania late April and was in a car with Romanian and German employees of my client. A lot of talk about our "clown King" and our stupid Brexit deal which we now want to scrap.

    The only other example of similar I can think of was being in America late summer of 1997. "Oh you're British? We're so sorry about Princess Diana" followed by endless guff about her whilst I thought "meh"
    I think what is happening here is people being cautious reflectors when discussing politics with someone from another country.

    If I met a pro Trump American, my language about US politics would be very different to if I met a normal American. Not 180 degrees different, but significantly so, and I feel that is the correct and polite way to talk to a stranger in a casual conversation about politics.

    Similarly Brits who really dislike our politics, will get that view echoed when abroad, and Brits who dislike EU politics and think Boris a great statesman will get a very different response.

    In reality most foreigners don't care much about UK politics either way.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,475
    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:


    Essentially these warehouses are sitting ducks because the Russians don't have the capability to disperse them.

    We are now at the stage where Russia seems to have shot its bolt and to have little meaningful in reserve while the Ukrainians will be receiving more equipment. Partisan activity also seems to be stepping up.

    Give it 6-8 weeks and Russia is going to be in serious trouble.

    Nigelb said:

    That looks like quite a big dump.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1546712454117240832
    Compilation of the clips showing the explosion of the ammunition warehouse in Nova Kakhovka.

    Russia's way of conducting war - shell, demolish, advance - only works when it has the advantage of range.

    Robbed of that, they are stuffed.

    Plus, Ukraine will have very precise details of the locations of these warehouses - both from satellite images but also a huge network of partisans.

    Russia needs a serious rethink. Preferably from within its own borders.

    I see Oryx has confirmed Russian tank losses at 865. Russian tank crews in Ukraine must now have significantly lower life expectancies than even WW2 U-boat crews.
    So, in my humble opinion the UK is currently making the same mistake as Russia in this war. Failing to see a step ahead and acting proactively to counter the threat.

    As Russia’s fortunes on the battlefield go down the toilet, we will be passing through autumn. Conceivably we might see the Crimea Bridge destroyed in that time frame.

    What does Putin have left at that point? The natural gas weapon. European gas exports are just 3-4% of total Russian exports and in the medium term Europe are openly saying they’ll stop buying anyway. It’s a very low cost card for Putin to play, at a time his own position will be very weak indeed.

    As best I can tell, the UK’s plan is: turn off the gas interconnector to Europe. Which fails to acknowledge that Norway could well respond to that by diverting a large part of our supply to mainland Europe directly.

    We should be preparing for this winter with a state of emergency equivalent to building spitfires in ‘39-40. Instead we have a bunch of preening peacocks spending the whole summer coming up with ever more ridiculous tax cut boasts rather than consolidating around one candidate and doing everything possible to prepare for what might be a severe national crisis this winter.

    What actions would you be taking at the moment in this 'state of emergency' ?
    At a minimum money and resource should be thrown at every non-gas generating source to ensure availability rates are as high as possible this winter. Both in terms of plant readiness and where applicable stores of raw material input.

    Secondly it may just be possible in that timeframe to ensure some of the biomass generators can be requipped for coal.

    Thirdly we should be signing term contracts for LNG supply underwritten by the UK government.

    Fourthly, a state procurement exercise for fallback power sources (I.E. generators and batteries) for key services. Hospitals should already be covered but I am specifically thinking of schools and water supply. Where applicable combine with solar.

    Fifthly, correcting some of the policy wrongs of the past, including removal of Vat for solar pv/battery storage.

    Provide winter resilience for the several million properties that are off the gas grid and require power to operate oil fired boilers. Gas camp stoves with gas bottles for boiling water and food prep is a good start. Hot water bottles in an unheated house could conceivably save lives this winter.

    And then there’s demand. Take off the shackles with a national building insulation programme. And draw up an industrial prioritisation list for nat gas (and power) in case rationing is required.

    I’m not an expert, I’m sure I’ve missed plenty.
    That's an interesting list, thanks. But remember we are talking about problems that are six months away. That isn't a great deal of time.

    For point 1:, we may already well be throwing resources at every non-gas generating source - it's just not sexy, so it doesn't get reported on. For instance, bringing forwards maintenance on our nukes to this summer, or ensuring the biomass stores at Drax are full.

    For point 2:, where do we source the coal? If we are getting it from abroad, do we still have the trains required to take it from port to power station (coal traffic has virtually disappeared over the last twenty years, and the wagon stocks massively reduced). How easily can the biomass stations be reequipped for coal?

    For point 3: this does seem rather like bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted. The time for such contracts was before the current crisis, not during it.

    For point 5: will do sod-all for this winter as we
    will not be able to get enough new solar pv or
    batteries installed before winter.

    Ditto an insulation program: that's far too long
    term for the immediate crisis.

    My main thinking about these is that whilst they're
    good, the government could be doing them and
    they're not getting reported as they've 'boring'. Or they could be doing nothing...
    That this is a hard problem to counter and that it will be imperfectly met even with total focus does not mean we should not be trying.

    As for assuming the government is quietly doing some of these things but not telling us. If that helps you sleep soundly at night so be it.

    Governments do masses of things quietly without telling us. The vast majority of stuff they do, they do quietly because no-one is interested.

    "Government increases supply of staples to the Department of Agriculture by 3% to cope with supply shortage!" does not make a good headline.

    And when it comes to power, people rarely take interest even in the big-ticket items,
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,734

    I'm sorely tempted to make a trip to Cornwall this weekend, just to find out what worm charming tools people bring..

    And what is silver music?


    Silver music is presumably music played by a silver band. They're posh in Cornwall - in the North of England we use brass. I don't know the difference in the acoustics.

    I also can't let this pass without parochially noting that the big event in the worm charming calendar is in Cheshire, where, I think, we have more worms in our soil than anywhere else (or perhaps they're just keener to surface).
    I am only half remembering the details, to be honest.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,327

    Labour preparing a no confidence vote tomorrow

    In Starmer?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,763

    OT ;) Flip-flopping favourites for next PM. Rishi is back in front.

    3.2 Rishi Sunak
    3.35 Penny Mordaunt
    5 Liz Truss
    12.5 Tom Tugendhat
    15 Kemi Badenoch
    27 Jeremy Hunt
    60 Sajid Javid
    75 Nadhim Zahawi
    75 Priti Patel
    90 Suella Braverman
    100 Dominic Raab

    2.94 Rishi Sunak
    3.35 Penny Mordaunt
    5.4 Liz Truss
    15 Tom Tugendhat
    16.5 Kemi Badenoch
    40 Nadhim Zahawi
    46 Jeremy Hunt
    85 Sajid Javid
    90 Dominic Raab
    100 Priti Patel
    100 Suella Braverman
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    I don't think there will be a coronation as there is a very realistic possibility the person who has most MP votes could end up losing when the vote goes to the membership.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,734
    Cookie said:

    I'm sorely tempted to make a trip to Cornwall this weekend, just to find out what worm charming tools people bring..

    And what is silver music?


    Silver music is presumably music played by a silver band. They're posh in Cornwall - in the North of England we use brass. I don't know the difference in the acoustics.

    I also can't let this pass without parochially noting that the big event in the worm charming calendar is in Cheshire, where, I think, we have more worms in our soil than anywhere else (or perhaps they're just keener to surface).
    I am only half remembering the details, to be honest.
    Ah, here we go:
    https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/weird-wonderful-worm-charming-championships-22894898
  • Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    And yet, 42% of us did not vote for the Far Right candidate as our supreme leader. Unlike France. Funny, that
    43.6% of us voted for an equally unsuitable, dishonest, corrupt right wing populist. And, unlike in France, our political system actually made him leader.

    As I say, there are significant political issues in France, Germany and elsewhere. There are real crises across western democracies. But their systems have held up, delivering governments capable of governing.

    Ours hasn't - we've not had a stable government capable of developing and delivering a coherent policy since Nick Clegg left the scene. You can argue, and many do, with the policy record of the Coalition Government. But it was coherent and consistent, and the point is it had a meaningful record.
    Nick Clegg's red line that there should be no discussion of our place in the EU during the Coalition gave us Brexit.

    Stable government my arse.
    The idea that the Tory civil war over Europe, raging for decades, and resolving itself in the way it did after he left Government, is the fault of Nick Clegg, is utterly risible.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485

    I'm sorely tempted to make a trip to Cornwall this weekend, just to find out what worm charming tools people bring..

    And what is silver music?


    We have a worm charming in our village.

    A pair of wooden seagull feet drumming the surface mimics how gulls get worms to come up.

    Others use mystery potions, said by some to include Lea and Perrins.....
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,802

    OT ;) Flip-flopping favourites for next PM. Rishi is back in front.

    3.2 Rishi Sunak
    3.35 Penny Mordaunt
    5 Liz Truss
    12.5 Tom Tugendhat
    15 Kemi Badenoch
    27 Jeremy Hunt
    60 Sajid Javid
    75 Nadhim Zahawi
    75 Priti Patel
    90 Suella Braverman
    100 Dominic Raab

    2.94 Rishi Sunak
    3.35 Penny Mordaunt
    5.4 Liz Truss
    15 Tom Tugendhat
    16.5 Kemi Badenoch
    40 Nadhim Zahawi
    46 Jeremy Hunt
    85 Sajid Javid
    90 Dominic Raab
    100 Priti Patel
    100 Suella Braverman
    How does Sunak win?

    vs Tugendhat in final 2 - possible but unlikely
    opponent in final 2 in scandal that comes out at right time - reasonable chance perhaps

    Not really sure how else?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039

    Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    But you don't go abroad, as you've told us, because you are TOO SCARED OF DRIVING ON THE RIGHT

    lol

    If you see people laughing, on the vanishingly few times you do go abroad (on a coach tour to Belgium) it is probably because you are a mincing coward who is bewildered by "that there spaghetti" and uses it to lace his shoes
    Ah Leon, living proof that travel doesn't broaden the mind. Come on, you can do better than that.
    But you told us this. You don't take hols abroad because you are too scared of driving on the right. Like a 12 year old. And yet you also present yourself as some kind of gauge of international opinion, measured on your many adventures abroad
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    And yet, 42% of us did not vote for the Far Right candidate as our supreme leader. Unlike France. Funny, that
    43.6% of us voted for an equally unsuitable, dishonest, corrupt right wing populist. And, unlike in France, our political system actually made him leader.

    As I say, there are significant political issues in France, Germany and elsewhere. There are real crises across western democracies. But their systems have held up, delivering governments capable of governing.

    Ours hasn't - we've not had a stable government capable of developing and delivering a coherent policy since Nick Clegg left the scene. You can argue, and many do, with the policy record of the Coalition Government. But it was coherent and consistent, and the point is it had a meaningful record.
    Well, it is rare to find someone to stand up for Stooly Clegg these days.

    In our system, it is very rare to last as PM for more than 5 years (one full term). A Thatcher or a Blair are very rare.

    Callaghan, Brown, May, Johnson all were < 5 years. Cameron was 6 years, Major was a limping 7 years.

    I suspect the next few PMs will be < 5 years as well.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485
    IshmaelZ said:

    murali_s said:

    Eabhal said:

    Labour preparing a no confidence vote tomorrow

    I don't get this strategy. Will unify the Tories.
    Disagree - it’s a win-win for Labour.
    Go on then - spell out those wins....
    Embarrass each and every Tory MP

    Field day in HoC reviewing bojo recent history including lebedev

    Establish continuity between bojo and successor

    Look as if they are doing something

    Ha! You think Tory MPs are capable of embarrassment?

    Try again....
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,886
    Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    You must travel to some very strange places. That is not my experience at all.
    Flew to Romania late April and was in a car with Romanian and German employees of my client. A lot of talk about our "clown King" and our stupid Brexit deal which we now want to scrap.

    The only other example of similar I can think of was being in America late summer of 1997. "Oh you're British? We're so sorry about Princess Diana" followed by endless guff about her whilst I thought "meh"
    Well, weirdly enough, and speaking as the PB-er who travels more than any other, certainly in the last six months, I can report that in the last 11 weeks of constant movement, from the USA to Turkey to Greece to Germany to Georgia to Armenia to Montenegro....I have not heard a single statement like this. And I have often volunteered my nationality in conversations, as you do


    It's funny that it is the dimmer, middlebrow, lefty, Britain-hating Remainers that consistently uncover these reactions, and no one else. Anyone might think they provoke them, eagerly asking opinions of "our awful prime minister" - at which point their bored interlocutors, desperate to get rid of this creepy British weirdo in sandals, tell them what they want to hear so they go away
    Yup. These three Germans I had never met detected that I was a "dimmer, middlebrow, lefty, Britain-hating Remainers" and adjusted their conversation topic accordingly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755

    I'm sorely tempted to make a trip to Cornwall this weekend, just to find out what worm charming tools people bring..

    And what is silver music?


    We have a worm charming in our village.

    A pair of wooden seagull feet drumming the surface mimics how gulls get worms to come up.

    Others use mystery potions, said by some to include Lea and Perrins.....
    I have a vague recollection of doing experiments at primary school where we poured some chemical that I have forgotten on square yards and then counted the number of worms that came up. IIRC we concluded that there were more worms where the soil was damp and the vegetation lush. It was ground breaking stuff! The worms were then washed and returned to the soil unharmed by the way.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,572
    Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    We have become a joke. When I travel internationally for work people either laugh at us or shake their heads sadly at whatever the latest nonsense development is. My only response is that I am Scottish and perhaps one day we will escape the asylum.
    You must travel to some very strange places. That is not my experience at all.
    Flew to Romania late April and was in a car with Romanian and German employees of my client. A lot of talk about our "clown King" and our stupid Brexit deal which we now want to scrap.

    The only other example of similar I can think of was being in America late summer of 1997. "Oh you're British? We're so sorry about Princess Diana" followed by endless guff about her whilst I thought "meh"
    Well, weirdly enough, and speaking as the PB-er who travels more than any other, certainly in the last six months, I can report that in the last 11 weeks of constant movement, from the USA to Turkey to Greece to Germany to Georgia to Armenia to Montenegro....I have not heard a single statement like this. And I have often volunteered my nationality in conversations, as you do


    It's funny that it is the dimmer, middlebrow, lefty, Britain-hating Remainers that consistently uncover these reactions, and no one else. Anyone might think they provoke them, eagerly asking opinions of "our awful prime minister" - at which point their bored interlocutors, desperate to get rid of this creepy British weirdo in sandals, tell them what they want to hear so they go away
    It is a phenomenon that we see on both sides. Just let week CR was dealing us with his tales of how jealous the Bulgarians were of Brexit.

    I don't talk of Brexit when travelling at home or abroad. My European friends know my views already
  • IshmaelZ said:

    murali_s said:

    Eabhal said:

    Labour preparing a no confidence vote tomorrow

    I don't get this strategy. Will unify the Tories.
    Disagree - it’s a win-win for Labour.
    Go on then - spell out those wins....
    Embarrass each and every Tory MP

    Field day in HoC reviewing bojo recent history including lebedev

    Establish continuity between bojo and successor

    Look as if they are doing something

    Ha! You think Tory MPs are capable of embarrassment?

    Try again....
    Besides, Boris is already on his way out, removed by Tory MPs not Labour ones.

    All they're doing by emphasising Boris's personal foibles is showing that the Tories have made a change.

    If Labour were serious, they could be leading on Cost of Living etc and saying that the Tories aren't doing enough on xyz but instead they are putting the centre of attention on the one problem they are handling . . .
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    edited July 2022

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    As someone who is involved in campaigns I am always appalled by crass statements that come out of Government departments when an alleged wrongdoing is published. The statement is normally pointless, not focused on the issue at hand and makes matters worse. I have experienced this so many times with the campaigns I have been involved in. I am sure people like @ydoethur experiences the same when he raises issues and sees the crass replies in response.

    The one from the MOD to the alleged SAS activity this morning is appalling. The response is:

    'British forces served with courage and professionalism in Afghanistan'

    I doubt anyone thinks that is generally untrue but what the hell has it got to do with the allegations this morning. It is crass, it is insensitive and is a reaction without any (further) investigation so also looks very defensive.

    That statement is not a reply to the claims being made. By all means say it, but with a bit more added eg we are not aware..., we will investigate these appalling allegations..., etc, etc.

    It is neither crass nor insensitive and moreover you are misquoting. What you quote is part of a much larger rebuttal including the fact there have been formal investigations into the claims which were found to be groundless. The MOD has very strongly contested the BBC claims and made it clear they are not factually accurate.

    But you carry on with your selective quoting if it makes you feel better
    I did not selectively quote. Others might have done so and I have picked that up. My quote is complete and in full from the BBC.

    Apologies if that is not accurate, but that is what people will see.

    I think you know me better than that Richard and I am a bit disappointed with that reply to me as I think you are aware that we are both on the same page on most things.

    It is a bug bear of mine and I am used to this sort of crap from Govt departments (and apologies if this is not the case this time, but that is what is being quoted). Interestingly I have correspondence from one minister (who I knew personally) who sent me a letter on one campaign I am involved in with this sort of rubbish and hand written note underneath which basically said sorry I have to send this crap out.
    You may be right on this in general but in this case specifically the rebuttal was clear and strong. Two separate RMP investigations both of which found no case to answer. Moreover, given it was the BBC who are making these claims and have the most reason to want to push their story, it seems strange to rely solely upon them for your quote. All the more so when it is so clearly one sided and selective.
    My apologies if it was and I am glad to hear it. I had no idea who was making the claims I am just seeing the Govt quote and thinking 'Here we go again'.

    For the record I don't think this is political having done FOI requests on this sort of stuff it is clearly civil service generated who want to prevent investigations probably motivated by the time it then takes them. They want to do the minimum of work. Some FOI requests are very illuminating:

    a) Most ministers send out the draft prepared for them unaltered and usually unquestioned (the draft and ministers questions about the draft are there to be seen in the FOIs)

    b) The civil servants are not adverse to lying or exaggerating spectacularly.

    I will give you one of many examples I could give and I have quite a few. Having cocked up badly in a reply, I had a conversation with the Head of Communications of a Govt Dept, which I will not name. As it happened the group of people I was representing were all highly qualified scientists (All had doctorates and there were a number of professors in the group). The Head of Communications commented that he should have been more careful in the replies bearing in mind who they were dealing with. To which my reaction was so it is ok to mislead say dustmen but you needed to be more careful with us because you might get caught out telling fibs then. I was not impressed with his approach to ethics.

    My apologies but I have seen too much of this sort of crap and in genuine cases (I'm not saying this is one, I have no idea) it delays justice often for decades.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,734

    Leon said:

    Lord Adonis appears to think not changing political leadership is a sign of strength. Glossing over French Presidential terms (how could you remove a dud?) and Germany has now swapped Merkel for Scholz, neither of whom history may judge kindly

    Most British heads of govt in last half century have lasted less than 4 years & we’re about to embark on the 11th. In France & Germany not a single head of govt has lasted less than 4 yrs. Spot the country in deep democratic crisis. More in my newsletter

    https://twitter.com/andrew_adonis/status/1546756685502578689

    Oh, for goodness sake. You can argue that there have been important policy failures in France or Germany.

    But we're a complete basketcase in terms of developed nations. We'll soon be moving on to our fourth PM in six years, and all three of those we've had have been absolute duds, with their terms ending under a shadow, in failure and farce. We are not, at present, a stable country with a political system that appears capable of providing a steady government developing long term, predictable policy of any kind.
    And yet, 42% of us did not vote for the Far Right candidate as our supreme leader. Unlike France. Funny, that
    43.6% of us voted for an equally unsuitable, dishonest, corrupt right wing populist. And, unlike in France, our political system actually made him leader.

    As I say, there are significant political issues in France, Germany and elsewhere. There are real crises across western democracies. But their systems have held up, delivering governments capable of governing.

    Ours hasn't - we've not had a stable government capable of developing and delivering a coherent policy since Nick Clegg left the scene. You can argue, and many do, with the policy record of the Coalition Government. But it was coherent and consistent, and the point is it had a meaningful record.
    Well, it is rare to find someone to stand up for Stooly Clegg these days.

    In our system, it is very rare to last as PM for more than 5 years (one full term). A Thatcher or a Blair are very rare.

    Callaghan, Brown, May, Johnson all were < 5 years. Cameron was 6 years, Major was a limping 7 years.

    I suspect the next few PMs will be < 5 years as well.
    Those of us who grew up in the 80s and 90s have a distorted idea of what's normal. Before Thatcher, the average time in office of a post-war PM was about 3 and three quarter years; after Blair, that's what it's returned to.

    In a bold case of implying correlation=causation, I note that the drop back to a short tenure after the end of Blair coincided with the invention of Twitter.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,023
    edited July 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    darkage said:

    Regarding heat, I live in a poorly insulated old house with solid walls and large, deep rooms. It is pleasantly cool all the time. No need/desire at all for air con.

    The most difficult thing for us Brits, myself included, is resisting the temptation to throw open all the windows the moment the sun comes out on a hot day. The Italians have it right, keeping their homes dark, airless and gloomy during the day so that they can better sleep at night.
    Open windows at night, then shut and draw blinds in the day.
    Pretty much.

    But ideally you want external blinds - internal blinds lets part of the solar heat past the 2G or 3G windows, and some of it gets trapped inside.

    External blinds can be good, as can external nearly transparent solar films. The posh solution is colour changing 'Sageglass", but that is £1k per sqm -ish.

    Personally I am still planning a deep veranda on the S side of my house.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Explained: How the Tory leadership election will be run.

    A bit like Squid Games, but more brutal.


    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1546772540009373696
This discussion has been closed.